William Fichtner confirms Eric Sacks was Shredder originally until reshoots

[Xiewin]

http://www.movieweb.com/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-2-shredder-fichtner

It's no secret that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles went through some pretty intensive reshoots. William Fichtner's Eric Sacks was to be revealed as Shredder in the original iteration of the screenplay, but midway through production, Japanese-American actor Tohoru Masamune stepped into assume the role. When that happened, Eric Sacks was demoted to second-in-command of the Foot Clan. Asked about the changes, William Fichtner had this to say:

"That's true. It did change, didn't it? There are people that could speak better to that, and more eloquently than I. But that was originally the plan. That Eric Sachs was Shredder. As we made the movie, there were some thoughts about telling the story in a different way. The producers would probably be better at explaining that. But what I really wanted to do was find the character of Eric Sachs. When the changes do come along, we ultimately incorporate them and make the movie work. I know that sounds like a very vague general statement to your question. But it is the bottom line. For me as an actor, if there are changes that come along because they think the storytelling might be better in one way or another way, I'm fine with that, you know? Ultimately, we made a little bit of a different movie that first go-around. Then we had some changes. I'm happy to say that when I saw the film for the first time, at the premiere, I thought, 'Okay! This is a better movie.' It was a different movie, but a really good movie. At the end of the day, that's what everyone wanted and I did too."

There is still some speculation that Eric Sacks will eventually become Shredder in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2. William Fichtner won't confirm that, and even if he did, there's a possibility that the story could change between now and when the movie is finally on the big screen. He does confirm that he will return if Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 moves forward. It sounds like that is happening, as Paramount has already set a June 6, 2016 release date and confirmed Dave Green as the director taking over for Jonathan Liebesman. Asked if he'll finally get to become Shredder in the sequel, he says:

[CyberCubed]

Thank god for that. A white man Shredder was so disgusting it made my blood boil even more than Turtle nostrils.

[Autbot_Benz]

Thank god for that. A white man Shredder was so disgusting it made my blood boil even more than Turtle nostrils.

Shut up about the turtle nostrils. It wouldn't surprise me if you secretly enjoy looking at them when nobody is around.

[TrickOrTreater]

Bad ideas and incompetence from beginning to end.

[chrisdude]

I'd like to see Sachs come out as a Kraang. Or a scientist working with them. Bring them out as the origin of the mutagen.

[Leo656]

No idea what they were making from Day One. Except a toy commercial.

[NinjaPug]

I don't know which option is worse:

1) The original plan of having Sacks be Shredder

2) Having a generic Asian be Shredder in a movie rewritten to a point that the story makes no sense

[Commenter 42]

Thank god for that. A white man Shredder was so disgusting it made my blood boil even more than Turtle nostrils.

Hahahahaha.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Happy Holidays Cubed. Try and leave the house if you get the chance. This is proof of the power of the cybercube.

Where are all the Sachs as Shredder deniers? LOL! funny how bit by bit the lie is revised. in 10 years I'm sure some one will admit that this movie was a bitch to make, because no one had any ****ing idea what it was supposed to be about.

Also this was written on Dec 23, 2014 by B. Alan Orange, so take it with a grain of salt.
check the twitter feed here https://twitter.com/balanorange

[Donnieangelo]

I'd like to see Sachs come out as a Kraang. Or a scientist working with them. Bring them out as the origin of the mutagen.
More like an evil Utrom!

[Galactus]

I'm happy to say that when I saw the film for the first time, at the premiere, I thought, 'Okay! This is a better movie.' It was a different movie, but a really good movie. At the end of the day, that's what everyone wanted and I did too.

I hope he's being diplomatic given the final product was less than average (to be kind) just how bad was the movie?

I suppose if we're to take Fichtner at his word this might also put a damper on the movie's aplogists who keep saying that flaws in the movie were down to the changes they made to supposedly appease the fans. That being said I do think he's being diplomatic. I'd speculate some like tne inclusion of a more faithful Shredder to be better some sounded like they were for the worse.

There is still some speculation that Eric Sacks will eventually become Shredder in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2.

Please NO. It sucks for the actor true, to sign on to play the primary antagonist for a series of movies and then to be essentially demoted but it's no baring on him it was just a mistake to cast him as the Shredder in the first place.

I don't want to see him as Krang or a Kraang or Ch'rell or anything like that. Sack's backstory which to be fair was well thought out doesn't really gel with Krang and it's not like his performance really seemed 'alien'.

