Why are so many women into the turtles

[Davetello]

I really hope I won't be destroyed for asking this question, but I've noticed that there is an unusually high number of females on this forum. Compare it to sites like comic vine, comic book resources etc which are hugely male-dominated.

I'm happy about this, as the more the merrier, and the wider variety of people the merrier, but I was wondering why this is. Some people might say it's because the turtles are seen as more 'kiddy' than Marvel or DC, but I find that hugely demeaning and intellectually insulting towards women. Some of the most intelligent posters on the forum seem to be women, particularly academically speaking. There are a few women on this forum who seem to have a major academic background. I won't name them but it's pretty obvious who one or two of them are.

So what's the reason(s)? Why do the turtles attract more females than Batman or the Avengers etc?

[PangolinFeets]

I feel like I probably like it for a lot of the same reasons most guys do. Why do you like it?

[Davetello]

I feel like I probably like it for a lot of the same reasons most guys do. Why do you like it?

I'd have to write an essay longer than my uni dissertation to explain properly - and I just can't be bothered at this moment in time since it's only 7 am.

Most of it boils down to the family themes, as well as my love for clandestine ninja clans and street level battles. I love Daredevil as well.

[PangolinFeets]

I'd have to write an essay longer than my uni dissertation to explain properly - and I just can't be bothered at this moment in time.

Most of it boils down to the family themes, as well as my love for clandestine ninja clans and street level battles. I love Daredevil as well.

Lol, that's what I figured. It's a big question to ask, but I feel like the answers would be basically the same for anyone from anyone.
There's action, drama, emphasis on family, dealing with being outcast, relatable personalities... TMNT is full of universally appealing themes.

It's not the only fandom I'm into, but at the moment it's my favorite. I'm a long-time fan of X-Men for a lot of the same reasons.

[Davetello]

Lol, that's what I figured. It's a big question to ask, but I feel like the answers would be basically the same for anyone from anyone.
There's action, drama, emphasis on family, dealing with being outcast, relatable personalities... TMNT is full of universally appealing themes.

It's not the only fandom I'm into, but at the moment it's my favorite. I'm a long-time fan of X-Men for a lot of the same reasons.

That's true, it has a very wide set of qualities which appeal to a wide variety of people. But the same can be said of other franchises which are male dominated.

I suppose we could extend this to ask why anime is so popular with girls and women? In fact, it seems that the majority of anime viewers are female.

[PangolinFeets]

That's true, it has a very wide set of qualities which appeal to a wide variety of people. But the same can be said of other franchises which are male dominated.

I suppose we could extend this to ask why anime is so popular with girls and women? In fact, it seems that the majority of anime viewers are female.

I wouldn't be able to answer that. I'm not a fan of anime.
Perhaps the nature of the TMNT fandom is more accepting to women? Perhaps it was popularized by a cartoon which took the world by storm, basically turning the characters into household names so it was simple to ease into.
I guess I'm the wrong person to ask, because I'm involved in a lot of fandoms/communities that are male-dominated like the FGC, MtG, Kaiju, etc. And I find them just as appealing.

I kinda just like well-written, fun characters....and big stompy monsters.

[Davetello]

I wouldn't be able to answer that. I'm not a fan of anime.
Perhaps the nature of the TMNT fandom is more accepting to women? Perhaps it was popularized by a cartoon which took the world by storm, basically turning the characters into household names so it was simple to ease into.
I guess I'm the wrong person to ask, because I'm involved in a lot of fandoms/communities that are male-dominated like the FGC, MtG, Kaiju, etc. And I find them just as appealing.

I kinda just like well-written, fun characters....and big stompy monsters.

Fair enough. I can understand why women care for the property, it's just a nice departure to see a forum which seems almost 50/50 split in terms of gender.

I don't know what any of those acronyms stand for though.

I am in a minority in some fandoms myself - I'm a male who watches Once Upon A Time. And I really enjoy it too, and make no apologies.

[CyberCubed]

A few of them are in it for the more bizarre reasons, like pairing the Turtles up with their brothers. Don't go to deviantart whatever you do, you don't want to see drawings of Leo kissing Raph or nonsense like that.

*shudders*

[Davetello]

A few of them are in it for the more bizarre reasons, like pairing the Turtles up with their brothers. Don't go to deviantart whatever you do, you don't want to see drawings of Leo kissing Raph or nonsense like that.

*shudders*

As soon as I saw you had posted I knew that laughs were imminent.

[PangolinFeets]

A few of them are in it for the more bizarre reasons, like pairing the Turtles up with their brothers. Don't go to deviantart whatever you do, you don't want to see drawings of Leo kissing Raph or nonsense like that.

*shudders*

You know, I didn't even know that was a thing until I made the horrific mistake of googling "TMNT Slash Fanart" trying to find a cool IDW Slash-themed wallpaper...
Yea... I'll have to live without a beefy Slash wallpaper.

[Davetello]

You know, I didn't even know that was a thing until I made the horrific mistake of googling "TMNT Slash Fanart" trying to find a cool IDW Slash-themed wallpaper...
Yea... I'll have to live without a beefy Slash wallpaper.

Google "The Slut from Channel Six".

[PangolinFeets]

Google "The Slut from Channel Six".

I'm good....

[CyberCubed]

I also notice most female fans don't like April, and I'm talking any incarnation of her. 80's April, 4kids April, Nick April...I remember talking with them when those shows were airing.

Their opinion on April was always, "Eh" or "I don't like her much."

Kinda odd since April is supposed to be aimed at female fans in every incarnation, yet female fans don't care for her.

[Davetello]

I'm good....

:):):):):):):):):):)

[Refractive Reflections]

A few of them are in it for the more bizarre reasons, like pairing the Turtles up with their brothers. Don't go to deviantart whatever you do, you don't want to see drawings of Leo kissing Raph or nonsense like that.

*shudders*
As soon as I saw you had posted I knew that laughs were imminent.

To add to that area, I discovered another reason (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?p=1266005#post1266005) why a few women would be infatuated with the Turtles also. :lol:

[IndigoErth]

I dunno, it's kind of like answering that question for why I like anything else that I do. I just do? I agree it's probably for a lot of the same reasons. Without that human man/woman part in the way as a factor to relate to we're just free to see them for their varying personalities, how they live their lives together, and relate to them on those deeper levels.

Granted I'm probably not the best to be able to make comparisons since I was never really into any other 'superhero' stuff.

It's just funny to me though that I relate a billion times more to a mutated male talking turtle than I ever would to any superhero woman with superpowers. These guys are just special like that. :D

And no, I don't think because it's "kiddieish." I was a kid when I first got hooked on them, they were fun kid stuff back then. But my like of them is a different perspective and level of respect now. The Turtles themselves have continued to grow over the years as admirable characters worthy of more respect than they tend to get from the general public.




A few of them are in it for the more bizarre reasons, like pairing the Turtles up with their brothers. Don't go to deviantart whatever you do, you don't want to see drawings of Leo kissing Raph or nonsense like that.

*shudders*
And the one who brings that creepy stuff and those sites up the most around here is...

Deviantart is not a bad site, in fact there are a lot of awesomely talented people on there....you just have to avoid looking for stuff you don't want to see.

Kinda odd since April is supposed to be aimed at female fans in every incarnation, yet female fans don't care for her.
Well then your view on that may be just as mistaken as the creator's. People who think "how do we attract female viewers - just stuck a woman into the mix" are not trying hard enough. Maybe I know enough real like women and have spent a lifetime as one that I don't really need a fictional one to try to relate to. I don't dislike her, but she's never been interesting to me and don't relate to her personality. Perhaps had there been more woman around all the time there might have been one I related to more.

[Candy Kappa]

Because it's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[Davetello]

To add to that area, I discovered another reason (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?p=1266005#post1266005) why a few women would be infatuated with the Turtles also. :lol:


:lol: Had no idea that turtles were hung like horses.

I dunno, it's kind of like answering that question for why I like anything else that I do. I just do? I agree it's probably for a lot of the same reasons. Without that human man/woman part in the way as a factor to relate to we're just free to see them for their varying personalities, how they live their lives together, and relate to them on those deeper level.

Granted I'm probably not the best to be able to make comparisons since I was never really into any other 'superhero' stuff.

It's just funny to me though that I relate a billion times more to a mutated male talking turtle than I ever would to any superhero woman with superpowers. These guys are just special like that. :D

And no, I don't think because it's "kiddieish." I was a kid when I first got hooked on them, they were fun kid stuff back then. But my like of them is a different perspective and level of respect now. The Turtles themselves have continued to grow over the years as admirable characters worthy of more respect than they tend to get from the general public.





And the one who brings that creepy stuff and those sites up the most around here is...

Deviantart is not a bad site, in fact there are a lot of awesomely talented people on there....you just have to avoid looking for stuff you don't want to see.


Well then you're view on that may be just as mistaken as the creator's. People who think "how do we attract female viewers - just stuck a woman into the mix" are not trying hard enough. Maybe I know enough real like women and have spent a lifetime as one that I don't really need a fictional one to try to relate to.

Good post. I'd love to add to it, but I'm seriously flagging in terms of tiredness.

Because it's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Brief and 100% accurate. I like it :)

[CyberCubed]

Well then your view on that may be just as mistaken as the creator's. People who think "how do we attract female viewers - just stuck a woman into the mix" are not trying hard enough. Maybe I know enough real like women and have spent a lifetime as one that I don't really need a fictional one to try to relate to. I don't dislike her, but she's never been interesting to me and don't relate to her personality.

Well naturally the TMNT are the stars, but April is there for female fans to identify themselves with.

Which is why I find it bizarre so many females don't care for her. And I'm talking about all the different versions of her, 80's, 4kids, Nick, Mirage, etc.

I can understand not liking one version of April but to not like any of them?

[Davetello]

Well naturally the TMNT are the stars, but April is there for female fans to identify themselves with.

Which is why I find it bizarre so many females don't care for her. And I'm talking about all the different versions of her, 80's, 4kids, Nick, Mirage, etc.

I can understand not liking one version of April but to not like any of them?

It's pretty simplistic to assume that a female is in the show simply for women to identify with. That's not the primary purpose of female characters in fiction, & it's pretty patronising to suggest that it is.

I'd bet that women identify far more with the guys than April - see the personalities of the likes of IndigoErth and Warhorse, who feel that Leo and Raph respectively are kindred spirits. Two people being the same gender doesn't necessariy mean that they share anything in common.

[PangolinFeets]

Well naturally the TMNT are the stars, but April is there for female fans to identify themselves with.

Which is why I find it bizarre so many females don't care for her. And I'm talking about all the different versions of her, 80's, 4kids, Nick, Mirage, etc.

I can understand not liking one version of April but to not like any of them?
In nearly every version of the turtles, April is the one who needs to be saved. I don't identify with that.
I've always identified more with Donnie's empirical nature and support status. He's the medic, the engineer, and the defense.

I probably like the IDW and Mirage April the most because they're scientists, for the most part.

[Shark_Blade]

Because they want the D...


Donnie.

[Netkeeper]

I don't think this forum has "so many" women. Women make up about half the world's population, and I don't think those same proportions carry over to this forum's active userbase.

Just some food for thought.

[Luckyday]

For me, I feel that there's more to them then meets the eye. Once you got me convince me that they're real and write them as believable people, it becomes hard to go back to thinking them as 2 dimensional constructs with a A.I of a chat bot.

[Prowler]

Never noticed such a thing. Also, everyone is on the internet these days so it's not really surprising that there's some women who are big Ninja Turtles fans in this place.

You mentioned that many women are into anime... well anime is a medium. There's plenty of anime genres, including a couple that target girls/women.

And speaking of anime, Sailor Moon has quite a sizable male fanbase. I'm a guy and I do like Sailor Moon. By CyberCubed's logic, my favorite character is probably Tuxedo Mask or any other male in the series... well it's not.

[plastroncafe]

I know this is going to come as a shock, but...

Because Women/Girls are people, and people like things that they like.

Feel free to clutch your pearls now.

(Also, a minor pet peeve of mine: the words you're looking for are women and girls, not females. )

[Davetello]

I know this is going to come as a shock, but...

Because Women/Girls are people, and people like things that they like.

Feel free to clutch your pearls now.

(Also, a minor pet peeve of mine: the words you're looking for are women and girls, not females. )

:lol:

I like how every one of your posts is laced with condescension. I've actually been very complimentary towards women in the OP, so don't play the sexist card.

I used the term 'females' for some variety. I also used the word women. I rarely use the word girls, because any female (sorry) over 16 is not a girl.

As an aside, I thought it was a bit strange that you said you'd be interested to hear my thoughts on Gotham Central after I read it...then when I did read the series and offered a few sentences, you neglected to reply.

[Davetello]

I don't think this forum has "so many" women. Women make up about half the world's population, and I don't think those same proportions carry over to this forum's active userbase.

Just some food for thought.

My point was that comic books and their animated/film spin-offs tend to be male dominated - proportions don't matter in that respect. Half the world is male as well, as you imply - I still wouldn't expect to see a 50/50 split on a make-up or fashion forum.

Women are unusually highly represented on here. Which is a good thing.

Never noticed such a thing. Also, everyone is on the internet these days so it's not really surprising that there's some women who are big Ninja Turtles fans in this place.

You mentioned that many women are into anime... well anime is a medium. There's plenty of anime genres, including a couple that target girls/women.

And speaking of anime, Sailor Moon has quite a sizable male fanbase. I'm a guy and I do like Sailor Moon. By CyberCubed's logic, my favorite character is probably Tuxedo Mask or any other male in the series... well it's not.


Compared to places like comic vine there are a fvck ton of women on here. It's refreshing, but that doesn't mean it isn't somewhat of an anomaly.

[Shiro Kame]

I also notice most female fans don't like April, and I'm talking any incarnation of her. 80's April, 4kids April, Nick April...I remember talking with them when those shows were airing.

Their opinion on April was always, "Eh" or "I don't like her much."

Kinda odd since April is supposed to be aimed at female fans in every incarnation, yet female fans don't care for her.

Yeah...I'm female, and I like this character (when she's not being a damsal in distress...what? After 15+ kidnapping, you'd think she'd learn how to properly defend herself...). I don't really get why most female fan dislike her.

[plastroncafe]

:lol:

I like how every one of your posts is laced with condescension. I've actually been very complimentary towards women in the OP, so don't play the sexist card.

I used the term 'females' for some variety. I also used the word women. I rarely use the word girls, because any female (sorry) over 16 is not a girl.

As an aside, I thought it was a bit strange that you said you'd be interested to hear my thoughts on Gotham Central after I read it...then when I did read the series and offered a few sentences, you neglected to reply.

You're accusing me of playing the sexist card, when you're the one asking the board to justify why women like a thing. My replies are condescending because when faced with condescending questions I tend to answer in kind.
It's great that you're being polite, but the premise of your thread here is objectionable.

Here's the problem the way you're using female.
"Any female over 16..." any female what?
Female chinchillas? Female narwhals? Female Australopithecus afarensis?

You find it strange that it's possible I haven't seen your response?

My point was that comic books and their animated/film spin-offs tend to be male dominated - proportions don't matter in that respect. Half the world is male as well, as you imply - I still wouldn't expect to see a 50/50 split on a make-up or fashion forum.


Why not?
Could it be some sort of ubiquitous gender stereotyping leading you to make those conclusion?



Compared to places like comic vine there are a fvck ton of women on here. It's refreshing, but that doesn't mean it isn't somewhat of an anomaly.

The anomaly isn't that women are into things like comics and video games and Sci-Fi, the anomaly is that we're not equally distributed online, and that's 100% due to fanboy gatekeeping.

I can think of at least 10 friends I have elsewhere online who are as into TMNT as I am, but won't come within arms reach of this place because of the sexist treatment they've experienced here. They're honestly shocked that I "waste my time" there, because they wouldn't. Fan spaces are toxic for women...usually.
So we make our own elsewhere, which are then mocked repeatedly back in the fanspaces that drove us out to begin with, which only galvanizes why we left in the first place.

So yeah...I'm tetchy when yet again I'm asked why I'm here. No matter how politely the question is framed.

[Prowler]

Plastroncafe: You honestly don't understand that he's referring to humans when he says "female TMNT fans?"

[Luckyday]

You find it strange that it's possible I haven't seen your response?
.

I think he means don't you check your visitor messages. I remember sending some messages on there a while ago but you don't seem respond.:-?

[Davetello]

You're accusing me of playing the sexist card, when you're the one asking the board to justify why women like a thing. My replies are condescending because when faced with condescending questions I tend to answer in kind.
It's great that you're being polite, but the premise of your thread here is objectionable.

You're taking a thread which is intended to say how refreshing it is to see women feeling confident enough to post here, and twisting it into something which it's not. Your previous history with misogynists is colouring your judgement here - I'm not them, don't worry.

I don't see how it's condescending. You've taken it way too personally. I had a feeling someone would see it as a "pat on the head" type thread...a sort of "awww isn't it nice that these women are joining in with us male experts now?". However, that's really not the way it's intended. It's not meant in that spirit.

I had a feeling you'd be the one to take issue with this, due to your feminist views as well as the fact that you're one of the educated women I refer to in the OP.

Here's the problem the way you're using female.
"Any female over 16..." any female what?
Female chinchillas? Female narwhals? Female Australopithecus afarensis?

You find it strange that it's possible I haven't seen your response?

Come on, don't be so pedantic. We don't have to get into a major sociological debate about the meanings and implications of the word 'female'. You know in what context it was meant. You're getting upset over nothing here and actively looking to take offence.

Well, that's possible. I'm not offended, I just found it strange that you wanted to know my opinions, then never bothered discussing said opinions with me. However, that's your decision. If, on the other hand, you genuinely missed the comments then fair play.



Why not?
Could it be some sort of ubiquitous gender stereotyping leading you to make those conclusion?

The anomaly isn't that women are into things like comics and video games and Sci-Fi, the anomaly is that we're not equally distributed online, and that's 100% due to fanboy gatekeeping.

I can think of at least 10 friends I have elsewhere online who are as into TMNT as I am, but won't come within arms reach of this place because of the sexist treatment they've experienced here. They're honestly shocked that I "waste my time" there, because they wouldn't. Fan spaces are toxic for women...usually.

So yeah...I'm tetchy when yet again I'm asked why I'm here. No matter how politely the question is framed.

Come on...it's gender stereotyping that I think a site about women's fashion or make-up wouldn't be a 50/50 male-female split? Let's not take things to their extremes.

As for all the stuff about men restricting access to this site and others, I completely agree that that happens on websites and that it is not acceptable. Comic vine appears to be a rougher forum than here, so I will concede that point to you - that perhaps women feel too intimidated to post there and that they don't want their opinions to be demeaned simply because they're women. The same thing happens on soccer forums. Men don't like their little cliques being interrupted by women, because they find it intimidating.

What sexist treatment did they receive? I can only speak for my time as a regular poster here (which is about fifteen months, save a period where I had a break), but I haven't seen much sexism in that time. In fact, women here tend to be pretty well received and respected. Many of my favourite posters here are women and I'm sure that goes for many of the other guys as well.

"So we make our own elsewhere, which are then mocked repeatedly back in the fanspaces that drove us out to begin with, which only galvanizes why we left in the first place."

Finally, I hope you don't consider me a misogynist.

[TMNachoT]

I´m an administrator of a latin american group in Facebook and I´have seen a lot of female members.

All of them like the turtles, one version more than others or maybe some don´t like one specific version.

Depending of the age, the subjects are different, like, 18 years girls and older talk about episodes, movies, like giving their opinions and stuff. Younger ones talk silly things like " i love Leo" or "Rafa is mine" or stuff like that. :lol::lol::lol:

[Davetello]

Yeah...I'm female, and I like this character (when she's not being a damsal in distress...what? After 15+ kidnapping, you'd think she'd learn how to properly defend herself...). I don't really get why most female fan dislike her.

I sincerely hope that plastroncafe tells you off for your repeated use of the world 'female' to describe a human woman, like she did me. But seeing as I'm a man and you're a woman, i'm thinking that's unlikely to happen.

:lol:

[Luckyday]

To be fair, using term "females" instead of "women" feels too clinical and sterilizing in my opinion. However I don't mind the term "female" as adjective with the word "fans" because that seems to applied that to fans could be anything: gay, lesbian, black, straight, asian and etc.

Again that's just how I feel. :lol:

[Davetello]

To be fair, using term "females" instead of "women" feels too clinical and sterilizing in my opinion. However I don't mind the term "female" as adjective with the word "fans" because that seems to applied that to fans could be anything: gay, lesbian, black, straight, asian and etc.

Again that's just how I feel. :lol:

That's fair enough. But I also used the term 'male' yet she didn't pick up on that. That's evidence of her hypocrisy on these matters.

[plastroncafe]

You're taking a thread which is intended to say how refreshing it is to see women feeling confident enough to post here, and twisting it into something which it's not. Your previous history with misogynists is colouring your judgement here - I'm not them, don't worry.

I'm not twisting, I'm pointing out that the very nature of your question is condescending. It shouldn't be refreshing that I, as a woman, am confident enough to post here, because I shouldn't need confidence to post here.

The women I know who don't come here? It's not because they're not confident, it's because they have better things to do with their time than fight an uphill battle against gender stereotypes, creepers, and gatekeepers.

You're right though, dealing with misogynists has colored my world view, and that's not a bad thing. That's a survival tactic. That's something I'm proud of. I'm not worried that you're a misogynist. I'm not worried at all, actually. If I actually worried about every misogynist on a comic board...well, I wouldn't come to them, is what.

I don't see how it's condescending. You've taken it was too personally. I had a feeling someone would see it as a "pat on the head" type thread...a sort of "awww isn't it nice that these women are joining in with us male experts now?". However, that's really not the way it's intended. It's not meant in that spirit.

I'm telling you how it's condescending. Your question rests on the assumption that women shouldn't be here in the first place. That it's abnormal that they are, and you're asking for justification for why we like the things we like.

I had a feeling you'd be the one to take issue with this, due to your feminist views as well as the fact that you're one of the educated women I refer to in the OP.

Guilty as charged.

Come on, don't be so pedantic. We don't have to get into a major sociological debate about the meanings and implications of the word 'female'. You know in what context it was meant. You're getting upset over nothing here and actively looking to take offence.

First, I did say "minor petpeeve."
Second, as a good rule going forward: Don't tell people what they can and can't be offended by. It's dismissive.

Well, that's possible. I'm not offended, I just found it strange that you wanted to know my opinions, then never bothered discussing said opinions with me. However, that's your decision. If, on the other hand, you genuinely missed the comments then fair play.


If you'd like to know exactly what's going on in my life that would keep me from answering messages, all you have to do is ask.

I've moved house for the first time in 15 years, I'm taking a graduate level class in statistics, my grandmother is dying in the ICU, I haven't seen my boyfriend in over a month, I'm in a play that goes up next week, oh and work is slamming me to the floor because our three-year certification on all of our diagnostic magnets is coming up. Plus I've been sick and attended the NYCC last weekend.

All of this is in the last 45 days.
So, I've been busy.

Come on...it's gender stereotyping that I think a site about women's fashion or make-up wouldn't be a 50/50 male-female split? Let's not take things to their extremes.

It's gender stereotyping that says men can't like fashion and makeup, and girls can't like comics and video games. It's firmly upon these stereotypes that the question du jour sits.

As for all the stuff about men restricting access to this site and others, I completely agree that that happens on websites and that it is not acceptable. Comic vine appears to be a rougher forum than here, so I will concede that point to you - that perhaps women feel too intimidated to post there and that they don't want their opinions to be demeaned simply because they're women. The same thing happens on soccer forums. Men don't like their little cliques being interrupted by women, because they find it intimidating.

