Does this show need more female characters?

[MaximeLoonatic]

Let's face it, girls and woman are fans too

[BubblyShell22]

I voted no because at the end of the day, this show is about the TMNT themselves, and that's all we need really. I don't watch it for the women. I watch it for the Turtles and always have, so there you go. As long as Leo's on the screen, I'm happy.

[TurtleTitan97]

Not really no.

[Allio]

Does a Mahou Shoujo show need more male characters?

[ssjup81]

I chose the third option. I neither agree nor disagree. I guess it just doesn't matter one way or the other for me.

[Amaranthus]

So it's impossible for women to enjoy a show if there's not a lot of women in it?
That's stupid.

[Karai Samurai]

Nope. They don't know what to do with the two they have, already. The show doesn't need a ton of female characters (as a female fan) just better written ones.

[plastroncafe]

Nope. They don't know what to do with the two they have, already. The show doesn't need a ton of female characters (as a female fan) just better written ones.

While I voted a loud resounding YES, or rather as loud and resounding as clicking a radio button can be, I can't help but fully stand 100% behind the above wisdom.

[MaximeLoonatic]

So it's impossible for women to enjoy a show if there's not a lot of women in it?
That's stupid.

That's not what I meant.
What I wanted to say that it would be great to have more female characters from the tmnt universe like Grabielle, Chikara-Shisho, Ananda, Angel, Jhanna, Mitsu... Specially villians as like Koya, Viral, Tempestra, Pimiko...

[plastroncafe]

It's as equally stupid as the notion that boys can't enjoy a show that has female characters in it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I voted the second option, but honestly, my true opinion is they should improve how they use female characters first, and THEN add more.

[BabyTurtles]

Nope. They don't know what to do with the two they have, already. The show doesn't need a ton of female characters (as a female fan) just better written ones.

pretty much.

still....maybe third time is the charm? (if we aren't counting robo irma)

[neatoman]

I'm not sure it "needs" more female characters but it's strange that it only has two important female characters.

[Huzzah]

It needs effectively written female characters. They still have no idea*what to do with April as her powers change weekly, frankly they could write her out of the show for awhile and if wouldn't hurt my feelings. Karai has been handled a bit better, and her more infrequent appearances also help, because they don't have to ALWAYS find a way to force her into the story.

Though honestly they really don't need to introduce many new characters, male or female, until they get a handle on the ones they do have. What's Snakeweed been up to since season 1, for example. I'm not saying they need to have integral parts regularly, but why not an occasional skirmish, even if it's only brief?

[kelligrafie]

If they introduce female characters (be they previously from the franchise or newly invented) and they actually bring SOMETHING DECENT to the series, then that's great.

But sticking a load of half-assed, one dimensional, not-thought-through girls in to fulfil some quota is stupid.

I mean April is getting annoying now. Irma, well, she brought nothing to the series except for a miniscule plot twist that wasn't even that essential.

There's only really Karai that I've fully enjoyed this series.

I'm interested for this female character that Mikey's supposed to be getting a crush on. Not so much for the crush (although it depends how well it's done, I'm thinking more Leorai than Apriltello/Capril) but she seems like she'd be very cool. I'm just judging that off a picture I've seen of her though.

Edit: I mean Renet, couldn't remember her name before. :)

[IndigoErth]

One or two more would be nice. They don't have to be there all the time, just an acquaintance who's around once in a while. (But not a character who's only there for one or two episodes like I kind of assume Renet may be.) Likewise I watch it for the Turtles, and I don't need women in it because I'm a woman, but it would be nice for characters of my gender to be a little more represented. If they want to add one that's closer to my own age, I'd be cool with that though, I'm not sure they otherwise existed much in that city. lol

Or as I've said before, a character who's closer to Splinter's age, simply a friend who stops in to visit with him and the boys now and then, they don't really need to do a whole lot with her. Edit: Seriously, the only adults Splinter really knows are bad guys, he otherwise just deals with teenagers. All. The. Time. The guy could use an adult friend. lol

[Ravenshell]

One or two more would be nice. They don't have to be there all the time, just an acquaintance who's around once in a while. (But not a character who's only there for one or two episodes like I kind of assume Renet may be.) Likewise I watch it for the Turtles, and I don't need women in it because I'm a woman, but it would be nice for characters of my gender to be a little more represented. If they want to add one that's closer to my own age, I'd be cool with that though, I'm not sure they otherwise existed much in that city. lol

Or as I've said before, a character who's closer to Splinter's age, simply a friend who stops in to visit with him and the boys now and then, they don't really need to do a whole lot with her. Edit: Seriously, the only adults Splinter really knows are bad guys, he otherwise just deals with teenagers. All. The. Time. The guy could use an adult friend. lol

Ditto this. I'd like to see more representation. It makes no sense to me that there are no female mutants (not countrng Kraangitized NYC or Mom-thing... no interacting characters at ay rate). And while I like the romance angle, and that they're trying to broaden their demographic with it a bit, it's still a boy's show geared around fighting.

[mexichrist83]

This show totally needs at least one more female character. That's one of the reasons I was really upset to see Irma go. She was a fun character and I wanted to see more of her. I really wanted her to meet the turtles and become part of the team.

[MaximeLoonatic]

This show totally needs at least one more female character. That's one of the reasons I was really upset to see Irma go. She was a fun character and I wanted to see more of her. I really wanted her to meet the turtles and become part of the team.

Worst plot twist ever...
But, I think she would come back as human and encaged by the Kraang or in the middle of the chaotic and mutated city

[Candy Kappa]

Yes we need more female characters. Fully fleshed out, well written characters.

[pennydreadful]

They don't know what to do with the two they have, already.

This in a nutshell.

At this stage, the show's got so many problems that adding diversity is not at the top of the list of things that need to be fixed first.

I think they were doing a good job with Karai, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they then mutated her because they didn't know what else to do with her and didn't know how to write her as part of the team with the Turtles. They have no idea how to write April and she's fast becoming the most irritating thing about the Nick show for me. And personally, I'd rather Renet didn't go into the show at all if they're only putting her in to be a love interest for Mikey.

