Clarification of Dark Leo and Dark Raph

[aliena]

Okay, so I haven't read the comics. I'm in the process of trying to get a few IDW to get started, but I've been hearing bits and pieces of news that There may be a Dark Raph storyline coming up in season three I'm not sure if I need to use spoilers since I'm not sure if anything is set in stone as fact yet.

My question is, what was the Dark Leo storyline about? How would it relate to a Dark Raph storyline? From what I've heard, could it be possible that Raph only pretends to be brainwashed by Shredder to get close enough to him to destroy him? When Raph couldn't get to Shredder as he was throwing Splinter into the drain, I just felt that he would be the one to come back out of nowhere and go after him. I had a feeling that he would try something sneaky and not go at him from the front, but from the shadows.

Anyway, I'd love to hear more about Dark Leo and how it could change the current show. What could we expect to see if there were to be a Dark Raph storyline?

[Warhorse]

My understanding is that its basically the Turtles version of the whole Anakin Skywalker turning into Darth Vader.

[Megchan]

Basically Shredder kidnapped Leo, and had a spirit named Kitsune rewrite his memories, making him believe Splinter was evil.

[PangolinFeets]

I was the one who first heard about the Dark Raph storyline coming up. I asked Brandon Auman at the NYCC meet and greet about possible IDW storylines or characters being used in the cartoon (specifically Alopex).
To my best recollection, he said they try to stay away from IDW stories and stick more to old stuff like Mirage, the movies, and 2k3. "But," he said, glancing both ways nervously, "Spoilers: You know the whole Dark Leo storyline? We're going to have something loosely based on that, but with Dark Raph."

So all I know for certain, if you want to take Brandon Auman's word as fact, is that there will be a 'Dark Raph' in the near future. I doubt it'll be under the same circumstances (In the comics, Shredder wants an apprentice who is a born leader.). Perhaps Shredder wants Raph for his brute strength? Or maybe it isn't even Shredder that gets him. I'm thinking Bishop gets introduced and EPF does the deed. Or perhaps a new villain.


As for the comic, City Fall was what got me reading IDW. It's my favorite story so I'm insanely excited to see anything like it appear in the show.

[Luckyday]

I was the one who first heard about the Dark Raph storyline coming up. I asked Brandon Auman at the NYCC meet and greet about possible IDW storylines or characters being used in the cartoon (specifically Alopex).
To my best recollection, he said they try to stay away from IDW stories and stick more to old stuff like Mirage, the movies, and 2k3. "But," he said, glancing both ways nervously, "Spoilers: You know the whole Dark Leo storyline? We're going to have something loosely based on that, but with Dark Raph."

So all I know for certain, if you want to take Brandon Auman's word as fact, is that there will be a 'Dark Raph' in the near future. I doubt it'll be under the same circumstances (In the comics, Shredder wants an apprentice who is a born leader.). Perhaps Shredder wants Raph for his brute strength? Or maybe it isn't even Shredder that gets him. I'm thinking Bishop gets introduced and EPF does the deed. Or perhaps a new villain.


As for the comic, City Fall was what got me reading IDW. It's my favorite story so I'm insanely excited to see anything like it appear in the show.

Or maybe Shredder mutants Raph and he becomes Tokka.:teek:

There always a chance that a person forgets who he/she was after getting mutated.

[Electric]

My very rough prediction of all this:

It'll be late in season 3

The ideas always tossed around that someone switched sides because they're forced to, but I highly doubt that'll be the case with Raph, I'm thinking brainwashing.

I think it'll be shredder who does it, and probably because of something with karai. Either just her absence makes him want a new apprentice, maybe she turns human again and joins the turtles, so shredder takes someone from them, or just another attempt to hurt splinter after he finds out he's Alive.


Really excited for dark raph, because it'll be something different. Also sounds like Raphs getting a bulk of development this season

[victory_angel]

There is a shot in the episode that sort of foreshadows Dark Raph in Vengeance is Mine.

During the point where the Shellraiser pulls up just as Shredder is explaining his evil evil plan to tiger claw. There is one moment of inside the Shellraiser that is largely focused on Raph and Splinter. Splinter is standing just behind Raph as he is putting on his Shuko spikes. Leo is in the far background with his back to the camera.

Donnie and Mikey are completely not seen except for Mikey's hand handing Donnie a smoke bomb egg in the foreground.

My very rough prediction of all this:

It'll be late in season 3

The ideas always tossed around that someone switched sides because they're forced to, but I highly doubt that'll be the case with Raph, I'm thinking brainwashing.

I think it'll be shredder who does it, and probably because of something with karai. Either just her absence makes him want a new apprentice, maybe she turns human again and joins the turtles, so shredder takes someone from them, or just another attempt to hurt splinter after he finds out he's Alive.


Really excited for dark raph, because it'll be something different. Also sounds like Raphs getting a bulk of development this season

We do have a couple of episodes where Raph is told that his anger is his enemy. And in one of the Shredder/Splinter fights...Shredder does say that his anger fuels him and makes him strong. So Shredder may realizes that Karai is a lost cause, so he entices Raph to give into his rage and join the foot clan.

In a way Slash from Slash and Destroy was a sneek peek at what Raph will become.

[Warhorse]

My very rough prediction of all this:

It'll be late in season 3

The ideas always tossed around that someone switched sides because they're forced to, but I highly doubt that'll be the case with Raph, I'm thinking brainwashing.

I think it'll be shredder who does it, and probably because of something with karai. Either just her absence makes him want a new apprentice, maybe she turns human again and joins the turtles, so shredder takes someone from them, or just another attempt to hurt splinter after he finds out he's Alive.


Really excited for dark raph, because it'll be something different. Also sounds like Raphs getting a bulk of development this season

I like the idea of Shredder behind it, because in all the other incarnations, it was always Leo that had the Shredder stories, and it's is so refreshing to see someone finally break that mold.

[PangolinFeets]

I like the idea of Shredder behind it, because in all the other incarnations, it was always Leo that had the Shredder stories, and it's is so refreshing to see someone finally break that mold.

Agreed. It'd be great if it was the same basic story as the original, but switching Raph and Leo.


Also, I just wanna say...I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?p=1359202#post1359202

[Werecat]

There is a shot in the episode that sort of foreshadows Dark Raph in Vengeance is Mine.

During the point where the Shellraiser pulls up just as Shredder is explaining his evil evil plan to tiger claw. There is one moment of inside the Shellraiser that is largely focused on Raph and Splinter. Splinter is standing just behind Raph as he is putting on his Shuko spikes. Leo is in the far background with his back to the camera.

Donnie and Mikey are completely not seen except for Mikey's hand handing Donnie a smoke bomb egg in the foreground.



We do have a couple of episodes where Raph is told that his anger is his enemy. And in one of the Shredder/Splinter fights...Shredder does say that his anger fuels him and makes him strong. So Shredder may realizes that Karai is a lost cause, so he entices Raph to give into his rage and join the foot clan.

In a way Slash from Slash and Destroy was a sneek peek at what Raph will become.
What episode does Shredder say "his anger fuels him and makes him strong"? I dont remember that line.

[Darth Knuckles]

What episode does Shredder say "his anger fuels him and makes him strong"? I dont remember that line.

In The Invasion, Part 2 Shredder says "And I am stronger than ever. Fueled by anger, by rage!" It's when he and Splinter just start to fight. Splinter also says "Rage is a fuel that burns quickly." I did find it interesting that Shredder said that in that specific episode. Especially an episode where he defeated Splinter in the fight. He defeated him the way Raph usually is, with anger as an ally. So I did find that really interesting.

[HotNunchuckFury]

I'm excited to see this, it will be good for Raph to get more character development. Although one reason I believe City Fall had such a strong impact is because the one who switched sides was Leo - the leader, the eldest son, the most dedicated of the four to Master Splinter's teachings. I think with Raph it's generally half expected that at some point he'll wander off track, he's the one most likely to challenge things and rebel. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm very much looking forward to it, I just wonder if it will have the same impact.

[victory_angel]

In a way it seems that Raph is the only one who the Shredder would see promise in.

Leo is skilled but he's to loyal to Splinter...to noble. In "Kuro Kabuto" the Shredder does have a moment where he mocks Leo by saying that that he's pathetic but that is to be expected when his Sensei is a weak willed coward like Splinter.

Donnie and Mikey I don't see him having much value in. Donnie he would say is a weak fighter and like all weak fighters he should be eliminated because they have no place on the battle field. In the Shredder's eyes Donnie's only saving grace would be his intellect and that also would make him someone the Shredder would want to eliminate simply because it would cause the turtles would lose any advantage with him.

Mikey would be too random...too erratic...so at best Shredder would put him in the most dangerous missions with the hope he would perish along side the Shredder's foes.

But Raph he could see promise in because Raph does let his anger fuel his actions. So telling Raph that Splinter is holding back his potential and why should his weakling brothers shine while he is so much better then they are and should by rights shine brighter.

But with the Foot Clan, he will shine and his full potential will be unlocked. He would no longer be retrained or forced to play second fiddle to people who aren't even worth his time.

[IndigoErth]

If Raph ends up brainwashed to fight against his own family... Perhaps that may end up containing a rather nasty Leo/Raph encounter? Something akin to 2007? Though I hope all are involved, I can't see Leo being able to give it his all against his own brother, and I imagine that setup would be more dangerous to hold back than it was in 2007. :ohwell: If he zeros in on Leo hopefully Donnie and Mikey will have the opportunity to subdue him and get his ass out of that situation.

[Warhorse]

If Raph ends up brainwashed to fight against his own family... Perhaps that may end up containing a rather nasty Leo/Raph encounter? Something akin to 2007? Though I hope all are involved, I can't see Leo being able to give it his all against his own brother, and I imagine that setup would be more dangerous to hold back than it was in 2007. :ohwell: If he zeros in on Leo hopefully Donnie and Mikey will have the opportunity to subdue him and get his ass out of that situation.

Well, I read sypnosis of the City Fall story, and in that one, Raph was the main one dealing with the fighting of Leo, and it does mention he himself was not fighting Leo with everything he's got because he didn't want to hurt his brother, so, he actually started to talk to Leo, and try to get through him in that way, not physcially, but mentally. I'm pretty sure we're going to get something similar, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's Mikey who gets through to Raph in the end.

[snake]

City fall is a great arc. The way it leads into Northhampton is pretty cool as well.

[IndigoErth]

Well, I read sypnosis of the City Fall story, and in that one, Raph was the main one dealing with the fighting of Leo, and it does mention he himself was not fighting Leo with everything he's got because he didn't want to hurt his brother, so, he actually started to talk to Leo, and try to get through him in that way, not physcially, but mentally. I'm pretty sure we're going to get something similar, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's Mikey who gets through to Raph in the end.
Ah, ty. Would be great for Mikey if it's him. Though I also really love those moments/events that bring Leo and Raph closer together.

[victory_angel]

Well we never saw that beat down Slash gave Donnie. We just see Donnie getting dragged away and then when Raph and Mikey find him we are left with the impression that he was beaten and left for dead. And when he tells Raph and Mikey about what happened to him. he says the person that attacked him was like Raph, but angrier.

And also when the Shredder attempts to kill Donnie Raph is the one who deflects the killing blow

So maybe as a test of loyalty the Shredder has Raph face off against one of his brothers which turns out to be Donnie. Raph goes through with giving Donnie a beat down. But doesn't kill him. Instead he claims Donnie would more then likely not survive his injuries. So he should be left where the other Turtles could find him as a warning.

[Vicky82]

If Raph ends up brainwashed to fight against his own family... Perhaps that may end up containing a rather nasty Leo/Raph encounter? Something akin to 2007? Though I hope all are involved, I can't see Leo being able to give it his all against his own brother, and I imagine that setup would be more dangerous to hold back than it was in 2007. :ohwell: If he zeros in on Leo hopefully Donnie and Mikey will have the opportunity to subdue him and get his ass out of that situation.

Dark Raph vs Leo would be awesome

Well, I read sypnosis of the City Fall story, and in that one, Raph was the main one dealing with the fighting of Leo, and it does mention he himself was not fighting Leo with everything he's got because he didn't want to hurt his brother, so, he actually started to talk to Leo, and try to get through him in that way, not physcially, but mentally. I'm pretty sure we're going to get something similar, but I wouldn't be surprised that it's Mikey who gets through to Raph in the end.

I have a feeling that it will be Mikey that helps Raph. When Mikey calms Raph down in The Invasion, I think it is foreshadowing it but the next time it be in a more dangerous situation and Mikey could be putting his life in danger just to help bring back Raph to his senses.

I think at the end of season 3, we are going to see another badly injured turtle and it's not going to be Leo this time.

[Warhorse]

Dark Raph vs Leo would be awesome



I have a feeling that it will be Mikey that helps Raph. When Mikey calms Raph down in The Invasion, I think it is foreshadowing it but the next time it be in a more dangerous situation and Mikey could be putting his life in danger just to help bring back Raph to his senses.

I think at the end of season 3, we are going to see another badly injured turtle and it's not going to be Leo this time.

Or maybe not Raph either. We've already seen Raph and Leo on the brink of death already (Raph in the 1990 movie, Leo and Raph in the 2k3 and now Leo in 2012) But, I guess it's because the two more aggressive of the brothers are doing their jobs at keeping the sweeter brothers safe.

[aliena]

All of this sounds quite exciting and a bit alarming. God, it would be tough to watch Raph fight Leo, or Donnie, without caring about them. I hope they don't do any memory wiping as that is so sad when they get the person back.

I would like to see a huge fight between Raph and one of the other turtles. I would also like to see Mikey bring him back from Shredder's control. I wonder if this will be several episodes, so we can see them sans Raph for a while and how they deal with losing him in such a way, or if they will do this in one episode.

