Has the "it's for kids' mentality been holding TMNT back?

[Metalwolf]

And is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[Commenter 42]

Lol, over to you Leo...

[Rooish]

I think it's pretty much agreed by people who like other Turtles incarnations, such as the comics, that the mentality is terrible for the TMNT.

[Cure]

It's a good thing in my opinion. I don't like the serious stuff.

At the same time, however, everyone deserves to get their preference so a balance is needed.

[Luckyday]

If you're going to have "it's for kids" mentality then why bother making it an action orientated show in the first place? You might as well get rid of the ninja aspect and the whole deal with the Shredder all together when nothing at stake.

[Rooish]

This being said, the "dark and gritty" stuff was not a big part of Mirage Volume 1 except in the first issue, Return to New York, Shades of Gray and City at War. The rest was lots of wacky zaniness. And as much as I like the more adult stuff, I prefer the Turtles don't take killing too lightly.

[Luckyday]

The show is at it's best when it's made for everyone or at least when both parents and their children can sit down and watch it and enjoy it together. Since TMNT is one of those properties that has more then one generation of fans, this the best approach when writing for this show. Arguably, at cartoon network when creators are set out to create something that they themselves would enjoy watching, then more often then not, the end result is often a master piece or at least really good and entertaining.

With nick's tmnt, it's sometimes hard to determine on whenever if the writing team is just having fun or craving to the demand.

[Powder]

The turtles' best stories are depressing & introspective, so my answer is yes.

[IndigoErth]

Socially speaking it's an unfair stigma that people won't let go of, and if it's what society assumes and expects then it's probably what some are bound to keep aiming for. Though I assume the franchise itself would have the power to do whatever it damn well pleases for whoever they want to gear something toward.

Really it irks me every time I see that stated. I am perfectly happy to share with the younger generations, they will after all help in making sure the Turtles continue to exist, but any time I see "it's a kids thing/movie/whatever" I can't help but feel a bit territorial. No one is telling or insinuating to lifelong 60-year-old fans that Superman isn't for them anymore. ("Oh, the last Superman movie was stupid? Well its a kids thing, what do you expect? I just looked at it how my 6-year-old self would have and enjoyed it!") Hell, I don't know much about Superman, but as a "kids thing" TMNT certainly seems, to me, more brutal than Superman.

Turtles can't get no respect.

[Rooish]

The turtles' best stories are depressing & introspective, so my answer is yes.

Yes.

Unfortunately it seems the "darkest" thing we have right now is the new movie. The IDW comic has its dark moments but the Turtles have yet to kill anyone, even when Leo was brainwashed to follow Shredder and was guilt-ridden after. The Nick show has pretty dark episodes too, but without emotional payoff. And Nickelodeon is preventing the IDW comic from being darker.

[Luckyday]

The Nick show has pretty dark episodes too, but without emotional payoff.

That's just really frustrating because this show has the greatest voice talent that I have ever seen that's on par with Avatar and just about any show from Cartoon Network. :(

If only they let that voice talent lend itself with it's writing then by god, there would be some really great scenes.

[Leo656]

The fact that, to most people, the "real" TMNT is the cartoon is a huge problem.

At the same time, you really need to have something for everyone. It's not like, I'unno, My Little Pony or SpongeBob, where it clearly IS just for kids and everyone else can like it if they want, but it can never, ever be anything else but what it is. TMNT can be, and has been, a lot more than a simple kids' show. The very best of its potential simply can never be reached when it's all watered down. Think about it: You have a main character who carries two swords around constantly and all he can or will ever do with them is slice robots. That's... lame. It's like Thundercats; you give the main character this giant, awesome magic sword, but it's a kids's show, so instead of the only LOGICAL thing you could come up with for conflict resolution (Being stabbed with the Sword of Omens is the One and Only thing that can kill Mumm-Ra), you do something entirely stupid just to avoid the violence so you won't "traumatize the kiddies" (Mumm-Ra seeing his REFLECTION in the Sword Of Omens defeats him... WHY give Lion-O a f*cking sword at all?! He may as well carry around a goddamn hand mirror!). Same Stupid Sh*t.

Ideally, you can and should have different "separate but equal" TMNT properties co-existing simultaneously so everyone of any age can just take what they want and leave the rest, like a Chinese buffet. I mean, just a couple years ago, we had Nolan's Batman movies and the "Brave and the Bold" cartoon co-existing at the same time. Both were very good interpretations of the character/mythology, from entirely opposite directions.

Thing is, Batman has been taken seriously for so long that having that kind of a kiddie show exist doesn't hurt anything. TMNT has NEVER been taken seriously because nobody has ever taken a serious approach to the material on a "grand" scale. Nobody reads comic books. That's why I hate having a "kiddie" TMNT movie universe when we already have kiddie cartoons. More people watch movies than cartoons. Let the cartoons be for kids, the Movies be for everyone/Grown-Ups, and the comics can go absolutely anywhere.

Let's face an uncomfortable truth: TMNT is nowhere near as popular as Superman or Batman, partly because they've never had that "mature" take, aside from the first movie which was only 3/4 that, really. But on the other hand, they ain't Bugs Bunny as far as their popularity as a cartoon, either. The franchise can't survive by just doing another cartoon every few years and pumping out more toys; to some degree, you have to let the material Grow Up with the audience, and if you want them to STAY fans, you have to keep giving them new stuff to like as they get older, stuff they can actually relate to.

Otherwise... hate to break it to ya, gang, but this franchise won't last. If it's not allowed to be More than just a kids' cartoon, it'll fade out, and eventually, when the Nick powers-that-be feel like they've squeezed their last dollar out of it, they'll stick it on a shelf next to Hey Dude and Doug and stick it in a nostalgia block at 3am, and otherwise you'll never see it again. That's not a worst-case scenario, that's a "It Will happen" scenario. TMNT isn't anywhere NEAR as popular as it could and should be, and as some of the fans think it is. It can and will die one day if it's not allowed to break out of that "Kids Show" box it's trapped in now.

[LeoRaph]

The fact that, to most people, the "real" TMNT is the cartoon is a huge problem.

At the same time, you really need to have something for everyone. It's not like, I'unno, My Little Pony or SpongeBob, where it clearly IS just for kids and everyone else can like it if they want, but it can never, ever be anything else but what it is. TMNT can be, and has been, a lot more than a simple kids' show. The very best of its potential simply can never be reached when it's all watered down. Think about it: You have a main character who carries two swords around constantly and all he can or will ever do with them is slice robots. That's... lame. It's like Thundercats; you give the main character this giant, awesome magic sword, but it's a kids's show, so instead of the only LOGICAL thing you could come up with for conflict resolution (Being stabbed with the Sword of Omens is the One and Only thing that can kill Mum-Ra), you do something entirely stupid just to avoid the violence so you won't "traumatize the kiddies" (Mumm-Ra seeing his REFLECTION in the Sword Of Omens defeats him... WHY give Lion-O a f*cking sword at all?! He may as well carry around a goddamn hand mirror!). Same Stupid Sh*t.

Ideally, you can and should have different "separate but equal" TMNT properties co-existing simultaneously so everyone of any age can just take what they want and leave the rest, like a Chinese buffet. I mean, just a couple years ago, we had Nolan's Batman movies and the "Brave and the Bold" cartoon co-existing at the same time. Both were very good interpretations of the character/mythology, from entirely opposite directions.

Thing is, Batman has been taken seriously for so long that having that kind of a kiddie show exist doesn't hurt anything. TMNT has NEVER been taken seriously because nobody has ever taken a serious approach to the material on a "grand" scale. Nobody reads comic books. That's why I hate having a "kiddie" TMNT movie universe when we already have kiddie cartoons. More people watch movies than cartoons. Let the cartoons be for kids, the Movies be for everyone/Grown-Ups, and the comics can go absolutely anywhere.

Let's face an uncomfortable truth: TMNT is nowhere near as popular as Superman or Batman, partly because they've never had that "mature" take, aside from the first movie which was only 3/4 that, really. But on the other hand, they ain't Bugs Bunny as far as their popularity as a cartoon, either. The franchise can't survive by just doing another cartoon every few years and pumping out more toys; to some degree, you have to let the material Grow Up with the audience, and if you want them to STAY fans, you have to keep giving them new stuff to like as they get older, stuff they can actually relate to.

Otherwise... hate to break it to ya, gang, but this franchise won't last. If it's not allowed to be More than just a kids' cartoon, it'll fade out, and eventually, when the Nick powers-that-be feel like they've squeezed their last dollar out of it, they'll stick it on a shelf next to Hey Dude and Doug and stick it in a nostalgia block at 3am, and otherwise you'll never see it again. That's not a worst-case scenario, that's a "It Will happen" scenario. TMNT isn't anywhere NEAR as popular as it could and should be, and as some of the fans think it is. It can and will die one day if it's not allowed to break out of that "Kids Show" box it's trapped in now.

Which is why I'm such a firm believer that WB should try to buy the rights from viacom when they're done with it. Personally, I think they know how to give the best of both worlds better than anyone else. I know they can do them justice. I mean, TMNT even is influenced by DC Writers & Artists what could be a more fitting place to end up. It will be given justice on so many levels but will it happen...who knows..

[Luckyday]

I can't help but wondering if franchise would have that nice middle ground if it had become part of the Marvel Universe?

[Leo656]

They'd honestly have a better sandbox to play in at DC/WB. Marvel already has too many mutants, and actually, just Too Many Characters in general. This isn't even a matter of anyone saying "Well I prefer Marvel over DC" or whatever, that isn't the point, it's just a point of where they'd fit better and actually Stand Out more.

Both companies are super-crowded, but there's seriously about 10 Marvel characters for every DC character, and 80% of them are "mutants". Having the Turtles be in that mix would be a terrible idea. Also, under the DC/WB banner, they'd have a better chance of being published completely separate from the "main universe" anyways, since DC has a history of doing that with tons of books. Just because DC had them doesn't *necessarily* mean they'd use them in the main universe, although they probably would at some point.

It's a pipe dream either way, and I know more people tend to prefer Marvel but frankly, that arrangement wouldn't actually work as well as it may seem at first glance. If it HAD to be one of the two companies, DC/WB would objectively be the better fit.

[FoxBoxKid]

The fact that, to most people, the "real" TMNT is the cartoon is a huge problem.

Ideally, you can and should have different "separate but equal" TMNT properties co-existing simultaneously so everyone of any age can just take what they want and leave the rest, like a Chinese buffet. I mean, just a couple years ago, we had Nolan's Batman movies and the "Brave and the Bold" cartoon co-existing at the same time. Both were very good interpretations of the character/mythology, from entirely opposite directions.

Thing is, Batman has been taken seriously for so long that having that kind of a kiddie show exist doesn't hurt anything. TMNT has NEVER been taken seriously because nobody has ever taken a serious approach to the material on a "grand" scale. Nobody reads comic books. That's why I hate having a "kiddie" TMNT movie universe when we already have kiddie cartoons. More people watch movies than cartoons. Let the cartoons be for kids, the Movies be for everyone/Grown-Ups, and the comics can go absolutely anywhere.

But cartoons shouldn't be just for kids. That's an even bigger problem, I think. The "cartoons are for kids" mentality is stifling creativity and holding back our culture. It sickens me that people are so close-minded and/or ignorant that they have those preconceived notions about art.