Again it's unfair but it's best to just assume Sacks was sent to jail and have Fichtner transferred to another Paramount movie. Then again it's interesting that all these actors seem to talk as if the sequel may not be happening. I realise most of them have been in the business long enough to not take anything for granted (this movie certainly showed why) but they still give the impression it's not as definite as their announcement would lead us to believe. Can we hope?

[Aaronardo]

Huh. So the movie was one big mess even BEFORE it was released.

[MrTMNT2012]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

[Galactus]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

How'd you get to that in regards to this interview?

Surely it suggests the exact opposite

[TigerClaw]

This is interesting, But I'm fine with the changes they made through the production, The world just wouldn't accept a white Shredder anyways.

I'm curious on what they will do with Eric Sacks in the sequel. Perhaps he will be the one who perfected the mutagen, and creates Bebop and Rocksteady to take care of the Turtles.

[bushido]

http://www.geeksofdoom.com/GoD/img/2014/06/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-shredder-william-fichtner-530x296.jpg
"I used to be Shredder, then I took a reshoot to the knee"

[BubblyShell22]

You know, if Sacks had been the reincarnation of Shredder, I would have been fine with that as it would have worked better and they could have used the other actor to film the flashback scenes. But sadly, this was not the case, and not only did it ruin the movie to have a separate Shredder but also no Saki/Yoshi rivalry. I wonder if said rivalry was also supposed to be in the film and they scrapped it because they wanted to tell a "better story." Instead they told an awful story.

[TurtleTitan97]

I don't know which option is worse:

1) The original plan of having Sacks be Shredder

2) Having a generic Asian be Shredder in a movie rewritten to a point that the story makes no sense

I'm pretty sure both are equally worst. This movie had the blandest Shredder by far.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

There are people that could speak better to that, and more eloquently than I.

Translation: "I'm POed about it too, but I'm not allowed to say that."

But what I really wanted to do was find the character of Eric Sachs.

Translation: "After being changed from Shredder to some bland evil guy, I had no real desire to be in the movie anymore."

William Fichtner won't confirm that, and even if he did, there's a possibility that the story could change between now and when the movie is finally on the big screen.

I never even thought about this. I mean, that doesn't exactly help the film crew's morale, does it? The thought that everything they're doing might be scrapped in favor of an entirely new story, since that's what happened the first time?

[Powder]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

You being allowed to say things like this is proof that there is no God.

[Bry]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

oh hi

http://s7.postimg.org/npdpb8ha3/tmnt1990crew.jpg

But back to the topic at hand: so, like... is there any theory about what went wrong in this production that hasn't been proven true by now?

Recasting the main villain during last-minute reshoots. Holy crap. This is not competent filmmaking. It just isn't.

I never even thought about this. I mean, that doesn't exactly help the film crew's morale, does it? The thought that everything they're doing might be scrapped in favor of an entirely new story, since that's what happened the first time?

And even then... what kind of movie is it when can you play musical chairs with the casted, major characters and key plot points so easily? Without it even mattering much? Not a good one, that's for sure.

[TigerClaw]

oh hi

http://s7.postimg.org/npdpb8ha3/tmnt1990crew.jpg

So, like... is there any theory about what went wrong in this production that hasn't been proven true by now?

This is not competent filmmaking. It just isn't.
Movies have reshoots all the time.

[IndigoErth]

"I used to be Shredder, then I took a reshoot to the knee"
:lol: Sums it up great.
Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.
Well, some actors. They can't really be blamed for what they were told to do. (Just for bad acting in some case(s)...) Producers on the other hand...

[Bry]

Movies have reshoots all the time.

That's not what I'm talking about. Punching up an action scene or altering a few beats here or there is one thing. But I'm talking about changing the role of major character entirely, including recasting and totally changing plot points involving multiple characters, during last-minute reshoots. How often does that happen? And even when it does - how often is the end result not a total mess?

[TrickOrTreater]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

Horsesh*t.

I wonder if said rivalry was also supposed to be in the film and they scrapped it because they wanted to tell a "better story." Instead they told an awful story.

According to Jonathan Liebesman, no. He said it was too difficult and complicated to do.

[Bry]

Worth noting - this would definitely explain why plot points/scenes hinted at in the first trailer in March were completely absent from the released movie. And rumours of extensive reshoots were circulating in March/April too, right? Including speculation that the movie would be delayed, but hitting that release date was more important than getting it done right. And I could be wrong, but didn't the actor who did wind up playing Shredder announce he was in the movie right around that time as well?

