Ways to improve the Red Sky seasons?

[Prowler]

As we all know, the Red Sky seasons were a way to spark some interest in the FW series again. There were some changes like the sky suddenly turning red and the show having more action and a more serious tone. Also, April and the Turtles suffered a bit of character design change, especially April. And oddly enough, her design was slightly changed again in season 9. We also see some new characters and villains introduced. The ones in season 8 didn't show up or get mentioned ever again. Titanus and the H.A.V.O.C. mutants actually got an arc tho. 3 eps in an 8 episode only season? Not bad at all.

But the real shock was in season 9. At the time, I thought "Turtle Trek" had been the last episode. But then, turns out there were more episodes. When I first saw the title "The Unknown Ninja" I was like "WOAH!". It did look promising... but it simply turned out to be Carter. And then, we get a new villain, Dregg. I expected the Turtles to get rid of him in either that episode or in the following one. I thought it was just gonna be a mini-arc, but turns out he was there to definitely replace Shredder and Krang. It didn't feel much like the Ninja Turtles anymore. Also, the cast had been thinned out. No more Shredder, Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady, Irma, Vernon or Burne. Not even appearances from secondary villains such as Leatherhead and Baxter Stockman. Only the Rat King got one episode, but then again, the writers seemed to like him a lot. The changes were too sudden and I can see why many fans were turned off by them. Dregg and Carter debuted by the time this show was on life support, and they're barely remembered in TMNT history these days, especially Carter. So this main villains change was kinda disappointing to me. The show had not changed its formula much after all.

Season 10 was better than 9, and not just animation wise. Also, it was great to see Dregg flip out and become madder and madder. That 3-part arc with Shredder and Krang returning was nice as well. Especially how they seemed to be on the same page. It's like that time away from battling the Turtles helped them become friends or something.

One particularly weird aspect of these 3 final seasons is the fact that they had 8 episodes each. It's fine for the first season of a show to have a short number pf episodes(the pilot season only had 5, per example) but why did did the last 3 seasons of the FW series have 8 eps each? Season 8 had a finale, but season 9 and 10 might as well have been the same season.

Now, what could have been improved? Well, first of all, replacing the main villains ended up not helping the show much ratings wise. And neither did turning the sky red to give a Batman TAS vibe to the show. It felt like a different series and didn't have a distinctive style like its previous seasons had. But to be fair, being a kids cartoon, you gotta have a main villain. The thing is, Dregg was painfully generic and forgettable compared to Shredder and Krang who are iconic villains. And whilst Shredder is in every TMNT incarnation, the same cannot be said for Krang, and yet people will always remember him. Another problem was Carter being another forgettable character. A Marty Stu at best. When you think of most of this show characters, you can tell what's unique and distinctive about them, but Carter was generic. Not a bad character but just kinda generic and unmemorable. And who told the Turtles they needed a sidekick? Wasn't April good enough? Or couldn't Casey give a hand in an episode or two. Yes, I know Carter was a computer and science genius... but so was Donatello. Oh, and scratch those awful mutations. They were pointless and detrimental to the Turtles. I still cant' believe they wasted 2 episodes on the Turtles trying to fix Leonardo's mutation.

I think a new main villain could have been written better, and some older characters should have made an appearance or two in seasons 9 and 10. Also, more villains like in season 8 would have been good for the sake of variety. And maybe focusing more on the ninja aspect of the Turtles could have been interesting as well. Or hell, maybe even try to adapt something from the source material. It'd have been toned down for kids, obviously, but good writing could have made those adaptations decent.

Don't get me wrong, I still like the final two seasons but I've always thought that "Turtle Trek" should have been the final episode of the series. By the time "Divide and Conquer" was out, we knew that Shredder and Krang were still alive in Dimension X and could always come back later. While in "Turtle trek" we could speculate that the plant had destroyed the Technodrome and killed both while it was at it.

Thoughts?

[CyberCubed]

Other than not have all the old villains fade away, there really wasn't much else they could have done. The TMNT fad was pretty much over by then and the show was only getting 8 episodes a season.

It seems like Fred Wolf would have ended the show earlier but wanted it to hit an iconic 10 seasons so they kept it going.

[Prowler]

Other than not have all the old villains fade away, there really wasn't much else they could have done. The TMNT fad was pretty much over by then and the show was only getting 8 episodes a season.

It seems like Fred Wolf would have ended the show earlier but wanted it to hit an iconic 10 seasons so they kept it going.
I guess they simply wanted to milk the cashcow until the last drop.

Also, none of the Red Sky characters got any action figures, did they? And wasn't the last toyline released in 1995, one season before the show was over? As far as I know, many people who grew up watching the series still aren't aware of the last 3 seasons. I guess they weren't well promoted and/or weren't as widely available as the previous 7 were.

I was very interested when I read on the forums that there plans for the FW series finale to be an animated film. I wonder how that would have turned out.

[Coola Yagami]

It's too bad they never decided to go into actual fighting. They wanted to compete with batman and such and yet they continued to use dumbed down fighting and silly monsters. Maybe if they upped the animation budget it could have had 2k3 style fighting with actual martial arts and such.

[Prowler]

It's too bad they never decided to go into actual fighting. They wanted to compete with batman and such and yet they continued to use dumbed down fighting and silly monsters. Maybe if they upped the animation budget it could have had 2k3 style fighting with actual martial arts and such.
Yeah, they really went full sci-fi in the last couple of seasons, didn't they? Which is odd since the turtles used their weapons quite often in the 7th season, the last one before Red Sky. Explosions and laser guns are cool and all, but let's not forget that the title has the word "ninja" in it. And speaking of that... Splinter accepting to train Carter out of the blue was kinda forced. And how did he know about Hamato Yoshi and his relation to the Turtles, anyway?

[turtlefanforever]

that's simple. More Kronos. Had such an interesting back story. Still want to know how he knew splinter and where they lived. There's just so much more to tell with him. Still probably one of my top 10 episodes of the series.

[Prowler]

that's simple. More Kronos. Had such an interesting back story. Still want to know how he knew splinter and where they lived. There's just so much more to tell with him. Still probably one of my top 10 episodes of the series.
It was a fun episode indeed. As for him knowing the location, he probably stalked the turtles for awhile. Which brings another question: How didn't he know about their mutations and Carter, then?

