Celebrity culture and worship

[Davetello]

What are your views on this? Personally, I find it deeply disturbing.

In the internet era there seems to be a proliferation in this sort of thing. You get lots of people putting famous individuals on a pedestal and defending them as if they're a relative, rather than a stranger who doesn't know you exist.

This sort of thing has been going on forever, but here in the UK it really ramped up with the funeral of Princess Diana...normal people who didn't know her from Adam crying on the street, "the people's Princess" etc. Even aged 15 I knew it was all nonsense. People seem to buy into the angelic images portrayed in the media.

Now of course we have people like David Beckham and myriad talentless pop stars and other sports stars, film-makers etc. These people are treated like demi-gods for no discernible reason. You have people defending them vociferously on the internet, and it's very disconcerting. Their fans talking about them as if they know them personally, as if they spend time with them every day. Most of these people probably wouldn't put half that effort into defending their own siblings or parents and they don't realise that they're just the gullible suckers in a macro money-making machine.

Then one of my pet hates about all of this - the glorification of famous people because of their philanthropy/charity work. You have these multi-millionaires giving a tiny proportion of their money to a charity and most of the time it's simply for the PR. There are rare cases where they care, but most of the time it's publicised. There are regular people who devote a far greater proportion of their time and income to charity, but they don't expect any congratulations for it. They'd have it no other way, because true charity is an anonymous act.

So yeah, the era of celebrity worship. What are your views?

[Jester]

Yeah it's sad, but then it can also hit you where you live. I couldn't bring myself to watch a Woody Allen or Roman Polanski film, because of the (alleged) sins they've committed....then news hits about Bill Cosby...and I'm torn. Do I defend the man who made me laugh when I watched Himself or do I add his name to the list of scumbags I can't bring myself to support because of what they (allegedly) have done.

[Leo656]

We've definitely done this before. But in brief, I pretty much feel the same.

At the end of the day, a lot of the world's problems could be easily solved if doctors and scientists made more money and got more attention than people who play make-believe or recess games for a living. But that's how it goes.

I understand how important it is for a society to entertain itself, but I feel things are pretty dramatically out of balance to a seriously unfortunate degree.

[Jester]

We've definitely done this before. But in brief, I pretty much feel the same.

At the end of the day, a lot of the world's problems could be easily solved if doctors and scientists made more money and got more attention than people who play make-believe or recess games for a living. But that's how it goes.

I understand how important it is for a society to entertain itself, but I feel things are pretty dramatically out of balance to a seriously unfortunate degree.
Very much. Teachers should make so much more than someone whose only discernible skill is being able to kick, throw, or hit a ball.

[Davetello]

Yeah it's sad, but then it can also hit you where you live. I couldn't bring myself to watch a Woody Allen or Roman Polanski film, because of the (alleged) sins they've committed....then news hits about Bill Cosby...and I'm torn. Do I defend the man who made me laugh when I watched Himself or do I add his name to the list of scumbags I can't bring myself to support because of what they (allegedly) have done.

I know what you mean, I guess it's sort of linked to plastron's thread, although that wasn't in my mind until your post.

I see nothing wrong with enjoying someone's work or feeling sad that they passed - it's these creepy people who cry over people they've never met in a way they wouldn't even for people they've met in real life, or those who defend someone they don't even know.

What you and plastron refer to is the conflict of liking someone's work but disliking what they've done. That's not strictly what I'm asking here. A celebrity could be a genuine person, but if they're a stranger why would you ever defend them from someone else's criticism on a personal level? This is the sort of hero worship that really gets to me. I have no problem with defence of their talent, but when people call others envious or take offence to the claim that the celebrity might have a problematic personality? That's when it grows tedious. It's like they think that these people are above criticism. The truth is that they're just extremely talented at something which there's a great demand for (or in many cases they're not talented at all) and other than that they're no different to anyone who isn't well-known.

We've definitely done this before. But in brief, I pretty much feel the same.