[Leo656]

You're right about that, but Nick is doing these particular cartoons now and forever so you can just forget anything greater than what we already have.

[ToTheNines]

Both companies are super-crowded, but there's seriously about 10 Marvel characters for every DC character, and 80% of them are "mutants". Having the Turtles be in that mix would be a terrible idea. Also, under the DC/WB banner, they'd have a better chance of being published completely separate from the "main universe" anyways, since DC has a history of doing that with tons of books. Just because DC had them doesn't *necessarily* mean they'd use them in the main universe, although they probably would at some point.

Dude, I just imagined TMNT as a Vertigo comic. Awesome.

Anyways, I instantly count Marvel out just due to the Hand Clan being there. Although I guess you could work the Foot in as a branch or even new rival to the Hand. That would be so full circle.

[Leo656]

DC: Foot Clan rivalry with the League of Shadows. BOOM.

[turtlefanforever]

the mentality is wrong but people who think that and aren't actually involved in creating more work within the franchise it's just whatever. Like look at the nick cartoon for example. It panders to the lowest common denominator. it is solely for kids and toddlers. Like other stuff for whatever reason there is some adult oriented jokes snuck in there just cause Hollywood is sick and likes to do that for some reason. The cartoons will be aimed more towards kids. It's all been that way besides 2k3 which was aimed more towards teens and really followed stayed true to the source content as best as it could within the perimeters that it was given. It's really just whatever because the people that think that aren't the ones putting out the content for us to watch or read. Besides the fellows running the nick series.

[Luckyday]

They'd honestly have a better sandbox to play in at DC/WB. Marvel already has too many mutants, and actually, just Too Many Characters in general. This isn't even a matter of anyone saying "Well I prefer Marvel over DC" or whatever, that isn't the point, it's just a point of where they'd fit better and actually Stand Out more.

Both companies are super-crowded, but there's seriously about 10 Marvel characters for every DC character, and 80% of them are "mutants". Having the Turtles be in that mix would be a terrible idea. Also, under the DC/WB banner, they'd have a better chance of being published completely separate from the "main universe" anyways, since DC has a history of doing that with tons of books. Just because DC had them doesn't *necessarily* mean they'd use them in the main universe, although they probably would at some point.

It's a pipe dream either way, and I know more people tend to prefer Marvel but frankly, that arrangement wouldn't actually work as well as it may seem at first glance. If it HAD to be one of the two companies, DC/WB would objectively be the better fit.

But the thing is that with DC. It's a world fill with demi gods that out saving the world and even though, the turtles would stand out more, they would have a hard time keeping up. The turtles being mostly stuck in one location, would hardly have any opportunity or any reason to really interact with DC universe.

With the marvel universe, most superheroes are street level and it easier to imagine how they will play off each other.

Hell New York is such a big place that Spiderman can be somewhere near Time Square since there is a lot of tourists which fits with his show off persona dealing with his band of super villains, Daredevil would somewhere with a high crime rate or just somewhere taking on kingpin with his secret identity as a lawyer and his alter ego. I think TMNT would fit in some location dealing with the urban legends but we, the audience are never sure if the urban legends are mutants because it's never really revealed.

I understand that Marvel have their brand on mutants but that's starting to change with making inhumans the new mutants with a total separate origin.

[DarkFell]

Yes and No.

No - IDW and Mirage fans are probably sick of seeing these words, but here they are..I liked the OT cartoon as a kid and fell in love with again as an adult. Didn't have much access to the more mature Turtles comic due to reading the Archie comics at a Wal-Mart. Didn't start hanging out and browsing at a comic book store until I reached my teens. Once again - zero exposure to the more mature TMNT comics.

Yes - OT was well, OT and it didn't go far from it being OT. 2012 Nick Turtles have their eps. that are pretty good. One of the things I seem to read on this forum is that they borrow more from OT, be it the atmosphere, mutants, whatever. 2k3 might have perhaps been seen closer to the graphic novels. Let me know if I got it wrong.

Some years later, I did receive Challenges and this is the only Mirage book that I currently own. And I have been seeing lots of killer comic issues showing up in this forum. Thanks for the info guys.

Maybe this might answer your question; it depends on how people treat and view the franchise.

[Leo656]

Luckyday: Thing is, DC has a much better history of juggling "demi-god" characters like Superman and Green Lantern alongside "street" characters like Batman etc., and they've also been much better at giving books that didn't "fit" in the main line their own space, be it Vertigo, WildStorm, etc. Marvel sucks at that. Remember the "New Universe"? Don't bother, nobody does.

Literally the only upside to Marvel would be, if you work them into the main universe, you make the Daredevil connection canon. That's It. The very fact that their NYC has 729 different super-heroes already in it speaks for itself as to why that would be a terrible fit.

The only "argument" comes from a person's bias if they like Marvel better, but it's clearly Just Not A Good Fit. At least at DC/WB there'd be a decent chance that it could at least be run as its own separate book if they couldn't work it into the "proper" DCU. And if they were part of the main line, DC also isn't drowning in mutants. They'd be unique there. It just works better all the way around.

I get that they are a totally different type of "mutant" than the X-Men mutants but it's still a term that's completely over-saturated in the Marvel U.

[Sabacooza]

This for kids mentality has most definitely held TMNT back. Is it a good thing? Most definitely not. I don't understand why we can't have the best of both worlds, something for adults and something for kids. I'm convinced that Viacom has no idea what they're doing with this property. I wish that some more competent company owned it. Maybe WB owning it wouldn't be such a bad idea. Can't be any worse than Viacom.

[Luckyday]

Luckyday: Thing is, DC has a much better history of juggling "demi-god" characters like Superman and Green Lantern alongside "street" characters like Batman etc., and they've also been much better at giving books that didn't "fit" in the main line their own space, be it Vertigo, WildStorm, etc. Marvel sucks at that. Remember the "New Universe"? Don't bother, nobody does.

Literally the only upside to Marvel would be, if you work them into the main universe, you make the Daredevil connection canon. That's It. The very fact that their NYC has 729 different super-heroes already in it speaks for itself as to why that would be a terrible fit.

The only "argument" comes from a person's bias if they like Marvel better, but it's clearly Just Not A Good Fit. At least at DC/WB there'd be a decent chance that it could at least be run as its own separate book if they couldn't work it into the "proper" DCU. And if they were part of the main line, DC also isn't drowning in mutants. They'd be unique there. It just works better all the way around.

I get that they are a totally different type of "mutant" than the X-Men mutants but it's still a term that's completely over-saturated in the Marvel U.

I guess when it comes down, you and I want TMNT to go in two completely different directions. You want to stand on it's own and I really want them to mix and interact with other characters.

To really see things from your perspective, I can imagine they can become too dependent on crossovers and some their own personal story lines and would become forgotten among the sea of marvel grand scale madness of civil war or what ever big story arc that they always get suck in. I wouldn't want the turtles become supporting characters or become "those four other guys".

Funny enough that's the problem with the Flash in DC but that whole another issue.

If Turtles ever really need someone to interact with in DC. I can see them in a crossover with Teen Titans or even Young Justice. It would be a needed teenage element that's been missing. Only thing is that you need to slightly change Leonardo because he's too similar to Robin but the same can be said with Mikey and Beast Boy.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

My response? NO! The only version of the turtles I read, watch, or consume is the toned-down, superhero style tmnt. I can't stand the grim, gritty, beer drinking, and blood soaked turtles of mirage- the cycle of vengeance does nothing for me, it's not 'compelling' or 'interesting'. Personally, IDW is the perfect balance between the extremes, and my favorite show versions are 2k3 and Nick toons.

Both versions have a right to exist, and the fans of both versions have a right to enjoy their versions without criticism. The OT and all it has spawned is not some kind of blemish on the original comics, and there is no call for those who enjoy either version to rip up anything anyone else likes- I'm sorry, wither it's Mirage, OT, Archie Nick, 2k3, Next Mutation, the old movies or new, your version of TMNT is NOT somehow better than somebody else's favorite, and you have no right to rip their turtles apart!

[Coola Yagami]

Could it be maybe because the heroes are.... well.... talking turtles? For some reason I think the series wouldn't have the 'this is for kids' problem if it was these 4 ninja guys that for whatever reason were inspired by Turtles or wanted to do a backwards kinda thing with 'these guys being fast turtles' or whatever instead of actual mutated talking turtles. Maybe the rest of the world sees the Turtles as something silly like Ducktales or other action characters where the main characters are talking animals.

Honestly, Leo brought it up somewhere before, there are even topics about 'do others know you're a TMNT fan' or 'do your friends/family/whoever know you're a TMNT fan' and the like, and that's already the problem. Why must we hide it like it's something to be ashamed of? Why can I buy a Batman shirt and be cool but if I buy a TMNT shirt I'm silly and too childish for my age?

It's like Heath Ledger, "Say you love Batman while being a grown man and nobody bats an eye, but say you love the Ninja Turtles while being a grown man AND EVERYBODY LOSES THEIR MINDS!!!!'

I kinda get the idea that the turtles being.... turtles may be what's so hard for people taking it so seriously. I don't think Nolan would have even bothered picking up Batman if he was actually a talking cartoon bat and not a man with a bat motif. Even Guardians of the Galaxy, that have a talking raccoon and tree.... you still have three other humans (or humanoid) characters to relate to that helps you take the movie and team seriously rather than if the team was 5 talking raccoons or 5 talking trees.

[Luckyday]

Well that's kind of zoophobic in my opinion. :lol:

I think that can be solve if you make them look realistic and less cartoony looking.

[Coola Yagami]

My response? NO! The only version of the turtles I read, watch, or consume is the toned-down, superhero style tmnt. I can't stand the grim, gritty, beer drinking, and blood soaked turtles of mirage- the cycle of vengeance does nothing for me, it's not 'compelling' or 'interesting'. Personally, IDW is the perfect balance between the extremes, and my favorite show versions are 2k3 and Nick toons.



Whoa whoa whoa, people have to tone it down with the Mirage comics being dark, gritty and blood baths. It's not like that. It's no different from any other comic out there. It's just that the comics have more realism that cartoons always censor and change around for the sake of the kiddies.

The Mirage Turtles actually USE their weapons for the reason they were actually intended, instead of Leo just cutting ropes or fire hydrants or whatever.... but that doesn't mean they're running around spilling the enemies' guts out. It's not gratitous and gory like some slasher film, it's just.... well Leo and Raph can actually cut people and if they're not careful the people can actually cut them back. Not this cartoon BS where Shredder swipes at someone and they fly back as if it was just a punch, or Leo being 'impaled' by Karai in the 'who the **** knows where' because there are no signs of injury or blood. Yeah, can't show blood in a kids cartoon. I get it. Then don't ****in have Karai impale Leo if you can't even show it properly.

The drinking is minimal. If anything Casey is more of the boozer. But it's real and while the turtles don't drink hardly ever, you can still see bars in the background and whatnot. I mean a cartoon can't even acknowledge that bars exist unless it's one of the more adult ones like the Simpsons and Family Guy.

The cycle of vengeance is a neccesity and it's why the Foot continue to even fight the Turtles. Honestly, the Foot have better things to do, and the turtles aren't superheroes looking for crimes to stop. So this cycle of vengeance is what keeps it going. And um... the Nick toon is very heavy on Shredder being blinded by his vengeance over Splinter and the Turtles doncha know.