The way things are running lately, they'd put a new female character in and then she'd disappear after one or two episodes like every other new character they come up with lately. Though it would be nice if there were some more female mutants or some of Shredder's henchmen (other than Karai) were in fact henchwomen.

As it stands at the moment, this show has too many characters already and not enough development.

[Nasubionna]

This in a nutshell.

At this stage, the show's got so many problems that adding diversity is not at the top of the list of things that need to be fixed first.

I think they were doing a good job with Karai, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they then mutated her because they didn't know what else to do with her and didn't know how to write her as part of the team with the Turtles. They have no idea how to write April and she's fast becoming the most irritating thing about the Nick show for me. And personally, I'd rather Renet didn't go into the show at all if they're only putting her in to be a love interest for Mikey.

The way things are running lately, they'd put a new female character in and then she'd disappear after one or two episodes like every other new character they come up with lately. Though it would be nice if there were some more female mutants or some of Shredder's henchmen (other than Karai) were in fact henchwomen.

As it stands at the moment, this show has too many characters already and not enough development.

I have to agree with you here. Much as I would love more women/girl characters (especially mutants/villains, and especially not sexed-up ones!), I would prefer they work more on developing the characters they already have and bringing up the quality of the writing/characterization.

[shredder orokusaki]

There is one more female character coming Renet. No we dont need any more female characters. 3 is enough i believe.

[DarkLightDragon]

There is one more female character coming Renet. No we dont need any more female characters. 3 is enough i believe.

Though whether or not the female characters we already have or will have require better writing is another issue entirely.

[IndigoErth]

There is one more female character coming Renet. No we dont need any more female characters. 3 is enough i believe.
Does anyone really think she'll be permanent though... I'm kind of expecting her to be in a few episodes at most, closer to being a temporary guest star.

Even though Mikey will supposedly have a crush on her that doesn't guarantee that it will really even become a thing like we all kind of assume it will. It could turn out to be more like it was with Kala in the original series, you get the idea he likes her but then she can't stay. If she's around for the long haul I'll be surprised.

[BabyTurtles]

There is one more female character coming Renet. No we dont need any more female characters. 3 is enough i believe.

How are 3 females enough? That's like saying 3 males are enough.

and April is a poorly written character, Karai is barely shown now...and when she is she's barely coherent.

so really girls are getting the short end of the stick here...the way short end.

[Shark_Blade]

Nope, let's focus on the boys.

Does Sailor Moon need more males? No.

[IndigoErth]

Nope, let's focus on the boys.

Does Sailor Moon need more males? No.
I dunno, not to debate the matter but imo that sounds more fitting if it was asked if, say, G.I. Joe needed more women; things that are clearly trying to be for girls or for boys. Where as, even if marketers don't want to recognize it, the Turtles are pretty neutral, which is then where it irks me a tad to compare to something like Sailor Moon.

[Leo656]

I'm just gonna go ahead and say, I don't think TMNT was ever really "Neutral", or at least as far as how the cartoons were presented. I'm pretty sure that the creators behind it have always approached it as a "boys thing" that girls latched onto, and that they're fine with that, but it wasn't the original target. Just like Sailor Moon or MLP are very clearly Girls' Things that boys latched onto.

There's obviously going to be crossover in all things, but I don't buy at all that any of those shows are or were "neutral". If you ask parents or advertisers, TMNT is a boys show.

As such, I can actually buy the argument that there are "enough" girls, even though that's not going to be a popular opinion. It's in no way fair, but again, they're not trying to be fair, they're trying to sell toys to a target audience. It's not a popular point of view but it is a valid one.

[Jester]

If they can add some good characters, I don't care what gender they are. Do we necessarily "need" more females? I dunna. I just want good characters. Period.

[IndigoErth]

I'm pretty sure that the creators behind it have always approached it as a "boys thing" that girls latched onto
Well I did say something about the marketers didn't I. But that's them and their game plan and not always what ends up true in the viewership which is what I was talking about, not the aim of people who probably don't even watch the shows they make these decisions for. (Never watched Sailor Moon, no idea boys/guys were into it. o.O)


Anyhow.

Would be nice to see more come along over time if the show lasts several more seasons, but agree they could first stand to improve what they currently have to work with.

Maybe they're like Disney when so many of their "princess" characters end up looking the same. Need a course in Female Character Diversity 101.

[pennydreadful]

It's in no way fair, but again, they're not trying to be fair, they're trying to sell toys to a target audience. It's not a popular point of view but it is a valid one.

This is what I don't get though - why do shows have to be geared towards a specific gender in order to market them? It's never made sense to me - like how we have men's deodorant and women's deodorant, men's razors and women's razors. Everyone uses deodorant. Nearly everyone uses razors. Everyone watches tv and movies. Who do we specifically have to market it to one or the other in order to sell it?

Why not just make a good show and it'll build up a fanbase who'll watch it and buy the merchandise, regardless of gender. Why do people care whether the kids buying the toys are boys or girls, as long as toys are being sold?

[Leo656]

I didn't make the rules, I just report them. Simplest answer? "It's always been that way and thus it always will." Besides, marketing isn't about people as "people", its about people as sub-groups. Since you can't be all things to all people, it's much easier to decide who you MOST want to be interested in your product, throw most of your efforts in that direction, and go from there. Anyone else who jumps on for the ride is welcome and appreciated, but not the most-wanted.

As for razors and deodorant, I'm guessing it's mostly as simple as "men and women are different, so our products have to appear to be just as different even though they're kind of not." And it works. Most men won't buy/use a women's razor or a woman's deodorant. Even if the only difference is color, even if the feminine version were to cost significantly less, most men will not do it. It's deeply ingrained in our collective identity that it's just something you don't do.

So, yeah, that's why.

