Trying to Scientifically define Mutagen's effects

[Tarris Vaal]

This is an interesting line of thought that came up on one of the other threads - and I will apologise in advance if this question has come up ad infinitum. Threadomancy, gotta love it.

Anyway, the question is; 'How exactly does the Mutagen work?'

The ooze and its exact effects appears to change from iteration to iteration so to be clearer we will focus only on the 2k12 series.

So what do we know about it?

* It is milked from the Krathatrogons, a worm creature from Dimension X. Presumably it is a food source for their young.

* The Kraang use it to mutate other creatures. It is implied that within Dimension X, this can be done with significant precision as it is mentioned frequently that it doesnt work as expected in our universe.

* The Kraang are convinced that April's specially bred telekinetic powers can stabilise the mutagen enough to allow it to be used for the Kraang's intended purposes.

- However - The invasion shows the Kraang happily using it without April in a reasonably consistent manner. Presumably this is a modified version which has a compromise effect (its not what the Kraang intended, but it'll do)

* It is generally kept sealed. Whilst 'fresh' it appears to most commonly combine the prominent DNA features from a creature that the affected subject recently came in contact with (even if this was some time beforehand, eg Dogpound, Kirby and Fishface). How it determines exactly what creature to combine with from the subjects previous encounters is unclear and may be pot luck.

- This effect does not commonly fuse the creatures together unless the subjects are in close proximity and exposed at the same time (Baxter, Karai or Chimera)

* The newly mutated creatures are commonly much bigger physically. Though not in all cases (Squirrelanoids initial stage, Ice cream kitty and Dr Cluckingsworth MD)

* Newly mutated creatures commonly exhibit abilities that neither the subject nor its additional DNA had (eg Fishface's poison, Dogpound's bony extrusions, Karai's additional heads, Spiderbyte's spitting acid, Rahzar's shooting finger bones, Timothy's acid)

* Unsealed mutagen appears to be more unstable, resulting in mutations that seem to detract from the original subject's physical body (Rahzar and Timothy)

* Mutagen has been shown to mutate plant matter (Creep, Mushroom man and Snakeweed)

* Mutagen has also been shown to mutate non organic matter (Speed Demon), though this is very unclear how.

* Mutagen can be extracted from a subject resulting in it returning to a normal or alternate state (Creep, Raphael)

* April ONeil is immune to its effects. This is presumably a unique trait of her unusual biology. It is unclear and untested if this is true of more mutants (as only 1 has ever been exposed twice)

* To date it has very rarely fused clothing with a subject (Cockroach terminator is only known example though clothing has disappeared in other cases and remained in others (Karai's breastplate remained for instance, where Timothy's entire costume vanished))

* We know it burns and that mutation is a painful process. This implies a significant increase in thermal energy during a mutation.

* Mutated creatures appear to have a roughly 85% chance of being sentient and non feral. (Rahzar/Dogpound, the Turtles, Splinter, Tigerclaw, April ONeil, Fishface, Punk Frogs, Dr Cluckingsworth MD, Bebop, Rocksteady, Baxter Stockman, Mushroom man, Spiderbytes, Snakeweed, Karai, Speed Demon (insane) as opposed to Squirrelanoids, Creep, Chimera, Ice Cream Kitty, Timothy, Kirby)
Presumably, mutants that started human have a higher chance of being non feral/sane/sentient, whilst non humans are less likely. This is by no means guaranteed (the Turtles themselves being perfect examples)

edit:

* It appears likely that the likelihood of a resulting Feral mutation can be influenced by the emotional state of the subject at the time of mutation. Calm subjects (such as Splinter, the Turtles, Dogpound, Fishface) appear more likely to be non Feral. Agitated or panicking subjects (Kirby, Karai, Baxter...) are more prone to feral mutation.

* Mutagen is shown to remain inside the subject - Speed demon for instance spreads mutagen over a wide area when destroyed. It is also shown to be extractable (Raphael and the Creep), which can result in unusual effects or the reversal of the mutagenic effect.

Edit:

* Mutagen has shown to require direct contact exposure. Commonly this is depicted as skin contact - suggesting that the mutagen is absorbed through the epidermis and into the cellular structure of the subject, presumably transferred through the body by moving into the bloodstream and the lymphatic system. It is implied that organic based clothing provides no defence against this absorption into the body, however there is very little direct on screen evidence either way. This becomes more complex with the question of how Speed Demon became mutated given there is no bloodstream, nor lymphatic system to conduct the mutagen through the car, nor an epidermis to absorb mutagen through.

* Mutagen has also been observed to enter the digestive system (Ice Cream Kitty, and possibly Pizza Face). Given the speed of mutation on screen, this appears to work in the same manner as skin contact; mutagen is absorbed into the body, moving through the bloodstream to attack the subjects cellular structure.

From the evidence it seems reasonable to presume there are 3 versions of mutagen:

Contained Fresh - The most commonly depicted. This appears to randomly take DNA from a source the subject was recently exposed to and fuse it with the subject. The exact process is unclear (for instance - just what did the Squirrelanoids fuse with???) and effects on personal items about the subject appears random. Mutation appears to take apx 5 seconds.
Fresh mutagen is capable of creating mutants from Inert objects (cars) and create sentient creatures from non sentient objects (Creep, Speed Demon)
Exact abilities appear random

Contained, non Fresh - Commonly depicted in large vats within Shredder's lair. Though similar to Fresh Mutagen, this appears to have more unpredictable effects, and is often more debilitating with a higher chance of feral mutations. Effects take a little longer to occur (nearing 10s)

Weaponized - Depicted only once in Invasion. A variant of mutagen that creates consistent effects on subjects it touches. Humans and animals become 'Kraangy' whilst tarmac reacts by becoming crystalline. Effects are near instantaneous.



Initial thoughts? Did I miss anything?

[Refractive Reflections]

Here's a thread of some members discussing about it a year or so ago about the mutagen's qualities:
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=45369

I don't know if it's specifically what you are looking for, or if it applies to the mutagen's properties currently if it's changed during the run of the series (especially with the show's plot amnesia), but it gives some background information over what was specifically discussed at the time.

[Tarris Vaal]

Thank you! I was looking for a thread like that!

I was hoping to incorporate something like the mutagen into an RPG game and was hoping to get a better idea of its ground rules. Plus i like theorising on this sort of thing :)

It occurred to me as well that I missed Slash as an important example. He obviously becomes humanoid, but the only humanoid Spike has any contact with on screen is Raphael, which presumably means that Slash is sharing at least a part of Raph's DNA in order for a humanoid mutation to occur - which suggests that Slash is now theoretically related to Raph (father/son?)

[snake]

Wow. Lovin' that in depth stuff.

[Tarris Vaal]

As I said, I like theorising on this sort of plot point :)

There was a suggestion of emotive state having some effect on the mutagen - though I forget who it was who mentioned it now.

The theory was that in most mutations (so 'Fresh mutagen' at least) the chances of a non feral mutation increased if the subject was calm - or at least calmer - at the time of exposure. Dogpound and Fishface self mutate (well Bradford does at least), Slash seems to take to it more calmly than any other example. The turtles and Splinter are more shocked than terrified when exposed. Even Spiderbytes is only shouting out after the mutation has already begun.

By contrast, just prior to mutation, Karai is clearly panicking, Kirby is in hysterics, Baxter is also panicked as is Snakeweed - all cases where the mutant resulting shows feral or slightly unhinged tendencies.

I am reading far too much into this aren't I?

[Luckyday]

You may be on to something there Tarris.

Perhaps because stress release a certain hormone in the body and for whatever reason, the mutagen seem drawn to it.

Another thing is that mutagen stays within the body although I don't know how but maybe it has to or else the mutation will not stay in effect.

What experiment I want to see done with mutagen is to mutant two element that can not bond easily like anything from the noble gases whose outer ring is full with electrons.

If the mutagen does the impossible by bonding them together to create a compound of some kind then maybe it will show what power the mutagen has over the mutants's molecule .

[Refractive Reflections]

I am reading far too much into this aren't I?

:P

As you can tell in the thread I mentioned beforehand, I tried to rack my brain around the mutagen's effects as well earlier in the series, but I couldn't find any firm consistency other than creative whims.

It doesn't help either, and actually dissuades me to figure it out, when the show has substantial plot amnesia with the characters; which, in my opinion, is a much deeper grievance against the show's storytelling than the inconsistency of the Nick mutagen.

[Tarris Vaal]

As you can tell in the thread I mentioned beforehand, I tried to rack my brain around the mutagen's effects as well earlier in the series, but I couldn't find any firm consistency other than creative whims.

I wonder if it is as bad as it seems. The substance is mysterious by its very nature (and stated as unreliable outside dimension X), so there is a lot of scope for it to do weird things whilst still sticking to a vague set of rules.

I'm wondering if we will see more of what it can and cant do as the series progresses, with increasing hints being dropped as we go. I can well imagine there being a very vague set of guidelines for the writers to follow - but guidelines none the less. Just for consistency if nothing else :lol:

Another thing is that mutagen stays within the body although I don't know how but maybe it has to or else the mutation will not stay in effect.

Forgot that! Added to the list!

What experiment I want to see done with mutagen is to mutant two element that can not bond easily like anything from the noble gases whose outer ring is full with electrons.

If the mutagen does the impossible by bonding them together to create a compound of some kind then maybe it will show what power the mutagen has over the mutants's molecule .

Well... the most powerful thing we have observed it achieve so far was mutating a car into a sentient and semi organic construct in Speed demon. We have also recently had it mutate 3 creatures simultaneously in Chimera.

Ice cream kitty and the Cockroach terminator also bound interesting components (and arguably pizza face presuming he wasn't a figment of Mikey's imagination)

The power and complexity level is definitely increasing as the show goes on. Be interesting to see what Shredder does with it :)

[Luckyday]

Well if he found a way to use mutagen break atoms rather then just bonding them...then well.

http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll36/Bigsteve87/Gifs/AtomicBomb.gif

But that's more of the worst case scenario with someone like the shredder having nuclear weapon of mass destruction.

[Tarris Vaal]

So much for New york... :teek:

Imagine Donnie being told to clean up that mess.



Anyway - that is an interesting point to make though. The Mutagen almost certainly binds molecules in order to produce new elements and composite DNA (Ice Cream kitty being of particular note here)

In theory at least, a Retromutagen would then HAVE to divide those molecules again. Its not splitting the atom, but it may provide some explosive results.

In most cases of mutation (both organic parents) I would doubt that, unless it was quite an extreme celluar mutation (such as ICK), a retromutagen would have that effect as the celluar structure being altered would be nominally quite similar from creature to creature. In extreme cases however, it is feasible to assume that the Retromutagagen could have explosive or other hazardous reactions due to the release of energy during the change.

We've seen Donnie cause hazardous freezing and explosive effects in Mutagen already (Mutagen Man), so we know that Retromutagen can cause dangerous side effects.

Timothy mentions it burns during a mutation - suggesting an energy release or build up. Speed Demon literally explodes after being knocked about badly.
-
This suggests some mutants literally cannot be Retromutated safely.

This posits two interesting points for the future of the series:

Ice Cream Kitty is potentially a bomb - Which also means Mikey might be responsible for killing everyone.

and more seriously...

If Shredder gets hold of the Retromutagen and realises this, he may have a actually weapon of mass destruction.

[Luckyday]

So much for New york... :teek:

Imagine Donnie being told to clean up that mess.



Anyway - that is an interesting point to make though. The Mutagen almost certainly binds molecules in order to produce new elements and composite DNA (Ice Cream kitty being of particular note here)

In theory at least, a Retromutagen would then HAVE to divide those molecules again. Its not splitting the atom, but it may provide some explosive results.

In most cases of mutation (both organic parents) I would doubt that, unless it was quite an extreme celluar mutation (such as ICK), a retromutagen would have that effect as the celluar structure being altered would be nominally quite similar from creature to creature. In extreme cases however, it is feasible to assume that the Retromutagagen could have explosive or other hazardous reactions due to the release of energy during the change.

We've seen Donnie cause hazardous freezing and explosive effects in Mutagen already (Mutagen Man), so we know that Retromutagen can cause dangerous side effects.

Timothy mentions it burns during a mutation - suggesting an energy release or build up. Speed Demon literally explodes after being knocked about badly.
-
This suggests some mutants literally cannot be Retromutated safely.

This posits two interesting points for the future of the series:

Ice Cream Kitty is potentially a bomb - Which also means Mikey might be responsible for killing everyone.

and more seriously...

If Shredder gets hold of the Retromutagen and realises this, he may have a actually weapon of mass destruction.

I can see it happening once this series becomes Shredder focus. I can see OT Shredder putting the entire city under hostage if the country doesn't give in his demands like a super villain but Nick Shredder acts like a ninja or at least a mercenary. For him, he might send a message to the turtles to say "I have an equivalent of an atomic bomb, and if you don't give me Hamato Yoshi and Karai, I will use it on your city."

[miru]

So much for New york... :teek:

Imagine Donnie being told to clean up that mess.



Anyway - that is an interesting point to make though. The Mutagen almost certainly binds molecules in order to produce new elements and composite DNA (Ice Cream kitty being of particular note here)

In theory at least, a Retromutagen would then HAVE to divide those molecules again. Its not splitting the atom, but it may provide some explosive results.

