What would you do with a reboot, with a catch...

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Okay, I know this has been asked before, but I thought I'd toss it out there again with a little catch attached. Let's say you got to do your own TMNT reboot, and you get to set your own themes and tone for the film. What would you do? But unlike the last thread, there's a catch...

No retreading the original movie, and no adapting Mirage 1#. No flashbacks to Saki and Yoshi, no first meeting with April or Casey. Shredder can be the villain, but he's already at war with the turtles. You have to start with the tmnt already in place, and no 'cycle of vengeance' themes- you have to move the story ahead, not track over old ground. This doesn't have to be continuation of anything, though it can be if you wish.

I wanna see what both movie fans and movie haters alike come up with...

[plastroncafe]

NHWjlCaIrQo

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

to be fair..if thats the "catch" then its not a reboot....its a just a sequel with a new team

[TrickOrTreater]

to be fair..if thats the "catch" then its not a reboot....its a just a sequel with a new team

Right?

If it's a reboot, that means you're starting over. Brand new.

If you have Shredder and Yoshi(either dead or as Splinter), you have to set up why they(or Splinter and Shredder) hate each other. Which include flashbacks.

Or, hell, you start the movie off with a full on telling of when Saki killed Yoshi and Shen and Splinter escaped, or like the nick toon where Yoshi is trying to start a new life in America after Saki killed Shen in Japan. That's not been done before. Then, after Yoshi or Splinter and the Turtles are mutated, you jump ahead 15 years and start the movie.

This whole entire universe hinges on the blood feud between Saki and Yoshi. If you're starting with a brand new movie, that must be included.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Right?

If it's a reboot, that means you're starting over. Brand new.

Exactly


I understand the not wanting to see the turtles origin in full depth again...but you cant just skip it completely its a major part of the story.

this sounds more like what Terminator 3, Jurassic Park 3, Batman Returns and Batman and Robin were

movies with new team in the same franchise following the original movie


the term reboot wouldnt apply to this idea as youd still be tied to the previous attachment

[Bry]

no 'cycle of vengeance' themes

See, to me that's like making a Spider-Man movie with no "power and responsibility" theme, or X-Men without the whole "protecting a world that hates and fears them" part. It's at the heart of it as a concept - the further you stray from it the weaker it gets.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Really? the fugitoid arc, baxter and the mousers, the four fragments story from season 2 of the OT, the battle nexus from 4kids, future shark from archie so many good stories with no ties to the origin that could be adapted with minor continuity tweaking...

...and you MUST do the first story again!

:roll: I'm sorry, but :roll:

[plastroncafe]

And every single one of those has a "Cycle of Vengeance" component to it.

I'm still stuck on the parameters of the exercise.
I mean, you tell us we can't retread ground, but we're more than welcome to continue what's already been started...which would kind of require retreading ground.

Again: The only way to win, is not to play.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

...and you MUST do the first story again!

:roll: I'm sorry, but :roll:

yes the first story must be done to some extent

because the is how to story starts

Krypton has to explode, Peter has to be bit by a spider, Waynes parents must be killed, Banner must get hit by radioactive waves, Rogers gets Super soldier ,Optimus and the Autobots land on earth

they are parts of the story that must be covered to some extent

you cant just start in the middle of an arc and expect everyone to follow...especially ones you are suggesting...remember you are looking at it from the eyes of a fan, true we know the story ins in outs


and even if you start in the middle..with already established characters..you have to go back and tell how it happened..thats what 2k3 did

[Bry]

Really? the fugitoid arc, baxter and the mousers, the four fragments story from season 2 of the OT, the battle nexus from 4kids, future shark from archie so many good stories with no ties to the origin that could be adapted with minor continuity tweaking...

...and you MUST do the first story again!

:roll: I'm sorry, but :roll:

Lovely attitude...

Sure - there are other stories to tell. But you don't build upward before you've laid the foundation, do you? The characters, their future plots, and their world are all informed by and rely on how it all began. That's why it's so important to establish themes and have a strong backstory. It's what makes it all hold together and gives it weight. Hell, it's what makes it an actual story and not just a bunch of zany stuff just... happening.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

It's simple, take the formula of The Dark Knight, and apply it here.

The Turtles have been fighting crime for a year or two, and you introduce a new villain who's been terrorizing the city for the last few weeks or months.

I want to see them take from the original and have the Foot recruiting younger members, or introduce Krang, and take from the nick cartoon, and have Krang provide cyborg Foot Soldiers. I want the Turtles to USE their weapons, and having them kill robots is the way to go because they can't show Leo and Raph stabbing people.

I would maybe even have a villain like Tigerclaw for this movie, have him show up and reveal towards the end he's from Dimension X and introduce Krang and have a full scale invasion to end the movie and have a cliff hanger ending.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

but even Batman begins showed the origin of Bruces rise to Batman...His parents death

sure it wasnt the first thing we saw and it wasnt long and drawn out but we saw it

[TrickOrTreater]

Really? the fugitoid arc, baxter and the mousers, the four fragments story from season 2 of the OT, the battle nexus from 4kids, future shark from archie so many good stories with no ties to the origin that could be adapted with minor continuity tweaking...

...and you MUST do the first story again!

:roll: I'm sorry, but :roll:

...most of which you can have and still begin with how and why the Turtles are the Turtles.

Which begins with Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki's blood feud.

Which we've only seen in flashbacks or, in the case of the new movie, not at all.

So if it's all the same to you, I'd like to see THAT done full justice in a modern movie before we move on to friggin Future Shark.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

one problem with that theory: TMNT 2007-MAYBE CONTINUATION, MAYBE NOT. we don't know the back story there for certain. and when i said no 'cycle of vengeance' theme, I meant move on from those particular events, not don't bring them up altogether.

But whatever, I give up.

[TrickOrTreater]

one problem with that theory: TMNT 2007-MAYBE CONTINUATION, MAYBE NOT. we don't know the back story there for certain.