Or maybe they just don't want to deal with the bull$#!+.

What sexist treatment did they receive? I can only speak for my time as a regular poster here (which is about fifteen months, save a period where I had a break), but I haven't seen much sexism in that time. In fact, women here tend to be pretty well received and respected. Many of my favourite posters here are women and I'm sure that goes for many of the other guys as well.

Finally, I hope you don't consider me a misogynist.

You'd have to ask them, I didn't get specifics. But this place has a reputation that will take a whole lot of change and time to dispel.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a misogynist.

[Davetello]

I will reply to that after I rest. I've been awake for over 25 hours and won't be sleeping for another 5 or 6, then playing soccer. So that will be tomorrow, at some point i.e. probably 24 hours from now.

All I really care about replying to for now is the most important thing you said in that post - that your gran is dying. I'm really sorry to hear that :( I've been in the same position, and I hope she's at least comfortable to some extent. You shouldn't be alone right now.

[plastroncafe]

I will reply to that after I rest. I've been awake for over 25 hours and won't be sleeping for another 5 or 6, then playing soccer. So that will be tomorrow, at some point i.e. probably 24 hours from now.

All I really care about replying to for now is the most important thing you said in that post - that your gran is dying. I'm really sorry to hear that :( I've been in the same position, and I hope she's at least comfortable to some extent. You shouldn't be alone right now.

I appreciate that. We weren't close, so it's more family upheaval and dealing with the estranged, and all that goes with that...than anything else.

But I do appreciate the sentiment. Thank you.

[Davetello]

I appreciate that. We weren't close, so it's more family upheaval and dealing with the estranged, and all that goes with that...than anything else.

But I do appreciate the sentiment. Thank you.

You're welcome.

[Luckyday]

@plastroncafe
Before I say anything, I sorry bugging you about the messages. Didn't know how hectic it was currently so again sorry.


I remember the huge cluster **** that was the Ciro interview on Shellshocked podcast and how it became uncalled for both ends. But never the less it was startled to hear him say that we don't need more female character because we have the bad girl and the good girl. That implies a lack of imagination to me.

I understand where you're coming from, plastroncafe. You have been on this forum for a long time and you post a lot of stuff and you've probably read "Why women like TMNT?" at least a hundred times so just tedious to see the topic pop again and again. Like why is this still such a huge surprise?

[Davetello]

I remember the huge cluster **** that was the Ciro interview on Shellshocked podcast and how it became uncalled for both ends. But never the less it was startled to hear him say that we don't need more female character because we have the bad girl and the good girl.

I understand where you're coming from, plastroncafe. You have been on this forum for a long time and you post a lot of stuff and you've probably read "Why women like TMNT?" at least a hundred times so just tedious to see the topic pop again and again. Like why is this still such a huge surprise?

To be fair, I mean it in a nice way - other guys were saying it in a d!icksh manner. My question was more about why do so many women like the turtles in comparison to other comic franchises...not why do women like the turtles full stop. However, plastron has made the salient point that there would probably be far more woman posters on comic vine etc if it wasn't for the fanboy gatekeeping there, so I'm willing to concede that I may have jumped the gun there, and that if that's true the premise of this thread collapses like a house of cards.

This thread can only have merit if TMNT is more popular amongst women than other comic properties - and plastron has made me aware that that may not be the case.

[Luckyday]

Maybe that will change in time. There does seem to more a female fan presence here then it was when I've first started here.

[neatoman]

I was relieved that this thread was not about Turtlecest, thank god it's not about Turtlecest.

Anyway, maybe women like that it's a more bizarre concept than for example Batman? Batman may be a really silly concept, a rich guy who decided that the best way to combat crime was not decrease poverty or anything like that, but rather violent actions with bat-shaped James Bond gadgets. However, it still falls into typical hero-fantasy. But TMNT? TMNT is so out there. Mutant turtles who are also teenaged ninjas? That's way weirder than a guy in a bat costume.

Another thing that seems to have a large female fanbase would be Yu-Gi-Oh. A teenage boy with silly hair who shares a body with a pharaoh who gives him dark powers, together they fight through ancient demons and evil corporations using trading card games, all in the name of friendship. How much stranger can you get?

So maybe women just prefer weirdness when it's way over the top? Then again, I'm a dude and I like way over the top weirdness. So I don't really know what women like.

[Candy Kappa]

I know this is going to come as a shock, but...

Because Women/Girls are people, and people like things that they like.

This is basically the only answer this thread needs. People like stuff regardless of their gender.

[Metalwolf]

My theory (and I'm saying this as a female myself) is that TMNT doesn't seem to give off as many of the negative tropes that seem to be dominant in many other 'male orientated' comic book franchises. A lot of the other comics don't seem to portray women er, respectfully, and very often they are drawn up to be wearing skimpy clothes and overly sexual. It's also the feel that they give off, as it comes off as more of a singular male power fantasy then it does about the character(s), which sends out the subtle vibe that women aren't really wanted. That, I admit, can feel very discouraging to even me, and I am one of the more laid back ones. And if that bothers me, how much more discouraging could it be to others?

(Conversely, the cartoon versions of these seem to do quite well with females, since they focus more on character. It seems to be mainly the comic book versions that have the negative issues.)

But TMNT doesn't have that aspect it seems, it's more about the Turtles and family. It has themes and characters that anybody can relate to, and gives off a giant 'Welcome' sign that makes many feel at home. I also notice this welcoming in others like Transformers and Legend of Zelda, and I'm sure that there are others. They all seem to be more character and story focused, rather then as I mentioned before, a male power fantasy.

[Donnieangelo]

A few of them are in it for the more bizarre reasons, like pairing the Turtles up with their brothers. Don't go to deviantart whatever you do, you don't want to see drawings of Leo kissing Raph or nonsense like that.

*shudders*
I know that feel, bro.

And people tend to draw them with tails even when they are not supposed to. (The Mirage turtles already have them.)

[ssjup81]

I became a fan because of the OT as a kid. The bad humor drew me in as well as the characters themselves. Why I still like it is beyond me, but I still want to say it's because the series is more character driven.I also notice most female fans don't like April, and I'm talking any incarnation of her. 80's April, 4kids April, Nick April...I remember talking with them when those shows were airing.

Their opinion on April was always, "Eh" or "I don't like her much."

Kinda odd since April is supposed to be aimed at female fans in every incarnation, yet female fans don't care for her.I don't dislike her character, but I've never found her to be interesting. And as for relating to her, that's a myth. Just because you have a male or female character doesn't mean that the male fans will automatically relate to the male character or vice-versa. But anyway, April has always been boring to me. I like aspects of her character, but not enough to favor her. Maybe OT April is my favorite given her "I WILL get this story out, even if I am putting myself in danger!" attitude like most real reporters...and I was strongly interested in journalism, but never went into it because of my parents.

Never mind, scratch that. My fav April is movie 1 April.

Because it's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.Ok, I'll use this as my answer! lol

I know that feel, bro.

And people tend to draw them with tails even when they are not supposed to. (The Mirage turtles already have them.)Whats wrong with tails? They're turtles. Turtles have tails. It's easy to see why they didn't use them in the cartoons, though.

Do they have tails in the IDW comic?

[turtlefanforever]

same reasons anyone is a fan of it probably. I don't see it as a problem. Never met a true female turtle fan in person though. Seen many online though.

[neatoman]

Do they have tails in the IDW comic?

No, not even Eastman draws them with tails for that series. And I agree, turtles do have tails, there's nothing wrong with depicting them with tails.

[Hannurdock]

Family, honour, martial arts and battles. What's not to love? I had ninja turtle toys as a child along with barbie dolls and my little ponies.

I used to hang out with the boys and play Ninja Turtles for hours. I never got bored.

Now, as a woman, I appreciate the loyal and fierce devotion to family that is the Ninja Turtle trademark all the more.

[Netkeeper]

What's happening isn't that "so many women are into the turtles", it's that societal views of gender are being challenged and it's become more and more acceptable for people [of any gender] to break out of those roles without being insulted or ridiculed.

I will not go into detail about this, but I did experience a lot of this as a kid. I was slammed for liking things that "didn't fit my gender". This still happens, don't misunderstand, but it's happening less and less to the point where people are starting to just like what they want. As it should be.

That said, Dave, I think one of the reasons why TMNT has a larger percentage of women in its fanbase is because it's never been nearly as toxic to women as other comic-based fandoms are. While TMNT's fandom still feels very much like a comic fandom [to me; someone who has admittedly never been into them and will not touch them because of their fanbases] its razors are dull and not sharpened.

For example. There isn't the same amount of elitism being thrown around in this fandom like I've seen from Marvel or DC's comics -- people in the TMNT fandom that slam people for not preferring or not reading the Mirage comics are in a supreme minority. This isn't true for many other comic fandoms I've seen around. If they see a woman in "their territory" they don't treat her as an equal, they don't believe she's read the comics even if she has, and quiz her just to see if she's "fake", etc. Fortunately I have not seen that kind of behaviour here [though I wouldn't be surprised if it's happened].

Half the world is male as well, as you imply - I still wouldn't expect to see a 50/50 split on a make-up or fashion forum.
I did not imply that. I said about half the population is female. About half the population is male. There are those that do not fall under male or female as well, and they make up their own percentage. Gender is not a binary, and it is not split 50/50.

[snake]

Probably because it has things for both men and women to enjoy.

[HotNunchuckFury]

I was worried when I first starting reading this thread as to what you were getting at, but then I realised it wasn't a complaint or anything negative at all in fact, but merely an observation that you were genuinely curious about. I didn't take offense at the question, and if anything the post made me feel welcomed (I'm still relatively new here).

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me the most appealing factor of the franchise is the personalities of the main characters and the relationships between them (particularly the family aspect), but then that's generally the main reason I enjoy any of the comics/films/TV shows that I'm into. Of course the ninja action, childhood nostalgia and stories of aliens, mutants and villains all add extra fun to the mix!

As for April, I've always liked her (except for Nick April, can't stand her tbh), but she's not the character I relate to most, not by a long shot. I identify more with Mikey and Raph.

My theory (and I'm saying this as a female myself) is that TMNT doesn't seem to give off as many of the negative tropes that seem to be dominant in many other 'male orientated' comic book franchises. A lot of the other comics don't seem to portray women er, respectfully, and very often they are drawn up to be wearing skimpy clothes and overly sexual. It's also the feel that they give off, as it comes off as more of a singular male power fantasy then it does about the character(s), which sends out the subtle vibe that women aren't really wanted. That, I admit, can feel very discouraging to even me, and I am one of the more laid back ones. And if that bothers me, how much more discouraging could it be to others?

(Conversely, the cartoon versions of these seem to do quite well with females, since they focus more on character. It seems to be mainly the comic book versions that have the negative issues.)

But TMNT doesn't have that aspect it seems, it's more about the Turtles and family. It has themes and characters that anybody can relate to, and gives off a giant 'Welcome' sign that makes many feel at home. I also notice this welcoming in others like Transformers and Legend of Zelda, and I'm sure that there are others. They all seem to be more character and story focused, rather then as I mentioned before, a male power fantasy.

Think you've hit on something for me there. I was a big fan of the X-men cartoon growing up, but I have avoided the comics because the way the women are portrayed is so off putting. There are plenty of other comics I enjoy that don't portray women in this way though, thankfully.

[Luckyday]

Maybe it helps that the turtles aren't human because then the writers aren't so fixed on making romantic love interests that will give away to the male gaze.

[IndigoErth]

For a not so serious answer...

The Turtles are like... If you could have a really awesome human-like best friend AND an adorable puppy all at the same time, but then the puppy is more like a turtle... that's the Turtles.

:P:D:lol:

Yeah that just kinda happened in my head, so there it is.

People like, look like turtles, and loveable like a puppy...

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

Females like the TMNT because turtles are cute without being smarmy like unicorns or bunnies?

[Coola Yagami]

Girls love TMNT cause it's TMNT, same as us guys. Some girls look beyond the stereotypical pink fluff and want someone awesome like the Turtles.

And Cyber, don't blame women for the weird fanart. Let's not forget tons of guys also draw the Turtles nailing April, most of the time all 4 at once.

[PangolinFeets]

I posted this elsewhere, but its obviously more applicable to this discussion. These are the early gender/age stats for the viewers of my NYCC TMNT panel videos.

http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Stephanie_Sanford/media/videodemos_zpsa6fd4ad9.png.html
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d24/Stephanie_Sanford/videodemos_zpsa6fd4ad9.png
Note: Don't take these too seriously. Its absolutely not an accurate sampling of the typical viewer and this only applies to the show. Its just interesting demographic info on who's excited about upcoming infom

[MsMarvelDuckie]

As both a woman AND a long-time fan of comics in general, I feel like I may have a unique perspective on this subject. First I will say right off that there is NOTHING condescending or sexist or in any way offensive about the premise of this thread- it's only one's own personal biases and experiences that would make it seem so. The question is genuinely interesting from a comic-fan's perspective, actually. TMNT has never felt as much like a normal "superhero" franchise, IMHO, as the characters aren't even human, much less stereotyped by their gender, in most cases.

Even April has never acted or felt like the "damsel in distress" that one sees so often in these types of stories. Truth be told, as a female fan, I always liked her plucky, no-fear, no-nonsense attitude and her care and concern for a bunch of mutant "monsters" with whom she had very little in common! It just shows how much character she had (meaning compassion, loyalty, etc) as a person, which is something I think anyone could relate to. Likewise, the turtles themselves had ZERO reason to concern themselves with anything having to do with humans, but time and time again, they got involved in "human problems" simply because it was the right thing to do. I just really like that concept. And as an animal-lover, that appeals to me on several levels, particularly that of animals having feelings and concern for others, which is a subject of behavior that has always fascinated me- the turtles just exhibit it to a greater degree, because they actually understand it!

Secondly, I'd like to point out that I was once (and still am, unless my profile there is no longer active) not only a MEMBER of the Marvel boards, but a Moderator as well, and I can say that I NEVER saw the kind of fan-elitism along gender lines there that others seem to insist is the case. I don't know about Comic Vine or others, but it was never a problem there- us Mods saw to that. In fact, several of our most respected posters there (myself and at LEAST two other Mods included) were all women! So it surprises me to hear that this sort of thing goes on a lot on other forums- because it certainly was never a "thing" over there. Most of the posters there not only respected female fans, but were openly welcoming of them to the group. Haven't been over there for a few years, so it might have changed, but in the seven years or so that I Modded there, it wasn't.

I guess what it comes down to is perception. If you WANT to see gender stereotyping and elitism in a fandom, you will. Or perhaps there is some, but not as much as there once was. Legions of women fans flock to comic conventions these days, many of them dressed as their favorite characters, and I've heard of only a few RARE instances where the male fans or even creators view them with anything but appreciation and comaradery. As for female comic characters, they are being increasingly written as well-rounded PEOPLE, with their own problems, flaws, and lives. (Did you guys know that Ms. Marvel struggles with alcoholism just like Tony Stark? Or that Mary-Jane has on more than one occasion actually taken down one of Spidey's villains on her own? For that matter, so did his Aunt May! Ah, the power of oatmeal raison cookies..... ) They are also being written more and more by female comic writers, which helps greatly, too. And not just as romantic partners, either. And that's a good thing.

A large part of JMS's run on ASM focused on M-J's struggle to be taken seriously as an actress, rather than just a "pretty face" type role. He understood that women DO have their own issues and talents, that they are just as good as the male "heroes" they live beside, and it was refreshing to see women treated as strong independent characters. Peter David does the same thing. The point is, being a female fan should never be a reason to be shunned, shamed, ridiculed, or made to feel inferior in any way, especially in the 21st century. The only people left who still think that way are juvenile-minded mysoganists with their heads stuck firmly in the 1950's or earlier.

Also, Cubed- this is aimed JUST for you.... DeviantArt isn't JUST about T-cest or similar types of fans, but I'm sure that's all you've ever looked at there. There is plenty of non-T-cest or non-romantic stuff to be found there as well. However, I've been a member there for several years now, and I can honestly say that some of the very BEST TMNT fan-art I've seen is from the very people you seem to mock so much! Does it really matter if a piece of fan-art shows Leo and Raph kissing, as long as it's a genuinely GOOD picture of them? Heck, I've seen some truly AMAZING works, both of art and writing, from folks who are primarily into that sort of thing, and it doesn't bother me at all to see "brotherly love" taken to that level, as long as the art/writing is good and they are still in character! (Now, it's Inkbunny you guys REALLY have to watch for- that's where all the hard-core furries and T-cesters are.... But there are some good ones there, too. And no, I'm not one of them, I just don't mind seeing it as long as the art is decent.)

[IndigoErth]

I posted this elsewhere, but its obviously more applicable to this discussion. These are the early gender/age stats for the viewers of my NYCC TMNT panel videos.
So how likely is it ya think that a lot Apritello fans are in that 30% 18-24 group. lol

Most interesting I think though is that far off just barely visible sliver of women in the 65+ category. Right there... there's the grandmothers who are watching it with their grandkids and previously raised my generation of original TMNT show fans. :D

[PangolinFeets]

So how likely is it ya think that a lot Apritello fans are in that 30% 18-24 group. lol

Most interesting I think though is that far off just barely visible sliver of women in the 65+ category. Right there... there's the grandmothers who are watching it with their grandkids and previously raised my generation of original TMNT show fans. :D
I thought that was adorable too! Some TMNT granny is looking up NYCC info.
For the record, the videos were the Hun intro, the spirit quest preview, Bebop and Rocksteady's mutation, and the preview for next week's episode. No Apritello stuff there.

[Powder]

I wouldn't be too sure they're grandparents, I've seen a surprisingly large amount of older women in the fandom through Facebook & stuff.

[Jester]

Good characters?

[DarkFell]

We ladies like what we like, be it TMNT, MOTU, G.I. JOE, whatever. Cartoons are for anyone that enjoys watching them.
Good characters?
And lots of them.

[CyberCubed]

When I was a kid I never remember girls liking TMNT. I think that's where this topic stems from.

Girls didn't used to watch "boys cartoons" back then. Obviously this has changed over the years but back in the 80's and early 90's I don't think many girls watched action cartoons.

However with the rise of anime and tumblr/deviantart/livejournal girls have gotten themselves invested in shows that were previously boy-centric.

[DarkFell]

What timeline was this in Cubed? I watched TMNT with kids of both genders. We enjoyed it together and didn't see Turtles as a 'boys only cartoon'.

Most girls that I knew liked TMNT before Deviantart and Tumblr were twinkles in anybody's eyes.

[Pterobat]

There's no one answer. As they've been saying in this thread, women are individuals, and we all like the franchise for different reasons.

I've just loved it since I was a kid. I loved the mix of genres, and the presence of so many mutants / monsters. Nostalgia plays a role, too. I like the OT because it can be fun and funny, 2k3 because it's serious, Mirage when it's melancholy or particularly weird, Archie because of how far it took a kid's comic, and the first live-action movie because it's good.

I'm neutral towards April, depending on the incarnation, but Fred Wolf April gets on my nerves. No matter how they try to dress it up, she *is* the damsel in distress. I also dislike Fred Wolf Irma, who's basically an animated Cathy.

My favourite woman in the franchise is probably Quarry, though I wish she'd been presented as female from the start.

All my favourite characters are thoroughly unattractive, so I don't have crushes on/ship any of them. I don't begrude anyone who does with their own favourites, but don't blame slash or weird fandom stuff on there being women in it.

When I was a kid I never remember girls liking TMNT. I think that's where this topic stems from.

Girls didn't used to watch "boys cartoons" back then. Obviously this has changed over the years but back in the 80's and early 90's I don't think many girls watched action cartoons.

However with the rise of anime and tumblr/deviantart/livejournal girls have gotten themselves invested in shows that were previously boy-centric.

Previously. Riiiighhhht. Because a lot of us didn't watch the OT growing up, or anything. Probably not as many girls watched the OT, but to say that none of us did, and this is a recent phenomenon, is totally off-base, as this thread proves.

[CyberCubed]

I'm not speaking for all girls obviously, but you guys seriously don't remember back in the 80's and early 90's it was unusual for girls to like "boy things?" Its not like that with the modern generation of the 2000's, but it sure used to be like that.

When I was a kid if you saw a girl with a TMNT toy or a Batman figure or a Spiderman it was rare and unusual. They would always be in the Barbie or doll section instead. Girls playing videogames received the same unusual look back then, like, "You're a girl and you play videogames, really?"

I think it was the internet and the widespread culture of online fandom that let people see that there were millions of other girls just like them who could like "boys cartoons" and that's why its more widespread now. I mention deviantart, livejournal and tumblr specifically because its these things that let people share their interests easily on the internet with others.

[Refractive Reflections]

I'm neutral towards April, depending on the incarnation, but Fred Wolf April gets on my nerves. No matter how they try to dress it up, she *is* the damsel in distress. I also dislike Fred Wolf Irma, who's basically an animated Cathy.


Then I guess that makes every other non-combative civilian they saved in the series who snooped a little too close to the villains, a "damsel in distress" too, considering the many times they saved Vernon, Burne, Zack, Kerma...

[ssjup81]

When I was a kid I never remember girls liking TMNT. I think that's where this topic stems from.

Girls didn't used to watch "boys cartoons" back then. Obviously this has changed over the years but back in the 80's and early 90's I don't think many girls watched action cartoons.

However with the rise of anime and tumblr/deviantart/livejournal girls have gotten themselves invested in shows that were previously boy-centric.Step outside of your bubble, you may learn something.

Did you have any female friends as a kid? That's like saying no boy ever liked Jem and the Holograms or She-Ra (and there are adult males now who actually admit to having liked these shows as kids).

I watched the OT religiously until it stopped being shown in syndication (pre 1990) and until CBS in my area stopped airing Saturday morning cartoons (round about season 7, I think) and replaced it with news and Martha Stewart which annoyed the heck out of me. Other areas still had CBS Sat morn program, like in the cities around me.

I loved watching Batman TAS and used to rush to watch that. I liked watching the Superfriends. I loved Mighty Max! I loved Jonny Quest (yeah...60s show, but there was an 80s version too...liked the 60s version more).

In the 80s I liked Dangermouse. I used to watch Transformers, Voltron, GI Joe, etc. (although I didn't care for Transformers, GI Joe, or Voltron...I was kinda forced to watch those). lol Either way, I still watched them. Oh and Mr. T's cartoon, used to love that...although probably not too actiony.

Oh what about Swat Kats! That show was great! Spiderman TAS. Superman TAS. If it counts, Reboot.

What about Thundercats? Man, my entire class loved that show.

Heck, one of my all-time favorite shows is Ronin Warriors.

Seriously, girls liked these shows too. Girls like video games too and comics back then. Step out of your fantasy world and join reality because not everything revolves around tumblr and fanfiction and whatever other nonsense you keep going on about.

[ssjup81]

Then I guess that makes every other non-combative civilian they saved in the series who snooped a little too close to the villains, a "damsel in distress" too, considering the many times they saved Vernon, Burne, Zack, Kerma...Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. There was nothing about April that made her a damsel in distress.

Peach is a damsel in distress. Her sole purpose is to be kidnapped so Mario can save her.

First Zelda game, I'd say Zelda was a damsel in distress....outside of that, not so much given the stories the games have. She's sought after because of her power and stuff, but that's about it, really. Gotta love the twist in Ocarina of Time Zelda hid out from Ganondorf for 7 years and learned fighting techniques to avoid being kidnapped and was parading around as Sheik. She was only captured when she finally met Link again and revealed her identity to him.. Same with Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, but never mind.