In most cases of mutation (both organic parents) I would doubt that, unless it was quite an extreme celluar mutation (such as ICK), a retromutagen would have that effect as the celluar structure being altered would be nominally quite similar from creature to creature. In extreme cases however, it is feasible to assume that the Retromutagagen could have explosive or other hazardous reactions due to the release of energy during the change.

We've seen Donnie cause hazardous freezing and explosive effects in Mutagen already (Mutagen Man), so we know that Retromutagen can cause dangerous side effects.

Timothy mentions it burns during a mutation - suggesting an energy release or build up. Speed Demon literally explodes after being knocked about badly.
-
This suggests some mutants literally cannot be Retromutated safely.

This posits two interesting points for the future of the series:

Ice Cream Kitty is potentially a bomb - Which also means Mikey might be responsible for killing everyone.

and more seriously...

If Shredder gets hold of the Retromutagen and realises this, he may have a actually weapon of mass destruction.

"Gulp"

What if Shredder turned his motely mutant crew into suicide bombers with Retromutagen?

[Tarris Vaal]

I doubt that would happen with the existing mutants in Shredder's employ.

Fishface, Rahzar, Tigerclaw and Baxter (and Karai for that matter) are all organic/organic mutants so the initial celluar structures are too similar to require significant changes to the fundamentals of how the cells work. Retromutagen would only restore them to their original selves ....

... Though I have to wonder what would happen to Rahzar with the Retromutagen, given the circumstances of his mutation.

Dangerous mutants at the moment were Speed Demon, the Cockroach terminator (ish) and Timothy.

And the mutagen itself.

[Tarris Vaal]

Following an excellent point made on another thread:

But that episode has a really big WTF though, he states that he only have enough for 2 people, he loses one and all hell breaks lose when everyone wants the second one, and in the end a single drop of it was enough to de-mutate Kirby. One drop, he could de-mutate everyone in the city with one canister alone let alone 2. - Devilspooky

This raises the question of dosage required to facilitate a mutation, and the dosage required by Retromutagen to counteract it.

So far from observation we can surmise the following points regarding mutagen:

* Shredder's minions commonly have massive dosages - Dogpound, Fishface, Karai and Rahzar are all dunked or deluged in vats of the stuff.

* The Kraang use a standardized container for all but the largest attacks. Given the dangers and difficulties of extracting and importing the mutagen this suggests that each container is intended as a single dose, however this is regularly shown not to be the case;

* Relatively small amounts of mutagen have been shown to initiate a mutation. Baxter stockman is a clear example, however Spiderbytes and Kirby have only part of a cannister strike them. The Turtles and Splinter share a single cannister between them - The Punk frogs, Speed Demon and Ice cream Kitty are extreme cases where only tiny amounts of mutagen was sufficient to cause the reaction.

From this we can observe that the mutagen is capable of initiating mutation with very small doses. The fact that a car was mutated from brief exposure to its tyres suggests that the size of the mutating object is not a factor in the amount of mutagen required to initiate the mutation.

That said, the Speed demon seems to be an extreme example in many instances - discounting it briefly and it would appear that more commonly human sized creatures require roughly a quarter to one half of a cannister to initiate change (taking Baxter to be the example of the smallest known amount of mutagen needed on a human sized subject)

Smaller creatures, such as cockroaches, cats, frogs and squirrels seem to have initiated mutation with extremely limited exposure, perhaps as little as 1/50th of a cannister (2%). It is also possible that Spike falls into this category, though we are not shown how much mutagen he is exposed to.

Speed demon is the only occasion where tiny doses of mutagen were used on a large subject. It is also one of the only occasions where an inanimate object is mutated and mutated to give sentience. It seems reasonable to postulate it as a 'wild card' example.



* Retromutagen is stated to require 10 mutagen cannisters to make 1 Retromutagen cannister.

* The Retromutagen is only used on one occasion to date; to demutate Kirby. On this occasion only a seemingly small dosage was required. (I cant find a clip to confirm precisely how much was required though - if memory serves it was a syringe worth). However what is certain is that it was a smaller dosage than the initial mutagen exposure.

* Although unconfirmed in quantities, it does appear that mutagen can be counteracted by a comparatively small amount of retromutagen. This suggests the Retromutagen is more potent, and that overexposure may have unpleasant side effects of its own.

[Tarris Vaal]

The Speed Demon question -

On more than one occasion, the mutant known as Speed Demon (Race with the Demon - season 3), breaks almost all the known 'rules' of mutagen. So the question is how it could possibly work within the known 'rules'. Is it actually a complete aberration or is there something we are missing that actually does make it work as normal?

We know from The Croaking, that Speed demon is a car that drives over an open cannister of Mutagen. This means that the car was driving country roads at speed and at night and was obviously being driven.

so some basic observations;

* Given the size of the car compared to the cannister and corresponding spill, it is likely the mutagen only touched initially at most 2 tyres.

* Night time driving at speed, the windows are almost certainly closed. Though not impossible, it is highly unlikely that the car is in such a bad state that it has a hole in the floor through which the mutagen could reach the rider. This means the rider was almost certainly not affected by the original mutation.

*Previous observations of Mutagen show that it does not affect non living objects unless weaponized (and even then, it does not produce sentient/living creatures). Clothing is frequently shown to be struck by mutagen (along with tables, floors, etc) without causing a mutant. This means that an organic component HAD to be present somewhere on the car at the time of exposure.

* In order to affect cellular structure beyond the immediate exposed area, a situation must have occurred to bring the mutagen into contact with a large proportion of the car itself.

* Mutagen has been shown to merge inorganic/non living material and organic subjects (cockroach terminator).

* The car was shown to be driving a country road.

From this we can make some reasonable assumptions:

* Night time driving through a country road - There is a reasonably high chance that the car had hit an animal earlier in its journey

* Car driving at speed makes it likely that the Mutagen splashed.

* A car has its oil transmission system as well as the radiator/coolant system. This operates in a similar manner to a vascular system in a living animal. Given the age of the car, it is a reasonable assumption to presume that at least some point of the oil or coolant transmission system tubing is in a poor state or repair, breached and leaking, or just very worn and thin.




From these assumptions, it is possible to construct a scenario which explains the Speed Demon mutant whilst maintaining the known 'rules' of mutagen as depicted;


The car is driving along a winding Northampton road at night and at speed. The road passes close to a swampy area. At a point in the journey, the car runs over a small predatory animal (fox, raccoon, etc). Within a matter of minutes after this incident, the car then drives through what appears to be a puddle. This is in fact a mutagen spillage.

The impact of the tyres at speed - already contaminated with animal viscera - throws mutagen droplets across the underside of the car.

Some of these droplets get caught up in the primary transmission, others get onto weak points in the car's oil leads.

The mutagen, already in a state of mutation with the animal dna, integrates with the (semi organic) oil system. As normal, it merges the animal dna with the oil and non organic components present. The oil system spreads the mutagenic solution through the entire car in a matter of seconds, just like a vascular system in a normal animal.

The car mutates, merging bodily with elements of the animal it struck. It takes on the predatory nature of that creature. As there is proportionally much more car than there is animal, the mutant retains the overall appearance and shape of the car.

In effect, Speed Demon is less a mutated car, so much as a mutated oil system within a car, that is using a car like mobile battle armour. This explains why the car does not increase in size (as would also be normal), because it is not the car itself which mutates.

The newly mutated 'Speed Demon' immediately attacks the initial driver - being almost certainly a feral mutation - absorbing him like any other animal attack would 'eat' prey.
The mutation is so fresh however, that 'Speed Demon' partly absorbs the driver, taking on personality traits (a need for speed, a lack of care for the rules of the road, the ability to speak, etc). The absorption is not total and is closer to consumption than absorption, which is why the rider is eventually ejected without obvious harm or lasting mutation. He may be partly 'digested' but is otherwise no worse for wear beyond psychological trauma.


The mutagen collects in the car's engine system. When Speed Demon is rammed, the mutagen reacts with the existing fuel, causing an explosion, spreading the small amount of remaining mutagen over an unfortunate eagle.



:lol:

Sorry guys, just needed to get that out of my system. Its been bugging me for ages.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

It's also possible that the mutagen reacted with the tires themselves as well- given that tires are a petroleum (or sometimes natural rubber)-based product. I'm guessing that some of the mutagen also got into the engine assembly, which would explain why Donnie got absorbed when the car "ate" him. The car's hood acted like a giant mouth and as you suggested, it "digested" him- into the driver's seat, which in itself suggests that the car is now "alive" to some degree. All of this would possibly support the theory of the car's oil system mixing with material from road-kill.

[Amaranthus]

Also don't forget everything is always covered in bacteria. Which are living organisms. Which is why Timothy got turned into an amoeba-like goo, because he didn't directly touch anything. Mutagen seems to burn, which is why clothes usually disappear during the process. This didn't apply to Dogpound and Baxter Stockman.
I don't get Dogpound's second mutation though. He clearly touched Mikey before falling into the mutagen.

[Tarris Vaal]

It might be a quantity thing - Splinter didnt lose his clothes either (if the flashback is anything to go by they ripped when he mutated)

Dogpound I dont think we got much of a clear shot of him immediately post mutation (please correct me if I'm remembering that wrong), so its 'possible' his clothes were added later. Obviously Xever lost all his clothing, and Baxter was hit by comparatively small amounts of mutagen so possibly it wasnt enough to cause the clothing to be absorbed.

Rahzar is an interesting one though - admittably there weren't many clothes to lose, but Rahzar is odd anyway because he actually loses body mass rather than gains it - which is itself unusual. And Rahzar isnt the only one to be hit by mutagen immediately after touching one of the turtles (Timothy for instance). He and Timothy I can only put down to a potential change in the mutagen if its left in an open container for too long (Fresh vs Non Fresh mutagen)


I may attack the Timothy question later, there are a lot of odd things about his mutation....


As for bacteria, I can only presume that because its literally everywhere, that it has had an effect on Every mutant we've seen, and is just absorbed into the mix like everything else. We just dont see much of it - though that may explain the sometimes random abilities of some mutants.

[Luckyday]

It might be a quantity thing - Splinter didnt lose his clothes either (if the flashback is anything to go by they ripped when he mutated)

Dogpound I dont think we got much of a clear shot of him immediately post mutation (please correct me if I'm remembering that wrong), so its 'possible' his clothes were added later. Obviously Xever lost all his clothing, and Baxter was hit by comparatively small amounts of mutagen so possibly it wasnt enough to cause the clothing to be absorbed.

Rahzar is an interesting one though - admittably there weren't many clothes to lose, but Rahzar is odd anyway because he actually loses body mass rather than gains it - which is itself unusual. And Rahzar isnt the only one to be hit by mutagen immediately after touching one of the turtles (Timothy for instance). He and Timothy I can only put down to a potential change in the mutagen if its left in an open container for too long (Fresh vs Non Fresh mutagen)


But you are forgetting Slash. How did he turn into a mutant if the only person he had touch was clearly Raph?

[Tarris Vaal]

But you are forgetting Slash. How did he turn into a mutant if the only person he had touch was clearly Raph?

Well, as you say the only person he touches is Raphael (certainly immediately prior to his mutation at least), but he does exhibit fairly expected results from what we know of the mutagen depicted in the show;

* He increases in body mass significantly (more so than the turtles, suggesting perhaps a larger exposure)

* He is calm during the mutation (implied willingly mutated) and retains memories, faculties and sanity (arguably ;) ), suggesting again that emotional state has an effect on the end result

* He starts as a turtle and retains far more of the physical characteristics of turtles than any of the other turtles do (albeit exaggerated, such as his far more pronounced beak, spiked shell and retractable talons). This suggests that where the turtles (L/R/D/M) are roughly 50/50 human/turtle DNA mix, that Slash has a much higher proportion of turtle DNA, which makes perfect sense if he borrows DNA from Raph with which to mutate (suggesting a 25/75 ish human/turtle split)

- This does imply that genetically speaking, Slash is at least related to Raphael, arguably a son, as he shares 50% apx of his genetic makeup with Raph.


Slash actually follows the 'rules' as observed fairly well. Rahzar and Timothy are harder to explain because we see them have physical contact with the Turtles, yet do not borrow any observable DNA traits or characteristics from them following their mutations.