[Jester]

Deodorant makes some sense. There are different smells that men and women prefer, but heck if you wanted to rock Old Spice, no one would stop you, you're just an outlyer of their demographic. But razors....*shrugs* Unless there is some difference I don't know about between male and female razors (aside from the region to be shaved) that's a skosh pointless. Although most basic razors are kinda neutral.

[IndigoErth]

feminine version were to cost significantly less
On this planet? Never. :lol: If anything they'll find a reason for it to cost more.

I admit I do sort of wait for the day when my father is out of razors and I get to offer him the use of one that's pink or purple and see if he'll take it. :P Granted as a man he can just freely put it off sans embarrassment until they buy more.

But I'd be proud though if he took the offer. Not sure he would. My brother in law would however, he's an interesting mix of thinks he's a tough guy and gladly embraces girl stuff. LOL


Marketing of shows and junk though, it reminds me of something I'd read not that long ago where games are concerned and how in the early days of video games there really wasn't a target. But at some point that changed... and subsequently changed how society viewed games/gaming.

[miru]

Well, first, we need a fleshing-out and cleaning-up of many of the extant characters, which will probably come with the Retromutagen.

[pennydreadful]

On this planet? Never. :lol: If anything they'll find a reason for it to cost more.

This. I know marketing companies like to make up a bunch of BS about how men and women need different razors because their skin is different, but I can tell you, I've used both and I've never experienced any major difference, or adverse affects. It's a sharp bit of metal on the end of a plastic stick, with a teeny lubricating strip - it don't matter if you're using it on your face, armpits or legs.

Marketing companies are full of sh*t.

[Shark_Blade]

(Never watched Sailor Moon, no idea boys/guys were into it. o.O)
They go full naked mode when transforming so I can understand why some guys watch it. :tlol: And girls in mini skirt and uniform, what's not to like? :D

[Ravenshell]

Nope, let's focus on the boys.

Does Sailor Moon need more males? No.

No, because there was actually a balance of male-to-female characters there, as it's largely a romance series. Love interests everywhere.

Granted, MLP and Turtles are both trying to broaden their demographic so the shows cater to everyone, but the marketing side still skews to the assigned stereotypical gender roles, because girls aren't about whacking stuff with weapons, and guys aren't likely to be into frilly tea parties and so forth. And like Leo said, they're always going to be reinforced like that, unless there's some major shift in thinking in the next 70 years or so... at any rate, it'd be a very slow change in societal thinking.

[Huzzah]

Deodorant makes some sense. There are different smells that men and women prefer, but heck if you wanted to rock Old Spice, no one would stop you, you're just an outlyer of their demographic. But razors....*shrugs* Unless there is some difference I don't know about between male and female razors (aside from the region to be shaved) that's a skosh pointless. Although most basic razors are kinda neutral.

My wife uses Old Spice, mainly because it lasts longer than women's deodorant. It's not like anyone is snuffing armpits, she's just trying to reel in the potential BO more effectively.

Since this topic is about adding diversity, why not add a transgendered character? Not one whose character is sorely defined by that, but someone treated like a normal person. It won't happen on American kid's programming anytime soon, but I figure since we're asking why, I'd join.

[plastroncafe]

oh! Oh! I know the answer to this one:
because marketers believe the male ego is so fragile that anything that isn't directly connected to being male and having maleness makes them run away in droves.

again it's why shows like Green Lantern the animated series, symbiotic Titan, and Young Justice were cancelled. Because too much of a female fan base is believed to keep boys away, because girls are icky and gross.

I can only imagine the trans character falling under that same heading to.

[Keroscene]

If you ask parents or advertisers, TMNT is a boys show.

Not if you'd asked my parents 25 years ago.

About the main question the OP posed: I dunno, I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't think it's a big deal to ask that a show should have a decent amount of female characters in it, regardless of whether it's "for" boys or girls. There's no conflict at all between diversity and quality.

As usual, the people who complain about diversity don't really get it. It's not about saying "girls can't like shows without girls in them." It's about the fact that those girls are watching anyway, so why not give them some decent female characters to watch? And why not put them there for the sake of the boys too, whilst we're at it? Kids of any gender need to learn early on that a woman's place when trouble happens is not hiding behind the sofa or baking the bread at home - that women have as much a part to play in shaping the world as men do. As a kid, I mainly watched action cartoons and anytime a woman was in there, I was praying she would be awesome and not constantly getting kidnapped or defeated. That's what this show is missing - female characters who can be consistent.

The fact we don't have that in most TV shows is why "specialist" stuff like Sailor Moon ends up being created - put real diversity in mainstream shows and there'd be no need for Sailor Moon.

Having said all that.... I am already irritated everytime Casey says a line that should have been given to one of the Turtles and I'm already irritated that the writers felt April and Karai were not interesting enough in their own right without being transformed in some way. I bet they won't feel the need to mutate Casey or give him magical powers to make him interesting. Don't really want the kind of tokenism that Venus represented either.

So I don't quite trust this show with female characters and I'm already thinking that the best characters (i.e. TMNT) are at risk of being squeezed out by humans. But that doesn't stop me thinking that in principle, this show should have been designed with more female characters.

[Metalwolf]

Deodorant makes some sense. There are different smells that men and women prefer, but heck if you wanted to rock Old Spice, no one would stop you, you're just an outlyer of their demographic. But razors....*shrugs* Unless there is some difference I don't know about between male and female razors (aside from the region to be shaved) that's a skosh pointless. Although most basic razors are kinda neutral.Wanted to mention this quickly:

Old Spice originally started out as ladies' deodorant. The producers just decided one day to 'change' their target group, so they started marketing to men.

Just like blue originally started out as a feminine color (for the Virgin Mary) and pink (a derivative of red, the color of blood and war) was male. But it was something where somebody just started doing blue for boys, so I guess it must have 'stuck.'

There is a bunch of stuff that men used to do in olden times that would be considered 'unmanly' in modern times, but was totally masculine when they did it. If I'm remembering correctly, the Babylonians or Mesopotamians used to have their hair styled and perfumed by slaves before they went to war, and likely even their nails lacquered.