As for grim and gritty.... I kinda think that goes more into the issues in where the Turtles realize they're only four of a kind, or the ones that deal with their crappy ass futures that awaits them. The other stuff like time traveling with Renet and such is just good clean wild wacky fun and stuff like Return to New York is just what action packed comics are all about.

[Coola Yagami]

Well that's kind of zoophobic in my opinion. :lol:

I think that can be solve if you make them look realistic and less cartoony looking.

But that's still the problem. You can make them as realistic as you want but at the end of the day, they're still walking talking turtles. And for most people, a movie or series about talking animals might be what turns them off or make them think this is only kiddy fare.

I mean you can make Mickey Mouse look as realistic as a um.... humanoid mouse can be *shudders* but that doesn't mean the audience at large won't still think this new thing will still be just for kids.

[plastroncafe]

"It's for Kids" is code for "This is crap and we know it."

[Powder]

My response? NO! The only version of the turtles I read, watch, or consume is the toned-down, superhero style tmnt. I can't stand the grim, gritty, beer drinking, and blood soaked turtles of mirage- the cycle of vengeance does nothing for me, it's not 'compelling' or 'interesting'. Personally, IDW is the perfect balance between the extremes, and my favorite show versions are 2k3 and Nick toons.

Both versions have a right to exist, and the fans of both versions have a right to enjoy their versions without criticism. The OT and all it has spawned is not some kind of blemish on the original comics, and there is no call for those who enjoy either version to rip up anything anyone else likes- I'm sorry, wither it's Mirage, OT, Archie Nick, 2k3, Next Mutation, the old movies or new, your version of TMNT is NOT somehow better than somebody else's favorite, and you have no right to rip their turtles apart!

See, this post right here is proof that it has in fact held back the property AND the fandom, because people who only go for the "kid stuff" have this ridiculous idea that Mirage is, & only liked for, the "fact" that it's EXTREME TO THE MAX ADULT CONTENT! BEER! BLOOD! CURSING! when the reality of it's adult nature is that it stems from depressing, cerebral, heady stuff that kids would not understand or be stimulated by. Besides that, the series has plenty of heartwarming, light-hearted, goofy, sci-fi, etc content. A catch-all, genre-wise. You don't have to like it, but don't dismiss it when you have no idea what it's really about.

To say the OT is not a blemish on the original comics is not a matter of opinion. It IS a blemish. Is it enjoyable? Yes. Does it have it's own merits? Yes. Do I myself, as a Mirage "purist" like it? Yes. Do we owe a lot to it's existence? Absolutely. But has it done irreparable damage to the property in addition to the good stuff? You bet your ass. Why? Because they have been loud, vibrant, pizza eating dude-bros for 25 years, & people don't like change. They have known this, & only this, for the duration of their pop-culture sponging lives, & do not wish to humor anything else, & when the topic comes up in conversation, they say they're sick of everything getting a "dark reboot" despite the fact that such a version would be remaining true to their origins...

& I don't see where this presumed elitism is coming from, nobody is using this thread as means to say one version or another is the be-all end-all of turtles. God, your post is frustrating. & the most ironic part is that you say your favorite show is the 4kids series, & yet it's based on Mirage, the version that does nothing for you. Like, 70% of the stories are adaptations. Maybe you just don't like reading.

[Coola Yagami]

See, this post right here is proof that it has in fact held back the property AND the fandom, because people who only go for the "kid stuff" have this ridiculous idea that Mirage is, & only liked for, the "fact" that it's EXTREME TO THE MAX ADULT CONTENT! BEER! BLOOD! CURSING! when the reality of it's adult nature is that it stems from depressing, cerebral, heady stuff that kids would not understand or be stimulated by. Besides that, the series has plenty of heartwarming, light-hearted, goofy, sci-fi, etc content. A catch-all, genre-wise. You don't have to like it, but don't dismiss it when you have no idea what it's really about.

To say the OT is not a blemish on the original comics is not a matter of opinion. It IS a blemish. Is it enjoyable? Yes. Does it have it's own merits? Yes. Do I myself, as a Mirage "purist" like it? Yes. Do we owe a lot to it's existence? Absolutely. But has it done irreparable damage to the property in addition to the good stuff? You bet your ass. Why? Because they have been loud, vibrant, pizza eating dude-bros for 25 years, & people don't like change. They have known this, & only this, for the duration of their pop-culture sponging lives, & do not wish to humor anything else, & when the topic comes up in conversation, they say they're sick of everything getting a "dark reboot" despite the fact that such a version would be remaining true to their origins...

& I don't see where this presumed elitism is coming from, nobody is using this thread as means to say one version or another is the be-all end-all of turtles. God, your post is frustrating. & the most ironic part is that you say your favorite show is the 4kids series, & yet it's based on Mirage, the version that does nothing for you. Like, 70% of the stories are adaptations. Maybe you just don't like reading.

Hehe, the irony. I like how they think a more serious TMNT would be a dark reboot, when the TMNT they know is already a Flanders reboot.

[Luckyday]

Whoa whoa whoa, people have to tone it down with the Mirage comics being dark, gritty and blood baths. It's not like that. It's no different from any other comic out there. It's just that the comics have more realism that cartoons always censor and change around for the sake of the kiddies.

The Mirage Turtles actually USE their weapons for the reason they were actually intended, instead of Leo just cutting ropes or fire hydrants or whatever.... but that doesn't mean they're running around spilling the enemies' guts out. It's not gratitous and gory like some slasher film, it's just.... well Leo and Raph can actually cut people and if they're not careful the people can actually cut them back. Not this cartoon BS where Shredder swipes at someone and they fly back as if it was just a punch, or Leo being 'impaled' by Karai in the 'who the **** knows where' because there are no signs of injury or blood. Yeah, can't show blood in a kids cartoon. I get it. Then don't ****in have Karai impale Leo if you can't even show it properly.

The drinking is minimal. If anything Casey is more of the boozer. But it's real and while the turtles don't drink hardly ever, you can still see bars in the background and whatnot. I mean a cartoon can't even acknowledge that bars exist unless it's one of the more adult ones like the Simpsons and Family Guy.

The cycle of vengeance is a neccesity and it's why the Foot continue to even fight the Turtles. Honestly, the Foot have better things to do, and the turtles aren't superheroes looking for crimes to stop. So this cycle of vengeance is what keeps it going. And um... the Nick toon is very heavy on Shredder being blinded by his vengeance over Splinter and the Turtles doncha know.

As for grim and gritty.... I kinda think that goes more into the issues in where the Turtles realize they're only four of a kind, or the ones that deal with their crappy ass futures that awaits them. The other stuff like time traveling with Renet and such is just good clean wild wacky fun and stuff like Return to New York is just what action packed comics are all about.

It also has this fantastical journey angle in some parts of the mirage and completely in Archie. I think the element that hasn't been done yet in my opinion is a story of coming of age with the turtles. I really to see a story that emphasis on them growing up from boys to young adults in a big scary world with a theme of them trying to find their place and makes it so fitting that they be would only ones of their kind, because how would you try fit in when there is no one else like you?

[plastroncafe]

When did "dark and gritty" become code for Grown Up?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some realistic turtle stuff, but when I say that what I mean is for punches to have weight to them. I want consequences to the action and drama. It's possible to do that sort of stuff without characters bleeding out of their eyes. The world just needs to be logically consistent.

[Luckyday]

When did "dark and gritty" become code for Grown Up?
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see some realistic turtle stuff, but when I say that what I mean is for punches to have weight to them. I want consequences to the action and drama. It's possible to do that sort of stuff without characters bleeding out of their eyes. The world just needs to be logically consistent.

Exactly what I'm talking about. A show can be smart without being violent or bloody. Heck it's violence like most young adult shows, can be implied or totally off screen.

[CyberCubed]

In Mirage TMNT written by Jim Lawson, Donatello yells, "Yabba Dabba Doo!" as a battle cry in one Tales issue.

Mirage was often silly itself.

[Coola Yagami]

Exactly what I'm talking about. A show can be smart without being violent or bloody. Heck it's violence like most young adult shows, can be implied or totally off screen.

True but one can only do it so much until it becomes a matter of 'well, why give this guy swords then if he can't ****in do anything with them'. Then it just starts looking silly.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Face it- what we NEED is a TMNT anime, and I DON'T mean like the OV one from back in the day. I want a more realistic, adult anime version, like ninja Scroll or GItS or something like that. Maybe with a feel like Spirited Away if you MUST give it a bit more kid-friendly approach, but I'd LOVE to see a TMNT along the lines of FMA or Akira! (Either way could be as dark and grown-up as we want, and actually, FMA-style would strike the perfect balance. That one could go t dark and depressing, or light-hearted, depending on the episode and story arc.)

[Luckyday]

True but one can only do it so much until it becomes a matter of 'well, why give this guy swords then if he can't ****in do anything with them'. Then it just starts looking silly.

But there are creative ways of doing that without ever showing blood. The movie "Psycho" was able do it with out showing him stabbing the victim. I think if means having some scenes in a dark setting with little light, which brings a level of intensity or maybe you can make it like the Hunger Games in which making some of the scenes very fast pace. There are ways let Leonardo use his swords. There always has been since the dawn of time.

And the fact that blood doesn't spur out like a sprinkler in real life would lend it well if you shot in certain angles.

Or maybe just give him Iaito and a real sharp sword and he only the lethal one when he's serious.

[Coola Yagami]

But there can creative ways of doing that without ever showing blood. The movie "Psycho" was able do it with out showing him stabbing the victim. I think if means having some scenes in a dark setting with little light, which brings a level of intensity or maybe you can make it like the Hunger Games in which making some of the scenes very fast pace. There are ways let Leonardo use his swords. There always has been since the dawn of time.

They just kinda choose to go with 'neither' in the cartoons.

I especially like the scenes where Leo and Raph (or all 4 turtles) are without their weapons... and seemingly defenseless.... and then the moment they get their swords and sais back.... they start kicking things.... As if they couldn't do those jumpkicks and such before. Does holding a sword somehow give your kicks more power?

But then again the notion that the turtles kinda/sorta rely on their weapons as some kind of superpower where they seem to lose the ability to fight if they lose them in some of the cartoons always bugged me. They're friggin martial arts fighters. They should be able to punch and kick their way out of things even if they are temporarily disarmed.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, I think the "talking animals" bit is a big part of it sadly, paired with assumptions of people who haven't given it a chance. But come on, once you 'know' them that's pretty easy to look past for the most part. At that point they just become big green people. :)

Heck, they're more like us and visa versa than they (or us) are to, say, the apes from Planet of the Apes. Those are talking animals.

Does holding a sword somehow give your kicks more power?
Uhhh... works as a helpful counterweight? lol


As for the blood... Come on, even Disney will show a little now and then.

[Luckyday]

I still think that it's more of the fact that they look like plush cartoon turtles rather then real looking turtles. I mean when it comes to the face.

[IndigoErth]

But then they might fall more into something like the Planet of the Apes category?

I mean for some it might help for realism and a more serious perspective if that's what would appeal to them, rather than being cute and cartoony, but I imagine it may well also lose much of the relateability and attachment to them.

[Warhorse]

Socially speaking it's an unfair stigma that people won't let go of, and if it's what society assumes and expects then it's probably what some are bound to keep aiming for. Though I assume the franchise itself would have the power to do whatever it damn well pleases for whoever they want to gear something toward.

