Interview With Michael Bay: Talks About Problems With TMNT

[Bob]

I think a lot of people won't be too happy after they read this. It’s an interview about other stuff, too, but these are the bits pertaining to TMNT:

"Michael has this divining rod for where the problems are going to be. On Turtles, I don't think we had the right tone. Our original cut was more of a brooding action movie, maybe for an older audience. It's hard to tell the tone in dailies because you can have fun scenes, but when you put the whole thing together, there's an overwhelming emotion you get [that may be different from what you expected].

(HR) At what point did you realize the tone was wrong?

(BAY) When they came to Miami to show me the first cut. We went out to dinner after I saw it, and it was a very civil dinner [with] the director and editor and [VFX supervisor]. So we're having a steak dinner, we have a martini each — and I'm texting Drew. Then he goes to the bathroom. I go to the bathroom. He's at the urinal and [I say], "We are in so much f—ing trouble!" I write Paramount, "Guys, we have a serious problem. We need funny writers right now. Because the pipeline has to keep going." We really had to get that tone right. It was dicey.

(HR)Do you get final cut?

(BAY) We're a final-cut production company. If it's a seasoned veteran, I'm not going to step on their toes. It's their thing. But we listen to the audience."

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-reporter-reveals-2014-producers-758333

Well, I don't think Jonathan Liebesman will be working with Bay anytime soon.

[samxsteal]

I think a lot of people won't be too happy after they read this. It’s an interview about other stuff, too, but these are the bits pertaining to TMNT:



http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-reporter-reveals-2014-producers-758333

Well, I don't think Jonathan Liebesman will be working with Bay anytime soon.
this is really great news this is cool to hear. and really does seem like they are learning from their mistakes

[Leo656]

I don't think you read it right, sam. I think you entirely read it backwards, actually.

Firstly, anyone and everyone can entirely stop with "Bay had nothing to do with it", because there it is in black and white, the buck on this thing stopped with him. SO, no more "Bay had nothing to do with it" nonsense from anyone. PLEASE. There it is. He made the Big Calls. That's straight from The Man himself.

Secondly... uhhh, they originally wanted to do a "brooding action movie for an older audience" and Bay said they needed more comedy and fart jokes. Bay said that the ORIGINAL tone was wrong - the brooding action movie tone - not the tone of the movie we actually got. What we GOT, is what he thinks was the RIGHT way to do the movie, and thus, we can expect more of the same next time out.

The only "mistakes" Bay apparently "learned from", are, "We Need More Of Teh Funny!" :roll: F*ck that guy in the mouth. Seriously.

Just... just no more godddamn movies, please. I'm an old man, my heart can't take the strain.

[samxsteal]

I don't think you read it right, sam. I think you entirely read it backwards, actually.

Firstly, anyone and everyone can entirely stop with "Bay had nothing to do with it", because there it is in black and white, the buck on this thing stopped with him. SO, no more "Bay had nothing to do with it" nonsense from anyone. PLEASE. There it is. He made the Big Calls. That's straight from The Man himself.

Secondly... uhhh, they originally wanted to do a "brooding action movie for an older audience" and Bay said they needed more comedy and fart jokes. Bay said that the ORIGINAL tone was wrong - the brooding action movie tone - not the tone of the movie we actually got. What we GOT, is what he thinks was the RIGHT way to do the movie, and thus, we can expect more of the same next time out.

The only "mistakes" Bay apparently "learned from", are, "We Need More Of Teh Funny!" :roll: F*ck that guy in the mouth. Seriously.

Just... just no more godddamn movies, please. I'm an old man, my heart can't take the strain.
From the interview. It seem that the tone was to serious. That bits and pieces worked alone. But it needed something and tmnt has always been a comedy thing.

AND if bay was so heavily involved from the beginning then why was to tone so messed from the beginning.

TMNT is and has always been lighthearted ALWAYS. This movie has a darker tone with lightheartedness. You keep Say that Bay was there and just said hey Add some freaking fart jokes Are you serious right now. GOD your insufferable dude You act as if your this all knowing Big shot.

IM not saying that Bay wasn't involved but You people think that he has his hands in every thing, by adding every possible negative into the movie. You Ignore all the good stuff and just condemn the living **** out of everything else.

Seriously I take it that there was major miss communication between people. Some wanted to to be this super serious action movie Which does not fit tmnt really(thats not to say it can't be serious ever) And he wanted it to be the more usual Lighthearted version the fit tmnt more. ala 80's show the other movies, the 2k3 show, and the newer nick series even the comics.

You act as if bay has no understanding of Hollywood and that hes just some stupid dude who can't make movies

[TrickOrTreater]

I don't think you read it right, sam. I think you entirely read it backwards, actually.

Firstly, anyone and everyone can entirely stop with "Bay had nothing to do with it", because there it is in black and white, the buck on this thing stopped with him. SO, no more "Bay had nothing to do with it" nonsense from anyone. PLEASE. There it is. He made the Big Calls. That's straight from The Man himself.

Secondly... uhhh, they originally wanted to do a "brooding action movie for an older audience" and Bay said they needed more comedy and fart jokes. Bay said that the ORIGINAL tone was wrong - the brooding action movie tone - not the tone of the movie we actually got. What we GOT, is what he thinks was the RIGHT way to do the movie, and thus, we can expect more of the same next time out.

The only "mistakes" Bay apparently "learned from", are, "We Need More Of Teh Funny!" :roll: F*ck that guy in the mouth. Seriously.

Just... just no more godddamn movies, please. I'm an old man, my heart can't take the strain.

Yep.

And lookie there, it all went right over Sam's head.

What a shock.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

AND if bay was so heavily involved from the beginning then why was to tone so messed from the beginning.

you just answered your own question...as Leo said its in black and white ...right there..from the words of the almighty creator

they had Dinner..Bay didnt like it..they changed it

[Xiewin]

...And it took all this deducing that the music was trying to be emotional when it needed to be heroic, kick-ass. And it literally swung the audience. Movies are made to be seen. You don't have to respect everything [an audience] is feeling, but there's certain things where they will really guide you.

this is pretty much a confirmation that the sequel won't be an improvement from the first.

It's really sad to think that will never get a great live-action turtles movie.

[Leo656]

Yeah, really. I've tried, sam. Fact is, I'm right way more than I'm wrong, and when I am wrong, I don't make excuses for it. Like, for example, I didn't think the movie was gonna make as much as it did. Mostly because of the release date. I figured there'd be some heavy fatigue amongst theater audiences and parents not wanting to go to the movies for an 8th time that summer. That was a conservative bet, and I was wrong. See? Not hard. My track record is really, really strong, in general. I could make a list about every single thing I predicted about just this one movie that turned out to be 100% true, but I'd be here all day. But I'm not right every time. So, yeah... oops?

You, on the other hand, are wrong about a lot of stuff, but whenever you get faced with it, when there's Proof that you're wrong, you backpedal, you twist words, you come up with straw man arguments that hold no weight, and you interpret people's words the exact opposite of what they mean. Every single time. Occasionally, you even make it personal. You're not the only one, but the fact you've been this movie's biggest cheerleader while NEVER ONCE admitting you were wrong or mistaken about anything is way more "insufferable" than me citing Inconvenient Truths.

Still gonna tell me they had Japanese Shredder planned from Day One? Because... they admitted they did that last-minute. You were... pretty adamant they didn't, aaaand, you called people names over it. Aaaand, you were proven wrong. Like, not A Little wrong, Entirely, 100% wrong. Apology? Admission of being wrong? I don't care, personally, but it'd speak well to your character.

I'm pretty sure you're a good guy based on what I've seen/read but your comprehension needs work and you need to man up to your mistakes. If you're gonna make the amount of noise you do, then take the hit when you're wrong and say so. So you misread the article. Big deal, I ain't mad at ya, I just pointed out what you misread. That's "insufferable"? Dude, you completely misread what the people being quoted in the article actually said. That's A Fact, don't get F'n mad at me.

I don't have to be patient with people when I'm forced to constantly point out mistakes they make or things they misunderstand. I've never attacked you, guy, and I've called you a "buddy", but holy sh*t, man, check yourself. I've stood up for you when other people here were straight-up giving you The Business. From now on, I guess I'll refrain from that, since my help isn't appreciated?

I ain't even angry, just disappointed. I'm really disappointed that my faith in some people is entirely misplaced.

[samxsteal]

you just answered your own question...as Leo said its in black and white ...right there..from the words of the almighty creator

they had Dinner..Bay didnt like it..they changed itNo Hes said they had start woirk on and got pretty far and then once he was there he had found it was the wrong tone Not that he was there every step of the way.

Yeah, really. I've tried, sam. Fact is, I'm right way more than I'm wrong, and when I am wrong, I don't make excuses for it. Like, for example, I didn't think the movie was gonna make as much as it did. Mostly because of the release date. I figured there'd be some heavy fatigue amongst theater audiences and parents not wanting to go to the movies for an 8th time that summer. That was a conservative bet, and I was wrong. See? Not hard. My track record is really, really strong, in general. I could make a list about every single thing I predicted about just this one movie that turned out to be 100% true, but I'd be here all day. But I'm not right every time. So, yeah... oops? How arrogant can one man be really Really. Yup Your all knowing. ANd literally this is the frist time you even admitted you were wrong. EVER since i joined at least You blast on as if you this holly untouchable FORUM USER. you've threaten users and seriously whats funny is it worked be proud of your self.

You, on the other hand, are wrong about a lot of stuff, but whenever you get faced with it, when there's Proof that you're wrong, you backpedal, you twist words, you come up with straw man arguments that hold no weight, and you interpret people's words the exact opposite of what they mean. Every single time. Occasionally, you even make it personal. You're not the only one, but the fact you've been this movie's biggest cheerleader while NEVER ONCE admitting you were wrong or mistaken about anything is way more "insufferable" than me citing Inconvenient Truths. Bull ****. I said that a Japanese Shredder was a major possibility and i even said that there would be a Japanese Shredder and i was right. I said that I had faith that they was always an option, Was i wrong about the extent of what they planned sure But i was still right that there would be a Japanese Shredder that that it would work out Heck half my half back theories were freaking true. Ive Never called people names. I have been Threatened made fun off definitely called name. and You know what those users still on here still posting. With friends that were banned for much less. Whats that mean.

In what other ways have i been wrong about this movie.