Mainly what is considered 'male' and 'female' nowadays is highly arbitrary. What might be highly feminine today might end up later being a heavily manly activity for men to chest thump and brag about over coffee. :lol:




Having said all that.... I am already irritated everytime Casey says a line that should have been given to one of the Turtles and I'm already irritated that the writers felt April and Karai were not interesting enough in their own right without being transformed in some way. I bet they won't feel the need to mutate Casey or give him magical powers to make him interesting. Don't really want the kind of tokenism that Venus represented either.

.Did you also notice that he doesn't have to be something 'special' either to remain human? He's mainly a vigilante and that's pretty much about it, but April has to be part Kraang and Karai has to be mutated into a snake mutant. It's like the ladies can't just be normal humans like Casey.

[Warhorse]

I dunno, not to debate the matter but imo that sounds more fitting if it was asked if, say, G.I. Joe needed more women; things that are clearly trying to be for girls or for boys. Where as, even if marketers don't want to recognize it, the Turtles are pretty neutral, which is then where it irks me a tad to compare to something like Sailor Moon.

This. TMNT have been shown to be marketable to both males and females on an equal basis. The fact the when TMNT does air on Nick, I noticed more girl's toys being advertised than boy toys, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Turtles might actually start tipping that scale at more female fans than male fans. But, the days that TMNT was a strictly or mostly male watched show, was pretty much thrown out the window since the 80's cartoon. Heck, just look at this site, I am pretty sure there was once a poll made to see how the balance is, and I believe it was nearly even that there about as many females as males on the technodrome.

This is what I don't get though - why do shows have to be geared towards a specific gender in order to market them? It's never made sense to me - like how we have men's deodorant and women's deodorant, men's razors and women's razors. Everyone uses deodorant. Nearly everyone uses razors. Everyone watches tv and movies. Who do we specifically have to market it to one or the other in order to sell it?

Why not just make a good show and it'll build up a fanbase who'll watch it and buy the merchandise, regardless of gender. Why do people care whether the kids buying the toys are boys or girls, as long as toys are being sold?

I agree with this. Why gear towards a certain demographic when you really want to reach out to as many as possible to achieve as much captial gain as possible. When something caters to both demographics, or should I dare say, leans towards more females than males, the viewership is exponentionally larger. Just look at the top movies of the past two years, it's the movies that are either equal or leaning towards female perspectives that are the most successful. It would make more sense for marketers of TMNT to follow suite.

But, with answer to the topic at hand. No, I don't think the show needs more females, I just think they need to take the ones they already created and write them better. They were going in the right direction for a brief period with April, Karai and Irma, and then the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3 threw all of that away.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say, I don't think TMNT was ever really "Neutral", or at least as far as how the cartoons were presented. I'm pretty sure that the creators behind it have always approached it as a "boys thing" that girls latched onto, and that they're fine with that, but it wasn't the original target. Just like Sailor Moon or MLP are very clearly Girls' Things that boys latched onto.

There's obviously going to be crossover in all things, but I don't buy at all that any of those shows are or were "neutral". If you ask parents or advertisers, TMNT is a boys show.

As such, I can actually buy the argument that there are "enough" girls, even though that's not going to be a popular opinion. It's in no way fair, but again, they're not trying to be fair, they're trying to sell toys to a target audience. It's not a popular point of view but it is a valid one.

I'm not sure about that. Maybe execs back in the day might have considered a boys show, for about a season, but I believe that when creating the cartoons from the comics, that the creators subconsciously were creating it with female viewers being a strong possibilty in mind. The Turtles were given different colored bandanas, that had bright colors in them, and girls do like bright colors. Heck, one of them had purple, which tends to lean towards a girls choice than a boy's, and then the changing April into a strong willed reporter who was always competing with a male co-worker, or battling it out with her male boss. Then there was Irma, who was always fussing over her weight or looking for the right man, these things, while stereotyped towards females, also tend to deal with things that most boys could care less about. Why bring up such topics to begin with if they weren't trying to cater to both a male and female demographic? Then there were the occasional romance interests, like Kayla and Mona Lisa. Again, I can't believe these rare instances were created with marketing towards boys in mind, but becoming something that both genders would like.

This. I know marketing companies like to make up a bunch of BS about how men and women need different razors because their skin is different, but I can tell you, I've used both and I've never experienced any major difference, or adverse affects. It's a sharp bit of metal on the end of a plastic stick, with a teeny lubricating strip - it don't matter if you're using it on your face, armpits or legs.

Marketing companies are full of sh*t.

Well, if they knew how to market their crap right when it came to razors, then they would know, men shave, and women wax! Or better yet, if they have the money, women would just outright have that hair removed by a lazer.

[Ninturtle]

This is what I don't get though - why do shows have to be geared towards a specific gender in order to market them? It's never made sense to me - like how we have men's deodorant and women's deodorant, men's razors and women's razors. Everyone uses deodorant. Nearly everyone uses razors. Everyone watches tv and movies. Who do we specifically have to market it to one or the other in order to sell it?

Why not just make a good show and it'll build up a fanbase who'll watch it and buy the merchandise, regardless of gender. Why do people care whether the kids buying the toys are boys or girls, as long as toys are being sold?

No one cares who buys the toys, but young boys are the ones who buy them the most. When i'm shopping for figures I alwase see youn boys buying a figure but I never see young girls buying them. Also female figures don't sell as well in a toy line were mostly young boys are the people getting their figures.

[plastroncafe]

I find it hard to believe that boys buy dolls more than girls do.

What you're describing is a positive feedback loop.
Marketers don't include a female demographic in their campaigns, and then use that as the reason for why they don't make money.

"Girls don't buy our dolls, so we don't make dolls for girls."

[Warhorse]

This in a nutshell.

At this stage, the show's got so many problems that adding diversity is not at the top of the list of things that need to be fixed first.