At the end of the day, a lot of the world's problems could be easily solved if doctors and scientists made more money and got more attention than people who play make-believe or recess games for a living. But that's how it goes.

I understand how important it is for a society to entertain itself, but I feel things are pretty dramatically out of balance to a seriously unfortunate degree.

I make that point all the time - that entertainers should be far less celebrated than doctors, nurses etc. The entire thing is pretty disgusting really, and a sad indictment of our species.

[Leo656]

It's 100% reversed from how sports always started off, too. It always starts with poorer or more working class type people gathering together to play these games for fun, until it got organized and became a business and spectator sport. It literally used to be, people with money bought a ticket to watch "common folk" play ball and blow off steam, whereas NOW, middle-class people spend half a mortgage payment to watch a bunch of spoiled millionaires. It's kind of funny but also kind of tragic.

[Jester]

I get ya Dave, but often the 2 are tied. Some people (like those mentioned above) get a "pass" simply because "dude made ________!! How can you let THAT negate that he made __________!!" It makes you question how someone can be allowed to do things just because they have "talent". I do some pretty mean impressions, but if I beat my wife or did untold things to kids, I'd have a new address and "best friend" really quickly.

Again, it's also a matter of how much you get from celebrity A or B. I gotta admit, it stung when Robin Williams killed himself. I have a lot of fond memories of his movies, and they still bring me joy. Now, I probably wouldn't get too bent out of shape if someone bad mouthed him, but I'd have to take what they were saying and weigh it with the "good times."

[Davetello]

Going back to the charity point, I have to say I find that very, very sinister.

Every time someone criticises Cristiano Ronaldo's personality, for example (the guy named in my sig), which he deserves because some of his behaviour is appalling, you have idiotic fanboys going on and on about his charity work, as if giving to charity is somehow concrete proof that someone is a good person. It's like they think he's above criticism because he gives a small percentage of his disgusting wages to charity. Like he can do anything, and it's fine because "he gives to Palestine and African kids". Then these same people attack another player - the irony being of course that that player also gives to charity.

Celebrities giving to charity is generally PR work - it's not something to commend. True charity isn't to be commended, and even less so when it's a famous person who has more money than God and can reap major PR rewards from the act. Many will call this cynical - I call it realistic.

[Jester]

Yeah, I never understood (and this is kinda off the beaten path, but here we are...) the "Charitable Givings" tax credit. If you're so charitable, then why do you need a government kick back to do it? It's kinda the same with celebrities, they may not get the tax break (ok...I'm sure they do.) but it's also a feather in their cap and really it's almost a ploy to make them MORE famous....

[Davetello]

It's 100% reversed from how sports always started off, too. It always starts with poorer or more working class type people gathering together to play these games for fun, until it got organized and became a business and spectator sport. It literally used to be, people with money bought a ticket to watch "common folk" play ball and blow off steam, whereas NOW, middle-class people spend half a mortgage payment to watch a bunch of spoiled millionaires. It's kind of funny but also kind of tragic.

Lol yes. I am always bemoaning the capitalist nature of sport and how it's betrayed the lifeblood of the games. Very big talking point for soccer, and mirrored over there with baseball, basketball etc. Basketball is a particular example - some of the most deprived kids in North America play basketball yet when they make it to the NBA the whole thing turns into a capitalist monstrosity. It's like the people involved in the game forget where they came from, be it the organisers or the players.

I get ya Dave, but often the 2 are tied. Some people (like those mentioned above) get a "pass" simply because "dude made ________!! How can you let THAT negate that he made __________!!" It makes you question how someone can be allowed to do things just because they have "talent". I do some pretty mean impressions, but if I beat my wife or did untold things to kids, I'd have a new address and "best friend" really quickly.