Are they sure they only want to do one more season after this one? There is so much to go through with new enemies, new allies, finding lost mothers, retromutagening mutated loved ones, possible love interests and the turtles growing up. :trazz:

Oh, and this would explain why we're getting nice and supportive Raph now, so later on we feel his loss way more.

[aliena]

I was the one who first heard about the Dark Raph storyline coming up. I asked Brandon Auman at the NYCC meet and greet about possible IDW storylines or characters being used in the cartoon (specifically Alopex).
To my best recollection, he said they try to stay away from IDW stories and stick more to old stuff like Mirage, the movies, and 2k3. "But," he said, glancing both ways nervously, "Spoilers: You know the whole Dark Leo storyline? We're going to have something loosely based on that, but with Dark Raph."

So all I know for certain, if you want to take Brandon Auman's word as fact, is that there will be a 'Dark Raph' in the near future. I doubt it'll be under the same circumstances (In the comics, Shredder wants an apprentice who is a born leader.). Perhaps Shredder wants Raph for his brute strength? Or maybe it isn't even Shredder that gets him. I'm thinking Bishop gets introduced and EPF does the deed. Or perhaps a new villain.


As for the comic, City Fall was what got me reading IDW. It's my favorite story so I'm insanely excited to see anything like it appear in the show.

I'm waiting for the collection book to come out so I can read the first four issues in one book, plus the one shots. The only problem is that they moved it from Oct to like Feb. I'm wondering if it will come out at all and if I should just buy the books separately. I'm not sure what to do, but I want to read it now so I can get caught up.

[Bitsy83]

Well we never saw that beat down Slash gave Donnie. We just see Donnie getting dragged away and then when Raph and Mikey find him we are left with the impression that he was beaten and left for dead. And when he tells Raph and Mikey about what happened to him. he says the person that attacked him was like Raph, but angrier.

And also when the Shredder attempts to kill Donnie Raph is the one who deflects the killing blow

So maybe as a test of loyalty the Shredder has Raph face off against one of his brothers which turns out to be Donnie. Raph goes through with giving Donnie a beat down. But doesn't kill him. Instead he claims Donnie would more then likely not survive his injuries. So he should be left where the other Turtles could find him as a warning.

This I could totally see happening. I mean, they'll probably go with the "Leo and Raph" fight because those two are always fighting, but if he went after Donnie, that'd be kinda neat.

I call myself a fan girl and yet i enjoy watching Donnie getting beaten up (in serious ways). What is WRONG with me?

Ok, though, back to this. I haven't yet watched the NYCC panel, so do they say HOW Raph goes bad or did they just mention him going to the dark side?

[ssjup81]

All of this sounds quite exciting and a bit alarming. God, it would be tough to watch Raph fight Leo, or Donnie, without caring about them. I hope they don't do any memory wiping as that is so sad when they get the person back.I'm hoping for some foreshadowing to be honest.I would like to see a huge fight between Raph and one of the other turtles. I would also like to see Mikey bring him back from Shredder's control. I wonder if this will be several episodes, so we can see them sans Raph for a while and how they deal with losing him in such a way, or if they will do this in one episode. If this is the case, I too am hoping that it's Mikey that brings Raph back. Personally, in the eps, even the disliked ones, I do feel that it shows certain traits of said characters.

For example, let's look at Mikey...

Eps like the Squirrelnoid, Shellacne, Parasitica, Of Rats and Men, and Pizzaface, to me, showed that Mikey can be intuitive and dark (Pizzaface, Of Rats and Men), so seeing him with a hollowed out Kraang corpse on his head with its tentacles tied around his arms didn't surprise me in the least, neither did his being able to survive in Dimension X alone. In Fungus Humungus, we saw how he tried to calm Raph down, which was used in the Invasion, only it was effective there. It's just his way, so I could definitely see Mikey being the one to get Raph back again.

Anyway, I hope there's some foreshadowing, unless there already has. For the most part, Raph has always been the type to look after his brothers. I could see him going dark as a way to keep them safe.

[Ashwolf]

I wonder if this will be several episodes, so we can see them sans Raph for a while and how they deal with losing him in such a way, or if they will do this in one episode.

I hope its more than 1 ep, though I could see it being in a single ep but it would be extremely rushed

[IndigoErth]

Of course, it could also be Splinter's fatherly powers that bring Raph back around. Maybe Karai will infiltrate and bring him back home.

Surely there will be a battle though; will be interesting to see what they do with all this since the show has matured to a later time slot.

[PangolinFeets]

This I could totally see happening. I mean, they'll probably go with the "Leo and Raph" fight because those two are always fighting, but if he went after Donnie, that'd be kinda neat.

I call myself a fan girl and yet i enjoy watching Donnie getting beaten up (in serious ways). What is WRONG with me?

Ok, though, back to this. I haven't yet watched the NYCC panel, so do they say HOW Raph goes bad or did they just mention him going to the dark side?

This info was not discussed at the panel. It was a spoiler leaked at the Meet and greet.

As for how it will go down, It would be a pretty powerful message if it started off with Raph taking down Donnie or Mikey. I feel like its going to end up being Donnie, since Leo or Mikey have the best shot of getting through to Raph.

I'm really looking forward to his new digs. Dark Leo looks so baller.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/39001/3212647-tmnt1.png

[aliena]

I was the one who first heard about the Dark Raph storyline coming up. I asked Brandon Auman at the NYCC meet and greet about possible IDW storylines or characters being used in the cartoon (specifically Alopex).
To my best recollection, he said they try to stay away from IDW stories and stick more to old stuff like Mirage, the movies, and 2k3. "But," he said, glancing both ways nervously, "Spoilers: You know the whole Dark Leo storyline? We're going to have something loosely based on that, but with Dark Raph."

So all I know for certain, if you want to take Brandon Auman's word as fact, is that there will be a 'Dark Raph' in the near future. I doubt it'll be under the same circumstances (In the comics, Shredder wants an apprentice who is a born leader.). Perhaps Shredder wants Raph for his brute strength? Or maybe it isn't even Shredder that gets him. I'm thinking Bishop gets introduced and EPF does the deed. Or perhaps a new villain.


As for the comic, City Fall was what got me reading IDW. It's my favorite story so I'm insanely excited to see anything like it appear in the show.

This info was not discussed at the panel. It was a spoiler leaked at the Meet and greet.

As for how it will go down, It would be a pretty powerful message if it started off with Raph taking down Donnie or Mikey. I feel like its going to end up being Donnie, since Leo or Mikey have the best shot of getting through to Raph.

I'm really looking forward to his new digs. Dark Leo looks so baller.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/39001/3212647-tmnt1.png


Man, that is so dark. Please tell me everything worked out okay in the end. How do you forgive someone you love once they turn on you and hurt you or your fellow family? I guess if they were brainwashed and are back to normal, you would do it slowly over time. Wow, they know how to torture us.

[PangolinFeets]

Man, that is so dark. Please tell me everything worked out okay in the end. How do you forgive someone you love once they turn on you and hurt you or your fellow family? I guess if they were brainwashed and are back to normal, you would do it slowly over time. Wow, they know how to torture us.

Well that leads into all those gorgeous Ross Campbell Northampton issues. There's a lot of hurt and confusion they have to deal with. You should absolutely read it for yourself. I feel like I keep spoiling chunks of it.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/PangolinFeets/Mobile%20Uploads/http3A2F2F41mediatumblrcom2F04fea913c7c8e697aedb54 cdfadbcc1e2Ftumblr_n3svoaRS5S1txdx1qo3_1280_zps056 f197b.jpg

[Vicky82]

I was watching The Invasion again and I noticed some foreshadowing. :D

When Splinter asked "Where is my Son", Shredder said "I took him, like I took your child, so many years ago".

[Warhorse]

Man, that is so dark. Please tell me everything worked out okay in the end. How do you forgive someone you love once they turn on you and hurt you or your fellow family? I guess if they were brainwashed and are back to normal, you would do it slowly over time. Wow, they know how to torture us.

Did you ever see Captain America 2? I would assume it would be the same scenario with the Turtles.

[aliena]

Did you ever see Captain America 2? I would assume it would be the same scenario with the Turtles.

I had that very scenario in mind when I thought about Raph being brainwashed. It was just as awful in Captain America, but he does seem to be able to come back from it, so not so awful.

[matteso586]

Something tells me that the City Fall arc will start in that spirit quest episode. I can also see why Auman said "loosely". The Turtles, Casey, and April are currently in North Hampton. And that Anton Zeck and Steranko's mutation possibly sets up the City Fall episode(s).

[Warhorse]

I wonder if the Dark Raph story arc is when we are going to find out how he got the chip on his plastron and crack on his shell?

[Tora]

Could be a Jekyll and Hyde type of thing where Ralph goes back and forth.

[Werecat]

I wonder if the Dark Raph story arc is when we are going to find out how he got the chip on his plastron and crack on his shell?

I was thinking that too. I wonder if it is a bad or good memory.

[victory_angel]

This is a possible theory but what if Donnie's tooth gap and Raph's Shell Chip happened in event. In Slash And Destroy Raph says "Donnie tried to blow up the lair...again!" Indicating that something like that has happened more then once . We know that Donne converting the remains of his bo staff into a rocket launcher which proceeds to go off in the lair. Maybe that wasn't the only other time can be so that maybe Donnie had another experiment that went wrong and Raph pushed Donnie out of harms way and was hit himself and Raph in response punches Donnie in the mouth knocking out his tooth. And that's why Donnie tends to be passive aggressive around Raph because he doesn't want to be on the receiving end of his anger again.

[Leofan26]

While this is one of the few plots of the season I'm looking forward to, I'm a little disappointed too at the same time. To me, Dark Raph would have fit in better with the 2003 series instead, his anger and intense rivalry with Leo add the mix of Leo / Karai stuff is more of a reason for him to turn into dark Raph instead if this version, he seems more relaxed and Calm here next to 80s Raph.

I'm still racking my brain why the sudden anger and dark Raph.
If any thing this would have been the perfect time to introduce dark Leo plot with what's happened to him and how he feels right now, it also could have given some real emotional scenes between the turtles, giving reasons for Leo to fight back against this darkness he's been feeling all along since the season two final even if brain washed he should still deep down be feeling these things.

Though yah, out of the turtles I'd say Leo has the best shot of getting through to Dark Raph.

[Warhorse]

I hope its more than 1 ep, though I could see it being in a single ep but it would be extremely rushed

I think this is going to be the season 3 two part finale, and it's left off as a cliffhanger to be resumed in a season 4 two part premier.

This is a possible theory but what if Donnie's tooth gap and Raph's Shell Chip happened in event. In Slash And Destroy Raph says "Donnie tried to blow up the lair...again!" Indicating that something like that has happened more then once . We know that Donne converting the remainst o his bo sta can b so that uaybe Donnie had another experiment that wentwrong and Raph pushed Donnie out of harms way and was hs hit himself and Raph in responce punches Donnie in the mouth knocking out his toooth.e viewed

Eh, I don't think so. I think Donnie was born with that. Some people are born with bucked teeth, some with large spaces between all teeth, some born with a tooth higher up on the gum, and like Donnie, born with a subtle tooth gap. Personally, I think they did that so people could tell the difference between him and Leo, because in some lighting, Donnie's mask looks more blue than purple.

I'm pretty sure the crack has something to do with Leonardo. Remember when Slash hit Leo for the first time, and he was like "I've been waiting a loooonnng time to do that!" That kind of anger had to come from somewhere, and not just out of the blue.

While this is one of the few plots of the season I'm looking forward to, I'm a little disappointed too at the same time. To me, Dark Raph would have fit in better with the 2003 series instead, his anger and intense rivalry with Leo add the mix of Leo / Karai stuff is more of a reason for him to turn into dark Raph instead if this version, he seems more relaxed and Calm here next to 80s Raph.

I'm still racking my brain why the sudden anger and dark Raph.
If any thing this would have been the perfect time to introduce dark Leo plot with what's happened to him and how he feels right now, it also could have given some real emotional scenes between the turtles, giving reasons for Leo to fight back against this darkness he's been feeling all along since the season two final even if brain washed he should still deep down be feeling these things.

Though yah, out of the turtles I'd say Leo has the best shot of getting through to Dark Raph.

You see, I think it's going to work perfectly for this Raphael. He usually lets his anger go via outbursts, smacking or outright arguments, even with Splinter. Now, as I see it, he's been bottling it up, trying to stay strong for the family since Splinter isn't there, but I'm pretty sure, when they get back to New York, he might make it his own personal vendetta to go after Shredder. Raph saw the beat down Splinter took, and Raph was the one who shouted out to Shredder he was a monster, not to mention Raph was the one who stayed by Leo's side the whole time, seeing the bruises on his brother. I've got a feeling they might take a few pages from the comics, where Raphael decided to go after Shredder himself, and Shredder happens to have something that he can use to brainwash Raphael and turn him against Splinter and his brothers.

[PangolinFeets]

When I think about it, City Fall is #12 issues or so? And then a few more in Northampton regarding the events of City Fall. Dark Raph could last the better half of a season.

[IndigoErth]

I'm pretty sure the crack has something to do with Leonardo. Remember when Slash hit Leo for the first time, and he was like "I've been waiting a loooonnng time to do that!"
Personally I took that as "Spike" simply being a silent witness to the frequent arguments between those two over the years and no doubt probably being the audience to much of Raph's venting behind closed doors.

Kinda hope the permanent damage isn't Leo's fault... Some Raph fans seem to adopt an attitude against Leo as it is, would prefer it not be fed further.