[Coola Yagami]

And why didn't splinter bebop and rocksteady double-mutate? And Carter's mutation made no sense at all. He wasn't a mutant anything, he basically turned into a super hero.

[Prowler]

And why didn't splinter bebop and rocksteady double-mutate? And Carter's mutation made no sense at all. He wasn't a mutant anything, he basically turned into a super hero.
Well, bebop and Rocksteady weren't in season 9, their last episode being "Turtle Trek", season's 8 finale. So whether they got affected or not, it doesn't really matter. Splinter not getting affected was weird, though. But since the mutations were so pointless, I'm glad Splinter got away with it. As for Carter, he accidentally spilled mutagen on his hand as he as leaving the Lair in a rush to help out the Turtles. But hey, at least his mutation saved the Turtles a few times.

[Coola Yagami]

Well, bebop and Rocksteady weren't in season 9, their last episode being "Turtle Trek", season's 8 finale. So whether they got affected or not, it doesn't really matter. Splinter not getting affected was weird, though. But since the mutations were so pointless, I'm glad Splinter got away with it. As for Carter, he accidentally spilled mutagen on his hand as he as leaving the Lair in a rush to help out the Turtles. But hey, at least his mutation saved the Turtles a few times.

I know that. I was referring to whatever the hell that thing was that he mutated into. He wasn't any kind of mutant animal or anything he turns into some kabuki powerhouse version of himself. Just made no sense.

[Prowler]

I know that. I was referring to whatever the hell that thing was that he mutated into. He wasn't any kind of mutant animal or anything he turns into some kabuki powerhouse version of himself. Just made no sense.
Oh you meant it in that way. In that case you're right. Then again, if he had mutated into an animal he'd probably have mutated into... a turtle. :o

[CyberCubed]

I know that. I was referring to whatever the hell that thing was that he mutated into. He wasn't any kind of mutant animal or anything he turns into some kabuki powerhouse version of himself. Just made no sense.

They said the mutagen that mutated the Turtles was unstable, Bebop and Rocksteady were mutated by a completely different batch of mutagen by Shredder later.

So the only question is why Splinter didn't mutate too, I think this is actually brought up in the first ep of Season 9 but they don't bring it up again

[Coola Yagami]

They said the mutagen that mutated the Turtles was unstable, Bebop and Rocksteady were mutated by a completely different batch of mutagen by Shredder later.

So the only question is why Splinter didn't mutate too, I think this is actually brought up in the first ep of Season 9 but they don't bring it up again

I actually think they said he might mutate too but then they never brought it up again.

[Prowler]

I actually think they said he might mutate too but then they never brought it up again.
Yep. Donatello told Splinter more or less this: "Your mutation might get unstable too, master."

[CyberCubed]

I think Splinter mutating into that werewolf design Peter Laird made once would have been cool for a single episode.

[Prowler]

Also... why didn't H.A.V.O.C. recruit mutants like Mondo Gecko, Leatherhead or hell, even bebop and Rocksteady? I know that Titanus had a mutant making machine, but I don't recall it being explicitly mentioned that he created every mutant that was a member of H.A.V.O.C.

One thing I liked about Red Sky was the turtles being outcasts again and feeling wary of mankind as a whole, especially Raph and Don. That's how I like things to be. Between seasons 4 and 6 their presence got ridiculously accepted to the point of the Turtles having normal jobs in that episode were Splinter pretends to leave them. Great episode, though.

[sdp]

What do you mean by improving the Red Sky season? Personally for us or in order for it to have been successful?

Because if its the former there really is not much they could've done which is why they turned out the way they did. I mean the fad peaked in S4 and while still strong and very big it meant it was only coming down from there and MM Power Rangers came out not long after which only speeded up the process. Cartoons had also changed a lot since the late 80s and we were seeing more mature shows which the turtles were competing on. So the show had already run its course by 1994 and the slightly darker take of S7 is probably the result of that. So while a shadow of their former self the show still had a name and a fanbase so that's the only reason it ran for those last three seasons. They weren't afraid to make changes anymore since they correctly assumed that doing more of the same wouldn't do any favors to the franchise but a new take might work which is why they revamped the show in the "red sky" seasons. Having old villains wasn't going to help bring back anyone but entirely new villains might so that's what they tried, even if it didn't work it was a better strategy than the already sinking ship one last chance and of course it didn't work but the turtles name was able to carry it for those 3 seasons but not much after that.

Yeah we would've all preferred to have seen the villains we knew and loved but this was a chance for them to do something different and maybe hit gold and the franchise still had long legs after all by 1996 Power Rangers while still popular hadn't been the iconic show that they had once been. Even if it had tried to continue it would've been quickly murdered after all this when Playstation and N64 were hitting it big, Nickelodeon was at its highest influence they were just different times not to mention only 2 years before Pokemon hit.

As far as the actual seasons they needed better writing many times the stories were just boring, not enough comedy but not enough drama, it was generic and there were many other shows that were doing a better job telling similar stories.

[Prowler]

What do you mean by improving the Red Sky season? Personally for us or in order for it to have been successful?

Both but mostly in a personal way. After all, as you've mentioned, there really wasn't much that they could have done to grab new viewers. The show was on life support and it was a mater of time before the network pulled the plug.

I know the Turtles were huge in their prime, but it's amazing how a western animated series lasted almost 200 episodes and was the longest running of all time when it ended until The Simpsons surpassed it two years later. Wouldn't be surprised if South Park had surpassed the FW series since then either.

[Leo656]

I kinda liked those seasons, but a lot of it definitely felt like they took one step forward, and then a bunch of steps sideways. A lot of the better ideas weren't given the attention they deserved, and stuff like Carter was crammed in despite nobody really asking for it.

I thought the tone was a welcome change-up, though. They had completely exhausted the "goofy" setting and cartoons like that weren't what was selling by 1994 anyways. I can see why some fans aren't in love with what was a pretty jarring and abrupt shift in tone, but it was literally something they needed to do if they wanted to get those last couple seasons in. The most popular cartoons at that point were almost all "straight" action/adventure cartoons. It felt like the right move, but a little bit too late.