April, no. She usually was in the wrong place and the wrong time and was always serious about her job. She always sacrificed herself to try and get her story either out or get it in general. She would also try to fight back and talk back. She even tries to escape the villain herself at times but is overpowered because she can't fight and stuff. I've never seen Peach do that. She sits there and wait. April acted like a true news reporter as that's what they do.

[Refractive Reflections]

April, no. She usually was in the wrong place and the wrong time and was always serious about her job. She always sacrificed herself to try and get her story either out or get it in general. She would also try to fight back and talk back. She even tries to escape the villain herself at times but is overpowered because she can't fight and stuff. I've never seen Peach do that. She sits there and wait. April acted like a true news reporter as that's what they do.

Yeah, people forget that she was an investigative reporter looking into the criminal underworld after all, with an overbearing, demanding boss. I'm pretty sure if OT April was a male, "he" would be considered either adventurous, courageous, or maybe foolish (depending on one's comfort level of risk), but somewhat praised for risking "his" life for the news story to bring down the criminal operation, but not weak in the sense of "damsel in distress". But I guess since she's pretty, has a curvy figure, and has been a staple in Rule 34 obscene TMNT fanart, it's superficially easy to classify her into that category.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Step outside of your bubble, you may learn something.

Did you have any female friends as a kid? That's like saying no boy ever liked Jem and the Holograms or She-Ra (and there are adult males now who actually admit to having liked these shows as kids).

I watched the OT religiously until it stopped being shown in syndication (pre 1990) and until CBS in my area stopped airing Saturday morning cartoons (round about season 7, I think) and replaced it with news and Martha Stewart which annoyed the heck out of me. Other areas still had CBS Sat morn program, like in the cities around me.

I loved watching Batman TAS and used to rush to watch that. I liked watching the Superfriends. I loved Mighty Max! I loved Jonny Quest (yeah...60s show, but there was an 80s version too...liked the 60s version more).

In the 80s I liked Dangermouse. I used to watch Transformers, Voltron, GI Joe, etc. (although I didn't care for Transformers, GI Joe, or Voltron...I was kinda forced to watch those). lol Either way, I still watched them. Oh and Mr. T's cartoon, used to love that...although probably not too actiony.

Oh what about Swat Kats! That show was great! Spiderman TAS. Superman TAS. If it counts, Reboot.

What about Thundercats? Man, my entire class loved that show.

Heck, one of my all-time favorite shows is Ronin Warriors.

Seriously, girls liked these shows too. Girls like video games too and comics back then. Step out of your fantasy world and join reality because not everything revolves around tumblr and fanfiction and whatever other nonsense you keep going on about.


I second this^^ I loved some of the shows you just mentioned- and yes, I do think Reboot counts!


I'm not speaking for all girls obviously, but you guys seriously don't remember back in the 80's and early 90's it was unusual for girls to like "boy things?" Its not like that with the modern generation of the 2000's, but it sure used to be like that.

When I was a kid if you saw a girl with a TMNT toy or a Batman figure or a Spiderman it was rare and unusual. They would always be in the Barbie or doll section instead. Girls playing videogames received the same unusual look back then, like, "You're a girl and you play videogames, really?"

I think it was the internet and the widespread culture of online fandom that let people see that there were millions of other girls just like them who could like "boys cartoons" and that's why its more widespread now. I mention deviantart, livejournal and tumblr specifically because its these things that let people share their interests easily on the internet with others.


Um, Cubed, yes, we DID. I'm from the same time-frame as you (probably even more so, as I'm older) and not only did I like those types of shows, but so did some of my other female friends. We watched the same cartoons as you and just about every other kid in America at he time- because that's what was airing! And yes, many of us LIKED them.

As a matter of fact, I played with my Legos, Hot Wheels, and Tonka toys just as much if not more than my "girl toys", and had action figures of She-Ra which I played with more than I did my Barbie toys. I was fond of playing with my cousins' Transformers and Star Wars figures, Turtles, He-Man, and GI Joes, too. Didn't have any of my own (parents never bought them for me) but that didn't stop me from playing with them! And as noted before, this was YEARS before there was widespread access to internet. Many other girls I knew did the same- they played with their brothers' toys as much as their own.


Yeah, I was about to say the same thing. There was nothing about April that made her a damsel in distress.

Peach is a damsel in distress. Her sole purpose is to be kidnapped so Mario can save her.

First Zelda game, I'd say Zelda was a damsel in distress....outside of that, not so much given the stories the games have. She's sought after because of her power and stuff, but that's about it, really. Gotta love the twist in Ocarina of Time Zelda hid out from Ganondorf for 7 years and learned fighting techniques to avoid being kidnapped and was parading around as Sheik. She was only captured when she finally met Link again and revealed her identity to him.. Same with Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, but never mind.

April, no. She usually was in the wrong place and the wrong time and was always serious about her job. She always sacrificed herself to try and get her story either out or get it in general. She would also try to fight back and talk back. She even tries to escape the villain herself at times but is overpowered because she can't fight and stuff. I've never seen Peach do that. She sits there and wait. April acted like a true news reporter as that's what they do.


Ditto to this^^

[plastroncafe]

I think it was the internet and the widespread culture of online fandom that let people see that there were millions of other girls just like them who could like "boys cartoons" and that's why its more widespread now. I mention deviantart, livejournal and tumblr specifically because its these things that let people share their interests easily on the internet with others.

I disagree with this. There were always millions of us, women and girls who like things that you and other gatekeepers like you have decided are "boy things." You didn't know about us because you went out of your way to make us feel like we didn't belong, so we didn't go to conventions, and we didn't go to comicbook stores.

You're surprised to find us online now, because you're going into our spaces. Places we've made without the gatekeepers.

Just because you're just seeing us all for the first time, doesn't mean we weren't always there to begin with.

And that's why the original question, no matter how well intentioned, is insulting.

As for April being a Damsel in Distress, it's an argument that would be far easier to brush off if there had been more female characters on the show. This is kind of argument you get left open to when you play the Token Game.

[Luckyday]

This is probably one of the annoying things that a TMNT writer has to deal with. You either make April able enough to fight along with the turtles or write as a very average normal. The problem however is that people will complain that she's no longer realistic or that she's a damsel in distress.

It's like you can never win.

I really wish that there was a character essay on April that is extensive as these.

http://crabapplered.livejournal.com/88173.html

http://crabapplered.livejournal.com/88340.html#cutid1

[IndigoErth]

I'm not speaking for all girls obviously, but you guys seriously don't remember back in the 80's and early 90's it was unusual for girls to like "boy things?" Its not like that with the modern generation of the 2000's, but it sure used to be like that.
Maybe where you are/were.

Speaking as a women - I don't think I know any women who didn't have any "boy toys." I had a fair mix of stuff, even my sister who used to be the more girly, wannabe princess type owned a G.I. Joe, had a Turtle or two, etc. A friend once told me she always wanted the Grayskull Castle play set thing (but never had one). As some examples.

So no, I'd have to disagree.

I think it was the internet and the widespread culture of online fandom that let people see that there were millions of other girls just like them who could like "boys cartoons" and that's why its more widespread now. I mention deviantart, livejournal and tumblr specifically because its these things that let people share their interests easily on the internet with others.

Which is no doubt the only real change, visibility.

[Storm Eagle]

Um, Cubed, yes, we DID. I'm from the same time-frame as you (probably even more so, as I'm older) and not only did I like those types of shows, but so did some of my other female friends. We watched the same cartoons as you and just about every other kid in America at he time- because that's what was airing! And yes, many of us LIKED them.

As a matter of fact, I played with my Legos, Hot Wheels, and Tonka toys just as much if not more than my "girl toys", and had action figures of She-Ra which I played with more than I did my Barbie toys. I was fond of playing with my cousins' Transformers and Star Wars figures, Turtles, He-Man, and GI Joes, too. Didn't have any of my own (parents never bought them for me) but that didn't stop me from playing with them! And as noted before, this was YEARS before there was widespread access to internet. Many other girls I knew did the same- they played with their brothers' toys as much as their own.



I disagree with this. There were always millions of us, women and girls who like things that you and other gatekeepers like you have decided are "boy things." You didn't know about us because you went out of your way to make us feel like we didn't belong, so we didn't go to conventions, and we didn't go to comicbook stores.

You're surprised to find us online now, because you're going into our spaces. Places we've made without the gatekeepers.

Just because you're just seeing us all for the first time, doesn't mean we weren't always there to begin with.

And that's why the original question, no matter how well intentioned, is insulting.

As for April being a Damsel in Distress, it's an argument that would be far easier to brush off if there had been more female characters on the show. This is kind of argument you get left open to when you play the Token Game.

Maybe where you are/were.



In all fairness to Cubed, the majority of girls he encountered as a kid were probably the kind that would turn their noses up at things like TMNT, saying it's "boys stuff". I've dealt with my fair share of those types when I was young myself, and I guess I thought attitudes like that do a disservice to the boys who were fans of such things.

[Refractive Reflections]

As for April being a Damsel in Distress, it's an argument that would be far easier to brush off if there had been more female characters on the show. This is kind of argument you get left open to when you play the Token Game.

This is probably one of the annoying things that a TMNT writer has to deal with. You either make April able enough to fight along with the turtles or write as normal. The problem however is that people will complain that she's no longer realistic or that she's a damsel in distress.

It's like you can't never win.

I really wish that there was a character essay on April that is extensive as these.

http://crabapplered.livejournal.com/88173.html

http://crabapplered.livejournal.com/88340.html#cutid1

The thing that's annoying to me is that it plays into the shallow notion of, since she's not as physically intimidating (physically fighting or brute strength) as the guys, she's somehow a "weak" character overall. It supports the cynical perspective that men will only take women seriously if they can physically harm them, or if they are a threat to them somehow.

I mean OT Kerma was a bigger "weakling" than OT April ever was, but he doesn't seem to have the embarrassing male equivalent title to "damsel in distress", but yet he's elevated as the noble pacifist. Zach was just as scrappy, loyal to the Turtles, and kidnap-prone as April, yet I don't notice anybody calling him a "weakling", or something close to being a "damsel in distress" either, with Zach being kidnapped almost all the time whenever he did show up in the series.

As for having more female characters, there was Lotus and Mona Lisa where they did show strong, fighting females, but yet they were only 1 or 2 episodes. :ohwell: (Even Buffy, if you consider her bratty attitude against Shredder and Krang. :P)

That's why I consider it a lowbrow move in my perspective when they try to make April a ninja-wannabe, especially when she develops skills that rival the Turtles. Now I'm not saying I'm against fighting female characters since I enjoy characters like Karai and Lotus, but what I'm emphasizing is that it seems the female characters (especially the attractive ones) are pressured to be physically intimidating in order to be taken seriously as a "strong" character in itself (to step out of the confining "love interest" or "damsel in distress" label), unlike the male characters who don't have that heavy amount of pressure to "prove themselves", especially in action/adventure cartoons. ...And if a cartoon has to pander to that notion to make most or every female a physical threat just to be taken seriously, then I probably won't think too highly of it. It demeans and belittles the female character's intelligence, personality, talents and skills (outside of fighting) as being unimportant/irrelevant.

[Luckyday]

The thing that's annoying to me is that it plays into the shallow notion of, since she's not as physically intimidating (physically fighting or brute strength) as the guys, she's somehow a "weak" character overall. It supports the cynical perspective that men will only take women seriously if they can physically harm them, or if they are threat to them somehow.

I mean OT Kerma was a bigger "weakling" than OT April ever was, but he doesn't seem to have the embarrassing male equivalent title to "damsel in distress", but yet he's elevated as the noble pacifist. Zach was just a scrappy, loyal to the Turtles, and kidnap-prone as April, yet I don't notice anybody calling him a "weakling", or something close to being a "damsel in distress" either, with Zach being kidnapped almost all the time whenever he did show up in the series.

As for having more female characters, there was Lotus and Mona Lisa where they did show strong, fighting females, but yet they were only 1 or 2 episodes. :ohwell: (Even Buffy, if you consider her bratty attitude against Shredder and Krang. :P)

That's why I consider it a lowbrow move in my perspective when they try to make April a ninja-wannabe, especially when she develops skills that rival the Turtles. Now I'm not saying I'm against fighting female characters since I enjoy characters like Karai and Lotus, but what I'm emphasizing is that it seems the female characters (especially the attractive ones) are pressured to be physically intimidating in order to be taken seriously as a "strong" character in itself (to step out of the confining "love interest" or "damsel in distress" label), unlike the male characters who don't have that heavy amount of pressure to "prove themselves", especially in action/adventure cartoons. ...And if a cartoon has to pander to that notion to make most or every female a physical threat just to be taken seriously, then I probably won't think too highly of it. It demeans and belittles the female character's intelligence, personality, talents and skills (outside of fighting) as being unimportant/irrelevant.

Maybe that way Ciro can't think outside of the box other "the good girl" and "the bad girl" check list. Although, with Karai there was more to her then being a femme fatale. That couldn't been a fluke, right?

Or it was only that way because her importance was tied....nah, I'm not even going to go there.

[Refractive Reflections]

Maybe that way Ciro can't think outside of the box other "the good girl" and "the bad girl" check list. Although, with Karai there was more to her then being a femme fatale. That couldn't been a fluke, right?

Or only that way because her importance was tied....nah, I'm not even going to go there.

...Well :P...Nick Karai's character growth can't suffer plot amnesia like Nick April's since Karai is so intertwined with the whole Splinter-Shredder feud. If Karai suffered just as much "amnesia" as April, the Splinter-Shredder feud would go nowhere.

[Warhorse]

You know, I can never speak for anyone, but, when growing up, I realized I was more into movies/shows that depicted animals/non humans. My other favorite shows along with TMNT were The Littles, Chipmunks, Rainbow Brite (I loved that horse on there) BraveStar (the horse) and a little known cartoon called Wildfire.

[PangolinFeets]

The thing that's annoying to me is that it plays into the shallow notion of, since she's not as physically intimidating (physically fighting or brute strength) as the guys, she's somehow a "weak" character overall. It supports the cynical perspective that men will only take women seriously if they can physically harm them, or if they are threat to them somehow.

I mean OT Kerma was a bigger "weakling" than OT April ever was, but he doesn't seem to have the embarrassing male equivalent title to "damsel in distress", but yet he's elevated as the noble pacifist. Zach was just a scrappy, loyal to the Turtles, and kidnap-prone as April, yet I don't notice anybody calling him a "weakling", or something close to being a "damsel in distress" either, with Zach being kidnapped almost all the time whenever he did show up in the series.

As for having more female characters, there was Lotus and Mona Lisa where they did show strong, fighting females, but yet they were only 1 or 2 episodes. :ohwell: (Even Buffy, if you consider her bratty attitude against Shredder and Krang. :P)

That's why I consider it a lowbrow move in my perspective when they try to make April a ninja-wannabe, especially when she develops skills that rival the Turtles. Now I'm not saying I'm against fighting female characters since I enjoy characters like Karai and Lotus, but what I'm emphasizing is that it seems the female characters (especially the attractive ones) are pressured to be physically intimidating in order to be taken seriously as a "strong" character in itself (to step out of the confining "love interest" or "damsel in distress" label), unlike the male characters who don't have that heavy amount of pressure to "prove themselves", especially in action/adventure cartoons. ...And if a cartoon has to pander to that notion to make most or every female a physical threat just to be taken seriously, then I probably won't think too highly of it. It demeans and belittles the female character's intelligence, personality, talents and skills (outside of fighting) as being unimportant/irrelevant.

But saying that other characters get kidnapped doesn't negate that in OT she was constantly being kidnapped, tied up, molested, and juggled around. So much so that they poked fun of it in Turtles Forever. Sure, she's plucky and fun, but she was there as 'the pretty thing to be saved' very frequently.

I'm not saying I don't like her. I just never identified with April in the show. I never remember her doing anything particularly important except discovering problems because she was a reporter. I couldn't play her in the video games. When I played with my action figures with my brother, we tossed April aside and made the turtles fight aliens and predators. Those are my memories of April as a child. lol

I find myself far more in tune with IDW April. I feel like she's a much better example of what you're explaining. Sure, she meets Casey because she's looking to learn self-defense, but overall she's not really a 'fighter'. However, she's not really a 'victim'. She's more of a key support than anything, with her inside knowledge from Stockgen. She's smart, able to take care of herself, she speaks her mind, she's a good person to talk to, isn't overtly sexualized, and is really her own character (and she brazenly chops off ALL her hair, which I thought was pretty ****ing baller). I am BEYOND excited to be able to have an April like that because I agree: a woman that is physically strong is not necessarily a strong female character. I can't wait to see more from her.

[Refractive Reflections]

But saying that other characters get kidnapped doesn't negate that in OT she was constantly being kidnapped, tied up, molested, and juggled around. So much so that they poked fun of it in Turtles Forever. Sure, she's plucky and fun, but she was there as 'the pretty thing to be saved' very frequently.

If OT April wasn't an investigative reporter, I would be there with you too. But the thing is, Vernon, Burne, Kerma, Zach, even the Neutrinos to a degree were kidnapped frequently or in some perilous situation when they did snoop around close to the danger like April did. At least OT April had a legitimate reason because of her job, but if she was some prized possession like Peach/Princess Toadstool then yes I would agree. Shredder usually kidnapped her because they (Shredder and Krang) knew it was best way to coerce the Turtles into a trap. Why not strike at your enemy's weakest link?

If anything, Nick April was more of a "damsel in distress" in the beginning of the series because she was a prized possession of the Kraang and she kept getting into trouble (with the Turtles rescuing her), even when she knew she was the prized possession with the Kraang and was not completely trained in fighting ("The Kraang Conspiracy"), in addition to having to live in the sewers for sometime.

I'm not saying I don't like her. I just never identified with April in the show. I never remember her doing anything particularly important except discovering problems because she was a reporter. I couldn't play her in the video games. When I played with my action figures with my brother, we tossed April aside and made the turtles fight aliens and predators. Those are my memories of April as a child. lol

That's cool, I mean everyone identifies with different characters. I just think classifying OT April as simply "damsel in distress" fodder is harsh considering her investigative reporting career, protects and helps the Turtles in terms of their public image (i.e. "Turtles on Trial" and the Red Sky Seasons), and provides background information about the criminals the Turtles are pursuing that the Turtles probably couldn't extract as easily by themselves.

I find myself far more in tune with IDW April. I feel like she's a much better example of what you're explaining. Sure, she meets Casey because she's looking to learn self-defense, but overall she's not really a 'fighter'. However, she's not really a 'victim'. She's more of a key support than anything, with her inside knowledge from Stockgen. She's smart, able to take care of herself, she speaks her mind, she's a good person to talk to, isn't overtly sexualized, and is really her own character (and she brazenly chops off ALL her hair, which I thought was pretty ****ing baller). I am BEYOND excited to be able to have an April like that because I agree: a woman that is physically strong is not necessarily a strong female character. I can't wait to see more from her.
That's cool too, because from what you are describing, the comic is valuing her unique and individual talents rather than having to be forced to "be a ninja" just to prove her importance to the team.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

...and a little known cartoon called Wildfire.

Wow, and here I thought I was the only one who remembered that one!! Was one of my favorites at the time. Would even get up earlier than otherwise on Saturday mornings to catch that one. When they yanked it, I was sorely displeased.

[HotNunchuckFury]

I had a great childhood and didn't have overly strict parents, however I did grow up in a household that had very rigid views on what was deemed girls toys and boys toys. This meant I never had any action figures, but I do have very fond memories of going to my male cousins house of the same age and playing with his He-man toys. Some of my favourite play memories are running around the garden pretending I was a Thundercat or Ghostbuster, because all you needed was your imagination. My favourite toy at one time was a sword which I begged my mum for one day when I spotted a barrel of them at the town market - I thank the makers of She-ra for being allowed that one. ;) Now I have my own income I can choose to spend my money on action figures and "boys toys" as I please. So I agree that while views and attitudes have been challenged over time, it isn't so much the views of the female fans who grew up with this stuff that comes into question, but the views of the older generation who wanted their daughters to conform to their expectations.

[Prowler]

I'm not speaking for all girls obviously, but you guys seriously don't remember back in the 80's and early 90's it was unusual for girls to like "boy things?" Its not like that with the modern generation of the 2000's, but it sure used to be like that.

When I was a kid if you saw a girl with a TMNT toy or a Batman figure or a Spiderman it was rare and unusual. They would always be in the Barbie or doll section instead. Girls playing videogames received the same unusual look back then, like, "You're a girl and you play videogames, really?"

I think it was the internet and the widespread culture of online fandom that let people see that there were millions of other girls just like them who could like "boys cartoons" and that's why its more widespread now. I mention deviantart, livejournal and tumblr specifically because its these things that let people share their interests easily on the internet with others.
I don't remember since I was born in 1990. But my brother was born in 1983 and says that, while it was mostly boys who were into the TMNT, it wasn't exactly rare for girls to like them either.

I mean, come on now. You actually think girls only play with barbies when they're kids?

What are you gonna say next? That girls and women don't like to watch professional sports?

[Donnieangelo]

You know, I can never speak for anyone, but, when growing up, I realized I was more into movies/shows that depicted animals/non humans. My other favorite shows along with TMNT were The Littles, Chipmunks, Rainbow Brite (I loved that horse on there) BraveStar (the horse) and a little known cartoon called Wildfire.
YES, Chipmunks for the win!

(One of my favourite episodes is called The Greatest Show-offs On Earth.)

[Donatello19]

...for the same reason guys like it?

[Donnieangelo]

...for the same reason guys like it?
For me, pretty much the same.

[plastroncafe]

This is probably one of the annoying things that a TMNT writer has to deal with. You either make April able enough to fight along with the turtles or write as a very average normal. The problem however is that people will complain that she's no longer realistic or that she's a damsel in distress.

It's like you can never win.


There is no way of "winning" when literally any argument can be made. Though it does get a whole lot easier to defend yourself against arguments when one has more than one singular data point on which to hang one's entire defense.

More female characters on a show like TMNT would go a long way towards defending against allegations of "Damsel in Distress" syndrome.

This is what Ciro was talking about when he complained that female characters get too powerful to write for. Well of course they do when those one or two characters are expected to shoulder the representation of an entire gender expression.

Add a few more and you can have characters who aren't all exactly what's being said here \/\/\/


The thing that's annoying to me is that it plays into the shallow notion of, since she's not as physically intimidating (physically fighting or brute strength) as the guys, she's somehow a "weak" character overall. It supports the cynical perspective that men will only take women seriously if they can physically harm them, or if they are a threat to them somehow.

I mean OT Kerma was a bigger "weakling" than OT April ever was, but he doesn't seem to have the embarrassing male equivalent title to "damsel in distress", but yet he's elevated as the noble pacifist. Zach was just as scrappy, loyal to the Turtles, and kidnap-prone as April, yet I don't notice anybody calling him a "weakling", or something close to being a "damsel in distress" either, with Zach being kidnapped almost all the time whenever he did show up in the series.