[Tarris Vaal]

Thought I'd make a list of all known mutants from the 2k12 series and their presumed/confirmed 'parentage'. Hopefully this might make it a little easier to spot consistencies for the mutagen discussion (read needless theorising);


1 Tigerclaw - Human/Tiger - Early Kraang experiment. Sane.
2 Leatherhead - Alligator/ ? (possibly just alligator) - early Kraang experiment. Sane and communicative. Fresh mutagen
3 April O Neil - Human/Kraang - Early Kraang experiment to produce a specific effect (pyschic powers)
4 Splinter - Human/Rat - Accidental, shocked. Sane. Uncertain how much physical contact with a rat prior to mutation. Fresh mutagen
5 Leonardo - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
6 Raphael - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane (usually). Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
7 Donatello - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
8 Michelangelo - Human/Turtle - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with human prior to mutation. Fresh Mutagen
9 Snakeweed - Human/Plant - Accidental, panicked. Rare instance of plant hybrid. Physical contact with weeds prior to mutation. Some feral tendencies (human consumption). Sane. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (regeneration). Fresh mutagen
10 Spiderbytez - Human/Spider - Accidental, panicked. Sane. Physical contact with spider unconfirmed. Spiders definitely present during mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (acid spit). Fresh mutagen
11 Pigeon Pete - Pigeon/ ? - Deliberate Kraang experiment. Fresh Mutagen. Sane and Communicative.
12 Fishface - Human/Fish - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with fish significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (venomous bite). Fresh mutagen
13 Dogpound - Human/Dog - Deliberate. Sane. Physical contact with dog significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (bone spike growth). Fresh mutagen
14 Dr Rockwell - Human/Chimp - Deliberate infliction, likely panicked. Feral. Fresh Mutagen
15 Rat King - Chimp/Human - Deliberate. Highly modified mutagenic compound. Sane. Manifestation of unrelated powers (psychic).
16 Spy Roach - Cockroach/ ? - Accidental. Sane (non communicative). Rare example of fused technological components. Fresh mutagen
17 Justin - Cat/Octopus/Jellyfish/Snake. Accidental Highly undesirable outcome. DNA trace sources only. Rare non humanoid. Manifestation of exaggerated powers. Fresh mutagen. Feral
18 Parasitica Wasp - Wasp/ ? - Rare non humanoid. Deliberate. Fresh mutagen (possibly modified). Manifestation of exaggerated powers. Feral
19 Kirby ONeil (Wingnut) - Bat/human - Accidental, panicked. Fresh mutagen. Feral
20 Ice cream Kitty - Ice Cream/Cat - Accidental. Sane (non communicative). Rare instance of organic compound mutation. Rare non humanoid and food hybrid. Modified mutagen (possibly fresh)
21 Timothy (mutagen man) - Human/ ? - Deliberate, panicked. Non fresh mutagen. Semi Feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (amoeba like form, mutagen consumption. Acid)
22 Squirrelanoids - Squirrel/ ???? - Accidental. Fresh mutagen. Feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (Tongue mouths, evolving forms, asexual reproduction)
23 Fungus Humungous - Mushroom/ ? - Accidental. Sane and communicative. Hive mind. Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (spores)
24 Slash - Turtle/Human - Deliberate. Sane. Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (retractable talons)
25 Rahzar - Dog mutant/? - Accidental. Sane. Non Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of unrelated powers (expelling talons)
26 Baxter Stockman -Fly/Human - Deliberately inflicted. Panicked. Fresh mutagen. Semi Sane.
27 Sir Malachi - Sparrow/Human - Accidental, fresh mutagen. Manifestation of unrelated powers (Pyschic illusions). Sane.
28 Pizza Face - Pizza/Human - Accidental. Semi fresh mutagen. Manifestation of unrelated powers (pyschic control. Levitation. Self replication and regeneration). Semi Sane. Rare example of food hybrid. Possibly figment of imagination.
29 Karai - Human/Snake - Deliberately inflicted, panicked. Non Fresh mutagen. Semi feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (triple heads, ability to shape change back to near human form).
30 Kraang zombies - Human / ? - Deliberately inflicted. Panicked. Semi Feral. Only examples of weaponized mutagen.
31 Creep - Plant/ ? - Accidental. Sane (non communicative). Manifestation of unrelated powers (mutagen drain). Non Fresh mutagen
32 Punk Frogs - Frog/? - Accidental. Calm. Sane. Non Fresh mutagen
33 Speed Demon - Roadkill?/Petrochemicals? - Accidental. Semi feral. non Fresh mutagen
34 Dr Cluckingsworth MD - Chicken/ ? - Accidental. Calm. Sane. Non humanoid. Non Fresh mutagen.
35 Chimera - Worm/Fish/Eagle. Feral. Non humanoid. Non Fresh mutagen. Accidental.
36-38 Shredder mutants -Human/(Shrimp/Crab/Lobster) - Sane. Unknown circumstances or mutagen source.
39 Bebop - Human/Warthog - Sane. Deliberately inflicted. Fresh mutagen. Controlled mutation.
40 Rocksteady - Human/Rhino - Sane. Deliberately inflicted. Fresh mutagen. Controlled mutation.
41 Muckman - Human/Assorted - Sane (?). Accidental. Fresh mutagen - possibly modified
42: Mondo Gecko - Human/Gecko - Sane. Accidental. Fresh mutagen.

So looking at the numbers for these then;

We have 5 incidences of a non human subject becoming mutated into a humanoid (Punk Frogs, Creep, Pigeon Pete, Squirrelanoids 2nd gen, Spy Roach), but also 4 incidences of non humanoids remaining non humanoid (Chimera, ICK, Dr Cluckingsworth and Speed Demon - also technically Squirrelanoids 1st gen and arguably pizza face)

We also have 2 incidences of plant mutation (one independent subject and one dual subject) and 4 incidences of non communicative animals (Justin, ICK, Dr Cluckingsworth and the Chimera) remaining so after mutation.

There are 3 incidences of inert object mutation (arguably 4) - Speed Demon, ICK, Spy Roach and arguably Pizza face.

Of the 38 mutants listed, 3 are Kraang experiments rather than mutagen related 'incidents' and can be discounted as they would be significantly more modified than standard mutants (April, Leatherhead and Pigeon Pete). Another (Kraang Zombies) are caused by a weaponized mutagen and its effects will differ from the standard mutagen depicted.

Of the remaining 34, only 6 are Feral or semi Feral (arguably some more but that could be down to anger issues than true Feralism). This means that a mutation is Sane (or thereabouts) a whopping 83.5% of the time!

9 incidences of Unrelated powers manifesting in the end subject that were not present in either of the original subjects of mutation. (possibly 10 if you included April O'Neil, but its unclear if Kraang are psychic or not). That's unrelated powers being manifested 23% of the time. That's almost 1 in 4!
- This is strong evidence for the 'Bacteria' effect, that Bacteria which is also being caught up in the mix, is producing unexpected effects in the end subject.

Of those 9 incidences; 3 incidences are of Acid related powers manifesting (4 if you include Stockman, but flies do exhibit that trait anyway). This may be again evidence of Bacterial contamination, if a common bacteria present in many of the cases use concentrations of acidic enzymes to digest.



So questions to look at;

* Mutations of singular subjects. What are they mutating with and why?
* How are the unrelated powers manifesting?
* Is Emotional state having an effect?
* Is there a significant difference between incidences of Fresh and Non Fresh mutagen and their end results?


Any other area we should look at? :)

[Luckyday]

^Jesus Christ, that is one thorough mutant manifest.:teek:

Well...one way to know for sure to prove your mutagen mental state theory is to wait for the Snake Hunt episode. My reason for this is because prier to Karai's mutation, she found out a disturbing revelation that makes her question everything that she believes in and possibly shaken the very core of her identity.

My theory with Karai is that her mutation may have given her amnesia, which fits her mental state and could explains why she refer as "KIBA". Not Karai or Miwa, but someone who is separate from those two identities all together.

Another thing that I theorize that mutants can not get mutated again with more foreign dna cause otherwise we would've have a hairy Tokka rather then a skeletor Rahzar.
In this case, it could be argue that mutagen inside the mutant will act as a buffer from foreign dna in times of an another mutation but will still absorb the energy of that reaction.

There is also one theory out there that mutagen act as like a virus since certain viruses can alter dna but if the mutant's mutagen buffer against foreign dna then could it also block actual viruses and thus making all mutants immune to diseases or at least give them a higher immunity then normal?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Thought I'd make a list of all known mutants from the 2k12 series and their presumed/confirmed 'parentage'. Hopefully this might make it a little easier to spot consistencies for the mutagen discussion (read needless theorising);



10 Spiderbytez - Human/Spider - Accidental, panicked. Sane. Physical contact with spider unconfirmed. Spiders definitely present during mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (acid spit). Fresh mutagen
11 Pigeon Pete - Pigeon/ ? - Deliberate Kraang experiment. Fresh Mutagen. Sane and Communicative.
12 Fishface - Human/Fish - Accidental. Sane. Physical contact with fish significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (venomous bite). Fresh mutagen
13 Dogpound - Human/Dog - Deliberate. Sane. Physical contact with dog significantly prior to mutation. Manifestation of unrelated powers (bone spike growth). Fresh mutagen
21 Timothy (mutagen man) - Human/ ? - Deliberate, panicked. Non fresh mutagen. Semi Feral. Manifestation of unrelated powers (amoeba like form, mutagen consumption. Acid)
24 Slash - Turtle/Human - Deliberate. Sane. Fresh mutagen. Manifestation of exaggerated powers (retractable talons)



So looking at the numbers for these then;

9 incidences of Unrelated powers manifesting in the end subject that were not present in either of the original subjects of mutation. (possibly 10 if you included April O'Neil, but its unclear if Kraang are psychic or not). That's unrelated powers being manifested 23% of the time. That's almost 1 in 4!
- This is strong evidence for the 'Bacteria' effect, that Bacteria which is also being caught up in the mix, is producing unexpected effects in the end subject.

Of those 9 incidences; 3 incidences are of Acid related powers manifesting (4 if you include Stockman, but flies do exhibit that trait anyway). This may be again evidence of Bacterial contamination, if a common bacteria present in many of the cases use concentrations of acidic enzymes to digest.



So questions to look at;

* Mutations of singular subjects. What are they mutating with and why?
* How are the unrelated powers manifesting?
* Is Emotional state having an effect?
* Is there a significant difference between incidences of Fresh and Non Fresh mutagen and their end results?


Any other area we should look at? :)


Just a minor note or three here, but:

1: Spiderbytes- The "acid spit" isn't unrelated, spiders actually eat by injecting their venom into the bodies of their prey- it is modified digestive acid that both paralyzes and begins digesting the prey before the spider even eats. So this is actually part of the spider-side of the mutation showing. Nothing unusual or unexpected here.

2: Pete- We don't know for certain that he was a deliberate experiment by the Kraang, just that he was in the facility and was sent by Kirby to find April and deliver his message. If anything, he seems to have been another accident with the mutagen.

3: Fishface. Once again, the acid spit is part of the mutation itself- the species of fish he was mutated to is also venomous, IIRC, and highly dangerous, although the venom is in the spines, IIRC. In his case, it appears to have been shifted to his bite, but otherwise, this is nothing unexpected. There are quite a few venomous species of fish, actually, the most notorious being the Lionfish, but Puffer-fish and others are included in that list, and though I can't recall the name of the exact species he is, they are quite nasty.

4: Dogpound/Rahzar- This one's interesting, the double mutation appears more of a de-evolution back to an earlier form (dogs are simply over-bred and domesticated wolves) so it's possible the mutagen simply regressed Dogpound into the more primitive but also more dangerous species of origin. The bone spikes are an anomaly, but in each case, it appears to simply be a product of the extreme exposure to the mutagen. In BOTH cases, he was COMPLETELY immersed! Also, his initial mutation was FAR from Deliberate- he and Xever were both mutated as a result of smashing the vat of mutagen at the top of the building- something that the turtles were trying to PREVENT. It was an accident.

5: Timothy- Non-related powers? Don't think so. The vat he doused himself with was open at the top (as most of them seem to be) which may imply that it was contaminated with bacteria to begin with. He never had SKIN contact with anyone (his costume was a full-body suit)- including the turtles- so that negates the idea that he had prior contact with another creature before getting mutated. His form indicates that he was mutated into whatever organism(s) he was in contact with at the time- ie, common bacteria etc found on the body and/or in the mutagen itself. Nothing unexpected here, either. And his acid is simply part of his digestion, just as with Spiderbytes- amoebas eat by surrounding their "prey" and digesting it inside their own body. Essentially, the amoeba's entire body acts as its stomach. So his acid makes sense.

6: Slash- Accidental, not deliberate. Raph put the canister in his room for safe-keeping, but it rolled off the table. Presumably, it broke open when it fell, and Slash simply got into it much like the turtles themselves did. Whether he did so consciously or not is open to debate, but given that he was just a normal turtle- with the intelligence of such- at the time, it's doubtful he mutated himself on purpose. More likely, he was simply curious, and just realized what had happened to him AFTER he changed.

7: Karai- her spitting ability is another example of a purely snake-like ability, which again makes perfect sense when one considers that snake venom is injected through the fangs, which act like hypodermic needles. A prime example of this ability is the spitting cobra, which DOES in fact spit the venom from its fangs for up to ten feet- and coincidentally, usually aims for the victims eyes! The two extra heads and ability to (mostly) transform back to a human state is something of an anomaly, but given that the mutagen was contaminated, we don't know what else was in it or how that affected the end result.

All of the above examples indicate mutation-related abilities or origins that are accidental, and in some cases, both. It might also be interesting to note that the mutants with acidic abilities came from creatures that are themselves venomous, such as Karai and Spiderbytes. The only odd one here appears to be the spurs/retractable claws of Dogpound/Rahzar, but this may simply be something unstable in the mutagen, or inherent in his mutation as a carnivore. (It might be useful to note that canines and felines are fairly close together on the evolutionary tree, having originally branched from the same root ancestor.... And felines DO have retractable claws!)



Another thing that I theorize that mutants can not get mutated again with more foreign dna cause otherwise we would've have a hairy Tokka rather then a skeletor Rahzar.
In this case, it could be argue that mutagen inside the mutant will act as a buffer from foreign dna in times of an another mutation but will still absorb the energy of that reaction.

There is also one theory out there that mutagen act as like a virus since certain viruses can alter dna but if the mutant's mutagen buffer against foreign dna then could it also block actual viruses and thus making all mutants immune to diseases or at least give them a higher immunity then normal?

I don't think Dogpound ever actually PHYSICALLY touched Mikey when he fell into the vat, it looked more like he reached out and missed. So it would appear that neither he nor Timothy ever had contact with any of the turtles- Timothy was wearing a full-body suit, and Dogpound just missed him by a "hair"....