I think it would have been better if they hadn't completely shifted focus to a bunch of new characters right at the end, and rather stayed consistent by using mostly familiar villains slightly updated to fit the more serious vibe. The entire series was a self-reverential nostalgia act by that point, anyways, it couldn't hurt to do the same thing but "played straight" for once. I just think they asked the audience to accept too much change too soon, with the new art style, new music, the Turtles as outcasts again, secondary mutations, new supporting cast, all new villains, completely different sense of action versus humor. It was like you went away for the summer and when you watched the show again, it felt like you missed three or four seasons instead of actually picking up from where it left off.

[CyberCubed]

The designs for the Turtles and April in Seasons 8 and 10 were good. Season 9 had a different animation studio so they moved more cartoony or so in that season.

[Prowler]

I kinda liked those seasons, but a lot of it definitely felt like they took one step forward, and then a bunch of steps sideways. A lot of the better ideas weren't given the attention they deserved, and stuff like Carter was crammed in despite nobody really asking for it.

I thought the tone was a welcome change-up, though. They had completely exhausted the "goofy" setting and cartoons like that weren't what was selling by 1994 anyways. I can see why some fans aren't in love with what was a pretty jarring and abrupt shift in tone, but it was literally something they needed to do if they wanted to get those last couple seasons in. The most popular cartoons at that point were almost all "straight" action/adventure cartoons. It felt like the right move, but a little bit too late.

I think it would have been better if they hadn't completely shifted focus to a bunch of new characters right at the end, and rather stayed consistent by using mostly familiar villains slightly updated to fit the more serious vibe. The entire series was a self-reverential nostalgia act by that point, anyways, it couldn't hurt to do the same thing but "played straight" for once. I just think they asked the audience to accept too much change too soon, with the new art style, new music, the Turtles as outcasts again, secondary mutations, new supporting cast, all new villains, completely different sense of action versus humor. It was like you went away for the summer and when you watched the show again, it felt like you missed three or four seasons instead of actually picking up from where it left off.
Yea, in 1993, the show was still an 80s show to the core. I guess that's what you mean with the nostalgia bit. Must have felt like a timewarp to the 80s by some people who had stopped watching years before. And at the time, the 80s were remembered as a cheesy silly era and not fondly remembered like they are these days... although these days people mostly remember the 80s that never really existed. Or just the good parts. Must have been a fun decade, though.

The show obviously didn't fit the mentality of the 90s where people wanted entertainment to be more real and less fantasized. They wanted grunge rock, reality shows and gangsta rap. Not Ninja Turtles and Hulk Hogan anymore.

[CyberCubed]

Batman: TAS starting in 1992 and then the huge Power Ranger fad at the same time was obviously the one-two punch which killed the last of TMNT's popularity at the time.

If by some miracle TMNT survived 1996...it would have been destroyed by 1998 when Pokemon burst onto the scene.

[Prowler]

Batman: TAS starting in 1992 and then the huge Power Ranger fad at the same time was obviously the one-two punch which killed the last of TMNT's popularity at the time.

If by some miracle TMNT survived 1996...it would have been destroyed by 1998 when Pokemon burst onto the scene.
The TMNT popularity peak must have been in 1990, no? First live-action film and the 1990 season with about 50 episodes. Secret of the Ooze was quite a hit as well, so I'm guessing that 1990-1991 was when TMNT was at its peak. I'm sure it was already pretty big by 1989 since the NES game sold about 4M units worldwide(well maybe not all in the same year, but still...) with only the 3 SMB and the 2 Zelda games outselling it.

[Refractive Reflections]

I'll just repost this position of mine:

From a writing standpoint and considering the direction of the series in 1993 & 1994, the series had to evolve with the changing landscape of cartoons as children's cartoons became more action-based and darker in tone. (I enjoyed the Red Sky tone of the series, but as I've said before I think the bar was set so high in the past seasons that the Red Sky episodes would seem a bit of step back compared to seasons 1-7.)

But anyways...
since the landscape was changing, they had to change with the times and I believe even David Wise himself said the whole chasing Shredder, Krang, and the Technodrome theme was getting old by then, which is the reason for the series having Dregg and ignoring the Technodrome's condition. I think after Season's 8 unimpressive ratings, it would appear to be more of motivation to having something new for the OT Turtles outside of Shredder, Krang, and the Technodrome (even after the darker, Red Sky tone) and use more elements from the more popular kids' shows of the time.

But I agree that the change of villains, tone, and loss of the Channel 6 crew was too abrupt, and should have had a smoother transition throughout Seasons 8 and 9, but that seems a bit difficult with only 8 episodes per season and with a series no longer on the top of viewership ratings.

The second mutations and Carter I didn't mind, and I actually enjoyed the second mutations somewhat since it gave a little more to their adventures on top of defeating the villain with each episode.

I think if Dregg had some backstory to him and wasn't so apparently seen as an imitation to Power Rangers' Zedd, he could have had a more favorable reception. At least the series developed his character into losing his sanity in season 10, and these red sky seasons developed a stronger form of continuity that we hadn't seen since the first and second seasons.

Well, bebop and Rocksteady weren't in season 9, their last episode being "Turtle Trek", season's 8 finale. So whether they got affected or not, it doesn't really matter. Splinter not getting affected was weird, though. But since the mutations were so pointless, I'm glad Splinter got away with it. As for Carter, he accidentally spilled mutagen on his hand as he as leaving the Lair in a rush to help out the Turtles. But hey, at least his mutation saved the Turtles a few times.
I think it was the Turtles' blood (or specifically Donatello's, which was strangely green :-?), or some bodily fluid (that still had mutating properties? :-?), since Donatello used a microscope to look at his cells mutating. So it's storywriting "permissible" that Carter spilled the green liquid from the flask onto himself and mutated into having machine-abilities (after touching his motorcycle) since it wasn't the actual Krang mutagen itself.

If it was the actual Krang mutagen itself, Carter would have mutated with another living organism then. But whatever... :P

[Prowler]

Exactly, Refractive Reflections. The show needed a change, but it should have been gradual and not abrupt. The small number of episodes per season didn't leave them any other choice, though. Maybe they should have began slowly changing things from season 7 or even 6?

You sure it wasn't? I vaguely recall Donatello referring to it as "the leftovers of the mutagen that had mutated us" or something like that. And it was in the first episode of season 9 iirc. It's been some years since I've watched it, but I'm 99% sure he said something like that.