As for having more female characters, there was Lotus and Mona Lisa where they did show strong, fighting females, but yet they were only 1 or 2 episodes. :ohwell: (Even Buffy, if you consider her bratty attitude against Shredder and Krang. :P)

That's why I consider it a lowbrow move in my perspective when they try to make April a ninja-wannabe, especially when she develops skills that rival the Turtles. Now I'm not saying I'm against fighting female characters since I enjoy characters like Karai and Lotus, but what I'm emphasizing is that it seems the female characters (especially the attractive ones) are pressured to be physically intimidating in order to be taken seriously as a "strong" character in itself (to step out of the confining "love interest" or "damsel in distress" label), unlike the male characters who don't have that heavy amount of pressure to "prove themselves", especially in action/adventure cartoons. ...And if a cartoon has to pander to that notion to make most or every female a physical threat just to be taken seriously, then I probably won't think too highly of it. It demeans and belittles the female character's intelligence, personality, talents and skills (outside of fighting) as being unimportant/irrelevant.

[Pterobat]

Ugh.

I hate this idea that if you're being critical of a non-fighting female character's portrayal, it's like you don't understand that "women can be strong in other ways besides being able to fight". Knowing that about female characters is a given--that's how most female characters were portrayed up until recently.

It's also a given that everyone knows a character can't be perfect all the time. Criticizing April is coming from the natural understanding that everybody knows these two things.

I had all that in mind when I said that Fred Wolf April still fails *as a character who doesn't have to fight to be good*. All of her initiative, all of her curiosity from being a star reporter and getting the hot tips, always ends up getting her into trouble. She's frequently grabbed by the bad guys for investigating them, and it's like she's punished for taking initiatives.

Fred Wolf April totally had potential to *be* that sort of character who proves interesting and useful and essential without having to fight. But the thing is, she never lived up to it.

And yes, all of it looks worse exactly *because* she's the major female character in that series. Any male character who is victimized is a minor character or a one-shot, who has plenty of other major male characters to balance them out.

Making April a ninja, mutant, living drawing, etc is all trite and smacks of a desperate attempt to make her interesting, when she could already be interesting if she were simply written better.

[IndigoErth]

Why are so many women into the turtles
To reverse the question - is there any real reason women shouldn't be? ;) So far 30 years of TMNT hasn't come up with any.

[Warhorse]

Wow, and here I thought I was the only one who remembered that one!! Was one of my favorites at the time. Would even get up earlier than otherwise on Saturday mornings to catch that one. When they yanked it, I was sorely displeased.

Oh, another Wildfire fan! Yeah, I loved the concept. I wished they would bring it back to it's likeness.

[CyberCubed]

This topic is turning into something you see on tumblr. For some reason tumblr thrives on feminist debates and arguments. Mainly because unlike forums people can reblog the same thing endlessly to get their point across.

[plastroncafe]

Shh, grown ups are talking.

[Luckyday]

I don't know what tell you Cube but asking women's opinion as a whole is part of feminism. It can also be about the relationship how women want to see ourselves vs what other people see us as, which is how some of women feel about April. She suppose to someone that women see them selves as and yet they do not. It doesn't really mean she a bad character but I think it proves that you can't expect for token characters to be a representation of everything.

[BabyTurtles]

for me...I like action....comedy....good characters....and good story...
I'd get into any show if they had these things :3 and ninjas....I have a soft spot for ninjas XD

and I know it was a few pages back....but as for the April thing....

It's not like I don't like her (except 2012 April I can do without her)...it's just that she's kinda bland compared to 4 mutant ninja turtles with colorful personalities.....I can relate more to a character with an interesting personality than with a girl...just because she's a girl.

[Luckyday]

for me...I like action....comedy....good characters....and good story...
I'd get into any show if they had these things :3 and ninjas....I have a soft spot for ninjas XD

and I know it was a few pages back....but as for the April thing....

It's not like I don't like her (except 2012 April I can do without her)...it's just that she's kinda bland compared to 4 mutant ninja turtles with colorful personalities.....I can relate more to a character with an interesting personality than with a girl...just because she's a girl.

God. 2012 April is so "blah and meh". Say what you will about 80's April but at least I can sum up her personality in one word or two sentences or less and I can't for the life of me do that with Nick's April and I don't think that I ever will be able to.

[BabyTurtles]

God. 2012 April is so "blah and meh". Say what you will about 80's April but at least I can sum up her personality in one word or two sentences or less and I can't for the life of me do that with Nick's April and I don't think that I ever will be able to.

She's an enigma.

[IndigoErth]

This topic is turning into something you see on tumblr. For some reason tumblr thrives on feminist debates and arguments. Mainly because unlike forums people can reblog the same thing endlessly to get their point across.
Really? I've seen forums that quite consistently go into feminist/anti-feminist debating (raging) over and over quite well without being able to reblog anything. But then again... reblogging could be the sibling of the forum quote option.



Is there a suggestion box....I would like to suggest a "post on Tumblr" button be added to every post. Just, you know, out of spite. :P

[ernesth100]

Because Raphael is hot.

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/207/c/7/tmnt_raphael_wallpaper_1920x1080_by_sachso74-d7sdr2z.jpg

[plastroncafe]

God. 2012 April is so "blah and meh". Say what you will about 80's April but at least I can sum up her personality in one word or two sentences or less and I can't for the life of me do that with Nick's April and I don't think that I ever will be able to.

80s April: Token
12' April: McGuffin

What do I win?

[BabyTurtles]

80s April: Token
12' April: McGuffin

What do I win?

XD what about 2003 April??

[Coola Yagami]

Actually yeah, when I was a kid almost every girl I ever met either didn't like tmnt or cartoons in general. Or maybe they did but they just didn't talk about it cause it was 'lame'. I only knew one girl in high school that liked the sonic the hedgehog cartoons and played fighting games.

It wasn't until the internet that I met all these women that 'back in my day' did watch tmnt and other 'boy cartoons'.

Oh and I did watch She Ra. I mean as a he man fan you kinda had to. It had the evil horde AND the snake men, both meant to be 'phase 2' and 'phase 3' threats beyond skeletor, that for whatever reason were portrayed as she Ra villains instead.

[plastroncafe]

Full disclosure, I haven't seen a whole lot of the 2k3 incarnation, in spite of the fact that I own it all, so I don't know that I can accurately answer this question.

[CyberCubed]

Full disclosure, I haven't seen a whole lot of the 2k3 incarnation, in spite of the fact that I own it all, so I don't know that I can accurately answer this question.

You have the entire series and you never watched it? Considering you're a big TMNT fan I find that rather bizarre. Even if you only have the time to watch one episode every few days you could get through it in a few months.

[plastroncafe]

Thank you for mansplaining to me how I should spend my free time.
I shall take it under advisement.

[Warhorse]

Thank you for mansplaining to me how I should spend my free time.
I shall take it under advisement.

Yeah. Some people just don't understand that other people's lives do not revolve around TMNT.

[BabyTurtles]

Full disclosure, I haven't seen a whole lot of the 2k3 incarnation, in spite of the fact that I own it all, so I don't know that I can accurately answer this question.

I'm gonna have to say 2003 April is probably the best outta the 3 cartoon Aprils....

she's smart/can fight/understanding/quick thinker/sister/mother figure
(she mostly helped Donnie with the smart science stuff, but she was close with all the turtles too....she even let Mikey be a bridesmaid)

she was a little too perfect though XD but at least she was a human!

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah. Some people just don't understand that other people's lives do not revolve around TMNT.

Yeah. Not all of us can marathon the whole series once or twice a year. Who had that kind of time and still have a life?

[Warhorse]

I'm gonna have to say 2003 April is probably the best outta the 3 cartoon Aprils....

she's smart/can fight/understanding/quick thinker/sister/mother figure
she was a little too perfect though XD but at least she was a human!

2k3 April does have my favorite April moment/quote. During the Leo one shot, and he comes crashing through the window, and he tells her to get out and save herself, she refuses and tells him that he is her family and she's not leaving without him. Great moment there!

[ernesth100]

Was I just ignored?

[ssjup81]

God. 2012 April is so "blah and meh". Say what you will about 80's April but at least I can sum up her personality in one word or two sentences or less and I can't for the life of me do that with Nick's April and I don't think that I ever will be able to.Stubborn? That's how I'd describe her.

[Rooish]

Sometimes posts get ignored; there wasn't much to say to that one. Many people do find Raph hot.

Many of spend a ton of time on here so no reason to go ridicule Cubed for suggesting someone watch a half hour episode every few days, although obviously people don't all have time or interest in that.

I am a woman and I imagine I like the Turtles for the same reason many men/boys do, as well as many women/girls do, and I imagine my reasons differ from many. However I am guessing that the abundance of animal characters helps overall to attract female viewers. It is a stereotype but I think that we may enjoy watching a bunch of human dudes less than an animal/men/women cast. Also I kind of doubt women dislike April--not anymore than men might--but as a kid I did prefer to "be" one of the Turtles instead of April while playing games, because the Turtles were very cool.

[Warhorse]

Sometimes posts get ignored; there wasn't much to say to that one. Many people do find Raph hot.

Many of spend a ton of time on here so no reason to go ridicule Cubed for suggesting someone watch a half hour episode every few days, although obviously people don't all have time or interest in that.

I am a woman and I imagine I like the Turtles for the same reason many men/boys do, as well as many women/girls do, and I imagine my reasons differ from many. However I am guessing that the abundance of animal characters helps overall to attract female viewers. It is a stereotype but I think that we may enjoy watching a bunch of human dudes less than an animal/men/women cast. Also I kind of doubt women dislike April--not anymore than men might--but as a kid I did prefer to "be" one of the Turtles instead of April while playing games, because the Turtles were very cool.

You know, as a kid, and today, I could never dive so deep into a character that I wish I was them. Now, I wished in the past that I was like, given the golden ticked from The Last Action Hero so I can visit my own heroes from time to time, but that's about as far as it got. Maybe I'm vain in that sense, but I'm happy enough with myself that I could never imagine being anyone else. If that makes sense. Now, maybe I liked the Turtles because I could relate to them in a sense. Especially Raph, because I was the sarcastic one out of the group, and it's no secret I can have my hostile moments too. But, I'd never want to actually be Raphael.

[CyberCubed]

Thank you for mansplaining to me how I should spend my free time.
I shall take it under advisement.

Yet you have the time to watch Korra.

[IndigoErth]

but as a kid I did prefer to "be" one of the Turtles instead of April while playing games, because the Turtles were very cool.
*nod*

Sad fact of life as a girl, in most cases the guys get all the coolest characters. *sigh* Sometimes a girl just wants to be awesome, too, dammit. lol And unless you idolized adulthood, being a reporter (in accordance to the series I grew up with), or simply being the sidekick, I can't see taking up the main female role because you're a girl as anything other than boring...

That's like if it was a group of female characters, cool enough ones that even the guys loved them, as much as a brony loves a pony, and then the one lone male character is...Vernon. And the boys have to be Vernon because boy. lol


Was I just ignored?
Was it an observation or personal opinion? ;) Personally all I could attempt is a rebuttal. lol

[Powder]

Thank you for mansplaining to me how I should spend my free time.
I shall take it under advisement.

Yeah, because what he said to you totally has to do with gender. :trolleye:

[Blossombrooks]

*nod*

Sad fact of life as a girl, in most cases the guys get all the coolest characters. *sigh* Sometimes a girl just wants to be awesome, too, dammit. lol And unless you idolized adulthood, being a reporter (in accordance to the series I grew up with), or simply being the sidekick, I can't see taking up the main female role because you're a girl as anything other than boring...


Thinking back to my playground days I'd love to be able to say all the girls were into TMNT but it was a very small rural school with traditional views on gender and I can only recall one of my female friends being kind of into it. My best friends were all male, I was a tomboy and that didn't stop them assigning me the female character's roles. I had to be April (until I rebelled) and when playing Ghostbusters I was always Janine even though I would have much preferred to be Egon but hey, for me it was still better than playing with dolls, dolls didn't have katanas and honour.

[Refractive Reflections]

Ugh.

I hate this idea that if you're being critical of a non-fighting female character's portrayal, it's like you don't understand that "women can be strong in other ways besides being able to fight". Knowing that about female characters is a given--that's how most female characters were portrayed up until recently.

"A given"? "How most female characters were portrayed until recently"?

...I would disagree with that considering how a generation or two ago that society considered women too mentally/emotionally weak or unintelligent for "male careers" (i.e. scientists, doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, CEOs, politicians, etc.) I certainly don't see the female "strength in other ways" being commonly present in the cultural tone of entertainment from the 1940s-60s (before the women's movement), outside of being the devious femme fatale or being in traditional "female careers" (i.e. nurses, teachers, secretaries, and waitresses).


I had all that in mind when I said that Fred Wolf April still fails *as a character who doesn't have to fight to be good*. All of her initiative, all of her curiosity from being a star reporter and getting the hot tips, always ends up getting her into trouble. She's frequently grabbed by the bad guys for investigating them, and it's like she's punished for taking initiatives.

So how exactly is she "punished" for taking initiatives? I mean Burne seems to compliment her work when she does get the story, as harsh and demanding as he is, while berating Vernon's cowardice. So... were you expecting career advancement for OT April? :-?

Fred Wolf April totally had potential to *be* that sort of character who proves interesting and useful and essential without having to fight. But the thing is, she never lived up to it.

So what would you have wanted then exactly for her character to "live up to it" then?

[Pterobat]

"A given"? "How most female characters were portrayed until recently"?

...I would disagree with that considering how a generation or two ago that society considered women too mentally/emotionally weak or unintelligent for "male careers" (i.e. scientists, doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, CEOs, politicians, etc.) I certainly don't see the female "strength in other ways" being commonly present in the cultural tone of entertainment from the 1940s-60s (before the women's movement), outside of being the devious femme fatale or being in traditional "female careers" (i.e. nurses, teachers, secretaries, and waitresses).

What I mean to say is that traditionally feminine female characters were/are not viewed maliciously by media and culture. It was just the way women were "supposed to be", and being traditionally feminine was also considered to provide female characters with unique virtues (i.e. the "Angel in the House").

By and large, no media consumer needs to be taught to value traditionally feminine women, because the media already values them. The culture at large already understands that a woman character doesn't need to fight to be strong and valued.

And April is "punished" because multiple times, she's investigating something, and grabbed by the bad guys before she can get away. It's linking her curiosity to being victimized.

So what would you have wanted then exactly for her character to "live up to it" then?

Simply put, not ending up kidnapped almost every time she searches for a story, and finding out information and making public/human contacts that help the Turtles in their daily feats of heroicness.

There are some good examples of this in the first season and the Sarnath arc, but April's role started to degenerate after that. April constantly being kidnapped was just one of the repetitive aspects of the series as it went on longer.

[plastroncafe]

Yeah, because what he said to you totally has to do with gender. :trolleye:

There is no better word to describe Cyber than Mansplainer.

Yet you have the time to watch Korra.

Yup! I do. Way to keep up.

[Refractive Reflections]

What I mean to say is that traditionally feminine female characters were/are not viewed maliciously by media and culture. It was just the way women were "supposed to be", and being traditionally feminine was also considered to provide female characters with unique virtues (i.e. the "Angel in the House").

By and large, no media consumer needs to be taught to value traditionally feminine women, because the media already values them. The culture at large already understands that a woman character doesn't need to fight to be strong and valued.

Well now you're jumping into areas of virtue and purity, which has been prevalent throughout traditional female characters (i.e. girl next door, southern belle, motherly figures). That's referring more to "benevolent sexism" (i.e. women need to be protected by men, women are inherently more vitreous/pure than men, women are naturally kinder than men). In your earlier post, you were saying:

Ugh.

I hate this idea that if you're being critical of a non-fighting female character's portrayal, it's like you don't understand that "women can be strong in other ways besides being able to fight". Knowing that about female characters is a given--that's how most female characters were portrayed up until recently.


It's one thing for the woman to be virtuous, but what I was referring to in the beginning relates more to the subtle forms of "hostile sexism", in which displaying a woman's mental/emotional strength, endurance, and capabilities that some ignore (in the context of skills, talents, professions, ingenuity, and intelligence) simply because her physicality doesn't equal that to men, which does not seem to be focused on or considered as much as the male characters unless the female character can physically beat up a male character.


And April is "punished" because multiple times, she's investigating something, and grabbed by the bad guys before she can get away. It's linking her curiosity to being victimized.

Simply put, not ending up kidnapped almost every time she searches for a story, and finding out information and making public/human contacts that help the Turtles in their daily feats of heroicness.

There are some good examples of this in the first season and the Sarnath arc, but April's role started to degenerate after that. April constantly being kidnapped was just one of the repetitive aspects of the series as it went on longer.

So even within the context of being an investigative reporter (where there's always inherent risk), where she is known to intermingle with the criminal underworld, still her curiosity is linked to being victimized? :-? It's not an occupational hazard?

...So would you say the same thing for Vernon then considering how easily he was captured (was he just as much of a victim when the show did show him snooping around)? What about Zach who was just as curious and got caught just as often, but actually had no legitimate reason to be involved with the criminals?

[IndigoErth]

By and large, no media consumer needs to be taught to value traditionally feminine women, because the media already values them.
I may be going off the beaten path or am mistaken about the current debate, but in terms of any "media consumer" needing to be taught to value ["traditionally feminine"] women...

Seriously, it really wasn't that long ago (the 50s I'm guessing) that society apparently had a thing for and felt it was ok to portray women and female characters, including in comic books, as rather infantilized and being spanked. Not in an erotic way, but like damn children. Because apparently the woman didn't know what was good for her and had it coming to teach her a lesson. They seemed to have liked the concept so much it seems it was in everything from advertisements to superheros doing it in comics. Apparently there was in fact a time that people needed to be taught to value (respect) ["traditional"] women. And while that portrayal may have gone away, there are still amounts of the associated attitude that has not.


Personally, if I'm not the intended category of a "traditionally feminine" woman - and given the usual romanticized definition of that I don't mind not being - I don't see why anyone should have to be taught to be respectful. And if anyone has to, all I can say: You have no honor.



Edit: Girl power strengths of feminine vanity!
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6hDZt1e0ofY/SM_5wN-RCGI/AAAAAAAABeY/NveudO_doGM/s1600/wonderwoman%2Bsexist.jpg

[Luckyday]

I not sure if this helps with Pterobat's argument but there is a kind of similar thing with Gwen Stacy's death in the Amazing Spiderman movie because instead of making it a tragedy of showing how his love ones will always be standing in the line of fire, it makes a uncomfortable statement that saids to the audience,

"If she had just listen to her dad, her boyfriend, and pretty much every other man in her life, she would been perfectly safe."

[zkarlette]

Putting politics aside...I remember many girls liking the show back in the day,we even had our little fan club. It is a fun show and the turtles have very relatable personalities. They are cute, could get you out of trouble and could be incredibly fun to hang around. On the other hand, Ironman is kind of a douchebag.

[Coola Yagami]

I honestly wonder why grown men love My Little Pony so much. Unlike TMNT that seems to go both ways, that show was specifically tailored to little girls.

[plastroncafe]

I've always assumed that men/boys like MLP for the same reason as its target audience: it's a clever, well written show with high production values.

That it's coded for girls/women shouldn't matter.

[Jester]

Exactly...like what you like...regardless of who it's "meant for."

[Metalwolf]

I honestly wonder why grown men love My Little Pony so much. Unlike TMNT that seems to go both ways, that show was specifically tailored to little girls.I've always heard it was because it had good writing. There might be other stuff, but that is the commonest explanation that seems to go around.

[IndigoErth]

I honestly wonder why grown men love My Little Pony so much. Unlike TMNT that seems to go both ways, that show was specifically tailored to little girls.
Yeah, that one is truly surprising, and I assume a first of it's kind that this has happened with, at least to this degree.

Kind of strange to see I'll admit, but (and because of) given that "girl stuff" has long been treated like (to put it in TMNT terms) a deadly mutagen that will melt their flesh off should any boy or man touch it... eh, I welcome it then. It's a cute enough show, I can see how it might appeal.



See this thread here... you know what this really is? " Find out who all the women members are." -- I kid, I kid.

[Pterobat]

It's false to say people need reminding that female characters don't have to "kick ass" to be strong. It's already common enough to believe/know that exact thing.

Likewise, I know what a character (male or female) in an action series who doesn't fight but is nonetheless interesting and useful looks like, but OT April ain't it. It's never been about the fact that she can't pick up a katana and go to town, but about how she fails in the niche the series puts her in.

It's obtuse to argue that the problems with OT April would vanish if one took into account that "she's not a fighter" and "she doesn't have to be perfect". All this is considered, and her moments of intelligence, bravery, and curiosity are still outweighed by how many times she gets kidnapped, threatened, etc.

You can't compare Vernon to April, because Vernon is meant to be a wimp/comic relief, and he's balanced out by other male characters who are stronger. April is one of the few female characters, and her peril is meant to be taken seriously.

When April places herself into dangerous situations and gets captured, it's not an "occupational hazard" but:

I not sure if this helps with Pterobat's argument but there is a kind of similar thing with Gwen Stacy's death in the Amazing Spiderman movie because instead of making it a tragedy of showing how his love ones will always be standing in the line of fire, it makes a uncomfortable statement that saids to the audience,

"If she had just listen to her dad, her boyfriend, and pretty much every other man in her life, she would been perfectly safe."

Yeah, that. That's always the vibe I got off OT April. She didn't investigate and get captured because she was brave and would do anything for a story, but because that was what had to happen to "The Girl", because every time she left the studio, that was what happened to "The Girl".

[Coola Yagami]

Well, good writing is fine and dandy, and of course, one can't also say that just because 'it's for girls' it CAN'T have good writing.... but yeah, show obviously tailored for little girls.... kinda weird and somewhat creepy having so many old adult males into it. I'll just never get it. It's like me liking the sponge because 'oh it has good writing' when it's an obvious silly nonsense kids show.

[Pterobat]

Well, good writing is fine and dandy, and of course, one can't also say that just because 'it's for girls' it CAN'T have good writing.... but yeah, show obviously tailored for little girls.... kinda weird and somewhat creepy having so many old adult males into it. I'll just never get it. It's like me liking the sponge because 'oh it has good writing' when it's an obvious silly nonsense kids show.

Personally I tried really hard to get into the MLP show and I couldn't do it. I think it's because it's competent, and well-animated, but it doesn't match my tastes for cartoons: I like things a little more bizarre and subversive, even if it's an undercurrent in a kid's show.

I really enjoy Adventure Time and Steven Universe, f'r instance.

As far as explicit girl's franchises go, though, I really like Monster High. I have a lot of the dolls, and have watched many of the web cartoons.

[Luckyday]

Personally I tried really hard to get into the MLP show and I couldn't do it. I think it's because it's competent, and well-animated, but it doesn't match my tastes for cartoons: I like things a little more bizarre and subversive, even if it's an undercurrent in a kid's show.

I really enjoy Adventure Time and Steven Universe, f'r instance.

As far as explicit girl's franchises go, though, I really like Monster High. I have a lot of the dolls, and have watched many of the web cartoons.

Oh god. Adventure Time. I'm sorry if I'm getting off topic but Adventure Time! God damn! it so haunting and twisted. I love it.

It just does so well what Nick TMNT tries to do with its emotional scenes.
http://img.pandawhale.com/38351-Finn-and-the-Flame-Princess-in-aECD.gif
http://31.media.tumblr.com/c8ddd8ad2fd10ea3c875826cd706c71d/tumblr_my6i60M0Oy1s3n42so1_500.gif
http://33.media.tumblr.com/8875e4e19feee04faf3d4e71897b37cb/tumblr_n290hgGykR1rd0rbzo1_500.gif

[Refractive Reflections]

It's false to say people need reminding that female characters don't have to "kick ass" to be strong. It's already common enough to believe/know that exact thing.

...


I'm confused now... So where exactly are you jumping to now? First, you say:
Ugh.