Yeah, and not including it or anything else Turtle related and instead making up some stone warrior/monster crap from whole cloth is a reason it's a fairly mediocre movie.

Even though everything actually Turtle related they got right.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

its pretty clear 2007 is a continuation...of what is more the question...it can be both movies or 2k3 series..personally i call it the 4th movie rather than a new story...but there is also the prequel comics to it


but its not a stand alone story...and even then 2007 doesnt skip the origin in clearly mentions it at the begining

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

It's simple, take the formula of The Dark Knight, and apply it here.

The Turtles have been fighting crime for a year or two, and you introduce a new villain who's been terrorizing the city for the last few weeks or months.

I want to see them take from the original and have the Foot recruiting younger members, or introduce Krang, and take from the nick cartoon, and have Krang provide cyborg Foot Soldiers. I want the Turtles to USE their weapons, and having them kill robots is the way to go because they can't show Leo and Raph stabbing people.

I would maybe even have a villain like Tigerclaw for this movie, have him show up and reveal towards the end he's from Dimension X and introduce Krang and have a full scale invasion to end the movie and have a cliff hanger ending.

Thanks, that pretty close to what i was looking for, thanks.

[Warboss74]

You can certainly show killing in a PG-13 film. Guardians of the Galaxy had zero issue with a ton of killing. Drax killing Korath, Groot impaling multiple soldiers ended up being one of the bigger laughs, Yondu dropped a platoon of soldiers, etc. There's plenty of killing in other PG-13 films, but GOTG was just something that came to mind.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

but even Batman begins showed the origin of Bruces rise to Batman...His parents death

sure it wasnt the first thing we saw and it wasnt long and drawn out but we saw it

How many freaking ORIGIN STORIES DO WE NEED?!

...most of which you can have and still begin with how and why the Turtles are the Turtles.

Which begins with Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki's blood feud.

Which we've only seen in flashbacks or, in the case of the new movie, not at all.

So if it's all the same to you, I'd like to see THAT done full justice in a modern movie before we move on to friggin Future Shark.

Let's just have every Turtle movie deal with the origin story you want, I hope they make 4 of them in the next 10 years, all in great detail, the origin of Splinter and Shredder, never show the Turtles, just Splinter and Shredder's "blood feud", because without Splinter and Shredder's backstory it's impossible to make a story with the Turtles. The reason why the original cartoon, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th movies, 2k3 cartoon, all suck because they didn't deal with Splinter and Shredder in EVERY episode, and in every line of dialogue.

Or maybe you should be yelling from the mountain top about a Splinter solo flick! Then those dumb turtles won't muck up the story for you. Since it's so effing hard to follow along with if you don't get YOUR precious origin story.

You sound like the people who can't like Man of Steel because Pa Kent died in a tornado and not from a heart attack...IT'S NOT THE ORIGIN THAT'S BEEN TOLD 34545345 TIMES MAAAAAAAAN! I NEED TO SEE IT IN THE MOVING PICTURES IN THE NEXT 3 YEARS! THEN IN 10 YEARS I CAN COMPLAIN THAT IT'S BEEN 10 YEARS SINCE I SAW THE ORIGIN OF SPLINTER AND SHREDDER!

You can certainly show killing in a PG-13 film. Guardians of the Galaxy had zero issue with a ton of killing. Drax killing Korath, Groot impaling multiple soldiers ended up being one of the bigger laughs, Yondu dropped a platoon of soldiers, etc. There's plenty of killing in other PG-13 films, but GOTG was just something that came to mind.

Guardians of the Galaxy is a Marvel product, not a Nickelodeon product. Tell me about the Nickelodeon movies that have killing.

[TrickOrTreater]

Yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah buncha bullsh*t buncha bullsh*t buncha bullsh*t

Well said.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke View Post
Yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah buncha bullsh*t buncha bullsh*t buncha bullsh*t

Well said.

I know one thing that sucks more than the new movie:
Your boring cry fests, and failed attempts at insults.

[TrickOrTreater]

I know one thing that sucks more than the new movie:
Your boring cry fests, and failed attempts at insults.

Sweet burn, bro. Sweet burn.

[Xav]

this sounds more like what Terminator 3, Jurassic Park 3, Batman Returns and Batman and Robin were

movies with new team in the same franchise following the original movieBut all those movies had returning cast members. None of them had a totally new team.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

With this thread open again, I will just say this, with no offense to anyone; yes, you can make a new TMNT movie, with Baxter or Krang or the rat king as the villain, and not retell the origin story. Just like the 2007 movie say a few lines about their origin at the beginning and move on. There is no good reason to reestablish an origin older fans already know from mirage, 4kids, and the OT, and kids know from the nick cartoon. No. Good. Reason.

[plastroncafe]

Sure there is, it's called making a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie.
It's having respect for the origins of the franchise, and not just giving lip service to them in order to churn out a hack of a movie to turn a few bucks.

Having respect for the subject matter should be first and foremost in one's mind before undergoing an any artistic endeavor.

It's clear to me that the only thing that mattered in the making of the Platinum Dunes movie was making money.

[Warboss74]

Guardians of the Galaxy is a Marvel product, not a Nickelodeon product. Tell me about the Nickelodeon movies that have killing.
Nickolodeon had zero problems selecting Platinum Dunes to make the film, and all they've ever done before TMNT was horror flicks. Nickolodeon certainly doesn't have issues with sex jokes, underage drinking, and other non family friendly topics. Nickolodeon being involved is a moot point anyways when the comparison is PG-13 comic book film to PG-13 comic book film.

Okay, I know this has been asked before, but I thought I'd toss it out there again with a little catch attached. Let's say you got to do your own TMNT reboot, and you get to set your own themes and tone for the film. What would you do? But unlike the last thread, there's a catch...

No retreading the original movie, and no adapting Mirage 1#. No flashbacks to Saki and Yoshi, no first meeting with April or Casey. Shredder can be the villain, but he's already at war with the turtles. You have to start with the tmnt already in place, and no 'cycle of vengeance' themes- you have to move the story ahead, not track over old ground. This doesn't have to be continuation of anything, though it can be if you wish.