Most of the Arguments come down to just being opinions Some people think there was to much April I didn't feel that way Thats still just an opinion. Unless there is some Algorithm about to much screen time for characters.

Still gonna tell me they had Japanese Shredder planned from Day One? Because... they admitted they did that last-minute. You were... pretty adamant they didn't, aaaand, you called people names over it. Aaaand, you were proven wrong. Like, not A Little wrong, Entirely, 100% wrong. Apology? Admission of being wrong? I don't care, personally, but it'd speak well to your character.They Never Admitted they added him last minute Evidence show they added him late in the production. I Said that it was a huge possibility that this was the plan the whole time about that i was wrong. But there were those who said that there was no possible way they could have a Japanese Shredder well those people were wrong.

I have never called anyone name Have a said that the were being annoying yes that not name calling thats stating my OPINION of there actions.

I'm pretty sure you're a good guy based on what I've seen/read but your comprehension needs work and you need to man up to your mistakes. If you're gonna make the amount of noise you do, then take the hit when you're wrong and say so. So you misread the article. Big deal, I ain't mad at ya, I just pointed out what you misread. That's "insufferable"? Dude, you completely misread what the people being quoted in the article actually said. That's A Fact, don't get F'n mad at me.Im the first person to man up on my mistakes Anyone who actually knows this for a fact. How did i miss read the Article???

I don't have to be patient with people when I'm forced to constantly point out mistakes they make or things they misunderstand. I've never attacked you, guy, and I've called you a "buddy", but holy sh*t, man, check yourself. I've stood up for you when other people here were straight-up giving you The Business. From now on, I guess I'll refrain from that, since my help isn't appreciated? What mistakes have i made Beside spelling and grammar, which i have admitted to being terrible at nor do i care. Other then that I admit if im wrong but i dont feel as if i have even been proven wrong especially when Most of the "mistakes" are that my opinions are wrong which is not correct.

I ain't even angry, just disappointed. I'm really disappointed that my faith in some people is entirely misplaced.

IM sorry I dont condemn a movie that I wholeheartedly Enjoyed, that entertained me on multiple levels. Just because it wasn't what others wanted.

[IndigoErth]

Saw that last night and had skimmed over it right quick. Wish more on TMNT had said, but what's there is interesting.

we have a martini each
After the waitstaff had already removed the other 10 empty glasses, right? 'Cuz some things in that film surely required drunkenness.

[plastroncafe]

After the waitstaff had already removed the other 10 empty glasses, right? 'Cuz some things in that film surely required drunkenness.

Trust me, it didn't help.

[TrickOrTreater]

Trust me, it didn't help.

I do not drink, not a fan of it at all.

I wanted to after I saw the movie.

[Leo656]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/567/709/08f.png

I don't know how someone can QUOTE me, dissect said quote, and still get every single thing inside-out. You're one of a kind, buddy.

You use the quote where I flat-out say, "I don't have a problem being wrong if it's proven", and even give an example... and you go ahead and FIRST say I think I'm "all-knowing", THEN you actually use the exact words I actually said... and then complain I'm not wrong often enough? What am I supposed to say to that? I'm... sorry? I'm sorry my predictions and gut instincts are usually right? I'm sorry I use things like evidence and experience to predict things and don't just run off at the mouth?

I mean, I'm NOT sorry, because that's what everyone should do before they put themselves out there so strongly, but... sorry it hurts your feelings, I guess?

I'unnno, man. This isn't even about a movie anymore. It's about separating Fact from Fiction. Anyone can read your last post and see that you have issues with that. Again, sorry. Not my fault at all.

And threats... really... I... don't remember doing that. Do you mean me telling people I can "make 'em disappear"? WOW, do you read too much into things. For one, it's a joke, and secondly, I think I said it once, and finally... the guy I said that to, I don't think is here anymore. See? I'm right even when I'm not even trying. :lol:

I think you just need a super-villain to cast yourself against and I'm an easy target. Not interested.

Damn right I'm arrogant, though. My eyes are gorgeous as f*ck. Not sorry.

[bushido]

"But we listen to the audience" Michael Bay

http://replygif.net/i/247.gifhttp://replygif.net/i/1167.gif

[IndigoErth]

Trust me, it didn't help.
Exactly... because probably only after several does "how-to ninja book" sound like a great plan.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

I want to see the 'brooding action film' version.

[Candy Kappa]

Exactly... because probably only after several does "how-to ninja book" sound like a great plan.

It's a great way to shorten the character list, so it won't be so crowded like Amazing Spider-man 2 was.

[plastroncafe]

Considering PD-TMNT had the same basic plot as Amazing Spider-man, I can only imaging they're saving the Too-Many-Characters for the sequel.

Oh hai thar Bebop and Rocksteady, how's it going?

[NinjaPug]

How can anyone read that and have positive thoughts about the future of this franchise?

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Considering PD-TMNT had the same basic plot as Amazing Spider-man, I can only imaging they're saving the Too-Many-Characters for the sequel.

Oh hai thar Bebop and Rocksteady, how's it going?

Bebop, Rocksteady, Shredder, William Fichtner, Karai, Casey, April, Vern, Whoopi, and I'm sure they'll try to push in Krang, have scenes between April & her good friend Irma...

And, oh yeah, the Turtles will be there. Just don't blink or you'll miss them.

[Commenter 42]

Sounds like no one, at all knew what the **** they were doing, and all of a sudden, Bay is done with TF, looks over at Liebse, and is like "aw hell no son!"

He then got involved to FUBAR the film, but started with a FUBAR film, so the end result was a double negative. (Yes you can have one, apparently, PDTMNT is the proof.)

[IndigoErth]

And, oh yeah, the Turtles will be there. Just don't blink or you'll miss them.
Poor guys may as well stay home. :ohwell:

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

How can anyone read that and have positive thoughts about the future of this franchise?

optimism..

which i get, im a pretty optimist guy...but some people just turn a blind eye to things

[Galactus]

Bull ****. I said that a Japanese Shredder was a major possibility and i even said that there would be a Japanese Shredder and i was right. I said that I had faith that they was always an option, Was i wrong about the extent of what they planned sure But i was still right that there would be a Japanese Shredder that that it would work out Heck half my half back theories were freaking true. Ive Never called people names. I have been Threatened made fun off definitely called name. and You know what those users still on here still posting. With friends that were banned for much less. Whats that mean.

I can't speak for your conversations on here with Leo656 however I'm sure you remember we've had some discussions on here too and I remember when it was officially announced that it was not going to be William Fichtner playing Shredder you were very vehement (to the point of obnoxious I'd say) that this had been the plan all along and that the idea Eric Sachs character was Shredder to be a red herring that we all just mad we didn't see. Obviously we know now that was not the case.

Very much like how you were adamant that the re-shoots were purely down to Megan Fox having a pre-pregnancy figure like Bay said and not to make last minute changes. How you sneered and tried to make out the rest of us we're paranoid morons for seeing something we know now to be true.

I don't know what theories you had about the movie that turned out to be true but since you've said about how you don't like being called names maybe I didn't like the inference that I was stupid because I could not see they were "obviously going down the reincarnation route" - I guess I wasn't so stupid after all.;)

Same for any number of claims like Hamato Yoshi being present to the idea after the movie came out there was still a possibility he could still be connected to Yoshi despite Leibesman's own words saying that was not his intention.

The board has a certain tone a lot of times. A lot of posters here are long time fans that know the franchise inside and sometimes a lot of us can come across as know-it-alls on tje subject of TMNT when debates get intense but you don't even need that. You've been one of the worst offenders of this and the sad thing is you don't even see it.

[Leo656]

Reading more of that interview, Bay comes off as the most arrogant prick on Earth. And he contradicts himself constantly!

He swears he has pretty good gut instincts... but admits he thought "Raiders" was going to be trash. He thought the *music* was why Transformers 3 didn't work. He swears they picked the "right" ending for the Elm Street remake, and yet, that movie was totally panned. Which, to be fair, was probably only partly because of the ending, but it shows his judgment is pretty skewed on what "works" vs. what doesn't. The way he casually jokes about lording it over his subserviants and whatnot, flat-out walking out of the room dismissively when people don't agree with him, basically acting like King Dictator of every project he's involved with... :roll:

Yeah, gimme more of what this guy's selling. He totally cares about his audience. He says he can hear what people say, but I don't think he could possibly hear anything at all with his head jammed that far up his own ass.

Sh*t rolls downhill, gang.

[TrickOrTreater]

Reading more of that interview, Bay comes off as the most arrogant prick on Earth. And he contradicts himself constantly!

He swears he has pretty good gut instincts... but admits he thought "Raiders" was going to be trash. He thought the *music* was why Transformers 3 didn't work. He swears they picked the "right" ending for the Elm Street remake, and yet, that movie was totally panned. Which, to be fair, was probably only partly because of the ending, but it shows his judgment is pretty skewed on what "works" vs. what doesn't. The way he casually jokes about lording it over his subserviants and whatnot, flat-out walking out of the room dismissively when people don't agree with him, basically acting like King Dictator of every project he's involved with... :roll:

Yeah, gimme more of what this guy's selling. He totally cares about his audience. He says he can hear what people say, but I don't think he could possibly hear anything at all with his head jammed that far up his own ass.

Sh*t rolls downhill, gang.

And people are eating it up and are actually EAGER to eat more of it up.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Yeah, gimme more of what this guy's selling. He totally cares about his audience. He says he can hear what people say, but I don't think he could possibly hear anything at all with his head jammed that far up his own ass.


I hate the film as much as anyone else, but keep in mind that they did bother to reshoot to include Saki. Of course, we ended up with an even worse film than we would have had they just kept Sachs as Shredder, but at least they tried.

I don't know if they were trying to please longtime fans in some misguided fashion or just trying to cover their own asses. Either way they're at least in tune with what the audience wants to some degree.

[Leo656]

I do give 'em credit for being willing to bend, but it doesn't at all change the fact that from the very start, their entire approach was wrong.

Maybe if they'd gotten people who actually knew TMNT and cared about it, instead of a few guys who watched the show a few times 20 years ago and then forgot about it, they could have started things off on the right foot and gone from there, instead of scrambling to "fix" things when it was already too late.