I think they were doing a good job with Karai, but I have a sneaking suspicion that they then mutated her because they didn't know what else to do with her and didn't know how to write her as part of the team with the Turtles. They have no idea how to write April and she's fast becoming the most irritating thing about the Nick show for me. And personally, I'd rather Renet didn't go into the show at all if they're only putting her in to be a love interest for Mikey.

The way things are running lately, they'd put a new female character in and then she'd disappear after one or two episodes like every other new character they come up with lately. Though it would be nice if there were some more female mutants or some of Shredder's henchmen (other than Karai) were in fact henchwomen.

As it stands at the moment, this show has too many characters already and not enough development.

I bet the downspiral of Karai just happens to coincide when Brandon Auman started to take over executive producer role. People like to claim he was head writer since the beginning of season 2, but I highly doubt that. We didn't start seeing his stamp on the show till probably the Wormquake episode. I bet he was the mastermind behind Karai's mutation and Irma turning into a robot.

[NinjaPug]

I bet the downspiral of Karai just happens to coincide when Brandon Auman started to take over executive producer role. People like to claim he was head writer since the beginning of season 2, but I highly doubt that. We didn't start seeing his stamp on the show till probably the Wormquake episode. I bet he was the mastermind behind Karai's mutation and Irma turning into a robot.

You can doubt it all you want but Auman was the Story Editor (head writer) for all of Season 2.

[Ninturtle]

I find it hard to believe that boys buy dolls more than girls do.

What you're describing is a positive feedback loop.
Marketers don't include a female demographic in their campaigns, and then use that as the reason for why they don't make money.

"Girls don't buy our dolls, so we don't make dolls for girls."

TMNT figures aren't just marketed at boys they don't say only males buy these figures they just happen to sell beter to males .

[Warhorse]

My wife uses Old Spice, mainly because it lasts longer than women's deodorant. It's not like anyone is snuffing armpits, she's just trying to reel in the potential BO more effectively.

Since this topic is about adding diversity, why not add a transgendered character? Not one whose character is sorely defined by that, but someone treated like a normal person. It won't happen on American kid's programming anytime soon, but I figure since we're asking why, I'd join.
Or a Black character that is not a villain.

[Ninturtle]

I bet the downspiral of Karai just happens to coincide when Brandon Auman started to take over executive producer role. People like to claim he was head writer since the beginning of season 2, but I highly doubt that. We didn't start seeing his stamp on the show till probably the Wormquake episode. I bet he was the mastermind behind Karai's mutation and Irma turning into a robot.

This is Bull crap he wrote the first episode of season 2. You're just making up conspiracy theorys that are stupid and make no sense. You're basically saying " Oh I don't like this guy how about I blame every thing I dont like on him".

[Warhorse]

Not if you'd asked my parents 25 years ago.

About the main question the OP posed: I dunno, I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't think it's a big deal to ask that a show should have a decent amount of female characters in it, regardless of whether it's "for" boys or girls. There's no conflict at all between diversity and quality.

As usual, the people who complain about diversity don't really get it. It's not about saying "girls can't like shows without girls in them." It's about the fact that those girls are watching anyway, so why not give them some decent female characters to watch? And why not put them there for the sake of the boys too, whilst we're at it? Kids of any gender need to learn early on that a woman's place when trouble happens is not hiding behind the sofa or baking the bread at home - that women have as much a part to play in shaping the world as men do. As a kid, I mainly watched action cartoons and anytime a woman was in there, I was praying she would be awesome and not constantly getting kidnapped or defeated. That's what this show is missing - female characters who can be consistent.

The fact we don't have that in most TV shows is why "specialist" stuff like Sailor Moon ends up being created - put real diversity in mainstream shows and there'd be no need for Sailor Moon.

Having said all that.... I am already irritated everytime Casey says a line that should have been given to one of the Turtles and I'm already irritated that the writers felt April and Karai were not interesting enough in their own right without being transformed in some way. I bet they won't feel the need to mutate Casey or give him magical powers to make him interesting. Don't really want the kind of tokenism that Venus represented either.

So I don't quite trust this show with female characters and I'm already thinking that the best characters (i.e. TMNT) are at risk of being squeezed out by humans. But that doesn't stop me thinking that in principle, this show should have been designed with more female characters.

I agree with this. I don't care what defenders of the show that can do no wrong in their eyes say, but there is a serious problem when the main characters of the show, say, Mikey and Raph, take a backseat to the humans, April and Casey. And I agree with your assumptions about Casey, he is hogging too much screen time and dialogue that should have been saved for one of the TMNT. Because of this, Casey is one of only two characters I really despise on this show. The other is Baxter, only because I just find his storyline completely boring and not interesting.

This is Bull crap he wrote the first episode of season 2. You're just making up conspiracy theorys that are stupid and make no sense. You're basically saying " Oh I don't like this guy how about I blame every thing I dont like on him".

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure the first half of season 2 were already planned out by the season 1 writers before they left. And why so defensive????? Hmmm????:lol:

[Ninturtle]

I agree with this. I don't care what defenders of the show that can do no wrong in their eyes say, but there is a serious problem when the main characters of the show, say, Mikey and Raph, take a backseat to the humans, April and Casey. And I agree with your assumptions about Casey, he is hogging too much screen time and dialogue that should have been saved for one of the TMNT. Because of this, Casey is one of only two characters I really despise on this show. The other is Baxter, only because I just find his storyline completely boring and not interesting.



I doubt that. I'm pretty sure the first half of season 2 were already planned out by the season 1 writers before they left. And why so defensive????? Hmmm????:lol:


How often Do you see a human with out another turtle there's hardly any moments like that.

[Warhorse]

TMNT figures aren't just marketed at boys they don't say only males buy these figures they just happen to sell beter to males .

You got proof to back up that claim? I personally can say, that I can go to a toy store and use that as evidence for anything, because everyone I know who has girls, don't even step inside a toystore anymore, but opt to buy stuff online, and it's not exactly that they actually report what gender is buying what online.