Really it irks me every time I see that stated. I am perfectly happy to share with the younger generations, they will after all help in making sure the Turtles continue to exist, but any time I see "it's a kids thing/movie/whatever" I can't help but feel a bit territorial. No one is telling or insinuating to lifelong 60-year-old fans that Superman isn't for them anymore. ("Oh, the last Superman movie was stupid? Well its a kids thing, what do you expect? I just looked at it how my 6-year-old self would have and enjoyed it!") Hell, I don't know much about Superman, but as a "kids thing" TMNT certainly seems, to me, more brutal than Superman.

Turtles can't get no respect.

I just don't understand why the TMNT can't be treated like Batman, Avengers or Star Wars, where it's enjoyable for kids, and adults and that there is a consise story to be told all at the same time. Heck, true kids stuff like Toy Story, Shrek and Finding Nemo are good franchises for kids and adults both to love and watch without being dumbed down because of fear the kiddies can't get it.

[Luckyday]

But then they might fall more into something like the Planet of the Apes category?

I mean for some it might help for realism and a more serious perspective if that's what would appeal to them, rather than being cute and cartoony, but I imagine it may well also lose much of the relateability and attachment to them.

Is that why 2014 turtles had so much add tchotchkes?

Because that wasn't necessary. I can relate to tall elvish blue cat people, if they have similar human emotions. They could have invested in the mo cap suits. Acting is what will make you believe that they are real people. Giving them more scenes of them being a real family with real issues and would have worked.

I'm sorry, I just saw concept art that was better then the finish movie version and just made me so mad.

Man the mo caps technology must have been reeeally shity. Like "Mars needs moms" level of shity that leads into a level of uncanny valley and that why there so much screen time on Megan Fox, which is just hilariously ironic given how dead eye her performance is.

[Hannurdock]

More time was spent on the logistics of this burp than the plot of this movie - Everything Wrong with TMNT in 14 mins

This is the problem.

I think, if a director did do a serious batman-style version of TMNT, it would be revolutionary and change the entire attitude to the turtles.

Problem is, those with the big bucks behind them are too scared to open that can of worms in case it doesn't work out.

[Leo656]

I guess when it comes down, you and I want TMNT to go in two completely different directions. You want to stand on it's own and I really want them to mix and interact with other characters.

Actually, maybe I wasn't clear enough but I'd have Zero problem if the TMNT were absorbed into the "mainstream" universe and crossed over and interacted with other characters. In fact, the fics I used to write had them heavily entrenched with the DCU, just sort of "behind the scenes" of what we had always seen; I was actually working on creating a series of stories in which they had actually been an integral part of the entire DCU mythology and every major event, just sort of "off-camera", because there's actually a ton of room to make that work if someone took care to do it properly. I wouldn't have any problem with them doing that.

It's just I also recognize most fans wouldn't care to see that because it probably would be done piss-poor, and that most would prefer TMNT be segregated from the "mainstream universe" in either DC or Marvel and never cross over with any super-heroes or anybody like that at all, and I think DC does a better job separating their Big characters from their niche ones. Like, there's a million characters in DC/Vertigo who have never even met Superman or Batman or anybody, it's like they have a Big Universe and a smaller, more intimate universe, all going on at the same time, and stuff doesn't need to mix or cross-over. They're just better at that than Marvel is, or used to be anyway.

Point being, they could run TMNT as entirely its own book OR mix it into the mainstream and either would be just fine. At Marvel, just the fact they live in New York would likely have them constantly tripping over other famous characters to the point of it becoming "TMNT, Guest-Starring (Blank)" every single month and it would be corny as hell. They'd also NEVER run it as a separate book from the Marvel U because they could never resist the urge to have Spider-Man and Wolverine show up. Subtlety is not something Marvel is good at. They'd just work better at DC if they HAD to be bought out by either.
----------------------------------------------

Also, this thread? Awesome. You guys are all awesome.

[Coola Yagami]

There's also the shared universe problem that since the tmnt don't have powers neither do their villains so there would be no reason the avengers or xmen wouldn't to able to take down the foot by now. They'd blow up the Technodrome before the turtles even heard it was invading.

I do wonder how the marvel universe would handle the existence of mutagen though.

[plastroncafe]

TMNT is already arguably IN the Marvel universe, given that their origin story is cribbed from Miller's run on "Daredevil."

Why wouldn't the Avengers defeat The Foot? For the same reason The Hand is still lurking about. As for Mutagen...it's what made Matt Murdock blind and gave him super senses to compensate.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

See, this post right here is proof that it has in fact held back the property AND the fandom, because people who only go for the "kid stuff" have this ridiculous idea that Mirage is, & only liked for, the "fact" that it's EXTREME TO THE MAX ADULT CONTENT! BEER! BLOOD! CURSING! when the reality of it's adult nature is that it stems from depressing, cerebral, heady stuff that kids would not understand or be stimulated by. Besides that, the series has plenty of heartwarming, light-hearted, goofy, sci-fi, etc content. A catch-all, genre-wise. You don't have to like it, but don't dismiss it when you have no idea what it's really about.

To say the OT is not a blemish on the original comics is not a matter of opinion. It IS a blemish. Is it enjoyable? Yes. Does it have it's own merits? Yes. Do I myself, as a Mirage "purist" like it? Yes. Do we owe a lot to it's existence? Absolutely. But has it done irreparable damage to the property in addition to the good stuff? You bet your ass. Why? Because they have been loud, vibrant, pizza eating dude-bros for 25 years, & people don't like change. They have known this, & only this, for the duration of their pop-culture sponging lives, & do not wish to humor anything else, & when the topic comes up in conversation, they say they're sick of everything getting a "dark reboot" despite the fact that such a version would be remaining true to their origins...

& I don't see where this presumed elitism is coming from, nobody is using this thread as means to say one version or another is the be-all end-all of turtles. God, your post is frustrating. & the most ironic part is that you say your favorite show is the 4kids series, & yet it's based on Mirage, the version that does nothing for you. Like, 70% of the stories are adaptations. Maybe you just don't like reading.

*SIGH* :( I mean no disrespect, Powder. nobody in this thread said anything like that. But I've seen a few posters on the boards here again and again pull the 'Mirage Elitism' card out and use it to the point of bullying any fans who didn't agree with them. Yes I know mirage isn't as dark as my exaggeration made it out to be, but also noticed I stood up and said the Mirage fans have the right to their stuff, too. My frustration on this topic extends above this thread, and the thread topic touched on that issue. I'm sorry if I came off as harsh.

[Leo656]

The problem with your exaggeration is just that a lot of people hold those views of Mirage etc. without actually having read any of it, they just go by what they hear. They hear about the contrast between the cartoons and how it's "dark" and "mature", and they interpret that as "violent" and whatnot, instead of taking its literal meaning, which is, "It's Just Not Written For Five-Year Olds".

EDIT: Sure is a lotta "We had a misunderstanding? Welp, I'm outta here" floating around lately.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I can understand that, and I do agree Mirage isn't as 'dark' and 'gritty' as most people make it out to be- I have read most of it, during my 'everything turtles' phase. I... just couldn't get into it. The characters, tone, and setting did nothing for me. Yet I really liked when many of those stories were redone for the 4kids series adaptation (but I don't like all of 4kids, either)

The mirage comics aren't bad, but I really don't like them, try as I might. I would say that, yes, the 'for the kids' label has hurt the mature side of the franchise, and I've previously agreed with the statement that the franchise should be split- one branch the dark 'mirage' elements- the 'ninja' turtles- and one with the pizza eating, rocksteady and bebop, mutants everywhere branch -the 'hero' turtles.

Also, I'm not totally against the 'dark' elements, I actually prefer a blending of the versions- IDW is my favorite version of the turtles of all, even above the OT,and there is a a great deal of Mirage influence there.

[Leo656]

For what it's worth, I don't really like them much either, or rather I like some of it a lot but it's super-overrated. I think there's some gems, a lot of filler, and taking Vol. 4 into account, some of it is just the most boring sh*t you'd never wanna read.

I totally get why people will take those Gems and put them over everything in the entire mythology, and can't really disagree, but there's still an overwhelming amount of it that runs the gamut from "crap" to "who-gives-a-f***?" Taken in its entirety, it's a C+. Some of it is A+, but the rest drags the average down.

That said, it wasn't pandering to the kiddies like most TMNT stuff does, so that's why people appreciate it so much, I think.

[plastroncafe]

Mirage : TMNT :: LotR : Fantasy.

It's what came first. It's what set the bar. It's important.
But it's hardly flawless. Even if we didn't know for a fact that they were flying by the seat of their pants the entire time, it's clearly evident in the work itself. Eastman even admitted that they weren't really sure what they were doing with the characters personality-wise until they started the on-going series on a recent podcast with Rob Paulsen.

[Luckyday]

The mirage universe to me is something that you can take a few interesting concepts and work them in your own adaptation of how you would TMNT to be.
It shouldn't really be treated like a creative bible to make everything exactly like it. Unless, it's Sons of the Silent Age.:shifty:

Like one of the few interesting notations in there is Mikey is not the youngest brother. Raph is the youngest one. I want to see this food for thought of making Mikey act like an older brother because it goes against expectation that we had on this character for nearly three decades.

I but don't want a show turn into a straight adaption of the mirage.
Seriously, though Sons of the Silent Age has to be exactly the same as it was in the comic. I'm not joking.

[Cipher]

Yes and yes. Or, specifically, the idea that it can't be aimed at varying demographics the way at least other larger superhero franchises are.

The turtles' best stories are depressing & introspective, so my answer is yes.
Yes.

The mirage universe to me is something that you can take a few interesting concepts and work them in your own adaptation of how you would TMNT to be.
It shouldn't really be treated like a creative bible to make everything exactly like it. Unless, it's Sons of the Silent Age.:shifty:
I don't think anyone's saying that. But I also don't think, and it looks like you agree, that anyone who's read them could come away saying things like "Sons of the Silent Age," "City at War," etc., aren't at the absolute pinnacle of stories these characters can be used for. And those, among the other A+ stories scattered throughout Mirage, are elements I'd love to see in other versions-- ones that kids-only takes wholly preclude.

That said, it wasn't pandering to the kiddies like most TMNT stuff does, so that's why people appreciate it so much, I think.
That, and you got the feeling that -- and this is also why the series as a whole is uneven, to be fair -- everyone was 100% behind what they were doing on a personal level. Whether it's the tongue-in-cheek verve of Eastman and Laird's early issues, opening up TMNT as an indie playground in the guest artist era or Tales, or (my favorite) the drive to tell emotionally resonant stories with the strange world they'd set up by the time Lawson starts scripting, it's something not even IDW has been able to capture, despite not being just "for kids." Even Volume 4, had someone taken over scripting duty from Laird, could, would and should have captured that energy.

I don't really go for dark for darkness' sake, but I'd really enjoy seeing that level of personal exploration to the material come back into the franchise. It's an adult approach in an entirely different way.

[Leo656]

I think I'd have settled for anybody writing Vol. 4 other than Pete.

"Well... I'm telling the story I want to tell... I'm not sure where it's going... or it it'll have an ending... I'm really not sure it's going to have any payoffs at all, really... but... stuff is happening... kind of... and there's plot threads... and... well... it's More Ninja Turtles... did I mention I really like my Segway? I didn't? Let me tell you allllllll about it, because in case you couldn't tell, I really don't want to talk about Ninja Turtles anymore and I only do it because people keep pestering me..."