Still think if it was caused by a katana he should rightfully have a matching scar across shoulder, but he doesn't.

Would be better imo if the damage stood more as a badge of honor from an incident, rather than being the victim of something. Though if he had it upon mutating I hope people aren't overly disappointed if it turns out to be a simple reason.

[PangolinFeets]

While this is one of the few plots of the season I'm looking forward to, I'm a little disappointed too at the same time. To me, Dark Raph would have fit in better with the 2003 series instead, his anger and intense rivalry with Leo add the mix of Leo / Karai stuff is more of a reason for him to turn into dark Raph instead if this version, he seems more relaxed and Calm here next to 80s Raph.
City Fall only came out early this year. But I am surprised it was a new concept when it launched.

I'm still racking my brain why the sudden anger and dark Raph.
If any thing this would have been the perfect time to introduce dark Leo plot with what's happened to him and how he feels right now, it also could have given some real emotional scenes between the turtles, giving reasons for Leo to fight back against this darkness he's been feeling all along since the season two final even if brain washed he should still deep down be feeling these things.

Though yah, out of the turtles I'd say Leo has the best shot of getting through to Dark Raph.

Leo seems to be handling all this pretty well while Raph did not. He loses it and nearly belts Mikey at the end of S2. Leo would make more sense for me if he wasn't handling the recovery process well.

[Bitsy83]

Ever since i saw the concept art for "Speed Demon" and the "China Town" episode, I'm sort of wondering how much supernatural stuff exists in this universe. We already know that ghosts can be trapped in daggers and use "special martial arts that look like magic" to give special abilities to their minions. And according to what people have been saying, this "speed demon" is Donnie possessed, not double mutated.

So....I wonder what made Donatello turn into a reptilian version of Rat Fink?

Reason why I bring this up is I wonder if that's the angle they're going to use with Dark Raph. Let's say there was some mystical artifact or token that was attached to the car (hood ornament, bobble head, etc.) and Donnie comes in contact with it, which ends up controlling him and possesses his body.

Now let's say there's more than one of these tokens. And each token represents a different demon connected with a particular emotion.

For example, let's say that the token attached to the car Donnie finds represents pride. Since we still don't know what the writers are planning with this love triangle, maybe Donatello still feels the need to find a way to impress April. So while search for parts at a nearby junk heap, Donnie finds this snazzy car and decides to use it to impress April. With his brother's help, he gets it home and starts to work on it, only to find it eating away at his mind and making him obsessed with it. Ok, maybe PRIDE isn't a good one to use. I dunno....greed? Self-absorbtion?

Anyway, you get what I'm saying with that.

Now, about Raphael. What if the other token we find is connected to rage? Anger? And when Raphael reaches a certain limit of anger, it activates the token and it possesses his mind? Like, he's still Raph, but all the darkness and hatred inside Raphael is in control.

We all have good and bad in us. Like someone said, maybe a Jekyll and Hyde thing is going on here. (I ALWAYS loved those types of stories!) But even though Raph has his anger issues, he always knew when he went too far and does have a good heart. But what if the said-token cut off that part of him? Can you imagine a Rpahael without a conscience or self-control?

Just a plot bunny. I actually have a better idea for what the Speed Demon episode will be about, but it would be neat if some artifact was on the car.

[jenna]

Just stumbled across this thread.... wow. Intriguing!

I'd be very interested in how Raph makes the transition. Is it brainwashing / something beyond his control? Or is it something that actually he takes a role of responsibility in? How bad do things have to get for him before he is pushed over the edge and makes some bad choices?

I'm not saying I think that Raphael would consciously chose an alliance with the Shredder, because he wouldn't. He's far too loyal and loves his family too much for that.

But..... a 'dark Raph' story arc has real opportunity to explore Raphael's anger and its source, and how alienated he sometimes seems from his family, and I for one would like to see it done in a way in which Raphael must carry some of the responsibility for whatever happens to him.

Really, all I ever want from any incarnation of Raph is to see him confront his demons.

Either way... can't wait to see this story.

[PangolinFeets]

Just stumbled across this thread.... wow. Intriguing!

I'd be very interested in how Raph makes the transition. Is it brainwashing / something beyond his control? Or is it something that actually he takes a role of responsibility in? How bad do things have to get for him before he is pushed over the edge and makes some bad choices?

I'm not saying I think that Raphael would consciously chose an alliance with the Shredder, because he wouldn't. He's far too loyal and loves his family too much for that.

But..... a 'dark Raph' story arc has real opportunity to explore Raphael's anger and its source, and how alienated he sometimes seems from his family, and I for one would like to see it done in a way in which Raphael must carry some of the responsibility for whatever happens to him.

Really, all I ever want from any incarnation of Raph is to see him confront his demons.

Either way... can't wait to see this story.
If you go by the City Fall story, Raphael will be kidnapped by Shredder. The demon kitsune changes his memories to show Shredder caring for him and Splinter doing him harm. It gets complicated in IDW because Leo was human in another life and those memories are screwed up and the memory of his mother haunts him.

But I doubt this is going to be much like the IDW story. Raphael could make a somewhat conscious decision to leave his family.


I have to say, I'm so excited about this that I started writing fanfic again. @.@ Its been fifteen years. Lol

[Luckyday]

If you go by the City Fall story, Raphael will be kidnapped by Shredder. The demon kitsune changes his memories to show Shredder caring for him and Splinter doing him harm. It gets complicated in IDW because Leo was human in another life and those memories are screwed up and the memory of his mother haunts him.

But I doubt this is going to be much like the IDW story. Raphael could make a somewhat conscious decision to leave his family.


I have to say, I'm so excited about this that I started writing fanfic again. @.@ Its been fifteen years. Lol

Or maybe he go through a double mutation and become Tokka. Tokka sounds like a japanese name that Shredder would give him.

[Warhorse]

If you go by the City Fall story, Raphael will be kidnapped by Shredder. The demon kitsune changes his memories to show Shredder caring for him and Splinter doing him harm. It gets complicated in IDW because Leo was human in another life and those memories are screwed up and the memory of his mother haunts him.

But I doubt this is going to be much like the IDW story. Raphael could make a somewhat conscious decision to leave his family.


I have to say, I'm so excited about this that I started writing fanfic again. @.@ Its been fifteen years. Lol

Well, it was said that dark Raph would be loosely based on the dark Leo arc, so we kind of have to keep that in mind when speculating. Obvious, the Tang Shen reaching out to Raph isn't going to happen, but, maybe Leo or Splinter can do it via meditation. Also, it's speculated that either Mikey, Leo or Splinter and perhaps Casey might be the one to reach out to Raph, but that is so predictable, it would be nice if it was Donnie for a change.

[IndigoErth]

Obvious, the Tang Shen reaching out to Raph isn't going to happen
I dunno, might not be the reincarnation version (I think the Leo story is?), but we've already had one paranormal episode... The ghost of their would-be adoptive mother? He'd at least recognize her from her photos. Unlikely scenario, but if that happened and she reached out to him... :tcry:

Still thinking Karai might play a role in getting him out of there though. His brothers or father will surely be the ones to get through to him, but if she helps get his butt out of there... could be good for his connection with Karai and his opinion of her.

[victory_angel]

Maybe Raph gets amnesia somehow and he gets found by the Foot Clan. The Foot take advantage of the situation by telling him he's a member of the their team. And their enemy is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Raph not knowing anything else believes this and sides with the Foot against his brothers.

And the Shredder sees an advantage of having one of Splinter's sons on his side because it would break Yoshi to see one of his own on the side of his enemy. While Raph's memories return he likes being on the side of the Foot because he feels less restrained without a father and three brothers judging him for what he does.

He does try to play mole though, because just because he's batting for the other team doesn't mean he wants to see his family suffer and die. But he doesn't want to loose his cover either so he's conflicted with his actions.

So perhaps he can inform the Foot that one of his brothers can create Retromutagen and it would only be a matter of time before he has enough to cure Karai. Maybe Raph even tries to make sure Donnie has enough retromutagen for Karai. And even insists that he be the one who retrieves the Retromutagen from the Turtle figuring he could just take it, tell Donnie to lay low for a week or so, and he can just claim Donnie was killed in retrieval.

But Shredder tells Raph to take Tiger Claw with him and be sure to kill the Turtle when they get the Retromutagen.

[snake]

Ever since i saw the concept art for "Speed Demon" and the "China Town" episode, I'm sort of wondering how much supernatural stuff exists in this universe. We already know that ghosts can be trapped in daggers and use "special martial arts that look like magic" to give special abilities to their minions. And according to what people have been saying, this "speed demon" is Donnie possessed, not double mutated.

So....I wonder what made Donatello turn into a reptilian version of Rat Fink?

Reason why I bring this up is I wonder if that's the angle they're going to use with Dark Raph. Let's say there was some mystical artifact or token that was attached to the car (hood ornament, bobble head, etc.) and Donnie comes in contact with it, which ends up controlling him and possesses his body.

Now let's say there's more than one of these tokens. And each token represents a different demon connected with a particular emotion.

For example, let's say that the token attached to the car Donnie finds represents pride. Since we still don't know what the writers are planning with this love triangle, maybe Donatello still feels the need to find a way to impress April. So while search for parts at a nearby junk heap, Donnie finds this snazzy car and decides to use it to impress April. With his brother's help, he gets it home and starts to work on it, only to find it eating away at his mind and making him obsessed with it. Ok, maybe PRIDE isn't a good one to use. I dunno....greed? Self-absorbtion?

Anyway, you get what I'm saying with that.

Now, about Raphael. What if the other token we find is connected to rage? Anger? And when Raphael reaches a certain limit of anger, it activates the token and it possesses his mind? Like, he's still Raph, but all the darkness and hatred inside Raphael is in control.

We all have good and bad in us. Like someone said, maybe a Jekyll and Hyde thing is going on here. (I ALWAYS loved those types of stories!) But even though Raph has his anger issues, he always knew when he went too far and does have a good heart. But what if the said-token cut off that part of him? Can you imagine a Rpahael without a conscience or self-control?

Just a plot bunny. I actually have a better idea for what the Speed Demon episode will be about, but it would be neat if some artifact was on the car.

Have 6 different tokens controlled by six different demons (Speed Demon, maybe Ho Chan) and the turtles would have to destroy them. That would make for a great story.

[Allio]

honestly, I feel like if anyone were to go to the foot in the Nick cartoon, it would be Donnie

if for any reason, it just feels like the love triangle probably mirrors the Yoshi/Teng/Saki relationship

[PangolinFeets]

honestly, I feel like if anyone were to go to the foot in the Nick cartoon, it would be Donnie

if for any reason, it just feels like the love triangle probably mirrors the Yoshi/Teng/Saki relationship

If Dark Donnie became a thing, no one would stand a chance. They would be so ****ed.

[Ashwolf]

Maybe Raph gets amnesia somehow and he gets found by the Foot Clan. The Foot take advantage of the situation by telling him he's a member of the their team. And their enemy is the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Raph not knowing anything else believes this and sides with the Foot against his brothers.

being reminded about how he got the chip on his plastron might be what snaps him out of it

[ssjup81]

If Dark Donnie became a thing, no one would stand a chance. They would be so ****ed.This reminds me of two OT eps..."Donatello's Duplicate" and "The Dark Turtle".

Donatello made that clone who was very egotistical and didn't care that he was helping the bad guys, as long as he was recognized for his genius, which is something the real Donatello wanted as well as being appreciated. For his clone to act in such a way, the feelings, and the potential had to have been there. May also explain his apathy towards humans and why he, as well as Raph, sided with Havic...the apathy thing.

The Dark Turtle had an insane Donny on a mission to kill Shredder, which he would've if the others wouldn't have stopped him...and censors, of course. :P. Maybe unstable works better. It wouldn't have happened in the first place if he hadn't been pushed by the others.

I know, off topic, but that's what I think of when I hear "dark Donny" in a goofy setting, and 2k12 Turtles is pretty goofy.

[victory_angel]

This reminds me of two OT eps..."Donatello's Duplicate" and "The Dark Turtle".

Donatello made that clone who was very egotistical and didn't care that he was helping the bad guys, as long as he was recognized for his genius, which is something the real Donatello wanted as well as being appreciated. For his clone to act in such a way, the feelings, and the potential had to have been there. May also explain his apathy towards humans and why he, as well as Raph, sided with Havic...the apathy thing.

The Dark Turtle had an insane Donny on a mission to kill Shredder, which he would've if the others wouldn't have stopped him...and censors, of course. :P. Maybe unstable works better. It wouldn't have happened in the first place if he hadn't been pushed by the others.

I know, off topic, but that's what I think of when I hear "dark Donny" in a goofy setting, and 2k12 Turtles is pretty goofy.

Donnie's intellect has sometimes made him arrogant such as when he make comments such as in Donatello's double where he says "I'm a scientist not a handy man."

Or when he was saying he should be leader because he's smarter then Leo, Raph, and Mikey combined. And of course where he was complaining to Timothy about Casey he says "Why would she like him? Because he's human that's why! Big deal..you know how many people are human?"

But depending on what incarnation you are watching Donnie either has no regrets about his arrogant ego clouding his judgment. While other incarnations he does try to to make an effort of showing that just because he's smarter then everyone else does not consider himself as better then everyone else.

In the 2012 version Donnie does try to be a selfless genius. Most of the time his efforts are for the betterment of his friends and family if not the whole world. However selfless teenager is a bit of an oxymoron, because on some levels Donnie does display a desire of self interest in what he does. Be it gaining affection from April, or his brother and father recognizing and appreciating his efforts.