...Man, hard to believe how I still remember plenty of lines from the OT. And I'm not only talking about Raphael's or Krang's funny one-liners. But ordinary dialogue as well. Hell, I still remember every line from "Turtle Tracks" and "Enter: The Shredder".

[sdp]

What was the dominating thing on TV after MMPower Rangers and before Pokemon? I only remember Nickelodeon being very big since it was all I watched, Rugrats and the other Nicktoons dominated my TV. Outside of shows I do remember other fads. I know in other countries like Latin America and Europe Dragon Ball Z was a huge fad during that era but that didn't come to the US until Pokemon. Outside of TV I definitely remember tons of fads at that time from console games to Tamagotchi's which dominated conversations at school.

But yeah while so many changes might've alienated the diminishing fans showing them more of the same would've had a similar outcome in viewership. Sometimes people like to blame specific things on the demise of shows or other properties but those things are usually done to save the show from dying. So yeah many "jumping the shark" moments are actually attempts at last gasps for breath at a dying show and sometimes it works like with Scrappy-Doo and Scooby which you can say what you want about him but he kept the Scooby franchise alive for many years.

[Refractive Reflections]

Exactly, Refractive Reflections. The show needed a change, but it should have been gradual and not abrupt. The small number of episodes per season didn't leave them any other choice, though. Maybe they should have began slowly changing things from season 7 or even 6?

You sure it wasn't? I vaguely recall Donatello referring to it as "the leftovers of the mutagen that had mutated us" or something like that. And it was in the first episode of season 9 iirc. It's been some years since I've watched it, but I'm 99% sure he said something like that.

...Man, hard to believe how I still remember plenty of lines from the OT. And I'm not only talking about Raphael's or Krang's funny one-liners. But ordinary dialogue as well. Hell, I still remember every line from "Turtle Tracks" and "Enter: The Shredder".

Okay :P, I saw the episode "The Unknown Ninja" and the writers were able to get away with it by saying "studying the mutagen that originally caused us to mutate" and that the "mutagen was becoming more unstable". (aka: anything can happen now :lol:). So because of the mutagen's instability, that's how Carter was able to have those machine-like powers, rather than mutating with another living organism. Clever, but it worked within the laws of the mutagen they created. :lol:

[Prowler]

What was the dominating thing on TV after MMPower Rangers and before Pokemon? I only remember Nickelodeon being very big since it was all I watched, Rugrats and the other Nicktoons dominated my TV. Outside of shows I do remember other fads. I know in other countries like Latin America and Europe Dragon Ball Z was a huge fad during that era but that didn't come to the US until Pokemon. Outside of TV I definitely remember tons of fads at that time from console games to Tamagotchi's which dominated conversations at school.

But yeah while so many changes might've alienated the diminishing fans showing them more of the same would've had a similar outcome in viewership. Sometimes people like to blame specific things on the demise of shows or other properties but those things are usually done to save the show from dying. So yeah many "jumping the shark" moments are actually attempts at last gasps for breath at a dying show and sometimes it works like with Scrappy-Doo and Scooby which you can say what you want about him but he kept the Scooby franchise alive for many years.
DBZ was HUGE here when I was in elementary/primary school(1996 to 2000). But what's weird is how it was popular with both people born between 1990 and 1993 and also people born in the early/mid 80s. It appealed to both kids and teenagers/young adults. I'm one of the very few people born in my country between 1980 and 1993 who DIDN'T LIKE DBZ. I've only met about 3 other people who were never fans either... and one of them is my brother.

Man, Tamagotchi! I had like 5 of those, but they all died so quickly, especially if you dropped them on the damn ground. Also, fun fact: the first time a big soccer club here signed a Korean player people nicknamed him, guess what, "Tamagotchi". Kinda messed up, but yet funny.

[sdp]

Yeah DBZ was one of those fads that arrived late to the US since it was huge everywhere else in the world. It was the same with Saint Seiya which was also a huge fad in Europe and Latin America before Power Rangers and didn't get to the US until the early 2000's which it didn't get any attention since it was an old 80s anime and the localization/censorship ruined the show. Kind of a shame the US missed out on that as well.

[Prowler]

Yeah DBZ was one of those fads that arrived late to the US since it was huge everywhere else in the world. It was the same with Saint Seiya which was also a huge fad in Europe and Latin America before Power Rangers and didn't get to the US until the early 2000's which it didn't get any attention since it was an old 80s anime and the localization/censorship ruined the show. Kind of a shame the US missed out on that as well.
Saint Seiya must have been in the early 90s then. I was too young to possibly remember it. But as an anime fan that likes watching anime from every decade, I've never cared enough to check it out.

The two biggest phenomenons when I was in elementary were DBZ and Pokémon BY FAR. Nothing else came close. Yes, kids would watch the occasional obscure cartoon or the occasional Batman or Spider-Man episode, but weren't crazy about them as they were for Pokémon and DBZ. That's when the anime craze really started here. Before that, anime was mostly popular in France and Italy, which have been translating manga since the 80s. Probably the two biggest markets in Europe for anime/manga.

Btw, was Yu-Gi-Oh ever popular there? I remember some kids playing the card game back in 6th grade but it died pretty quickly. That and Beyblade toys.

[sdp]

I highly recommend Saint Seiya its one of the best action anime if you can put up with 80s anime animation and the music is some of the best, if you like DBZ then this is better in every way except humor. Yu-Gi-Oh rode the Pokemon fad wave and continued once the Pokemon fad went away but it was never as big as Pokemon since it only appealed to boys unlike Pokemon that also appealed to girls and even adults, not to mention it was somewhat similar.

[Prowler]

I highly recommend Saint Seiya its one of the best action anime if you can put up with 80s anime animation and the music is some of the best, if you like DBZ then this is better in every way except humor. Yu-Gi-Oh rode the Pokemon fad wave and continued once the Pokemon fad went away but it was never as big as Pokemon since it only appealed to boys unlike Pokemon that also appealed to girls and even adults, not to mention it was somewhat similar.
Well I never liked DBZ, so I doubt I'd enjoy Saint Seiya. Oddly enough, I like One Piece, which is often labeled as the modern DBZ.

A classic shounen I'd like to check out someday is Hokuto no Ken. It was like the first big shounen. It's probably quite outdated, though.