I remember people here screaming we should be "grateful" because at least we were getting more TMNT product, even when that product was awful. I've been getting a real feeling of deja-vu this year, for reasons I'm sure I don't have to explain. :lol:

[plastroncafe]

In a recent interview Eastman mentioned just how much like Donatello Laird is in personality,...or is that the other way around.... and so now everything Don does is painted with a Laird-shaped brush.

[Cipher]

I think I'd have settled for anybody writing Vol. 4 other than Pete.

"Well... I'm telling the story I want to tell... I'm not sure where it's going... or it it'll have an ending... I'm really not sure it's going to have any payoffs at all, really... but... stuff is happening... kind of... and there's plot threads... and... well... it's More Ninja Turtles... did I mention I really like my Segway? I didn't? Let me tell you allllllll about it, because in case you couldn't tell, I really don't want to talk about Ninja Turtles anymore and I only do it because people keep pestering me..."
We're getting a little off-topic now, but I'd have been A-OK with Laird plotting Volume 4; he had (has?) some great ideas, and I even dug its open-ended sense of exploration, along with whatever niggling thoughts of mortality were running alongside its plots.

But he's not a dialogue-writer. Or, by training, a storyteller. All he really needed was someone else scripting the dialogue and maybe tightening up the storytelling, reining in some of his his digressions. Lawson and Murphy were right there. Oh well.

[Davetello]

Yes. Of course it has. How could it not?

There's nothing wrong with writing or creating stuff that's aimed at young children. Slapstick and light-hearted is fine. But why can't we have different iterations targeted at different demographics? These kids will grow up one day too, and many of them will wish to see a more serious interpretation of the TMNT. I don't buy that there's no market for a more mature version of the turtles. Not only would many of us long-term fans embrace it, but if marketed well it would pull in adults who don't currently have an interest in the turtles.

If it was distributed via something with a reputation for quality and given free reign- HBO television or Vertigo comics, for example - the things that could be done with this franchise are almost limitless. There's so much untapped potential there. There is a lot that can be done to make these guys and their story a transcendent property in many ways. If it were to happen they could finally shake off their 'childish' stigma.

We have a clandestine ninja clan led by a ruthless master warrior. On the other side of the fence we have four animal outcasts trained by a rat - a rat who just so happens to be an enemy of said ninja master and is hell bent on obtaining vengeance for his own dead master.We have one guy who is level-headed and has incredible levels of focus. Another who's filled with almost uncontrollable rage and anger against the world. One more whose more serene and friendly personality is the antithesis of the previous guy's. And a final turtle whose intelligence and genius seemingly knows no bounds. Four stereotypical, but very untapped, personalities. Infinite layers of meat could be put on these bones. Imagine the character development that the heroes and villains could go through? Heck, like all good shows there wouldn't even be such a clear dichotomy between villains and heroes. The show would blur the line and challenge the viewer to see the good in the 'villain' and the bad in the 'hero'. The potential character development for this property is incredible: flashbacks to Saki as a child, and his inability to really get over Nagi's death - cool-headed lethal warrior on the outside, but full of rage, hate and spite on the inside. Splinter's similar flashbacks to his life with Yoshi and Tang Shen. After the turtles' initial failure to kill Shredder on the roof, they begin to feel that insatiable quench for revenge through Splinter and his pain. And so forth.

The things that could be done with this franchise are incredible. More creative minds than mine could come up with all sorts of ideas - it's what they'd be paid to do. Imagine an HBO or Netflix series of 7 seasons of 13 eps. The first two or three seasons could adapt and follow the main parts of Mirage - the first few eps could set the stage and develop the origin stories, and by the time it gets to the season 3 finale we could be watching City at War. & after that it could evolve to new stories and interpretations.

I don't buy into the claim that "they're turtles so the property is too unrealistic or immature to be taken seriously". The X-Men are unrealistic, Spider-Man is unrealistic. Heck, Martian Manhunter is even more unrealistic than the TMNT. It just takes a little open-mindedness between creators and consumers alike to do this franchise the justice it is so desperately waiting on.

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen, but I fantasise about it daily. What an incredible ride it would be, if done with quality.

We all grow up eventually. These guys are perpetually 15 or 16 and it's high time that they became adult ninja turtles.

[neatoman]

And is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Something being "held back" is not a good thing, it means that it's not being allowed to live up to it's full potential.

Does having TMNT things primarily being made for children a bad thing? Well in the broader cultural sense it might seem like a bad thing (Star Wars is often said to be kids' thing), but people are more likely to attached to something as children as opposed to adults. This will lead to a niche of adults who will remain interested in TMNT, which opens up a market of more adult oriented TMNT material, the IDW series is hardly made for children (though not unacceptable for children to read) and it's probably the best TMNT material out there.

So in short, making "Kids' stuff" is needed to make sure there is a steady fanbase, and while that might create the stigma of "just for kids", that does not prevent adult oriented TMNT stuff from being produced.

[IndigoErth]

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen
Shhh, don't say that, it must happen, if anyone in that business has enough daring and guts to try, they just gotta do this! :D Everyone ask Santa for it this year, maybe he'll pull some strings. :trazz:


Seriously though, keep the "kids stuff" around, it's perfectly enjoyable no matter your age, but let the Turtles grow up a bit too.

I mean, it's easier to leave adult characters stuck in time and unaging since the progress is much slower once you're grown anyhow, but for characters perpetually stuck in their teens, feels a little stifling after this long. (Poor things, seven years of being a teen was hard enough, these guys have been stuck there for 30 years. lol)

[Brooke507]

I want the TMNT fandom to have a balance to it. I understand that eventually kids are going to grow up and they're going to want to see more mature content, and that's fine, but I don't want them to make it overly raunchy. I still believe in being tasteful. yet at the same time, I don't want the fandom to be so overly strict or too innocent that it seems like a barney episode.

[Cipher]

I want the TMNT fandom to have a balance to it. I understand that eventually kids are going to grow up and they're going to want to see more mature content, and that's fine, but I don't want them to make it overly raunchy. I still believe in being tasteful. yet at the same time, I don't want the fandom to be so overly strict or too innocent that it seems like a barney episode.
I think the reason this is being brought up in the first place, though, is that TMNT was born from more mature content (nothing too raunchy; actually of a pretty tasteful, though indie-influenced variety).

The child-focused elements came after, but unlike nearly every other comic/superhero franchise now -- which actually were kids' properties from the get-go -- it's kind of precluded those adult elements from ever hitting the mainstream. (It certainly doesn't have the multiple target demographics DC and Marvel properties do, with cartoons running alongside relatively adult films, live-action shows, etc; even the 2014 movie was aimed at the toy crowd; the IDW comic is also fairly declawed and subject to content restrictions leveled b Nickelodeon.)

It's a shame.

[CJRocky]

Yes. Of course it has. How could it not?

There's nothing wrong with writing or creating stuff that's aimed at young children. Slapstick and light-hearted is fine. But why can't we have different iterations targeted at different demographics? These kids will grow up one day too, and many of them will wish to see a more serious interpretation of the TMNT. I don't buy that there's no market for a more mature version of the turtles. Not only would many of us long-term fans embrace it, but if marketed well it would pull in adults who don't currently have an interest in the turtles.

If it was distributed via something with a reputation for quality and given free reign- HBO television or Vertigo comics, for example - the things that could be done with this franchise are almost limitless. There's so much untapped potential there. There is a lot that can be done to make these guys and their story a transcendent property in many ways. If it were to happen they could finally shake off their 'childish' stigma.

We have a clandestine ninja clan led by a ruthless master warrior. On the other side of the fence we have four animal outcasts trained by a rat - a rat who just so happens to be an enemy of said ninja master and is hell bent on obtaining vengeance for his own dead master.We have one guy who is level-headed and has incredible levels of focus. Another who's filled with almost uncontrollable rage and anger against the world. One more whose more serene and friendly personality is the antithesis of the previous guy's. And a final turtle whose intelligence and genius seemingly knows no bounds. Four stereotypical, but very untapped, personalities. Infinite layers of meat could be put on these bones. Imagine the character development that the heroes and villains could go through? Heck, like all good shows there wouldn't even be such a clear dichotomy between villains and heroes. The show would blur the line and challenge the viewer to see the good in the 'villain' and the bad in the 'hero'. The potential character development for this property is incredible: flashbacks to Saki as a child, and his inability to really get over Nagi's death - cool-headed lethal warrior on the outside, but full of rage, hate and spite on the inside. Splinter's similar flashbacks to his life with Yoshi and Tang Shen. After the turtles' initial failure to kill Shredder on the roof, they begin to feel that insatiable quench for revenge through Splinter and his pain. And so forth.

The things that could be done with this franchise are incredible. More creative minds than mine could come up with all sorts of ideas - it's what they'd be paid to do. Imagine an HBO or Netflix series of 7 seasons of 13 eps. The first two or three seasons could adapt and follow the main parts of Mirage - the first few eps could set the stage and develop the origin stories, and by the time it gets to the season 3 finale we could be watching City at War. & after that it could evolve to new stories and interpretations.

I don't buy into the claim that "they're turtles so the property is too unrealistic or immature to be taken seriously". The X-Men are unrealistic, Spider-Man is unrealistic. Heck, Martian Manhunter is even more unrealistic than the TMNT. It just takes a little open-mindedness between creators and consumers alike to do this franchise the justice it is so desperately waiting on.

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen, but I fantasise about it daily. What an incredible ride it would be, if done with quality.

We all grow up eventually. These guys are perpetually 15 or 16 and it's high time that they became adult ninja turtles.

i agree with all of this.

look at it this way, batman had the adam west version that was campy fun, then the tim burton version that was darker but still good for kids and now the nolan version that is more serious and realistic. three completley different versions of the same property. somewhere along the line somebody realised just because its a comic story about a man dressing up as a bat dosent mean it cant be done in a serious tone.

on film turtles has always had either the fun version or the fun with a dash of slightly darker version. they have never gone past that and like davetello said just because its about Turtles that do Ninjitsu dosent mean it cant be done in a serious tone.

[jenna]

The terms "dark" and "gritty" are thrown about very freely in relation to turtles, but I think mature audiences are looking for more than darkness and grit. Like soul, substance and character growth. That's why I love IDW.

To answer the question: yes. The fact that the heroes are talking turtles seems to be an insurmountable hurdle for producers to push beyond the "it's for kids" reasoning. I mean, even Transformers, which came from a toy line received more adult treatment than TMNT, which came from a comic with a fairly adult edge. I don't think it's possible to get to the heart of TMNT without embracing a mature audience, because the origin is centred around murder, grief and the need for vengeance.

And as long as the OT is considered the source material by the masses we won't see much beyond it.

Yes. Of course it has. How could it not?

There's nothing wrong with writing or creating stuff that's aimed at young children. Slapstick and light-hearted is fine. But why can't we have different iterations targeted at different demographics? These kids will grow up one day too, and many of them will wish to see a more serious interpretation of the TMNT. I don't buy that there's no market for a more mature version of the turtles. Not only would many of us long-term fans embrace it, but if marketed well it would pull in adults who don't currently have an interest in the turtles.

If it was distributed via something with a reputation for quality and given free reign- HBO television or Vertigo comics, for example - the things that could be done with this franchise are almost limitless. There's so much untapped potential there. There is a lot that can be done to make these guys and their story a transcendent property in many ways. If it were to happen they could finally shake off their 'childish' stigma.