And he is aware of this flaw in his personality as well because it comes back to bite him every so often.
One such moment is during the invasion when Donnie and Leo were arguing over what plan was better. Donnie insists that his invention is the end all that stops the invasion. But after Leo leads the Kraang away so Donnie, April, and Mikey get to safety his attitude changes from "my way or the high way" to "what have I done?"

[Warhorse]

I dunno, might not be the reincarnation version (I think the Leo story is?), but we've already had one paranormal episode... The ghost of their would-be adoptive mother? He'd at least recognize her from her photos. Unlikely scenario, but if that happened and she reached out to him... :tcry:

Still thinking Karai might play a role in getting him out of there though. His brothers or father will surely be the ones to get through to him, but if she helps get his butt out of there... could be good for his connection with Karai and his opinion of her.

I think Raph's already come around to Karai. He was the last Turtle trying to find her in the end, and I thought that was kind of sweet that he refused to give up finding Splinter's daughter. Sometimes, I do feel sorry for Raph in certain situations. Donnie's mind has been so clouded because of the April and Casey thing, Leo is also feeling down in the dumps because of Splinter gaining and losing his daughter within a 24 hour period, and Mikey tends to not want to take any sense of responsibility, so Raph has to shoulder the burden of trying to keep what little he family has together.

[zantha]

I am not against a dark raph storyline at all, I just as some others have said see it as, as things stand now making more sense for it to be Donnie.

Donnie has something that shredder wants, the retomutagen. that would be enough of a reason for him to want Donnie on his side. Donnie also to me has more conflict with his brothers and friends than Raph dose right now. of course a lot can change before the storylines happens.

I also like that if it was Donnie, then we can have references like calling him Donnie darko.

[victory_angel]

I am not against a dark raph storyline at all, I just as some others have said see it as, as things stand now making more sense for it to be Donnie.

Donnie has something that shredder wants, the retomutagen. that would be enough of a reason for him to want Donnie on his side. Donnie also to me has more conflict with his brothers and friends than Raph dose right now. of course a lot can change before the storylines happens.

I also like that if it was Donnie, then we can have references like calling him Donnie darko.

I understand your views on this and I agree. It would make sense for Donnie to turn to the darkside. However Donnie's personality is too gentle natured for the Foot Clan. Yes Donnie has his violent and vindictive moments but the Foot Clan would destroy him emotionally, mentally and physically. And Donnie's weapon is one the Shredder would see as belonging to a weak willed coward so in other words Splinter's son through and through.

And in the Shredder's mind having a Turtle have the ability to create the very substance he needs to return Karai to human. He would see that as a means to restore Karai, and also a threat to his mutant army. So I see the Shredder wanting to see Donnie eliminated as soon as possible just so the Turtles won't have that advantage.

[Bitsy83]

I am not against a dark raph storyline at all, I just as some others have said see it as, as things stand now making more sense for it to be Donnie.

Donnie has something that shredder wants, the retomutagen. that would be enough of a reason for him to want Donnie on his side. Donnie also to me has more conflict with his brothers and friends than Raph dose right now. of course a lot can change before the storylines happens.

I also like that if it was Donnie, then we can have references like calling him Donnie darko.

Ever since season 1, I really thought they WERE going to go for a "Dark Donnie" angle. You know, with the Tang Shen parallels with him, Casey, and April.

Could still happen, though.

You're right. Shredder wants retromutagen; Donnie is considered sort of the weakest member of the group fighting-wise (Heck, Mikey has TWO weapons!). Growing up, I wonder if Donnie was curious as to why Leo and Raph trained with metal weapons while he was given a stick.

The only way Donnie would join the Foot willingly was if April rejected him, which looks like it's not going to happen after "A Foot Too Big.".....unless there was a huge misunderstanding and Casey lied to Donnie, making him THINK that April didn't want him, but that would be way too douchy on Casey's part.

I actually started a fan fiction awhile back where Donnie goes through something like this. I want to keep writing it, but i have this weird thing about writing AU fan fictions. I like my stories to be as accurate as possible without derailing the original storyline. Still......(sees unfinished documents on computer)

[zantha]

i don't know about willing. when the shredder finds out if he doesn't already know that Donnie can male retromutagen. while yes he would not want the turtles to have that knowledge, he would also not want to lose said knowledge if it could cure Karia. also as you said he would see Donnie as being weak, therefore an eassy target.

the way it could play out is, as we know getting them back into NY will be hard and Donnie will play a large part in that. this effort as well as keeping Leo alive in the break, with help of course, saving Raph in S301, and the other stuff he does with little at times appreciated or acknowledgement, toped with feelings of guilt and maybe April and Casey, begin to stress him out. as had said been before in other places, it is a wonder he hasn't had a major break down yet.

with this going, shredder finds out about the retomutagen. as said before seeing Donnie as weak so he kidnaps him. gets him to make the retomustagen, with the goal of killing him after. as he is working on the retomutagen maybe he tries to get away, shows that he is a capable ninja or shredder realises that he maybe an asset to him, as he is smarted than Stockman. so he offers him praise and encouragement about his intelligence, something I don't think he gets much form his family as they don't understand him. he starts to feel that he is appreciated for once.

there is a fanfic I read that sort of has this plot, sinister plot is it yours

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9940256/1/Sinister-Plot

[Werecat]

Ever since season 1, I really thought they WERE going to go for a "Dark Donnie" angle. You know, with the Tang Shen parallels with him, Casey, and April.

Could still happen, though.

You're right. Shredder wants retromutagen; Donnie is considered sort of the weakest member of the group fighting-wise (Heck, Mikey has TWO weapons!). Growing up, I wonder if Donnie was curious as to why Leo and Raph trained with metal weapons while he was given a stick.

The only way Donnie would join the Foot willingly was if April rejected him, which looks like it's not going to happen after "A Foot Too Big.".....unless there was a huge misunderstanding and Casey lied to Donnie, making him THINK that April didn't want him, but that would be way too douchy on Casey's part.

I actually started a fan fiction awhile back where Donnie goes through something like this. I want to keep writing it, but i have this weird thing about writing AU fan fictions. I like my stories to be as accurate as possible without derailing the original storyline. Still......(sees unfinished documents on computer)

No no no. That plot is extremely offensive. Donnie turning dark just because a girl rejects him. That plot just serves to subliminally tell girls/males that if they reject someone then the person would turn evil and do them harm. Basically herding them into unwanted relationships. You're basically supporting the whole "Girl, if you reject a guy you will die" mentality. Just a poor taste to begin with.

I dunno about you. But shizz like this can be bad for the next generation to get stuck in their head.

A story needs to have a meaning. The Donnie Darko shizz is poor taste and has no reason other then to explore your fantasies. lol Donnie Darko.

I have no clue what they have for this Dark Raph plot. But I know the reason and moral of the story is gonna be about overcoming corruption. There will be no poor tasting subliminal message such as the one present in the whole Dark donnie. Basically reminding me of Twilight, the whole point of the story is to tell girls that their life has no meaning if they don't have a boyfriend.

I think a critically acclaimed author had an opinion about the comparison of Twilight and Harry Potter. It was Stephen King who said this:
“Harry Potter is about confronting fears, finding inner strength and doing
what is right in the face of adversity. Twilight is about how important it
is to have a boyfriend.”

[zantha]

April doesn't have to have anything to do with it. Donnie does a lot for the team that only he can do, and I could see him getting frustrated with the lack of appreciation and understanding of all that he does. he is also underestimated by his older brothers as a fighter. if shredder was to offer him a huge lab and show appreciation for his knowledge and skills it could happen. the fic I linked does a good job of really descripting how this would work. I don't think the dark Donnie idea is offensive at all. if all about a girl than it is bad writing, but I don't think it would be for it to have real impact.

[IndigoErth]

A Dark Donnie could be cool if for the right reasons. Though it could be argued that they all have a habit of not appreciating each other enough. But in a way I suppose it's relateable for many, if not most.

Donnie turning dark just because a girl rejects him. That plot just serves to subliminally tell girls/males that if they reject someone then the person would turn evil and do them harm. Basically herding them into unwanted relationships. You're basically supporting the whole "Girl, if you reject a guy you will die" mentality. Just a poor taste to begin with.
Yeaaahh... avoiding that would be for the best imo. Too much in the news too often already. These damn kids that have decided they can't handle feeling hurt, a normal part of life, and have to get even. Shows should avoid justifying that behavior.

[victory_angel]

I don't see Donnie accepting the a lab whatever from the Shredder if it's payed for in his families blood. I mean subconsciously he may want that...but he desires to really prove his worth to his family and earning a lab and appreciation from his enemy would feel hollow.

And as people have pointed out Donnie is stretched multiple directions. As he is a ninja strategist, scientist, and engineer first and foremost and on top of that he's family Doctor, handy man, mechanic, plummer, technician, and therapist.
All of which is done with little to no thanks or appreciation.
But some of this can be addressed in the speed demon episode that is coming up and also any other episodes where Donnie is rendered out of commission.


However Raph is more likely to feel enticed by the Shredder. Because Raph has complained that he feels restrained by his family that he'd be better off on his own without them.

And it's that mentality that Slash uses with Raphael before Raph see's what Slash was doing to his brothers. Raph also sometimes makes a mountain out of a mole hill about things. Such as when Donnie nearly blows up the lair in Slash and destroy.

The big difference between the end of metalhead and the beginning of Slash and Destroy is that in Metalhead when Donnie makes that rocket launcher he knew that could potentially have gone off in the lair. It wasn't supposed to but it potentially could. And at worst he probably got yelled at by Raph, a lecture from both Splinter and Leo about how foolish it was to build something so dangerous and then being forced to clean up the damages on his own.

With Slash and Destroy the event was an honest to god accident, Donnie didn't know that reaction would happen and had even gone to see if his family was okay. This doesn't mean Raph shouldn't have been justifiably upset after all Spike had nearly been killed and worse could have happened.
And yes some responsibility did lie with Donnie about that. But at the same result without the events of the rest of the episode at worse it would have been cleaning up the lair and then Donnie and Splinter having a long talk about the evenings events.

However when Donnie is attacked by Slash he says the person who attacked him was like Raph but angrier.

If Donnie was abducted and forced to create retromutagen, he would more then likely omit the fact that April's DNA is key as he would rather take that knowledge to the grave with him then let April be harmed for it.

Shredder also has a habit of not trusting people. He doesn't see people as friends or allies he see's them as tools. And once a person has ceased to have any use they are to be discarded and disposed of. So if Raph is enticed or brain washed into serving the foot, he is going to want to test Raph's effectiveness and loyalty and that test would involve seeing if he would fold if he had to fight one of his brothers. And logically it would make more sense to take out the one the Turtles would have more of an advantage with then without.

Particularly if it is done when Donnie has the retromutagen, because if he's seriously injured when the Retromutagen is taken from him Leo and Mikey are going to focus more on getting Donnie to safety then worrying about the retromutagen.

[Warhorse]

therapist.


When has he ever shown being a therapist? So far, believe it or not, I see Raph filling that in with his pep talks. Donnie is too unstable to be a therapist for anyone.

[victory_angel]

When has he ever shown being a therapist? So far, believe it or not, I see Raph filling that in with his pep talks. Donnie is too unstable to be a therapist for anyone.

When I mean therapist in the sense of someone to go to when you have something you need to talk about and you just need someone who would listen to you.

If want someone to pull you out of your funk then Raph is your Turtle. But you need someone who is a listener then Donnie it the one you want.

In the end of Enemy of my Enemy there is a moment where Donnie notices Leo is down in the dumps about Karai and he does attempt to comfort his brother by pointing out the positive outcome.

In fungus humongous where Casey is talking to Raph and April is talking to Donnie about what they had experienced. Raph is too exhausted to give a care about Casey so he sits with a paper over his face barely listening. But Donnie sits next to April and he's listening to her even though he has an ice pack to his head and h looks like he needs to go lie down somewhere.

And while Leo was unconscious Donnie may very well have had some moments as a physical therapist. With coma patients there are physical therapists who come in and do massage work on the patient to make sure the joints don't ware away to nothing due to lack of use. And this is something I could see Donnie doing. Or Donnie at least instructing Raph in doing.

[Warhorse]

When I mean therapist in the sense of someone to go to when you have something you need to talk about and you just need someone who would listen to you.

If want someone to pull you out of your funk then Raph is your Turtle. But you need someone who is a listener then Donnie it the one you want.

In the end of Enemy of my Enemy there is a moment where Donnie notices Leo is down in the dumps about Karai and he does attempt to comfort his brother by pointing out the positive outcome.

In fungus humongous where Casey is talking to Raph and April is talking to Donnie about what they had experienced. Raph is too exhausted to give a care about Casey so he sits with a paper over his face barely listening. But Donnie sits next to April and he's listening to her even though he has an ice pack to his head and h looks like he needs to go lie down somewhere.

And while Leo was unconscious Donnie may very well have had some moments as a physical therapist. With coma patients there are physical therapists who come in and do massage work on the patient to make sure the joints don't ware away to nothing due to lack of use. And this is something I could see Donnie doing. Or Donnie at least instructing Raph in doing.
Sorry, I disagree. Donnie is still the least likely Turtle. I'd go to Mikey before I would go to Donnie. In this version anyways. There is a reason why Mikey is the heart of the team. Why do you think April was quick to talk to Casey about her mom, or Leo, and not Donnie?

[Luckyday]

Sorry, I disagree. Donnie is still the least likely Turtle. I'd go to Mikey before I would go to Donnie. In this version anyways. There is a reason why Mikey is the heart of the team. Why do you think April was quick to talk to Casey about her mom, or Leo, and not Donnie?

Maybe because she didn't want to say how her mom feels about them? She was making April decide who her real family was.