I hate this idea that if you're being critical of a non-fighting female character's portrayal, it's like you don't understand that "women can be strong in other ways besides being able to fight". Knowing that about female characters is a given--that's how most female characters were portrayed up until recently.

Then you redefine your position with this:

What I mean to say is that traditionally feminine female characters were/are not viewed maliciously by media and culture. It was just the way women were "supposed to be", and being traditionally feminine was also considered to provide female characters with unique virtues (i.e. the "Angel in the House").

By and large, no media consumer needs to be taught to value traditionally feminine women, because the media already values them. The culture at large already understands that a woman character doesn't need to fight to be strong and valued.


Now you are reverting back to the vague generalization with this position:
It's false to say people need reminding that female characters don't have to "kick ass" to be strong. It's already common enough to believe/know that exact thing.

Likewise, I know what a character (male or female) in an action series who doesn't fight but is nonetheless interesting and useful looks like, but OT April ain't it. It's never been about the fact that she can't pick up a katana and go to town, but about how she fails in the niche the series puts her in.


So what strength are you talking about now? You first made this "strength" issue as something general, then you made it specific toward valuing the virtue of women and their traditional archetypes, and now you are going back to your vague generalization of society knowing women are strong outside of fighting. So how are you defining "strong" or "strength" this time? Can you provide a concrete, specific standpoint about female strength?

Besides if it's such "common knowledge" in society that women are strong and competent outside of fighting, then there's some very subtle societal disconnects with that assessment with recent shows that make female empowerment and equality as part of the tension, enthusiasm, and drama of television shows like NBC's Commander in Chief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander_in_Chief_%28TV_series%29) or CBS' Madam Secretary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madam_Secretary_%28TV_series%29).
The commercial for Madam Secretary makes being a "woman" in power as the enticement to watch:
ZttHcUO5ND0

Furthermore, we even have Verizon encouraging girls to pursue math and science-related fields that are currently dominated by men, which points out the subtle conceptions society has toward girls (viewing them from an aesthetic standpoint rather than their intellectual curiosity):
XP3cyRRAfX0

...So maybe society does need to be reminded that girls/women can be mentally/emotionally strong and competent as boys/men, rather than proving it in a cliche manner with physical combativeness.


Likewise, I know what a character (male or female) in an action series who doesn't fight but is nonetheless interesting and useful looks like, but OT April ain't it. It's never been about the fact that she can't pick up a katana and go to town, but about how she fails in the niche the series puts her in.

It's obtuse to argue that the problems with OT April would vanish if one took into account that "she's not a fighter" and "she doesn't have to be perfect". All this is considered, and her moments of intelligence, bravery, and curiosity are still outweighed by how many times she gets kidnapped, threatened, etc.

You can't compare Vernon to April, because Vernon is meant to be a wimp/comic relief, and he's balanced out by other male characters who are stronger. April is one of the few female characters, and her peril is meant to be taken seriously.

When April places herself into dangerous situations and gets captured, it's not an "occupational hazard" but:

Yeah, that. That's always the vibe I got off OT April. She didn't investigate and get captured because she was brave and would do anything for a story, but because that was what had to happen to "The Girl", because every time she left the studio, that was what happened to "The Girl".

Well there is a saying called "curiosity killed the cat", and considering her career calls for such curiosity, it's no wonder why she was frequently involved in such perilous situations.

I see it more from the perspective of the career that OT April has chosen rather than being "the girl". By that particular logic of "curiosity victimization", which apparently applies to all careers, it would make as much sense as calling a detective or police officer a "character victim", just because she was shot at, abducted, or harmed several times when the career demanded her to curiously investigate the criminal underworld, knowing full well the risks associated with choosing that career, even when her male colleagues and boss (Vernon, Burne), and even male civilians (Zach, Kerma), experienced a similar amount of "victimization" when they themselves appeared on the show and were just as curious.

[Prowler]

I don't get the whole MLP craze among adult males either. I can understand liking a cartoon for kids/teenagers. But liking a cartoon which target is what? 5 to 8 years old girls? And even if it has good writing it's still a cartoon for little girls. Is that good enough to keep an adult's interest?

Anyway, girls are more likely to watch "boy shows" than the other way around. Back in my childhood, the only "girl cartoon" that boys weren't embarrassed to admit they watched was Power Puff Girls. But that's because it was an action show and the girls weren't any different from any male superhero.

Some guys also liked Sailor Moon later. I remember guys making up excuses for watching Sailor Moon just to check their transformations and panty shots.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

April weak? Remember the episode where she physically drags Vernon from the news office to have him help pursue a story? :twink:

Yes, Irma is weak and ditzy, but she's supposed to be comic relief.

[Warhorse]

Personally I tried really hard to get into the MLP show and I couldn't do it. I think it's because it's competent, and well-animated, but it doesn't match my tastes for cartoons: I like things a little more bizarre and subversive, even if it's an undercurrent in a kid's show.

I really enjoy Adventure Time and Steven Universe, f'r instance.

As far as explicit girl's franchises go, though, I really like Monster High. I have a lot of the dolls, and have watched many of the web cartoons.

Heh, I collected a few of them back in the 80's when I was a little girl (hey, I love horses, so a My Little Pony and Breyers Horses is a must in any horse lover's collection) and while I remember a few tidbits from movies, I don't remember the show much at all. I think I liked Rainbow Brite more.

But damn, I do remember this.

P4TedkQP_hM

[IndigoErth]

But damn, I do remember this.
Oh wow, there's some nostalgia! Somewhere in old toys in the attic I have a little plastic Sea Pony. Did come across my fave (not that I had more than one or two) My Little Pony toy recently, who is... if I look online again, Firefly. Shame the old ones aren't/can't be used in the new show. I assume her heir apparent is Rainbow Dash.

[Pterobat]

My position's pretty consistent: from the start, you're arguing from the viewpoint that *if only* someone understood April is strong and useful in non-fighting ways, no one would have had a problem with her. Because women characters don't have to fight to be good characters, and women characters can still be in peril sometimes, without it making them weak.

I'm just saying I know all that, but OT April still doesn't cut the mustard because she's the damsel in distress much too often, and it's not because of her bravery, and not balanced by the male characters.

I wanted to like her, but I just can't.

Speaking of Adventure Time, Princess Bubblegum is probably an example of the kind of woman character who doesn't fight but is appealing: she gets rescued by Finn a lot in the earlier episodes, and doesn't fight monsters, but has excellent science skills, and a fun characterization that makes her one of my favourites.

[Mona_Lisa]

I really hope I won't be destroyed for asking this question, but I've noticed that there is an unusually high number of females on this forum. Compare it to sites like comic vine, comic book resources etc which are hugely male-dominated.

I'm happy about this, as the more the merrier, and the wider variety of people the merrier, but I was wondering why this is. Some people might say it's because the turtles are seen as more 'kiddy' than Marvel or DC, but I find that hugely demeaning and intellectually insulting towards women. Some of the most intelligent posters on the forum seem to be women, particularly academically speaking. There are a few women on this forum who seem to have a major academic background. I won't name them but it's pretty obvious who one or two of them are.

So what's the reason(s)? Why do the turtles attract more females than Batman or the Avengers etc?

I don't know, I think as a kid I could really identify with the characters more... I was an outcast, I felt isolated.... I had a strong rivalry with my oldest sister but was very protective with my two younger sisters (Raph family dynamic)...

Also That was what was cool and on tv while I grew up! I had like 3 channels!!! 2 of them were always playing the same thing just at diff times. Saturday morning was the ONLY time you could see cartoons on tv. Sleep in on Saturday? H*ll no!!!! The teenage mutant ninja turtles was the best Saturday morning cartoon hands down. And I just became addicted...

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Heh, I collected a few of them back in the 80's when I was a little girl (hey, I love horses, so a My Little Pony and Breyers Horses is a must in any horse lover's collection) and while I remember a few tidbits from movies, I don't remember the show much at all. I think I liked Rainbow Brite more.

But damn, I do remember this.

P4TedkQP_hM


Heh, I remember them, as well. In fact, I had nearly ALL of the MLP's from those days (my parental inclination toward only buying me "girl toys" being what it was, and I WAS into MLP for a time) including Lucky, the only MALE pony ever produced! (At least at the time.) The only way one could even get him was to send in enough of the "horseshoe points" off the backs of the packages. I ended up getting not only him, but TWO of the Baby Ponies, too. Lucky (heh, that name is SOOO bad, now that I think about it again) was blue with a horseshoe symbol on his hindquarters.

In regard to which ponies from the 80's can/can't be used now, I was not aware there was any restriction, as I do recognize several of the "new" ones from when I was little. Applejack, Cherries Jubilee(IIRC), Rainbow Dash (her name might be slightly changed from what it was, but I seem to recall her, in addition to Firefly. There was a quite bit of similarity with some of the ponies....) and the unicorn with the purple/blue mane who USED to be called Twilight, to name a few. Her name may be different now, but it's still her. There may be others, but I can't recall off-hand how many I've seen that were around then. I'm sure if I was still into them, I'd probably recognize a lot more. They seem to have just changed some of the names, and added some new ones.

Sea ponies- Surf Rider, Wavedancer, Sea Shimmer, Beachcomber- I think I had most of the sea ponies, even a couple of the baby ones!

[IndigoErth]

I dunno, I thought I recalled looking it up once and supposedly they couldn't be used, but you might be right.

I have to say though, the first time I ever saw a clip of it online, I thought it was some person's idea of a weird parody. And then I found it it was legit. o.O :lol:

The only way one could even get him was to send in enough of the "horseshoe points" off the backs of the packages.
Ah, so the ladies got a mail order stallion then. :lol:

I remember those horse shoes, but don't think I ever really knew what it was for.

[jenna]

This is an interesting thread. I don't know if I can truly address Davetello's question because I am not overly familiar with other fandoms.

What strikes me is that the ones I am uninterested in are the ones which focus almost entirely on action.

I can only speak for myself, but.... my personal observation is that many women appreciate depth. For me, in any creative expression I look for layers and complexity. Books, film, performance, acting, dance, art etc.

TMNT has never been about anything superficial. It all stems from a backstory of grief and the need for vengeance. These are emotional triggers, rather than physical ones. Substance is reflected in everything: the turtles' characters, the Japanese culture and backstory, the presence of martial arts (in itself an exquisitely beautiful art form) and the zen and philosophical side of that.

Even with today's appetite for instant gratification and high-action, the need for substance was recognised by the makers of the new film. They put that Raphael speech in there for a reason, and for me it was a satisfying addition to the action because it provided depth.

In addition to having substance, the characters are relatable on an emotional level as well as at face-value. The characters are what has kept me hooked on turtles since I was, what... seven? It's not just a case of: Leader, mechanic, cool-but-rude, party-dude. Each of them has something internal that motivates them, complicates them, makes them fascinating.

I personally think that many women will respond to this because it can then become an analytical and emotional exercise at the same time. Many men will find this appealing too.

For me, the elements of TMNT which always fall flat are the parts which lack real depth and meaning. Fast Forward was a big shock, and in other incarnations the inter-dimensional stuff, the alien / monster stuff. For me it all feels a lot less relatable and it doesn't interest me at all.

There are positive female characters: It is absolute rubbish that girls don't like April. I love April. She is feisty, strong, and in a world where women who are deemed attractive are either blonde or dark-haired, she is often a red-head which sets her aside from the crowd. Karai is also a really appealing female character.

I honestly can't tell you if I fell in love the franchise because it appealed to me as a female, or if it appealed to me because I related to the themes of alienation. In my circles of friends I always have been and continue to be the one who is different from everybody else. It's an alienating feeling. Maybe that is what drew me in in the first instance, but certainly it is all of the above that has kept me following TMNT for 25 years.

[Netkeeper]

In addition to having substance, the characters are relatable on an emotional level as well as at face-value. The characters are what has kept me hooked on turtles since I was, what... seven? It's not just a case of: Leader, mechanic, cool-but-rude, party-dude. Each of them has something internal that motivates them, complicates them, makes them fascinating.
This is one of the best parts about the series, in my eyes. It takes basic character types, which are relatable on their base levels, and expands upon them gradually. You can pick out what type of personality each turtle has just from seeing them on the screen for a few seconds. But at the same time, they are so much more than that.

[jenna]

This is one of the best parts about the series, in my eyes. It takes basic character types, which are relatable on their base levels, and expands upon them gradually. You can pick out what type of personality each turtle has just from seeing them on the screen for a few seconds. But at the same time, they are so much more than that.

Totally! At their core they are well-established temperament archetypes. It's so interesting. :)

[Lil Karai]

I also notice most female fans don't like April, and I'm talking any incarnation of her. 80's April, 4kids April, Nick April...I remember talking with them when those shows were airing.

Their opinion on April was always, "Eh" or "I don't like her much."

Kinda odd since April is supposed to be aimed at female fans in every incarnation, yet female fans don't care for her.

I enjoy the current incarnation of April in the Nick cartoon. It's nice to see a female character that adds something to the team other than the traditional "damsel in distress" role. I'm loving this April's ass kicking ability and personality.

To answer the original question posed in this thread, I've been interested in TMNT since 4th grade. I think I was just unusual already though because I was also totally into GI Joe as well. I've always been into martial arts and reptiles and well, TMNT is the most amazing combination of both!

A few years ago as I was helping my mom pack up our family home (they were moving), I found some drawings I had done of Donatello. Remembering how into TMNT I had been when I was younger fueled this insatiable desire to totally get back into TMNT again! I researched all the incarnations I had missed over the years, researched all the collectibles past and present, and dedicated some shelves to displaying action figures and vinyl pieces.

I'm SO into the direction the current comics and the Nick show have taken the turtles, especially from an artistic standpoint. It's a very satisfying and exciting time to be a TMNT fan!

[Lisardo]

I always liked April, esp. the OT version, with her feisty, adventurous spirit!

Tho my answer to the original question: I like TMNT so much because of the story, depth, lightheartedness, bravery, and the mysteriousness of the characters. I find myself drawn to male superhero characters a lot, and not just TMNT. Also Batman, Spiderman, Wolverine, etc. Something about those kind of characters is so attractive to me. I suppose TMNT has lot of diversity because there's 4 different characters, whose personalities all bounce off one another.

Tho I'm not exactly into the slash crap you find on DA or Rule34 either.

[Luckyday]

I only have a problem with nick April, but I really like the others except for OT and that's only because I never watch it so I can't give my opinion on her character.

Mirage: She was more of a supporting character but she has her moments.
2k3: Was pretty cool. She was the oracle of the group.
IDW: Is simply my favorite version. She has the best parts of all versions with being really resourceful, caring, smart, down to earth and her willingness to part of the action. She even had a moment where she fought along aside the turtles with Harold's gadget. She never had to be a ninja or a alien. She can just be herself and that is why I really love this version of her.

[Rooish]

Totally! At their core they are well-established temperament archetypes. It's so interesting. :)

I agree--although to be honest I don't know which is which. Megan Fox astounded me by being super intelligent and talking about the temperaments. She called Raph choleric, Mikey sanguine, Don phlegmatic and Leo melancholic. Wikipedia says the four temperaments are sanguine (pleasure-seeking and sociable), choleric (ambitious and leader-like), melancholic (analytical and quiet), and phlegmatic (relaxed and peaceful). This doesn't quite match the Turtles.

Mikey is obviously sanguine, although I think in Mirage he was actually more phlegmatic. Then Donatello--is he analytical and quiet or relaxed and peaceful (melancholic or phlegmatic)? I think he would be more likely to be melancholic and Leonardo to be phlegmatic--except some Leos are more serene than others. Choleric implies leadership skills but also egotism, ambition and restlessness. Depending on the version of the Turtles, both Leo and Raph are choleric (although Raph more so). Melancholic also suggests "preoccupied with the tragedy and cruelty in the world and are susceptible to depression and moodiness"--is that Raph? Don? Leo? Which Turtle is the most depressive and moody? It's only Leo in City at War--no other time really. So I wouldn't say he's melancholic.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, was looking at that stuff the other day and not really a perfect match for any of them imo, though I'm not sure one single category is really how that stuff is supped to work anyhow. Maybe just leanings toward one more than another.

Leo and Donnie in particular both seem a bit interchangeable on the ones they seem most often to be labeled with.

I tend to avoid labeling Leo with something based too much simply on the role he bears the burden of, he may be leader but many choleric traits certainly sound to fit Raph more than it does him. Looking past the leadership, how he (Leo) carries himself otherwise, the phlegmatic/melancholic do seem to fit him as well. Honestly he seems to me to have a lot of the hallmarks of an introverted leader, despite the internet seeming so sure he's an extrovert 'because leader' and false assumptions about introverts.

Raph may not have the leadership role the choleric traits suggest, though if he could control himself a lot better and settle down some he probably would have the makings for a decent leader.

Mikey with sanguine seems to be the only one with a clear fit.

[Rooish]

I tend to avoid labeling Leo with something based too much simply on the role he bears the burden of, he may be leader but many choleric traits certainly sound to fit Raph more than it does him. Looking past the leadership, how he carries himself otherwise, the phlegmatic/melancholic do seem to fit him as well. Honestly he seems to me to have a lot of the hallmarks of an introverted leader, despite the internet seeming so sure he's an extrovert 'because leader' and false assumptions about introverts.

Oh. I hate false assumptions about introverts. Leo and Don are certainly introverts. Do you think Raph is?

Raph may not have the leadership role the choleric traits suggest, though if he could control himself a lot better and settle down some he probably would have the makings for a decent leader.

Maybe--but it's kind of speculation since we've barely ever seen it. He did okay in the 2007 movie. I think Donnie would make a good leader too. But I'd never interpret him as choleric, even if he gets really pissed off at times.

[BubblyShell22]

I think I got into the Turtles because in our house we had one TV and whatever was on is what we watched. We watched TMNT but we also watched Care Bears, Rainbow Brite, Bravestarr, Dinosaucers, and MLP. I've always loved the Turtles just because it's a cool story and Leo has always been my favorite of the brothers. Now as I'm older, I understand more about him and feel I can relate to him more. When I was younger, I saw Leo as my best friend or an older brother figure, but now that I'm older, I feel more maternal toward him and the others, though I also still feel like I could be their friend, too. And I do joke around that Leo's kind of cute, too. :)

As for MLP, I had two male ponies. One was named Leaper and had a frog on his side and I also had a family of ponies that are probably the Applejack family, though we called them the Apple Delight family. The sea ponies were cool, but I loved the Flutter Ponies the best and also some of the baby ponies (Baby Sundance and Sundance were my favorite ponies).

[Warhorse]

Oh. I hate false assumptions about introverts. Leo and Don are certainly introverts. Do you think Raph is?



Maybe--but it's kind of speculation since we've barely ever seen it. He did okay in the 2007 movie. I think Donnie would make a good leader too. But I'd never interpret him as choleric, even if he gets really pissed off at times.

Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way. Maybe Raph isn't a good leader to a team, but he's a good leader to himself, and is the one most likely to be off on his own and having to rely on his own wit to get himself out of a jam. In a sense, I feel the same way. I can never be a leader, I simply do not have the temper for it. But, I'm not one to be a blindless follower either. In fact, I prefer to work alone.

[PangolinFeets]

IDW: Is simply my favorite version. She has the best parts of all versions with being really resourceful, caring, smart, down to earth and her willingness to part of the action. She even had a moment where she fought along aside the turtles with Harold's gadget. She never had to be a ninja or a alien. She can just be herself and that is why I really love this version of her.

Totally agree. She's so fantastic. Never before have I actually been excited to see what happens next with April.

Actually, I feel that way about everyone in IDW. I love Angel and Casey too and I've just never cared that much about the human characters in the TMNT universe. Its just that good.

[IndigoErth]

Oh. I hate false assumptions about introverts. Leo and Don are certainly introverts. Do you think Raph is?
Raph is a harder one to place imo.

He might tend to come across as a bit of a loner, but my question is what's his purpose for it? Not sure if he is someone who does it to go recharge the way Leo might go off and meditate or Donnie might go quietly get engrossed in some project.

In the right mood does he get charged up by social contact and excitement, or does it wear him out? Does he seek novelty and risk or is he content with the same old thing?

They added the Nightwatcher bit to him, so he's off on his own with that. But at the same time, rather than simply watching over the city and doing it for total aloneness he's actively seeking risk and fighting crime which naturally seeks interaction with both good and bad humans in the process.

Think I'd lean toward extrovert on him, albeit an aloof one. Or ambivert?

Maybe--but it's kind of speculation since we've barely ever seen it.
Fair enough.

Maybe we are looking at it the wrong way. Maybe Raph isn't a good leader to a team, but he's a good leader to himself, and is the one most likely to be off on his own and having to rely on his own wit to get himself out of a jam. In a sense, I feel the same way. I can never be a leader, I simply do not have the temper for it. But, I'm not one to be a blindless follower either. In fact, I prefer to work alone.
Good way of looking at it. Leader of one. I tend to look at myself that way; I certainly don't have much of a leader of others in me, unless it's simply done by example and they keep a distance...lol

[Coola Yagami]

Raph is a harder one to place imo.

He might tend to come across as a bit of a loner, but my question is what's his purpose for it? Not sure if he is someone who does it to go recharge the way Leo might go off and meditate or Donnie might go quietly get engrossed in some project.

In the right mood does he get charged up by social contact and excitement, or does it wear him out? Does he seek novelty and risk or is he content with the same old thing?

They added the Nightwatcher bit to him, so he's off on his own with that. But at the same time, rather than simply watching over the city and doing it for total aloneness he's actively seeking risk and fighting crime which naturally seeks interaction with both good and bad humans in the process.

Think I'd lean toward extrovert on him, albeit an aloof one. Or ambivert?


Fair enough.


Good way of looking at it. Leader of one. I tend to look at myself that way; I certainly don't have much of a leader of others in me, unless it's simply done by example and they keep a distance...lol

Well the Nightwatcher bit was more about Splinter forbidding them from fighting crime and Raph thinking 'well... crime doesn't take a break, it needs SOMEONE to stop it' and went off in disguise to do it.

[Netkeeper]

Ohhhh, temperaments, you're getting into stuff I love talking about now! :V

http://i.imgur.com/hmEfHlm.png
Do I really need to post any more than this image to prove that, yes, Leo is Melancholic, Raph is Choleric, Don is Phlegmatic, and Mikey is Sanguine?

I'll do so anyway. Some of my favourite pages to read regarding this subject: [x (http://www.fighunter.com/index.php?page=temperaments)], [x (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FourTemperamentEnsemble)], [x (http://temperaments.fighunter.com/)]

Leo as Melancholic: Introverted without a doubt. Very task oriented. Can become obsessed with perfection. Often blames self when it's not entirely his fault or even his fault at all. Can be very critical of self. Has high standards and expects himself to meet them. Keeps emotions internal. Plans first before taking action. Trust issues. This temperament also represents middle-aged adulthood, as a note. "an excellent candidate for The Leader."

Raph as Choleric: Introversion vs extroversion can be debated, and probably depends on continuity but that isn't really the point, everything else fits like a three-fingered glove. Likes to be in charge and dislikes being wrong, which is why he butts heads with Leo. Arrogant. Dominant. Easily angered, but otherwise internally emotional. Blames others, not self. Forceful. Doesn't show perceived weakness.

Don as Phlegmatic: Introverted. Inoffensive. Submissive. Hides his emotions. Patient. Plays a support role more often than an active one. Doesn't like change but would rather change than cause conflict. Blames himself more often than others. Would probably classify him as a pessimist. Admittedly this one doesn't always fit as well either because he's not shy by any means, but he is often interpreted as socially awkward to varying extents.

