Science of TMNT

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wanted to start up a discussion of the various aspects of turtle-related science and real-life facts about turtles and how they might relate to the TMNT. For example, we already have a thread on mutant turtle anatomy here:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=19496

And a thread on TMNT cross-species mating speculation here:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=50881

And possible effects or workings of the mutagen here:

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=47327

But we don't have much about ACTUAL turtles and their anatomy, genetics, or behavior. So I thought we could discuss all that (particularly the genetics and how it pertains to mutants) in relation to our fave green team.

For starters, I'd like to note that from all the digging I've done in the last few days (research for a fic) I'v found that turtles have a wide-ranging spectrum of genetic diversity, not the least of which includes varied chromosome counts- anywhere from 22 to 60! Since we know that the TMNT are canonically red-eared sliders (Donatello mentions having once been one in Mirage, and both the 90's movie and 2014 one explicitly show sliders, in spite of Sach's blunder of calling them box turtles....) so we'll start with them.

Sliders have a chromosome count of 50 (some have placed it at 52, but that's debatable) which is HIGHER than a human. (Humans have only 46.) This means that during the mutation, the boys would have actually LOST some of their DNA, a fact that makes their change more interesting from a genetic standpoint. What parts did they lose? Which parts that are common to both would have been altered? These are questions that I'd like to discuss, along with thoughts on differences between sliders and other species that might contribute to their being better-suited to the mutation, or how another species might have turned out. Slash, for instance, is supposed to be a box turtle, and he is obviously QUITE different from the boys. Ditto with Tokka, who as a snapper, most likely has a different chromosome count.

There are other things I'd like to get into as well, such as behavior and diet, but we'll start with this. Have fun!


Oh, and a last note- for anyone who feels the urge to bring up/post the so-called "Scientifically Accurate Ninja Turtles" video, PLEASE DON'T. I'm talking about actual science of real turtles based on facts and research here, not cheap, dumb, half-@$$ed jokes based on crap "pseudo-science" and misinformation that doesn't even qualify as accurate, much less real "science".

[Metalwolf]

Sliders have a chromosome count of 50 (some have placed it at 52, but that's debatable) which is HIGHER than a human. (Humans have only 46.) This means that during the mutation, the boys would have actually LOST some of their DNA, a fact that makes their change more interesting from a genetic standpoint. What parts did they lose? Which parts that are common to both would have been altered? These are questions that I'd like to discuss, along with thoughts on differences between sliders and other species that might contribute to their being better-suited to the mutation, or how another species might have turned out. Slash, for instance, is supposed to be a box turtle, and he is obviously QUITE different from the boys. Ditto with Tokka, who as a snapper, most likely has a different chromosome count.

I don't think they will lose any chromosomes. Whatever they start out is what they will keep, I think the mutation just changes the expression of them instead of removing anything. Some species can have different chromosome numbers and still be able to produce viable hybrid offspring, and these offspring will often have an 'in-between' number of chromosomes instead. (Say if one parent's species has 31 and the other has 39, often the offspring will have something like 35.)

As for genetic similarity to people, I think reptiles have about 50-60% percent or something? Whatever gets mutated will mainly be the stuff that people share I think, it will be the genetics that allow neuron density and modifies whatever Turtles use to create sounds, allowing them to create speech. It will never allow them to grow hair, since that is a trait exclusive to mammals, and turtles have no genetic analogy. As such, it mutates them to have human like legs and feet, a densely neuron packed brain (size doesn't matter as much as people think it does, it's all in the density) and the ability to maybe eat a larger variety of foods and gives at least some degree of immunity to cold torpor. Also it gives them teeth or the turtley equivalent of them. Other then that, it doesn't seem to change them much, most of the 'turtle' still heavily remains.

That's my late night ramblings for now, maybe I might be able to say more tomorrow night :P

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Hmm, I was thinking they would either have between the normal number for a turtle (50) and a human (so maybe 48?) or just delete the last four entirely during the mutation process as unneeded. Of course, they could simply be "dormant" as being useless for the new form, but still present without expressing, like turning off a light-switch.