[victory_angel]

Sorry, I disagree. Donnie is still the least likely Turtle. I'd go to Mikey before I would go to Donnie. In this version anyways. There is a reason why Mikey is the heart of the team. Why do you think April was quick to talk to Casey about her mom, or Leo, and not Donnie?

With the mom thing April spoke to Casey about it because he would understand the need to be with family particularly with one she has not seen since she was a small child.

And if she wanted to be with he mom then they shouldn't stop her from doing that. But the Turtles they have never had a mom before, the only parent they've had was a father figure and he's gone. So in a way they had wanted to think of April's mother as their mom as well.

So if April had gone to one of the Turtles particularly Donnie they would have felt sad at the rejection and they would have told April that they understood if she wanted to go because this is her family. But Donnie would also make a plea for her stay.

[Warhorse]

With the mom thing April spoke to Casey about it because he would understand the need to be with family particularly with one she has not seen since she was a small child.

And if she wanted to be with he mom then they shouldn't stop her from doing that. But the Turtles they have never had a mom before, the only parent they've had was a father figure and he's gone. So in a way they had wanted to think of April's mother as their mom as well.

So if April had gone to one of the Turtles particularly Donnie they would have felt sad at the rejection and they would have told April that they understood if she wanted to go because this is her family. But Donnie would also make a plea for her stay.

Regardless, it was still Leo who held out his hand in support, and that is more theraputic for April than anything Donnie has done. I stand by what I said. Donnie may wear many hats, but therapist is not one of them, not by a long shot!

[PangolinFeets]

Regardless, it was still Leo who held out his hand in support, and that is more theraputic for April than anything Donnie has done. I stand by what I said. Donnie may wear many hats, but therapist is not one of them, not by a long shot!

I agree with you there. I love Donnie, but he's definitely more of the physical nurturer than emotional. I feel like he's the one to keep a cool head when there's a medical problem because he's comfortable with his science and numbers. Feelings are obviously a little harder for him to grasp.

[IndigoErth]

I agree with you there. I love Donnie, but he's definitely more of the physical nurturer than emotional. I feel like he's the one to keep a cool head when there's a medical problem because he's comfortable with his science and numbers. Feelings are obviously a little harder for him to grasp.
Yeah, I could see Donnie doing well with med school. He'd be the one out there fixing you up and finding cures for disease.

Off topic, but as for the others...
Raph: Somewhat drill sergeant-like life coach or correctional officer.
Mikey: Motivational speaker.
Leo: Therapist or (naturally) ninjutsu instructor with plenty of the mediation and deep inner-self connectedness teachings included.

[ssjup81]

I could see Donnie as a listener, not the one to give out advice, as Raph or Mikey probably would be good for that. There are different types of therapists, though. I feel that it'd be in-character for Donnie to just listen if someone needs to be complained to. I dunno, I got that vibe in Of Mice and Men with Mikey hanging around Donnie in his lab. Donnie can multitask after all.

[Vicky82]

Minae Noji has a secret role in the show so I wonder if her character (maybe Ninjara) could be involved in the Dark Raph Storyline.

[aliena]

Ever since i saw the concept art for "Speed Demon" and the "China Town" episode, I'm sort of wondering how much supernatural stuff exists in this universe. We already know that ghosts can be trapped in daggers and use "special martial arts that look like magic" to give special abilities to their minions. And according to what people have been saying, this "speed demon" is Donnie possessed, not double mutated.

So....I wonder what made Donatello turn into a reptilian version of Rat Fink?

Reason why I bring this up is I wonder if that's the angle they're going to use with Dark Raph. Let's say there was some mystical artifact or token that was attached to the car (hood ornament, bobble head, etc.) and Donnie comes in contact with it, which ends up controlling him and possesses his body.

Now let's say there's more than one of these tokens. And each token represents a different demon connected with a particular emotion.

For example, let's say that the token attached to the car Donnie finds represents pride. Since we still don't know what the writers are planning with this love triangle, maybe Donatello still feels the need to find a way to impress April. So while search for parts at a nearby junk heap, Donnie finds this snazzy car and decides to use it to impress April. With his brother's help, he gets it home and starts to work on it, only to find it eating away at his mind and making him obsessed with it. Ok, maybe PRIDE isn't a good one to use. I dunno....greed? Self-absorbtion?

Anyway, you get what I'm saying with that.

Now, about Raphael. What if the other token we find is connected to rage? Anger? And when Raphael reaches a certain limit of anger, it activates the token and it possesses his mind? Like, he's still Raph, but all the darkness and hatred inside Raphael is in control.

We all have good and bad in us. Like someone said, maybe a Jekyll and Hyde thing is going on here. (I ALWAYS loved those types of stories!) But even though Raph has his anger issues, he always knew when he went too far and does have a good heart. But what if the said-token cut off that part of him? Can you imagine a Rpahael without a conscience or self-control?

Just a plot bunny. I actually have a better idea for what the Speed Demon episode will be about, but it would be neat if some artifact was on the car.

You ideas are marvelous! I'd love to see all of that happen. I get a feeling that somehow when Donnie is possessed that this will bring about April's feelings and possibly she will finally become his girlfriend, or tell him she doesn't want to be his girlfriend. Hopefully, it will finally be resolved. This storyline could be a homage to the book, and movie, Christine.

The thing that I love about your idea about Raph is that it just fits so perfectly with what might happen to him. I can just imagine him telling people exactly how he feels about whatever, April to Donatello, Leo getting injured, Mikey being a goofball, and just destroying relationships by doing that. It kind of reminds me of Angel on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He lost his soul and a demon moved in. He said, and did, horrible things to people. It took a long time to rebuild trust.

However...to push a bit further with your idea of the tokens, what if one of them is for Mikey and it has to do with love? That could be why he falls for Renet, because honestly, I can't see Mikey falling in love and being all romantically mushy with a girl. I just can't see that now as his character is. Maybe if they matured him up a lot and made him more like the movie Mikey, not sure I want that either, then I could maybe see it.

I just think if he gets obsessed with her to a point of being out of control, that could be a demon at work there too. On a side thought, doesn't Renet time travel or something? Could she be the key to saving Raph?

That just leaves Leo. Will he also have a token episode too and could these tokens coincide with the vision quest episodes? If Leo does get an emotion, what would it be? You've opened up lots of ideas in my head now.

[victory_angel]

You ideas are marvelous! I'd love to see all of that happen. I get a feeling that somehow when Donnie is possessed that this will bring about April's feelings and possibly she will finally become his girlfriend, or tell him she doesn't want to be his girlfriend. Hopefully, it will finally be resolved. This storyline could be a homage to the book, and movie, Christine.

The thing that I love about your idea about Raph is that it just fits so perfectly with what might happen to him. I can just imagine him telling people exactly how he feels about whatever, April to Donatello, Leo getting injured, Mikey being a goofball, and just destroying relationships by doing that. It kind of reminds me of Angel on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He lost his soul and a demon moved in. He said, and did, horrible things to people. It took a long time to rebuild trust.

However...to push a bit further with your idea of the tokens, what if one of them is for Mikey and it has to do with love? That could be why he falls for Renet, because honestly, I can't see Mikey falling in love and being all romantically mushy with a girl. I just can't see that now as his character is. Maybe if they matured him up a lot and made him more like the movie Mikey, not sure I want that either, then I could maybe see it.

I just think if he gets obsessed with her to a point of being out of control, that could be a demon at work there too. On a side thought, doesn't Renet time travel or something? Could she be the key to saving Raph?

That just leaves Leo. Will he also have a token episode too and could these tokens coincide with the vision quest episodes? If Leo does get an emotion, what would it be? You've opened up lots of ideas in my head now.

The tokens bitsy talks about sound like the seven deadly sins.

Pride
Sloth
Lust
Envy
Greed
Wrath
Gluttony

Pride being Donnie's sin because the takes pride in what he does and what he has been able to do. However I don't think this is his fatal sin.
Lust and Envy might be more of flaw with him then pride.
We know he loves April or lusts after her is the better way of describing it. Now when Donnie is just being himself as a friend to April he's more endearing but when he's trying to get April to notice him or impress her he really doesn't do himself any favors.
And Envy because Casey is human and thus able to do things and be places with April that he can't because he's a turtle . And just seeing April giving Casey any sort of affection does hit a sore spot with him because it reminds him that April has a very slim chance of choosing him. And a token or something that can enhance these flaws can destroy any hope of April being his girlfriend or Casey being his friend.

Raphs fatal sins will be wrath and envy. Wrath because of how quick he is to anger and the intensity of said anger. And being envious of Leo and maybe Donnie being "Splinter's prized students" while he is the strongest and gets little praise for it.

[Warhorse]

The tokens bitsy talks about sound like the seven deadly sins.

Pride
Sloth
Lust
Envy
Greed
Wrath
Gluttony

Pride being Donnie's sin because the takes pride in what he does and what he has been able to do. However I don't think this is his fatal sin.
Lust and Envy might be more of flaw with him then pride.
We know he loves April or lusts after her is the better way of describing it. Now when Donnie is just being himself as a friend to April he's more endearing but when he's trying to get April to notice him or impress her he really doesn't do himself any favors.
And Envy because Casey is human and thus able to do things and be places with April that he can't because he's a turtle . And just seeing April giving Casey any sort of affection does hit a sore spot with him because it reminds him that April has a very slim chance of choosing him. And a token or something that can enhance these flaws can destroy any hope of April being his girlfriend or Casey being his friend.

Raphs fatal sins will be wrath and envy. Wrath because of how quick he is to anger and the intensity of said anger. And being envious of Leo and maybe Donnie being "Splinter's prized students" while he is the strongest and gets little praise for it.

I would actually put Pride as a major sin for Raph. Whenever his pride is blown, that is when he loses his temper and strikes. And it's very hard for him to admit he is wrong about something and to say he is sorry when he is wrong. In this incarnation, I am not sensing any sort of envy with him, at all! Not in the slightest.

[jenna]

I would hope that the writers would tackle this arc in a way in which Raphael can learn a lesson and grow as a character.

If he is simply captured and brainwashed he is a victim and bears no responsibility in whatever happens.

I would be much more interested in seeing an evil character exploit Raphael's bitterness and rage, facilitating a conscious decision to act, rather than have him acting outside of his own control. That way he would have a lesson to learn, something to regret and would have to deal with the consequences of his actions.

I don't for a minute think that Raphael would voluntarily align himself with the Shredder, but I would be interested in seeing a plot where he is pushed so far by circumstances (grief over Splinter?) that he responds to it really badly.

In any Raphael-centric arc I really want to see him confront his demons. He can only confront them if he is at first destroyed / corrupted by them. I want to see him pushed to the edge, fall off the precipice, and then put the broken pieces together and develop as a character as a result.

[victory_angel]

They seem to building up Raph's relationships with his brothers of and on through out the series.

Mikey calms Raph's anger while Leo either encourages it or blows it back. Recently they have has some subtle growth between Raph and Donnie. Such as when that guilty look that is on Raph's face when April tells him that Donnie had spent the whole night trying to revive him.
http://screencapped.net/animation/tmnt/albums/userpics/10002/normal_T
MNT3_01_1183.jpg

Or the way that Raph was trying to cheer Donnie up by suggesting they do a little forest training.
http://screencapped.net/animation/tmnt/albums/userpics/10002/normal_TMNT3_02_0177.jpg

We know from the Vision Quests
that Raph is Fire, Leo is Wind, Mikey is Forest, and Donnie is Mountain.

Wind can fan flames or blow them back. Sometimes it carries fire to spread it further.

The forest can be damaged by fire, but the fire nourishes the forest enabling it to grow back stronger and better then before.

Mountains can block fire as well as contain fire. However fire can also destroy the mountain completely or build it anew.

So perhaps Donnie is being built as the one who will bring Raph back to himself. But he will be severely injured when Mount St. Raphy erupts, or he will be injured when he's containing the blaze.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No no no. That plot is extremely offensive. Donnie turning dark just because a girl rejects him. That plot just serves to subliminally tell girls/males that if they reject someone then the person would turn evil and do them harm. Basically herding them into unwanted relationships. You're basically supporting the whole "Girl, if you reject a guy you will die" mentality. Just a poor taste to begin with.

I dunno about you. But shizz like this can be bad for the next generation to get stuck in their head.

A story needs to have a meaning. The Donnie Darko shizz is poor taste and has no reason other then to explore your fantasies. lol Donnie Darko.

I have no clue what they have for this Dark Raph plot. But I know the reason and moral of the story is gonna be about overcoming corruption. There will be no poor tasting subliminal message such as the one present in the whole Dark donnie. Basically reminding me of Twilight, the whole point of the story is to tell girls that their life has no meaning if they don't have a boyfriend.



This is simply not true. The idea of rejected suitors going bad is NOT new, nor is it restricted to the likes of Twilight, either. The idea of the jilted would-be lover turning against the object of affection has been around for centuries- Greek mythology did it, Gaston Leroux did it with Phantom of the Opera, and it was even done with Bride of Frankenstein. And that's just for starters. It's not about telling girls that they can't reject someone they don't love or who is already clearly unstable just because "they might hurt you if you do", it's about how obsession can take over a person and cause them to do things that are utterly evil, or that they end up regretting.

A lot of the Greek tragedies are exactly like that. Like the story od Hermaphrodite- he wanted a nymph so badly he prayed to Aphrodite to allow him to be with her forever- even though she wanted nothing to do with him. As punishment for his hubris, the goddess made him PART of her, so that he became half male, half female. She made his wish literal. And there are many others similar to that. There have been obsessed lovers in fiction for as long as people have been telling stories.