Like others have pointed out this is a poor catch for a reboot. The turtle's rivalry with the Foot is integral to the entire mythos for most people and refusing to touch on the origins at all to jump into them fighting each other for years does little to make a viewer care for their rivalry. It doesn't mean that it has to be the first film in a rebooted film franchise. Elements should certainly be present, and Splinter should at least acknowledge more to the turtles origin if he doesn't explain it all in the film. Beyond that the turtles can go on any adventure you want them to.

You could structure the start of a turtles film franchise around the crazy Sci Fi stuff and still get into the rivalry and payoff in future films. Some alterations to my concept for the film would be Splinter tracking down leads to the whereabouts of his Master's killer is attacked by a monster in the sewers. When he doesn't return the young turtles venture out on their own against Splinters orders to track him down. This would lead to an eventual confrontation with the monster, Leatherhead. Now you could go different directions as to why Leatherhead attacked Splinter. I love Leatherhead struggle with his rage, and would certainly be the Leatherhead I would present. He can have completely succumbed to it and be feral therefore the final villain, or he can become an ally to find his family. (The Utroms) In the first case, Splinter learns to trust in his sons, so he tells them why he's training them. (Sets up the foundation for the confrontation in a future film) In the latter, they help him find the Utroms. (Maybe this reveals the alliance between the Shredder and Krang?) I'm really just spit balling ideas for the film and have no clear or coherent conclusion for the second option.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Nickolodeon had zero problems selecting Platinum Dunes to make the film, and all they've ever done before TMNT was horror flicks. Nickolodeon certainly doesn't have issues with sex jokes, underage drinking, and other non family friendly topics. Nickolodeon being involved is a moot point anyways when the comparison is PG-13 comic book film to PG-13 comic book film.


Like others have pointed out this is a poor catch for a reboot. The turtle's rivalry with the Foot is integral to the entire mythos for most people and refusing to touch on the origins at all to jump into them fighting each other for years does little to make a viewer care for their rivalry. It doesn't mean that it has to be the first film in a rebooted film franchise. Elements should certainly be present, and Splinter should at least acknowledge more to the turtles origin if he doesn't explain it all in the film. Beyond that the turtles can go on any adventure you want them to.

You could structure the start of a turtles film franchise around the crazy Sci Fi stuff and still get into the rivalry and payoff in future films. Some alterations to my concept for the film would be Splinter tracking down leads to the whereabouts of his Master's killer is attacked by a monster in the sewers. When he doesn't return the young turtles venture out on their own against Splinters orders to track him down. This would lead to an eventual confrontation with the monster, Leatherhead. Now you could go different directions as to why Leatherhead attacked Splinter. I love Leatherhead struggle with his rage, and would certainly be the Leatherhead I would present. He can have completely succumbed to it and be feral therefore the final villain, or he can become an ally to find his family. (The Utroms) In the first case, Splinter learns to trust in his sons, so he tells them why he's training them. (Sets up the foundation for the confrontation in a future film) In the latter, they help him find the Utroms. (Maybe this reveals the alliance between the Shredder and Krang?) I'm really just spit balling ideas for the film and have no clear or coherent conclusion for the second option.

WARBOSS, AT LEAST THAT WOULD BE A NEW STORY! Good job! :)

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Sure there is, it's called making a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie.
It's having respect for the origins of the franchise, and not just giving lip service to them in order to churn out a hack of a movie to turn a few bucks.

Having respect for the subject matter should be first and foremost in one's mind before undergoing an any artistic endeavor.

It's clear to me that the only thing that mattered in the making of the Platinum Dunes movie was making money.

I've never argued that Bay's flick wasn't a cash grab. I'm only saying you could start a new TMNT movie series without starting over with the origin again. If the 2007 movie had used a more familiar set of villains, or adapted a story from mirage or Archie or 2k3, I bet it would have been far better received. (not saying it didn't have it's own issues, though) Anew TMNT movie, even if it threw the bay universe out the window, does not need to be a mirage #1 retelling, nor does it need to remake the first film.

I'm not arguing for saving bay's film, I'm arguing for something NEW from turtle movies now!

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

this sounds more like what Terminator 3, Jurassic Park 3, Batman Returns and Batman and Robin were

movies with new team in the same franchise following the original movie


the term reboot wouldnt apply to this idea as youd still be tied to the previous attachment

But all those movies had returning cast members. None of them had a totally new team.

Terminator 3 had only Arnold returning, new writer, new director, new production company.

I've never seen Jurassic Park 3, can't comment.

I think you meant Batman Forever, because Batman Returns was Tim Burton and Keaton returning.

Batman Forever was for the most part a reboot. They had an all new cast, the only roll over was Alfred and Commissioner Gordon. New director, writer etc... Even the city was drastically changed.

Batman & Robin is the sequel to Batman Forever, Batman was recast, but for the most part is a sequel.

All of those movies that did a soft reboot are beyond terrible. There is just no reason to rehash the origin of the turtles in anyway.

I can't stand fanboys who want the movies to be taken directly off the pages of their personal favorite comic or cartoon. That goes for any comic book franchise. Why is it ok for comic books to retell stories in different ways over and over, or a cartoon series tell their own origin, but when a movie is made it HAS to be exactly like *insert favorite origin story*?! Why can't the movie create it's own story? We got the origin we got, it didn't erase the origin you like. Can we please move on now?

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

you know what you get when you jump right in adding new characters and not telling the origin story


Next Mutation


and i have a guilty "love" of that series, but im not so blind i cant see its flaws

but lets be honest NM had no backbone..it relied on its audience knowing where the turtles came from..and yes at the time Turtle mania wasnt over yet..sure it was maybe not as a strong but people knew turtles.