Also, I'd like to bring up something I forgot to mention before. Turtles have NO sex-chromosomes, which is why gender is determined by temperature of the nest. That means that genes that are carried on the sex- chromosomes (such as eye color, for instance) would HAVE to come from the human side, since turtles don't have any equivalent. Most likely, the human-side sex-gene would either replace a pair from the other half, or overwrite genes that would otherwise have been on the X/Y chromosomes. (ie, if turtle eye-color is found elsewhere than the sex-chromosomes, the human ones would probably replace that part.) This might explain why they seem to have human eye colors, rather han the usual ones found in turtles. (I mentioned something about this in the Nick mutagen thread.)

[Mew]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle#/media/File:Turtle1.jpg
Turtle!

[Ravenshell]

Couple of questions (of a slightly sexual nature) I've been hanging on to for a while now, which I haven't been able to find the answers to outside of fanon, despite numerous attempts:

1. How deep(tonally)/long is a churr, and how often do they occur? What I've managed to find usually amounts to a continual squeezing-a-balloon-neck squeak from a smaller turtle to an occasional rumble from a larger tortoise.

2. Do turtles actually have a soft cartilagenous split in their lower plastron, or is this just something created in fanon?

[Candy Kappa]

Couple of questions (of a slightly sexual nature) I've been hanging on to for a while now, which I haven't been able to find the answers to outside of fanon, despite numerous attempts:

1. How deep(tonally)/long is a churr, and how often do they occur? What I've managed to find usually amounts to a continual squeezing-a-balloon-neck squeak from a smaller turtle to an occasional rumble from a larger tortoise.

2. Do turtles actually have a soft cartilagenous split in their lower plastron, or is this just something created in fanon?

I have no idea what you are refering to. Do you mean the "croacking" sounds turtles sometimes make?

cartilagenous split in the lower plastron?

Might have to elaborate, in a family freindly way...

[slashpieturtlemix]

Gah my head hurts with this one lol

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Couple of questions (of a slightly sexual nature) I've been hanging on to for a while now, which I haven't been able to find the answers to outside of fanon, despite numerous attempts:

1. How deep(tonally)/long is a churr, and how often do they occur? What I've managed to find usually amounts to a continual squeezing-a-balloon-neck squeak from a smaller turtle to an occasional rumble from a larger tortoise.

2. Do turtles actually have a soft cartilagenous split in their lower plastron, or is this just something created in fanon?


1: The "churr" is mostly a fanon invention, I think, though the sounds you mentioned are probably what is being referred to. If you want to hear what it sounds like (if you haven't already) there are a few videos on you-tube that show male turtles making them.

2: No, there's no split in the plastron, that's a fanon thing by fans who for whatever reason either think the cloaca is further forward than it is. (It's just inside the base of the tail.) There's no NEED for any split, since the plastron and carapace don't meet up, in order for the tail and legs to emerge or retract.



I have no idea what you are refering to. Do you mean the "croacking" sounds turtles sometimes make?

cartilagenous split in the lower plastron?

Might have to elaborate, on a family freindly way...


I think those were the sounds she meant. As for the split, I think that's just some fan-made invention for fics.

[Candy Kappa]

ah, okay. I'm with ya guys now. Yeah, there are no split in the plastron as Marvel wrote in the plastron, since the clocoa are in the tail hole. Which, if you're curious and got some time on google there are a few artisst that have done "anatomical studies" drawings on how that works on a mutant turtle.

one of the more common reasons turtles croack is when they pull their heads in and air is being released from their lungs. And of course there are other reasons they make croacking and hissing sounds.

[Ravenshell]

1: The "churr" is mostly a fanon invention, I think, though the sounds you mentioned are probably what is being referred to. If you want to hear what it sounds like (if you haven't already) there are a few videos on you-tube that show male turtles making them.