So it's not this simple, trite (and inaccurate) message you believe. Twilight was bad because the choices Bella was given were only between two guys, neither of whom was really worthy. The story neglected a third choice completely- to be a strong, independent woman who didn't need either one! It was the character herself that was a weak, needy DID trope, not any fault of the situation, or of the female gender in general. She was badly written, as were most of the characters. That's why that story came off as making girls seem weak and unable to stand on their own without a man to take care of them.

[Luckyday]

But the idea of Donatello doing that to go against his entire family over a girl just doesn't make sense and is just borderline stupid. http://i.imgur.com/dWgs2TC.gif

[snake]

But the idea of Donatello doing that to go against his entire family over a girl just doesn't make sense and is just borderline stupid. http://i.imgur.com/dWgs2TC.gif

Not really. Donatello seems like the one who would get obsessed with something and never leave it.

[IndigoErth]

Obsessed, but not much reason to be against his family over it. Prob have to be brainwashed to believe his family caused it not to happen. But if it was Dark Donnie I'd hope it would be based on deeper reasons.

[Bitsy83]

This is simply not true. The idea of rejected suitors going bad is NOT new, nor is it restricted to the likes of Twilight, either. The idea of the jilted would-be lover turning against the object of affection has been around for centuries- Greek mythology did it, Gaston Leroux did it with Phantom of the Opera, and it was even done with Bride of Frankenstein. And that's just for starters. It's not about telling girls that they can't reject someone they don't love or who is already clearly unstable just because "they might hurt you if you do", it's about how obsession can take over a person and cause them to do things that are utterly evil, or that they end up regretting.

A lot of the Greek tragedies are exactly like that. Like the story od Hermaphrodite- he wanted a nymph so badly he prayed to Aphrodite to allow him to be with her forever- even though she wanted nothing to do with him. As punishment for his hubris, the goddess made him PART of her, so that he became half male, half female. She made his wish literal. And there are many others similar to that. There have been obsessed lovers in fiction for as long as people have been telling stories.

So it's not this simple, trite (and inaccurate) message you believe. Twilight was bad because the choices Bella was given were only between two guys, neither of whom was really worthy. The story neglected a third choice completely- to be a strong, independent woman who didn't need either one! It was the character herself that was a weak, needy DID trope, not any fault of the situation, or of the female gender in general. She was badly written, as were most of the characters. That's why that story came off as making girls seem weak and unable to stand on their own without a man to take care of them.

WHEW! Took me forever to find this thread. Sorry, I meant to reply to it sooner.

But, yes, this was the point I was trying to make. Thank you, Duckie. Werecat is right; it's a horrible message for someone to act all offended because a girl rejects them. THAT'S the point!!! A person should never make someone else feel like affection is owed to them.

When the show first aired and Donnie was revealed to have a crush on April, then later we find out the one of the reasons Shredder and Splinter became (personal) enemies was because of Tang Shen, my thoughts immediately went to April and Donnie and Casey (whom I knew they would eventually bring in).

I started having these ideas that Donnie assumes that since him and April have been through so much together and that he's saved her plenty of times, he'd have a fair shot of being with April. Remember guys; Donnie's a teenage kid. Hormones and, in his case, animal instincts are sort of giving him mixed signals at this point. Plus, he's a logical thinker. Good guys get good girls. :roll: Just how things work, right?

(keep in mind. Logical thinker; teenage boy)

Then Casey shows up and April starts to enjoy his company. In the beginning of season 2, it sort of started out this way. Casey was that punk kid with a heart of gold that only April could sense and Donnie was getting jealous. Then the Turtles meet Casey and they all think he's ok, but of course Donnie is just letting the "April likes him" factor block him from being friends with the guy, despite the fact that he's pretty cool. Of course, the way the writers are making Casey out to be, he's more of a jerk than a cool guy with an attitude, so it's hard to really "root" for him like we have in the past.

Now, you all would think this is a pretty stupid reason for Donnie to want to join the Foot, right? Well, for me it'd be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's been brought to our attention that Donnie is seen as one of the weaker members of the group. He's part of the "B Team/A- Team", the others are always stressing him out on missions, Raph not only calls him a nerd, but teases him about April (sometimes), and Splinter issued him a bo/nagiata instead of a sword or sai. Even Mikey's weapon(s) are more impressive than his bo staff. I have this head cannon that growing up, Donnie secretly felt that Splinter never had a lot of faith in him to be a proper ninja. That because he was "nerdy" he wasn't cut out for it, which we all know isn't true. In fact, there are times when Splinter feels that Donnie doesn't need a more advanced weapon to win the day. To quote 2k3 Donnie, sometimes it's the simplest tool that fixes the biggest problems.

But since Donnie's emotions can cloud his thinking, he doesn't immediately think that. We've all had those moments growing up where we think our parents are belittling us or whatever when really they're just doing what they think is best. Not only that, but Donnie starts to think how unfair it is how he and his brothers are constantly risking their lives to save the city, only to have to hide in the sewers for fear of being rejected or attacked by society while kids like Casey can just be a jerk and only get a slap on the wrists for it.

And if they went with April rejecting him and choosing Casey story to help parallel the Tang Shen love story, I could see Donnie just breaking down and giving up on the whole thing. Like April was his lifeline to making the right choices and it was severed. I wouldn't necessarily see him joining the Foot as a "vengeance" sort of thing, but just as a "I'll show them how weak I am" sort of thing. For all we know, maybe he would join the Foot for other reasons...

[Warhorse]

What does all this Donnie talk have to do with Raph turning dark?

[victory_angel]

WHEW! Took me forever to find this thread. Sorry, I meant to reply to it sooner.

But, yes, this was the point I was trying to make. Thank you, Duckie. Werecat is right; it's a horrible message for someone to act all offended because a girl rejects them. THAT'S the point!!! A person should never make someone else feel like affection is owed to them.

When the show first aired and Donnie was revealed to have a crush on April, then later we find out the one of the reasons Shredder and Splinter became (personal) enemies was because of Tang Shen, my thoughts immediately went to April and Donnie and Casey (whom I knew they would eventually bring in).

I started having these ideas that Donnie assumes that since him and April have been through so much together and that he's saved her plenty of times, he'd have a fair shot of being with April. Remember guys; Donnie's a teenage kid. Hormones and, in his case, animal instincts are sort of giving him mixed signals at this point. Plus, he's a logical thinker. Good guys get good girls. :roll: Just how things work, right?

(keep in mind. Logical thinker; teenage boy)

Then Casey shows up and April starts to enjoy his company. In the beginning of season 2, it sort of started out this way. Casey was that punk kid with a heart of gold that only April could sense and Donnie was getting jealous. Then the Turtles meet Casey and they all think he's ok, but of course Donnie is just letting the "April likes him" factor block him from being friends with the guy, despite the fact that he's pretty cool. Of course, the way the writers are making Casey out to be, he's more of a jerk than a cool guy with an attitude, so it's hard to really "root" for him like we have in the past.

Now, you all would think this is a pretty stupid reason for Donnie to want to join the Foot, right? Well, for me it'd be the straw that breaks the camel's back. It's been brought to our attention that Donnie is seen as one of the weaker members of the group. He's part of the "B Team/A- Team", the others are always stressing him out on missions, Raph not only calls him a nerd, but teases him about April (sometimes), and Splinter issued him a bo/nagiata instead of a sword or sai. Even Mikey's weapon(s) are more impressive than his bo staff. I have this head cannon that growing up, Donnie secretly felt that Splinter never had a lot of faith in him to be a proper ninja. That because he was "nerdy" he wasn't cut out for it, which we all know isn't true. In fact, there are times when Splinter feels that Donnie doesn't need a more advanced weapon to win the day. To quote 2k3 Donnie, sometimes it's the simplest tool that fixes the biggest problems.

But since Donnie's emotions can cloud his thinking, he doesn't immediately think that. We've all had those moments growing up where we think our parents are belittling us or whatever when really they're just doing what they think is best. Not only that, but Donnie starts to think how unfair it is how he and his brothers are constantly risking their lives to save the city, only to have to hide in the sewers for fear of being rejected or attacked by society while kids like Casey can just be a jerk and only get a slap on the wrists for it.

And if they went with April rejecting him and choosing Casey story to help parallel the Tang Shen love story, I could see Donnie just breaking down and giving up on the whole thing. Like April was his lifeline to making the right choices and it was severed. I wouldn't necessarily see him joining the Foot as a "vengeance" sort of thing, but just as a "I'll show them how weak I am" sort of thing. For all we know, maybe he would join the Foot for other reasons...

Interesting Point of View Bitsy.

However I never personaly got the point of view that Donnie feels Splinter is belittling him or holds little to no faith in him as a ninja.

For example, Splinter has stated that it is the weapon that chooses the weilder in this series. Now Donnie is admitedly is not the strongest fighter. In the interactive comic book on Nick.com there is a flash back moment where the Turtles are going through an Obstical course.

One of the obsticals is a wall climb which all the brothers except Donnie succeed in climbing. Donnie gets frustrated about it and Splinter quiet calmly asks him if it was the obstical that was truely causing him frustration. And Donne unabashedly says "No, I guess not Sensei. It just feels no matter how hard I train, I just can't keep up with my brothers."

At this Splinter answers Donnie's frustration with an anicdotial question of "If a tree falls into a stream does it stop the water from flowing?"

Donnie automatically answers that no the water doesn't stop flowing but rather makes a new path by flowing around the tree. Splinter agrees with the answer by pointing out Donnie is very gifted intelectually but he at times he over thinks a situation. The challenge was to get to the top of the wall, but nothing was said about actually climbing it.

So it's feels more like Donnie believes he should be the same sort of warrior as the rest of his brothers. However he is a different kind of warrior in comparison to his brothers which is why he's underestimated by both his brothers and enemies and viewed as a weaker fighter.

Splinter is aware of this difference, as the anicdote he gives does suggest that Donnie flows a different way then his brothers. But treats the situation as a bridge Donnie needs to discover and cross on his own.

I believe that the difference is that Donnie is a pacifistic warrior. Donnie has probably suspected this but hasn't accepted it for fear it would prove his Brothers right about him a weak fighter and by that result think less of him. But in reality it's more that he's a weak fighter because he's trying to prove his worth by trying to be something he's not.

During a weapon origin I can see a situation like April's weapon origin where Donnie tries out several weapons that look interesting to him, only to fail at them. But then Splinter says "I think you maybe you are considering the wrong sort of weapons." And that's when he offers the Bo Staff. Donnie isn't impressed with it or doesn't think that it's meant to be his. But tries it out anyway at Splinter's insistance and sure enough that is the weapon that chooses him.

In metalhead we are given the impression that the Bo Staff wasn't Donnie's first choice as far as weapons. As we hear him say "I hate this thing" and even "How am I supposed to fight Alien Technology with a stupid stick?"

Also in metalhead there is a moment where Donnie is essentually trapped into admitting he is a pacifist and that is the moment where he brings out Metalhead.

During Donnie's talk about his reverse engineered robot, Raph says
"I get it. It's a weapon for wimps too scared to fight." (This is a weapon for cowards.)
And Donnie responds by saying "It's a weapon for wimps too smart to fight." (No, this is a weapon for Pacifists) And then suddenly realizes what he just said.

Yes Donnie is fairly violent later on when he was using metalhead to trash the Kraang. But he had said he was turning to combat into a video game. When we play video games majority of the time we know it's not real so we don't equate violence and destruction as something to do with real life. It's only when he lost the electric signal that the game became real.

With the current situation, April has pretty much told Donnie she loves him with her "You're my mutant." comment.

But with Casey she's been largely dropping hits that say "I like you, but your just a friend to me." Such as when she's asking "who said this is a date?" when they are togeather.

Even recently they have been playing up the Casey is a jerk angle such as that moment they are watching Crognard in "Within the Woods." There is that one moment where Donnie is attemting to hand April a piece of pizza something or other or whatever they were eating. And Casey deliberately climbs over the couch and plops himself between them much to Donnie's dislike. And he even smuggly smirks at Donnie because of it. ]

Also later in the episode Casey points out that April has been cold around him since they left New York. And April pretty much says "I'm sorry but there is a lot more we should be worrying about besides your desire to get laid."

I think with the next three episodes particularly the Dream Beavers and the Speed Demon episode, Casey will be starting to notice that April has feelings for Donnie.

[victory_angel]

What does all this Donnie talk have to do with Raph turning dark?

I think it's people considering why it's Raph whose turning Dark vrs. the other Turtles. And what reasons would this Donatello to turn dark.

But it's likely Donnie is being built up as the one who either turns Raph dark or he is being built up to pull Raph out of his being dark.

[Warhorse]

I think it's people considering why it's Raph whose turning Dark vrs. the other Turtles. And what reasons would this Donatello to turn dark.

But it's likely Donnie is being built up as the one who either turns Raph dark or he is being built up to pull Raph out of his being dark.

Why? Don't you think Donnie has hogged up enough of the spotlight in this series? Time to let the other three shine for a while.

I like the idea that Raph is just attacked by the latest thing Shredder gets his hands on, and that is what turns Raph dark. Nothing what his brothers or Splinter have done, and I see Mikey being the one to pull him out of it, since he seems closest to Mikey than anyone else.

[Ashwolf]

Why? Don't you think Donnie has hogged up enough of the spotlight in this series? Time to let the other three shine for a while.

I like the idea that Raph is just attacked by the latest thing Shredder gets his hands on, and that is what turns Raph dark. Nothing what his brothers or Splinter have done, and I see Mikey being the one to pull him out of it, since he seems closest to Mikey than anyone else.

after reading that, I instantly thought of the sh'okanbo ooze stuff, which would be a really interesting twist

[Bitsy83]

after reading that, I instantly thought of the sh'okanbo ooze stuff, which would be a really interesting twist

The What now?