Again, it's also a matter of how much you get from celebrity A or B. I gotta admit, it stung when Robin Williams killed himself. I have a lot of fond memories of his movies, and they still bring me joy. Now, I probably wouldn't get too bent out of shape if someone bad mouthed him, but I'd have to take what they were saying and weigh it with the "good times."

I get what you mean. I don't think anyone should ever be excused poor behaviour just because of talent. I'm with you there.

Taking your Robin Williams example, he seemed like a nice guy, although without knowing him we can never tell. If someone started insulting the guy then that's their opinion. I wouldn't agree but I don't see why I should devote my time to defending a stranger who I didn't know (although this case might be different as I would always defend the dead as it's not right to insult someone who can't speak for themselves). But if it was a year ago and he was still alive, and someone said "I fvcking hate that clown Robin Williams, I hate his face and he seems like a tool", I'd disagree but I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it as he's a stranger to me. He's not someone I know personally so why spend ages defending him on a personal level?

[Davetello]

Yeah, I never understood (and this is kinda off the beaten path, but here we are...) the "Charitable Givings" tax credit. If you're so charitable, then why do you need a government kick back to do it? It's kinda the same with celebrities, they may not get the tax break (ok...I'm sure they do.) but it's also a feather in their cap and really it's almost a ploy to make them MORE famous....

Exactly. In Ronaldo's case more and more stories started coming out of his 'chairty work' as he was losing individual awards to rival player Leo Messi, and that's not a coincidence. Lots of people dislike the guy, and that 'charity work' has helped him repair his damaged reputation in a sense. Ironically that now earns him more money through increased popularity, as well as more votes for those awards. The entire thing is pretty sick as he's being praised for something which he actually benefits from more than he loses from. It's like some sort of twisted investment.

You hear people say "I used to dislike him but my view has changed now I hear what he does for charity" and I'm thinking "ffs, that's what he wants, how can you not understand how the world works?"

[shuriken]

^^Well that's why Public relations is so important.
This reminds me of this one Dave Chappelle clip when Dave was asked if he thought Michael Jackson was guilty of child abuse

36sKMwbwfWc
It's the same thing. People's fond appreciation of someone's work of art makes them forget or sometimes flat out ignore the terrible things that they have done because separating the the art from the artist is just too damn hard.
For example, I think that Shawn Michaels is one of the best in ring performers ever, but I also know that he's kind of dick to work with, and was just a dick in general. It's an interesting dichotomy between appreciating art and worshipping it.

[Davetello]

Shawn Michaels is a cowardly little weasel who's pretending to be religious because he thinks it compensates for all the nonsense he pulled in the past. He's a tool.

Bret Hart was a better worker anyway. The irony being of course that I used to like Shawn and 'hbk' forms part of my email address. I've become wise to the world since then, though.

Actually, Michaels is a lot like Ronaldo. Both overrated in terms of talent and elevated over superior peers, both treated peers appallingly, both overrated in the looks department, both narcissists, both have legions of creepy fanboys who act like they're gods.

They'd probably get on very well. Maybe we can fire the pair of them to the moon :)

[shuriken]

^^Tool? Maybe
Extremely talented yet a total dick? Of course.
And of course Bret was better. He was the Best in his prime. It's just a damn shame he got a stroke and the last time he wrestled he and his family ganged up on vince Mcmahon for 15 minutes. He had shown interest in wanting to take on Kurt Angle at some point, that would have been amazing.

[Davetello]

^^Tool? Maybe
Extremely talented yet a total dick? Of course.
And of course Bret was better. He was the Best in his prime. It's just a damn shame he got a stroke and the last time he wrestled he and his family ganged up on vince Mcmahon for 15 minutes. He had shown interest in wanting to take on Kurt Angle at some point, that would have been amazing.

Of course he's very talented but the way some go on you'd think he's the best of all time. He isn't. He showed up at Mania but often went through the motions other than that.

Now Angle is someone who would have a claim to being the best ever, at least within WWE. Love his work. I love his match with Shawn at Mania 21. One of my fave ever matches.