[Ninturtle]

I agree with this. I don't care what defenders of the show that can do no wrong in their eyes say, but there is a serious problem when the main characters of the show, say, Mikey and Raph, take a backseat to the humans, April and Casey. And I agree with your assumptions about Casey, he is hogging too much screen time and dialogue that should have been saved for one of the TMNT. Because of this, Casey is one of only two characters I really despise on this show. The other is Baxter, only because I just find his storyline completely boring and not interesting.



I doubt that. I'm pretty sure the first half of season 2 were already planned out by the season 1 writers before they left. And why so defensive????? Hmmm????:lol:

Do you have any proof? What you're saying is just an unjustified hypothesis

[Warhorse]

How often Do you see a human with out another turtle there's hardly any moments like that.

You mean, besides Donnie? And it's one thing about seeing, I'm talking about plain out dialogue.

[Leo656]

I think some people are also disregarding that, fundamentally, it's an action/violence show. And again, going back to those naughty "marketing" and "demographics" buzzwords, young girls by and large don't respond well to violence. They DO respond greatly to strong characters, humor, the "family" dynamic, etc. etc., but at the root, TMNT is all about good guys fighting bad guys. And I don't make the numbers up, any poll or study will tell you, young girls are for the MOST part adverse to violence and fighting. And I think that's proven to be true for a lot of older girls as well. A lot of girls of all ages like the characters, and they'll WATCH the fighting stuff, it interests them, but not AS much as seeing how Donnie and April are going to resolve their thing, or the personality clash between Leo and Raph, etc. And boys will sit through those parts, but deep down, they're waiting for someone to punch someone.

SO, TMNT has always been a case where, yes, there's plenty in there to appeal to everyone. But the ROOT of it is still "good guys punch bad guys", and that always has and always will be tailored more to boys, because boys just plain like that stuff more than girls do, generally. I mean, how often here do we see guys say, "I don't care about the romance crap, I just want to see the guys throw down?" If you pay attention to who watches the show(s) for what reasons, you can see where things skew off. And, obviously, there's going to be some cross-over. But, in the broadest sense, "Boys watch it for the Fighting, Girls watch it for the Characters." And since you can't even HAVE the show or the entire concept at all without the fighting, you break it down to the basics, and say, "Okay, yes, the TMNT concept is rooted in a more masculine theme." Thus, that's who they are going to market to, predominantly.

You simply can't TRULY be "all things to all people". You can (and should) do your very best to create a product with APPEAL to all different types of people - you should never, ever try to purposely Exclude anyone - but there will always be a base audience you need to cater to FIRST, and everyone else is simply a Welcome Guest.

[Warhorse]

I think some people are also disregarding that, fundamentally, it's an action/violence show. And again, going back to those naughty "marketing" and "demographics" buzzwords, young girls by and large don't respond well to violence. They DO respond greatly to strong characters, humor, the "family" dynamic, etc. etc., but at the root, TMNT is all about good guys fighting bad guys. And I don't make the numbers up, any poll or study will tell you, young girls are for the MOST part adverse to violence and fighting. And I think that's proven to be true for a lot of older girls as well. A lot of girls of all ages like the characters, and they'll WATCH the fighting stuff, it interests them, but not AS much as seeing how Donnie and April are going to resolve their thing, or the personality clash between Leo and Raph, etc. And boys will sit through those parts, but deep down, they're waiting for someone to punch someone.

SO, TMNT has always been a case where, yes, there's plenty in there to appeal to everyone. But the ROOT of it is still "good guys punch bad guys", and that always has and always will be tailored more to boys, because boys just like that stuff more than girls do, generally. I mean, how often here do we see guys say, "I don't care about the romance crap, I just want to see the guys throw down?" If you pay attention to who watches the show(s) for what reasons, you can see where things skew off. And, obviously, there's going to be some cross-over. But, in the broadest sense, "Boys watch it for the Fighting, Girls watch it for the Characters." And since you can't even HAVE the show or the entire concept at all without the fighting, you break it down to the basics, and say, "Okay, yes, the TMNT concept is rooted in a more masculine theme." Thus, that's who they are going to market to, predominantly.

You simply can't TRULY be "all things to all people". You can (and should) do your very best to create a product with APPEAL to all different types of people - you should never, ever try to purposely Exclude anyone - but there will always be a base audience you need to cater to FIRST, and everyone else is simply a Welcome Guest.

Not sure if serious. Top movie of the past two years domestically, aimed mostly at females and viewed mostly by females was far more violent than anything TMNT attempted. You had kids killing kids for crying out loud. Then, lets not get started with all of the fairy tales little girls love, which have tons of violence and bad guy/bad girl getting their ass kicked by good guy/good girl.

I was a kid watching the Rainbow Brite movie, and compare that to the TMNT live action movie, I think the violence is on par. Heck, in the end of RBB, the hero blew up the villain's spaceship, with the villain and her henchman inside.

[plastroncafe]

What cracks me up is that the Hunger Games movies were no where near as violent as the books were, but if they stayed true to the source material the target audience wouldn't have been allowed in to see them.

I think there's a very fine line between what girls choose, and what is chosen for them. Conventional wisdom says that girls don't like violence, and so we praise girls who fit that mold and scold those that don't.

That's the double-edged sword that hurts boys as well as girls. Boys who don't like violence are made fun of...and called girls.

[Ninturtle]

What cracks me up is that the Hunger Games movies were no where near as violent as the books were, but if they stayed true to the source material the target audience wouldn't have been allowed in to see them.

I think there's a very fine line between what girls choose, and what is chosen for them. Conventional wisdom says that girls don't like violence, and so we praise girls who fit that mold and scold those that don't.

That's the double-edged sword that hurts boys as well as girls. Boys who don't like violence are made fun of...and called girls.

I have never heard anyone complain about girls liking violence in movies

[Leo656]

I think there's a very fine line between what girls choose, and what is chosen for them. Conventional wisdom says that girls don't like violence, and so we praise girls who fit that mold and scold those that don't.