Then you have the addition of all these new characters...Venus,Dragonlord..other new villains...that with a proper set up could have been amazing additions to the TMNT world

but thats the thing..you need to set up the world before you can add to it or it becomes a Cluster*Fudge* of its own existence


as warboss said..you dont have to jump right into it but its elements should be present

[Warboss74]

WARBOSS, AT LEAST THAT WOULD BE A NEW STORY! Good job! :)
My point is the elements you want of your catch don't have to be thrown out when rebooting a film franchise. All I did was change out some details from the film synopsis I gave in another thread while keeping the core of the story the same. If you haven't seen my take, here's a quick rundown.
1. Opens with the death of Tang Shen and Hamato Yoshi
2. Splinter became their pet after the Exile to New York, so he doesn't know who the Foot or the Shredder are beyond the killers of his family.
3. That lack of knowledge drives the general plot without dealing with the conclusion of that rivalry.
4. The lead that breaks through is taking the events from The Passing, which foils a ninja assassination. The ninjas are a Foot ninjas.
5. Now knowing who they're looking for, their new ally Hattori helps track down further leads. This leads to the Purple Dragons. Through them they find the link to the Shredder and the Foot.
6. Splinter explains their mission, and they still have work to do. This closes out the film.

In the first option with Leatherhead I presented, the turtles can meet a human ally or two in their hunt for Splinter. It could be Casey Jones and/or Angel because their connections to the Purple Dragons and thus the Shredder would solve the arc of finding Yoshi and Shen ' s killer. (A fight with the PD in the middle could serve as a substitute for The Passing like Leatherhead in the second example) In the second example, the Utroms are the connection to finding the Shredder. Points 1-3 and number 6 (Slight changes to details) remain in both Leatherhead examples, but it breaks your catch to use them. The origin retelling also violates it because in either example because they have to talk about where they came from with their new allies.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

My point is the elements you want of your catch don't have to be thrown out when rebooting a film franchise. All I did was change out some details from the film synopsis I gave in another thread while keeping the core of the story the same. If you haven't seen my take, here's a quick rundown.
1. Opens with the death of Tang Shen and Hamato Yoshi
2. Splinter became their pet after the Exile to New York, so he doesn't know who the Foot or the Shredder are beyond the killers of his family.
3. That lack of knowledge drives the general plot without dealing with the conclusion of that rivalry.
4. The lead that breaks through is taking the events from The Passing, which foils a ninja assassination. The ninjas are a Foot ninjas.
5. Now knowing who they're looking for, their new ally Hattori helps track down further leads. This leads to the Purple Dragons. Through them they find the link to the Shredder and the Foot.
6. Splinter explains their mission, and they still have work to do. This closes out the film.

In the first option with Leatherhead I presented, the turtles can meet a human ally or two in their hunt for Splinter. It could be Casey Jones and/or Angel because their connections to the Purple Dragons and thus the Shredder would solve the arc of finding Yoshi and Shen ' s killer. (A fight with the PD in the middle could serve as a substitute for The Passing like Leatherhead in the second example) In the second example, the Utroms are the connection to finding the Shredder. Points 1-3 and number 6 (Slight changes to details) remain in both Leatherhead examples, but it breaks your catch to use them. The origin retelling also violates it because in either example because they have to talk about where they came from with their new allies.

So this isn't a TMNT movie? It's a Splinter movie?

Also that plot is better to spread out in a tv show over a season, there is too much for a movie.

I don't get it when people complain about April being the main protagonist then want he movie to be all about Splinter and Shredder....

[Bry]

So this isn't a TMNT movie? It's a Splinter movie?

Also that plot is better to spread out in a tv show over a season, there is too much for a movie.

I don't get it when people complain about April being the main protagonist then want he movie to be all about Splinter and Shredder....

The Saki/Yoshi backstory is the entire reason the Turtles are ninjas, and the entire reason they're connected to the Shredder at all. It's a key part of their motivation. Again, it's the foundation, and you build from there. But Splinter is the one who made them who they are, so even though he's not the main character, he should be extremely important to their story and help drive the plot. Right?

Nobody's saying they want "a Splinter movie" - they just want a movie that's actually about something and uses the strongest material we have.

[TrickOrTreater]

The Saki/Yoshi backstory is the entire reason the Turtles are ninjas, and the entire reason they're connected to the Shredder at all. It's a key part of their motivation. Again, it's the foundation, and you build from there.

Nobody's saying they want "a Splinter movie" - they just want a movie that's actually about something and uses the strongest material we have.

Nah, much better for the movie to be entirely about Megan O'Fox and have the entire thing connect back to her and hinge on her.

That was truly the best course of action.

Truly.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

The Saki/Yoshi backstory is the entire reason the Turtles are ninjas, and the entire reason they're connected to the Shredder at all. It's a key part of their motivation. Again, it's the foundation, and you build from there. But Splinter is the one who made them who they are, so even though he's not the main character, he should be extremely important to their story and help drive the plot. Right?

Nobody's saying they want "a Splinter movie" - they just want a movie that's actually about something and uses the strongest material we have.

I just want the Turtles saving the day and kicking ass. I do not care about April, or Splinter's history. The bottom line is the Turtles are crime fighters, I want to see them fight some crime. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I'm saying it's called The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it should be about them all the way through. There is absolutely no necessity to have Splinter and Shredder have a past. The Joker and Batman never had a past, they just created their own hatred for each other. It's simple Batman does good, and Joker does bad...that creates conflict. Turtles fight for the people who can't fight, Shredder wants to rule the world and hurt people...There is the conflict.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

but splinter is the turtles history


thats like superman with no krypton
batmans parents still alive
mighty morphin power rangers with no zordon
Prime with no megatron
parker with no spider bite
banner with no radiation

[Powder]

There is absolutely no necessity to have Splinter and Shredder have a past.

...That's literally the entire reason the TMNT exist, dude. They learned martial arts to avenge their master, who learned martial arts to avenge his master. The crux of that, is Shredder.

Can you do a version without that? Well, yeah, but that's like a sandwich without bread. It just ain't right.