[Candy Kappa]

Technically, we don't know that Shredder's name is Saki, or Oroku Saki. They never said his name. We only "know" it, because we are familiar with TMNT as a brand. They never bothered to provide the supposed main baddie an actual name, even Slinter don't know Shredder's name.

[NinjaPug]

Technically, we don't know that Shredder's name is Saki, or Oroku Saki. They never said his name. We only "know" it, because we are familiar with TMNT as a brand. They never bothered to provide the supposed main baddie an actual name, even Slinter don't know Shredder's name.

They didn't even explain how Splinter knew who Shredder was to begin with.

[sethmartin]

Eh, the movie isn't that bad. I went in with mid to low expectations but just accepted it for what it is. I try to imagine how I would have felt about the movie if I had seen it at 8 years old. I would have thought it was incredible. That being said, I can do without the origin story. I'm tired of seeing it. I just want new turtle adventures. Now, I own the movie and even though it's not a great movie and I'm not crazy about the old tired (bad guy poisoning the air/water supply) storyline, there are scenes that I really enjoy watching.

A. Splinter/ Shredder fight- Yes, in context of the movie, who cares, but the fight itself is awesome! Also the first time Splinter actually fought Shredder in a movie. I like the Shredder suit and blades (although I would have liked to see his eyes. I think that would have helped) also I kind of like the fact Splinter uses his tail to fight. I know he never did it before, but honestly, why wouldn't he?

B. Snow battle- By far my favorite scene in the movie. Yes it's crazy over the top and certain things aren't realistic, but hey, it's human size turtles fighting crime. I check realism at the door. VFX are awesome and the scene was well done.

C. Elevator scene, turtles being punished scene, meeting April O'Neil on the rooftop- These were the most "Ninja Turtles" scenes out of the whole movie so I liked them.

D. Turtles vs. Shredder fight- once again, in the context of the movie, who cares. However, the fight itself is badass and I liked that the turtles fought in the bright sunlight so you could see every detail and how they still managed to go unseen. Also liked how they had to work together to defeat Shredder. If there had been a more interesting backstory with Shredder, it would have made this scene pay off more but it's still awesome in and of itself.

Bottom line, I was entertained through the whole thing even though it's not great. I think if they keep what worked, scrap what didnt, and move the story forward by bringing in characters we remember from childhood. A sequel could be good. I don't know if any of the filmmakers "learned from their mistakes" but hopefully Paramount did and will take more time and consideration with the sequel. Redesigning the turtles a bit wouldn't hurt. Technodrome, Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady is what I want to see. "The Dark Knight" I thought was way better than "Batman Begins" so there is no excuse as to why Paramount can't get it right the second time out. As fans, let's just make our voices heard about what we WANT and maybe we'll get it. :)

[TrickOrTreater]

Eh, the movie isn't that bad. I went in with mid to low expectations but just accepted it for what it is. I try to imagine how I would have felt about the movie if I had seen it at 8 years old. I would have thought it was incredible.

I love that some fans of this property are perfectly okay with mediocre to bad just because.

And as I've said before, even kids deserve better than what they got. Because kids movies don't have to suck ass for them to like it.

[Leo656]

I agree with his sentiment that if we raise our voice we might get some positive change rolling. But I maintain that nothing truly good can come from THIS group of filmmakers, as far as TMNT. The wrong people are making it; everything else is just band-aids on bullet wounds.

...which the Turtles would know nothing about... because... they're bullet-proof... because that's a good idea... for... some... reason...

[sethmartin]

I love that some fans of this property are perfectly okay with mediocre to bad just because.

And as I've said before, even kids deserve better than what they got. Because kids movies don't have to suck ass for them to like it.

And I love how some fans are just cynical just because. Why can't I like certain things but not others. Turtles 3 was terrible, Turtle Tunes is the worst tape ever and let's not forget Turtles Christmas! That's what I got as a kid. I would have preferred this movie over any of that. Not everything has to be black or white, terriffic or terrible. Most movies fall somewhere in between and it's perfectly ok to like certain aspects of a film without just dismissing it as terrible. There are many many movies I feel this way about so being a "turtle fan" has nothing to do with it.

[sethmartin]

I agree with his sentiment that if we raise our voice we might get some positive change rolling. But I maintain that nothing truly good can come from THIS group of filmmakers, as far as TMNT. The wrong people are making it; everything else is just band-aids on bullet wounds.

...which the Turtles would know nothing about... because... they're bullet-proof... because that's a good idea... for... some... reason...

They already replaced the director so that's a start. I would like to see different screenwriters. I don't mind that the shells are bulletproof because that's the reason turtles have shells to protect them from danger, but their skin shouldn't be.

[NinjaPug]

I agree with his sentiment that if we raise our voice we might get some positive change rolling. But I maintain that nothing truly good can come from THIS group of filmmakers, as far as TMNT. The wrong people are making it; everything else is just band-aids on bullet wounds.

...which the Turtles would know nothing about... because... they're bullet-proof... because that's a good idea... for... some... reason...

$$$ is the only thing that will force positive change. PD knows they can produce drivel and people will still go see it. Why put time and energy into making something good if you don't have to? The general movie-going audience has screwed us on this one.

[Autbot_Benz]

And I love how some fans are just cynical just because. Why can't I like certain things but not others. Turtles 3 was terrible, Turtle Tunes is the worst tape ever and let's not forget Turtles Christmas! That's what I got as a kid. I would have preferred this movie over any of that. Not everything has to be black or white, terriffic or terrible. Most movies fall somewhere in between and it's perfectly ok to like certain aspects of a film without just dismissing it as terrible. There are many many movies I feel this way about so being a "turtle fan" has nothing to do with it.

Just Ignore/put on ignore TrickorTreater he is nothing but negativity.

[TrickOrTreater]

I agree with his sentiment that if we raise our voice we might get some positive change rolling. But I maintain that nothing truly good can come from THIS group of filmmakers, as far as TMNT. The wrong people are making it; everything else is just band-aids on bullet wounds.

...which the Turtles would know nothing about... because... they're bullet-proof... because that's a good idea... for... some... reason...

Because being badass ninja turtles just wasn't good enough for Lord Bay.

And I love how some fans are just cynical just because.

Ha. Yeah, I'm not cynical "just because." Because I love the cartoon. Which is genuine and genuinely good with creative and talented people who are also fans working on it. No cynicism there, sport.

I've seen the movie. It was awful. That's the reason I have zero faith in this creative team for a sequel. The VERY TINY LITTLE BIT of good that it had is completely outweighed by the sh*t. And there's a lot of it.

The "wait and see" period is over. I saw, and it sucked.

$$$ is the only thing that will force positive change. PD knows they can produce drivel and people will still go see it. Why put time and energy into making something good if you don't have to? The general movie-going audience has screwed us on this one.

Boy howdy is that true.

[pennydreadful]

I log into the 'drome, and the first two threads I look at make me want to slam my head repeatedly with a car door.

Is it too early in the day to start drinking? It's always 5.00pm somewhere, right?

http://media.giphy.com/media/58Nw5LXCWOhBS/giphy.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e12647a2626bf1c6daf0d40a12840f48/tumblr_mop2xwZkJk1r0tb8bo1_500.gif

[Leo656]

They already replaced the director so that's a start. I would like to see different screenwriters.

I hear ya, brah. Problem is, they replaced the director because he didn't match Bay's "vision", though. Bay said he thought the movie needed more humor. We all know now what he meant: boner and fart jokes and buck-buck and a bunch of other misfires.

Liebsman was only hired in the first place because he would fall in line, and... apparently, he didn't quite fall in line enough, and that's why he's out. So, using deductive reasoning, that implies his replacement will be even more of a figurehead with no voice, no power, and no authority. :ohwell:

Doesn't fill me with any confidence at all. Even new writers wouldn't fix anything, knowing what we know now. It's Bay's Movie/Series. Always was, always will be. There really can't be any debate about that, anymore, it's impossible to dispute who The Boss is when it's coming from his own mouth. And Bay, frankly, is an asshole. All the biggest problems start and end with him. I wasn't entirely certain of that until literally just today.

It's not what I want to be true, but... it is true. Until the franchise is rescued from being kept hostage by PD, nobody should expect anything more than what we already got. Some folks are okay with that; most folks aren't. I'm not.

[BubblyShell22]

Same here, Leo. It was always going to be Bay's movie no matter what, and it looks like this sequel's going to be more of the same but with a new director which won't change things. I'm not happy about it either, but we know there are people who will just eat this up and not care because it's TMNT and that makes it okay to produce horrible movies.

[IndigoErth]

Is it too early in the day to start drinking? It's always 5.00pm somewhere, right?
Yup, my time zone. Go right ahead.

[BubblyShell22]

In fifteen minutes, it will be 5:00 in the central timezone, so drink away.

[pennydreadful]

I think I'm gonna need it - people are going nuts in the threads here today. Stressful time or year or wot?

I now declare it cocktail hour until the madness has passed.

[Leo656]

Really just one dude who feels backed into a corner flipping on everyone else.

[bushido]

Maybe Michael Bay is mad because turtles are not aliens as he wanted at the beginning

[Venom]

this is really great news this is cool to hear. and really does seem like they are learning from their mistakes

By throwing out the original, *better* tone of the movie?

No sir, you are badly mistaken; Bay is saying he's going "Secret of the Ooze" with the sequel.

If he wanted to "take a chance" at great flick, he would have kept the original tone intact.

For 25 years, fans have wanted another Turtle movie that captured the tone of the first film. We're still waiting for that to happen.

And your comment about the Turtles "always being lighthearted". Uhhhhhh, no. The only lighthearted aspect was the OT and its derivatives. The original Turtles, the Mirage Turtles, the ones that all others are built from, were not lighthearted.

They were brooding, introspective, they could be fun, yes, but lighthearted they were not, and clearly it resonated with people back then, otherwise each issue of the books would not have sold hundreds of thousands before Eastman and Laird became busy with the cartoon and had to leave the title.

[sethmartin]

I hated the fart joke. Also hated the tact on ending (oops we forgot to put the turtle van in there) I thought will Arnet and Michelangelo had some funny lines. I agree that the turtles need humor but let's get some good comedy writers I. There that know how to mix it in. Also more scenes with the turtles just interacting with each other.

[Leo656]

Problem is, Bay still has to approve any new writer's attempts at "humor". We already saw what he approves of. Can't be trusted.