There's a reason the final cut of this thing felt like such a rush job, and this seems to explain it.

[Chris]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

No offence, but this is a joke right? Because that's definitely not the vibe I got from that interview or anything else said by people involved with this movie.

[NinjaPug]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

Is today Opposite Day?

Just goes to show that Platinum Dunes doesn't give a **** about these characters or the TMNT mythology at all.

[TigerClaw]

That's not what I'm talking about. Punching up an action scene or altering a few beats here or there is one thing. But I'm talking about changing the role of major character entirely, including recasting and totally changing plot points involving multiple characters, during last-minute reshoots. How often does that happen? And even when it does - how often is the end result not a total mess?
It happens very often, Sometimes they have reshoots when they do test screenings, If the audience who seen it doesn't like what they saw, They do reshoots to fix them.

[Xiewin]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

Im just going to assume that you're joking.

[NinjaPug]

It happens very often, Sometimes they have reshoots when they do test screenings, If the audience who seen it doesn't like what they saw, They do reshoots to fix them.

The amount of rework that was done to this movie is not common at all. Yes, reshoots happen in nearly 100% of all major studio films. What happened with TMNT goes beyond simple reshoots.

[Autbot_Benz]

Just goes to show these guys care more for the TMNT property than any movie producer before it.

Look I am a fan/defender of the 2014 movie and I have to agree what you said is a load of BS. This is the same company that almost did Alien Turtles

[TheSkeletonMan939]

It happens very often, Sometimes they have reshoots when they do test screenings, If the audience who seen it doesn't like what they saw, They do reshoots to fix them.

Yes, and often reshoots can be very beneficial to a film.

But often it's just removing unnecessary content or changing the ending around. Most reshoots do not entail completely changing the main villain's identity.

The thing that annoys me most is that Bay cited Fox's pregnancy as the need for reshoots, and that she couldn't do all of her action scenes before (she had, like, one, so that was a flimsy excuse in itself).

[Bry]

It happens very often, Sometimes they have reshoots when they do test screenings, If the audience who seen it doesn't like what they saw, They do reshoots to fix them.

Again - there's a difference between commonplace reshoots to rework minor scenes, adjust the flow of the story and punch up the action, and ones extensive enough that they change who the main villain is. Those are two very different things. The former is a pretty standard thing; the latter suggests the entire project is a mess that they're desperately trying to salvage.

The thing that annoys me most is that Bay cited Fox's pregnancy as the need for reshoots, and that she couldn't do all of her action scenes before (she had, like, one, so that was a flimsy excuse in itself).

Bay lied through his teeth about every problem this production ran into, so that's no surprise.

And hell, I don't mind that sort of thing if it's to protect secrets/surprises in the final product, but all of his seemed to be covering for his/his studio's incompetence.

[Shark_Blade]

Pretty sure most people know this already, but I still enjoy Sacks. :tlove:

"Mmhmmhmm...let me look at you" (the way he delivered that line cracks me up) :tlol:

"Draw all of their blood, even if it kills them"

I mean... if he treasures the mutant blood so much, why not keep them alive so he can keep extracting blood from them? But I guess he just got carried away being evil like "let's just kill them all and be done with it" lol :lol: :tlol:

[TigerClaw]

In that interview with Michael Bay, He mention that the tone of the movie was wrong, And they had to fix it, It was too serious, I bet Nickelodeon had something to do with the changes, given that they own the property, and Paramount also owns Nickelodeon, They were probably behind the movie being aimed at kids, To meet Nickelodeon's guidelines.

[TrickOrTreater]

Again - there's a difference between commonplace reshoots to rework minor scenes, adjust the flow of the story and punch up the action, and ones extensive enough that they change who the main villain is. Those are two very different things. The former is a pretty standard thing; the latter suggests the entire project is a mess that they're desperately trying to salvage.

The level the apologists go to defend this movie is pretty astounding.

Even to try to alter the fabric of reality itself.

Bay lied through his teeth about every problem this production ran into, so that's no surprise.

And hell, I don't mind that sort of thing if it's to protect secrets/surprises in the final product, but all of his seemed to be covering for his/his studio's incompetence.

It all begins and ends with Bay.

[TrickOrTreater]

In that interview with Michael Bay, He mention that the tone of the movie was wrong, And they had to fix it, It was too serious, I bet Nickelodeon had something to do with the changes, given that they own the property, and Paramount also owns Nickelodeon, They were probably behind the movie being aimed at kids, To meet Nickelodeon's guidelines.