We have a clandestine ninja clan led by a ruthless master warrior. On the other side of the fence we have four animal outcasts trained by a rat - a rat who just so happens to be an enemy of said ninja master and is hell bent on obtaining vengeance for his own dead master.We have one guy who is level-headed and has incredible levels of focus. Another who's filled with almost uncontrollable rage and anger against the world. One more whose more serene and friendly personality is the antithesis of the previous guy's. And a final turtle whose intelligence and genius seemingly knows no bounds. Four stereotypical, but very untapped, personalities. Infinite layers of meat could be put on these bones. Imagine the character development that the heroes and villains could go through? Heck, like all good shows there wouldn't even be such a clear dichotomy between villains and heroes. The show would blur the line and challenge the viewer to see the good in the 'villain' and the bad in the 'hero'. The potential character development for this property is incredible: flashbacks to Saki as a child, and his inability to really get over Nagi's death - cool-headed lethal warrior on the outside, but full of rage, hate and spite on the inside. Splinter's similar flashbacks to his life with Yoshi and Tang Shen. After the turtles' initial failure to kill Shredder on the roof, they begin to feel that insatiable quench for revenge through Splinter and his pain. And so forth.

The things that could be done with this franchise are incredible. More creative minds than mine could come up with all sorts of ideas - it's what they'd be paid to do. Imagine an HBO or Netflix series of 7 seasons of 13 eps. The first two or three seasons could adapt and follow the main parts of Mirage - the first few eps could set the stage and develop the origin stories, and by the time it gets to the season 3 finale we could be watching City at War. & after that it could evolve to new stories and interpretations.

I don't buy into the claim that "they're turtles so the property is too unrealistic or immature to be taken seriously". The X-Men are unrealistic, Spider-Man is unrealistic. Heck, Martian Manhunter is even more unrealistic than the TMNT. It just takes a little open-mindedness between creators and consumers alike to do this franchise the justice it is so desperately waiting on.

Seriously, a Netflix or HBO inspired mature TMNT TV series would be the greatest thing of all time. It will never happen, but I fantasise about it daily. What an incredible ride it would be, if done with quality.

We all grow up eventually. These guys are perpetually 15 or 16 and it's high time that they became adult ninja turtles.

Yes to all of this. Very well said.

[Powder]

The terms "dark" and "gritty" are thrown about very freely in relation to turtles, but I think mature audiences are looking for more than darkness and grit. Like soul, substance and character growth. That's why I love IDW.


The version that is cast aside for being nothing more than "dark & gritty" has more soul, substance, & character growth than any other version, including IDW.

[jenna]

The version that is cast aside for being nothing more than "dark & gritty" has more soul, substance, & character growth than any other version, including IDW.

Which version are you referring to? I probably love that one too....

[Powder]

Mirage, of course.

[jenna]

Mirage, of course.

Oh yeah... Definite favourite. Shame it is so overlooked.

I referenced IDW as I was referring to the current incarnations, but agree that Mirage ticks those boxes, and by extension so does does 2k3, being so heavily influenced by Vol 1.

[victory_angel]

I hate to say this...but perhaps Disney should pick up the rights to TMNT. '

I mean think about it, they own Marvel now, they own Star Wars now. But they also leave those properties seperate from there usual Disney fair. So no I doub't you'd never see a Kingdom hearts where your team consists of Sora, Donald, and Han Solo or Wolverine though it would be cool if that was possible.


But back in the day Disney did have a cartoon show known as Gargoyles. It was a serious cartoon and while it still plot fair was light enough for kids to enjoy there were still situations and plots that could be enjoyed by adults and stuff.

All the characters were well developed, and in a way the characters were similar to the Cast of TMNT.

And I believe I've heard there were a couple of episodes that were shown in school class rooms as lesson. For example one of the episodes in the first season was called "A Deadly Force" one of the characters finds a guns and starts playing with it, but then it goes off and he is horrified to learn that he has just hurt his clans human ally. The whole moment wasn't kidified, it was seriously done. And in the end when he appologized to their human ally about it, she forgives him and also admits that it was partly her fault because she had left her fire arm in the open where it could have been found.

And at least an episode following this she is shown hobbling around on crutches, and in a much later episode she is taking her service gun on out of a locked box.

So if that isn't enough proof that Disney is capable of giving TMNT the justice it deserves.

OjA443qGvh8

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Ah, Gargoyles. One of my favorites, and for that very reason. And like TMNT it was heavy on themes of vengeance and forgiveness, family, and friendship. The main characters are outcasts hidden from the world just as the turtles are, and there are even some adult plots dealing with romance, respecting people who are different, and issues of mercy, honor, compassion, etc. Disney did it once, they could certainly do it again! (And the possibilities for crossovers of these two IP's are just drool-worthy, IMHO....) Also, Gargoyles had lots of fun Easter Egg shout-outs to their other properties, so we already know that any TMNT incarnation they did would probably have a few fun gags tossed in for die-hard fans!

[Luckyday]

Disney for some reason is....getting it's act together. I don't how but it with Gravity Falls, Wonder Over Yonder, Phineas and Ferb, and treatment of the Marvel Universe, the channel is slowly returning to it's former glory.

I honestly would to prefer Cartoon Network but 6 years ago, I would never even dare Cartoon Network with past cancel shows like Sym-Bionic Titan but now seems like anything is possible on that network.

Have you watch Regular Show? That show started as another dude show like sanjay and craig and would remain as such had it been on Nick but on Cartoon Network it flourish and actual allow character develop.:teek:

What is that Disney and CN doing right with their shows and what is Nick doing wrong?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The thing is Disney goes through cycles of really GREAT stuff, followed by stuff that is- not so great. It usually happens every time a new generation grows up and enters the industry. We get a few years of mediocre, generic crap as older talent runs out of ideas, and then some fresh blood comes into the Disney talent stable, and WHAM! We get some amazing stuff from the Mouse House. It's been going on since the earliest days of the company.

[Guitar_Raph]

Demographs? No sir, I'm a Republican!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v330/PCenter/Mystery%20Section/Curly_Howard_actress_zpsa607d6fe.jpg

Seroiusly, I like TMNT in my own unique way.

[Ravenshell]

I hate to say this...but perhaps Disney should pick up the rights to TMNT. '

I mean think about it, they own Marvel now, they own Star Wars now. But they also leave those properties seperate from there usual Disney fair. So no I doub't you'd never see a Kingdom hearts where your team consists of Sora, Donald, and Han Solo or Wolverine though it would be cool if that was possible.


But back in the day Disney did have a cartoon show known as Gargoyles. It was a serious cartoon and while it still plot fair was light enough for kids to enjoy there were still situations and plots that could be enjoyed by adults and stuff.

All the characters were well developed, and in a way the characters were similar to the Cast of TMNT.

And I believe I've heard there were a couple of episodes that were shown in school class rooms as lesson. For example one of the episodes in the first season was called "A Deadly Force" one of the characters finds a guns and starts playing with it, but then it goes off and he is horrified to learn that he has just hurt his clans human ally. The whole moment wasn't kidified, it was seriously done. And in the end when he appologized to their human ally about it, she forgives him and also admits that it was partly her fault because she had left her fire arm in the open where it could have been found.

And at least an episode following this she is shown hobbling around on crutches, and in a much later episode she is taking her service gun on out of a locked box.

So if that isn't enough proof that Disney is capable of giving TMNT the justice it deserves.


And that's Disney's red-headed stepchild. :trazz: Probably why they didn't even put out the second half of the second season on DVD for 20 years. They really weren't crazy about us Gargs fans. (I'd like to see what other property they made that had a fan-con that ran 12 years, though.)

Disney, at least through the Eisner era, seemed a bit...grabby. They were riding high on their "second Golden Era" and started getting formulaic in their thinking, and that's when they dropped Pixar and started putting out drivel like Chicken Little and Brother Bear and Home on the Range. (As MsMarvelDuckie said.)

So it might be a matter of who's in charge and what kind of minds are on staff at the time (people who have a love for the property AND have good ideas) that would determine if they'd make a good TMNT series or not. If Diz for a hold of it during a slump, it might not do it any justice.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I think so. The mentatility that Turtles is for Kids, has made people in the general public not give Turtles the respect it deserves.

[LeoRaph]

Disney would be the worst possible thing to happen to TMNT, they would kiddify it up even more than it is now. Think about it, you're Disney you know a kids company...what would you choose as your primary version, cute or serious? The kids version would reign supreme and even if they did a mature version it would be heavily censored barely even reaching the standards of 2K3. Sure they did Gargoyles, and I loved what I saw when it was on but it was still a kids show and to be honest it was still underneath the level of 2K3.

We want a kids show AND a mature version. I don't believe Disney could do a mature version better than WB. WB do great versions of both and they DON'T hold back on the reality. These are ninjas with weapons which actually create a bloody mess, these are mutants forced to live out of normal society with no one else of their kind, freaks who know that is what people see, they are not heroes by choice they do what the have to do when they have to do it, they have no future that IS their reality. There is a lot of pain to their existence and many grey areas to explore. You think Disney has the balls to tell that story? I sure as hell don't.

WB would at least put as much effort into a more mature version as their kids version and give the characters the freedom they need. What's more they would be unique to the WB world and not drowned by the countless marvel/disney/starwars characters.

[Allio]

With that mentality is why we got Power rangers Samurai and Megaforce...the worst shows in teh franchise

[Werecat]

Yes the "its for kids" mentality is holding TMNT back because it is used as an excuse to not provide more depth to characters and the story.

How to Train Your Dragon 2 is critically acclaimed and has its dark moments so the "its for kids" mentality has no merit because it is only said by those who make excuses for poor work.

[Commenter 42]

Yes the "its for kids" mentality is holding TMNT back because it is used as an excuse to not provide more depth to characters and the story.

How to Train Your Dragon 2 is critically acclaimed and has its dark moments so the "its for kids" mentality has no merit because it is only said by those who make excuses for poor work.

How to Train Your Dragon and it's sequel, are kids films. They may have slightly more serious themes, but there is no denying the intended audience.

TMNT, done right, would be definitely be aimed at the 18 - 35 demo.

[Warhorse]

I think so. The mentatility that Turtles is for Kids, has made people in the general public not give Turtles the respect it deserves.

I'm sure the soccer moms who are so sure that the TMNT were created soley for the purpose of their precious, innocent little children might have something to do with how TMNT are marketed towards their little darlings.

[Commenter 42]

I'm sure the soccer moms who are so sure that the TMNT were created soley for the purpose of their precious, innocent little children might have something to do with how TMNT are marketed towards their little darlings.

I'm sure today's "soccer moms" grew up with the TMNT, like everyone else in their 30's today.

[Sabacooza]

People today have gotten too soft and politically correct so everything nowadays offends them. It's hard to break away from all the stupid kiddie stuff not that I hate the Nick show or anything. I like it a lot actually regardless of some of it's shortcomings of late. I'd just like to see a more mature version as well. What could it hurt to try it?