I mean, technically you're asking for the right stuff, but, I don't think we're gonna get any of that from This Guy. :ohwell:

[Candy Kappa]

Some martial arts would've been nice too. Like a few techniques from Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, cause seriously. Leo was lacking in the sword using department. And some Ryukyu kobujutsu with the Sai and Nunchaku... And Bo Jutsu.

The weapons was barely used.

I was also sad to see that the movie had no Sansetsukon action, despite the movie Mikey action figure came with one instead of two Nunchaku.

[Venom]

Problem is, Bay still has to approve any new writer's attempts at "humor". We already saw what he approves of. Can't be trusted.

I mean, technically you're asking for the right stuff, but, I don't think we're gonna get any of that from This Guy. :ohwell:

Agreed.

Why the hell couldn't Bay leave things be and shoot the Fusco script? Or if Fusco only had a treatment, expand it to a full script. That guy knows how to meld action, comradery, and humor!

[Leo656]

Some martial arts would've been nice too. Like a few techniques from Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, cause seriously. Leo was lacking in the sword using department. And some Ryukyu kobujutsu with the Sai and Nunchaku... And Bo Jutsu.

The weapons was barely used.

I was also sad to see that the movie had no Sansetsukon action, despite the movie Mikey action figure came with one instead of two Nunchaku.

Mikey did some kinda jumping spin-kick thing, so, we got plenty.

[Candy Kappa]

And Raph made a Foot airborne, I guess that fills our martial arts quota :lol:

[sethmartin]

By throwing out the original, *better* tone of the movie?

No sir, you are badly mistaken; Bay is saying he's going "Secret of the Ooze" with the sequel.

If he wanted to "take a chance" at great flick, he would have kept the original tone intact.

For 25 years, fans have wanted another Turtle movie that captured the tone of the first film. We're still waiting for that to happen.

And your comment about the Turtles "always being lighthearted". Uhhhhhh, no. The only lighthearted aspect was the OT and its derivatives. The original Turtles, the Mirage Turtles, the ones that all others are built from, were not lighthearted.

They were brooding, introspective, they could be fun, yes, but lighthearted they were not, and clearly it resonated with people back then, otherwise each issue of the books would not have sold hundreds of thousands before Eastman and Laird became busy with the cartoon and had to leave the title.



Sadly, I don't think we'll ever see a Turtles movie which is a straight comic book adaption unless it was a small budget film like the first. However, I'm loving the animated films that DC and Marvel have been releasing over the last couple of years. Would be awesome to see an animated film of Ninja Turtles like that. Especially an adaptation of the early books.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Mikey did some kinda jumping spin-kick thing, so, we got plenty.

Leonardo did a hadoken at one point

[Candy Kappa]

And, Leo ducked while Raph hit a Foot Soldier behind him, that's like *sigh* *Megan Fox voice* Ninjas *moan* That do kaaaraaateeeh... *pant*

[Leo656]

:lol: I had a kids' storybook once where they were fighting a group of bad guys, and Leo does some kinda move, and Raph calls him out, like, "That wasn't ninjitsu! That was karate!" or something like that. :lol: Your comment made me think of it.

[TrickOrTreater]

Imagine a Splinter/Shredder fight like we got in the cartoon, with all the badassness and emotion and tension and weight behind it...but live action.

Why can't I have that?

Why do these people hate awesome things?

[Leo656]

Because Michael Bay raped their childho-...

....Wait...:fshifty:

...No, that doesn't work... we're talking about Michael Bay and His Gang of Criminally Insane Nitwits...

......So who the hell raped BAY'S childhood? F*cking Skeletor?!

[B-Man]

On one hand, it is a Nickelodeon production with kids merch attached to it, and if the film was too serious, it would be a concern. But what bugs me is... Bay isn't funny. The humour in his movies is always loud & obnoxious (people screaming insults at eachother is 95% of the comedy in his movies). He shouldn't be the judge or whats funny & what isn't. It also bugs me that no-one's doing quality control over his movies and going "We have a serious problem. Your movie is 3 hours of torture."

[Leo656]

That's because Nobody DARES to question the undisputed King of Sh*t Mountain, buddy. :lol:

[B-Man]

:lol: I just don't like the idea of the dude who made Age Of Extinction thinking he's an authority on... anything, let alone comedy.

[Autbot_Benz]

Age of Extinction was awesome my second favorite besides the first.

[Leo656]

I liked Armageddon.

Fitting, because every movie he's worked on since then makes me pray for the end of the world.

[B-Man]

Age of Extinction was awesome my second favorite besides the first.

Fair enough. All I know is, I saw it in a sold-out theater, all of us stoked to see Mark Wahlberg vs. Decepticons. Obnoxious gag after obnoxious gag was thrown at us. Crickets. For Three Hours. I've never seen a theater of people depart so quickly the second the lights went up.

[Leo656]

You know your movie has problems when Dirk F'n Diggler can't fix it.

Maybe he should'a just whipped his hose out at the end. :lol:

[TrickOrTreater]

You know your movie has problems when Dirk F'n Diggler can't fix it.

Maybe he should'a just whipped his hose out at the end. :lol:

The genius inventor/farmer/single dad/Bostonian...

I think we just found a wicked Transformah.

[Leo656]

"I FAHCKIN' KNOW KUH-RAHTY, MAN!" :lol:

[Bloodsucker]

The genius inventor/farmer/single dad/Bostonian...

I think we just found a wicked Transformah.

We are getting more of the same now, take a look http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/KingPatel/news/?a=112588

[TrickOrTreater]

We are getting more of the same now, take a look http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/KingPatel/news/?a=112588

I always felt really sorry for Transformers fans.

But now, as a TMNT fan, I know exactly how they feel.

[Leo656]

If there's a scene where he bangs Heather Graham in the backseat of Bumblebee while she's wearing roller skates I swear I'll forgive everything. EVERYTHING. :lol:

[Jester]

I always felt really sorry for Transformers fans.

But now, as a TMNT fan, I know exactly how they feel.
Yeah...that's how I felt about the whole thing too...now they gone and done my franchise.... :(

[TrickOrTreater]

If there's a scene where he bangs Heather Graham in the backseat of Bumblebee while she's wearing roller skates I swear I'll forgive everything. EVERYTHING. :lol:

I stopped watching those movies at the second one.

And nothing of value was lost.

Yeah...that's how I felt about the whole thing too...now they gone and done my franchise.... :(

Hard and without protection. :(

[Leo656]

...I was just making a Boogie Nights reference...

Because that's totally my favorite Marky Mark movie, by far. No contest.

[B-Man]

...I was just making a Boogie Nights reference...

Because that's totally my favorite Marky Mark movie, by far. No contest.

Same here. One of my fave movies of all time. Best ensemble cast ever...? Hell, even Thomas Jane was amazing in it.

[Leo656]

So then...

...................."Whadda you squat?" :lol:

(One of us was gonna say it)

[B-Man]

:lol: suprised at some point Bay hasn't quoted this movie in relation to fan backlash:

"What can you expect when you're on top? You know? It's like Napoleon. When he was the king, you know, people were just constantly trying to conquer him, you know, in the Roman Empire. So, it's... history repeating itself all over again."

[Leo656]

((Michael Bay, caught on tape, admonishing those who would dare question his genius...))

"YA KNOW WHAT I'M THINKIN' ABOUT, MAN? I'M THINKIN' ABOUT KICKIN' SOME F***IN' ASS! I KNOW F***IN' KARATE!" :lol:

((Followed by...))
"I'M the boss of ME! I'M the king of ME! I'm Michael Bay! I'M the STAR! It's MY big d***, and I say WE ROLL!" :lol:

Meanwhile, I'm over here like...
"Ahhh, my f***in' TMNT franchise, man... she's over there... she's got some idiot's d*** in her, people standing around, watching... it's a f***ing embarrassment..." :lol:

[pennydreadful]

Yeah...that's how I felt about the whole thing too...now they gone and done my franchise.... :(

These things come in threes. I'm telling you, they're gonna give him something else that's beloved from the 80s to mangle, and I'm convinced it's gonna be Thundercats. Or He-Man.

[Anton Chigurh]

How can anyone read that and have positive thoughts about the future of this franchise?

X2, this is not a good sign

[Autbot_Benz]

I hope Bay does Voltron next that would look awesome. Hope he does He Man and Thundercats too.

[Leo656]

Thaaaaaat's it. Get out.

Or go to your room. Or go to bed. Go sit in the corner. Something. PUNISH YOURSELF, FOR I DON'T HAVE THE TIME.

[Casey]

I don't think you read it right, sam. I think you entirely read it backwards, actually.

Firstly, anyone and everyone can entirely stop with "Bay had nothing to do with it", because there it is in black and white, the buck on this thing stopped with him. SO, no more "Bay had nothing to do with it" nonsense from anyone. PLEASE. There it is. He made the Big Calls. That's straight from The Man himself.

Secondly... uhhh, they originally wanted to do a "brooding action movie for an older audience" and Bay said they needed more comedy and fart jokes. Bay said that the ORIGINAL tone was wrong - the brooding action movie tone - not the tone of the movie we actually got. What we GOT, is what he thinks was the RIGHT way to do the movie, and thus, we can expect more of the same next time out.

The only "mistakes" Bay apparently "learned from", are, "We Need More Of Teh Funny!" :roll: F*ck that guy in the mouth. Seriously.

Just... just no more godddamn movies, please. I'm an old man, my heart can't take the strain.

YES. All of this.

[Shark_Blade]

I hope Bay does Voltron next that would look awesome. Hope he does He Man and Thundercats too.

I'm curious how they'd do Thundercats. :D

He-Man, I think we recently had a movie about that already.. oh wait, that's Conan the barbarian. I never distinguish the two, it seems like the same thing to me.

Never heard of Voltron though.

[Leo656]

.....................

http://i.imgur.com/RdDL4.gif

[Autbot_Benz]

I'm curious how they'd do Thundercats. :D

He-Man, I think we recently had a movie about that already.. oh wait, that's Conan the barbarian. I never distinguish the two, it seems like the same thing to me.

Never heard of Voltron though.

Voltron is an cartoon that features a team of space explorers that pilot a giant super robot known as "Voltron which is made up of 5 mighty lions.