Uh...no.

That Michael Bay interview makes it very clear that Michael Bay wanted to lighten the tone up.

[TigerClaw]

Uh...no.

That Michael Bay interview makes it very clear that Michael Bay wanted to lighten the tone up.
Which is what Nickelodeon would want, Even the Nick TMNT series has a light tone.

[TrickOrTreater]

Which is what Nickelodeon would want

...which is not at all relevant since it was MICHAEL BAY who wanted to lighten the tone, and Nickelodeon wasn't at all mentioned.

[Bry]

Even the Nick TMNT series has a light tone.

Sure. But it also has backstory involving Hamato Yoshi's murdered wife and stolen daughter, several plotlines involving people struggling with being mutated against their will, and recently showed Leonardo beaten into a coma. And put in the work so that all of those moments had real weight.

Any story can deliver a "light tone" while also delivering compelling drama with real stakes. If the people making it have the talent and/or care enough to put the effort in.

[IndigoErth]

I mean... if he treasures the mutant blood so much, why not keep them alive so he can keep extracting blood from them?
Mutagen in the blood, not the blood itself... he just wants the mutagen back. Limited supply in the Turtles.

Now why they'd assume it to be a successful magic cure for the contamination he'd inflict on the city when they had still been experimenting with it at the time of the fire and it's main result so far seems to be mutating living things... *MASSIVE SHRUG* Like requiring 2014 Raph shoulder size massive.

Also... the amount he got from them should have been TINY considering how small they were when injected.

[pennydreadful]

"I used to be Shredder, then I took a reshoot to the knee"

You being allowed to say things like this is proof that there is no God.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/7c249c6f1453532b178b1d23cb5f3291/tumblr_mf7hbmlJTX1ro5y75o1_r1_400.gif

[Commenter 42]

Mutagen in the blood, not the blood itself... he just wants the mutagen back. Limited supply in the Turtles.

Now why they'd assume it to be a successful magic cure for the contamination he'd inflict on the city when they had still been experimenting with it at the time of the fire and it's main result so far seems to be mutating living things... *MASSIVE SHRUG* Like requiring 2014 Raph shoulder size massive.

Also... the amount he got from them should have been TINY considering how small they were when injected.

Um, this whole mutagene in the blood, is, utterly stupid. I feel compelled to buy a whole crate of biology texts and distribute them.

I hate pseudoscience in films.

[TigerClaw]

Um, this whole mutagene in the blood, is, utterly stupid. I feel compelled to buy a whole crate of biology texts and distribute them.

I hate pseudoscience in films.
Its kind of hard to explain how Mutagen works, Hopefully in the sequel, they perfected it, Since Bebop and Rocksteady will be in it.

[IndigoErth]

Um, this whole mutagene in the blood, is, utterly stupid. I feel compelled to buy a whole crate of biology texts and distribute them.

I hate pseudoscience in films.
Agree, I prefer it has it's affect on simple contact and then they're done with it.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

this..first is..is something we all knew..second i hate to be that guy..but didnt he originally come and say the all his scenes as shredder were done before reshots


sounds like studios trying to coverthere tracks to "show they care"

[Pondslider]

this..first is..is something well knew..second i hate to be that guy..but didnt he originall come and say the all his scenes as shredder were done before reeshoots


sounds like studios trying to cove there tracks to "show they care"

I wouldn't be surprised if they only changed the Shredder because they didn't want the negative publicity of a whitewashed Shredder to show up in the reviews when the movie came out which is why it was done at the expense of the story.

[BubblyShell22]

Horsesh*t.



According to Jonathan Liebesman, no. He said it was too difficult and complicated to do.

Are you f*cking kidding me? What's so complicated about doing a rivalry story between Saki and Yoshi? All you have to do is have Splinter be the reincarnated Yoshi, Sacks be the reincarnated form of Saki, and they both have a rivalry from their human lives. Ugh, I hate these people so much.


Sure. But it also has backstory involving Hamato Yoshi's murdered wife and stolen daughter, several plotlines involving people struggling with being mutated against their will, and recently showed Leonardo beaten into a coma. And put in the work so that all of those moments had real weight.

Any story can deliver a "light tone" while also delivering compelling drama with real stakes. If the people making it have the talent and/or care enough to put the effort in.

Exactly what I was thinking, Bry. The Nick series has better storytelling because you can tell the people behind it actually care about the franchise and want to handle it with care. These PD people care nothing about TMNT and just want to make money.