[Bry]

I just want the Turtles saving the day and kicking ass. I do not care about April, or Splinter's history. The bottom line is the Turtles are crime fighters, I want to see them fight some crime.

...okay, except that's not a story. Characters with no backstory, no connections, and no internal conflict aren't even really characters.

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, but I'm saying it's called The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and it should be about them all the way through.

When has there ever been a good story about a character (or characters) without a supporting cast, or backstory, or personal motivation, or significant connections to other people with their own stories and motivations? Like, ever?

There is absolutely no necessity to have Splinter and Shredder have a past. The Joker and Batman never had a past, they just created their own hatred for each other. It's simple Batman does good, and Joker does bad...that creates conflict. Turtles fight for the people who can't fight, Shredder wants to rule the world and hurt people...There is the conflict.

Except Batman still has a backstory that completely informs who he is, what he does, and how he reacts to the events that occur in the story. "He's the good guy" makes for paper-thin, terrible characters. A movie needs to be more than that - otherwise it might as well be two hours of gameplay footage from a fighting game.

The kind of "story" you describe gives the audience no reason whatsoever to care about the characters or their struggle. Sorry, but that completely misunderstands what a story even is. You need more than that. You just do.

[TrickOrTreater]

...okay, except that's not a story. Characters with no backstory, no connections, and no internal conflict aren't even really characters.



When has there ever been a good story about a character (or characters) without a supporting cast, or backstory, or personal motivation, or significant connections to other people with their own stories and motivations? Like, ever?



Except Batman still has a backstory that completely informs who he is, what he does, and how he reacts to the events that occur in the story. "He's the good guy" makes for paper-thin, terrible characters. A movie needs to be more than that - otherwise it might as well be two hours of gameplay footage from a fighting game.

The kind of "story" you describe gives the audience no reason whatsoever to care about the characters or their struggle. Sorry, but that completely misunderstands what a story even is. You need more than that. You just do.

"He good guy, he bad guy, they fight, good guy win, me happy."

[Jester]

Reading WarBoss' movie proposal made something POP in my mind. You know something that the 2k3 series did that just NOW dawned on me? They connected for probably the first time the more martial arts aspects of the TMNT and their feud with Shredder and the Sci-fi elements with the Utroms with the creation of Utrom Shredder. Yes, he was probably initially a cheat to make the decapitation in Return to New York pass censors, but it also kinda streamlined the whole origin.

[TrickOrTreater]

Reading WarBoss' movie proposal made something POP in my mind. You know something that the 2k3 series did that just NOW dawned on me? They connected for probably the first time the more martial arts aspects of the TMNT and their feud with Shredder and the Sci-fi elements with the Utroms with the creation of Utrom Shredder. Yes, he was probably initially a cheat to make the decapitation in Return to New York pass censors, but it also kinda streamlined the whole origin.

Agreed but Shredder as an Utrom is just...no thanks.

I'm just very partial to the idea of the badass ninja master villain who is human and is badass and deadly despite of that.

It's just so cool.

[Jester]

Agreed but Shredder as an Utrom is just...no thanks.

I'm just very partial to the idea of the badass ninja master villain who is human and is badass and deadly despite of that.

It's just so cool.
Oh, I agree. Utrom Shredder is NOT my favorite verison of the character. You could almost do something similar by kinda smashing 4kids and Fred Wolf. Make Shredder a badass human ninja who teams with a renegade Utrom named Krang to not only conquer the earth but also universe at large.

[TrickOrTreater]

Oh, I agree. Utrom Shredder is NOT my favorite verison of the character. You could almost do something similar by kinda smashing 4kids and Fred Wolf. Make Shredder a badass human ninja who teams with a renegade Utrom named Krang to not only conquer the earth but also universe at large.

THAT is my ideal. Ch'rell's personality but with Krang's name.

So cool.

[Bry]

IDW Krang, sort of? That's probably my favourite version of the character.

[TrickOrTreater]

IDW Krang, sort of? That's probably my favourite version of the character.

I'm looking forward to reading these some day.

Past lives and lab creation aside.

[Jester]

I'm looking forward to reading these some day.

Past lives and lab creation aside.
Waltz pulls it off fairly well....much better than anything in the movie.

[TrickOrTreater]

Waltz pulls it off fairly well....much better than anything in the movie.

Is the astronomically high chance of all the Turtles' and Splinter's past lives wound up in four turtles and a rat that happened to be in the exact same laboratory that also happened to be genetically experimenting on them explained at all?

[Jester]

Is the astronomically high chance of all the Turtles' and Splinter's past lives wound up in four turtles and a rat that happened to be in the exact same laboratory that also happened to be genetically experimenting on them explained at all?
Um.....mulligan?

(Not that I know of....no.

[TrickOrTreater]

Um.....mulligan?

(Not that I know of....no.

Bah! Humbug!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Their reincarnations were driven by Fate... Splinter prayed to Buddha... oh, and there are super powerful mystical beings (Rat King, Kitsune) at work. I have no trouble accepting it in the comics. How well the reincarnation angle would work in the movie, though... I doubt Platinum Dunes would even try.

Is the astronomically high chance of all the Turtles' and Splinter's past lives wound up in four turtles and a rat that happened to be in the exact same laboratory that also happened to be genetically experimenting on them explained at all?

[TrickOrTreater]

Their reincarnations were driven by Fate... Splinter prayed to Buddha... oh, and there are super powerful mystical beings (Rat King, Kitsune) at work. I have no trouble accepting it in the comics. How well the reincarnation angle would work in the movie, though... I doubt Platinum Dunes would even try.

Hmm.

That's...odd, I guess.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

i am not to far into it..still only on volume 5 but Splinter seems to be the one who remembers the most...from what i get he is very sure the turtles are his reincarnated sons..while the turtles have no memory of anything

[Commenter 42]

Agreed but Shredder as an Utrom is just...no thanks.

I'm just very partial to the idea of the badass ninja master villain who is human and is badass and deadly despite of that.

It's just so cool.