Also, the virus theory is partly mine, and I'd just like to point out that ALL viruses alter DNA. It's how they reproduce- by inserting their own DNA into the host cell's nucleus, and thus turning the cell into a factory to replicate the virus. However, this doesn't necessarily block out other viruses or make them immune to further mutation. It just means that the mutagen (if it works that way) would be inserting the foreign DNA into the host creature as part of the process. So far, it doesn't seem to have made any of them more immune to illnesses or even to more mutagen. (Mikey's Shellacne being a prime example here.)

[victory_angel]

2: Pete- We don't know for certain that he was a deliberate experiment by the Kraang, just that he was in the facility and was sent by Kirby to find April and deliver his message. If anything, he seems to have been another accident with the mutagen.

Well he did say the Kraang poured mutagen all over him and turned him into a half man/half pigeon thing. So the action may have been deliberate, but the result may have been unintended.

7: Karai- her spitting ability is another example of a purely snake-like ability, which again makes perfect sense when one considers that snake venom is injected through the fangs, which act like hypodermic needles. A prime example of this ability is the spitting cobra, which DOES in fact spit the venom from its fangs for up to ten feet- and coincidentally, usually aims for the victims eyes! The two extra heads and ability to (mostly) transform back to a human state is something of an anomaly, but given that the mutagen was contaminated, we don't know what else was in it or how that affected the end result.

I think the heads on her hands are meant to be their to help distract her pray. Karai is a kunoichi which means she is trained to spy on, distract, and seduce (and at times sleep with) her enemy. Heck the word for kunoichi is derived from the strokes use for the kanji for female, but it also means Nine plus One.

Women who are temptresses are also occasionally referred to as snakes or she-snakes which makes Karai's transformation some what appropriate.

But there are species of snake that dazzle their pray as a way of distracting it or attracting it for an easy kill. So in Karai's case the snake heads on her hands would be another means of injecting venom, but they are also able to distract you from her actual head which is most deadly part.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wonder if he was one of the "test subjects" they were using for the mind-transfer experiment? Maybe he got loose and they spilled it trying to catch him, LOL! They did have a capture human and a pigeon for that experiment- might be that one was a replacement for Pete. Just a thought.....

[Tarris Vaal]

I wonder if he was one of the "test subjects" they were using for the mind-transfer experiment? Maybe he got loose and they spilled it trying to catch him, LOL! They did have a capture human and a pigeon for that experiment- might be that one was a replacement for Pete. Just a thought.....

You say that and the first thing that jumps into my head is 'Catch the Pigeon! Catch the Pigeon!'

Ah.... I'm old... :(

1: Spiderbytes- The "acid spit" isn't unrelated, spiders actually eat by injecting their venom into the bodies of their prey- it is modified digestive acid that both paralyzes and begins digesting the prey before the spider even eats. So this is actually part of the spider-side of the mutation showing. Nothing unusual or unexpected here.


Fair point with Spiderbytes :) Though I'd never heard of a spitting spider, it just seemed out of place.

2: Pete- We don't know for certain that he was a deliberate experiment by the Kraang, just that he was in the facility and was sent by Kirby to find April and deliver his message. If anything, he seems to have been another accident with the mutagen.

There isnt much to go on with Pete is there? I know he made an appearance in IDW, was there any more info there?


3: Fishface. Once again, the acid spit is part of the mutation itself- the species of fish he was mutated to is also venomous, IIRC, and highly dangerous, although the venom is in the spines, IIRC. In his case, it appears to have been shifted to his bite, but otherwise, this is nothing unexpected. There are quite a few venomous species of fish, actually, the most notorious being the Lionfish, but Puffer-fish and others are included in that list, and though I can't recall the name of the exact species he is, they are quite nasty.

Stonefish is what you were thinking of I think :) - its the only one I know which has teeth even remotely like that and has venomous spines - but its the teeth I was thinking of as the Unrelated mutation - to my knowledge anyway, there aren't fish that inject poison through their teeth (and certainly none that inflict hallucinations)

4: Dogpound/Rahzar- This one's interesting, the double mutation appears more of a de-evolution back to an earlier form (dogs are simply over-bred and domesticated wolves) so it's possible the mutagen simply regressed Dogpound into the more primitive but also more dangerous species of origin. The bone spikes are an anomaly, but in each case, it appears to simply be a product of the extreme exposure to the mutagen. In BOTH cases, he was COMPLETELY immersed! Also, his initial mutation was FAR from Deliberate- he and Xever were both mutated as a result of smashing the vat of mutagen at the top of the building- something that the turtles were trying to PREVENT. It was an accident.

I was thinking of how he is the one who deliberately broke the vat - though in fairness he would have had no idea what it would have done (he probably thought it'd explode)

5: Timothy- Non-related powers? Don't think so. The vat he doused himself with was open at the top (as most of them seem to be) which may imply that it was contaminated with bacteria to begin with. He never had SKIN contact with anyone (his costume was a full-body suit)- including the turtles- so that negates the idea that he had prior contact with another creature before getting mutated. His form indicates that he was mutated into whatever organism(s) he was in contact with at the time- ie, common bacteria etc found on the body and/or in the mutagen itself. Nothing unexpected here, either. And his acid is simply part of his digestion, just as with Spiderbytes- amoebas eat by surrounding their "prey" and digesting it inside their own body. Essentially, the amoeba's entire body acts as its stomach. So his acid makes sense.

I have to agree there. I'm thinking more and more, he is a Bacteria/Human mutant. The evidence does keep weighing in that direction.... With that thought I wonder if he can multiply in the same way! :teek:

6: Slash- Accidental, not deliberate. Raph put the canister in his room for safe-keeping, but it rolled off the table. Presumably, it broke open when it fell, and Slash simply got into it much like the turtles themselves did. Whether he did so consciously or not is open to debate, but given that he was just a normal turtle- with the intelligence of such- at the time, it's doubtful he mutated himself on purpose. More likely, he was simply curious, and just realized what had happened to him AFTER he changed.

Fair point, I'm probably assuming more intent on Spike's part than he deserves (Slash did seem to know what he was intending)

7: Karai- her spitting ability is another example of a purely snake-like ability, which again makes perfect sense when one considers that snake venom is injected through the fangs, which act like hypodermic needles. A prime example of this ability is the spitting cobra, which DOES in fact spit the venom from its fangs for up to ten feet- and coincidentally, usually aims for the victims eyes! The two extra heads and ability to (mostly) transform back to a human state is something of an anomaly, but given that the mutagen was contaminated, we don't know what else was in it or how that affected the end result.

It was the heads I was thinking of specifically :)

There is also one theory out there that mutagen act as like a virus since certain viruses can alter dna but if the mutant's mutagen buffer against foreign dna then could it also block actual viruses and thus making all mutants immune to diseases or at least give them a higher immunity then normal?
Also, the virus theory is partly mine, and I'd just like to point out that ALL viruses alter DNA. It's how they reproduce- by inserting their own DNA into the host cell's nucleus, and thus turning the cell into a factory to replicate the virus. However, this doesn't necessarily block out other viruses or make them immune to further mutation. It just means that the mutagen (if it works that way) would be inserting the foreign DNA into the host creature as part of the process. So far, it doesn't seem to have made any of them more immune to illnesses or even to more mutagen. (Mikey's Shellacne being a prime example here.)

That is an interesting theory! :)

I notice some mutants (though certainly not all) do seem to have evidence of mutagen deposits somewhere on their bodies - spiderbytes claws and Pete's neck come to mind)

[Metalwolf]

* It is generally kept sealed. Whilst 'fresh' it appears to most commonly combine the prominent DNA features from a creature that the affected subject recently came in contact with (even if this was some time beforehand, eg Dogpound, Kirby and Fishface). How it determines exactly what creature to combine with from the subjects previous encounters is unclear and may be pot luck.



* We know it burns and that mutation is a painful process. This implies a significant increase in thermal energy during a mutation.

Edit:

* Mutagen has shown to require direct contact exposure. Commonly this is depicted as skin contact - suggesting that the mutagen is absorbed through the epidermis and into the cellular structure of the subject, presumably transferred through the body by moving into the bloodstream and the lymphatic system. *snip*


Initial thoughts? Did I miss anything?My thoughts on this:

For 1. I think it depends on several factors. The exposure has to be very recent (DNA degrades quickly out in the open from UV exposure and bacteria) sufficient quantities (otherwise you'd morph into a giant skin/intestinal parasite as they also live on/inside you) and among the first things the mutagen touches while it's touching you.

2. It's not necessarily a thermal reaction. Strong acids and alkalies burn like a bastard as well.

3. Pretty much. As you mentioned (on an unquoted part) is that it can also be eaten/drunk. The only way we've never seen it operate is through aerosolised spray, and heck we might see that too one day.

How I came to these conclusions is that I did a semi-infamous thought experiment several months back, pretty much imagining myself getting a hold of some mutagen and seeing if I could eventually 'double dip' a al Rahzar. I figured that was the ultimate test, and a nifty way to really think out what a person would have to do in order to avoid getting an unpredictable 'result.' Especially as it would be mutating not once, but twice, and having a potent chance of being 'contaminated' by a undesired DNA source (live cat.) :)

Pretty much I determined that hair, and clothing tended to be traps for DNA contamination (animal hair, scales, dander) and skin not so much, unless it was heavy and/or very very recent. DNA degrades quickly under UV light and bacteria, and often just skin to skin contact doesn't give off enough DNA to work with. It also has to be enough to ensure that another DNA source (like tiny skin/hair parasites) don't get 'used' or you'd end up like a giant gross looking thing. Mutagen age and amount might not even matter, as Slash grew spines on him, and it came from a tiny amount that was only 'decanted' extremely recently. It also depends on what the mutagen contacts first, as this is likely where it gets it's 'blueprint' from in 'remaking' the individual.

In that 'thought experiment,' I pretty much had to douse myself in a clean bathtub with mutagen, only after making sure it was clean and dry, shaving my hair off, fasting for two days (accidental contamination from food) and removing clothes to avoid accidental contamination from a pet cat. I also had to liberally cover myself in wolf goo from a frozen wolf (likely to be a bit more consistent in the end result then a dog breed) to ensure it was enough and not degraded. Then dousing myself again in more mutagen a week or two later (to allow for enough passage of time for things to 'settle' like in Dogpound's case) and hoping it was enough. All of these if left to chance could produce some of the 'unpredictability' result, because so much is variable and you can easily come up with something different if you screwball enough.

The only thing though I would have to mention that you didn't say on here, is that the mutagen might not even need to do much with the DNA to mutate someone. It might get rearranged a little, but what it could also be 'reading' is the epigenetic effects that happened on a species that helped create it. There is only a 2% difference in DNA between chimp and man, but they look and behave dramatically different. Even between cat and human, there is only a 10% difference. These changes are just as inheritable as DNA, and they are caused by environmental stress, diet and other things, and they can persist for many generations. It doesn't alter a gene, but mainly how it 'expresses' itself.

Any ideas on my hypotheses? :)

[Tarris Vaal]

Its interesting that you bring this point up actually - there is some possibility that Mutagen does tend to 'prefer' to mutate similar subject specimens - at least insofar as selecting the 'primary' DNA sources.

We know that most mutants are combined results of 2 creatures

Obviously bacteria is a common factor in all mutations, its ever present and as we know Mutagen can affect multiple subjects simultaneously (Chimera), that it also would include DNA from bacteria present.

That said, this bacterial DNA rarely seems to manifest itself - we get some odd or over exaggerated abilities now and again that 'might' be related to bacteria, plus a general increase in resilience and strength - but almost never an actual 'Bacteria man' (with Timothy as a possible exception)

That said, people like Bradford and Xever would have had contact with several other potential DNA sources in the time period between contact and their mutation, yet they end up mutating with DNA from sources several minutes prior.
Is it possible that the Mutagen actively looks for similar DNA sources on its subjects, allowing easier mutational transition (a path of least resistance if you will)? If so, it would explain why some characters are mutated with one DNA source over another.
Another explanation is that the mutagen looks for quantities. It will take the largest available sources of DNA and use those. Individual bacteria will still have independent DNA and even between them, they are unlikely to provide much quantity, whereas a small dog is likely to shed a lot of hair which would stick to clothing (Dogpound), and its possible Xever simply never washed his hands or under his fingernails after handling that fish.

Neither is a perfect explanation, but it does provide some clues.


There is another possibility, though it is unlikely. It is possible that the mutagen is itself a Semi Sentient creature. It is feasible it is acting like a symbiote (and we know it deposits itself in the body of those it mutates - Raph has his extracted, whilst Pete, Kirby and other mutants visibly have Mutagen deposits).
In this scenario, the mutagen may not be operating on anything more than an instinctual level, and may actually be a kind of colony of creatures (similar to a jellyfish), that coalesce as an ooze like substance with the power to mutate creatures.
It would explain a level of selection in the process - why some DNA sources are used and not others. It may also explain why so many mutants are humanoid (a preferred symbiotic state for the mutagen perhaps?), as well as explaining the preference of enhanced resilience, strength and size.

Thoughts?

[Tarris Vaal]

Added Bebop and Rocksteady to the mutant roster!

Interesting point here is that it is clear that Shredder (or more specifically Baxter) has come to understand the mutagen sufficiently to be able to control the results.

It does appear from the evidence depicted in Snake hunt, that mutagen takes the largest amounts of DNA sources. It makes sense from the Chimera example, that it will also take the freshest sources and is likely to splice from 3+ sources.