[Metalwolf]

People today have gotten too soft and politically correct so everything nowadays offends them. It's hard to break away from all the stupid kiddie stuff not that I hate the Nick show or anything. I like it a lot actually regardless of some of it's shortcomings of late. I'd just like to see a more mature version as well. What could it hurt to try it?They're afraid of pissing off the parents, as the parents won't allow their kids to see it if they do that. Ever notice how even some on here complain when the show tried to show some of the more scary stuff? Imagine that on a larger scale. Granted though these folks tend to have little kids and they try to let them watch something aimed at 7 and up, but Nick knows that parents won't make their kids stay away from something because they don't want to hurt their feelings, so Nick dumbs it down as much as possible.

And that's not mean in glowing terms about parents. Too many parents don't want to set limits because they are afraid of their children 'not liking them,' or seeing a child cry, so the child grows up entitled and thinking the world revolves around them, especially when parents make companies/other people kowtow to their demands.

I too want to see the Nick toon go into more deeper territory, as it would get rid of a lot of the goofier/extra MOTWs and might even make the ones we have a lot more engaging. Plus since it's aimed at an older audience, we'd likely get more coherent continuity and less of the hated plot amnesia to largely keep the characters as they are. That would be cool since I could see some of the neat plot stuff they could try, that they aren't even going to try here.

[TigerClaw]

As long as Nickelodeon holds the rights, We'll never see a more mature TMNT, I'm willing to bet that, Anything associated with TMNT, Has to get the approval of Nickelodeon, In order to sell it to Kids.

However, The IDW Comics, Even though I never read them, Appear to be somewhere between Kids and Mature.

[Turtle Park]

As long as Nickelodeon holds the rights, We'll never see a more mature TMNT, I'm willing to bet that, Anything associated with TMNT, Has to get the approval of Nickelodeon, In order to sell it to Kids.

However, The IDW Comics, Even though I never read them, Appear to be somewhere between Kids and Mature.

I agreed with you.

Nick TMNT is trying to balance between kids and mature, I mean...there still something serious in this version. But the main audience Nickelodeon target is kids, so the team can't go too far from this point.

The same thing both Nick and IDW are doing is, mix the history of TMNT(almost 30 years when the time they shows up).
About IDW comics, for some reason it feels like I'm watching(or reading)the animated series. It has the humor but also the gloomy side, and I can't stop myself to imagine their voice as 2k3 TMNT every time I read it.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

My one question is though... where do you gauge the 'mature' line?

Look at IDW, it's pulling a lot of it's influence from the 'goofy' cartoon, yet it's built on the story of an entire family being murdered by an arrogant and bloodthirsty ninja master, then the father and sons being reincarnated out of their burning desire to seek revenge. That is inherently darker than a rat turned sentient seeking revenge for his dead master. Also, no we don't see the turtles hacking and slashing limbs off and blood flying everywhere, but I'm willing to bet most of the foot ninja and criminals those blades hit have fatal stab wounds, and the turtles killed their fare share of baddies. It's just not front and center when they do it.

So the question is- what is the mature you're looking for? If it's them killing, a lot of action films have clean kills with little blood- doesn't matter vital fluids and organs aren't spilling across the screen. A quick slash or cut, a few drops of blood, the foe drops dead. Severed heads from a katana and hacked limbs do not make something mature. 300, Watchmen, and Sin City weren't 'mature' in my eyes, they were just brutal and violent-a teenager's idea of 'mature'.

I've heard people say the Triceritons and federation in the fugitoid arc were 'better' in the Mirage version than in the 4kids version. Why, because the 4kids triceritons weren't jacked on drugs like some of the mirage ones were? And they didn't get a federation officer to betray her comrades because she was an addict? I thought the 4kids triceritons had a more complex culture and better development than their Mirage counterparts. Also, look at bishop- he turned one of his friends into a monster just to further his paranoid goal of stopping and alien invasion. Add in his other atrocities, and you get a pretty scary character 'wittle kiddy' show!

The 4kids series achieved a lot while trapped under the 'kiddie' label, the only thing was lacking was the blood, and the direct usage and mentioning of mature subjects. IDW has had a father getting drunk and abusing his son, Leo dealing with the idea that he killed somebody, Rocksteady and Bebop going on a bloodthirsty rampage and kill several foot soldiers. Heck, we saw Yoshi stab several ninjas through the chest! Would blood and gore and mentioning 'mature' subjects really have made any of that any better?

Ultimately, the question is; would a 'sin city' or '300 ' turtles really add anything to the mix, versus the violence and maturity of your typical action movie? Are some people really looking for maturity, or just blood and violence? I'm not asking to condemn anyone, I'm simply asking to get people to ask themselves.

[TigerClaw]

Didnt the IDW comics covered Casey Jones's back story? I think he was dealing with an abusive father, that's pretty mature in itself.

[Warhorse]

I'm sure today's "soccer moms" grew up with the TMNT, like everyone else in their 30's today.

Yeah, explains why the new Nick series is slowly turning into a modern take of the old toon.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

And that's Disney's red-headed stepchild. :trazz: Probably why they didn't even put out the second half of the second season on DVD for 20 years. They really weren't crazy about us Gargs fans. (I'd like to see what other property they made that had a fan-con that ran 12 years, though.)

Disney, at least through the Eisner era, seemed a bit...grabby. They were riding high on their "second Golden Era" and started getting formulaic in their thinking, and that's when they dropped Pixar and started putting out drivel like Chicken Little and Brother Bear and Home on the Range. (As MsMarvelDuckie said.)

So it might be a matter of who's in charge and what kind of minds are on staff at the time (people who have a love for the property AND have good ideas) that would determine if they'd make a good TMNT series or not. If Diz for a hold of it during a slump, it might not do it any justice.


Too true. I'd like to think that they could do something really great with it, though, no matter who's in charge. There's so much there to work with already- they'd just have to adapt what's out there and put their own twist on it. And given what they did for Sleeping Beauty with Maleficent, I'd bet it would be pretty twisted indeed!

Also, I'd like to point out that Brother Bear was far from drivel. It was heart-felt and had a very deep theme and the story itself was quite mature, too.


Disney would be the worst possible thing to happen to TMNT, they would kiddify it up even more than it is now. Think about it, you're Disney you know a kids company...what would you choose as your primary version, cute or serious? The kids version would reign supreme and even if they did a mature version it would be heavily censored barely even reaching the standards of 2K3. Sure they did Gargoyles, and I loved what I saw when it was on but it was still a kids show and to be honest it was still underneath the level of 2K3.

We want a kids show AND a mature version. I don't believe Disney could do a mature version better than WB. WB do great versions of both and they DON'T hold back on the reality. These are ninjas with weapons which actually create a bloody mess, these are mutants forced to live out of normal society with no one else of their kind, freaks who know that is what people see, they are not heroes by choice they do what the have to do when they have to do it, they have no future that IS their reality. There is a lot of pain to their existence and many grey areas to explore. You think Disney has the balls to tell that story? I sure as hell don't.

WB would at least put as much effort into a more mature version as their kids version and give the characters the freedom they need. What's more they would be unique to the WB world and not drowned by the countless marvel/disney/starwars characters.


Not so. Disney may be a kids' franchise company on its surface, but it is FAR from JUST that. Ever see The Crying Game? A movie about a gay guy who ends up committing suicide (and a lot of other depressing, mature stuff in it) that was put out by one of Disney's studios. They have their own "adult" studios and projects, we just don't see them as much because they don't put the Disney "brand" on most of them. As it should be. And as pointed out earlier, Gargoyles most certainly WAS a Disney property, and it was FAR from "kiddified". I can see them doing a TMNT series or comic the same way. Heck, they revived Gargoyles in comics (under the original creator, even), and then Lexington came out as gay!

Do I think they have the balls to tell a mature TMNT story? Heck yeah, I do! When they can tell a story about Broadway accidentally shooting Elisa (and letting Dracon take the blame, BYW) they can certainly do TMNT as "mature". Or the story about Hakon the Viking chief and his thirst for vengeance and how it ultimately consumed him (literally!), or Demona's twisted views on humanity and where Gargoyles belong in the world, or even Xanatos and his finally finding redemption of sorts after all the terrible things he was responsible for- all because he fell in love and had a son. There was even an apocalyptic, dystopian story set in the future (much like SAINW) where the villain turned out to be- Lex! (A very resentful, bitter, and angry Lex, that is....) These are EXACTLY the sort of mature elements they could bring to TMNT, as well. I say, let them take a shot at it if they ever get the idea in their heads! (Or Nick wishes to sell the franchise.)

[victory_angel]

Too true. I'd like to think that they could do something really great with it, though, no matter who's in charge. There's so much there to work with already- they'd just have to adapt what's out there and put their own twist on it. And given what they did for Sleeping Beauty with Maleficent, I'd bet it would be pretty twisted indeed!

Also, I'd like to point out that Brother Bear was far from drivel. It was heart-felt and had a very deep theme and the story itself was quite mature, too.





Not so. Disney may be a kids' franchise company on its surface, but it is FAR from JUST that. Ever see The Crying Game? A movie about a gay guy who ends up committing suicide (and a lot of other depressing, mature stuff in it) that was put out by one of Disney's studios. They have their own "adult" studios and projects, we just don't see them as much because they don't put the Disney "brand" on most of them. As it should be. And as pointed out earlier, Gargoyles most certainly WAS a Disney property, and it was FAR from "kiddified". I can see them doing a TMNT series or comic the same way. Heck, they revived Gargoyles in comics (under the original creator, even), and then Lexington came out as gay!

Do I think they have the balls to tell a mature TMNT story? Heck yeah, I do! When they can tell a story about Broadway accidentally shooting Elisa (and letting Dracon take the blame, BYW) they can certainly do TMNT as "mature". Or the story about Hakon the Viking chief and his thirst for vengeance and how it ultimately consumed him (literally!), or Demona's twisted views on humanity and where Gargoyles belong in the world, or even Xanatos and his finally finding redemption of sorts after all the terrible things he was responsible for- all because he fell in love and had a son. There was even an apocalyptic, dystopian story set in the future (much like SAINW) where the villain turned out to be- Lex! (A very resentful, bitter, and angry Lex, that is....) These are EXACTLY the sort of mature elements they could bring to TMNT, as well. I say, let them take a shot at it if they ever get the idea in their heads! (Or Nick wishes to sell the franchise.)


Lets not forget Gargoyles: the Goliath Chronicals. I mean yeah that is kinda the Red Sky of the the Gargoyles universe, partiularly since nothing after the first episode is cannon to the orignal series.

But the end of the Gargoyles series has a three part episode called Hunter's Moon where the Gargoyle's existance is completely exposed to the city of New York and they are framed for blowing up the police station that Elisa worked at.

However in the Goliath Chronicals, one of the villains from the Hunter's Moon Trilogy comes back and an plays off the city's anger and fear about the Gargoyles and creates a group called the Quarry Men who are essentually modeled off the KKK.

Now something like that would never happen in the Nick Show, but it could happen in the IDW comics.

[Allio]

Didnt the IDW comics covered Casey Jones's back story? I think he was dealing with an abusive father, that's pretty mature in itself.

The comics have always gotten into mature subjects

[Ravenshell]

Also, I'd like to point out that Brother Bear was far from drivel. It was heart-felt and had a very deep theme and the story itself was quite mature, too.