I don't really follow wrestling any more though so i'm not that bothered about Michaels's place in history.

[Wesley]

I would only consider high-profile people known around the world like actors to be celebrities. I wouldn't consider most people on reality shows like I'm a Celebrity and celebrity bainisteoir to be celebrities.

[snake]

I hate celeberties, unless there actually good guys like Weird Al or Rob Paulson. Wrestlers have my respect as well.

[Prowler]

Most of the time I can separate one's work from one's persona.

As far as celebrity culture and who is dating who, etc. goes; I couldn't care less about that crap.

[Gunpowder]

I think this is something that's been going on for centuries, and is something that will never stop. People love to associate themselves with the people they respect. That's just psychology. It makes them feel proud of themselves, and it gives them someone to look up to. There are extremist/obsessive cases of it, for sure; and I'm pretty sure that's what you're getting at. But for the most part, celebrities are used as role models, for better or for worse. It isn't always a bad thing or always a good thing.

And while there are people who are undeservedly praised, there are also plenty of people who are undeservedly hated. It's pretty f*cked up.

[BubblyShell22]

I guess it just depends on the celebrity in question. There are a lot of people I admire who are famous such as certain actors and singers, but there are others I just don't like and don't understand why people worship them. For example: Justin Bieber or the Kardashians. I don't like either of them, and I just think it's stupid for people to latch onto them. I'm so thankful I never became a fan of Bieber or the Kardashians.

[MrPliggins]

I sort of understand why actors and singers make so much more money than say, doctors. Because EVERYONE is giving them money. Their income comes from everyone who is a fan around the world, who pays for their movies and music.

However, in that case, why is it that the rest of the movie crews are not rich? To me it's weird that a famous actor gets paid millions for a voiceover role in a disney feature (and half the time they aren't even professional voice actors, but live actors), but the animators don't make crap in comparison. It's really their name that is making the money in that case.

[Metalwolf]

I think a lot of this 'worship' comes from celebrities being seen through a sort of 'filter.' That is, people only see a 'cleaned up' version of them through TV, movies or magazines. Since they don't really know them, they often see only what they 'want' to see.

If they saw them every day and had to interact with them, I have a feeling their sentiments would change. Some of these celebs are genuinely nice, but there are also some that I wouldn't feel safe to be alone with.

I think what affected me about Robin Williams death wasn't because he did a bunch of fun movies, it was because he was described as one of those celebs who even while interacting with regular people, was still kind and caring. What also affected me about him passing, was that it revealed just how unhappy he was in life. Just the manner in the way he died, spoke volumes. Nothing of fame or fortune could remove the personal hell he was going through, and underneath I saw a guy struggling with an internal misery of the sort that I was a bit familiar with myself, although never to the point of planning to take my own life (although I did think of death enough.)

With some of these celebrities though like Bieber, I have a feeling he's eventually going to crash. He doesn't feel like a celebrity to me, but more like one of those folks that won a lottery ticket and now has 'friends' coming out the woodwork.

[pennydreadful]

The type that I find most annoying are those who are famous just for being famous - like the Kardashians or Paris Hilton or Spencer Pratt.

[Gunpowder]

I think what affected me about Robin Williams death wasn't because he did a bunch of fun movies, it was because he was described as one of those celebs who even while interacting with regular people, was still kind and caring. What also affected me about him passing, was that it revealed just how unhappy he was in life. Just the manner in the way he died, spoke volumes. Nothing of fame or fortune could remove the personal hell he was going through, and underneath I saw a guy struggling with an internal misery of the sort that I was a bit familiar with myself, although never to the point of planning to take my own life (although I did think of death enough.)

Totally in agreement with you on this. That man had such a big heart it was a joke. To think he actually reached that point where he could think of no solution other than worst case scenario...that still jabs a hole in me to think about. I was even in denial that it was true for a day or so after hearing about it, because I never even realized until that point that he had been struggling. Whatever he must have been going through, he has my condolences, and losing him was a huge deal. He didn't deserve that.