This means that any given instance of Mutagen exposure will do the following:

1: Identify primary DNA source (usually some unfortunate human)

2: Identify secondary DNA sources (usually fresh samples from another animal). It appears to prefer the next largest quantity, and the freshest available samples.

3: Identify tertiary DNA sources (usually local bacteria - occasionally a recent live meal). This may be used as a means of stabilising the mutation, but also appears to provide the source of many of the more unusual traits.

4: DNA splicing of sources. Implied endothermic fusion of DNA structures, using Primary source as base - resulting commonly in Humanoid end structure.

5: Emotional state at time of mutation and state of sentience of primary and secondary sources affect end results likelihood of Feral mental state.

6: Mutagen excess evapourates or is absorbed into subjects body as mutagen deposits.

Whole process takes apx 10-20secs and is painful due to physical stresses placed on subjects.


There are a few questions though:

* What happens if two sources that are the same species are exposed? Can they be spliced or is the mutagen unable to identify the DNA as sufficiently different?

* Can Kraang be mutated?

* Does the mutagen go bad and become more unreliable? (is the 'Fresh mutagen' theory correct?)

* What is the minimum dosage to start mutation?

* How does the mutagen select secondary sources of equal quantity? Or would it simply splice them all (ala Justin)?

* Why are some non humanoid primary sources becoming humanoid? (Creep)


disclaimer: I am well aware that I am thinking far too hard about this and have probably gone mad and am the only one who cares. But I've started it now and by Darwin's beard I will finish it! :lol:

[Luckyday]

There are a few questions though:

* What happens if two sources that are the same species are exposed? Can they be spliced or is the mutagen unable to identify the DNA as sufficiently different?

* Can Kraang be mutated?

* Does the mutagen go bad and become more unreliable? (is the 'Fresh mutagen' theory correct?)

* What is the minimum dosage to start mutation?

* How does the mutagen select secondary sources of equal quantity? Or would it simply splice them all (ala Justin)?

* Why are some non humanoid primary sources becoming humanoid? (Creep)


disclaimer: I am well aware that I am thinking far too hard about this and have probably gone mad and am the only one who cares. But I've started it now and by Darwin's beard I will finish it! :lol:

Maybe when mutagen have nothing but your dna sample in it, it will heal injuries since it trying to replicate the likeness of the secondary dna but can still mutate everything else.

This only way to make sense with Creep coming into being through Leo's vomited mutagen medicine.

Did Anton tech became fuse with his body after he became a mutant?

[Tarris Vaal]

Maybe when mutagen have nothing but your dna sample in it, it will heal injuries since it trying to replicate the likeness of the secondary dna but can still mutate everything else.

I dont know his character very well, but didn't Hun have something like that going on?

Did Anton tech became fuse with his body after he became a mutant?

I did notice that as well, but wasn't sure if I was seeing things! Its possible that he does/did have a mohawk under the laser emitter....thing, and clothes in mutations vary dramatically (Steranko's clothing also completely altered)

Guess we'll find out when and if Bebop uses the mohawk to throw energy blasts at people again.

[Tarris Vaal]

An interesting point that came up from a rewatch of the new episode - Karai mentions she is dangerous and the others jump on the assumption she is slowly becoming more feral - losing herself to the snake.

Though she has had 3 months on her own in a warzone...

That aside, it did make me wonder if this is a feature of some mutations, or an aspect of the effects of Baxter's tampering with the mutagen used on Karai.

I cant think of any other examples of semi feral mutants or even feral mutants becoming more so over extended time periods. The Turtles and Splinter would themselves be prime candidates if this was a common effect as they're among the oldest mutants in the show!

But the only other possible example is Snakeweed (when he starts kidnapping humans to turn into fertilizer) and that is pretty tenuous as he is clearly still able to speak and reason.

I am missing someone who also showed that effect?

[Metalwolf]

I'm copy-pasting my response entirely from the 'Serpent Hunt' thread, mainly because I doubt it will get discussed much since it looks like it's winding down, and also because it dovetails nicely with the question you are asking:

"I'm wondering though, maybe it's the 'spliced' DNA causing this? Can animal DNA even cause somebody to become more animal-like in behavior, or do you think that some of this is purely mental, akin to people who think they're wolves (lycanthropy)?

I admit I was also bothered a bit at the notion that some of this DNA was actively 'spliced' and that mutants are 'hybrids,' pretty much because any changes to DNA will be very small and a lot of it is already shared (like 90% similarity between human and cat, for instance, or 96% now understood between human and chimp.) You can't have too much change, or you lose the ability for humanlike reasoning, ability to speak, and so on. I'm wondering if the mutants aren't really just like those lab animals that you hear about, only having a gene or two spliced in, but gaining the whole ability to 'glow' under florescent lights (cats and pigs) or have spider silk protein in their milk (goats.) Humans can grow horns even without mutation, and they don't need animal DNA to have tails or tons of hair or act feral, but maybe the mutagen just 'switches on' those atavistic or abnormal traits when it isn't making a small change to the DNA.

I don't know, I'm just rambling here. Each episode seems to have something I like, and yet another thing I could have easily done without. :ohwell: "

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I dont know his character very well, but didn't Hun have something like that going on?


I did notice that as well, but wasn't sure if I was seeing things! Its possible that he does/did have a mohawk under the laser emitter....thing, and clothes in mutations vary dramatically (Steranko's clothing also completely altered)

Guess we'll find out when and if Bebop uses the mohawk to throw energy blasts at people again.


Yes, Hun does become enhanced in the IDW comics. It's debatable if it was actual mutagen or just the base "ooze", however.

And yes Anton DOES have a Mohawk. He always has in every incarnation, though it's usually purple, not pink. It's part of his "persona" as a street-thug (or in this case thief).

And contrary to what most seem to think, I don't think the mutagen affects clothing beyond tearing it in the process of the mutation. It's a very drastic bodily alteration (a la Hulk), and is likely to cause the body itself to rip through clothing and tear it to pieces. What's left behind is usually whatever was on parts of the body that didn't change drastically- like why Dogpound wears pants but no shirt. His upper half became too large for his shirt, but his lower half didn't change much at all. Fishface changed so much he lost ALL his clothes, and Timothy did, as well. Karai lost everything below the waits when she grew the tail. (Though she's inexplicably dressed in her human form....) This seems to hold true for all the mutants that were originally human- whatever they were wearing is rendered useless by the change, and falls off/apart.

[Luckyday]

Perhaps it all depends on the chemistry on the clothes or any inorganic material. I think ice cream is made mostly of oxygen and hydrogen and other metals can get along with the other elements.

Organic life forms themselves are made of CHNOPS: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and sulfur.

What I want to know do all organics have the same amount of the building blocks of CHNOPS?

[Tarris Vaal]

Organic life forms themselves are made of CHNOPS: carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and sulfur.

What I want to know do all organics have the same amount of the building blocks of CHNOPS?

I dont think so - though I imagine that very large groups of animals will have very similar proportions of those elements (mammals for instance). I will have to check into that one :)

I admit I was also bothered a bit at the notion that some of this DNA was actively 'spliced' and that mutants are 'hybrids,' pretty much because any changes to DNA will be very small and a lot of it is already shared (like 90% similarity between human and cat, for instance, or 96% now understood between human and chimp.) You can't have too much change, or you lose the ability for humanlike reasoning, ability to speak, and so on. I'm wondering if the mutants aren't really just like those lab animals that you hear about, only having a gene or two spliced in, but gaining the whole ability to 'glow' under florescent lights (cats and pigs) or have spider silk protein in their milk (goats.) Humans can grow horns even without mutation, and they don't need animal DNA to have tails or tons of hair or act feral, but maybe the mutagen just 'switches on' those atavistic or abnormal traits when it isn't making a small change to the DNA

I'd expect mutagen does work in a similar way - that it is literally altering very small - but key - parts of the primary subjects DNA to incorporate aspects of any secondary and tertiary subjects. Given that the vast majority of mutants are humanoid (or based off their primary subjects physical form) it seems logical that massive alterations to DNA are not normally the case

Though having said that, Timothy, the Creep and Karai appear to be exceptions - Karai being only slightly more than usual.

And contrary to what most seem to think, I don't think the mutagen affects clothing beyond tearing it in the process of the mutation. It's a very drastic bodily alteration (a la Hulk), and is likely to cause the body itself to rip through clothing and tear it to pieces. What's left behind is usually whatever was on parts of the body that didn't change drastically- like why Dogpound wears pants but no shirt. His upper half became too large for his shirt, but his lower half didn't change much at all. Fishface changed so much he lost ALL his clothes, and Timothy did, as well.

The simplest explanation is always the best! :)

Karai lost everything below the waist when she grew the tail. (Though she's inexplicably dressed in her human form....)


That... is a very good point. :ohwell: I know its only for the purposes of keeping the censors happy but it does throw a spanner in the works for the purposes of this thread :) (not to mention, can you imagine the Turtles faces if she didn't get her clothes returned when mutating back?)

This is frustrating because Kirby states he is nude upon returning to human form - though in fairness to him at very least his upper clothing is shown to be ripping.

So - to explain that then, we know that Karai was fully submerged and not merely splashed, so her armour is fully exposed to Mutagen as she was. Armour plates like her greaves, bracers and gloves could have been incorporated into the make up of her scales, and possibly teeth. The rest of her clothing is likely to be boots and a bodysuit, and quite possibly a natural fibre like cotton - which would have its own DNA - however if it were to be retromutated, its more likely to return to its natural form. The armour plates would also likely be returned to a state similar to filings or dust (or scales) and it beggars the question why not the breastplate...

Sooooooo.... one possibility is that we know that even in human form she is not retromutated - she is still a mutant and exhibits shape shifting abilities. We also know that she is in a weak mental state and is likely to fall back onto familiar thought processess.

Is it possible that the clothing we see when she is in human form is not actually clothing? Perhaps her uniform is a symbol of the persona she is most comfortable in and when she shifts into human form, she is shifting herself into a form which matches that which she is most comfortable in - effectively copying her mental image of herself.
Perhaps her 'real' clothing really was destroyed or discarded except for the breastplate, the rest is just skin, scales and bone made to 'look' like her original form - rather similar to the effect Mystique has in the Xmen franchise.

That would at least offer some explanation that works, though would give her highly unusual abilities not found in snakes (though that wouldnt be the first time unrelated abilities appeared in a mutant). If it was the case, then in theory she should be capable of turning into other appearances with tell tale signs like eyes and teeth - she just isnt aware she can do so, and isnt practiced to do so.


"I'm wondering though, maybe it's the 'spliced' DNA causing this? Can animal DNA even cause somebody to become more animal-like in behavior, or do you think that some of this is purely mental, akin to people who think they're wolves (lycanthropy)?

Well its possible, but feral mutations are comparatively rare, and some examples appear to be feral because of other mental stresses - Karai for instance. Even Timothy has fear, hate, disappointment, disgust and anger affecting him - more than enough to induce a feral state (or at least the appearance of one)

Most feral mutations are generally feral creatures to begin with. Kirby is about the only example of true feral behaviour without the existing mental stress to potentially induce it anyway.

[NoName999]

Here's the major hole with the mutagen:

So the mutagen is suppose to turn into the last thing you touched yes? At first, we'd just assumed that the last thing you touched HAD to be a living organism. Which is how we got Snakeweed (human touching plant) and the Pigeon Man (pigeon touching human). Which could also explain Timothy's mutation as a being a giant bacteria, virus, whatever

But the problem stems from one mutant: Ice Cream Kitty. She touched ice cream. Ice cream obviously isn't alive. So her mutation should have mutated her into a human since April was the last to touched her (if not that, at least part Kraang lol). So the mutagen transforms you into the last physical thing you touched, living or not.

So that begs the question why every human, who are CLEARLY wearing clothes when they mutated, are not turning into fabric people or whatever.

[Tarris Vaal]

Speed demon (and possibly Pizza face) also falls into this awkward category -

The best explanation is that mutagen can react with semi organic components (food and natural fibres) and absorbs them along with the primary subject.

Under normal circumstances ICK technically had the most contact with April and/or Mikey so, in theory should have become a humanoid cat (not dissimilar to Tigerclaw), however obviously this didnt happen.

It can be explained a little by realising that the mutagen reaction had already started before it came into contact with the cat. Mikey had spilled Ice cream into the mutagen a short time prior. The mutagen was clearly reacting to the ice cream and then the cat came into contact with the mix.

Best guess to explain the situation would be that the Ice cream is the Primary Subject - but because it isn't alive it can't mutate into anything beyond mush. If left alone it probably would have fizzled out and become inert. As it was, the cat started eating it, giving the mix a secondary subject with a dash of Mikey and the usual bacteria as tertiary.

The result is an Ice cream mutant that bears cat like qualities but is able to have limited understanding of English (inherited memory perhaps?)

Thats my best guess based on evidence anyway :)


Speed demon's best guess explanation was a bit earlier. Ive avoided Pizza face because I cant decide if the episode is genius or was just a fevered dream I had.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The simplest explanation is always the best! :)


That... is a very good point. :ohwell: I know its only for the purposes of keeping the censors happy but it does throw a spanner in the works for the purposes of this thread :) (not to mention, can you imagine the Turtles faces if she didn't get her clothes returned when mutating back?)

This is frustrating because Kirby states he is nude upon returning to human form - though in fairness to him at very least his upper clothing is shown to be ripping.