[Coola Yagami]

Are you f*cking kidding me? What's so complicated about doing a rivalry story between Saki and Yoshi? All you have to do is have Splinter be the reincarnated Yoshi, Sacks be the reincarnated form of Saki, and they both have a rivalry from their human lives. Ugh, I hate these people so much.




Exactly what I was thinking, Bry. The Nick series has better storytelling because you can tell the people behind it actually care about the franchise and want to handle it with care. These PD people care nothing about TMNT and just want to make money.

Reincarnation isn't necessary. Just make Yoshi into splinter especially since the movie wanted to capture the ot vibe. And I still say for all intents and purposes Sachs has no place in a tmnt movie. Let him die.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

These PD people care nothing about TMNT and just want to make money.

Exactly. Their only drive is money.

If they had made a good movie that was just a bad TMNT movie, per se, maybe the fanbase would give it a little more love.

But they didn't even try to make a good movie. This isn't just a bad TMNT movie; it's a bad movie period. They did a quick, lazy, horrible job because they knew that people would buy the expensive movie tickets.

If they want the sequel to make any real money they're going to have to actually do a good job, because I doubt people will fall into the same money trap twice.

[Coola Yagami]

Exactly. Their only drive is money.

If they had made a good movie that was just a bad TMNT movie, per se, maybe the fanbase would give it a little more love.

But they didn't even try to make a good movie. This isn't just a bad TMNT movie; it's a bad movie period. They did a quick, lazy, horrible job because they knew that people would buy the expensive movie tickets.

If they want the sequel to make any real money they're going to have to actually do a good job, because I doubt people will fall into the same money trap twice.

That's the problem. They will. You know they will. Just slap Bebop and Rocksteady in there and that's all you need. The hell with effort. They're gonna score big numbers and sells tons of tickets just by adding those two in the movie alone. They don't even have to try. They can be twice as lazy and not even bother to try and it will rake in the big bucks cause people are stupid.

[Commenter 42]

Agree, I prefer it has it's affect on simple contact and then they're done with it.

At least try, you know, to have it make sense. Mutation occurs on the cellular level, in the genes of the animal. It's science, not magic.

Guess they were to cheap to hire any consultants.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

There's only one point I'm going to make, playing devil's advocate here on the whole 'left out the yoshi/saki backstory... From what Liebsmen said, it was too complicated to put in this particular movie. He never said he wouldn't address it at a later time. As an example I point to the 4 kids series, when splinter tells April (and the new generation of kids watching the show) their origin, he omits the shredder/yoshi part altogether, and it's not touched upon at all until much later in the season. Likewise, the nick cartoon left it out of the first episode, as well. Making it a secondary part of the plot in the second episode. Isn't it even slightly possible the book part was a half, truth, and the Saki/Yoshi connection might not come up in part 2. I know that wasn't originally the plan, but they changed shredder, so...

[IndigoErth]

At least try, you know, to have it make sense. Mutation occurs on the cellular level, in the genes of the animal. It's science, not magic.

Guess they were to cheap to hire any consultants.
Well, you know how it goes... ♫♪ Beauty school film school drop outs... ♬♩

http://i.imgur.com/2TtN4bv.gif

[TrickOrTreater]

There's only one point I'm going to make, playing devil's advocate here on the whole 'left out the yoshi/saki backstory... From what Liebsmen said, it was too complicated to put in this particular movie. He never said he wouldn't address it at a later time. As an example I point to the 4 kids series, when splinter tells April (and the new generation of kids watching the show) their origin, he omits the shredder/yoshi part altogether, and it's not touched upon at all until much later in the season. Likewise, the nick cartoon left it out of the first episode, as well. Making it a secondary part of the plot in the second episode. Isn't it even slightly possible the book part was a half, truth, and the Saki/Yoshi connection might not come up in part 2. I know that wasn't originally the plan, but they changed shredder, so...

No. The "well ifs/but maybes" don't matter. What matters is what we saw in THIS movie and what was said by the director himself. It doesn't matter what he DIDN'T say.

Anything that contradicts what this movie set up, forcing the past lives crap in there(even though a Japanese Shredder now exists in this universe, so you can't do that), will be a retcon of what happened in THIS movie.

Hamato Yoshi doesn't exist in this universe because the filmmakers for this movie COULDN'T do what past filmmakers and even past and current cartoon creators COULD do.