[Ashwolf]

The What now?

during some of the FF season, sh'okanbo's kind infected other alien races w/ a chemical that mutated them on the cellular level and those that were infected also spread it around through the gunk, not to mention, the infected left traces behind wherever they walked or whatever they touched...... so I was thinking it would be cool if nick did something similiar

[victory_angel]

I mentioned something to that extent when I suggested a good genes type plot.

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1375360&postcount=44

[aliena]

Why? Don't you think Donnie has hogged up enough of the spotlight in this series? Time to let the other three shine for a while.

I like the idea that Raph is just attacked by the latest thing Shredder gets his hands on, and that is what turns Raph dark. Nothing what his brothers or Splinter have done, and I see Mikey being the one to pull him out of it, since he seems closest to Mikey than anyone else.


I agree Warhorse. I am always thinking way way too big for these episodes and then it's so much more simplistic when it gets here. I have to remember this is supposed to be a kids show, but I want so much more.

Anyway, I think your idea will be dead on. Shredder will use this new device to zap Raph and turn him into his Zombie fighter where he will go after his brothers without hesitation. He will probably wear some new cool dark outfit, but it will be Mikey most likely who will snap him out of it, probably by bonking him on the head with his chuks or something simple. An interesting idea would be if Slash brought him out of it, but it's more emotional if it's one of his brothers.

I actually thought early on that Mikey was taken over by the Kraang and made into a fighting machine when Mikey goes into Dimension X. I was so excited by the idea of a bad Mikey, because I feel he's got it inside him to be bad if he wanted, but alas, it was not to be.

[PangolinFeets]

I agree Warhorse. I am always thinking way way too big for these episodes and then it's so much more simplistic when it gets here. I have to remember this is supposed to be a kids show, but I want so much more.

Anyway, I think your idea will be dead on. Shredder will use this new device to zap Raph and turn him into his Zombie fighter where he will go after his brothers without hesitation. He will probably wear some new cool dark outfit, but it will be Mikey most likely who will snap him out of it, probably by bonking him on the head with his chuks or something simple. An interesting idea would be if Slash brought him out of it, but it's more emotional if it's one of his brothers.

I actually thought early on that Mikey was taken over by the Kraang and made into a fighting machine when Mikey goes into Dimension X. I was so excited by the idea of a bad Mikey, because I feel he's got it inside him to be bad if he wanted, but alas, it was not to be.

One of the cooler elements to Dark Leo was that he wasn't a mind-controlled zombie slave to Shredder. His memories were changed so that he viewed Shredder as his master and Splinter as his enemy. He made conscious choices to attack his family (even if the reasoning behind those choices stemmed from deep psychological manipulation). It'd be really cool if they kept that aspect instead of just going with the 'YES MASTER EXTERMINATE TURTLES.' route.

[Luckyday]

One of the cooler elements to Dark Leo was that he wasn't a mind-controlled zombie slave to Shredder. His memories were changed so that he viewed Shredder as his master and Splinter as his enemy. He made conscious choices to attack his family (even if the reasoning behind those choices stemmed from deep psychological manipulation). It'd be really cool if they kept that aspect instead of just going with the 'YES MASTER EXTERMINATE TURTLES.' route.

Or better yet he would plant the seeds of doubt and mistrust, and wait it grow completely fester.

Shredder is a ninja and are all about manipulation.

[aliena]

One of the cooler elements to Dark Leo was that he wasn't a mind-controlled zombie slave to Shredder. His memories were changed so that he viewed Shredder as his master and Splinter as his enemy. He made conscious choices to attack his family (even if the reasoning behind those choices stemmed from deep psychological manipulation). It'd be really cool if they kept that aspect instead of just going with the 'YES MASTER EXTERMINATE TURTLES.' route.

Oh, that would be very cool. I hope they do some of that instead of just Zombie slave things since he could still retain some of that doubt and anger when he is recovering. I must get that Dark Leo comic story.

[jenna]

Or better yet he would plant the seeds of doubt and mistrust, and wait it grow completely fester.

Shredder is a ninja and are all about manipulation.

Yes. A thousand times, yes. I would love to see that. The cynic in me thinks that approach may be a tad too dark for Nick, but what you've said here is exactly what I want to see.

[victory_angel]

I feel Donnie is going to have a bigish role in Raph's darker personality. Whether this will be Donnie being seriously injured by Raph as a test of loyalty to the Shredder, or Donnie is the ultimately is the one who helps bring Raph back to himself or a bit of both is still up in the air.

But there has been a bit of forshadowing that there is going to be an event between them.

First off there is very little interaction between the two of them. In fact it's one of the least developed sibling pairs in the show.

Raph can be rough with Donnie and at times can be a full on bully. There is no explination as to why this is the case aside from the fact they are both essentually polar opposites. Raph's beef with Leo is that there is implied insecruities. Raph seems to feel like he is always in Leo's shadow. Leo is the skilled one, the perfect one, the one that always has Splinter's approval. And Raph appears to feel that if he doesn't show agression then his efforts won't be noticed. While we are currently at the Farm House, Raph feels out of place there. But he also doesn't constantly feel like he needs to gain his Sensei's approval since Splinter isn't there. He has taken it upon himself to make sure Leo is in fighting shape, and also encurage his younger brothers in maintaining their fighting techniques

Raph's relationship with Mikey is very sibling like. He will call Mikey out on his childishness and also asserts dominance over his younger brother. But he is also is very protective of Mikey as well. Even to the point of stating that he is the only one who has the rite to hit Mikey.

But his issues with Donnie aren't clear. He is protective of Donnie as much as he is protective of all of his brothers. But there are some comments where it sounds like may as well have just called Donnie a useless ninja to brothers face. My headcannon is that Raph picks on Donatello as a misguided attempt at trying to get the purple masked Turtle an edge in which to improve himself.

Some in show hints that foreshadow a serious event between Raph and Donnie in the Dark Turtle Plot.

In both the Gantlet and Legend of the Kuro kabuto, there is a moment where the Shredder is going to deliver Donnie a fatal blow. Raph jumps in to deflect it both times.

In Wrath of Tiger Claw, there is a moment where the mutant tiger has pinned Donnie down and attempts to stab him with one of Raph's sai.

In Within the Woods when Raph is turned into a plant, Donnie is horrified by seeing his brother's potental death (being turned into a plant) and even crys our Raph's name in anguish. Later when April informs Raph that Donnie was up all night trying to save him, Raph has this curiously shamefaced look.

http://screencapped.net/animation/tmnt/displayimage.php?pid=131900&fullsize=1

The Dark Raph plot is going to occur after the Spirit Quest more then likely. Raph's element is fire and Donnie's element is mountain. Of them, Donnie's element is the one that is most likely to be a counter to Raph's because mountains can block fire, mountains can also contain fire in the case of volcano's, and in that same reguard they can be destroyed by fire. But mountains can also be shaped and reformed by fire as well.

So a plausable scenario would be Donnie has retromutagen prepared for Karai. Raph forcably takes the Retromutagen and hurts his brother so that the rest of his family and friends will be forced to get Donnie somewhere he could recover while Raph takes the Retromutagen to the Shredder. This leaves Donnie out of commission in the battle. So when Raph comes back to to his family he asks to see Donnie, and here he breaks down and starts saying that he's sorry for what he has done, and how he doesn't deserve his family's forgiveness for it.

Anther scenario. Donnie approches Raph tries to convince him to come back to himself. Raph attacks his brother as he would an enemy and seriously wounds Donnie. But Donnie's actions in this moment or something he says helps brings Raph back and he realizes what he has just done.

[Mellie]

I really love reading your theories :)

I'm sort of torn because I'd love for Donnie and Raph to interact more and bond at some level, but at the same time (in my grumpy, possibly biased opinion :D) I am SO tired of the huge focus on Donnie in 2012.


Someone mentioned that the chip in Raph's shell would be explained this season. If there's mind control involved in 'Dark Raph', maybe the story behind it could bring him back? Maybe he got it while saving this brothers.


Hiatus be gone! :x

[Warhorse]

I feel Donnie is going to have a bigish role in Raph's darker personality. Whether this will be Donnie being seriously injured by Raph as a test of loyalty to the Shredder, or Donnie is the ultimately is the one who helps bring Raph back to himself or a bit of both is still up in the air.

But there has been a bit of forshadowing that there is going to be an event between them.

First off there is very little interaction between the two of them. In fact it's one of the least developed sibling pairs in the show.

Raph can be rough with Donnie and at times can be a full on bully. There is no explination as to why this is the case aside from the fact they are both essentually polar opposites. Raph's beef with Leo is that there is implied insecruities. Raph seems to feel like he is always in Leo's shadow. Leo is the skilled one, the perfect one, the one that always has Splinter's approval. And Raph appears to feel that if he doesn't show agression then his efforts won't be noticed. While we are currently at the Farm House, Raph feels out of place there. But he also doesn't constantly feel like he needs to gain his Sensei's approval since Splinter isn't there. He has taken it upon himself to make sure Leo is in fighting shape, and also encurage his younger brothers in maintaining their fighting techniques

Raph's relationship with Mikey is very sibling like. He will call Mikey out on his childishness and also asserts dominance over his younger brother. But he is also is very protective of Mikey as well. Even to the point of stating that he is the only one who has the rite to hit Mikey.

But his issues with Donnie aren't clear. He is protective of Donnie as much as he is protective of all of his brothers. But there are some comments where it sounds like may as well have just called Donnie a useless ninja to brothers face. My headcannon is that Raph picks on Donatello as a misguided attempt at trying to get the purple masked Turtle an edge in which to improve himself.

Some in show hints that foreshadow a serious event between Raph and Donnie in the Dark Turtle Plot.

In both the Gantlet and Legend of the Kuro kabuto, there is a moment where the Shredder is going to deliver Donnie a fatal blow. Raph jumps in to deflect it both times.

In Wrath of Tiger Claw, there is a moment where the mutant tiger has pinned Donnie down and attempts to stab him with one of Raph's sai.

In Within the Woods when Raph is turned into a plant, Donnie is horrified by seeing his brother's potental death (being turned into a plant) and even crys our Raph's name in anguish. Later when April informs Raph that Donnie was up all night trying to save him, Raph has this curiously shamefaced look.

http://screencapped.net/animation/tmnt/displayimage.php?pid=131900&fullsize=1

The Dark Raph plot is going to occur after the Spirit Quest more then likely. Raph's element is fire and Donnie's element is mountain. Of them, Donnie's element is the one that is most likely to be a counter to Raph's because mountains can block fire, mountains can also contain fire in the case of volcano's, and in that same reguard they can be destroyed by fire. But mountains can also be shaped and reformed by fire as well.

So a plausable scenario would be Donnie has retromutagen prepared for Karai. Raph forcably takes the Retromutagen and hurts his brother so that the rest of his family and friends will be forced to get Donnie somewhere he could recover while Raph takes the Retromutagen to the Shredder. This leaves Donnie out of commission in the battle. So when Raph comes back to to his family he asks to see Donnie, and here he breaks down and starts saying that he's sorry for what he has done, and how he doesn't deserve his family's forgiveness for it.

Anther scenario. Donnie approches Raph tries to convince him to come back to himself. Raph attacks his brother as he would an enemy and seriously wounds Donnie. But Donnie's actions in this moment or something he says helps brings Raph back and he realizes what he has just done.

I hope not. I'm sick of Donnie being part of every one of the stories. I'd rather it be anyone but Donnie to be honest.

[ssjup81]

I hope not. I'm sick of Donnie being part of every one of the stories. I'd rather it be anyone but Donnie to be honest.He isn't. Seriously, Donnie really isn't part if every plot. Yes, for the plots that count (Kraang) of course he'll be mainly connected to it because he's the tech and science guy. Leo will always have main plots tossed at him because he's the leader. Why do people act like this is new anyway? From my perspective it seems to have always been that way.

That aside, I wouldn't mind something close to this because Raph and Donnie haven't been shown bonding which is weird. You even said yourself that you wanted to see some brotherly moments or a change from Leo/Donnie Raph/Mikey. Make up your mind.

At least victory_angel's theory is well thought out and plausible. Should at least give her that much credit.

Personally, though, I'm hoping for it to be a group effort to get Raph back, but if say Mikey or Leo or Donnie or Casey or April or Splinter's contribution is the clencher in doing so, no problem.

It's like in Digimon Adventure when Sora's character ended up in thd dark world because of how upset she was and how depressed and despaired she became. Jou and Yamato were there to bring her back, trying to reach her, to get her out of that state, the darkness seeping out around her, practically trapping her. They couldn't even move her and her way of talking was becoming more negative and darker. Even though both boys gave words of encouragement to their friend, Yamato was the one who could bring her back completely with his words. It was a group effort, but Yamato's words were the clencher and the darkness left her, her eyes no longer lifeless, and the dark tunnel and cave that those feelings formed vanished.

I find that this is as a likely scenario as well. Everyone tries, but someone's specific words will be the main thing to bring him back...if it plays out that way anyway.

[Warhorse]

He isn't. Seriously, Donnie really isn't part if every plot. Yes, for the plots that count (Kraang) of course he'll be mainly connected to it because he's the tech and science guy. Leo will always have main plots tossed at him because he's the leader. Why do people act like this is new anyway? From my perspective it seems to have always been that way.

That aside, I wouldn't mind something close to this because Raph and Donnie haven't been shown bonding which is weird. You even said yourself that you wanted to see some brotherly moments or a change from Leo/Donnie Raph/Mikey. Make up your mind.

At least victory_angel's theory is well thought out and plausible. Should at least give her that much credit.