2: No, there's no split in the plastron, that's a fanon thing by fans who for whatever reason either think the cloaca is further forward than it is. (It's just inside the base of the tail.) There's no NEED for any split, since the plastron and carapace don't meet up, in order for the tail and legs to emerge or retract.


Churring is an actual thing turtles do... apparently turtles are notoriously loud when they go at it. Just nothing I've run across linked "turtles making noise" with "churring," so I had no verification.

I can kind of figure where the plastron split idea came from... anthropomorphosizing a turtle more so they can, er, copulate like a normal human.

See, I did some rather extensive research before I started writing, but when I actually started reading fanfics (not a good source of accurate info, for sure), I ran into so much new info, it just left me in total confusion.
Thanks for the clarifications, y'all!

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, the thing with the churring is that it's not generally called that IRL, as far as I know. They DO make the sounds when mating, though I think it's more of a tortoise thing, as many aquatic turtles tend to mate under water. At least RES's usually do, from what I've read.

The best info I've found is on the Wiki general turtle page, the Turtles of the World Index, and a few other sites, as well as Audubon Society guides, and other resource nooks in my own library. (Some of these are a bit dated now, but basic info remains largely the same.) A quick Google of turtle anatomy and reproduction should give plenty of info on the mating aspect and things like phallus shape and size. (Sweet Mother, but those boys would be HUGE!!!)

[Candy Kappa]

Most turtles mate underwater, so starting to make vocal sounds might be a poor planned idea. :lol:

American Box Turtles are terrestrial turtles (not tortoises) and they apparently make not only calling noises for mating, but also noises during mating. Spiny Turtles are a semi-aquatic turtle that seems to mate on land, as the males are triggered into mating behavior by the rain, they seem to be quiet when mating.

Tortoises are more the ones making sounds during mating. one of the Galapagos Tortoise nicknames are the Elephant Tortoise due to the loud noise it makes when mating.

not sure why it would be called churring, crickets churr... Mating tortoises range from bellowing grunt noises to... "anime girl moaning".

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yup. Pretty much this. ^

[Candy Kappa]

I just got the dumbest idea in my head.

Since Spinys that are aquatic, mate on land without being vocal about it. Boxys are terrestrial and mate on land and are vocal about it.

what if the Coahuilan, the one American Box Turtle that are aquatic, mate in water, but the male pops it's head up and makes loud wheezing sounds.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2015/044/9/e/turtle_noise_by_candykappa-d8hsd2d.jpg

[MsMarvelDuckie]

LOL, that's hilarious! Oh, and just thought I'd point out the obvious joke here- you have a turtle-head poking up..... :teek::trazz::tlol::twink::toops:

[Ravenshell]

A quick Google of turtle anatomy and reproduction should give plenty of info on the mating aspect and things like phallus shape and size. (Sweet Mother, but those boys would be HUGE!!!)

THIS I found out on my own! *lol* The turtle penis is a beautiful and terrible thing to witness... Cannot be unseen.

[Candy Kappa]

A better sight is the same willy taking aim and takes a piss at ya... Luckily for me, it was my partner my current male YBS was aiming at and not me. :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I don't think that was piss he was shooting out! From all the anatomy charts I've found, the turtle penis is single-purpose only. Urinary and excretory systems both empty directly into he cloaca. There doesn't appear to be any connection between the penis, and urinary tract at all.