Exactly. I never liked that particular bend.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

i am not to far into it..still only on volume 5 but Splinter seems to be the one who remembers the most...from what i get he is very sure the turtles are his reincarnated sons..while the turtles have no memory of anything


Leonardo does. In his micro issue, he has flashes of his mother. This is before vol. 5.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Leonardo does. In his micro issue, he has flashes of his mother. This is before vol. 5.

ah...see i havent grabbed any of the micro series...do to an ex who tossed all my comics, i only recently got back into the story

[Xav]

Yes, he was probably initially a cheat to make the decapitation in Return to New York pass censors, but it also kinda streamlined the whole origin.I don't think he was initially just a cheat, it seems like he was planned fairly early.
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/blast-from-past-573-may-2-2002-re-new.html

[Leo656]

Some of the other conversations in the thread are also getting close to "Well, why even call it (X) if it's going to be completely different?" territory. Insofar as what Is and Isn't important and "Why must adaptations hew so closely to the source material?"

Because... because that's the story. That's what they wrote and the story everyone knows. That's the only reason you NEED. Y'know why people don't read comics? Reboots and retcons. "I want to like these stories and these characters, but I have NO IDEA what's going on because they keep changing the who/what/where/when/how and I just don't have any idea what's what." Y'know why those same people like movies and TV shows based on comics? Not because they're "different', although they usually are, but more because they streamline and simplify things we already know, in a way that makes it easier for people to understand. People LIKE the familiar, they simply like seeing stories told in different ways across different mediums. The appeal is seeing "impossible" things that only exist on paper suddenly coming to life. You do it right and you don't HAVE to change anything, just trim some of the loose threads and everybody's happy and everybody wins.

I'm not a huge fan of "Call it the same thing but make it all brand new and different". You can't call it the same thing, then, because it's not. I'd argue that Yoshi and Saki's rivalry - which, as has been pointed out, is the entire reason for the "ninja" in "Ninja Turtles" to begin with - is a pretty big pillar of the material. Beyond that, if a person tries to change something that's been so strongly established, on some level you're insisting your "new" ideas are "better". That's the fact. On some level, you're insisting your idea is better than what's been established, otherwise there's no need to go to great lengths to change it. In this movie's case, it was most certainly NOT "better".

Again, some things do get tinkered with any time a property has been around a long time, but I'd definitely argue some things are hard-lined. "I just wanna see Turtles be funny and do martial arts and I don't care how we get there" is just fine, for some, but it's also an extremely shallow view of the material, especially from a story standpoint. The story they have/had is fine. They definitely tried to fix what wasn't broken and ended up breaking it themselves.

That said, I'm not married to the movie HAVING to have an origin story, since most people know the gist of it. Rather, I'd have preferred they tried to move the story forward instead of wasting a movie just to force their "new and different" take on the origins down people's throats. If they had made almost the exact same movie but said it was "five years in the future" from where the old movies left off... it'd STILL be a huge mess BUT it would have sat a lot better with a bunch of people, most likely. Even having a different guy as Shredder would have made infinitely more sense, for example.

So yeah, I agree we need to move on from the origin but I DON'T agree you can just do whatever you want to the story and say it's the same thing. Definitely not.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

Some of the other conversations in the thread are also getting close to "Well, why even call it (X) if it's going to be completely different?" territory. Insofar as what Is and Isn't important and "Why must adaptations hew so closely to the source material?"

Because... because that's the story. That's what they wrote and the story everyone knows. That's the only reason you NEED. Y'know why people don't read comics? Reboots and retcons. "I want to like these stories and these characters, but I have NO IDEA what's going on because they keep changing the who/what/where/when/how and I just don't have any idea what's what." Y'know why those same people like movies and TV shows based on comics? Not because they're "different', although they usually are, but more because they streamline and simplify things we already know, in a way that makes it easier for people to understand. People LIKE the familiar, they simply like seeing stories told in different ways across different mediums. The appeal is seeing "impossible" things that only exist on paper suddenly coming to life. You do it right and you don't HAVE to change anything, just trim some of the loose threads and everybody's happy and everybody wins.

I'm not a huge fan of "Call it the same thing but make it all brand new and different". You can't call it the same thing, then, because it's not. I'd argue that Yoshi and Saki's rivalry - which, as has been pointed out, is the entire reason for the "ninja" in "Ninja Turtles" to begin with - is a pretty big pillar of the material. Beyond that, if a person tries to change something that's been so strongly established, on some level you're insisting your "new" ideas are "better". That's the fact. On some level, you're insisting your idea is better than what's been established, otherwise there's no need to go to great lengths to change it. In this movie's case, it was most certainly NOT "better".

Again, some things do get tinkered with any time a property has been around a long time, but I'd definitely argue some things are hard-lined. "I just wanna see Turtles be funny and do martial arts and I don't care how we get there" is just fine, for some, but it's also an extremely shallow view of the material, especially from a story standpoint. The story they have/had is fine. They definitely tried to fix what wasn't broken and ended up breaking it themselves.

That said, I'm not married to the movie HAVING to have an origin story, since most people know the gist of it. Rather, I'd have preferred they tried to move the story forward instead of wasting a movie just to force their "new and different" take on the origins down people's throats. If they had made almost the exact same movie but said it was "five years in the future" from where the old movies left off... it'd STILL be a huge mess BUT it would have sat a lot better with a bunch of people, most likely. Even having a different guy as Shredder would have made infinitely more sense, for example.

So yeah, I agree we need to move on from the origin but I DON'T agree you can just do whatever you want to the story and say it's the same thing. Definitely not.

I'm just quoting you because you touched on a lot of things I wanted to reply to.

I don't want "no story" "no character" but to insinuate that the ONLY way to have "story" and "character" is to have the very specific origin story you like is absurd. This movie has Splinter explain, Shredder and the Foot have been terrorizing the city for years. He is inspired by the book to train, and teach the Turtles to fight. He says "People of New York will look upon you as their only hope". This does not disqualify their reasons for fighting the foot, because it's not the one you like. It's a noble cause. Superman has no reason to do what he does, but he has the powers to do good, so he does good. To me that's more noble than revenge. I actually kind of like the fact they fight because it's the right thing to do, instead of we're fighting for the revenge of Splinter, and if we end up saving the city, meh that's cool as well...