Mike as Sanguine: Extroverted. Loves fun. Not a brooder. Social. Impulsive. Easily distracted. Loves attention. Dramatic. High self-esteem. Quick reactions. Optimist. This temperament also represents young childhood, as a note. Don't really feel the need to elaborate on this one because it's the most obvious.

[Luckyday]

Totally agree. She's so fantastic. Never before have I actually been excited to see what happens next with April.

Actually, I feel that way about everyone in IDW. I love Angel and Casey too and I've just never cared that much about the human characters in the TMNT universe. Its just that good.

Yup, everybody in there has a lot of character potential and that the thing was really missing in the Nick's TMNT. IDW is just simple brimming with character development and moments of reflection.

Reading IDW has help me understand why people hate Nick's Casey and adore IDW's Casey. Nick's Casey has style but IDW's has substance and weight.

[Warhorse]

Well the Nightwatcher bit was more about Splinter forbidding them from fighting crime and Raph thinking 'well... crime doesn't take a break, it needs SOMEONE to stop it' and went off in disguise to do it.

Nightwatcher is classic Raphael. The one who doesn't like being told what to do and will rebel if he must.

[pennydreadful]

I haven't really noticed a higher number of women in the Turtles fandom than in any other fandom I'm in/aware of/regularly brushing shoulders with online (Gargoyles, Supernatural, Dr Who, Star Wars, Marvel/DC movies and comics, Harry Potter). That being said, it could be the fanspaces that I tend to frequent - maybe I tend to gravitate towards those that have a higher concentration of women. Or it could just be those specific fandoms. *shrugs* I dunno.

I think there's a large chunk of men in the MLP:FiM fandom, but they're also more visible than the women in the MLP fandom thanks to the advent of brony culture. More attention is paid to the notion of men being into something intended for girls, as an activity/hobby which is seen as de-masculinizing is seen as more radical than women being into something that's for boys - hence bronies get a documentary about them, but adult women who've been into MLP since Gen 1 get no mention.

This is just my perspective/opinion as someone outside the MLP:FiM fanbase though; others may not necessarily agree.

I will say that I do feel there's a marked difference in the atmosphere of a mostly-women fanspace as opposed to a more mixed one like the 'drome though.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

As for MLP, I had two male ponies. One was named Leaper and had a frog on his side and I also had a family of ponies that are probably the Applejack family, though we called them the Apple Delight family. The sea ponies were cool, but I loved the Flutter Ponies the best and also some of the baby ponies (Baby Sundance and Sundance were my favorite ponies).


I gave up on MLP before any of those "bronies" were introduced- at the time, Lucky was the ONLY male pony. I did have the Flutter Ponies (they were my faves too!)

[Refractive Reflections]

My position's pretty consistent: from the start, you're arguing from the viewpoint that *if only* someone understood April is strong and useful in non-fighting ways, no one would have had a problem with her. Because women characters don't have to fight to be good characters, and women characters can still be in peril sometimes, without it making them weak.

I'm just saying I know all that, but OT April still doesn't cut the mustard because she's the damsel in distress much too often, and it's not because of her bravery, and not balanced by the male characters.

I wanted to like her, but I just can't.

It's fine if you don't like her character, the main thing I was arguing was that people immediately jump into calling her as a "damsel in distress" when her risk-taking, life-threatening curiosity called for being in danger (rather than some helpless trophy like 2012 April was for the Kraang), and questioned if OT April was a guy would people be that prone to calling the character a "damsel in distress"?

Yeah, people forget that she was an investigative reporter looking into the criminal underworld after all, with an overbearing, demanding boss. I'm pretty sure if OT April was a male, "he" would be considered either adventurous, courageous, or maybe foolish (depending on one's comfort level of risk), but somewhat praised for risking "his" life for the news story to bring down the criminal operation, but not weak in the sense of "damsel in distress". But I guess since she's pretty, has a curvy figure, and has been a staple in Rule 34 obscene TMNT fanart, it's superficially easy to classify her into that category.

I brought up characters like Kerma and Zach, because they are kidnapped almost as frequently when they do show up:

The thing that's annoying to me is that it plays into the shallow notion of, since she's not as physically intimidating (physically fighting or brute strength) as the guys, she's somehow a "weak" character overall. It supports the cynical perspective that men will only take women seriously if they can physically harm them, or if they are a threat to them somehow.

I mean OT Kerma was a bigger "weakling" than OT April ever was, but he doesn't seem to have the embarrassing male equivalent title to "damsel in distress", but yet he's elevated as the noble pacifist. Zach was just as scrappy, loyal to the Turtles, and kidnap-prone as April, yet I don't notice anybody calling him a "weakling", or something close to being a "damsel in distress" either, with Zach being kidnapped almost all the time whenever he did show up in the series.


That's why I brought up this notion:


That's why I consider it a lowbrow move in my perspective when they try to make April a ninja-wannabe, especially when she develops skills that rival the Turtles. Now I'm not saying I'm against fighting female characters since I enjoy characters like Karai and Lotus, but what I'm emphasizing is that it seems the female characters (especially the attractive ones) are pressured to be physically intimidating in order to be taken seriously as a "strong" character in itself (to step out of the confining "love interest" or "damsel in distress" label), unlike the male characters who don't have that heavy amount of pressure to "prove themselves", especially in action/adventure cartoons. ...And if a cartoon has to pander to that notion to make most or every female a physical threat just to be taken seriously, then I probably won't think too highly of it. It demeans and belittles the female character's intelligence, personality, talents and skills (outside of fighting) as being unimportant/irrelevant.

Because I don't see people calling Zach, Kerma, or Burne (who are all male characters) something as demeaning as the male equivalent of "damsel in distress" when they are kidnapped just as frequently when they do show up, while seemingly ignoring the fact of all of her other skills in helping the Turtles in protecting the OT Turtles in terms of their public image (i.e. "Turtles on Trial" and the Red Sky Seasons), and providing background information about the criminals the Turtles are pursuing that the Turtles probably couldn't extract as easily by themselves. And still she has that demeaning title of "damsel in distress" when she's proven to be more useful than Burne, Zach, and Kerma?


Then you responded to the notion I brought up using broad societal terms, outside of the entire OT April "damsel in distress" debate:

Ugh.

I hate this idea that if you're being critical of a non-fighting female character's portrayal, it's like you don't understand that "women can be strong in other ways besides being able to fight". Knowing that about female characters is a given--that's how most female characters were portrayed up until recently.

It's also a given that everyone knows a character can't be perfect all the time. Criticizing April is coming from the natural understanding that everybody knows these two things.


Notice you are using general and broad terms like "that's how most female characters were portrayed up until recently" and "everybody knows these two things."

Then I posted that history doesn't reflect that (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1368156&postcount=122), then you continued this broad argument outside of the OT April debate even further:

What I mean to say is that traditionally feminine female characters were/are not viewed maliciously by media and culture. It was just the way women were "supposed to be", and being traditionally feminine was also considered to provide female characters with unique virtues (i.e. the "Angel in the House").

By and large, no media consumer needs to be taught to value traditionally feminine women, because the media already values them. The culture at large already understands that a woman character doesn't need to fight to be strong and valued.

You use more general and broad terms like "By and large, no media consumer needs" and "the media already values them".

Then I pointed out that belief falls in "benevolent sexism" (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1368726&postcount=125) which has been already prevalent in history, but my argument was referring more in terms of subtle "hostile sexism".

Then you partially ignored my response, & regressed to your general statement:

It's false to say people need reminding that female characters don't have to "kick ass" to be strong. It's already common enough to believe/know that exact thing.

Likewise, I know what a character (male or female) in an action series who doesn't fight but is nonetheless interesting and useful looks like, but OT April ain't it. It's never been about the fact that she can't pick up a katana and go to town, but about how she fails in the niche the series puts her in.


Now here with "people", "female characters", "common enough to believe/know"; and I gave a couple of examples (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1370001&postcount=138) of how female mental/emotional strength and competency have to be promoted STILL in the media.


Yes, your position has been consistent about OT April, but your argument outside of that, about society's perceptions of female mental/emotional strength and competency has been unsupported, consciously neglected, and shifting from you when I have given opposing examples and counterarguments against your broad societal notion(s) of:

Ugh.

I hate this idea that if you're being critical of a non-fighting female character's portrayal, it's like you don't understand that "women can be strong in other ways besides being able to fight". Knowing that about female characters is a given--that's how most female characters were portrayed up until recently.

What I mean to say is that traditionally feminine female characters were/are not viewed maliciously by media and culture. It was just the way women were "supposed to be", and being traditionally feminine was also considered to provide female characters with unique virtues (i.e. the "Angel in the House").

By and large, no media consumer needs to be taught to value traditionally feminine women, because the media already values them. The culture at large already understands that a woman character doesn't need to fight to be strong and valued.

It's false to say people need reminding that female characters don't have to "kick ass" to be strong. It's already common enough to believe/know that exact thing.


...Or whatever or however you're calling it now this time.

But if you aren't bothering to address these details and examples that I, and even IndigoErth brought up (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1368730&postcount=126), and still continue to tout your notion as a generally understood fact (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?p=1369106#post1369106) even after responses have invalidated it, then clearly it's pointless for me to continue when you aren't serious enough to respond and defend your broad societal notion (which you repeated three times by the way), and shown to skirt around those specific points time and time again Pterobat.

[jenna]

Leo as Melancholic: Introverted without a doubt. Very task oriented. Can become obsessed with perfection. Often blames self when it's not entirely his fault or even his fault at all. Can be very critical of self. Has high standards and expects himself to meet them. Keeps emotions internal. Plans first before taking action. Trust issues. This temperament also represents middle-aged adulthood, as a note. "an excellent candidate for The Leader."

Raph as Choleric: Introversion vs extroversion can be debated, and probably depends on continuity but that isn't really the point, everything else fits like a three-fingered glove. Likes to be in charge and dislikes being wrong, which is why he butts heads with Leo. Arrogant. Dominant. Easily angered, but otherwise internally emotional. Blames others, not self. Forceful. Doesn't show perceived weakness.

Don as Phlegmatic: Introverted. Inoffensive. Submissive. Hides his emotions. Patient. Plays a support role more often than an active one. Doesn't like change but would rather change than cause conflict. Blames himself more often than others. Would probably classify him as a pessimist. Admittedly this one doesn't always fit as well either because he's not shy by any means, but he is often interpreted as socially awkward to varying extents.

Mike as Sanguine: Extroverted. Loves fun. Not a brooder. Social. Impulsive. Easily distracted. Loves attention. Dramatic. High self-esteem. Quick reactions. Optimist. This temperament also represents young childhood, as a note. Don't really feel the need to elaborate on this one because it's the most obvious.

:) :) :)

Raph is a harder one to place imo.

He might tend to come across as a bit of a loner, but my question is what's his purpose for it? Not sure if he is someone who does it to go recharge the way Leo might go off and meditate or Donnie might go quietly get engrossed in some project.

In the right mood does he get charged up by social contact and excitement, or does it wear him out? Does he seek novelty and risk or is he content with the same old thing?



This. I feel that Raphael gets his energy internally, which is why he so frequently storms off to recharge, or why he is often shown to go out on his own. My personal take is that Raphael is an introvert for this reason.

However, the characters have had 30 years of evolution - it's inevitable that they would not totally conform to archetypes, but have them at the core.

Another personality theory that can be related is Belbin:

Co-ordinator (Leo) - stable, extrovert, disciplined with natural authority, dominant but not domineering
Networker (Mikey) - likeable, sociable, relaxed, enthusiastic, easily bored
Shaper (Raph) - extrovert (?), energetic, self-confident, anxious, impulsive, may be aggressive, high need for control
Monitor (Don) - High IQ, analytical, solid, dependable, can work alone, introvert

It's SOOOOO interesting.

All of that said, there is no need to pigeon-hole characters based on their roles or these traits alone. They have 30 years of development in the making, but it is interesting as a start point.

But back on topic.... could it be that this little branch that has developed in this thread is one of the reasons many women love TMNT? Many women naturally apply analytical thinking and there is just so much to dig into in TMNT?

[Netkeeper]

I think there's a large chunk of men in the MLP:FiM fandom, but they're also more visible than the women in the MLP fandom thanks to the advent of brony culture. More attention is paid to the notion of men being into something intended for girls, as an activity/hobby which is seen as de-masculinizing is seen as more radical than women being into something that's for boys - hence bronies get a documentary about them, but adult women who've been into MLP since Gen 1 get no mention.
It's an interesting phenomenon, isn't it? Bronies got a positive documentary when brony culture is disgusting and awful. Meanwhile the female fanbases surrounding franchises like Transformers, Metal Gear, and others, get regarded as ****ing crazy or don't get acknowledged at all. And they aren't difficult to find, either, so this isn't some "underground" thing.

Also, your experience with the gender ratio of a fandom might be related to where you frequent on the internet. Forums and Reddit are more likely to have a more masculine presence, while Tumblr, deviantArt, and journal sites are more likely to have a feminine one. [Conventions and meet ups fit in somewhere too, but I've never been able to afford to go to any of those aside from some Vampire the Masquerade LARP sessions, so I have no idea what kind of ratio those have.] There are always exceptions, naturally, but I find that the exceptions usually depend on the gender and inclusivity of the moderation rather than the marketing scheme for the franchise in question.

That said, dear god Penny. Supernatural, Dr Who, Star Wars, comics? You have a lot of hell to endure on the fannish side of things huh D: the worst I had to deal with was Sonic and Homestuck, which might have been arguably worse but at least I wasn't into both [I]at the same time.

Never touching the latter again, by the way. I got a taste of what being a "well known fan" was like, and it was so awful.

[plastroncafe]

You would think that Guys Who Are Really Into A Thing would be more sympathetic to their fellow geeks, but...no. You'd be wrong. Rather than be about inclusion, it's all about instituting a pecking order.

If something has a female fan-base it must be crap. It's only after it gets a male following that it's allowed to have merit.

No one would make fun of 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight if there was a dude-laden fandom. Just like how no one makes fun of the teenage girls who went gaga over The Beatles now...but they did back when they first "crossed the pond."

So we go and make our own spaces, and even those spaces are derided as being less than.

Maybe if we bought more toys...oh wait, they don't market toys to us...dangit.

[Warhorse]

Yup, everybody in there has a lot of character potential and that the thing was really missing in the Nick's TMNT. IDW is just simple brimming with character development and moments of reflection.

Reading IDW has help me understand why people hate Nick's Casey and adore IDW's Casey. Nick's Casey has style but IDW's has substance and weight.

I don't like Nick's Casey because he comes across as some guy who automatically assumes April is going to be his right from the start. Really, I get this vibe from him, if April's other friends weren't highly trained Ninjas that would protect her over anything, he would have tried to do something more forcefull a long time ago. That's the character that is coming across to me.

Funny thing, Raph and Casey are supposed to be a lot alike in temper, but yet Raph seems to be the more mature one, in realizing both him and Donnie are not exactly giving April the space she needs. I have my beef with the writers from time to time, but kudos to them for painting this kind of Raph, the one that realizes females aren't just pieces of meat for the guys to oogle over.

[Luckyday]

I don't like Nick's Casey because he comes across as some guy who automatically assumes April is going to be his right from the start. Really, I get this vibe from him, if April's other friends weren't highly trained Ninjas that would protect her over anything, he would have tried to do something more forcefull a long time ago. That's the character that is coming across to me.

Funny thing, Raph and Casey are supposed to be a lot alike in temper, but yet Raph seems to be the more mature one, in realizing both him and Donnie are not exactly giving April the space she needs. I have my beef with the writers from time to time, but kudos to them for painting this kind of Raph, the one that realizes females aren't just pieces of meat for the guys to oogle over.

I don't think the we were suppose to "root" for Casey but honestly the bad writing makes it hard for me to root for Donnie.

[Candy Kappa]

No one would make fun of 50 Shades of Grey or Twilight if there was a dude-laden fandom.

I donno, they are really problematic works of fiction. I'd hope they would be just as ridiculed if they where catered to dudes.

[Warhorse]

I don't think the we were suppose to "root" for Casey but honestly the bad writing makes it hard for me to root for Donnie.

They could go about it a better way than painting him as a dick. Donnie may be annoying, but, what got my eye brow raised was during Wormquake, and April was automatically assuming it was Casey that was rubbing her butt. Donnie may have his faults, but crossing that kind of line, has not been one of them.

[plastroncafe]

I donno, they are really problematic works of fiction. I'd hope they would be just as ridiculed if they where catered to dudes.

Oh I'm all for ridiculing them for their merits, or lack there of, but I'm speaking specifically of the people who dismiss them out of hand because they're popular with teen girls.

They make for great fic fodder, what with the source material being as it is.
The more horrible the canon, the better the fic.

They could go about it a better way than painting him as a dick. Donnie may be annoying, but, what got my eye brow raised was during Wormquake, and April was automatically assuming it was Casey that was rubbing her butt. Donnie may have his faults, but crossing that kind of line, has not been one of them.

I'm equally bothered by the fact that the writers have no problem with April calling Casey out on behavior he doesn't do, but not Donnie for things he actually does.

I mean...we finally get the payoff of Raph telling Donnie how he looks to EVERYONE, only to have the writers add that ending of "my mutant."

Bad form, writers. Bad form.

[Warhorse]

Oh I'm all for ridiculing them for their merits, or lack there of, but I'm speaking specifically of the people who dismiss them out of hand because they're popular with teen girls.

They make for great fic fodder, what with the source material being as it is.
The more horrible the canon, the better the fic.



I'm equally bothered by the fact that the writers have no problem with April calling Casey out on behavior he doesn't do, but not Donnie for things he actually does.

I mean...we finally get the payoff of Raph telling Donnie how he looks to EVERYONE, only to have the writers add that ending of "my mutant."

Bad form, writers. Bad form.

Well, Donnie's probably never touched April inappropriately, even off screen, to get that kind of reaction from April, while Casey probably has, and when Don does get creepy, like when he was talking about her through Metal Head, April does tell him that the thing isn't on mute. Now, the ending of Big Foot, it's either, the writers were planning on shutting down the crush once and for all, but seen how big of a fandom it's got so continued on playing it out, or maybe this April does have genuine feelings for Donnie, she's just confused by them because he is a mutant.

[pennydreadful]

Also, your experience with the gender ratio of a fandom might be related to where you frequent on the internet. Forums and Reddit are more likely to have a more masculine presence, while Tumblr, deviantArt, and journal sites are more likely to have a feminine one. [Conventions and meet ups fit in somewhere too, but I've never been able to afford to go to any of those aside from some Vampire the Masquerade LARP sessions, so I have no idea what kind of ratio those have.] There are always exceptions, naturally, but I find that the exceptions usually depend on the gender and inclusivity of the moderation rather than the marketing scheme for the franchise in question.

That said, dear god Penny. Supernatural, Dr Who, Star Wars, comics? You have a lot of hell to endure on the fannish side of things huh D: the worst I had to deal with was Sonic and Homestuck, which might have been arguably worse but at least I wasn't into both [I]at the same time.

LOL good point; I think I'd literally rather nail my genitals to a revolving door than go anywhere near Reddit.

As far as the Whovians and Supernatural fandoms being super-weird, I couldn't comment too much; I like both of the shows but don't interact with any of the fandom on those two fronts. :lol: Honestly, the vast majority of things I'm into, I tend to not talk directly with other fans much but will still enjoy fanart and fanfic. TMNT and Gargoyles being two of the major exceptions, where I do actually talk directly to other fans. That being said, it still gives me the chance to observe a fair bit and as I said, I see a fair bit in passing (while in pursuit of my other fandoms).

This is my experience only, but I do feel that the mostly-women fanspaces I frequent tend to be a bit more "live and let live" when it comes to how people play with their toys and how they see the characters.

Obviously there are exceptions, it's not a hard-and-fast rule, and I should iterate again to try to curtail any arguments, this is my experience only... but let me put it this way - there are specific topics here when discussing Turtles which inevitably lead to pandemonium and thread lockdown... whereas in other spaces, it's not a big deal.

You would think that Guys Who Are Really Into A Thing would be more sympathetic to their fellow geeks, but...no. You'd be wrong. Rather than be about inclusion, it's all about instituting a pecking order.

Pretty much - though I was reflecting last night that I think things are slowly starting to change. Fanfic and slashfic are pretty much out of the closet now and are treated as valid forms of fan expression by a lot of published authors and show creators. You'll still get some of the Old Guard whining about shippers online, but by and large it's a lot more widely accepted than it was even 10 years ago. It's not perfect, but it's something at least.

[BubblyShell22]

I gave up on MLP before any of those "bronies" were introduced- at the time, Lucky was the ONLY male pony. I did have the Flutter Ponies (they were my faves too!)

Well, they weren't part of the show from what I remember. They were just ponies you could buy and so I got them for birthday presents. Yep, the Flutter Ponies rocked! I had Rosedust, Lily, Honeysuckle, Morning Glory, and even a baby Flutter Pony I named Sunshine because I can't remember if she had a name. Sadly, the wings came off of most of the Flutter Ponies though. Those things just broke off too easily.

[Sleepingseeker]

I'm a woman who just turned 40 and can honestly say that I've just loved them from the very start, since I discovered them in the original comics when I was only 12 years old and now I'm watching the show on Nick with my kids and loving them with a renewed vigor thanks to the reboot in the comics as well as the newly released movie - needless to say, I'm in TMNT HEAVEN. But I may be slightly atypical because I adore science fiction and love a good action movie - some of my favorite movies are Terminator, Aliens, True Romance, The Professional, you get the idea.

I grew up really poor in a tight-knit family of 8 on the south side of Chicago in an industrial park - so I kinda related to the boys' isolation and removal from regular society. I connect with the characters in ways that just doesn't happen in other fandoms. I like other things, don't get me wrong, but there is just something extra special about the ninja turtles.

Maybe it's their obscure conception; borne out of two guys who initially thought of them as a joke, only for them to seize fans' imaginations and hearts then rise to an amazing level of popularity that's spanned 30 years! It just tugs at my heart strings.

I dunno if that quite answers your question. Whatever the reason, I can only answer for myself. I love them. Always have, always will - I'll be a fan forever. :tsmile:

[Metalwolf]

Oh I'm all for ridiculing them for their merits, or lack there of, but I'm speaking specifically of the people who dismiss them out of hand because they're popular with teen girls.

They make for great fic fodder, what with the source material being as it is.
The more horrible the canon, the better the fic.

I think the reason 50 shades and Twilight are ridiculed aren't because of their large female fanbases, it's because these two franchises are practically female porn writ large with a bunch of women and girls 'ooo-ing' and panting over BDSM and forever-teen vampire lovers.

Just because it's a female orientated franchise doesn't mean it's an automatic target for ridicule. It's when the female audience takes something crappy and elevates it to sainthood then that franchise (and it's fanbase) gets mocked.

[IndigoErth]

Maybe it's their obscure conception; borne out of two guys who initially thought of them as a joke, only for them to seize fans' imaginations and hearts then rise to an amazing level of popularity that's spanned 30 years! It just tugs at my heart strings.
My feelings exactly, nailed it right in the heart strings. Especially since realizing earlier in the year that they were turning 30 I've certainly felt a sense of pride in them for having come so far, and gratitude for being a part of that generation of kids they were born into. An underdog story on both sides of the pages/screen; The Turtles just shrugged off the fact they were meant as a joke and made it. (With thanks of course owed to those who were old enough to buy and read the first comics and provided that early foothold they needed, since I was only 5. lol)

Each decade has it's fresh, new [super]heroes, but growing up with these guys I couldn't have asked for better. They're just special like that. :tlove:

[The Big Bad]

Somebody had observed upthread that they'd been under the impression that April wasn't particularly liked among the female section of the fanbase. Assuming this is true--and I don't believe it is--one possible reason for this is that women are better positioned to be able to see the character without the obfuscating effects of male privilege, and are thus to be more aware of any flaws. See, for example, the continued marginalization of the women of the Nick cartoon: while it's perfectly possible for one to see it as unremarkable and perfectly in keeping with the way things have always been done--particularly if one has never had a reason to think about such things--it is much easier to have a problem with it if one has been dealing with that marginalization elsewhere, as happens with women.