[Wesley]

Well, I first saw season 8 in 1995 and the cartoon was re-run after that ("Turtle Trek" wasn't shown at the time and a repeat of "Enter Krakus" was aired instead for some reason). Seasons nine and ten finally aired in Ireland in 1998. Nine was placed between seven and eight, oddly enough, at that time. I think the red sky seasons were okay, but I prefer the earlier seasons.

Red sky took itself too seriously at times, particularly in 9. 8 was the best red sky season with a good mix of action and comedy. 9 was the worst. Dregg turning the people against the Turtles got boring after a few episodes. 10 was a big improvement, though there were some things left unresolved like Dregg permanently altering Leonardo's structure. Kronos was an interesting character alright. He could've been used again. I thought Carter wasn't that bad (at least he got some character development in the episode "The Showdown".

I liked that Shredder was portrayed as a serious threat for the first time in years, though he was still easily defeated by the Turtles. I also liked that he was shown to care about Krang and able to stand up to Dregg. I liked that April had a more proactive role in episodes like "Cry HAVOC" and "A Turtle in Time". One of Splinter's best quotes is in "Wrath of the Wrath King", which I decided to use as my signature quote.

[Prowler]

You're right, Wesley. Even after fixing him up, Dregg said that his genes were changed forever, making us think that not everything was good yet. That being said, I had no interest in watching their mutations getting unstable. I disliked that angle.

I liked how Dregg was ruthless to the point of killing Hi-Tech and the other aliens in the final episode of the series. He also tried to kill Carter once.

Kind of a shame that the last episode of the series pitted the Turtles against Dregg and not against Shredder and Krang as most would have expected. If you had told anyone in season 3 that Dregg would eventually replace Shredder, people would have laughed at you.

Also, despite Dregg being ruthless, Shredder's "I never bluff!" was by far the most shocking moment of the series.

Not many have watched the Red Sky seasons to this day afaik. So I guess most fans didn't get to know how the OT ended. They probably assumed it just got cancelled or that Shredder and Krang were finally beaten in an anti-climatic way.

[Wesley]

You're right, Wesley. Even after fixing him up, Dregg said that his genes were changed forever, making us think that not everything was good yet. That being said, I had no interest in watching their mutations getting unstable. I disliked that angle.

I liked how Dregg was ruthless to the point of killing Hi-Tech and the other aliens in the final episode of the series. He also tried to kill Carter once.

Kind of a shame that the last episode of the series pitted the Turtles against Dregg and not against Shredder and Krang as most would have expected. If you had told anyone in season 3 that Dregg would eventually replace Shredder, people would have laughed at you.

Also, despite Dregg being ruthless, Shredder's "I never bluff!" was by far the most shocking moment of the series.

Not many have watched the Red Sky seasons to this day afaik. So I guess most fans didn't get to know how the OT ended. They probably assumed it just got cancelled or that Shredder and Krang were finally beaten in an anti-climatic way.

I agree that Shredder's "I never bluff!" was the most shocking moment. I also agree that most fans probably didn't know how the OT ended (they just remember the earlier seasons). I was glad that the secondary mutations were written out early on in season ten.

[ABrown]

Personally, I loved the "red sky" seasons and wish that the whole series had been in that style. When the original cartoon was in its early seasons (1987-1989), I didn't initially find it the least bit entertaining. But when the first movie came out in 1990, I absolutely loved it. That movie was what made me a fan of the TMNT, and that's why I began to watch the cartoon. However, from 1992-1995, my interests had changed to video games and sports as kids my age were getting older and didn't find action cartoons to be our passion any longer.

Then in 1996, I rediscovered the TMNT cartoon and what it had become. I couldn't have been more impressed with the show's new style. It was exactly what I wished that the cartoon had been 5-6 year earlier when I was 9-10 years old. I think the red sky seasons had better animation and very entertaining story arcs. I only wish that the red sky characters (Dregg, Hi-Tech, Mung, Carter, etc.) had getten toy releases.

[Prowler]

Does a cartoon suddenly changing tone happen often like the OT did? I mean, change of tone or not, it was hard for people to suddenly start taking the TMNT seriously. Especially when they kept cracking jokes during Red Sky and pretending to act badass.

The 4kids show had a great balance of humor, action and drama.

[Wesley]

Personally, I loved the "red sky" seasons and wish that the whole series had been in that style. When the original cartoon was in its early seasons (1987-1989), I didn't initially find it the least bit entertaining. But when the first movie came out in 1990, I absolutely loved it. That movie was what made me a fan of the TMNT, and that's why I began to watch the cartoon. However, from 1992-1995, my interests had changed to video games and sports as kids my age were getting older and didn't find action cartoons to be our passion any longer.

Then in 1996, I rediscovered the TMNT cartoon and what it had become. I couldn't have been more impressed with the show's new style. It was exactly what I wished that the cartoon had been 5-6 year earlier when I was 9-10 years old. I think the red sky seasons had better animation and very entertaining story arcs. I only wish that the red sky characters (Dregg, Hi-Tech, Mung, Carter, etc.) had getten toy releases.

I loved the red sky seasons as well when I was growing up because I liked that those seasons were darker and edgier than the goofier ones. I actually preferred red sky when I was a teenager, though a lot of its flaws are apparent when watching it as an adult. I now like both the earlier seasons and red sky. I thought Dregg was crazy in season ten, as he was willing to turn the Earth into another sun, sacrificing himself in the process as well. He would've killed Shredder and Krang in "Turtles to the Second Power" if the Turtles hadn't showed up just in time. I agree that there were some great story arcs.

Does a cartoon suddenly changing tone happen often like the OT did? I mean, change of tone or not, it was hard for people to suddenly start taking the TMNT seriously. Especially when they kept cracking jokes during Red Sky and pretending to act badass.

The 4kids show had a great balance of humor, action and drama.

Well, the 4kids show did change its tone suddenly after season five. Anyway, I agree that it was hard to take red sky seriously. However, I first watched season eight when I was 8 and the first episode blew me away. I really thought red sky was badass at the time, but watching it as an adult, it was a fake darkness. The 2003 series was much better, but it was good for its time, in my opinion. I actually don't mind that the characters kept saying funny one-liners in red sky because I think it showed that that they weren't afraid no matter what dangerous situation they were in.