Here are some examples of turtle anatomy- you can see where everything is located and comes out.

http://www.infoturtle.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Internal-anatomy-of-a-turtle.jpg

http://drawnbydawn.com/test/wp-content/gallery/illustration-reptiles/sea-turtle-lateral.jpg

V This one in particular is very clear.

http://www.deftstudios.com/bioweb/images/bimg43sm.jpg

So's this one.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4ronlu&s=5#.VN5Ut_vna1s

[MsMarvelDuckie]

And speaking of anatomy, there's an interesting point I'd like to discuss regarding respiration. Turtles don't breathe like most other animals do- the lack of a diaphragm and the fact that the shell doesn't expand means there must be an alternative to pushing air in and out of the lungs. Because of this, that job is taken by the muscles of the abdominal cavity, which act as a bellows and basically squish everything together and then spring back out to inflate the lungs. Their lungs are also proportionately larger than most animals of a similar size, and take up a huge amount of space inside the shell. Since the abdominal muscles have no purpose for mobility or flexibility, there is more room for other organs and tissues that are more useful.

This leads to some curious questions- would the TMNT also have the larger lung capacity and a similar method of breathing? Also, would that give them the ability to hold their breath for longer than a human? In a bridgeless TMNT, the shell expansion might not be an issue, but for versions with the bridge intact, that means they have the same lack of expansion problem as normal turtles, so they would almost HAVE to have the same respiratory configuration to breathe. Meaning that they have no diaphragm, and thus have the other muscles doing the work of one.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Okay, time for something new! I ran across some comments in the PD movie section yesterday, that sparked my synapses to firing over-time, and have decided to tackle a question that has been apparently cause for much debate. For that reason, I've actually started working on an essay on the subject, and thought I'd share the first part of it here, as it does relate to the subject of TMNT science.

TMNT: "Human", or Not?

There has been a lot of debate on whether the TMNT view themselves as more like humans or simply as large, unique turtles; are they more human, or more turtle? Which one would/do they consider themselves to be more like, or feel more "connected" to? After a great deal of thought, I have determined that the true answer is actually “neither”. Why? For several reasons, all of which I will get into. The essence of this view is this- though “technically” still turtles, the very nature of their mutation has made normal turtles as alien to them as a lemur is to humans. In other words, they no longer understand or behave or think like a turtle, so why should they consider themselves as being on the same level? They are not. The closest thing to their level of development is humans, but they are different enough to understand that they are NOT human, any more than they are turtles in more than name. In effect, this makes them a species of “hominid chelonian”.

The first factor to consider is, of course, intelligence. They are sentient beings, and like it or not, that brings a degree of self-awareness that is lacking in animals, beyond a very rudimentary level. They think, speak, and learn things no animal could grasp (certain apes and cetacians excluded), and are able to communicate and understand abstract concepts like spirituality, morality, and time. These things are important to remember when trying to determine where they stand on issues of turtle/human views. Donatello, of course, stands out as the “poster boy” for their heightened intellect, being universally understood to be a genius. His intelligence is often treated as exceptionally high even by human standards, so it would stand to reason that he, at least, would have long since discarded the notion of them being “animals”. They are animals only in the same sense that humans are still animals (IE, they are turtles in the same sense that humans are apes), but are aware enough of their own nature to realize that they have “evolved” far beyond mere animals. Far more than merely intelligent animals, they have become sentient beings in their own right, a distinct species of “people”.

There is a panel in the Mirage comics that sums this up perfectly. Donatello has found a red-eared slider in the sewers, and is holding the turtle up and talking to it. He identifies the turtle and says that he was one once, too. The interesting thing is his choice of words- “I was a red slider once, too. But that was a very long time ago.” This hints that he no longer sees himself as one, and that’s understandable, considering that he and his brothers are far more advanced than normal turtles. It implies that he has concluded that they are no longer turtles in the strictest sense, and their original species no longer applies. They are now, for lack of a better term, Trachemys scripta erectus. A new species, distinct from any other, and one that is evolved to a bipedal state, making them far more “human” than turtle!

Some arguments have also been made against the idea of the TMNT wearing clothes, claiming that it would be impractical and unnecessary. Yet there are many instances in the various incarnations of them doing just that, though not for reasons of style or modesty, as most would assume. The occasions when they DO wear clothes, are usually for disguise or for warmth in cold weather- or more often both. They wear clothes when venturing out into areas where people might see them, in an attempt to “blend in” and avoid attracting attention to themselves by their appearance. This normally means covering up nearly all of their bodies, including hands, heads, and feet. In most cases, they wear clothes that are also large enough to hide their weapons if needed. Thus, they wear clothes for reasons of practicality in avoiding detection, not for stylistic reasons(PD film aside).