I'll agree to that to some degree. I know to this day, my wife, in her thirties, catches hell from her family for liking "boys' things". Literally the only "girly" thing I've ever seen her get into is MLP:FiM and that show is adorable.

That said, I come from a big family that's mostly girls, and even at a super-young age most girls will choose "girly" things over rough or violent ones. It changes as they get older in a lot of cases, but again, in discussing TMNT we're discussing something aimed at a (mostly) specific age group. And at that age group, 8 and under, MOST girls care more about things like MLP, and yes, sometimes they're steered that way but more often than not, based on what I see, they choose it. Same way lots of girls in that age group reject things like wrestling and contact sports and Terminator movies. It's simply not to their taste.

Lots of girls like ALL of those things and tastes do change as they get older sometimes, and yes, sometimes they're steered that way by society or their parents or whoever else. But as usual, I'm speaking in a broad sense as to how it MOSTLY works. And most little girls hate violence and most little boys hate playing tea party. That's just the way it is, man, I don't make it that way.

I have never heard anyone complain about girls liking violence in movies

It's not even a matter of whether they're "supposed to" or not, it's that at a certain age they really generally just don't like it. Some of them grow out of it and some stay sensitive. Sometimes they're "told" to be that way but really, at a certain point, that's Just not What They Want To See. I've got nieces all over the place, I see/hear it all the time. Some of them grow up and they're tomboy as hell, you never know. But most of them legit go through a "violence is icky" phase when they're little and nobody pushes them on it, they just Don't Like It.

[plastroncafe]

I have never heard anyone complain about girls liking violence in movies

Really? Because I have.
Usually within the framework of: our media is making our young ladies into animals!

[Ravenshell]

I think some people are also disregarding that, fundamentally, it's an action/violence show. And again, going back to those naughty "marketing" and "demographics" buzzwords, young girls by and large don't respond well to violence. They DO respond greatly to strong characters, humor, the "family" dynamic, etc. etc., but at the root, TMNT is all about good guys fighting bad guys. And I don't make the numbers up, any poll or study will tell you, young girls are for the MOST part adverse to violence and fighting. And I think that's proven to be true for a lot of older girls as well. A lot of girls of all ages like the characters, and they'll WATCH the fighting stuff, it interests them, but not AS much as seeing how Donnie and April are going to resolve their thing, or the personality clash between Leo and Raph, etc. And boys will sit through those parts, but deep down, they're waiting for someone to punch someone.

SO, TMNT has always been a case where, yes, there's plenty in there to appeal to everyone. But the ROOT of it is still "good guys punch bad guys", and that always has and always will be tailored more to boys, because boys just plain like that stuff more than girls do, generally. I mean, how often here do we see guys say, "I don't care about the romance crap, I just want to see the guys throw down?" If you pay attention to who watches the show(s) for what reasons, you can see where things skew off. And, obviously, there's going to be some cross-over. But, in the broadest sense, "Boys watch it for the Fighting, Girls watch it for the Characters." And since you can't even HAVE the show or the entire concept at all without the fighting, you break it down to the basics, and say, "Okay, yes, the TMNT concept is rooted in a more masculine theme." Thus, that's who they are going to market to, predominantly.

You simply can't TRULY be "all things to all people". You can (and should) do your very best to create a product with APPEAL to all different types of people - you should never, ever try to purposely Exclude anyone - but there will always be a base audience you need to cater to FIRST, and everyone else is simply a Welcome Guest.

This post, man, I love it.

Really? Because I have.
Usually within the framework of: our media is making our young ladies into animals!

Okay, anyone outside of Faux News and NPR?

[Ninturtle]

This post, man, I love it.



Okay, anyone outside of Faux News and NPR?

Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

[IndigoErth]

But, in the broadest sense, "Boys watch it for the Fighting, Girls watch it for the Characters."
Are not woman complicated? Men have been saying this forever, no? lol Sure I love the characters. But that doesn't mean I don't also like the action.

Comparing it to, say, games... There is that stereotype in MMOs that girls play healers. Me? My favorite WoW class that I play 99.9% percent of the time... Rogues. Have one as a main on both factions. The leather wearing, shadowy, stealthy, poison-laced dagger/sword wielding assassin/thief badass. Damn I love all that, the whole vibe to them, with their speed and fight animations. Managing to hold my own alone by the skin of my teeth against something enough levels above me to easily annihilated me...I thrive on that. I've never taken up the healer position, nor the tank. I'd rather be the one doing the damage.

Granted I was never the pink princess sort in the first place. But not really quite a tomboy either.

and everyone else is simply a Welcome Guest.
That's the thing that was on my mind yesterday though, and decided to just leave it alone and not say anything... Instigated by the Sailor Moon comparison.

Looking beyond the creator/marketers decided demographic and just at the reality of the fan base... It's a bit hurtful really to love something equally as much, but have it suggested that something is a "boys club" and make it feel as if only the boys have real membership to it, but oh...well girls are allowed to...visit.

Maybe the same happens within fanbases like Sailor Moon or those Ponies, really don't know since those aren't properties I care about, if it does I'm sure it sucks as well, but that's their own fight and one doesn't excuse another imo...

People in a conference room may decide a target, and a lot of it probably has to do with money and where it's spent. But ignoring that - no one wants to feel like they are only a guest to something they love.


and guys aren't likely to be into frilly tea parties
http://s11.postimg.org/701g466gj/teatime.png
Oh, Leo, you're so progressive... ;):tlol: Being a secure example of comfortably meeting in the middle. (Someone had to post it. lol)

[Shark_Blade]

http://i.imgur.com/3x9Cire.jpg

Even The Rock is secured with his feminine side, what does that say about you? ;)

[Leo656]

Indigo: For sure, "women" are complicated. But like I said, I'm not talking much about "Women", I'm talking about "little girls within the target age group", and most of them aren't, so much. All things being equal, you offer a 6-year-old girl a choice of a Batman poster or a Disney Princess poster, I'll go out on a limb and estimate that at least 7 out of 10 times, they'll pick the latter.