Personally, though, I'm hoping for it to be a group effort to get Raph back, but if say Mikey or Leo or Donnie or Casey or April or Splinter's contribution is the clencher in doing so, no problem.

It's like in Digimon Adventure when Sora's character ended up in thd dark world because of how upset she was and how depressed and despaired she became. Jou and Yamato were there to bring her back, trying to reach her, to get her out of that state, the darkness seeping out around her, practically trapping her. They couldn't even move her and her way of talking was becoming more negative and darker. Even though both boys gave words of encouragement to their friend, Yamato was the one who could bring her back completely with his words. It was a group effort, but Yamato's words were the clencher and the darkness left her, her eyes no longer lifeless, and the dark tunnel and cave that those feelings formed vanished.

I find that this is as a likely scenario as well. Everyone tries, but someone's specific words will be the main thing to bring him back...if it plays out that way anyway.


I do want to see some Donnie and Raph bonding moments, but for something like this, I would prefer it be either Mikey or Leo that are part of the story. Leo's rival could be the thing that sparks the dark Raph, and Mikey's closeness to Raph could be what brings him back. Or perhaps a team effort, but I'm not going to count on that the way things have been panning out as of late.

[BubblyShell22]

I agree that I'd rather it be Leo, Mikey, or even Splinter who brings Raph back or maybe Karai, too. I do want to see more Raph/Donnie bonding, but I just think that either of the characters I mentioned would be more suited to bringing Raph back.

[PangolinFeets]

I have to agree here. I'm thinking Mikey. I still have my money on Donnie getting wrecked by Raph early on to take the 'Donnie ex Machina' out of the equation.

[BubblyShell22]

I could see Raph either hurting Donnie or possibly Leo.

[Vicky82]

I feel Mikey is going to be the main focus in the dark Raph story from and maybe getting seriously hurt in the process.

I think The Invasion is foreshadowing it as it was Mikey that calmed Raph down when his anger took over him. You could see Raph neally hit Mikey but Mikey timed it just right when he jumped in to hug Raph without getting hit.

Also there has been a lot of interaction between Raph and Mikey, which could be important to Raph turning dark and Mikey will do anything to get his brother back. In Within The Woods, you could see Mikey was angry at Creep for turning Raph into a plant.

With this Spirit Quest story coming out and I expect there be something important and have some foreshadowing for the Dark Raph story. Also Mikey is wood, Raph is fire, Fire burns wood which is another indicacton that Raph could hurt Mikey.

The Invasion was emotional in parts and I have a feeling that season 3 final is probably going to be 10 times more emotional.

Could you imagine how other people could be feeling after seeing a badly injured Mikey at the end of season 3, I know I will be really sad :cry:

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah and considering Mikey hasn't been seriously injured in the series yet, that would be very dramatic and sad.

[victory_angel]

Yeah and considering Mikey hasn't been seriously injured in the series yet, that would be very dramatic and sad.

Mikey was seriously injured in Wrath of Tiger Claw, he's shown recovering from his injuries in Pizza Face.

[ShelleyQuick]

Mikey was seriously injured in Wrath of Tiger Claw, he's shown recovering from his injuries in Pizza Face.

He was also seriously injured in "New Girl In Town" and "Slash and Destroy"

I never realized he was recovering in "Pizza Face", no wonder he had such a wicked, weird dream. At least I'm hoping that it was a dream:teek:

[BubblyShell22]

Okay, that's true, but he's healed fast from those. I'm talking about an injury like with what happened with Leo where it would take him some time to recover.

[Meliwen]

While I hope there are some great scenes and individual focus for each of the brothers when Raph goes dark, I hope Mikey plays the biggest part in bringing Raph back. Leo and Donnie both have ongoing character arcs and ongoing conflicts specifically for them, which is something Raph and Mikey lack. Raph had something with Slash, but that ended way too quickly for my tastes, and Mikey just seems limited to one episode long stories. Since Raph will be getting this dark arc, which I hope lasts for a decent amount of time, then I think Mikey would benefit the most from some spotlight. Perhaps he can showcase more of his compassion, like what he showed when they met Leatherhead. Also I'm a bit biased for some Raph and Mikey brotherly bonding. That stuff's adorable.

Like the others have said, that one scene where Mikey calmed Raph down from his rage induced by the Shredder could possibly be foreshadowing, and I hope it is. I would also love it if the dark Raph arc lasts for a few episodes and ends as the season finale, or as part of the finale.

Also my first post! Hello Technodrome! :D

[ssjup81]

While I hope there are some great scenes and individual focus for each of the brothers when Raph goes dark, I hope Mikey plays the biggest part in bringing Raph back. Leo and Donnie both have ongoing character arcs and ongoing conflicts specifically for them, which is something Raph and Mikey lack. Raph had something with Slash, but that ended way too quickly for my tastes, and Mikey just seems limited to one episode long stories. Since Raph will be getting this dark arc, which I hope lasts for a decent amount of time, then I think Mikey would benefit the most from some spotlight. Perhaps he can showcase more of his compassion, like what he showed when they met Leatherhead. Also I'm a bit biased for some Raph and Mikey brotherly bonding. That stuff's adorable.

Like the others have said, that one scene where Mikey calmed Raph down from his rage induced by the Shredder could possibly be foreshadowing, and I hope it is. I would also love it if the dark Raph arc lasts for a few episodes and ends as the season finale, or as part of the finale.

Also my first post! Hello Technodrome! :DWelcome! Hope you enjoy it here.

That aside, I think the main reason we didn't get more of Slash is because Corey Feldman voices him. I wonder if they would've had someone else voice him if he would've been around more. It's like how out of the villains, we see Stockman the least because of his voice actor.

Anywho, I like the idea of everyone trying to get him back, but one of them fully getting him out, but I do feel that the most likely is Mikey or Leo out of the brothers based on their relationships. Donnie, not so much, unless it plays out the way victory_angel theorized.

[Warhorse]

I'm wondering if when this episode/arc shows, if this is going to be when we learn how Raph got the cracks on his shell and plastron.

[BubblyShell22]

I was thinking either this arc or during his Spirit Quest.

[Toadtrooper]

I'm not looking forward to a "Dark Raph" at all. It's not character development. And when you have a character that's better as a villain than a hero, he was a lousy hero to begin with.

It's pretty much Hawkeye in the Avengers movie.

"We don't know what to do with this guy. He's kind of one-dimensional."
"Well, let's make him evil for most of the movie. Then push him into the background and have him shoot stuff so he looks like he's being helpful."
"Well, what if we need to make him interesting again?"
"We can't make him evil again, so we'll have him captured or killed."
"Can't we just write him more interestingly?"
"..."
*heavy laughter ensues*

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

And when you have a character that's better as a villain than a hero, he was a lousy hero to begin with.


Well...to be honest that probably best describes Raph in this new show, lol.

[PangolinFeets]

I'm not looking forward to a "Dark Raph" at all. It's not character development. And when you have a character that's better as a villain than a hero, he was a lousy hero to begin with.

It's pretty much Hawkeye in the Avengers movie.

"We don't know what to do with this guy. He's kind of one-dimensional."
"Well, let's make him evil for most of the movie. Then push him into the background and have him shoot stuff so he looks like he's being helpful."
"Well, what if we need to make him interesting again?"
"We can't make him evil again, so we'll have him captured or killed."
"Can't we just write him more interestingly?"
"..."
*heavy laughter ensues*

Hardly. And comparing it to Hawkeye in the Avengers is just silly. Loki just zaps him evil. That's not what happens in the comic arc that they're pulling from.
City Fall was an awesome arc. Leo 'going dark' went into exploration of his own insecurities. Shredder/Kitsune were able to get into his head by exploring and manipulating his worst fears and fondest memories and twisting things around in his head. An entire issue is dedicated to it and, frankly, its pretty ****ed up. And then there's a whole arc dedicated to his recovery and trying to find his place within his family again. If its done anything like it is in the comic, it will be great for Raphael.

[Luckyday]

Well...to be honest that probably best describes Raph in this new show, lol.
^ That sounds like Slash from the get go.

I find it really unsettling that the four kind of swept it under the rug that he..you know...beat them half to death? Those two especially (Donnie, Mikey) should having PTSD from just hearing his name alone. Kinda like Donnie when they were going to see Leatherhead for the second time.

[Warhorse]

^ That sounds like Slash from the get go.

I find it really unsettling that the four kind of swept it under the rug that he..you know...beat them half to death? Those two especially (Donnie, Mikey) should having PTSD from just hearing his name alone. Kinda like Donnie when they were going to see Leatherhead for the second time.

Heh, and one would think that more was brought about the ship underneath the house and the fact that April's mom may still be alive, and yet, nothing of it the next few episodes later.

[Luckyday]

Heh, and one would think that more was brought about the ship underneath the house and the fact that April's mom may still be alive, and yet, nothing of it the next few episodes later.

God this show and it's lack of continuity, or maybe "lack of" is not the right word. More like "strong indifference".

You know what the worse thing that could happen in this arc? Like the worse thing? If they pull a deus ex machina out their ass with the time travel and with Renet and reverse everything that happen so there was never a invasion in the first place or make everything revert to status quo without any explanation.
.
.
.
Because that would be so ****ing hilarious.http://i.imgur.com/Js5iCJ1.gif

[BubblyShell22]

Heh, and one would think that more was brought about the ship underneath the house and the fact that April's mom may still be alive, and yet, nothing of it the next few episodes later.

Um, they used components from the ship to power the car in "Race with the Demon." It was never swept under the rug. As for April's mom, she may come back and they may talk about it. I think April's just trying to process things now and maybe doesn't want to get her hopes up too much about it in case it isn't so.

[Warhorse]

God this show and it's lack of continuity, or maybe "lack of" is not the right word. More like "strong indifference".

You know what the worse thing that could happen in this arc? Like the worse thing? If they pull a deus ex machina out their ass with the time travel and with Renet and reverse everything that happen so there was never a invasion in the first place or make everything revert to status quo without any explanation.
.
.
.
Because that would be so ****ing hilarious.http://i.imgur.com/Js5iCJ1.gif

I already theorized that all of this that we see happening right now, is Leo still in his coma and dreaming it all.

[Luckyday]

I already theorized that all of this that we see happening right now, is Leo still in his coma and dreaming it all.

I'm kinda half joking, but I might need a drink if that happens. nervous laugh.

[Warhorse]

I'm kinda half joking, but I might need a drink if that happens. nervous laugh.

LOL! But hey, the new Star Trek and X-Men movies kind of erased the past with time warping, and the new Terminator movie coming out next year looks to do the same, so who knows, maybe Ciro is giving this kind of story telling a stab. If he is truly being pressured by the toy companies/ceo execs to bang out a certain type of TMNT quota, this would be a good way to do it, then reverse everything and get back to the story arcs after the quota is met.

[Luckyday]

LOL! But hey, the new Star Trek and X-Men movies kind of erased the past with time warping, and the new Terminator movie coming out next year looks to do the same, so who knows, maybe Ciro is giving this kind of story telling a stab. If he is truly being pressured by the toy companies/ceo execs to bang out a certain type of TMNT quota, this would be a good way to do it, then reverse everything and get back to the story arcs after the quota is met.

Well if doesn't change the fact that the invasion had happened and most of these horror episodes are just dream manifestations then...okay canon accepted.

But please, I really want see and feel the aftermath of the Invasion. If nothing gets develop and push forward then why should I be invested in the first place? It's not right man. It's just not right.

[newhire13]

God this show and it's lack of continuity, or maybe "lack of" is not the right word. More like "strong indifference".

You know what the worse thing that could happen in this arc? Like the worse thing? If they pull a deus ex machina out their ass with the time travel and with Renet and reverse everything that happen so there was never a invasion in the first place or make everything revert to status quo without any explanation.
.
.
.
Because that would be so ****ing hilarious.http://i.imgur.com/Js5iCJ1.gif

More like they have to balance story arcs with one off/filler quotas. Pretty much they have to make sure at any given time someone who has never seen the show can turn it on and not be lost. That means they have to keep things moving and service regular fans, random fans and potential new fans while answering to the higher ups and their notes about what to keep and what to drop . It is in no way as easy as people might think.

[Luckyday]

But there a difference between gentle pushing it to the background for now and then there is letting it drop off the face of the earth.

I mean just putting so much standalone in a middle arc when there was clearly unfinished business is just dumb. I'm sorry but it just dumb and it gives those episodes such underserve crap from the fans who really wish this episodes be reflect on what happen in the season finale. This show is bad at pacing with their story arcs.

You know, it seems to me that having these story arcs that start and then drop until near end of the season is a common problem in other western animated shows. Why is that?

[aliena]

Hardly. And comparing it to Hawkeye in the Avengers is just silly. Loki just zaps him evil. That's not what happens in the comic arc that they're pulling from.
City Fall was an awesome arc. Leo 'going dark' went into exploration of his own insecurities. Shredder/Kitsune were able to get into his head by exploring and manipulating his worst fears and fondest memories and twisting things around in his head. An entire issue is dedicated to it and, frankly, its pretty ****ed up. And then there's a whole arc dedicated to his recovery and trying to find his place within his family again. If its done anything like it is in the comic, it will be great for Raphael.

I hope you see this since I just finished the City Fall story arc and man, that did a number on me. I kind of wish it could be Leo this time too, but since he was already hurt once, they probably won't do it twice. As for Raph, I think it would be hard to watch him go through all that, but I can see it happening like in the comics. And since it was Raph(and Leo's mother) who brought Leo back, it will most likely be Leo who brings Raph back, even though it would be cool if it were to be Mikey. I do want to see the Leo/Dark Raph fight though.