Sooooooo.... one possibility is that we know that even in human form she is not retromutated - she is still a mutant and exhibits shape shifting abilities. We also know that she is in a weak mental state and is likely to fall back onto familiar thought processess.

Is it possible that the clothing we see when she is in human form is not actually clothing? Perhaps her uniform is a symbol of the persona she is most comfortable in and when she shifts into human form, she is shifting herself into a form which matches that which she is most comfortable in - effectively copying her mental image of herself.
Perhaps her 'real' clothing really was destroyed or discarded except for the breastplate, the rest is just skin, scales and bone made to 'look' like her original form - rather similar to the effect Mystique has in the Xmen franchise.

That would at least offer some explanation that works, though would give her highly unusual abilities not found in snakes (though that wouldnt be the first time unrelated abilities appeared in a mutant). If it was the case, then in theory she should be capable of turning into other appearances with tell tale signs like eyes and teeth - she just isnt aware she can do so, and isnt practiced to do so.

Well its possible, but feral mutations are comparatively rare, and some examples appear to be feral because of other mental stresses - Karai for instance. Even Timothy has fear, hate, disappointment, disgust and anger affecting him - more than enough to induce a feral state (or at least the appearance of one)

Most feral mutations are generally feral creatures to begin with. Kirby is about the only example of true feral behaviour without the existing mental stress to potentially induce it anyway.

I'm not entirely sure her clothes would even be affected by it. For starters, the metal parts would have no organic compounds (beyond traces from HER) to react with/to the mutagen. The "organic" parts (assuming they ARE, and not synthetic materials) would simply be inert, as they would no longer have any living material to mutate. Cotton fiber or silk are organically PRODUCED, but are not living themselves, certainly not after having been processed. They'd be "dead" organic material, not something the mutagen could interact with. I think it really IS the simplest explanation- most mutants rip through their clothes, and Karai's "clothes" in human form are just what you originally guessed- an attempt to appease the censors. That said, it IS possible it is a form of camouflage of sorts, as some reptiles (mostly lizards, granted) are capable of changing color to match their surroundings. In this case, it's more likely the "camouflage" is adapted to mimic clothes for the sake of modesty. Assuming such a thing is possible in the first place, of course.


Here's the major hole with the mutagen:

So the mutagen is suppose to turn into the last thing you touched yes? At first, we'd just assumed that the last thing you touched HAD to be a living organism. Which is how we got Snakeweed (human touching plant) and the Pigeon Man (pigeon touching human). Which could also explain Timothy's mutation as a being a giant bacteria, virus, whatever

But the problem stems from one mutant: Ice Cream Kitty. She touched ice cream. Ice cream obviously isn't alive. So her mutation should have mutated her into a human since April was the last to touched her (if not that, at least part Kraang lol). So the mutagen transforms you into the last physical thing you touched, living or not.

So that begs the question why every human, who are CLEARLY wearing clothes when they mutated, are not turning into fabric people or whatever.


Again, the fabric would be dead/inert, and thus the mutagen has nothing to interact with. In every case so far, it has only interacted with LIVING organic materials and/or subjects. Even the "exceptions" of ICK and Pizza Face (if he's not a dream-induced fantasy) are composed of organic components that are still active- ice cream has live cultures in the cream, so ICK is basically part cat, part- milk cultures. Weird, but plausible. Pizza Face (if "real") would have the genetic material from the tomatoes, onions, mushrooms, and perhaps the cheese cultures as secondary subjects, so while it's peculiar, there is still LIVING material for the mutagen to work with- clothing doesn't have that.


Speed demon (and possibly Pizza face) also falls into this awkward category -

The best explanation is that mutagen can react with semi organic components (food) and absorbs them along with the primary subject.

Under normal circumstances ICK technically had the most contact with April and/or Mikey so, in theory should have become a humanoid cat (not dissimilar to Tigerclaw), however obviously this didnt happen.

It can be explained a little by realising that the mutagen reaction had already started before it came into contact with the cat. Mikey had spilled Ice cream into the mutagen a short time prior. The mutagen was clearly reacting to the ice cream and then the cat came into contact with the mix.

Best guess to explain the situation would be that the Ice cream is the Primary Subject - but because it isn't alive it can't mutate into anything beyond mush. If left alone it probably would have fizzled out and become inert. As it was, the cat started eating it, giving the mix a secondary subject with a dash of Mikey and the usual bacteria as tertiary.

The result is an Ice cream mutant that bears cat like qualities but is able to have limited understanding of English (inherited memory perhaps?)

Thats my best guess based on evidence anyway :)

Speed demon's best guess explanation was a bit earlier. Ive avoided Pizza face because I cant decide if the episode is genius or was just a fevered dream I had.


See above for ICK and Pizza Face. Incidentally, she seems semi-intelligent because the last thing she touched BEFORE eating the mutagen-ice-cream mix was Mikey- this might also explain why they understand each other and have such a strong bond. He's literally part of her!

[Tarris Vaal]

Certainly if what we are supposing is the case then yes ICK would carry a chunk of Mikey's DNA!

Thinking on this it would also imply a few interesting thoughts:

Ice Cream Kitty is partly related to Mikey

Slash is related to Raphael

A possibility that not all the turtles are actually descended from the same human 'parent' - as we only have the mental flashback image of the Turtle's origin to work with, and Splinter doesn't physically touch them during that sequence, we can only presume that Splinter handled them earlier and thereby left DNA traces to mutate with. Its possible that one or more of the Turtles may actually be descended from the pet store attendant...


I'm not entirely sure her clothes would even be affected by it. For starters, the metal parts would have no organic compounds (beyond traces from HER) to react with/to the mutagen.

My only quibble with this are her shoulder pads when in snake form. In that... she has shoulder pads in snake form. These are clearly metallic and are quite a distinct visual style to match her reptillian form, yet they dont exist at all when she's in human form. This is - needless to say - frustrating.

On an unrelated note

Rewatching some of season 2 and I noticed Sir Malachi is missing a leg. He clearly has an artificial leg in the flashback of him mutating, and has a peg leg as a mutant. This implies that the mutagen did not regenerate the missing limb, which at least answers the question of whether the mutation causes healing (apparently not). It is possible Malachi had a genetic deviation that caused his leg not to develop properly - which would then be passed into his mutation.

[Luckyday]

A possibility that not all the turtles are actually descended from the same human 'parent' - as we only have the mental flashback image of the Turtle's origin to work with, and Splinter doesn't physically touch them during that sequence, we can only presume that Splinter handled them earlier and thereby left DNA traces to mutate with. Its possible that one or more of the Turtles may actually be descended from the pet store attendant...


So this attendant might have blue eyes, gap tooth, freckles, and possibly a stout body type?

[Tarris Vaal]

Given that the Japanese themselves are notoriously homogeneous (they have very similar genetic nature), it would make sense that anyone descended from Splinter would have black hair (not really an issue here), but importantly Brown eyes.

Donnie and Leo do, but not Raph or Mikey. Now Green eyes are extremely unlikely but I'd be willing to say its just about possible - particularly given that the primary sources are Turtle rather than human DNA - though most turtle species have black eyes.

Mikey's blue eyes are... highly unusual and certainly not a trait inherited from Splinter. Raph's are also very unlikely to have come from Hamato Yoshi (though in fairness I am assuming Hamato Yoshi is himself 100% Japanese genetic heritage)

An interesting point to note anyway - though it has little to do with the mutagen, it might make for a worthy point of discussion elsewhere.

[victory_angel]

Given that the Japanese themselves are notoriously homogeneous (they have very similar genetic nature), it would make sense that anyone descended from Splinter would have black hair (not really an issue here), but importantly Brown eyes.

Donnie and Leo do, but not Raph or Mikey. Now Green eyes are extremely unlikely but I'd be willing to say its just about possible - particularly given that the primary sources are Turtle rather than human DNA - though most turtle species have black eyes.

Mikey's blue eyes are... highly unusual and certainly not a trait inherited from Splinter. Raph's are also very unlikely to have come from Hamato Yoshi (though in fairness I am assuming Hamato Yoshi is himself 100% Japanese genetic heritage)

An interesting point to note anyway - though it has little to do with the mutagen, it might make for a worthy point of discussion elsewhere.

Leo's eyes are actually a dark blue. Donnie is the only one with brown eyes.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

So this attendant might have blue eyes, gap tooth, freckles, and possibly a stout body type?


Possible, but that doesn't explain Raph's eyes! They're green....


Given that the Japanese themselves are notoriously homogeneous (they have very similar genetic nature), it would make sense that anyone descended from Splinter would have black hair (not really an issue here), but importantly Brown eyes.

Donnie and Leo do, but not Raph or Mikey. Now Green eyes are extremely unlikely but I'd be willing to say its just about possible - particularly given that the primary sources are Turtle rather than human DNA - though most turtle species have black eyes.

Mikey's blue eyes are... highly unusual and certainly not a trait inherited from Splinter. Raph's are also very unlikely to have come from Hamato Yoshi (though in fairness I am assuming Hamato Yoshi is himself 100% Japanese genetic heritage)


Not entirely true. MOST turtles actually have eyes in variations of yellow, brown, orange, or green, with a strong black bar across the middle. I've recently spent extensive time and effort researching turtle genetics and appearance variations, complete with compiling oodles of photos of various species for comparative reference. MOST of them have yellow eyes or shades of brown or greenish, and occasionally orange, grey, or red. Very dark eyes seems to be limited mostly to sea turtles and a few species of tortoises.

However, I read a news article recently about a rare blue-eyed variant of a sea turtle that was in captivity, so it's not impossible for one to have such a color even in the wild. And there are also albino turtles, which of course have pink or red eyes.

That said, Mikey's and Leo's eye colors most likely came from a human, and possibly Raph's as well. Not Yoshi, certainly, but it IS possible for a person to have genes for more than one eye-color, since each person inherits genes from BOTH parents. Thus, while a person may have brown eyes, they could have the gene for blue ones if one of their parents had blue eyes. Any DNA the turtles got from a human could very well have genes for any of the above colors- blue, brown, OR green, or even have genes for TWO colors.

This leads to some interesting possibilities of how the genes lined up in each of the four- Leo's mutation probably used human eye genes, ditto with Mikey's and Raph's. Donnie's appear almost red at times, so his are probably from the turtle side. So their mutations appear to have drawn differently from each of their two "halves" in each case. This raises the question of just how similar they are on a genetic level.


Leo's eyes are actually a dark blue. Donnie is the only one with brown eyes.


Ditto this. Was going to point out Leo's eye color. Ya beat me to it.

[Tarris Vaal]

Quote:
Originally Posted by victory_angel View Post
Leo's eyes are actually a dark blue. Donnie is the only one with brown eyes.

Ditto this. Was going to point out Leo's eye color. Ya beat me to it.

Sorry sirs, my bad :(

That said, Mikey's and Leo's eye colors most likely came from a human, and possibly Raph's as well. Not Yoshi, certainly, but it IS possible for a person to have genes for more than one eye-color, since each person inherits genes from BOTH parents. Thus, while a person may have brown eyes, they could have the gene for blue ones if one of their parents had blue eyes. Any DNA the turtles got from a human could very well have genes for any of the above colors- blue, brown, OR green, or even have genes for TWO colors.

Interesting though - as this implies its more likely their eye colour came from their Turtle DNA. Its highly unlikely they would get blue or green eyes from Hamato Yoshi -unless he himself is half Japanese, which we dont know - even if he was its unlikely given that blue and green eyes are weaker genes and will generally less likely to occur where brown eyes are an option.

That said, it is possible the mutagen would muddy the waters on how the standard inherited genetics would work, perhaps drawing on all available possibilities and selecting at random (which is why we have such a wide variety among the 4 of them)

Snakeweed is another one which has unusual eyes, given the supposedly limited genetic selection to choose from, his are distinctly non human.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

But we already know Yoshi didn't touch them himself in the origin flashback. More likely, their genes came from the pet shop clerk. Daily feeding, health checks, and the periodic changing of water in their terrarium would certainly bring them into contact with PLENTY of human DNA traces. Handling is important with pet turtles to get them used to humans, and many pet store clerks will play with them for that reason. I'm betting their DNA is Caucasian, not Japanese. And Splinter IS full-blood Japanese, according to the various flashbacks, particularly the one in Kuro Kabuto, where it talks about the clan feuds between the Hamato and Foot clans. So that takes him right out of the picture in terms of being their biological "father".

As for the turtles' eye color, note I said RARELY are blue eyes found. Thus far, the sea turtle example (which is EXTREMELY rare itself) is the ONLY ONE I've come across. Green is slightly more common than some of the other colors I mentioned above like grey or red, but it's still not nearly as common as yellow or (usually very light) brown or orange/copper(this one can be considered a variation of either yellow or brown, depending on shade.). So it still stands as more likely from the human side. From the evidence, Donnie is the only one who probably got his color from the turtle side, as even green(ish) eyes on turtles are usually very washed out and have grey or brown in them. Donnie's brown-red ones look the most like a true turtle color. The other three all look very human-like colors. (Especially Leo's and Raph's- both are far too vivid for turtle eyes. Only humans have eyes so brightly tinted....)

[Tarris Vaal]

Just adding in some extra details from new observations of the latest trio of episodes.