Or, another option, wouldn't do. Because they don't give a crap.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

No. The "well ifs/but maybes" don't matter. What matters is what we saw in THIS movie and what was said by the director himself. It doesn't matter what he DIDN'T say.

Anything that contradicts what this movie set up, forcing the past lives crap in there(even though a Japanese Shredder now exists in this universe, so you can't do that), will be a retcon of what happened in THIS movie.

Hamato Yoshi doesn't exist in this universe because the filmmakers for this movie COULDN'T do what past filmmakers and even past and current cartoon creators COULD do.

Or, another option, wouldn't do. Because they don't give a crap.

Hey, I do agree the movie was mostly lame, and the producers and Bay doesn't care, bu as an IDW fan, I can definitely say the past life stuff is not crap. If they made had made this TMNT film right, it definitely would have fit in there (and Japanese shredder being there doesn't matter, in IDW Saki wasn't reincarnated, he was resurrected by the ooze.)

[IndigoErth]

Honestly, if that backstory was too complicated (for like the first time in forever) for this first one, I think it would be even more complicated to try to address it in sequel(s). Chances are they might come up with a really whacked out concept at that point in order to try to force it in there and complicate it on their own damn selves more than need be, so it may be best to just leave it alone imo.

Still, it makes me *facepalm* over the simple ways some of these details could have been included. Like, as I've said previously, why not just have Yoshi as a lab tech... He destroys the lab, instead of April's father, giving Shredder reason to be against him, and gives him the proximity to the story so that his DNA accidentally ends up involved and affects the mutagen/lab animals in an unexpected way. (Seeing as how they were hunting for a magic cure for a poison, not how to mutate something.)

I think some of these film makers must be purely BIG idea people who have a hard time thinking in small terms when they need to keep something simple. :roll: I guess subtlety is an art form some just don't have...

[Cipher]

The producers would probably be better at explaining that.
Yikes.

No idea what they were making from Day One. Except a toy commercial.
Word.

If they had made a good movie that was just a bad TMNT movie, per se, maybe the fanbase would give it a little more love.
I don't know what this means. A good movie would be a good TMNT movie.

[Candy Kappa]

There's only one point I'm going to make, playing devil's advocate here on the whole 'left out the yoshi/saki backstory... From what Liebsmen said, it was too complicated to put in this particular movie. He never said he wouldn't address it at a later time. As an example I point to the 4 kids series, when splinter tells April (and the new generation of kids watching the show) their origin, he omits the shredder/yoshi part altogether, and it's not touched upon at all until much later in the season. Likewise, the nick cartoon left it out of the first episode, as well. Making it a secondary part of the plot in the second episode. Isn't it even slightly possible the book part was a half, truth, and the Saki/Yoshi connection might not come up in part 2. I know that wasn't originally the plan, but they changed shredder, so...

True, Splinter do states to April that he doesn't remeber his life before being brought to the laboratory. So they could have Splinter getting his memory back in the second movie.

Although, it seems rather moot now, considering the conflict between Splinter and Shredder is over their hidden existence and the Turtles' internal storage of Mutagen. Adding Yoshi to the mix seems rather redundant now, especially since Splinter's martial arts skills comes from... A picture-by-picture Steven Hayes-esque book.

[Coola Yagami]

True, Splinter do states to April that he doesn't remeber his life before being brought to the laboratory. So they could have Splinter getting his memory back in the second movie.



That just means he doesn't remember life as a normal rat, you know, like how the turtles don't remember their thrilling adventures crawling around in a glass bowl in a pet shop.

[Candy Kappa]

That just means he doesn't remember life as a normal rat, you know, like how the turtles don't remember their thrilling adventures crawling around in a glass bowl in a pet shop.

Probably, but he is an adult rat, so he could have had some time before the lab experiments, the turtles looks very juvenile.

[Coola Yagami]

Probably, but he is an adult rat, so he could have had some time before the lab experiments, the turtles looks very juvenile.

True, but unless the sequel decides to throw in the reincarnation monkey wrench, anything past him just not remembering his life as a normal rat is kinda reaching.

[Candy Kappa]

Yeah, and completely unnecessary with the direction they have chosen to do.

Splinter and the Turtles are at odds with Shredder just because. That's what they have been in previous versions and PD don't want to make a story more then "Shredder bad, Turtles good"

[TheSkeletonMan939]

I don't know what this means. A good movie would be a good TMNT movie.

Not necessarily. Iron Man 3 was a bad Iron Man movie, but it had pretty neat action sequences and an intelligent storyline in general.