[Jester]

Man, season 2 of the Nick series must have been lost on you, Sharky, eh?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

THIS is Voltron:

http://www.voltron.com/images/uploads/Lion-Force.jpg

http://www.toonopolis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/voltron-force-20110616040904540.jpg

http://www.actionfigurepics.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Voltron.jpg

These are the pilots:

http://cdn1.sciencefiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/428418-voltron.jpg

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/134/4/0/Voltron_by_Franchesco.jpg

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, he should prob do Voltron. Robot-like so they can just use some of their same formula. (Ok, and I wasn't too tightly attached to that series either so if they messed it up I'd prob not know any better.) I'm placing my bets though on He-Man. AND I bet they'd include She-Ra in a He-Man movie. I can't see the likes of Bay doing a movie focused on a largely naked muscle man without adding in a woman for the camera to ogle. (Has to keep his masculinity in check after all.)

Thundercats worries me how that design and/or costuming would turn out. :lol:

[DarkFell]

He-Man and She-Ra were siblings in the cartoon. So there better not be any naughty action coming from those two...

[IndigoErth]

He-Man and She-Ra were siblings in the cartoon. So there better not be any naughty action coming from those two...
Lets just hope the film makers would research at least enough to know that. And not just, say, look at pictures. Can't imagine the media drama if they screwed that up... but it would be epic.

[Metalwolf]

Don't worry, he'll probably retch-con it so they aren't. Or... he'll keep them as siblings and just do it for the 'shock value.' :ohwell:

[Leo656]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1yik2cn4g1qfdhs0o1_500.gif

[Candy Kappa]

Megan Fox as She-Ra, a CGI'd Shia LaBeouf as He-Man.

together they must conquer true love to unlock the awesome power of the Sword of He. And by love I mean dry humping sex...

And Orko ate the whole plate, THE WHOLE PLATE!

[Hannurdock]

:lol: I had a kids' storybook once where they were fighting a group of bad guys, and Leo does some kinda move, and Raph calls him out, like, "That wasn't ninjitsu! That was karate!" or something like that. :lol: Your comment made me think of it.

I remember reading that line!

[Leo656]

Yeah, I gotta find those. I had four of them, they came out around 1989, I used to read them all the time but haven't in years. I can't even remember the titles, except for "Six-Guns And Shurikens", where they found a Genie's lamp and accidentally went back in time to the Old West. There was another one where they helped April try to find Atlantis and tried to stop Shredder from discovering it, along with its "advanced technology' or some such... one where they had to fight Shredder in outer space... and the one I mentioned earlier, where they teamed up with a team of martial arts-trained squirrels to find a bunch of golden acorns or something. :lol: They were great.

I loved those books because although being set ostensibly in the cartoon universe, the storytelling was much more "mature" and a little bit "darker" than what one might expect from a product based on the OT. Like, "damn" and "hell" were fairly prevalent throughout all four books, with references to the Turtles or other characters using other swear words that were left up to the reader's imagination, and the fight scenes were written as less slapstick and more violent. Each book had several illustrations, done in the OT art style, and many OT characters like Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang and Leatherhead showed up.

They were really neat. Perfect for an 8-year-old kid who loved TMNT but preferred the first film's tone over the cartoon by then. Those books were like a mix of both. Really good stuff.

EDIE: Was able to find a picture of the cover of "Six-Guns and Shurikens" but not the others yet.
http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/256/1/c/tmnt_storybook_by_turtleprime-d5elmvv.jpg
Ahh, this takes me back.

EDIT 2: Apparently, the other books were "Red Herrings", "Sky High", and "Buried Treasure", all written by Dave Morris, and there were other ones I didn't have. Son of a... now I gotta hunt them down.

[BubblyShell22]

Those books sound awesome, Leo. The most I remember is we had a Ninja Turtles coloring book that was based on "Rat Trap" where the Mousers attacked Splinter.

And, no, I don't want Bay to touch anything else. He's just tainted.

[Leo656]

Found 'em all on Amazon pretty easy if you want 'em, including the two I never had. I know what I'm getting for myself soon. :D

http://www.amazon.com/Herrings-Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles/dp/0440403901

I remember a ton of the kids' storybooks and coloring books and whatnot from back then. A lot of it was set in the OT universe but was actually of much better storytelling quality. I credit a lot of the "expanded media" for keeping me invested when I was kind of getting bored of the cartoon right around then.

[Hannurdock]

I have them all, I'll post pictures of the covers.

I've had a look but the only reference to karate in Buried Treasure was about them all trying different forms of martial arts. Raph calls out Donny who claims to be using karate techniques but ends up using a judo one instead. I'll post it below;



BURIED TREASURE - Page 69

"Nice moves, dude," Leonardo called out as he knocked down a kidnapper with the flat of his sword.

"Don't use your guns, idiots!" shrieked the leader to his men. "You're most likely to hit one of your own team. Show these freaks the karate I taught you."

"Karate!" cried Donatello happily. "That's our kind of rumble." He threw his quarterstaff like a javelin and it hit a kidnapper right in the midriff. He went flying backwards with his arms windmilling wildly and bowled over another two. They lay in a heap, groaning, as the leader raced forward and angrily launched a karate kick at Donatello's head. Donatello twisted round and leant forward slightly so that the kick landed on the back of his shell. As his opponent's foot skidded across the shell, he turned and grabbed the outstretched leg and threw the man over his shoulder. He struck the marble floor of the hall with terrific impact and slumped unconscious.

"Aww, you cheated, Don," said Raphael as he punched his own opponent. "That was more like judo than karate."

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b61/hannurdock/8cd84463-c70b-4754-9f0b-130803a3a465.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/hannurdock/media/8cd84463-c70b-4754-9f0b-130803a3a465.jpg.html)

[Leo656]

Good show, much obliged. :)

I still give myself credit for working solely from memory. I have not even seen those books since about 1995 and not actually read them since maybe 1993, and other than "in storage", I have ZERO idea where they are! So I think I did pretty good, considering, eh?

And you have them all. WITH covers. Jealous. I got 'em from my sister, who worked at a bookstore, and she would "accidentally" tear covers off of books so she could get them for free for me. One of the best surprise gifts I ever got. :)

And any of those books put to film would be better than anything we're getting now. Y'know... just to be semi-on-topic. 8)

[Hannurdock]

Good show, much obliged. :)

I still give myself credit for working solely from memory. I have not even seen those books since about 1995 and not actually read them since maybe 1993, and other than "in storage", I have ZERO idea where they are! So I think I did pretty good, considering, eh?

And you have them all. WITH covers. Jealous. I got 'em from my sister, who worked at a bookstore, and she would "accidentally" tear covers off of books so she could get them for free for me. One of the best surprise gifts I ever got. :)

I thought you were right! I remembered it too, although not correctly. But, you weren't far off. It was fun reading them again, the book is much more maturely written than the latest offering from the new movie.

The movie screwed me up. I thought I would give it a chance, saw it on a crappy copy and hated it with a vengeance, then loved it on the big screen. Still not sure what to make of it overall. I love the action on the IMAX though. Very well done. There were some unforgivable moments in the storyline and then some unforgettable action scenes which really got my heart racing.

They should just stick with a dark theme with some irony for humour. It would work better than stalker humour and .... pepperoni.

[Leo656]

I liked the fight scene with Leatherhead in "Sky High" when they were in that cramped sewer tunnel, and Splinter smacks him in the face with a kusari-gama or whatever it was called. :lol: Also, in "Red Herrings", Donnie riding a torpedo aimed at a cruise ship trying to shut it down with his trusty screwdriver was pretty memorable.

Tons of great stuff in those. I'm just gonna get newer copies, along with the two I never got. Can't wait to read 'em again. Apparently that writer is very prolific and acclaimed. I think it speaks to TMNT's popularity at the time that even these niche little off-shoot products were entirely NOT half-assed, and they actually took steps to make sure they were of quality. No joke, at the time, I spent more hours re-reading those books than I did watching the reruns I'd seen a hundred times. Just seemed like such a perfect blend of the OT and the first movie.

Thanks for helping me with the stroll down memory lane! :)

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, based on that snipped Hannurdock posted, I think any of those books would make a great movie and would probably be a lot better than what we're getting now.

[Leo656]

They apparently cost literally pennies. You should pick 'em up. It'll soften the blow. :)

[Hannurdock]

I liked the fight scene with Leatherhead in "Sky High" when they were in that cramped sewer tunnel, and Splinter smacks him in the face with a kusari-gama or whatever it was called. :lol: Also, in "Red Herrings", Donnie riding a torpedo aimed at a cruise ship trying to shut it down with his trusty screwdriver was pretty memorable.

Tons of great stuff in those. I'm just gonna get newer copies, along with the two I never got. Can't wait to read 'em again. Apparently that writer is very prolific and acclaimed. I think it speaks to TMNT's popularity at the time that even these niche little off-shoot products were entirely NOT half-assed, and they actually took steps to make sure they were of quality. No joke, at the time, I spent more hours re-reading those books than I did watching the reruns I'd seen a hundred times. Just seemed like such a perfect blend of the OT and the first movie.

Thanks for helping me with the stroll down memory lane! :)


Red Herrings torpedo scene coming up. I can touch type. Probably made a few mistakes, but this is the scene from the book.



RED HERRINGS - Page 26

Way out at sea, the Turtles had spotted the torpedo on their miniature radio. "It's either a torpedo or a shark who hasn't switched to decaffeinated," Raphael said, watching the blip on the screen set between his scooter handlebars. "What are we going to do about it, dudes?"

"I'm going in close," yelled Donatello over the roar of the scooter engines. "You three hang around here to pick up survivors if my plan doesn't work."

"Hey, Don, wait -!" shouted Leonardo. But it was too late: Donatello had already veered off and was now on a direct collision course with the torpedo.

"Oh boy, what's he up to?" gasped Michaelangelo.

"Hardly daring to breathe, they watched as Donatello steered his water scooter in beside the torpedo and then leaped across on to the back of it. Driverless, the scooter sped off across the water. Donatello, meanwhile, was having to hang on for dear life as the torpedo carried him inexorably nearer to the Masefield. A white spray was gushing back over him and threatened to fling him off the speeding torpedo. Inch by agonising inch, he crawled forward until he was just behind the warhead. He fumbled at his belt, blinded by the spray, and managed to find his screwdriver.