Note: Spoilers for Battle of New York


* Rocksteady's knuckledusters appear to have fused with the flesh of his hands. Although most evidence from previous episodes would counter against this, this does appear to add to the instances of odd things happening to metal objects affected alongside mutated biological subjects (Karai, Speed Demon)

* Both Bebop and Rocksteady are clearly sane (at least as much as they ever were). That said, they both exhibit swift inclinations to adopt some of the animal characteristics they have gained (notably Rocksteady's temper). This is particularly interesting given that the creatures they were fused with were DNA samples only and not living creatures with developed personality traits.

* Dr Rockwell is also clearly sane, though it is not readily explained why he has suddenly become so after being clearly feral in previous appearances. It is possible to speculate that in a similar manner to Karai's mental state deteriorating due to modifications to the mutagen used on her, that Rockwell's mental state is slowly improving as a result of the experiments conducted on him.

* The Retromutagen MkII is clearly vastly superior and incredibly fast acting. Given that such a speedy physical mutation should be intensely painful and traumatic, there is no obvious evidence of this in the following scenes. This suggests that there is an anesthetic quality to the new formula. It remains to be seen how much memory the citizens of New York retain following their time in dimension X

[neatoman]

So here's a question, if the mutagen needed to be altered to work on earth, why would retromutagen created on earth work in Dimension X?

[victory_angel]

* Dr Rockwell is also clearly sane, though it is not readily explained why he has suddenly become so after being clearly feral in previous appearances. It is possible to speculate that in a similar manner to Karai's mental state deteriorating due to modifications to the mutagen used on her, that Rockwell's mental state is slowly improving as a result of the experiments conducted on him.


Rockwell explains the Kraang captured him and altered his intelligence.

[Tarris Vaal]

Rockwell explains the Kraang captured him and altered his intelligence.

Thanks V - I knew I needed another excuse to watch it again :)

So here's a question, if the mutagen needed to be altered to work on earth, why would retromutagen created on earth work in Dimension X?

That is a really, really good question :ohwell:

I guess the cheap answer would be that the Retromutagen MkII does work where normal retromutagen does not (at least then we could blame Mikey's influence - which seems appropriate), but it does feel like there should be a better answer than 'Because it does' :(

That said, we dont know if MkI retromutagen would work or not as it was never tested in Dimension X. It may be that the Retromutagen formula works regardless where it is used.

[Tarris Vaal]

The Mutagen effect on metals

I've been trying to figure out a way - in universe - how the mutagen appears to affect armour and metal attachments on mutated subjects. Critical to this line of rambling are:

Cockroach Terminator
Speed Demon
Karai
Rocksteady
Dogpound
Maybe Bebop

And wildcard Baxter Stockman

These are the primary instances involving a character wearing extensive metalwork. In each example;

Terminator clearly fuses with the various technological parts glued/strapped to his shell prior to mutation. These appear to directly fuse to his shell post mutation and in one case - the buzzsaw - are actively incorporated into a fleshy limb - a bone equivalent of the original saw on a larger scale.
Interestingly, none of these components appears to fuse to the internal flesh, only the exoskeleton.

Speed Demon was discussed earlier, however to reiterate - it is likely Speed Demon was a combination of roadkill and petrochemicals in the engine. In a similar manner to Terminator, it uses the metalwork present as a kind of exoskeletal armour - growing into it rather than with it - which is why the car itself doesnt increase in size.

Karai's armour, whilst thought to just be 'worn' by the snake Karai, does alter its appearance when she is in snake form. It also alters to protect her underbelly, taking the appearance of scales. Her shoulder pads are the most dramatic - in that they exist when she is in snake form and vanish when she isnt. Needless to say Karai poses a significant question. How and why does it change? Why is it there when she mutates into semi human form?

In a similar way to many mutations Rocksteady's clothing undergoes a significant change post mutation. In most cases the clothing vanishes (presumably destroyed) or is absorbed into the final mutant's body mass. Rocksteady is similar, but with notable differences:
- His clothing is completely different to his prior outfit. Though likely a nod to his OT roots, this is extremely annoying to explain 'in universe'. The best explanation is the simplest - these are clothes he was wearing beneath his coat.
- His shoulder pads, while reminiscent of those he wore prior to mutation, are significantly larger and a different shape. This brings us again to the question of how metal is affected by mutagen.
- His knuckle dusters are partially fused into the flesh of his fingers. This again implies that something is going on with the effects of mutagen on metal, and shows the interaction between flesh and metal. Further hints of metal in the veins of his upper arms is also visible.

Dogpound completely loses his upper clothing post mutation. This is likely due to the expanding muscle mass of his upper body, however, it is interesting to note that his original costume includes small series of spiked shoulder pads. Post mutation, he randomly has large shoulder spikes made of bone - hardly a normal dog trait. It is possible to theorize that the bone spikes are an echo of that original costume, perhaps again an absorption of the metal into the bone during mutation. Unlike Rocksteady, Dogpound's spikes are clearly bone, and are frequently shown to suffer damage.

Bebop is a big question mark. It is a possibility that his suit has fused with him, however this has not been confirmed and isnt immediately obvious from his appearance.

Baxter Stockman is a wildcard as he clearly doesn't lose his clothing post mutation (nor gain in size for that matter). The collar is also shown to break off, but its not clear whether it was removed immediately prior to mutation or was broken off afterwards. As such it appears that the mutation does not absorb his clothing nor destroy it, and that he didn't absorb the metalwork about his neck (potentially). It is just about feasible that the clothing 'did' fuse with him, as he has never changed it and it doesnt appear to be suffering damage despite the high likelihood of acid splash from his eating habits. Alternatively he may just have an insanely large stock of pink jumpers.


So with that settled, we can estimate the following effects that mutagen appears to have on metal;

* Metal items appear to be mutable in a similar way to organic, but are restricted to fusing with organic subjects and do not mutate individually.

* Metal items appear to need to be in very close proximity in order to mutate into the subject. Direct contact at time of the mutation (and possibly throughout) is necessary

* Metalwork does not necessarily mutate with the subject. Skin contact appears to be necessary, though its possible that limited clothing layers (skin tight bodysuits) may be insufficient to prevent fusion.

* Metalwork fused with the subject appears to remain inert. Rocksteady's veins do not appear to move, Cockroach terminators bionics appear only to be part of his exoskeleton, and Karai's armour appears to incorporate into her scales.

* Metalwork that includes machinery and moving parts appear to continue to work as originally intended and becomes incorporated as part of the subject. It is probable that they are powered using organic processes. Both Terminator and Speed demon clearly operate machinery as part of their bodily function. Potentially Bebop also falls into this category, however we are told he has his suit 'fixed' which implies that his suit is not fused as Stockman is an engineer and not a geneticist / biologist /surgeon (but then he obviously has been branching out recently into other areas of science)

* Some metalwork appears to be fully incorporated into the subjects bone/exoskeleton. Machine parts that have this occur retain their original function. Examples include Terminator's saw and potentially Dogpound's shoulder spikes. In theory, the metal would have to be completely dissolved and absorbed into the bone tissue during mutation, creating a bone alloy. It may seem unlikely Dogpound's spikes are in this category because they break so often, but a bone alloy does not necessarily equate to stronger bones.

* The metalwork retains 'shadows' of its previous form, suggesting it does not fully mutate - in a similar manner perhaps why most mutants remain humanoid. Rocksteady's shoulder pads alter, but are clearly still shoulderpads, his knuckledusters are fused but are clearly still knuckledusters, Karai's armour is still obviously a breastplate, Speed Demon is still clearly a car, and so on. This may be caused by the inert nature of the metal, preventing it from being fully mutated with the organic subject.



This then leads to the question of why does the metal mutate at all? If metal mutates (even partially) then why not tarmac, stone or soil? Well the Creep clearly does mutate with soil, creating a plant mutant similar to the Fungus Humungous, so its possible soil DOES mutate in a similar way to other organic matter. We have previously theorised that Speed Demon is partly a petrochemical mutant, which again suggests that inert semi organic components can be affected if also exposed to a organic subject.

To date there has been no fully robotic mutant, nor a fully stone or tarmac one, despite Mutagen shown to be spilled over such surfaces. As such, it seems likely that metal, stone or other inert objects cannot mutate alone and require an organic component to complete the process.

It seems likely that the mutagen does fuse exposed metal, stone, fabric and other inert objects into any mutated subject as part of its normal processes. This would explain why several mutants lose their clothing completely (beyond it being torn to shreds). It is possible that the fabric is literally absorbed into the subject, which may explain why several mutants increase in mass, as they absorb additional mass from the exposed objects in the immediate vicinity.
It also explains why Karai is wearing clothes when she changes. They are literally forming out of her flesh as she retromutates.

It does not explain why Kirby is nude when he retromutates. Though we do not see underneath the blanket post retromutation and its possible the clothes are underneath and no one noticed.

This would imply that Bebop is indeed fused to his clothing, as Baxter is to his pink jumper. Its possible Bebop's body suit's technological element prevents it from being fully absorbed into his body and forms a kind of exoskeleton. Whereas with Baxter, he was only exposed to relatively small amounts of mutagen, perhaps insufficient to allow him to fully absorb his clothing as anything more than an 'outer skin'.


Which then brings us back to the question of Karai's armour.

Because of Karai's unique mutation, there is a lot of speculation over how the rules apply to her. Needless to say, the armour is dramatically different in shape and style in humanoid and snake forms. We can postulate her armour is likely a steel alloy from appearance, intended to be strong and light to allow her to be able to move quickly without encumbrance. Most body armour is designed to protect from the weapons used by the person wearing it (as its the most likely grade of weapon it will have to be protecting them from). In Karai's case, this is bladed weapons. A bit of google fu reveals that the most likely armour type to protect against that involves hard shell resin and possibly kevlar (not dissimilar to Batman).

Assuming this is the case for the Foot clan elite, that would mean her armour is actually closer to an organic compound than a metallic one, which may explain why it changes form so dramatically and why it can fuse with her scales so well.

Following that line of thought, it also implies that as her human form is not fully human, its possible that the armour remains fused to her (and likely the rest of her clothing as well). This would at least remove any question of what happens were she to strip her armour off in human form and then remutate.


Thoughts?

[Amaranthus]

Did you figure out the Creep yet?
My theory is that he got mutated by Leo's vomit because the elixir came into contact with Leo, thus giving it mutagen characteristics again.

[Tarris Vaal]

Not yet :) I will try that one next I think (unless something major comes up in next couple of eps)

Good idea though :)

[Metalwolf]

Dogpound completely loses his upper clothing post mutation. This is likely due to the expanding muscle mass of his upper body, however, it is interesting to note that his original costume includes small series of spiked shoulder pads. Post mutation, he randomly has large shoulder spikes made of bone - hardly a normal dog trait. It is possible to theorize that the bone spikes are an echo of that original costume, perhaps again an absorption of the metal into the bone during mutation. Unlike Rocksteady, Dogpound's spikes are clearly bone, and are frequently shown to suffer damage.

The only problem with this part is that Slash also has this condition, and he had nothing metal on his body. Plus Steranko and Anton both had metal on their bodies and they never developed any abnormal spines.

The only thing I can think of that what the spines are to explain a lot of things, is that they might actually be composed similar to a rhino's horn and aren't actually true bone. Rhino horns are made of keratin, which is what turtle scales and mammal hair both heavily contain, which would also explain any cut spines' rapid regrowth over just a month or so. Even though rhino horns are ultimately just highly compressed hair, they can be strong enough to tear holes through car doors (or even help flip one) which makes them pretty useful (or pretty scary is used against you by an angry rhino.)

[Tarris Vaal]

Slash is a little more understandable though - as serrated shells are not unheard of among turtles and terrapins. It could be an exaggeration of an existing dna trait in his case.

That they are Keratin is almost certainly true :) Especially in Dogpound's case, he seems to lose the tip of that spine every few episodes through season 1 / 2

As though Anton and Zek, they did have some metal and it does appear to have fused with them (certainly Anton anyway). As I mentioned, there are his knuckledusters and a weird veining in his upper arms that looks metallic.

Zek is anyone's guess, but for my thinking at least I think VA may be right that his suit is potentially fused to him.


That said, you are correct that they didnt manifest spines (though Rocksteady's shoulder spikes certainly became more pronounced. Cant really think of a way of explaining that 'in universe')

[Tarris Vaal]

Checking into Zek and his suit - the action figures come to the rescue and confirm what some of us already suspected!

The suit is definitely - at least partially - fused to him. This would add further weight to the idea that metalwork in close proximity does fuse with organic material when exposed to mutagen. Interestingly in Zek's case we know that his suit was also repaired and is obviously a more complex piece of equipment than any previously seen on a mutant.

This implies that not only can Mutagen create Cyborgs, but that advanced (and likely delicate) equipment retains its functions post mutation.

In theory, to prevent damage to biological functions, any metalwork incorporated into the flesh, would have to be fused into the epidermal layer and or potentially grafted onto the bone . In theory, this would depend upon the subjects involved in the mutation; Reptillian and insectoid mutants would likely have metalwork incorporated into scales and exoskeletons - its the primary point of contact during mutation and would follow natural rules more closely - because there is a natural precedent for protective armoured layers in those genetic groups, the metal work on the subject is simply incorporated along those lines. Machinery (such as buzzsaws) becomes part of the same bone/exoskeletal tissue.

In the case of Mammalian mutants, metalwork would likely be fused into the flesh and skin. There is no natural equivalent in the DNA for the mutagen to follow, so the mutagen would likely follow the most basic pattern. This may be why Rocksteady's knuckledusters are still plainly knuckledusters, and why Zek's suit remains largely functional without becoming plainly organic in nature. It may also explain why Speed demon is still a car and not a transformer.