Leo you said people like cartoon, movie, or tv adaptations of comics because it has a layer of familiarity, but that's only true to people who know the source material. I love the Walking Dead, and didn't read one issue of the comic until the end of season 2. You guys have to realize when a tv show, or movie is made, they are trying to reach a broader audience. They are trying to reach the people who don't want to sit and read a comic book. Comic books have the time to flesh things out that movies do not. I've said this a few times, the Nick toon is doing a pretty great job of fleshing out the story of Splinter and Shredder. It's very in depth, and a movie cannot do the story justice. So when I go see a movie, I want as little to no origin as possible so I can just enjoy the story they're trying to tell. A movie I hated but really liked the way they did the origin, was The Incredible Hulk with Ed Norton, they did the origin through the opening credits. Just like TMNT, it was quick, it let you know where they're coming from and why the characters are doing what they're doing.

[Cryomancer]

Warning: I am expressing myself poorly and am not sure that I really ahve a point here but here's a bunch of words on this subject I wrote without structure. Basically I see this argument as having two important sides that are both correct in certain ways.

1) We have yet to get a truly accurate adaptation of source comics. the first movie and 2k3 get close but are still ultimately "for kids" and are thus not quite there, for better or worse. Obviously a lot of people want to see a proper adaptation happen eventually. Others don't, others want a OT style movie, or insert whatever other "source material" you want here, whatever.

2) We have had many, many reboots or re-imaginings or whatever you want to call them. So we've seen like what, a dozen variations on an origin story by now. Some things change around but it mostly is the same events roughly so it can very easily feel like it's getting old at this point and a waste of screen time to see yet another telling / variant. TMNT has been part of pop culture for 30 years now, at what point do you no longer need to tell an origin every time you make a story about them?

Movies can work without explaining things. Look at Star Wars. Back in the day Darth Vader had like a two-line back story and lightsabers took like less than a minute to figure out and there were plenty of ships and planets that had no exposition to explain them at all. And everyone went nuts for it no problem because cool stuff was happening. The prequels decided to explain everything to the point where they made things retroactively uncool!

Hell if they need another origin at this point how about one where the TMNT don't even know where the hell they are from or what they are? The TCRI/movie 2 story touches on this a little bit I guess. TMNT goes all the hell over the place even in just Mirage, there's no reason they couldn't make a movie sometime in space, or traveling through time, or the bad future flooded earth with grown up Shadow and crazy hermit Raphael. It doesn't have to be fighting Shredder in New York every single time.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

In other words, no origin is better than a half-assed origin.

[Warboss74]

So this isn't a TMNT movie? It's a Splinter movie?

Also that plot is better to spread out in a tv show over a season, there is too much for a movie.

I don't get it when people complain about April being the main protagonist then want he movie to be all about Splinter and Shredder....

It's a more streamlined presentation of a story idea I posed on a previous topic. It is a bit Splinter heavy in the drive of the story, but like many have pointed out is the whole foundation the mythos is built on. The 2014 film does a terrible job of establishing any reason to become ninjas, and why they should care about the outside world. It's the turtles are the good guys and the Shredder is the bad guy, so they got fight each other. There is nothing making us care about their conflict. The closest to that presentation in the MCU is Captain America, but even his views are heavily informed by growing up a weakling being bullied all the time.

As for making it fit in a film, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't think it's worth the time to debate/discuss it with someone who's been on the offensive like you have in this thread.

[The Boston Ninja Turtle]

Very well said war boss ,

It's true no hero/villain combo fight just because they do...even Saturday morning cartoons have a little more meat than that

And you are right Steve Rogers wanted to fight because he hates bullies and wanted to "stand up for the little guy" but at the same time remember he is the product of a time when a very big war was going on...he is a soldier and the son of soldiers

He wanted to make his parents proud

Like you said about the turtles and splinter..that is the underlining thread to...he isn't just a star spangled banner and a shield

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

I just want to be clear, I am not advocating the current origin story, and I'm not condemning a more in depth one. I'm simply saying It doesn't really matter.

[Jester]

Most of what "worked" in this movie, for me was based on my prior knowledge/relationship with the characters. Not sure if this is what PGP is getting at, but you could....probably...do a TMNT movie where the ground work is assumed, and just get into a new story proceeding from what is already known about the characters and their relationships.

Heck, I'd almost say if they re-boot Spider-man and Batman again, do we really need the deaths of Uncle Ben and the Waynes to be seen on screen? (Almost) EVERYONE knows the back story, just get on with the new story....or at least maybe show it in small flash-back snippets.

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

Yes Jester, The Batman v Superman movie is completely bypassing Batman's origins, and actually the '89 Batman only sprinkled the death of Bruce's parents through out and never really touched on it until Batman Forever.


At this point we are getting a sequel, they can build on the one they created, but to add reincarnation and whatever else some people want is pointless, those same people say the plot isn't clear, so what would the plot look like if they start cramming all your favorite origin stories into the sequel?

[Bry]

Most of what "worked" in this movie, for me was based on my prior knowledge/relationship with the characters. Not sure if this is what PGP is getting at, but you could....probably...do a TMNT movie where the ground work is assumed, and just get into a new story proceeding from what is already known about the characters and their relationships.

Heck, I'd almost say if they re-boot Spider-man and Batman again, do we really need the deaths of Uncle Ben and the Waynes to be seen on screen? (Almost) EVERYONE knows the back story, just get on with the new story....or at least maybe show it in small flash-back snippets.

I think it's important to establish or touch on the backstory/motivations of the characters, even if it's very brief. You don't always need to cover the origin again. But even sequels tend to touch on/remind the audience why the characters do what they do, because even if they and their stories are iconic, every story should be able to stand on its own and cover the essential character work. Just do it in a natural way that progresses things forward. A writer can do that in a matter of seconds if they're good.