That said, I don't believe women harbor a specific distaste for April. They may dislike what creators do with her, but my experience has been that the character is seen a victim--to paraphrase Jessica Rabbit, she's not bad, she's just written that way.

[CyberCubed]

Somebody had observed upthread that they'd been under the impression that April wasn't particularly liked among the female section of the fanbase. y.

That person is me.

Also in every fandom I've been a part of, whenever I see a female character hated who do you think is doing the majority of the hating? Female fans. I don't know why females pride themselves on hating certain female characters in shows so much.

And they attack females from every possible side:

- This female is too ditzy/damsel in distress/an airhead

- This female is too seductive, too mean or too vicious

- This female is boring and has no personality

- This female used to be good but made a horrible decision in the show so now I hate her

- This female gets in the way of my preferred shipping. How dare she ruin my OTP! I hate this female for interfering with my ships!


I don't know why female fans go out of their way to hate on female characters.

[IndigoErth]

I don't know why females pride themselves on hating certain female characters in shows so much.

And they attack females from every possible side:

- This female is too ditzy/damsel in distress/an airhead

- This female is too seductive, too mean or too vicious

- This female is boring and has no personality

- This female used to be good but made a horrible decision in the show so now I hate her

Well I can only speak from my perspective, but I think for some, maybe many, it may be a bit similar to how some minorities may dislike overdone, stereotypical, or negative portrayal of characters of their race.

To me, as an example, it's like... Oh look, another "strong woman" who has to be overly sexualized as part of her character description and as proof that she's still woman enough. Thanks for continuing to encourage society to see/portray our gender like this. (Note, I am not talking about April or any specific character.)


- This female gets in the way of my preferred shipping. How dare she ruin my OTP! I hate this female for interfering with my ships!
I'll give you that one though. If anyone does this that's just purely catty behavior.

The rest however is probably being reacted to for deeper reasons.

Edit: And if you look at that list of reasons, it's all things many women are not going to find relateable and wouldn't respect in another woman.

[PangolinFeets]

Well I can only speak from my perspective, but I think for some, maybe many, it may be a bit similar to how some minorities may dislike overdone, stereotypical, or negative portrayal of characters of their race.

To me, as an example, it's like... Oh look, another "strong woman" who has to be overly sexualized as part of her character description and as proof that she's still woman enough. Thanks for continuing to encourage society to see/portray our gender like this. (Note, I am not talking about April or any specific character.)

This is certainly a factor.


I'll give you that one though. If anyone does this that's just purely catty behavior.

The rest however is probably being reacted to for deeper reasons.

You'll also notice that there are varying degrees to which April is disliked based on which version is being referred to. For example, it seems a lot of the heat falls on OT April and 2k12 April for being 'damsel-y' and objectified where IDW April has been highly praised so far.
And there's a big difference between the way those Aprils are all written.

[plastroncafe]

That person is me.

Also in every fandom I've been a part of, whenever I see a female character hated who do you think is doing the majority of the hating? Female fans. I don't know why females pride themselves on hating certain female characters in shows so much.

And they attack females from every possible side:

- This female is too ditzy/damsel in distress/an airhead

- This female is too seductive, too mean or too vicious

- This female is boring and has no personality

- This female used to be good but made a horrible decision in the show so now I hate her

- This female gets in the way of my preferred shipping. How dare she ruin my OTP! I hate this female for interfering with my ships!


I don't know why female fans go out of their way to hate on female characters.

Because patriarchy.

I think the reason 50 shades and Twilight are ridiculed aren't because of their large female fanbases, it's because these two franchises are practically female porn writ large with a bunch of women and girls 'ooo-ing' and panting over BDSM and forever-teen vampire lovers.

Just because it's a female orientated franchise doesn't mean it's an automatic target for ridicule. It's when the female audience takes something crappy and elevates it to sainthood then that franchise (and it's fanbase) gets mocked.

So it's not because women and girls like it, it's because women and girls like it too much?
No one judges male fans of Frank Miller's work any where near as harshly as they do Twilight/50 Shades fans, and they're all varying levels of poorly written porn with unhealthy amounts of misogyny threaded through out.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, as long as we're throwing comic book writers and artists under the bus for stereotyping women, let's add Stan Lee to the list, eh? :trolleye::twink::tgrumble: He created both of Spidey's gals M-J and Gwen, as well as Black Cat, and what about artists like Boris Vallejo, Frank Frazetta, etc.? They "objectify and sexualize women" in their work, too. But I don't hear NEARLY as much flack about them as people gripe about April here. And she's actually not that bad in those terms compared to, say- Jessica Rabbit. :trolleye::trazz:

[Metalwolf]

So it's not because women and girls like it, it's because women and girls like it too much?
No one judges male fans of Frank Miller's work any where near as harshly as they do Twilight/50 Shades fans, and they're all varying levels of poorly written porn with unhealthy amounts of misogyny threaded through out.No, it's because women and girls should strive to have higher standards for what they've been picking as 'entertainment.' Ooo-ing over an immortal teen who displays blatantly stalkerish and creeper behaviors and wishing they could be in Bella's place is a bit odd. Then not being squicked out by Bella's former werewolf suitor who takes her infant daughter as his 'soul mate' makes a person wonder if her fellow women aren't indeed nursing some sort of twisted sexual fantasy, the kind you only find in hardcore female stroke mags.

With Frank Miller, it's time for the men to say something to the comic book industry, not just women. If they heard the outcry from their targeted demographic, then they might change their content versus hearing it from women they might just disregard as overly sensitive 'fem-nazis.'

[Leo656]

To be fair, I don't think any sane person has taken Frank Miller seriously in years, if ever. His stuff is popular, yeah - some of his Batman stuff, anyway - but everyone knows he's certifiable.

Pretty much nobody takes him seriously or idolizes him other than a few hardcore, ultra-obsessed Batman fans, whose obsession with and idealization of that character is just as unhealthy as some of the stuff Metalwolf mentioned form the female side.

[Netkeeper]

- This female is too ditzy/damsel in distress/an airhead

- This female is too seductive, too mean or too vicious

- This female is boring and has no personality

- This female used to be good but made a horrible decision in the show so now I hate her

- This female gets in the way of my preferred shipping. How dare she ruin my OTP! I hate this female for interfering with my ships!


I don't know why female fans go out of their way to hate on female characters.
From my experience, these comments are usually done by a vocal minority.

No, it's because women and girls should strive to have higher standards for what they've been picking as 'entertainment.' Ooo-ing over an immortal teen who displays blatantly stalkerish and creeper behaviors and wishing they could be in Bella's place is a bit odd. Then not being squicked out by Bella's former werewolf suitor who takes her infant daughter as his 'soul mate' makes a person wonder if her fellow women aren't indeed nursing some sort of twisted sexual fantasy, the kind you only find in hardcore female stroke mags. '
The reason for this is because women are generally socialised way differently than men. Women are taught to be submissive and that stalkerish and creeper behaviours are romantic. They're taught to think that a man that does what he wants even when told no is being romantic and not, you know, overstepping boundaries. You can see this even in early childhood, with boys bullying girls and when the girls tell on them, the adults say "it's because he likes you". Women are told that abusive behaviours are supposed to be affectionate or romantic.

Society is starting to recognise this and we're getting better about it, and women themselves start to recognise it as they get older [but usually because they had to learn 'the hard way'] but I don't blame the teenage girl fanbase for romanticizing that ****. I blame the society that tells them these things in the first place.

[plastroncafe]

Well, as long as we're throwing comic book writers and artists under the bus for stereotyping women, let's add Stan Lee to the list, eh? :trolleye::twink::tgrumble: He created both of Spidey's gals M-J and Gwen, as well as Black Cat, and what about artists like Boris Vallejo, Frank Frazetta, etc.? They "objectify and sexualize women" in their work, too. But I don't hear NEARLY as much flack about them as people gripe about April here. And she's actually not that bad in those terms compared to, say- Jessica Rabbit. :trolleye::trazz:

You don't spend nearly as much time in the same places as I do. I hear gripes about them all the time, for exactly this reason.

No, it's because women and girls should strive to have higher standards for what they've been picking as 'entertainment.' Ooo-ing over an immortal teen who displays blatantly stalkerish and creeper behaviors and wishing they could be in Bella's place is a bit odd. Then not being squicked out by Bella's former werewolf suitor who takes her infant daughter as his 'soul mate' makes a person wonder if her fellow women aren't indeed nursing some sort of twisted sexual fantasy, the kind you only find in hardcore female stroke mags.

People are turned on by what they're turned on by. I try not to judge what trips a consenting adult's trigger.

There's a conversation to be had regarding Twilight and the YA audience, but I don't think public shaming should have a place in it.

I'll never forget being at the SDCC and hearing dudes around me bitch about how they're happy to have the TwiHards out of their convention. Because...their geekery was some how more pure than that of the icky poo girls? Or...something. I don't know, I didn't engage.

With Frank Miller, it's time for the men to say something to the comic book industry, not just women. If they heard the outcry from their targeted demographic, then they might change their content versus hearing it from women they might just disregard as overly sensitive 'fem-nazis.'

But that would require guys giving voice to the problem, and so long as dudes are catered to, it's unlikely to happen.

To be fair, I don't think any sane person has taken Frank Miller seriously in years, if ever. His stuff is popular, yeah - some of his Batman stuff, anyway - but everyone knows he's certifiable.

Pretty much nobody takes him seriously or idolizes him other than a few hardcore, ultra-obsessed Batman fans, whose obsession with and idealization of that character is just as unhealthy as some of the stuff Metalwolf mentioned form the female side.

And yet we don't hear much about them. I mean, you'd hardly find a thread on a batman board that read: Why are so many men into Bats?

[CyberCubed]

From my experience, these comments are usually done by a vocal minority.



For one thing most male fans don't get into shipping wars. With guys we have our "favorite pairings" but we don't make a big deal out of it if it doesn't happen in canon.

Female shippers go absolutely ballistic if their favored pairing either gets killed off or "threatened" by another ship. These fans then hate whatever female character moves in on their ship, and then they spend their online time making hate rants, deviantart posts with that female character "dying" or in peril, or angry fanfiction.net stories where said character gets killed repeatedly.

Female shippers are a scary bunch. You don't ever want to be on the receiving end of their wrath. They will KILL YOU.

[plastroncafe]

For one thing most male fans don't get into shipping wars. With guys we have our "favorite pairings" but we don't make a big deal out of it if it doesn't happen in canon.

Female shippers go absolutely ballistic if their favored pairing either gets killed off or "threatened" by another ship. These fans then hate whatever female character moves in on their ship, and then they spend their online time making hate rants, deviantart posts with that female character "dying" or in peril, or angry fanfiction.net stories where said character gets killed repeatedly.

Female shippers are a scary bunch. You don't ever want to be on the receiving end of their wrath. They will KILL YOU.

I might believe this, if I hadn't seen and experienced evidence to the contrary at almost every turn.

OH! And before I forget:
#NOTALLFEMALEFANS

[Netkeeper]

I wouldn't say that this behaviour is restricted to just female shippers. I have definitely seen some scary, overinvested male shippers. [For anyone familiar with Homestuck's fandom, take Vexarian for example.]

But again, from what I've seen, the people that engage in that die for our ship behaviour are a vocal minority.

[CyberCubed]

The entire population of fanfiction.net and deviantart are shippers. There are millions for any fandom.

[Netkeeper]

You completely dodged my point. Don't think I didn't notice.

[IndigoErth]

The reason for this is because women are generally socialised way differently than men. Women are taught to be submissive and that stalkerish and creeper behaviours are romantic. They're taught to think that a man that does what he wants even when told no is being romantic and not, you know, overstepping boundaries. You can see this even in early childhood, with boys bullying girls and when the girls tell on them, the adults say "it's because he likes you". Women are told that abusive behaviours are supposed to be affectionate or romantic.

Society is starting to recognise this and we're getting better about it, and women themselves start to recognise it as they get older [but usually because they had to learn 'the hard way'] but I don't blame the teenage girl fanbase for romanticizing that ****. I blame the society that tells them these things in the first place.
Yeah, partly I think it's behavior that is very widely mistaken for assertiveness and confidence. And I think some girls romanticize the notion of being "won."

If someone wants to act dominant, do it with your own gender. Come at me with that or act jerky or creepy and the only thing you'll be "winning" is an eviction notice from any attention you were hoping to get.

I mean, you'd hardly find a thread on a batman board that read: Why are so many men into Bats?
:lol::D:lol::D


The entire population ...deviantart
Wut? Have you never looked at anything on that site other than fan art specific to the franchises you're into?

I've had an account on there for a while now, and my faves are full of not only fan art that has zero to do with any kind of shipping but also plenty of art that hasn't a damn thing to do with any franchise at all. Like, I dunno, some of my faves have been artwork of goldfish and koi. Seems like it's not the entire population then.

The fanfic site I can't speak for since I haven't spent time there and I don't tend to get into fan fiction, but willing to bet there is a lot that is probably decent storytelling that isn't intended to be all about pairing two characters...

That said though, what does it matter if that sort of thing exists on sites like that. It's a thing that exists, and it's going to exist somewhere online like it or not, so... better there than sites you care to frequent? (Though you sound pretty knowledgeable about those sites.)

[plastroncafe]

The entire population of fanfiction.net and deviantart are shippers. There are millions for any fandom.

Your grasp of the obvious is truly staggering.

[Leo656]

I partly feel like Cubed is one of those people who goes around looking for things that specifically are "offensive" to him, because subconsciously, he's into those things he's railing against but doesn't want to admit it or feels guilty about it or whatever. Like how he's obsessively complaining about boobs in stuff where it's not even a major focus, for example.

He's a strange, strange cat.

[IndigoErth]

Maybe there is pleasure in speaking against something - while secretly partaking of it - and keeps it exciting if you keep yourself convinced that it's "wrong" to indulge in it. So now maybe someone feels naughty and secretive peeking over those lines they otherwise try to suggest/believe shouldn't be crossed. Is there a term for that..?

[CyberCubed]

I partly feel like Cubed is one of those people who goes around looking for things that specifically are "offensive" to him, because subconsciously, he's into those things he's railing against but doesn't want to admit it or feels guilty about it or whatever. Like how he's obsessively complaining about boobs in stuff where it's not even a major focus, for example.

He's a strange, strange cat.

I sometimes purposely look into these things just to confirm my suspicions. The only reason I started lurking tumblr was for the same reason. Its like a trainwreck, I can't look away. I simply *have* to know what these people are thinking.

Of course I only do this for the fandoms I'm part of, if its for a show/game/movie/comic that I have no interest in, then I don't care.

[pennydreadful]

Female shippers go absolutely ballistic if their favored pairing either gets killed off or "threatened" by another ship. These fans then hate whatever female character moves in on their ship, and then they spend their online time making hate rants, deviantart posts with that female character "dying" or in peril, or angry fanfiction.net stories where said character gets killed repeatedly.

Female shippers are a scary bunch. You don't ever want to be on the receiving end of their wrath. They will KILL YOU.

Love how "male shippers" are somehow exempt from your criticism. And if you want an example of fanboys behaving badly because things are canonically changed to their liking, I suggest you take a look at, oh... pretty much any nerdspace on the internet. The level of p*ssing and moaning over Batfleck or gay Green Lantern is equal to any amount of discontent over the ending of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or a plot twist in The Vampire Diaries. And I'm not even bringing up the number of times sports fans have rioted and set sh*t on fire.

You're basically making fun of people for being passionate about something. Which is, oh, I don't know - the entire point of fandom to begin with. I mean really, YOU are going to complain about people doing "hate rants" after the amount of b*tching you've done about turtle nostrils? Get real.

I sometimes purposely look into these things just to confirm my suspicions. The only reason I started lurking tumblr was for the same reason. Its like a trainwreck, I can't look away. I simply *have* to know what these people are thinking.

Of course I only do this for the fandoms I'm part of, if its for a show/game/movie/comic that I have no interest in, then I don't care.

What absolute crap. I know perfectly well that your schtick is just to say things to get a reaction - the problem is that some people probably buy into your ignorance.

Fact: Modern fanfiction has been in existence since the late 60s. It's a valid part of any fandom. It's a way for fans to form bonds with others in the fandom, express themselves creatively and explore emotional territory between characters they love.

Fact: Shipfic, like general fanfic, has been done by some extremely talented authors. They spend hours upon hours creating these stories out of love for the characters and sharing them with other fans.

Fact: Show-runners and authors are well aware of fanfiction and slashfic, and actively encourage it. All you have to do is open your eyes and you'd be aware of Teen Wolf's MTV fanfiction contest, or Supernaturals' million and one references to the fanfic and slashfic community within their scripted episodes. Xena's production team actually hired a popular fanfic writer called Melissa Good to do some writing during Season 6, Paramount Pictures authorized a fan anthology of Star Trek fic from fan zines to be printed via Bantam, Sherlock's writers queerbait their episodes specifically to draw in the fangirls and fanwomen. I could go on, but I think I've made my point - namely, you're completely ignorant when it comes to fanfic.

It's not going away, and as it's been explained before - nobody has the right to tell someone else if they're "Ninja Turtling correctly", to paraphrase Leo656. The fanfiction community is bigger than it ever has been - which, come to think of it, is probably why you're sh*tting your pants over it. Though why you think how someone else enjoys TMNT has anything at all to do with you is beyond me. Nobody criticizes you for how you enjoy TMNT - despite the fact that, at the end of the day, you are a grown man watching a childrens' cartoon. You wouldn't like it if people put you down for your hobbies and interests, so I really cannot fathom why it's so difficult for you to accord others the same respect.

I'll tell you this much for free - there are plenty of shippers on these boards. And tcesters. A lot more than you think - and I'm in a position to say that, because as one of those shippers and tcesters, I talk to plenty of them. Ross Campbell himself ships and has done tcest art (I should clarify; it's never been posted anywhere, but he has confirmed on his Tumblr that it exists). So if you want to continue your hysterical pearl-clutching and behaving as if it's burning a hole in the ozone layer, go right ahead -- but it's not going to stop people from shipping, and you're not going to make people here (or anywhere else, for that matter) ashamed to do so.

I think this is pretty much the only time I'm even going to bother addressing your so-called opinion on the subject of shipping, because you basically just have a history of ignoring peoples' rebuttals, or just coming out with something even more flame-baitey - either way, discussing it further with you really doesn't interest me.

/end smackdown

[IndigoErth]

I sometimes purposely look into these things just to confirm my suspicions. The only reason I started lurking tumblr was for the same reason. Its like a trainwreck, I can't look away. I simply *have* to know what these people are thinking.

Of course I only do this for the fandoms I'm part of, if its for a show/game/movie/comic that I have no interest in, then I don't care.


So basially it's like those times on occasion that I see a small thumb nail sized image of something and can't help but want to know if it's what I think it is or not, even if it's something I really hope it's not but still feel the need to know and hoping to clear my head that it isn't.

And then when it's exactly what I feared I run away screaming.

But even if it's something bad enough to me that makes me think "wtf why would you??" it was still my choice to go looking.

I don't need to act as a soldier for the things I am a fan of, hunting down and vilifying something I personally don't like, find distasteful, or vile even. I can't stop it from happening, and the fact that it is fiction and harming no one it's not my place to act like the fandome police, trying to determine it someone is 'fanning' right or not, and try to force people to adhere to my preferred interpretation. Nor go actively searching for things I don't agree with in order to feel justified that someone else is wrong. If I don't want my vision marred with what I don't like about someone elses' then it is better for me to simply not go looking for it. (Though I understand some things can find you without looking for those specifics and that does irk me and makes me wish some sites had search setting keyword filters on your account for words to exclude automatically, and members that will keyword their work properly.)

Only if these characters were real would I probably be openly vocal to an extent about certain things, because in that case it does potentially hurt someone, or a few someones. But fortunately they will never know and I'll just try to avoid knowing.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

You don't spend nearly as much time in the same places as I do. I hear gripes about them all the time, for exactly this reason.


You're probably right, but there's a reason for that- I actually LIKE their art, and don't participate in forums or discussions meant to bash them. Vallejo, in particular, I have a very high regard for, as I've been a fan of his art for most of my life, from the first time I found my mom's copy of the book "The Fantastic Art of Boris Vallejo" when I was about eight. I even still have that book. Whether a person feels offended by it or not, he's a truly talented artist, who has done some of my favorite works EVER. However, most of the places I'VE frequented are also full of fans of fantasy art, and very FEW of those people ever complain much about the way he portrays the female body in his work. To tell the truth, it astounds me that anyone WOULD complain, since he has done some of the best renditions of Marvel women (AND men!) I've ever seen!

Also, it's called sarcasm. Seriously, that entire post was intended as an eye-roll against trashing artists or writers for their portrayal of females just for political agendas. I find ultra-extreme feminism FAR more disgusting and offensive than Frazetta's art or Miller's writing. And I consider my self a bit of a feminist, too, so that's really saying something.


The entire population of fanfiction.net and deviantart are shippers. There are millions for any fandom.


Since I'm a long-time member on DA and have been on FF for over a year, I can say quite confidently that that is NOT true. Less than HALF of the fics/art I've seen on DA involve ships, whether canon or fanon, and probably AT LEAST half the stories I've read on FF had NOTHING to do with shipping. Most are actually tragedies involving the death of a character, or reflective tales involving one or more of the characters. In fact, I'll even link you to my own page there, in which only ONE of the stories has any serious shipping at all! (The crossover one has a few mild moments of implied relationships, but the story itself is about the adventure taking place and the interactions between the two groups, NOT the OC's relationship.)

https://www.fanfiction.net/~msmarvelduckie

I think this will illustrate the fact that there's much less shipping on that site than you seem to think, Cubed. I'm not even as prolific as most of the writers there, but the stories I've done are pretty much typical of what others write, as well. And while, yes, I DO "ship" a bit, I don't EXCLUSIVELY write about that- in fact, I've recently begun two new stories that have not a single ship in sight. One's an alternate world tale where Shredder is actually the GOOD guy and the turtles are the REAL threat (It's not posted yet, but the first chapter will soon be up) and the other is a "What If" tale about their last battle. The turtles are all dead before the story even begins, and it's based on the OT (with Nick's Kurtzman added in). "Goodbye, Father" is similar, although the OC from my shipping tale is in it- but she is there only as a sounding board to illustrate how each of the boys takes the death of their father.

The Marvel tale is something I've been playing with for a long time, and most of the characters are my own creations- it involves a completely new generation of X-Men, as well as Spidey's son and (second) daughter, and several of their friends, both human and mutant. A few of the older superheroes make a few appearances as well, but NOT as shipping material.


Wut? Have you never looked at anything on that site other than fan art specific to the franchises you're into?

I've had an account on there for a while now, and my faves are full of not only fan art that has zero to do with any kind of shipping but also plenty of art that hasn't a damn thing to do with any franchise at all. Like, I dunno, some of my faves have been artwork of goldfish and koi. Seems like it's not the entire population then.