"Don!" screamed April from the ship's rail. "Jump clear!" She had her hands pressed to her mouth in horror, but she had completely forgotten the danger that she and the others were in. All she could think of now was that, when the torpedo exploded, Donatello would be sitting right on top of it!

With the surf chopping past him, Donatello could not hear April's shouts nor the warnings of his brothers. With gritted teeth, he set to work removing the access panel behind the warhead. He spared the time to glance up. The Masefield was turning about slowly, but the torpedo would definitely hit her. Donatello estimated there were about twenty seconds left before impact. He pulled off the access cover and tore at the wiring inside.

Leonardo gunned his scooter engine, but he could not catch up with the torpedo now. It was skimming along the waves, with Donaello riding on its back like a cowboy on a bucking bronto. "Don," he called hopelessly over the noise of the scooter, "it's too late. You'll only get yourself killed!"

Fifteen seconds to go. Donatello was a genius at electronics and any other sort of gadgetry. Pulling two wires loose, he twisted them together and adjusted a capacitor. The torpedo gave a violent shudder then began to change course.

On board the Masefield, the entire ship's company was gathered along the rail. They all held their breath and watched in awe. The only sound was the soft whirr of the TV camera following Donatello's every move.

"Go on, turn, dammit!" snarled Donatello. He gave the capacitor another twist, then wrenched it out and struck the intertial guidance system manually. "There's never a monkey wrench handy when you need one ..." he grunted to himself.

"It's still going to hit! gasped Dr. Gascoigne, her voice no more than a choked whisper. Everyone began to step back from the rail - not that that would do any good. The torpedo could blow the whole side off the ship.

Only a few seconds remained. "So much for sublety!" said Donatello in exasperation."Hii-YAA!" He slammed his fist down in a powerful karate punch against the casing around the steering gyro. The torpedo tilted violently, flinging him off into the water, then turned to one side and scraped past within centimetres of the ship. A great cheer went up from everyone on board.

"Wow!" said April. "What a rescue - and we got it all on film!"

There was a thud on the deck behind her. She turned and sighed; the cameraman had fainted.

The Turtles were bringing their scooters in towards the Masefield scouring the water for any sign of Donatello. "He might have hit his head when he jumped," said Michaelangelo nervously.

[BubblyShell22]

Now THAT scene would be great in a movie.

And, Leo, that's awesome, but I'm not one for ordering stuff online. Kind of leery about stuff like that, but it's okay. I just read really good fan fiction to soften the blow of the atrocity we're more than likely going to get.

[Leo656]

Holy SH*T, I needed that today. :) Thaaaaaank you! That really takes me back. WOW. Just as good as I remembered it being. Gooood stuuuuuff. :tgrin:

Bubbly: I could maybe get two copies of each and send the extras to you if you wanted. I don't think it's right that some people haven't seen these. :)

[BubblyShell22]

Thanks for the offer, Leo, but I'll pass. Not comfortable giving out my address to people and stuff like that.

[Leo656]

Fair enough, just doing my Good Deed For The Day. :) All the same, let me know if you ever change your mind.

[BubblyShell22]

Well, thanks for that. I probably won't change my mind, but there you go. Thanks anyway, dude.

[Davetello]

I like how it's slipped in that they're having a steak dinner with martinis, despite it being completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Pretentious bell jockeys.

[Leo656]

"...So anyways, when the opening night numbers came in, I was just getting done taking a shower... you know, hanging up my ivory back-scratcher, drying myself off with a couple towels made from the hide of baby seals..." :lol:

[Davetello]

Absolute parasites. They don't deserve to be able to pay for a 'steak dinner with martinis' in some snazzy restaurant.

[BubblyShell22]

I laughed when I heard they were drinking martinis. It explains a lot about what went wrong with the film.

[Commenter 42]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1yik2cn4g1qfdhs0o1_500.gif

Ditto.

Kids these days...MAN. I'm glad you can't distinguish between He-Man and Connan. Nice Jab. Revel in your ignorance. It's such an endearing character trait.

[Leo656]

And the fact someone would pretend they'd want to see Bay tackle that or any of those other mentioned properties... ((shudder))

Never happen. Know why? Because the day I read the words "Michael Bay" and "He-Man" in the same press release, that's the day I track that motherf*cker down and send him face-first into a wood chipper. Promise.

EDIT: On the idea of Bay doing Thundercats, my wife just now chimed in, "How would that work? Thundercats doesn't involve explosions." I love her so much. :lol:

[Venom]

I'm curious how they'd do Thundercats. :D

He-Man, I think we recently had a movie about that already.. oh wait, that's Conan the barbarian. I never distinguish the two, it seems like the same thing to me.

Never heard of Voltron though.

We did, Dolph Lundgren was He-Man.

Edit: Nevermind, didn't see the word "recently".

[DarkFell]

They apparently cost literally pennies. You should pick 'em up. It'll soften the blow. :)
And thank you both for reminding me about those books. I bought one at one of those book fairs that my elementary and middle schools used to do for the students. I think I got Sky High. God only knows what happened to that book. It was probably me reading that book until it fell apart. Since there is a Half Price book store in my neck of the woods, I might have to go book hunting there before too long.

[Leo656]

We did, Dolph Lundgren was He-Man

And it was glooooooooorious. :lol: For so many years, I'm like, "This is great. All this guy needs is a cape"... and they read my mind! :lol:

And thank you both for reminding me about those books. I bought one at one of those book fairs that my elementary and middle schools used to do for the students. I think I got Sky High. God only knows what happened to that book. It was probably me reading that book until it fell apart. Since there is a Half Price book store in my neck of the woods, I might have to go book hunting there before too long.

Happy to help. There's always Amazon, too. That's the first thing I checked. :)

[DarkFell]

True. I'll open up an Amazon account eventually. Guess I like picking up stuff in person vs. buying online. Although it would be better wisdom to buy online anyway. :\

[IndigoErth]

Saw this asked on another forum:
would the movie "the Bible" by Michael Bay be any good?
Now I'm not a theist of any sort, but were it true I have to admit the prospect of Bay pissing he/she/it off is kind of appealing.

[LeoRaph]

Yeah, the He-Man movie was fun. Surprisingly dark movie for a kid's franchise back in 87 but maaaaaaaaaan Frank Langella makes that for me.

[Leo656]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g298/PJC0887/Skeletor.jpg

SKELETOR: Leave them alone. He-Man is my slave. As long as I let them live, he is bound by his word. Let them rot...... ((laughs)) .........Let them rot.

SKELETOR: Witness this moment, He-Man! This moment where the powers of Greyskull will become MINE for eternity! Our life-long battle is ending at last in the only way it could! When the Great Eye opens... the people of Eternia will see you kneel before me, just before you DIE!
HE-MAN: I'll never kneel to YOU!
SKELETOR: YES, YOU WILL! YES, you will! Or I shall wreak unforgettable harm upon you!

SKELETOR: Do you hear?! The Alpha... and the Omega! DEATH and REBIRTH! And as you die... so will I be Reborn!

SKELETOR: NOW! I, Skeletor, am MASTER of the Universe! YES! Yes... I feel it, the power... FILLS me! YES, I feel the universe within me! I am... I am a part of the cosmos! Its energy flows... flows through me! Of what consequence are you now? This planet, these people, they are NOTHING to me! The universe is power - pure, unstoppable POWER! And I am that force! I am that POWER! ...KNEEL BEFORE YOUR MASTER! ...Fool! You are no longer my equal! I am MORE than man! More than LIFE! I... am... a... GOD! Now. You... will... KNEEEEEEEEL!!!

SKELETOR: YOU! You will no longer stand between me and my destiny!
HE-MAN: But I WILL! I told you, it's always been between US!
SKELETOR: I ache to smash you out of existence! To drive your cursed face from my memories FOREVER!
HE-MAN: ENOUGH TALK!
SKELETOR: YES! LET THIS BE OUR FINAL BATTLE!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I... can't readily recall movie villain dialogue that's honestly better than this. Frank Langella is a straight-up pimp.

[LeoRaph]

That's it, I gotta get the dvd after Christmas! Soooo many good moments, brings back a lot of memories.

Argh crap seems the local dvd store here doesn't have it at all :tgrumble: have to ebay it instead...I don't know why I never bought it in the first place...

[Leo656]

It should come free in the mail to every household along with those little samples of Tide. :lol: Ought'a be a law.

[Commenter 42]

Saw this asked on another forum:

Now I'm not a theist of any sort, but were it true I have to admit the prospect of Bay pissing he/she/it off is kind of appealing.

Google Iron Sky Trailer, the second coming. I'd post it here but, well, you know...:roll:

[newhire13]

I've been saying that I feel like the movie that hit theaters was not the movie they originally made and this really supports that theory.

[Leo656]

And I'VE been saying they didn't have a real "script" to speak of, and... I kinda think more than ever that that's true, also. Or they DID have one and just ignored most of it, like the first Wolverine movie.

[TrickOrTreater]

And I'VE been saying they didn't have a real "script" to speak of, and... I kinda think more than ever that that's true, also. Or they DID have one and just ignored most of it, like the first Wolverine movie.

It's amazing how, on one end, you have a movie like Iron Man where they barely had any script at all and still managed to produce a fantastic movie that launched something almost unparalleled in cinema.

Then, you have this movie that not only goes through several complete scripts, most of them bad, and produces a, not so shockingly, bad movie.

Just fascinating to me.

[Leo656]

To be fair, as long as the suit looked cool, people were gonna be real, real forgiving about Iron Man, no matter what else happened. :lol: But yeah it's pretty good.

[pennydreadful]

Apparently, the other books were "Red Herrings", "Sky High", and "Buried Treasure", all written by Dave Morris, and there were other ones I didn't have. Son of a... now I gotta hunt them down.

I had "Red Herrings" as a wee kidlet! And also the Ninja Turtles joke book... which had the most godawful jokes known to mankind.

https://www.brotherhoodbooks.org.au/uploaded/thumbnails/db_file_img_103723_265xauto.jpg

[Leo656]

I wonder if any of the jokes were re-used for the little joke books that came with various TMNT merchandise back in the day, specifically, as I recall, the dress-up kits.

Those jokes were even worse than the ones Bill Hicks stole from Denis Leary. :tcool:

[Powder]

"Laugh Like a Drain Dudes!"

What in the turquoise f*ck does that mean?

[IndigoErth]

Drain? Is this 80s/90s humor I've forgotten?