[Davetello]

Thanks for all the responses. I agree with most - I will select a sample to reply to next time I feel more up to it.

I will respond to one point for now: the point is raised that sports stars, actors etc are paid more than doctors because there is greater demand for them. That's true, supply and demand and capitalism runs Western society. However, it's a shame that that's the way it is. As for why those behind the scenes aren't paid what the actors or singers are? No idea. If you think about it, screenwriters and song writers are the true geniuses, not the performers. They're just a vehicle to bring the creative vision to fruition.

Edit: one thing I am still struggling with though is why people defend these celebrities like they're blood-related. It's almost as if they care about them more than their own relatives. I know the psychology behind this, of course, but I'm still trying to come to terms with their inability to realise that it's very strange behaviour. I've even tried to point it out to certain people but they seem oblivious to their idolatry.

[Leo656]

As far as Robin Williams, I am only speculating but he apparently was facing a battle with dementia among other things, and having had members of my family suffer from Parkinson's and dementia and things like that, I can understand why a person would want to spare themselves and the people they love from going through that. It is very uncomfortable and sad watching people you love slowly deteriorate and forget who they and you are, at times not letting you comfort or care for or speak to them because they think you're a stranger (or worse, out to hurt them). When you're trying to spend as much time with someone as possible before they're gone and they're actively shooing you away or treating you coldly or being outright hostile, it can be very difficult. You know they don't mean it, but it's very hard on everyone. I can understand someone wanting to spare his family that.

Again, I am only speculating, but I have a feeling it was a contributing factor. I'd heard he had begun having difficulties shortly before his death. Just a theory, but it makes sense, to me. I won't approve or condone or say what he did was a "good" thing, but I feel very strongly that every person has a right to their own life and should have a right to go out on their own terms. I don't think it's right to judge people over that, especially because you never know what the last thing they were thinking was. For all anyone knows, what pushed Them over the edge could very well be the thing that sends You over, you just don't know because it hasn't happened yet. :ohwell:

Like, I get the "There's No Good Reason" philosophy. I more or less agree; there are no GOOD reasons... but there are Valid ones.

[BubblyShell22]

Thanks for all the responses. I agree with most - I will select a sample to reply to next time I feel more up to it.

I will respond to one point for now: the point is raised that sports stars, actors etc are paid more than doctors because there is greater demand for them. That's true, supply and demand and capitalism runs Western society. However, it's a shame that that's the way it is. As for why those behind the scenes aren't paid what the actors or singers are? No idea. If you think about it, screenwriters and song writers are the true geniuses, not the performers. They're just a vehicle to bring the creative vision to fruition.

Edit: one thing I am still struggling with though is why people defend these celebrities like they're blood-related. It's almost as if they care about them more than their own relatives. I know the psychology behind this, of course, but I'm still trying to come to terms with their inability to realise that it's very strange behaviour. I've even tried to point it out to certain people but they seem oblivious to their idolatry.

I think it's because they're so fixated on these people's lives that they feel like they do know them and want to defend them. I agree it's kind of stupid, but I can understand why. I know when certain wrestlers have died, I've been very saddened because though I didn't know them personally, I felt like I did because of how long I followed their work in the ring. I felt that way about Cory Monteith's passing as well and just felt this huge hole inside at his passing. When I watched that tribute episode, I cried so hard, and I never do that when I watch a TV show. That's how emotional it was. I didn't know him personally, but since I've followed Glee from the beginning, I did feel like I had a connection with him as a fan. And to me, there's nothing wrong with that.

The behavior you're describing though is definitely insane. I'm not the type to defend anybody if they do something wrong no matter whether I like them or not. I'm the type to call them out on it. Now, if they admit they did wrong and learn from their mistakes, then I'm quick to forgive them for their transgressions, but if not, then I don't forgive them at all.