And then, some of those same girls, 5-10 years later, will end up being huge fans of slasher movies and death metal. You never know. I'm just saying, they mostly start out from the same place with similar tastes when they're very young, and the rest comes later on as they mature and "find themselves".

Research firms don't spend billions of dollars a year studying this stuff, doing focus groups and whatnot, and then catering to their findings because these things AREN'T true. They're neither trying to promote Equality OR reinforce Stereotypes. They JUST want to make money by finding out who's getting the most out of their products and then pushing them accordingly. People seriously over-think these things, is all I'm saying, when they're really not that complicated.

[pennydreadful]

Since this topic is about adding diversity, why not add a transgendered character? Not one whose character is sorely defined by that, but someone treated like a normal person. It won't happen on American kid's programming anytime soon, but I figure since we're asking why, I'd join.

Kids of any gender need to learn early on that a woman's place when trouble happens is not hiding behind the sofa or baking the bread at home - that women have as much a part to play in shaping the world as men do.

I like the way you think. You're hired.

Well, if they knew how to market their crap right when it came to razors, then they would know, men shave, and women wax! Or better yet, if they have the money, women would just outright have that hair removed by a lazer.

Waxing is ridonkulously expensive. No way am I dropping $70 - $100 every month on that; I'd rather put it aside for something else (like future tattoos). I'm sticking with razors.

[Warhorse]

I like the way you think. You're hired.



Waxing is ridonkulously expensive. No way am I dropping $70 - $100 every month on that; I'd rather put it aside for something else (like future tattoos). I'm sticking with razors.

What? I spend maybe, 30 max for my treatments. I'd like to try lazer, but I'm a bit iffy on it.

[Huzzah]

What? I spend maybe, 30 max for my treatments. I'd like to try lazer, but I'm a bit iffy on it.

I get my waxing done at the beauty college in town. A lot cheaper plus they love when guys come in there, especially one like quarter Sasquatch. Though they've finally given up on convincing me to do my chest.

[IndigoErth]

especially one like quarter Sasquatch.
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt2012series/images/5/5c/The_Finger_and_Bigfoot%27s_love.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/320?cb=20141129020326

*sneaks away*
http://i.imgur.com/HeI6yYp.gif

[pennydreadful]

What? I spend maybe, 30 max for my treatments. I'd like to try lazer, but I'm a bit iffy on it.

Wow. Is that for full leg and landscaping one's garden? $30 won't even get you a half-leg on both legs 'round here. I dunno, I guess the salons in my area are more exxy! :ohwell:

[Huzzah]

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt2012series/images/5/5c/The_Finger_and_Bigfoot%27s_love.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width/320?cb=20141129020326

*sneaks away*
http://i.imgur.com/HeI6yYp.gif

Fact: The Bigfoot episode was loosely inspired by my great grandparents, and we all thought that those headlines in the old Weekly World News tabloids were made up.

[Keroscene]

I think some people are also disregarding that, fundamentally, it's an action/violence show. And again, going back to those naughty "marketing" and "demographics" buzzwords, young girls by and large don't respond well to violence. They DO respond greatly to strong characters, humor, the "family" dynamic, etc. etc., but at the root, TMNT is all about good guys fighting bad guys. And I don't make the numbers up, any poll or study will tell you, young girls are for the MOST part adverse to violence and fighting. And I think that's proven to be true for a lot of older girls as well. A lot of girls of all ages like the characters, and they'll WATCH the fighting stuff, it interests them, but not AS much as seeing how Donnie and April are going to resolve their thing, or the personality clash between Leo and Raph, etc. And boys will sit through those parts, but deep down, they're waiting for someone to punch someone.

Let's see some of those polls and studies then. Because this does not match my experience or the experience of other female fans I know. The fight scenes have always been my favourite part of TMNT, with the humour coming second and the "family dynamic" etc being way down the list. And when I speak to women of my age, who also got into this stuff in the 80s, they are just as interested in the action element as the guys.

Where we are right now is that the Internet has made it apparent that the line between "stuff for girls" and "stuff for boys" is not as clear as people have previously imagined. And so people try to make sense of it with statements like "the girls are mainly interested in the shipping and the family dynamic." But of course, there's absolutely no proof for this, just anecdotal evidence that doesn't really hold up.

What is more likely is that the Internet is shedding light on the fact that real viewers don't respect the lines that have been laid down by marketers and advertisers. Boys watch Sailor Moon, girls watch Ninja Turtles and honestly to make these wide-ranging statements like "girls are adverse to violence or fighting" is just ridiculous because nobody has ever done a widespread study of what girls respond to when they're watching media that's been traditionally aimed at boys.

What we do know is that girls will watch My Little Pony because they're constantly told that things like this are for them. They're given pink clothes and pink toys and Barbie dolls from the day they're born, they're given the message that action shows aren't for them and this is backed up when we add in female characters to those shows as a mere after-thought rather than making those characters count. Girls are told over and over again that it's not ladylike for them to be boisterous, whereas there's a "boys will be boys" attitude when boys carry out the same behaviour. So the situation where TMNT currently appeals to more boys and MLP currently appeals to more girls is purely a result of socialisation, and that socialisation is rapidly breaking down, a process which is being accelerated by the Internet.

What we should be aiming for is a place when we put a TV show on air for children and we don't have a gender in mind as to who is gonna watch it. We just make it a good show, we make sure the female characters in it are worthwhile, we make sure we haven't got an all-white cast of humans and we do the best to make it worthy of children's intelligence instead of patronising them with any old crap to sell some toys. And that makes good economic sense, because to halve your potential audience before you've even started is madness.

[Warhorse]

Wow. Is that for full leg and landscaping one's garden? $30 won't even get you a half-leg on both legs 'round here. I dunno, I guess the salons in my area are more exxy! :ohwell:

Well, I usually go down to South Beach, Miami Florida to get my waxing done, and it's 27 for a full bikini wax. Throw in an extra 40 bucks, and I can get my hair washed, conditioned, cut and styled as well.