[Prowler]

I found Red Sky edgy as a kid too, and I thought it looked promising. It made me believe that the Turtles would kill Shredder in the last episode... boy I was so naïve :lol:

[Wesley]

I found Red Sky edgy as a kid too, and I thought it looked promising. It made me believe that the Turtles would kill Shredder in the last episode... boy I was so naïve :lol:

I agree that red sky looked promising. I think "Get Shredder" was a great opening episode, but the other episodes weren't as good. It had potential. The story arcs and characters could've been better written. The Turtles did seem really determined to capture Shredder in most of season eight, though they appeared to change their minds in "Turtle Trek".

[Prowler]

I agree that red sky looked promising. I think "Get Shredder" was a great opening episode, but the other episodes weren't as good. It had potential. The story arcs and characters could've been better written. The Turtles did seem really determined to capture Shredder in most of season eight, though they appeared to change their minds in "Turtle Trek".
Season 8 and 10 were both pretty good. 9 not so much.

And they were more determined than ever to stop Shredder in season 8. Which is funny considering they had plenty of opportunities to do so in the previous seasons. Yes, they did complain about them him always getting away... but a lot of times they kinda just let him go. After season 3, they seemed to kinda stop caring much if Shredder got away or not.

As for "Turtle Trek", they wanted to stop him, but Splinter told them that their main goal should be doing good and not obsessing over stopping Shredder. I guess he told them that so that they weren't as obsessed about Shredder as Shredder was about them. He didn't want the hatred to consume them. Also, in the 3 parter with Shredder and Krang in season 10, Shredder didn't seem to care much about the Turtles. He wanted to go back to Earth and stay there in order to conquer it, but it seemed like he wasn't obsessed with the Turtles as much as Dregg was. Hell, in fact, krang even calls Dregg "mad" for wanting to burn the Earth to a crisp. Funny, considering Krang has attempted insane things against Earth before as well :lol:

[Wesley]

Season 8 and 10 were both pretty good. 9 not so much.

And they were more determined than ever to stop Shredder in season 8. Which is funny considering they had plenty of opportunities to do so in the previous seasons. Yes, they did complain about them him always getting away... but a lot of times they kinda just let him go. After season 3, they seemed to kinda stop caring much if Shredder got away or not.

As for "Turtle Trek", they wanted to stop him, but Splinter told them that their main goal should be doing good and not obsessing over stopping Shredder. I guess he told them that so that they weren't as obsessed about Shredder as Shredder was about them. He didn't want the hatred to consume them. Also, in the 3 parter with Shredder and Krang in season 10, Shredder didn't seem to care much about the Turtles. He wanted to go back to Earth and stay there in order to conquer it, but it seemed like he wasn't obsessed with the Turtles as much as Dregg was. Hell, in fact, krang even calls Dregg "mad" for wanting to burn the Earth to a crisp. Funny, considering Krang has attempted insane things against Earth before as well :lol:

I agree that seasons eight and ten were great. 9 hasn't aged well, but it had a few good episodes like "Split Second". I think it was a good life lesson to see the characters not being obsessed with their enemies. Dregg's obsession with the Turtles was his undoing in the end.

[Prowler]

I agree that seasons eight and ten were great. 9 hasn't aged well, but it had a few good episodes like "Split Second". I think it was a good life lesson to see the characters not being obsessed with their enemies. Dregg's obsession with the Turtles was his undoing in the end.
It's not a matter of ageing well or not. It simply wasn't as good as the other two story-wise. And I didn't like it much at the time I watched it either. And I'm not just talking about the animation. It did try to give some new life to the cartoon but didn't really succeed at it. Dregg's character evolved in season 10 and things got more tense as well. The 2 parter about Leonardo's mutation and the 3 parter with Shredder and Krang were pretty tense. As were the final 2 episodes. The one with the Mirage Baxter look-a-like scientist was the only not so good ep of the final season.

"Split Second" was a pretty good episode, indeed. My favorite of the season.

[Sumac]

I hated Red Sky seasons. Too much changes, too abrupt. And the worst part was that pretty much none of the new stuff was actually good.

It was like writers threw different stuff at the wall, watching what could make new seasons work.

Let's remove Shredder and Krang and replace them with misterious mutant organisation (no relation to X-Men, no sir)!! Ah, forget it, let's flush it like nothing happened. Let's add new (totally not Marty Sue) awesome human friend to the Turtles!! Ah, forget it, let's sent him to the future without any kind of proper closure. Oh, let's give Turtles secondary mutation!! Ah, forget it...and that's how it went for three seasons. If authors have focused on one thing it would have been better. Instead, they kept experimenting for the experimentation sake. Though, maybe they understood that series won't last, so they decided to realize all their crazy dreams.

In the end, Red Sky seasons are curious thing to study, but as far as the story goes, it's unfocused mess.

IMO, there is nothing to improve since I don't think, RS should have existed in the first place.

[CyberCubed]

Let's remove Shredder and Krang and replace them with misterious mutant organisation (no relation to X-Men, no sir)!! Ah, forget it, let's flush it like nothing happened. Let's add new (totally not Marty Sue) awesome human friend to the Turtles!! Ah, forget it, let's sent him to the future without any kind of proper closure. Oh, let's give Turtles secondary mutation!! Ah, forget it...and that's how it went for three seasons. If authors have focused on one thing it would have been better. Instead, they kept experimenting for the experimentation sake. Though, maybe they understood that series won't last, so they decided to realize all their crazy dreams.
e.

LOL, what the hell are you saying? Everything they brought into the seasons was resolved.

The Titanus/Havoc episodes were a 3-parter, they ended. Carter lasted halfway into the last season and was set into the future to resolve his mutation. The Turtles mutations were all cured in the first few episodes of Season 10.

Why the hell are you saying they brought things into the series and forgot about them? The plotlines were resolved, what do you expect? Its the same as other shows.

[Prowler]

I hated Red Sky seasons. Too much changes, too abrupt. And the worst part was that pretty much none of the new stuff was actually good.

It was like writers threw different stuff at the wall, watching what could make new seasons work.