[Hannurdock]

Leatherhead scene from Sky High;



SKY HIGH - Page 30

Splinter pressed back as Leatherhead's massive jaws gaped wide. It wasn't that he was afraid, but Leatherhead had appalling bad breath. "Who?" he asked.

"I am Leatherhead!" announced the crocodile-man in a gutteral voice.

"We fought him once before, master," explained Raphael. "He used to be a human, but he was changed into this form by a transmo ... by a transmat ... oh, by some weird gadget."

Leatherhead gave a great roar that rattled the wall of the pipe. "Turtles," he said. "I remember you. You are enemies of the Shredder."

"Yeah, that's right, buster," said Michaelangelo, leaning past Splinter, "and you don't much like the Shredder after he tried to trick you, as I recall. Well, he's right here and -"

"I know that!" growled Leatherhead. "He brought me along to help him, but he told me to hide down here in the sewer when I'm not needed. Now it looks like that was a lucky choice of hiding place, because it brought you five straight into my jaws."

Splinter barely flinched as Leatherhead's grinning snout pressed forward. "Your attitude hardly seems rational," he said calmly. "Why work for the Shredder if he tricked you before?"

"He's promised to turn me back into a human being," snapped Leatherhead.

"And you believed him?" said Raphael. "Boy, Leatherhead is hardly the word: you should be called Clothhead. You've got less brains in you than a leather satchel!"

"Yeah, you make Bebop and Rocksteady look like winners of Mastermind," put in Donatello.

"I know what you're trying to do," said Leatherhead with a huge cold grin. "You're trying to make me lose my temper so I do something dumb; but it won't work .... Hmmm, now I must say that I'd rather have turtle for starters and then rat to finish, but I guess I'll just have to take you as I find you."

"Let me past, master," pleaded Michaelangelo, anxious for his teacher's safety.

"I am in no danger, thank you, Michaelangelo," replied Splinter evenly, drawing a kusari-gama from his robe. This was no practice weapon, but the real thing. He brandished the shaft, which ended in a scythe-blade and allowed the iron ball to swing freely on its chain.

"Huh!" snorted Leatherhead. "What're you going to do with that, tunnel rat? It won't even pierce my hide."

Splinter just smiled, "Nor do I want it to. I get no pleasure from inflicting injury on dumb animals."

At this, Leatherhead gave a roar of rage. Suddenly Splinter jerked back his hand and the kusari-gama ball swung round to strike Leatherhead right on the snout. It did not seriously hurt him, but it caused his eyes to water with the pain.

"Crocodile tears?" said Splinter. "Maybe you're upset at the thought of what an ugly blighter you are."

This taunt was the last straw for Leatherhead. Bellowing ferociously, he opened him jaws and lunged forward, intending to bite Splinter in half. But the ninja master was as agile as he was wise, and he effortlessly dodged the clumsy attack of his tear-blinded opponent. Leatherhead's teeth snapped shut on thin air, and the next instant Splinter had wound the kusari-gama chain securely around his snout.

"That will hold him," Splinter told his pupils. "Crocodils have great strength when it comes to biting, but the muscles for opening the jaw are much weaker."

"Wow, master," said Michaelangelo, peering past him at the struggling saurian, "where'd you learn that? Is it part of your advanced ninja education?"

"No, Michaelangelo, I actually saw it in an old Tarzan film that was on TV last week."

[pennydreadful]

Those jokes were even worse than the ones Bill Hicks stole from Denis Leary. :tcool:

Don't make me come over there, mister...

"Laugh Like a Drain Dudes!"

What in the turquoise f*ck does that mean?

I never understood what it meant either!!! :lol:

[BubblyShell22]

Saw this asked on another forum:

Now I'm not a theist of any sort, but were it true I have to admit the prospect of Bay pissing he/she/it off is kind of appealing.

I'm not a theist either, but I'd love to see the backlash from the religious community if this was made.

[Candy Kappa]

Saw this asked on another forum:

Now I'm not a theist of any sort, but were it true I have to admit the prospect of Bay pissing he/she/it off is kind of appealing.

I donno. I can see Bay do some stories from the Old Testament/Torah, Imagine when Yhaweh murders 100.000.000 Ethiopians...

...But, with explosions!

Yeah, it wouldn't be a serious movie, but it could be fitting with the Bible action that's going with the Russel Crowe as Noah movie and now the all white Egyptian Exodus featuring Batman.

[Prowler]

Hardly surprising. The development of this movie was a flippin' mess from the beginning to the end. First the Turtles were gonna be aliens, then Shredder was gonna be white, etc.

[Xiewin]

So now it's bay fault that movie turned from a brooding action movie to a cheesy kiddie one?

ughh Michael Bay...

[Leo656]

Hannurdock, thanks so much for that. I'd almost forgotten how awesome Splinter's portrayal in those books was. :lol:

Next check I'm picking these up again. :)

penny: PBBBBBBBBBBTH! :tgrin:

[ScrewtheMirageTMNT]

Eh, the beloved first tmnt movie pandered to little kids.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Eh, the beloved first tmnt movie pandered to little kids.

The first film had little kids smoking, Raphael getting put into a Coma, and a flashback where people are murdered and Splinter's Ear gets sliced off....that's even more than the 'supposedly Gritty/more serious' new film.

[ScrewtheMirageTMNT]

The first film had little kids smoking, Raphael getting put into a Coma, and a flashback where people are murdered and Splinter's Ear gets sliced off....that's even more than the 'supposedly Gritty/more serious' new film.

Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that parts of the movie were made for kids. It has an un-even tone just like the new tmnt movie. The death of hamato yoshi is tame, as for tang shen she was already dead by the time he got home, we never saw her death because it happened off screen. I can't take their deaths too seriously because of the direction.

[Leo656]

I honestly thought you got banned after last night's shenanigans. Pity.

As to your "points"... reach a little farther, Reed Richards, I don't think you hit bottom yet.

[TrickOrTreater]

I honestly thought you got banned after last night's shenanigans. Pity.

As to your "points"... reach a little farther, Reed Richards, I don't think you hit bottom yet.

What a random place to post it too. I don't think anybody was even talking about the first movie in this thread.

[Leo656]

"I didn't see Tang Shen get sliced open like a fish, with blood spraying everywhere. Movie sucked."

The hell.

[TrickOrTreater]

"I didn't see Tang Shen get sliced open like a fish, with blood spraying everywhere. Movie sucked."

The hell.

Ha! I mean it was clearly said just to get a rise out of somebody.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I know better than to feed the beast, I'm just sick and have absolutely nothing else to do.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that parts of the movie were made for kids.

only thing i am saying in response to this...different times..different movies

you are comparing 1990 kids to 2014 kids

[Leo656]

I don't even think the original movie was "made for kids". It really doesn't feel that way, to me. At all.

It feels like, "How can we actually make the best movie we can make," and then, when it was necessary, they maybe toned it down a little bit here or there, or put in an extra joke or something.

It's pretty clear, to me anyway, that that was their approach back then, while the approach of the new film was straight-up pandering.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

I don't even think the original movie was "made for kids". It really doesn't feel that way, to me. At all..

this is really it though, the movie wasnt "Made for kids"...sure they probably knew Kids would go see it but they didnt cater to them..it was just a happy connection


Muppets 1970 was the same way, it wasnt really made with kids in mind, it was just a movie based on a popular property with moments spinkled for the little ones

[Leo656]

Yeah man. The best flicks have something for everyone. Being "appropriate" for kids and being "made" for kids are two different things entirely.

Most things "Made For Kids" suck hard, because the entire approach of making anything primarily for One Audience is bullsh*t.

[BubblyShell22]

Exactly. The original movie had a lot of dark moments in it sprinkled with humor. Hell, even the Nick series has dark moments. Just look at "The Gauntlet" with their first fight with Shredder and how brutal that was or "Showdown" where Splinter pretty much tells Leo that he may have to sacrifice himself or someone else to save the world. "The Invasion" had Leo getting beaten to a freakin' pulp. So, yeah, not all of that is for kids.

[Leo656]

I also think some folks forget what it was like when they were kids. I, personally, wasn't satisfied watching "kids movies". Oh, sure, I watched and enjoyed 'em, but I also watched other stuff. For the longest time my favorite movie of all time was Ghostbusters, since I was two years old. Some of that is SO not for kids, like the scene where Ray has the dream about the ghost. But it went over my and every other kids head until later on, and in the meantime it was just a Great Movie that kids could watch with their parents or even by themselves and still enjoy it. It wasn't "made for" kids, but it was mostly "appropriate" since it wasn't explicit.

I also watched plenty of stuff that wasn't in any way meant for kids, like the Freddy movies, Young Guns, stuff like that. I liked them. Every kid is different but none of that stuff hurt me. In fact, since I watched stuff like that MORE, I was always very aware that most "kids movies" were treating me like I was an idiot, or "fragile", and I didn't like it. My favorite "kids movie" was probably Roger Rabbit, and that's only a "kids movie" because half the cast are cartoons.

Other than Disney stuff and Ernest movies, which I do still watch and enjoy, I never cared much for "kids movies" and I certainly never preferred them just because they were "made for me". I just watched Good Movies. I didn't appreciate being talked down to or having my hand held. I think most kids actually feel that way, it's just what they're "allowed" to see that's the issue.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

and thats the other side of the coin problem..by saying "Its for kids" you already limit your story , you draw a line that you cant cross and you set a bar of what hollywood considers kids worthy


its something i hope the power rangers movie doesnt do..ignore the kids and just make the damn movie...Kids will see it regardless


Leo, i feel me and you had the same type of movie upbringing...my dad never said i only had to watch kid movies....sure if it was to heavy graphic he wanted to be there with me so i understood but i wasnt limited to Disney and other kid flicks

[Warboss74]

Steve Barron mentioned in his AMA that he was filming a much darker film and requested an extra week of filming to finish it.

[Leo656]

I was also exposed to a lot of "grown up" things at an extremely young age, so it was clearly understood by all involved that if none of that affected me very much, movies sure weren't going to.

You grow up better when you're not sheltered. Someday, kids grow up. Every kid I knew who "weren't allowed" to see a PG-13 movie until they were actually 13, or an R movie until they were 18, became a socially-awkward nerdcase, with almost no exceptions. It's like being "protected" actually stunted their development in some very real ways, and now they're overly-sensitive adults.