This one never grabbed me (though the moose-run commentary was a laugh). While not outright drivel, it felt formulaic to me, downright boring for most of it, and Disney seemed to start acting like since a character death in Lion King made such a big impression, they started throwing it in everywhere. I'm a victim of feels when I watch anything... but I just didn't get that with BB.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

My point was that it was deeper and a good bit darker than some of the other fare of that time. I tend to think of it as exploring darker content, where we actually see the consequences of characters' choices and the actual "body" being shown after a character death. For example, Tarzan did it rather graphically with Clayton, where just a few years earlier, we never saw what became of Gaston in B&tB, even though they pretty much met the same end. Nowadays they are far less afraid to show a character's remains or even how they die (Clayton's was especially gruesome, compared to most.) Brother Bear seemed to be going along the same lines, where the mother bear is actually seen being killed, and then we see her body and how her death changes things. Personally, I liked it for the themes in it as much as the characters, and the use of nature as a vehicle for learning some life lessons.

This actually reminds me a bit of some of the Mirage issues from the Classics collections, like the one with Donnie and the others going out on a sort of vision quest, and releasing the trapped spirits of un-hatched dinosaur babies. Unlike Nick, Disney has a strong tradition of natural history and ecological awareness, which could serve well in doing some very mature and deep TMNT tales. (Sort of like Sons of the Silent Age.) Going back to some of their older films, especially, I could see using settings like the farm to do some very serious introspective stories from them, particularly if done in the vein of old movies like Old Yeller or the ORIGINAL version of Homeward Bound (aka The Incredible Journey). Very few people still remember that that movie was actually based on a book, too....

And let's not forget that they've done adaptations of some pretty serious stories in their animated films, too. Hunchback was full of some very dark imagery and themes, in spite of it being a "kids' movie". The original material was far more mature, of course, but Frolo's bigotry and the idea of oppression and the mistreatment of outcasts was very prevalent there. Not to mention the religious and spiritual imagery and undertones, which were surprising coming from a "kids' movie" company. That gargoyle turning into a grinning demon at the end as Frolo fell was just- well, Nick would probably never go there....

[victory_angel]

and it's recent film Big Hero Six had serious subject matter in it. Such as the choice between acting out of anger and rashonally solving the problem. Loss of someone you deeply care for and admire, depression brought on by that sense of loss, self sacrifice for the greater good. Who here couldn't see Leo, Raph, or even Mikey (though you might want something other then the Nick incarnation for that one) hauling Donnie upside down over their sholders like Todashi does with Hiro so he can get a new perspective.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yup! That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of!

[Warboss74]

My one question is though... where do you gauge the 'mature' line?

Look at IDW, it's pulling a lot of it's influence from the 'goofy' cartoon, yet it's built on the story of an entire family being murdered by an arrogant and bloodthirsty ninja master, then the father and sons being reincarnated out of their burning desire to seek revenge. That is inherently darker than a rat turned sentient seeking revenge for his dead master. Also, no we don't see the turtles hacking and slashing limbs off and blood flying everywhere, but I'm willing to bet most of the foot ninja and criminals those blades hit have fatal stab wounds, and the turtles killed their fare share of baddies. It's just not front and center when they do it.

So the question is- what is the mature you're looking for? If it's them killing, a lot of action films have clean kills with little blood- doesn't matter vital fluids and organs aren't spilling across the screen. A quick slash or cut, a few drops of blood, the foe drops dead. Severed heads from a katana and hacked limbs do not make something mature. 300, Watchmen, and Sin City weren't 'mature' in my eyes, they were just brutal and violent-a teenager's idea of 'mature'.

I've heard people say the Triceritons and federation in the fugitoid arc were 'better' in the Mirage version than in the 4kids version. Why, because the 4kids triceritons weren't jacked on drugs like some of the mirage ones were? And they didn't get a federation officer to betray her comrades because she was an addict? I thought the 4kids triceritons had a more complex culture and better development than their Mirage counterparts. Also, look at bishop- he turned one of his friends into a monster just to further his paranoid goal of stopping and alien invasion. Add in his other atrocities, and you get a pretty scary character 'wittle kiddy' show!

The 4kids series achieved a lot while trapped under the 'kiddie' label, the only thing was lacking was the blood, and the direct usage and mentioning of mature subjects. IDW has had a father getting drunk and abusing his son, Leo dealing with the idea that he killed somebody, Rocksteady and Bebop going on a bloodthirsty rampage and kill several foot soldiers. Heck, we saw Yoshi stab several ninjas through the chest! Would blood and gore and mentioning 'mature' subjects really have made any of that any better?

Ultimately, the question is; would a 'sin city' or '300 ' turtles really add anything to the mix, versus the violence and maturity of your typical action movie? Are some people really looking for maturity, or just blood and violence? I'm not asking to condemn anyone, I'm simply asking to get people to ask themselves.
It's debatable whether the turtles have killed anyone in the IDW series. They made a big point about Slash being their first kill, but we know he survives. The Shredder makes a point to not have Dark Leo kill anybody which is in stark contrast to his run through everybody attitude. All the dark and mature things are being done by the villains in the series. Yoshi/Splinter has done some questionable things, but nothing so serious that they can't label him a good guy. There in lies the issue. The turtle's are trained in deadly combat, so let that take place. That to me is the brilliance in a lot of the Mirage work is that they take part in killing enemies, and they have to come to terms with/question what they've done.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah people don't seem to get it when it comes to the killing thing. The Turtles kill, but they don't go super over the top like everyone seems to think. There isn't stuff like decapitation or brains and guts flying around as the turtles bathe in the blood of their enemies. That's just stupid and it's not that kind of story.

It's more like Leo and Raph stabbing and occassionaly impaling a bad guy or two, but more like a 'matter-of-fact' thing that happens during battle. Shredder aside, since he is a major character, anything the Turtles do against the Foot and minor bad guys isn't overly glorified and whatnot. It's just.. when Leo takes a random swipe at a bad guy, we actually see him CUT SOMEONE WITH HIS SWORD instead of the camera panning away, or doing that stupid 2K3 thing where a sword slash somehow knocks you back as if it was a punch to the face.

Surprisingly, even the first movie had Leo swipe Shredder across the arm. No blood, but it wasn't needed to get the point across and it shows that hey.... Leo's swords can actually cut things and if you mess with him, you risk getting sliced and not just kicked in the face.

I don't ask for bloody-as-hell fights in a movie, but don't insult the audience by having characters used sharp weapons that are just there for show.

[victory_angel]

Right kinda like Donnie knocking the Shredder off the roof to prevent him from killing them all with that granade.

And yet in that milita story line happens, after the milita leader blows himself up thinking he was setting off his nuke. Donnie doesn't feel any sense of victory because even though the man who died was a flawed individual, all that person wanted was to insite change.

[Amaranthus]

Disney would be the worst possible thing to happen to TMNT, they would kiddify it up even more than it is now. Think about it, you're Disney you know a kids company...what would you choose as your primary version, cute or serious? The kids version would reign supreme and even if they did a mature version it would be heavily censored barely even reaching the standards of 2K3. Sure they did Gargoyles, and I loved what I saw when it was on but it was still a kids show and to be honest it was still underneath the level of 2K3.

We want a kids show AND a mature version. I don't believe Disney could do a mature version better than WB. WB do great versions of both and they DON'T hold back on the reality. These are ninjas with weapons which actually create a bloody mess, these are mutants forced to live out of normal society with no one else of their kind, freaks who know that is what people see, they are not heroes by choice they do what the have to do when they have to do it, they have no future that IS their reality. There is a lot of pain to their existence and many grey areas to explore. You think Disney has the balls to tell that story? I sure as hell don't.

WB would at least put as much effort into a more mature version as their kids version and give the characters the freedom they need. What's more they would be unique to the WB world and not drowned by the countless marvel/disney/starwars characters.

This guy gets it.
Just look at Disney's Marvel cartoons.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Then how do you explain their Star Wars cartoons? Those are much more successful AND (from what I've seen) mature than the Marvel ones- which are being aimed at a much younger audience, anyway. Marvel Heroes is basically a "chibi" version, so I wouldn't even count that one. Clone Wars, on the other hand, has been very well-received, and is for an older audience, and has added a lot of lore to the SW mythos. And they are about to go one better with a new SW movie, too!

It has nothing to do with whether they are CAPABLE of presenting a more "mature" TMNT- it's been proven that they COULD- but if they WOULD. I think that if it was done faithfully (as Disney tends to do in most of its acquired properties) then we could certainly end up with a TMNT that was the best of BOTH worlds, fun for kids, AND still mature enough to satisfy fans of the darker versions. Gargoyles, Star Wars, The Crying Game (yes that WAS a Disney-made movie)- heck look at the PotC movies, those were based on a KIDS' THEME PARK RIDE! But the movies were anything but "kiddie" fair.

[IndigoErth]

IF Disney would remain true to it, the only thing that worries me is they, I feel, might keep an even tighter death grip hold on ownership than what Nick I fear would should they decide to shelve it after a while.

Really, we need special copyright laws for longtime beloved franchises that dictate that if there has been no attention given to a property after a certain amount of time it goes up for bid. lol (Current owner benefits of course from the sale. They simply risk having it sold out from under them if they decided to completely ignore it for too long.)

[pannoni1]

Even comics themselves aren't immune from this mentality, where certain franchises recycle the plots after a certain period of time along with recurring stories for those who don't notice. TV Tropes' Fleeting Demographic rule explains how

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FleetingDemographicRule?from=Main.SevenYearRule

That said, each brand of TMNT has a slightly dedicated demographic. The children have currently the Nick toon, whereas originally it was the Fred Wolf Show and briefly the Next Mutation to attract the maturing FW audience, and of course most of the Playmates merchandise. Slightly older children had the Archie comics and the current Nick comics. The adolescents have the original comics, the first movie, the 4kids series, and currently IDW. Grown-ups have mostly parental values towards the jokes of the cartoons and most of the comics and focus more on the satircal/parodical aspect via the fanfiction and references along with certain limited releases such as the NECA and Revoltech. Video Games and movies however appeal to a wide range of people. Such a balance of product for different demographics helps to support a stable, profitable franchise that TMNT currently does well for the most part. The biggest problem is having the execution pay off where the target fans enjoy it and is most critical to stability. Too much repetition, stuff that doesn't make sense, and nonsense holds it back. That said, what matters the most IMO is at the top of the executive chain. They provide projects to go forward, and if too corrupt can cause failure.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

IF Disney would remain true to it, the only thing that worries me is they, I feel, might keep an even tighter death grip hold on ownership than what Nick I fear would should they decide to shelve it after a while.

Really, we need special copyright laws for longtime beloved franchises that dictate that if there has been no attention given to a property after a certain amount of time it goes up for bid. lol (Current owner benefits of course from the sale. They simply risk having it sold out from under them if they decided to completely ignore it for too long.)


They probably would keep a tighter rein on ownership, but that might not be a bad thing, either. They have a history of recycling, rereleasing, and/or rebooting many their older properties every ten years or so, regardless of its current popularity. Their "vault" isn't simply a place for properties to rot or be ignored, unlike Nick's. Seriously, how many of Nick's older shows are still remembered or have been rereleased from twenty years ago? Yet Disney does it all the time, even with some of their movies and shows from fifty years ago! And a lot of those get new versions, like the aforementioned Incredible Journey, or the Herbie movies. I'm just waiting for the day someone over at the Mouse House decides to reboot The Cat From Outer Space- it would be hilariously fresh if redone now.... (Also, I recently watched a "leaked" scene from next year's Deadpool movie, and it's FAR from kiddie fare. This gives me further faith that a Disney TMNT would be- amazing....)