Let's remove Shredder and Krang and replace them with misterious mutant organisation (no relation to X-Men, no sir)!! Ah, forget it, let's flush it like nothing happened. Let's add new (totally not Marty Sue) awesome human friend to the Turtles!! Ah, forget it, let's sent him to the future without any kind of proper closure. Oh, let's give Turtles secondary mutation!! Ah, forget it...and that's how it went for three seasons. If authors have focused on one thing it would have been better. Instead, they kept experimenting for the experimentation sake. Though, maybe they understood that series won't last, so they decided to realize all their crazy dreams.

In the end, Red Sky seasons are curious thing to study, but as far as the story goes, it's unfocused mess.

IMO, there is nothing to improve since I don't think, RS should have existed in the first place.
Havoc was a pretty good arc, imo. But it had more potential. They could have brought back the likes of Leatherhead and even Mondo Gecko to join it. Hell, why not even Mona Lisa? And speaking of Leatherhead, last time we saw him as in "Night of the Rogues" where he escaped at the end. Other than the main villains such as Shredder, Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady and Dregg; the Rat King was the only secondary villain to get some closure.

I also think Casey Jones or maybe even other human they've befriended in the previous seasons should have appeared in season 9. It was sad to see the Turtles alone against the world. It was just them, April and Carter. Two years had passed between "Turtle Trek" and "The Power of Three" according to Landor. So... why not bring Zach, who'd be older by then, and the writers could have made him act more mature instead of an annoying fanboy?

[Wesley]

It's not a matter of ageing well or not. It simply wasn't as good as the other two story-wise. And I didn't like it much at the time I watched it either. And I'm not just talking about the animation. It did try to give some new life to the cartoon but didn't really succeed at it. Dregg's character evolved in season 10 and things got more tense as well. The 2 parter about Leonardo's mutation and the 3 parter with Shredder and Krang were pretty tense. As were the final 2 episodes. The one with the Mirage Baxter look-a-like scientist was the only not so good ep of the final season.

"Split Second" was a pretty good episode, indeed. My favorite of the season.

I agree about season 9. I think "The Showdown" was also a good episode, at least for giving Carter some character development. I also agree about 10. I watched "Mobster from Dimension X" on the season one dvd a few years ago and I thought it was a boring episode.

[ABrown]

Man all this talk about the red sky seasons makes me want to break out my season 8 dvd. I wish I had more time to rewatch my favorite cartoons. :(

[Wesley]

Havoc was a pretty good arc, imo. But it had more potential. They could have brought back the likes of Leatherhead and even Mondo Gecko to join it. Hell, why not even Mona Lisa? And speaking of Leatherhead, last time we saw him as in "Night of the Rogues" where he escaped at the end. Other than the main villains such as Shredder, Krang, Bebop, Rocksteady and Dregg; the Rat King was the only secondary villain to get some closure.

I also think Casey Jones or maybe even other human they've befriended in the previous seasons should have appeared in season 9. It was sad to see the Turtles alone against the world. It was just them, April and Carter. Two years had passed between "Turtle Trek" and "The Power of Three" according to Landor. So... why not bring Zach, who'd be older by then, and the writers could have made him act more mature instead of an annoying fanboy?

I agree that it was sad to see the Turtles alone against the world. There were many allies that they had made in previous seasons like Usagi who could've helped them, at least every now and then anyway. I would have liked story arcs to be a bit like the ones in the 2003 cartoon. For example, there could have been a gang war between Big Louie and other gangsters in the criminal underworld after Shredder was banished to Dimension X. Maybe a fighting tournament similar to the one in "The Showdown" could have taken place for a few episodes.

[cammy85]

I agree that it was sad to see the Turtles alone against the world. There were many allies that they had made in previous seasons like Usagi who could've helped them, at least every now and then anyway. I would have liked story arcs to be a bit like the ones in the 2003 cartoon. For example, there could have been a gang war between Big Louie and other gangsters in the criminal underworld after Shredder was banished to Dimension X. Maybe a fighting tournament similar to the one in "The Showdown" could have taken place for a few episodes.

Reminds me of my old story idea where the crooks Shredder hired and screwed over ganged up to get what was coming to them, hiring Sopho to help them get to Dimension X. Sopho, upon arriving and seeing the potential of the Technodrome, schemes to bring it to Earth to cause mayhem and destruction. Same as what Chrell did with it in Turtles Forever. Another reason was the futuristic villain I created for that season was looking for a way back to Earth after being banished to the labour mines.

[ABrown]

While rewatching the season eight dvd (I just couldn't help myself with all this talk about the red sky seasons), I would've prefered either one of two things. Either do a couple more Shredder episodes instead of three episodes featuring H.A.V.O.C./Titanus. I just didn't find them to be all that interesting of villiain(s). Or space the episodes out differently. Maybe the episode order could've gone: Get Shredder!, Wrath of the Rat King, State of Shock, Cry H.A.V.O.C.!, Cyber-Turtles, H.A.V.O.C. in the Streets!, Enter: Krakus, Turtle Trek.

[neatoman]

Uh, I hate to be that guy but the fundamental problems of the Red Sky seasons are still the same as the ones in the earlier seasons. What people tend to complain about is the new status quo they presented but the old one stuck for 7 seasons, and it got pretty dull early on...

[Wesley]

Uh, I hate to be that guy but the fundamental problems of the Red Sky seasons are still the same as the ones in the earlier seasons. What people tend to complain about is the new status quo they presented but the old one stuck for 7 seasons, and it got pretty dull early on...

I agree with what you said about the earlier seasons. They got repetitive after a while, especially from season 4 onwards, though I thought seasons one, two, three, seven, eight and ten were good.

While rewatching the season eight dvd (I just couldn't help myself with all this talk about the red sky seasons), I would've prefered either one of two things. Either do a couple more Shredder episodes instead of three episodes featuring H.A.V.O.C./Titanus. I just didn't find them to be all that interesting of villiain(s). Or space the episodes out differently. Maybe the episode order could've gone: Get Shredder!, Wrath of the Rat King, State of Shock, Cry H.A.V.O.C.!, Cyber-Turtles, H.A.V.O.C. in the Streets!, Enter: Krakus, Turtle Trek.

Well, in Ireland, "Cyber-Turtles" was placed between "Wrath of the Rat King" and "State of Shock".

[Prowler]

I agree with what you said about the earlier seasons. They got repetitive after a while, especially from season 4 onwards, though I thought seasons one, two, three, seven, eight and ten were good.