Kids are resilient. They don't get "warped" by violence or bad language, unless there's actually something already wrong with them. Rather, they just go, "Well, that's the world," and go do something else.

[BubblyShell22]

I also think some folks forget what it was like when they were kids. I, personally, wasn't satisfied watching "kids movies". Oh, sure, I watched and enjoyed 'em, but I also watched other stuff. For the longest time my favorite movie of all time was Ghostbusters, since I was two years old. Some of that is SO not for kids, like the scene where Ray has the dream about the ghost. But it went over my and every other kids head until later on, and in the meantime it was just a Great Movie that kids could watch with their parents or even by themselves and still enjoy it. It wasn't "made for" kids, but it was mostly "appropriate" since it wasn't explicit.

I also watched plenty of stuff that wasn't in any way meant for kids, like the Freddy movies, Young Guns, stuff like that. I liked them. Every kid is different but none of that stuff hurt me. In fact, since I watched stuff like that MORE, I was always very aware that most "kids movies" were treating me like I was an idiot, or "fragile", and I didn't like it. My favorite "kids movie" was probably Roger Rabbit, and that's only a "kids movie" because half the cast are cartoons.

Other than Disney stuff and Ernest movies, which I do still watch and enjoy, I never cared much for "kids movies" and I certainly never preferred them just because they were "made for me". I just watched Good Movies. I didn't appreciate being talked down to or having my hand held. I think most kids actually feel that way, it's just what they're "allowed" to see that's the issue.

Exactly right. Everyone's different. I preferred kids movies because that's what I liked to see and I still love to watch Disney movies and stuff like that. But not every person is like that, and that's what people don't get. Everyone has their preferences of what they want to see, and if it's not in the movie, why bother with it?

[Leo656]

I really like Disney movies because they're fun, but if taken entirely literally they have some really questionable messages, like, "You have to be pretty for anyone to love you," or, "A girl isn't fully complete without her Prince Charming", and that's problematic. I think that's a problem when some parents, not all but some, think they can just plop their kids in front of a "kids movie" like it's okay, and never actually teach them anything, as if as long as it's a cartoon and there's songs it won't "hurt" them.

There's nothing at all wrong with Disney movies, my wife and I are huge Disney marks, but if a kid grew up using those movies as a Guide For Life instead of just something to watch for entertainment, they're gonna grow up with some serious issues. They need to also be exposed to different things so they have a sense of perspective.

[BubblyShell22]

Exactly. Same goes with celebrity culture and how so many teenagers are enamored with boy bands and how hot the guys look when real life's a lot more complicated than that and it's not all about the looks. Again, it's the parent's job to do that and if they don't, their kids are in for a world of hurt. Luckily, I never saw Disney movies like that in my eyes. I liked Snow White for the dwarfs and the animals and Sleeping Beauty for the fairies. To hell with the princes.

[Leo656]

:lol: Well I also had those same stories as books, storybook-and-tape sets (Remember those?! :tgrin:), seen other cartoon versions of stuff like Grimm's Fairy Tales, all that, so I was more than familiar with other versions of those same fairy tales. Most of them were much more "mature" than the Disney stuff, and I had to adjust to that. Seeing characters get killed or whatever in much more graphic ways than the "safe" Disney versions, etc. So even just by seeing three or four different versions of the same basic story, I was getting that much-needed "perspective".

Really, as screwed up as they were my parents really set me up with a great head start. They just kinda lost interest halfway through. :lol:

[Cipher]

TMNT is and has always been lighthearted ALWAYS. This movie has a darker tone with lightheartedness. You keep Say that Bay was there and just said hey Add some freaking fart jokes Are you serious right now. GOD your insufferable dude You act as if your this all knowing Big shot
While it began as, and has been, in the mainstream consciousness, lighthearted, that's by no means the only level the property can work on, as evidenced by large, large patches of the Mirage series after #7 or so.

Which I think is important because those are the only times the material has actually bothered to engage the question of "Okay, but why am I reading a story about four giant mutant turtles?" on a level other than "lol because silliness." Which consequently led to some really great writing.

[Leo656]

As I've been discussing in another thread, while there's absolutely a lighthearted element inherent to the very concept of TMNT, there are ALSO a great deal of very real, very powerful themes/issues, that have presented themselves in every single version of the material, from Mirage to Archie and everything else that's ever been done with it. Even the "abysmal" second and third movies still win points by dealing with some of those things, even if they didn't go very far or execute those ideas all that well.

Not going to say the new movie didn't tackle some of those themes as well. They did, but not very well. But just like the second and third film, that's only *because* they were hamstrung by the idea that TMNT is "Silly Kids' Stuff". No, it really isn't, or at least, it shouldn't be. That's under-selling it.

[Cipher]

As I've been discussing in another thread, while there's absolutely a lighthearted element inherent to the very concept of TMNT, there are ALSO a great deal of very real, very powerful themes/issues, that have presented themselves in every single version of the material, from Mirage to Archie and everything else that's ever been done with it.
Ah, yeah. There's an inherent comic-book silliness to it even Mirage at its most serious never drops (because that wouldn't be engaging with that question in the way I meant above). But it massages it into a tone of alienating strangeness, or a platform for allowing the kinds of anything-goes, occasionally winking stories they need to get at real pathos.

But, yeah, the best strikes somewhere in that balance, in the way that it uses both sides to actually grapple with that underlying question. It has to acknowledge, 1) Yes, this is silly, but 2) Here's why it's set up this way and here's why you should care. And there are great answers for that second bit if the creators behind the project choose to care/engage with their material in a way that goes beyond coasting on recognition.

No creator going into a Turtles project who doesn't stop to ask, "Okay, in a vacuum, why would I choose to tell a story about four mutant ninja turtles?" is ever going to produce anything great.

[Commenter 42]

No creator going into a Turtles project who doesn't stop to ask, "Okay, in a vacuum, why would I choose to tell a story about four mutant ninja turtles?" is ever going to produce anything great.

OMG, PREACH! :o

Perfectly said, you nailed it. I agreed with the entire post, but just felt this bared repeating.

[Xav]

"Laugh Like a Drain Dudes!"

What in the turquoise f*ck does that mean?It means to laugh loudly.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/224000.html

[IndigoErth]

Interesting, never heard that before. Now, why NYC Turtles are using a "UK phrase, from around the time of WWII," I'll never know. lol Where's the publisher located.

[Leo656]

I've noticed that a few of the TMNT licensed books from back in the day were produced in the UK, that probably has something to do with it.

[Davetello]

Exactly. Same goes with celebrity culture and how so many teenagers are enamored with boy bands and how hot the guys look when real life's a lot more complicated than that and it's not all about the looks. Again, it's the parent's job to do that and if they don't, their kids are in for a world of hurt. Luckily, I never saw Disney movies like that in my eyes. I liked Snow White for the dwarfs and the animals and Sleeping Beauty for the fairies. To hell with the princes.

It's celebrity culture, though. The thing is that there are lots of ugly guys in boy bands. They're just marketed in such a way that weak, easily indoctrinated teenage girls believe that a guy HAS to be good looking simply because he's in a boyband.

Look at One Direction. Apart from the Asian (who is good looking enough to be a model, admittedly) none of them are remotely good looking. I see lots of better looking guys in the street every day yet they don't have females falling at their feet. It's ALL about the fame. Teenage girls would fancy Franck Ribery if he joined a boy band. Their attraction to pop stars really has absolutely nothing to do with how the guys actually look - it's the manufactured aspect of the group, the feeling is 'sisterhood' and shared identity by sharing a love of a pop band with their friends etc. The guys in the group are just the vehicle to make that happen.

I seen Grimm Fairy Tales mentioned. I read some of that. It's not of great quality, really, but it's worth a read when you wanna read something light and mindless.

"I really like Disney movies because they're fun, but if taken entirely literally they have some really questionable messages, like, "You have to be pretty for anyone to love you," or, "A girl isn't fully complete without her Prince Charming", and that's problematic. I think that's a problem when some parents, not all but some, think they can just plop their kids in front of a "kids movie" like it's okay, and never actually teach them anything, as if as long as it's a cartoon and there's songs it won't "hurt" them.

There's nothing at all wrong with Disney movies, my wife and I are huge Disney marks, but if a kid grew up using those movies as a Guide For Life instead of just something to watch for entertainment, they're gonna grow up with some serious issues. They need to also be exposed to different things so they have a sense of perspective."

The scary thing is that a lot of grown women actually do think that way. In their minds they are princesses who deserve to be adored and pursued. I've taken great pleasure in putting some of these sorts in their place in the past. Idiots.

[BubblyShell22]

Yep, I've known girls who act that way about guys all of the time, and it's just ridiculous how shallow they really are.

Don't get me wrong, I was a fan of certain boy bands and still do like some of the same ones I did before, but I've grown up and realize that not all boy bands are awesome. One Direction sucks, though my mom loves to tease me that I secretly like them. I have no problem admitting I do like Five Seconds of Summer though.

[Davetello]

You really have to wonder about the mentality of a teenage girl who will willingly devote her entire life to a **** pop band just because she's deluded enough to think some of the guys in the group are good looking. There's something seriously sick about someone - male or female - screaming in the presence of another human being just because they MIGHT be physically attractive. It's bizarre.

It always baffled me. I always think to myself "there's probably far smarter, more talented and better looking guy living next door to you or attending your school, but he's invisible to you because you're so caught up in this celebrity worshipping nonsense. You're so caught up in putting a flock of talentless little weasels on a plateau they really, really don't deserve to be put upon".

It really blows my mind. It's something I truly struggle to empathise with. I mean even female celebrities I think are physically attractive - I couldn't care less about them as people. I certainly wouldn't create slavish twitter accounts glorifying them every minute of the day and threatening anyone who dislikes them. What sort of pathetic thought process is that?

Never heard of Five Seconds of Summer.

[BubblyShell22]

That's okay that you've never heard of them. They're Australian and I think they're very talented. But that's the thing. I look at the songs and if I like them or not. I don't care about looks at all and don't feel I need to. I did back in the day because I wasn't in a relationship and had no idea how things like that worked, but now I've grown up and know a lot more about what REAL love is and I'll take that any day over falling in love with a boy band for their looks.

Back on topic, I just love how they realized they were screwed but it was too late to change anything. That tells you how horrible this movie really was.