This does mean however that Rocksteady's skin - though tough - must hurt like hell whenever he punches something. In theory the knuckledusters wouldnt be fused to the finger bones and would 'slide' the flesh of his fist each time they are impacted.

It would also imply that Bebop can never remove his jacket or any other part of the suit connected to the suit's power source. At least not without potentially pulling the cybernetic components out of his own flesh. Unpleasant thought.

[Tarris Vaal]

The Creep Question

The Creep. This is an unusual mutant because it isnt formed from the classic mutagen, nor a weaponized equivalent. Instead this is created following an attempt by Donatello to create a mutagen based ingested medicine to help Leo recover from his injuries.

This has a few interesting factors straight off;

* Donatello clearly believes that the mutagen has some healing properties (why else would he feed it to his injured brother?). This is interesting as its the first time in this particular iteration of the show where mutagen is used in such a manner (Ooze in other iterations appears to have a similar regenerative effect).

- That the mutagen has a regenerative effect at all makes sense as any attempt to mutate a living subject would require extremely rapid healing to prevent horrendous physical trauma during a mutation. As several mutants (if not all of them) apparently retain mutagen within their bodies it may also explain why mutants tend to be tougher and heal faster than normal humans.

* The mutagen is a clearly modified version, created by Donatello. To be safe for its intended use, Donatello must have presumably found a way to prevent its mutagenic effect and retain its regenerative one. This implies that if he can do it in the early farmhouse lab, he can certainly recreate it later (though there is the question of whether - given the events that follow - it would be a good idea.)


The Creep is created as a result of Leo vomiting up the 'medicine' onto the ground. The only organic material present is the plants and soil, which implies the Creep is a Plant based mutant. As mutagen almost always creates humanoid mutations (unless modified via experimentation such as the Parasitica wasp) this would give immediate explanation of the physical appearance of the Creep.

The Creep exhibits several abilities unique to it, primarily an extreme resistance to damage, and the ability to 'drain' mutagen deposits from others. Given the nature of the mutagen that created it, it follows that the Creep would have unusually enhanced regenerative qualities. It is likely as Amaranthus suggested, that some of the mutagen deposits in Leo were vomited out with the Ooze, returning the ability to mutate to the liquid and resulting in the Creep.

This is likely to have been comparatively very small amounts, which may be why the Creep seems to have little ability to communicate and why it appears to be more of an accumulation of plants rather than 1 large plant (such as Snakeweed or Fungus humungous).
In effect, it follows the Ooze only had enough mutagenic quality to fuse the plants in proximity into a basic humanoid shape and cause them to gain humanoid sentience and awareness. The plants would have grown dramatically, but not enough individually to produce a fully developed mutant, nor enough mutagen to fuse them into a consistent form.

The Creeps ability to drain mutagen is oddly depicted. Though Don states its draining the mutagen out of Raph, the result to Raph should have been a reversion to a normal turtle. Instead he becomes something akin to a miniaturized version of the Creep and eventually a normal plant.

This suggests Donnie was mistaken - at least initially. It seems more likely that the Creep injected something into Raph to induce that change. As Raph's plant form resembles the Creep's own, its likely that the Creep injected him with Ooze deposits from within itself, effectively mutating Raph with the Creep's own DNA strands.

Coupled with the evident reverence of Mutagen that the Creep has, and its desperation to gather more, this suggests that the Creep was intending to extract mutagen where it detected it. Possibly as a way of replicating itself.

So Donnie was right - ish. The Creeps unique makeup of multiple plant subjects, its behaviour and unusual mutagen origins suggest it can only extract mutagen from similar mutants to itself. It can however force a mutation of its victims into plant states which, once complete, allow for the mutagen in them to be extracted more easily. This would be why Raph eventually is turned into a plant and not a turtle; his DNA has been fundamentally altered to make him more Creep than Turtle genetically speaking.

The Creep is thereby, a sort of cross between compost heap, mutagenic vampire, Jason Vorhees and the Trolls from Trolls 2 (dont. Just dont watch it. No one deserves to be subject to movies of that calibre.)

[Tarris Vaal]

Muckman's mutation

So new episode, new mutant and plenty of questions of how it could possibly work. Needless to say

- Spoilers -


First off observations:

* He has Telekinetic powers which are shown affecting trash, but arent explicitly stated or implied to be limited to them. It may just be that the trash is just loose debris in that happens to be in the area - though notably living organisms (a rat) are not affected.

* Muckman is physically speaking, a complete mess. He has exposed innards, exposed bone structure and apparently a broken spine and digestive system. Its a wonder he is even alive or walking.

* Joe eyeball - a separate living entity with the ability to think, speak and move. No indication where this entity originated from or how it communicates with no visible mouth.


So explaining this one in universe...

Well, given the basic rules of mutagen based mutation, we require a primary subject, a secondary and potentially tertiary subjects to splice together.

Muckman takes a canister to the face and falls into a bin. In this case, the worker is the obvious primary subject, however its likely that given the bin is far from empty, the number of secondary subjects is potentially huge! It may explain why he is such a genetic mess. He is literally a human spliced with potentially dozens of other source materials. Previous examples have generally indicated that mutagen will use any number of available sources for its 'end result'.

As most of the bins contents would be organic or organic based it is all potentially usable for a mutation (as theorized for Speed Demon, Chimera and Creep.) With so much material to utilize and all of it of equally poor quality, the mutation would borrow elements from all kinds of sources, but this increases the chances of destabilization and genetic mishap with the end result of a seemingly horrific genetic mix (Chimera/Justin).
Evidence of certain elements (such as the fish skeleton on his chest), indicates that although incorporated and fused into his flesh, there wasn't sufficient mutagen to fully integrate all the elements. This may explain why he has a gaping hole in his chest, in that there mutagen had so much to work with it couldn't 'complete' the mutation.
Mutagen does not kill a subject however, so I can only theorize that although the mutation was seemingly incomplete, the existing 'working' elements of the workers physiology were incorporated and allow him to survive. Presumably, there is a semblance of spine, skeletal structure and vascular system remaining in there somewhere - though likely to be extremely jumbled up. Its possible that the sheer abundance of material has also given him several 'redundant' organ systems, that would allow him to take heavy damage whilst still functioning - perhaps explaining how he survived the Kraang traps and why the spinal column is broken yet he still walks.

His ability to become a kind of slop to slide around with is poorly shown in the episode - we never get a clear image. Its implied he can break his body down into a kind of ooze like slop to move through tight spaces. This alludes again to his unique physical state. Its possible that this is a trait of the likely vast amount of bacteria incorporated into his genetic makeup, as well as a reflection of the haphazard nature of the genetic material he's sourced from. His body is literally breaking down into a semi gelatinous state, before reconstituting itself. This suggests that he may be a composite creature with a single mind - rather like a jellyfish. This theory is further supported by the existence of Joe Eyeball.

His telekinetic powers are also an interesting quirk. Fortunately we have one other mutant that exhibits similar powers - April O Neil. We know the Kraang were attempting to clone and repeat the experiments that created her, so its possible that given this particular mutagen canister was in a Kraang lab, that its been modified to encourage those elements in the mutated subject.
There isnt any evidence to say this is exclusively a 'Trash' affecting power either. All scenes in the episode where the power are used happen to be in back alleys, so it makes sense a barely controlled telekinetic storm would pick up and throw around loose debris - in this happenstance, trash.
It's also interesting to note that - like April - his powers appear to occur in states of high emotion, though - unlike April - they do not directly appear to have much effect on living organisms (a rat in this case especially). This may be due to the experimental nature of the mutagen, or that April's emotional state was usually much stronger (her mortal danger rather than muckman's anger)

Finally Joe Eyeball - this creature posits two interesting possibilities. Firstly, its clear the eye is able to locomote independently and has some level of autonomy from Muckman. Its lack of visible mouth suggests a symbiotic/parasitic relationship with Muckman. We've already suggested Muckman is a composite creature (made of several creatures) and Joe supports this, though is clearly a more developed version.
Its possible that Joe is the remains of a rodent caught up in the mutation - rather than a genetic leftover. This would explain its autonomy and ability to think and move independently of Muckman.
The other possibility it indicates is that Muckman is suffering from severe emotional trauma. Although Joe Eyeball is seen during the episode, at no point does he speak to anyone other than Muckman. No one else hears Joe speak, (though they hear Muckman speak to him) and Joe has no interaction with any other character. Joe also introduces himself as a kind of good conscience for Muckman - like a facet personality.
This suggests that Muckman is literally overlaying a personality onto Joe. That Joe isnt speaking at all, and is potentially not even truly autonomous but just another composite part of Muckman that he has 'granted' this personality to. Muckman may be suffering from a fractured psyche and Joe may be his mind's attempt to cope or a symptom of his psychological damage. He is literally hearing Joe speak, when all of it is in his head.

Sad thought :ohwell:

[Tarris Vaal]

So new mutant and new episode!

Well the good news is that Mondo's mutation is very standard and follows all known and established patterns;

Standard mutagen exposure, an obvious primary and secondary gene source, relatively calm at moment of mutation, resulting in a sane mutant humanoid Gecko.

All good :) Mutant list updated (page 2)

The bad news is that Pizza face is in this episode. Albeit only as a cameo. However it does mean that Pizza face is not a figment of Mikey's imagination.

I am tempted to try and avoid trying to explain Pizza face's existence by suggesting Mikey just saw every mutant he could remember in the viewing gallery and actually he really did just imagine it... but that may just be copping out.


So... trying to explain Pizza Face in an 'in universe context'.

God help me.

Pizza Face - explain this one...

Firstly; Observations - Pizza Face has a relatively standard initial mutation from information known. He is exposed to a standard canister and the secondary gene source is obviously a pizza (itself an organic product). So far so good, this neatly correlates with theories on Speed Demon and Muckman (that secondary sources need not be initially alive, just viable samples and that composite mutants sourced from several different sources are possible). It makes sense that Pizza face has several tertiary sources, mostly animal (milk/cheese/meat) but also plant (mushroom/cornflour/tomato)

Again this still conforms to known trends from the Creep, Speed Demon and Muckman.

The difficulty comes from Pizza face's abilities, namely;

Mind Control
Levitation (and possible telekinesis)
Spawning
Cannibalistic tendencies

Spawning - in that the mutant can produce 'offpsring' which exhibit the same traits - is shown to be possible with Fungus Humungous, Cockroach terminator and the Squirrelanoids. Although not really delved into, its also presumably possible with every other mutant, albeit along more traditional means. As pizzas do not spawn normally, it makes sense that the 'spawn' of pizza face are just normal pizzas infected with his own cheese tissue. In effect, they are 'diluted' versions of himself, using limited amounts of inherent mutagen, and using the pizza as a primary source and Pizza face's corrupted human dna as secondary rather than the other way around. This would explain why the spawn are still pizza shaped where Pizza face is a Jabba esque blob with humanoid arms.

Cannibalistic tendencies - Pizza Face's modus operandum was described as to draw humans to his lair to eat them. Most mutants retain their previous personalities post mutation, especially those who are capable of communication. In fact, only Speed Demon retains the ability to speak, yet is clearly not 'sane' in the classic sense. Pizza Face's decision to eat people indicates he has either gone insane and is an exception to the rule, or worse that Antonio's had a lot darker things going on than previously realised before his mutation.

It is not a good sign that a pizza chef decides that a strange glowing liquid in a secured canister that fell into a back alley from the sky would make a good ingredient for human consumption.

Mind Control - It is obviously not a normal instance for a pizza to control someones mind. Nor an ability of any constituent part of a pizza (not unless he was using particularly unusual mushrooms that day when he added the mutagen - that must have really been a weird day for him)

Anyway, the only thing I can think of is that the mind control is linked to an animal's natural inclination to become addicted to salty foods. Salty and sugary foodstuffs can produce hormones that can literally become addictive. Theoretically the mutagen may have greatly amplified this trait in the pizza spawn.
We know that all the pizza zombies in question had to consume the pizza spawn before becoming mind controlled, and that they crave more afterward. That said Mikey does appear immune despite eating some of Pizza Face's..... cheese, yet we are regularly shown that Mikey is capable of eating almost anything without suffering particularly ill effects; including things that should kill him.

As for the 'mozarella cadre' I can only presume that the....cheese used for this process is again a more amplified version and puts the subject into a highly suggestive and effectively drugged state. This may also explain why Splinter was defeated by Mikey if he was in a impaired state of mind.

Levitation/Telekinesis - The pizza spawn are regularly shown levitating throughout the episode. Levitation is itself a form of telekinesis and telekinesis is depicted in other mutants across the series - notably April O Neil and more recently Muckman. It is possible that manifesting this ability in a mutant is a rare side effect and may occur on very rare occasions without the ability needing to be present in other sources. Its possible that the Krathatragon worms are themselves telekinetic as they are seen 'flying' in Dimension X, potentially using it as a means of propulsion in a similar way to a snake in water. Potentially they do not do so in Wormquake because they are in a tunnel and room doesn't allow it.

If this is the case, it means that the spawn are manifesting a rare ability inherent in the mutagen itself. Which implies that potentially any mutant could manifest a telekinetic ability. This may be why Pizza face himself does not have such a power.

It is also possible that Telekinesis is linked to composite mutations - where a multitude of sources are present, making the proportion of Krathatragon DNA inherent in the mutagen larger compared to the proportion of other sources.



I'm literally clutching at straws here and I'm open to suggestions :)