[Warboss74]

Most of what "worked" in this movie, for me was based on my prior knowledge/relationship with the characters. Not sure if this is what PGP is getting at, but you could....probably...do a TMNT movie where the ground work is assumed, and just get into a new story proceeding from what is already known about the characters and their relationships.

Heck, I'd almost say if they re-boot Spider-man and Batman again, do we really need the deaths of Uncle Ben and the Waynes to be seen on screen? (Almost) EVERYONE knows the back story, just get on with the new story....or at least maybe show it in small flash-back snippets. I don't think any reboot should rely on past knowledge when presenting it's story. At some point they have to address where they came from, how they came to be, or what motivated them to do what they do. It can be little snippets here or there if that's how you want to present it or it could be a full origin story spanning the length of the film. It all depends on the story you wish to tell, but at some point it's got to be brought up.

Yes Jester, The Batman v Superman movie is completely bypassing Batman's origins, and actually the '89 Batman only sprinkled the death of Bruce's parents through out and never really touched on it until Batman Forever.


At this point we are getting a sequel, they can build on the one they created, but to add reincarnation and whatever else some people want is pointless, those same people say the plot isn't clear, so what would the plot look like if they start cramming all your favorite origin stories into the sequel?
I'd be willing to bet that Batman's origin is touched upon in the film. No one has argued against a flashback telling of the origin, and doing a completely different adventure. It's just going to be one of those questions that comes up when you meet someone new, especially if they're walking talking turtles or vigilantes in spandex.

Unfortunately, we're getting a sequel, but the reincarnation aspect is something people are looking at to clean up the terrible narrative that the first one was. Even people who loved the film are in favor of adding the reincarnation origin with one voice in particular being the absolutely sure that's where they're going. I'd rather flush the turd down the toilet and start fresh, but that's me.

[Commenter 42]

Most of what "worked" in this movie, for me was based on my prior knowledge/relationship with the characters. Not sure if this is what PGP is getting at, but you could....probably...do a TMNT movie where the ground work is assumed, and just get into a new story proceeding from what is already known about the characters and their relationships.

Heck, I'd almost say if they re-boot Spider-man and Batman again, do we really need the deaths of Uncle Ben and the Waynes to be seen on screen? (Almost) EVERYONE knows the back story, just get on with the new story....or at least maybe show it in small flash-back snippets.

This makes perfect sense. No question that a new story would be refreshing. It's when they tinker with the old story to fit the new that I take issue. It destroys a little of the history of what you already know, and as someone rightly pointed out jars you out of the narrative. The worst of it for me was MOS recently, or even Transformers, with their arrival to earth as opposed to a revival on earth.

As Leo said, it really is thrilling to watch a cartoon transform into a real world film, in some intangible, wish fulfillment way. The job of a filmmaker in comicbook films is one of translation, not reinvention. It really is a different approach to moviemaking compared to an entirely new concept.

[TrickOrTreater]

Most of what "worked" in this movie, for me was based on my prior knowledge/relationship with the characters. Not sure if this is what PGP is getting at, but you could....probably...do a TMNT movie where the ground work is assumed, and just get into a new story proceeding from what is already known about the characters and their relationships.

Heck, I'd almost say if they re-boot Spider-man and Batman again, do we really need the deaths of Uncle Ben and the Waynes to be seen on screen? (Almost) EVERYONE knows the back story, just get on with the new story....or at least maybe show it in small flash-back snippets.

Actually, that's what we're getting at some point in Batman/Superman. They filmed a scene with the Waynes and Bruce coming out of the theater showing The Mark of Zorro.

Either through a flashback or what have you. But yeah, that's happening.

[Commenter 42]

Actually, that's what we're getting at some point in Batman/Superman. They filmed a scene with the Waynes and Bruce coming out of the theater showing The Mark of Zorro.

Either through a flashback or what have you. But yeah, that's happening.

But that's actually pretty cool. Referencing the proper source, not some half-baked idea for convieniance.

Works for me.

[TrickOrTreater]

But that's actually pretty cool. Referencing the proper source, not some half-baked idea for convieniance.

Works for me.

Oh I don't mind it. I never mind seeing the origin. And I think Thomas Wayne will actually have a mustache this time!

[Leo656]

I just want to be clear, I am not advocating the current origin story, and I'm not condemning a more in depth one. I'm simply saying It doesn't really matter.

...to you. To most people It Totally Matters. Clearly.

And good job Trick for pointing out that they indeed filmed a flashback scene for BvS involving the Wayne murder, one that for once is comics-accurate (I'll forever argue that you can't simply remove the Zorro influence, as it's 100% of the reason Bruce decided to become a masked vigilante and not Something Else). Although "Begins" did a good job with it, but I'm not personally a fan of the "Bruce is scared of bats" angle, that felt oddly tacked-on.

I was gonna mention that they'd filmed that scene but I was sleepin'. They actually kind of made a big deal out of it in the media a few weeks back.

I'm not totally against stories "joined in progress" but it depends. I'd argue that with TMNT there are already TOO MANY variations on the origin, and what hurts things isn't that they keep retelling it, but rather, that every time they do they tack something else on, diluting the story needlessly and confusing people who don't already know it once they see how many contradictory versions there are.

You gotta remember, most people aren't Us. They don't embrace and scrutinize and analyze Every version of a property. Most People casually watch a show or movie about TMNT or Batman or Superman, and when they see a contradictory version, they go, "Wait, so which one is 'real'? Because I thought it was different?" Most people can only accept one "correct" version of events and you have to take that into account when you're adapting these things for a wider audience.

As I said before, it's entirely why more people don't enjoy comics and super-heroes and stuff like that in general. Too many contradictory series of events. Just because most of us can embrace "It's Just A Different Version", that's not how most people think, at all. Most people hear "reboot" or "retcon" or "reimagining" and they mentally check right the hell out.