The fanfic site I can't speak for since I haven't spent time there and I don't tend to get into fan fiction, but willing to bet there is a lot that is probably decent storytelling that isn't intended to be all about pairing two characters...

That said though, what does it matter if that sort of thing exists on sites like that. It's a thing that exists, and it's going to exist somewhere online like it or not, so... better there than sites you care to frequent? (Though you sound pretty knowledgeable about those sites.)


And I'll just reiterate what I said above, and say that yes, Indigo is pretty much on the nose here. Unless you're actively LOOKING for that sort of thing, you won't find nearly as much of it as Cubed claims. I know, because my message feeds on DA are FULL of TMNT art (and some from other fandoms) of which the "shipping" ones are only a SMALL percentage. Mostly revolving around Nick Donnie/April, at that. So the ships are mostly canon, even!


I sometimes purposely look into these things just to confirm my suspicions. The only reason I started lurking tumblr was for the same reason. Its like a trainwreck, I can't look away. I simply *have* to know what these people are thinking.

Of course I only do this for the fandoms I'm part of, if its for a show/game/movie/comic that I have no interest in, then I don't care.

More like affirm what you were already hoping to find, I'm guessing. You have to LOOK for shipping fics/art to find as much of it as you claim, Cubed. Some of us are less selective in our searches, and guess what? We see the "bigger picture" of what all is actually out there, not just the small proportion of romantically-oriented stuff.

[pennydreadful]

So basially it's like those times on occasion that I see a small thumb nail sized image of something and can't help but want to know if it's what I think it is or not, even if it's something I really hope it's not but still feel the need to know and hoping to clear my head that it isn't.

And then when it's exactly what I feared I run away screaming.

But even if it's something bad enough to me that makes me think "wtf why would you??" it was still my choice to go looking.

I don't need to act as a soldier for the things I am a fan of, hunting down and vilifying something I personally don't like, find distasteful, or vile even. I can't stop it from happening, and the fact that it is fiction and harming no one it's not my place to act like the fandome police, trying to determine it someone is 'fanning' right or not, and try to force people to adhere to my preferred interpretation. Nor go actively searching for things I don't agree with in order to feel justified that someone else is wrong. If I don't want my vision marred with what I don't like about someone elses' then it is better for me to simply not go looking for it. (Though I understand some things can find you without looking for those specifics and that does irk me and makes me wish some sites had search setting keyword filters on your account for words to exclude automatically, and members that will keyword their work properly.)


That's basically it in a nutshell (or a turtle-shell, as the case may be). I deliberately keep my conversations regarding fics and pairings I like to PM, or I discuss it on other sites - because hey, some people here find it squicky and regardless of whether I'm friends with someone here or not, I make the effort to take other peoples' feelings into consideration. I'm not going to spend my time posting about things that make other members uncomfortable when I have the option available to discuss it elsewhere. Why would I take joy in making someone else unhappy or uncomfortable on the boards?

The people who I am friends with here that aren't into my ships - I simply don't discuss it with them. There are a million other Turtle-related things to talk about. It's never been an issue; I can comfortably co-exist with non-shippers and vice versa. There's no need for animosity about it.

What I take issue with is the attitude that someone doesn't have the right to be in the fandom because they enjoy something that you don't. You know what, people here think certain ships within TMNT fic are gross, that's fine. People here think that someone who enjoys reading specific pairings are f*cked in the head or sickos - again, that's fine. I really couldn't care less what people think of me for it. It's not going to change my reading habits, and at the end of the day, how I or anyone else chooses enjoy a fandom is nobody else's business.

Bottom line: if it makes other people happy and it's not hurting you, click the back button and get on with your life. Don't spend your time bashing other people for enjoying something that you don't.

[Dirty Blond]

Ross Campbell himself ships and has done tcest art.

Wat?

:tsurpris:

[Prowler]

I sometimes purposely look into these things just to confirm my suspicions. The only reason I started lurking tumblr was for the same reason. Its like a trainwreck, I can't look away. I simply *have* to know what these people are thinking.

Dude, you can admit that you're on tumblr only to look at porn. Nobody is gonna judge you for that.

[Leo656]

I sometimes purposely look into these things just to confirm my suspicions. The only reason I started lurking tumblr was for the same reason. Its like a trainwreck, I can't look away. I simply *have* to know what these people are thinking.


:lol: True F'n story? That's almost exactly the reasoning I gave my Mom when she caught me watching all of my Dad's porno movies when I was 7. I specifically faked sick so I could do exactly that while they were out, and my Mom came home much earlier than expected. So, in a corner, I attempted to argue that "I just wanted to be SURE it was gross! I didn't LIKE it or anything!" :lol:

She thought I was completely, thoroughly full of sh*t, and rightly so. Because that was one of the best days of my life. :lol: And I'm feeling a similar way now, reading your reply: You're deflecting so as not to be judged. Nobody's buyin' it, brah. :P

As for "shipping" or whatever, y'know, maybe it's stupid, but my wife and I pretty much can't watch anything without deciding who "has to be" banging whom. Just something we do for laughs, has nothing to do with canon, just goofing around and being outrageous and trying to one-up each other in terms of outlandishness. "What makes you think the turtles were 'nailing' April, exactly?" "Because in the second movie, she's a single female living in a tiny apartment and sharing a bathroom with a bunch of guys who have never been around a female before, and by all evidence, nobody's paying her any rent. Arrangements were made, that's all I'm sayin'." :lol:

So none of that sh*t bothers me. It's all just people messing around having their own definition of "fun". So some people write it down and some people draw pictures of it. Who gives a sh*t? When a person goes looking for that stuff, and then goes "Eww, I can't believe this stuff," whose fault is that, exactly? Like, I know for a fact snuff films exist. I have zero desire to see anything like that, so I'm not gonna go LOOKING for it just to be able to conclude once and for all that yes, indeed, my intial feelings were correct.

It's like those guys who are like, "Man, I can't believe there's so much gay porn of my favorite fictional character. I couldn't believe the things I saw." Uhhh, right. You totally knew there was so much, which is why you just had to "confirm your suspicions" about it, and are in turn now uncertain if you've seen too much or not enough cartoon penis and are seriously questioning yourself in ways that never occurred to you before. Good luck with that. ;)

I'unno, some people are uptight as f*ck. To me, all that stuff - fanfic, fanart, even the porn stuff - it's just entertainment, people either laugh at it or get off on it and who cares? It's nobody's business, really. I can safely say I've seen just about every damn thing there is to see and for the most part, it's all just funny. Maybe a little sad some people spend so MUCH time and effort on certain things. But again, their life and their business.

I'unno. Live and let live, ya dig?

Dude, you can admit that you're on tumblr only to look at porn. Nobody is gonna judge you for that.
True story bro. Y'know, I still don't quite know what Tumbler is, but if there's porn on it, I'm shocked I never got near it. Probably for the best as what I've already seen/collected is rather... extensive. Pretty well set as it is.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, this stuff is kind of like religion I guess, the question whether to discuss or not probably runs a similar pattern.

Dude, you can admit that you're on tumblr only to look at porn. Nobody is gonna judge you for that.
And oh the kind of porn is probably is. :teek: :goof:



Anyhow, [*gives thread a shove*] because this thread is really supposed to be about the fact that women like TMNT... Saw this earlier. (Someone will surely find their panties in a bunch over the wording, but whatever, gave me a laugh.)

http://www.mtv.com/news/1972791/dating-types-ninja-turtles/
The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Are Every Guy You’ll Ever Date
Which of these typical male personalities is your hero in a half-shell? by Lauren Vino

It’s a special time in every girl’s life when she first experiences romantic feelings towards one or more of the Ninja Turtles. (Or am I just speaking for myself here?) It’s an even more special time in a grown woman’s life when she realizes that’s not even the creepiest thing about herself.

Well, you should know that these Turtle-related urges — if you happened to go through a similar phase — were totally, totally normal. You were subconsciously figuring out what you’re into, and it’s not necessarily buff mutant turtles. They just represent the types of guys you’ll end up dating. And your Ninja Turtle of choice can tell you about your ideal type of (human) dude.

Now I don't know about the actual breakdown for each of them suggested there - I don't personally view Leo as bossy, and clearly the current Donnie would be laying twitching on the floor over April rather than not taking notice - but have to wonder: is it true? Have fans with significant others often ended up with a partner that was similar to a favored Turtle in some way? Or a complete opposite?

[PangolinFeets]

Love how "male shippers" are somehow exempt from your criticism. And if you want an example of fanboys behaving badly because things are canonically changed to their liking, I suggest you take a look at, oh... pretty much any nerdspace on the internet. The level of p*ssing and moaning over Batfleck or gay Green Lantern is equal to any amount of discontent over the ending of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or a plot twist in The Vampire Diaries. And I'm not even bringing up the number of times sports fans have rioted and set sh*t on fire.

You're basically making fun of people for being passionate about something. Which is, oh, I don't know - the entire point of fandom to begin with. I mean really, YOU are going to complain about people doing "hate rants" after the amount of b*tching you've done about turtle nostrils? Get real.



What absolute crap. I know perfectly well that your schtick is just to say things to get a reaction - the problem is that some people probably buy into your ignorance.

Fact: Modern fanfiction has been in existence since the late 60s. It's a valid part of any fandom. It's a way for fans to form bonds with others in the fandom, express themselves creatively and explore emotional territory between characters they love.

Fact: Shipfic, like general fanfic, has been done by some extremely talented authors. They spend hours upon hours creating these stories out of love for the characters and sharing them with other fans.

Fact: Show-runners and authors are well aware of fanfiction and slashfic, and actively encourage it. All you have to do is open your eyes and you'd be aware of Teen Wolf's MTV fanfiction contest, or Supernaturals' million and one references to the fanfic and slashfic community within their scripted episodes. Xena's production team actually hired a popular fanfic writer called Melissa Good to do some writing during Season 6, Paramount Pictures authorized a fan anthology of Star Trek fic from fan zines to be printed via Bantam, Sherlock's writers queerbait their episodes specifically to draw in the fangirls and fanwomen. I could go on, but I think I've made my point - namely, you're completely ignorant when it comes to fanfic.

It's not going away, and as it's been explained before - nobody has the right to tell someone else if they're "Ninja Turtling correctly", to paraphrase Leo656. The fanfiction community is bigger than it ever has been - which, come to think of it, is probably why you're sh*tting your pants over it. Though why you think how someone else enjoys TMNT has anything at all to do with you is beyond me. Nobody criticizes you for how you enjoy TMNT - despite the fact that, at the end of the day, you are a grown man watching a childrens' cartoon. You wouldn't like it if people put you down for your hobbies and interests, so I really cannot fathom why it's so difficult for you to accord others the same respect.

I'll tell you this much for free - there are plenty of shippers on these boards. And tcesters. A lot more than you think - and I'm in a position to say that, because as one of those shippers and tcesters, I talk to plenty of them. Ross Campbell himself ships and has done tcest art (I should clarify; it's never been posted anywhere, but he has confirmed on his Tumblr that it exists). So if you want to continue your hysterical pearl-clutching and behaving as if it's burning a hole in the ozone layer, go right ahead -- but it's not going to stop people from shipping, and you're not going to make people here (or anywhere else, for that matter) ashamed to do so.

I think this is pretty much the only time I'm even going to bother addressing your so-called opinion on the subject of shipping, because you basically just have a history of ignoring peoples' rebuttals, or just coming out with something even more flame-baitey - either way, discussing it further with you really doesn't interest me.

/end smackdown
*Slow clap* Well said. :)
And frankly, as far as shipping goes, my two best friends are straight men who got very into Avatar/Korra shipping fandom. In fact, I know at least as many men who are involved in shipping culture as women. I really don't understand why it's being pinned on women.
As far as Tcest goes, a lot of men are drawing it and a lot of men are digging it.

[Waytocheesy]

Who doesn't like a mutated turtle seriously :)

[Netkeeper]

I think CyberCubed is well aware of shipfic already. (http://web.archive.org/web/20051125054737/www.serebiiforums.com/archive/index.php/t-63352.html) [NSFW]

[MsMarvelDuckie]

ROFLMFAO!!!! Well, well, the plot doth thicken, eh? Or would that be- me thinketh he doth protest o'er much? So now we know where he's coming from (heh, pun intended) and it's hilarious!! This is just too funny for words.

Seriously, though, it takes one to know one, I guess. So.... :teek::twink::tsmile::trazz::trolleye:

[Leo656]

I didn't read it, but seeing that it exists prompted a hearty Nelson Muntz "HAH-HAH!"

Nice. Nice.

[IndigoErth]

Oh my. :toops:

*glances at a few lines* This is Pokemon porn? Outsider feels confused. Not sure I want to know what kind of porn is done for Pokemon.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Heh, I read that first page, and it's not only Pokémon porn, it's Pokémon porn involving Ash, who a minor. So it looks like we've got a pot-calling-the-kettle-black situation here! Really made my day. I love it when people get hoisted on their own petards. Sheesh, and he complains about the T-cesters, LOL!!

[Leo656]

I just want to reiterate, I don't see anything wrong at all with writing that kinda stuff - I've written some TMNT stuff only my wife will likely ever see that's pretty disturbing by most "normal" standards - but it's pretty odd to do so and then poke fun at others for doing the same thing with different subject matter.

Ahhh, the walking conundrum that is CyberCubed. He's so labarynthine and complex.

[Metalwolf]

Heh, I read that first page, and it's not only Pokémon porn, it's Pokémon porn involving Ash, who a minor. So it looks like we've got a pot-calling-the-kettle-black situation here! Really made my day. I love it when people get hoisted on their own petards. Sheesh, and he complains about the T-cesters, LOL!!But aren't some of the Pokemon almost humanoid? You have one type that sorta look like clowns. Wouldn't they be a possible human-type Pokemon?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

But it wasn't Ash and any of the Pokémon, it was Ash and May (I don't know that character, but they are apparently both about 10. :teek::tconfuse: )


I don't have a problem with most of it myself, either, but given the age of many anime characters, things like that tend to fall in the squicky area for me. Especially as someone who's had first-hand experience with abuse as a child. It just hits my "caution" button. Especially with children around the age of Ash, who really is too young to fully understand the full scope of the subject and all its variations. T-cest, on the other hand, is hardly as troubling for me, given that the characters involved are (nearly) always portrayed as both fully consenting, and caring deeply for each other. I guess it comes down to age, IMHO. Some things shouldn't be done in fiction, unless it's being shown in the context of the moral issues involved. YMMV, of course.

[IndigoErth]

You have one type that sorta look like clowns. Wouldn't they be a possible human-type Pokemon?
No. Clowns are evil, soulless creatures.


Turtlessss, save me from the clowns!! https://s.yimg.com/lq/i/mesg/emoticons7/20.gif And Pokeporn. And clownporn because it probably exists.

[plastroncafe]

Rule 34 damn near guarantees that it does.

[pennydreadful]

Morbid curiosity led me to Google "clown porn" and now I'm very very sorry. :lol:

[Leo656]

Can clowns even reproduce? I always figured they were just spawned out of those little cars (which, in case you didn't know, act as a gateway between our dimension and The Pit).

Either way, thank god for Rule 34. Life (and the internet) would be so boring without it.

[pennydreadful]

I dunno how they reproduce, but I do know that unicorns are the only true defense against their evil!

And why is it that you and I always end up talking about unicorns? :lol:

[Leo656]

'Cuz they're awwwwesome.

[IndigoErth]

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Tears of laughter...

Through willpower alone I resisted Google. Some things are [better off] left unknown. :lol:


But now I have this mental image of a clown Lady Godiva on a unicorn... >.< And now you all do, too.

[PangolinFeets]

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Tears of laughter...

Through willpower alone I resisted Google. Some things are left unknown. :lol:

You're better off.

One of the threads here was wondering if there was a fan term for TMNT fans (Like Bronies for MLP fans) and in my curiosity I googled "Turtle fans", which auto-corrected to 'Turtle Fanning"....

Well, just don't google turtle fanning....

[pennydreadful]

I just went from "how bad can it be" to "... oh god, I should have listened to you" in about 3 seconds. :lol:

[Leo656]

Turtles sure do like to do Jazz Hands.

[Luckyday]

It seems to be their way of communication. I wonder how sea turtle communicate since they don't the hands to flutter?

[pennydreadful]

Interpretive dance?

[IndigoErth]

In water, I think that's freestyle synchronized swimming. Takes a lot of skill. lol

[Luckyday]

Interpretive dance?

Maybe but I read that they can make low pitch noises but I can't find anything that tells me how they do it. Do they have a voice box?

Maybe making sounds is much harder to do then to listen for it, which is why they can hear low pitches noise so well.

[METALHEAD]

because some chicks just find the turtles hot.from teens to their mid thirties.:tgrin: heh, its just the way the TMNT FANDOM is. i mean, there are chicks who who find transformers hot, gargoyles, every fandom has its fangirls.

[Powder]

because some chicks just find the turtles. from teens to their mid thirties.:tgrin: heh, its just the way the TMNT FANDOM is. i mean, there are chicks who who find transformers hot, gargoyles, every fandom has its fangirls.

Soooo girls only like the TMNT out of sexual attraction? :roll: & not that it's my cup of tea, but there are folks of all genders who are into that kinda thing.

[IndigoErth]

because some chicks just find the turtles.
Dammit, they get all the luck.

Dun gone and fixed it on me. :goof:

[METALHEAD]

Soooo girls only like the TMNT out of sexual attraction? :roll: & not that it's my cup of tea, but there are folks of all genders who are into that kinda thing.

i have been around fangirls long enough to know this...weirded me out at first but ya get use to it.

[Jester]

because some chicks just find the turtles hot.from teens to their mid thirties.:tgrin: heh, its just the way the TMNT FANDOM is. i mean, there are chicks who who find transformers hot, gargoyles, every fandom has its fangirls.

i have been around fangirls long enough to know this...weirded me out at first but ya get use to it.
P5iqYuFmzqg

[jenna]

Anyhow, [*gives thread a shove*] because this thread is really supposed to be about the fact that women like TMNT... Saw this earlier. (Someone will surely find their panties in a bunch over the wording, but whatever, gave me a laugh.)

http://www.mtv.com/news/1972791/dating-types-ninja-turtles/


Now I don't know about the actual breakdown for each of them suggested there - I don't personally view Leo as bossy, and clearly the current Donnie would be laying twitching on the floor over April rather than not taking notice - but have to wonder: is it true? Have fans with significant others often ended up with a partner that was similar to a favored Turtle in some way? Or a complete opposite?

That article is hilarious.... I can't say that I have ever viewed any of the turtles 'romantically' (the idea kind of creeps me out), but the idea interests me as the subconscious is a fascinating thing and this certainly keys into the personality archetypes we were discussing earlier. As it turns out, my favourite turtle has always been Raphael, but I married Donatello!

because some chicks just find the turtles hot.from teens to their mid thirties.:tgrin: heh, its just the way the TMNT FANDOM is. i mean, there are chicks who who find transformers hot, gargoyles, every fandom has its fangirls.

There may be a few, but for the majority of us this is garbage. Being interested in characterisation does not mean sexual attraction. And very few women are that shallow that they would belong to a fandom based purely on whether a character is 'hot'.

[pennydreadful]

... hmm, yeah, I'm one of the biggest perverts/freaks here, and even I've gotta have a bit more than just "would bang" to be into a fandom. Like interesting stories and engaging characters. :tneutral:

Nothing wrong with being attracted to a character within a fandom regardless, but it's not solely the province of women. Plenty of men think Cheetarah's hot, but I doubt any of them are ever accused of only being into Thundercats for that reason alone.

[plastroncafe]

Considering it was dudes who made the "Countdown Until Hermione Is Legal" webpage, I hardly think that women are the sole gender expression obsessed with the hotness of a character.

I have to admit, I'm honestly starting to get a bit concerned for some of the fans on this board.

[PangolinFeets]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/PangolinFeets/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10-31115121_zpsa9fc0f26.jpg

[Kendamu]

Simple answer to the original question:

Why not?

[IndigoErth]

Considering it was dudes who made the "Countdown Until Hermione Is Legal" webpage
https://31.media.tumblr.com/b27485acc36642f139b0c781c8449c4a/tumblr_inline_n8462dIB9T1r0qfvt.gif



Honest question... are the terms fangirl and fanboy mostly only used in a negative light?

Is it ever assumed to be an innocent, positive thing, or is it now (assuming I missed the boat on it ever being positive) only taken as nerd rage or wanting into a characters pants? Stupid if so. :roll:

Humor me, I'm 'old.' lol


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/PangolinFeets/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-10-31115121_zpsa9fc0f26.jpg
:lol:

[plastroncafe]

It's been my experience that both fanboy and fangirl can be used as both a term of endearment as well as a pejorative. It all depends on context, really.

[Davetello]

Well this thread certainly took off in a big way. I've scanned and read the thread - there's been some inspired discussion but some aggression as well.

Overall, I'm glad I started a thread which most people have contributed to well.

In relation to the most recent posts - I use the term 'fanboy' exclusively as a pejorative, mainly in relation to those of Cristiano Ronaldo (Portuguese soccer player). Although I prefer the term 'sycophant' as it's more mature and scathing.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

That article is hilarious.... I can't say that I have ever viewed any of the turtles 'romantically' (the idea kind of creeps me out), but the idea interests me as the subconscious is a fascinating thing and this certainly keys into the personality archetypes we were discussing earlier. As it turns out, my favourite turtle has always been Raphael, but I married Donatello!


On the opposite end of the spectrum, I apparently DID marry my favorite turtle- Mikey. I've mentioned to my hubby on more than one occasion that he and my fave green teen have quite a bit in common- both are quite funny and spontaneous, love video games, horror movies, and are smarter than they let on, both are very compassionate and imaginative, and my other half even shares the "talent" of doing impressions with Mikey. (Remember his impressions he did in the first and second movies?) My hubby even has some of the same issues, like procrastination, getting bored easily, and not always being able to stick with a task. He even enjoys cooking! (I'm not sure if they are so similar because that is the "type" of guy I'm attracted to, or if it's just a coincidence, but it's certainly something to consider.)

[CyberCubed]

Considering it was dudes who made the "Countdown Until Hermione Is Legal" webpage, I hardly think that women are the sole gender expression obsessed with the hotness of a character..

Wasn't there a Harry Potter porn parody movie about those characters after they turned 18? I remember hearing about it.

I'm not into Harry Potter since I don't read books (and I was already too old once the Harry Potter phenomenon first started, so I was out of the target audience), but I can see why they like her.

Haven't watched the Harry Potter movies either but I've seen snippets of it on youtube or on TV, the actress who played Hermoine is now going on to play more risque roles in other movies. Has she ever had a sex scene in a movie yet? I wonder if its only a matter of time.

[Powder]

i have been around fangirls long enough to know this...weirded me out at first but ya get use to it.

Oh, okay. Well thank you for filling me in. I had no idea that every single female fan of the TMNT wants to bang them & has little interest in the characters outside of sexual attraction. I am but a penny in your well of knowledge, sensei.

[Coola Yagami]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/b27485acc36642f139b0c781c8449c4a/tumblr_inline_n8462dIB9T1r0qfvt.gif








Ironically with that Britney gif.... there were people waiting for her to turn legal too back in the day. Not a girl, not yet a woman is right.

[Blossombrooks]

Oh can the thread not take a turn for the Quagmire? Giggety, giggety, urgh.

Anyway back on topic, Ms Marvel raises a good point. Do the attributes the turtles possess influence our choices and what we actually find attractive? The same could be said of any actor, musician etc, most people have someone who they put on a pedestal, is it so odd if those values happen to come from a fictional character?