[Cipher]

Not necessarily. Iron Man 3 was a bad Iron Man movie, but it had pretty neat action sequences and an intelligent storyline in general.
Iron Man 3 is a bad movie.

If it had been a good movie, it would have been a good Iron Man movie.

I have no idea what a "good movie but a bad Ninja Turtles movie" would look like, or vice versa. I don't think such a thing can exist except from the most backwardly prioritized, fan-wankiest perspective.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

There's only one point I'm going to make, playing devil's advocate here on the whole 'left out the yoshi/saki backstory... From what Liebsmen said, it was too complicated to put in this particular movie.


Here is the one problem with that train of thought...Letting them get away with saying.."It was to hard this time" doesnt stop them from saying "its stil lto hard but maybe next time"

these guys at PD dont need defending, they just dont care..this franchise is nothing more that a way to "Make the dolla bill yall"

[Cipher]

Here is the one problem with that train of thought...Letting them get away with saying.."It was to hard this time" doesnt stop them from saying "its stil lto hard but maybe next time"

these guys at PD dont need defending, they just dont care..this franchise is nothing more that a way to "Make the dolla bill yall"
I think it's also fair to call bullsh*t on that, since that exact scenario took no more than a few minutes to be presented perfectly satisfactorily in the 1990 film, and no more than two pages of the first comic. It's also built on easily recognizable ninja/martial arts fiction tropes as far as audience digestion.

They just didn't want to go that route. Which would also be totally okay, except they didn't even commit to their own alternate approach. So instead we got the weird, unexplainable mish-mash we did.

[Raphael232]

it was a terrible choice for that group to make a Ninja Turtles movie to begin with. Other people should be handling the next movie and THE NEXT Reboot. People that actually know about the world and stay true to the story. I still cant get over the fact that they were so huge.

[Galactus]

There's only one point I'm going to make, playing devil's advocate here on the whole 'left out the yoshi/saki backstory... From what Liebsmen said, it was too complicated to put in this particular movie. He never said he wouldn't address it at a later time. As an example I point to the 4 kids series, when splinter tells April (and the new generation of kids watching the show) their origin, he omits the shredder/yoshi part altogether, and it's not touched upon at all until much later in the season. Likewise, the nick cartoon left it out of the first episode, as well. Making it a secondary part of the plot in the second episode. Isn't it even slightly possible the book part was a half, truth, and the Saki/Yoshi connection might not come up in part 2. I know that wasn't originally the plan, but they changed shredder, so...

It all comes down to one pronoun and to be honest we were burned so many times with promises and this movie's gaggle of defenders who were convinced that we'd be getting Yoshi and martial arts and that Saki was there from the get-go etc to put my faith in Leibesman's wonky wording.

True other versions haven't given the full origin all in one go. Even the 1990 movie split it in two with Splinter explaining the mutation aspect to April and then the Saki rivalry to Danny later on in the film.

I just don't see it here. If we weren't going to get a full origin in a movie that all about their origin then I don't hold out any hope in a sequel which has to set up Bebop and Rocksteady, possibly Casey Jones as so on. It's not like there wasn't amply room in the story given they wasted 20 minutes on April's story.

Also I think if they were leaving the door open then they wouldn't have given an alternate origin for their martial arts abilities and plays it mysteriously. It already strains credibility that Splinter happens upon a book on ninjitsu when his enemies will be "ninjas" even morso if in the sequel he has some tie to Hamato Yoshi - another ninja. I'd lovee for them to make the original origin work but I just don't see them doing that unless they establish out Splinter was lying about finding a book which I don't think they'll do.

Either that or just retcon the origin - heck retcon the entire of the movie. Would anyone really care? I mean the majority of the people who liked the 2014 movie claim they did so for little other reason other than it's a TMNT movie. If that's their sole criteria for enjoying it then they'd support any decision a sequel made even if it's disregarding the original.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not a bay or movie defender. the movie was so-so, and they could have done much better. aI was just saying what COULD work at thi point, even though I know they'd never do it.

[Zulithe]

The "better" movie would to have been not to have an Eric Sacks at all, since him not being Shredder makes him totally superfluous and time that could have been used to develop the TRUE Shredder character. But, it's still admirable that they tried to fix it in reshoots. Even though the fixes they patched in were nowhere near what was required to make the film what it deserved to be.

Since we are likely getting a TMNT2, they do have a chance to clean things up a bit more. Not that I have a lot of faith that they can do it. Keeping expectations low is the key for me.