Well, in Ireland, "Cyber-Turtles" was placed between "Wrath of the Rat King" and "State of Shock".
I believe the same thing happened here. Either that or it got placed between "State of Shock" and "Cry H.A.V.O.C.!". Either time placing makes sense to me. I like the Turtles going right back to Shredder in the episode after they beat Titanus. "Cyber Turtles" between "Enter: Krakus" and "Turtle Trek" just seems to break the flow.

[cammy85]

When they repeated them here, it went from State of Shock to Cry HAVOC then Cyber Turtles. Makes sense not to include the whole arc in repeats. I suppose.

[CyberCubed]

I just wish the seasons had 13 episodes instead of 8. Never heard of 8 episode seasons before.

Season 8 with 13 episodes would have been great. I could have seen Baxter and Leatherhead getting one more appearance like Rat King did if it was more episodes.

[Wesley]

When they repeated them here, it went from State of Shock to Cry HAVOC then Cyber Turtles. Makes sense not to include the whole arc in repeats. I suppose.

When season eight was first shown in Ireland in 1995, "Turtle Trek" wasn't aired for some reason and was replaced with a repeat of "Enter: Krakus". The cartoon started being re-run during the summer of 1995 and seasons nine and ten along with Turtle Trek finally aired in 1998 (nine was placed between seven and eight at that time, but was put in the proper order when the cartoon was re-run again and again in the 2000s).

[Prowler]

I just wish the seasons had 13 episodes instead of 8. Never heard of 8 episode seasons before.

Season 8 with 13 episodes would have been great. I could have seen Baxter and Leatherhead getting one more appearance like Rat King did if it was more episodes.
Season 9 and 10 should have just been one season of 16 episodes. Season 8, as you've mentioned, should have been longer. But season 9 didn't exactly have a big finale.

[CyberCubed]

Season 9 and 10 should have just been one season of 16 episodes. Season 8, as you've mentioned, should have been longer. But season 9 didn't exactly have a big finale.

When they did Season 9 they probably knew they were doing one more season, that's why they didn't resolve everything.

Season 10 had the Turtles cure their mutations, Carter was written off to the future, Shredder/Krang get one last hurrah, and Dregg is assumingly defeated in the last episode. I also like how Dregg turns on Mung in the last episode.

[Wesley]

Season 9 and 10 should have just been one season of 16 episodes. Season 8, as you've mentioned, should have been longer. But season 9 didn't exactly have a big finale.

I agree. I thought the season 9 finale was okay. It was interesting to see Dregg getting upstaged by another villain for once. I liked the three-way battle between Dregg, Doomquest and the Turtles near the end of the episode. Nevertheless, it was a silly episode to watch most of the time.

[GodzFire]

boobs ......

[cammy85]

Doomquest was awesome!! Dregg was exposed, the Turtles had a possible cure for their mutations. It wasn't a complete finale, just a cliffhanger. Spider-man did that too at the time.

[neatoman]

boobs ......

m1agaZinJHg

[Shiro Kame]

They could have made the story arcs much longer and resolved the season 8 story arcs such as H.A.V.O.C.

[ABrown]

Does anyone happen to remember how 52 Saturdays got filled with only 8 episodes during season 8? I know that during the 10th season, there was episodes from the 9th season that they re-aired to help fill out a whole year. I would assume that the same thing was done during the 9th season. There was probably repeats from the 8th season that were used to fill out that year. But does any one remember what they did during the 94/95 season? Did they re-air some of the older episodes with the older style, or did they just air the 8 season 8 episodes a million times?

[CyberCubed]

Does anyone happen to remember how 52 Saturdays got filled with only 8 episodes during season 8? I know that during the 10th season, there was episodes from the 9th season that they re-aired to help fill out a whole year. I would assume that the same thing was done during the 9th season. There was probably repeats from the 8th season that were used to fill out that year. But does any one remember what they did during the 94/95 season? Did they re-air some of the older episodes with the older style, or did they just air the 8 season 8 episodes a million times?

They used to re-air Season 9 and 10 together as one season I recall.

I don't remember how they did it during Season 8, as I don't think they re-aired any Season 7 episodes after the revamp.

[Wesley]

Does anyone happen to remember how 52 Saturdays got filled with only 8 episodes during season 8? I know that during the 10th season, there was episodes from the 9th season that they re-aired to help fill out a whole year. I would assume that the same thing was done during the 9th season. There was probably repeats from the 8th season that were used to fill out that year. But does any one remember what they did during the 94/95 season? Did they re-air some of the older episodes with the older style, or did they just air the 8 season 8 episodes a million times?

I don't know about other countries, but in Ireland, the cartoon was usually re-run from the beginning on weekdays every now and then in the 1990s after the latest seasons aired.

[Prowler]

I don't know about other countries, but in Ireland, the cartoon was usually re-run from the beginning on weekdays every now and then in the 1990s after the latest seasons aired.
In my country, it was re-run several times on cable from the late 90s to the mid-00s. That's how some people born in the early 90s like me were able to watch the FW series when we were kids.

[cammy85]

The one time I noticed it happening here, it aired Get Shredder with Season 6's Snakes Alive. Sadly it never happened again.

[Wesley]

In my country, it was re-run several times on cable from the late 90s to the mid-00s. That's how some people born in the early 90s like me were able to watch the FW series when we were kids.

Nearly the same thing happened in Ireland. The cartoon was regularly re-run on rte two from the mid 90s to late 00s. That's how I was able to watch both the OT and 2003 series at the same time in the 2000s.

[Prowler]

Nearly the same thing happened in Ireland. The cartoon was regularly re-run on rte two from the mid 90s to late 00s. That's how I was able to watch both the OT and 2003 series at the same time in the 2000s.
Yea, I think the FW series was still being re-run here between 2003 and 2005. Not sure, though, since I had already watched each episode several times and had every of them in VHS.

[CyberCubed]

Man you guys are lucky, I remember by 1997 the original toon was no longer on the air at all because of Next Mutation.

We never had it on reruns again after Next Mutation debuted.

[Leo656]

It aired on USA Network sometimes but rarely. They were phasing out their cartoons by that point, but they still ran TMNT and Sonic SatAM once in a while. I stopped making it a point to catch it by then but it was still on. Really lousy timeslot as I recall, pretty much just aired it when they felt like it.