I've long accepted that what they were going for just wasn't for me. I'll still watch them and still hope for a few cool sequences or character moments that ring true for me. I'll cherry pick those best bits and try to appreciate them.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

There's only one point I'm going to make, playing devil's advocate here on the whole 'left out the yoshi/saki backstory... From what Liebsmen said, it was too complicated to put in this particular movie. He never said he wouldn't address it at a later time. As an example I point to the 4 kids series, when splinter tells April (and the new generation of kids watching the show) their origin, he omits the shredder/yoshi part altogether, and it's not touched upon at all until much later in the season. Likewise, the nick cartoon left it out of the first episode, as well. Making it a secondary part of the plot in the second episode. Isn't it even slightly possible the book part was a half, truth, and the Saki/Yoshi connection might not come up in part 2. I know that wasn't originally the plan, but they changed shredder, so...

Well since Liebsmen is out of the picture, is there a possibility that they will retell/retcon the origin story in the sequel even if it might risk confusing the general audience who saw the first one?

[Coola Yagami]

Honestly if I see Sachs in the trailer for the sequel I'm face palming and already declaring this a failure. He has no role in a tmnt movie and he has even less of a reason to return in the sequel than he did even being in it in the first place.

[TrickOrTreater]

Well since Liebsmen is out of the picture, is there a possibility that they will retell/retcon the origin story in the sequel even if it might risk confusing the general audience who saw the first one?

Of course it's possible.

Not probable though.

They don't care enough to do that.

[NinjaPug]

Well since Liebsmen is out of the picture, is there a possibility that they will retell/retcon the origin story in the sequel even if it might risk confusing the general audience who saw the first one?

Liebesman wasn't the problem with the origin (lack thereof) story in the movie. It's the people still attached to the property (Nemec, Applebaum, Fuller, Form) that caused the origin problem.

[TurtleTitan97]

Liebesman wasn't the problem with the origin (lack thereof) story in the movie. It's the people still attached to the property (Nemec, Applebaum, Fuller, Form) that caused the origin problem.

^ This. So much this.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, I imagine you'd have to have new writers, producers, and a company that all agree it needs a do-over. Doubtful... :ohwell:

[BubblyShell22]

There's only one point I'm going to make, playing devil's advocate here on the whole 'left out the yoshi/saki backstory... From what Liebsmen said, it was too complicated to put in this particular movie. He never said he wouldn't address it at a later time. As an example I point to the 4 kids series, when splinter tells April (and the new generation of kids watching the show) their origin, he omits the shredder/yoshi part altogether, and it's not touched upon at all until much later in the season. Likewise, the nick cartoon left it out of the first episode, as well. Making it a secondary part of the plot in the second episode. Isn't it even slightly possible the book part was a half, truth, and the Saki/Yoshi connection might not come up in part 2. I know that wasn't originally the plan, but they changed shredder, so...

No, the Nick cartoon did address it in the first episode where Splinter tells Leo that he lost his wife and Miwa in the fire due to Shredder. Then he tells more when he talks to Raph in "Turtle Temper" and how the rivalry actually began.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

No, the Nick cartoon did address it in the first episode where Splinter tells Leo that he lost his wife and Miwa in the fire due to Shredder. Then he tells more when he talks to Raph in "Turtle Temper" and how the rivalry actually began.

No, he didn't. Remeber, the first ep was a two-parter. Like I said in my first post, he brought up the Saki connection in episode 2, not episode one.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

No, he didn't. Remeber, the first ep was a two-parter. Like I said in my first post, he brought up the Saki connection in episode 2, not episode one.

eh...techincality id say thats stretching it...while yes the first ep is a "Two-parter" it is advertised and even sold as an hour long pilot

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

eh...techincality id say thats stretching it...while yes the first ep is a "Two-parter" it is advertised and even sold as an hour long pilot

I agree, though I only brought that up because I said the saki connection was in part two my original post, and then someone 'corrected' me on that miniscule point. Not worth quibbling over. Moving on...


I still think the whole Yoshi back story can be saved for a sequel. Heck, I would've loved Baxter being the villain for the first movie where they introduced April, then show Shredder in a scene at the end.

[BubblyShell22]

Actually, Panda, he elaborated more on the rivalry later on, but he did bring up that he lost his wife and daughter due to Shredder. Watch "Rise of the Turtles" again and pay attention to when Splinter is talking to Leo about all leaders having to face failure and how he narrates the story before they go to the Kraang base.