Also, being reptiles, the clothing would help keep heat in during cold weather, so adding that layer of insulation to prevent loss of heat from their bodies would be of value in staving off the sluggishness and lethargy that they would otherwise be subject to. It’s interesting to note that with their human-like diets, they presumably also have a more human-like metabolism, which would be unaccustomed to the fasting of hibernation, and most likely unable to sustain them through such a state. Thus, falling into torpor would be highly dangerous, making clothes an even bigger necessity when they must venture out in the cold. What seems impractical on first glance, would no doubt actually serve a very vital purpose for scavenging and gaining access to needed supplies.

[IndigoErth]

Very nice. :) Could agree with a lot of it.






Thoughts regarding 2014 specifically (spoiled to not distract from your larger discussion):
And these 2014 boys in particular... Heck, if these movies were to say that they hatched in that lab (because I don't think we actually know where they came from this time?) and prior to hatching their embryos were genetically tampered with in early development... I think it could be believed.

Some weeks ago I got to jotting down any human-like factors of this set that I could note. There's all the obvious stuff of course. Like the lips most had an issue with for a while, BUT I think one thing largely overlooked however - the mild philtrum. AKA that intent above your upper lip. Which 2014 lightly have. And to the best of my knowledge from info I've hunted for it seems to be strictly a mammal thing.

You boys have been genetically messed with. Time to have a sequel involving an identity crisis and (once again) finding out who you are.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

That was actually one of the things I was referring to- the 2014 movie turtles' clothes appear to be less practical than in other incarnations, but still indicates a clear leaning toward the "human" side, rather than strictly an "intelligent animal" mentality. Because even the most intelligent animals (like Koko, who is one of the most communicative "animals" alive) still don't have the inclination for being interested in most aspects of human culture or society. IE: she can "talk" about her feelings, and about things she is familiar with, but she would not be inclined to watch the news and discuss politics. That is a big distinction between the TMNT and the closest "real-life" examples, no matter how smart they may be. (And it had been theorized that examples like Koko show that some animals are capable of at least the same level of thought as a young child.)


Here's some more ideas from my "essay" that I added in yesterday, dealing with the subject further.....


In the aforementioned panel, Donatello also mentions taking the turtle he has found up to one of the ponds in Central Park. He is most likely referring to the aptly-named Turtle Pond next to Belvedere Castle in the middle of the park, which does in fact have a sizable population of red-eared sliders living in it. Donnie most likely is aware of this, and thus his choice of where to release the “rescued” turtle is both interesting (showing he knows the city- and the park- very well), and telling, in that it shows he has sympathy for his distant cousin, and recognizes that it is currently in an environment that is very unhealthy for it. Compassion and concern for those not of one’s own species is largely a human trait, aside from a few rare examples of higher-order animals like Koko the gorilla and her pet cats. It demonstrates that Donnie cares for animals as fellow living beings, but while he is speaking to the turtle, he acknowledges that it probably doesn’t understand what he is saying, although it may understand by his tone that he means it no harm. This is important, as it shows that he has consciously considered the vast gulf between himself and his “cousin”.

The one argument that seems to come up the most for them seeing themselves as turtles rather than humans is based on the fact that they were raised in isolation and had no human influence until they were older and met April. I feel this assumption is false. Their primary influence is and always HAS been Splinter, who was either (depending on the version being discussed) either raised by humans, or in some cases WAS human himself! His close association with humans throughout his life either from being one, or from living with them, is the main reason for most of the human behaviors the turtles have acquired. He raised them as his children and trained them as ninjas, which is hardly animalistic behavior. Coupled with their exposure to television and other media (magazines, music, etc), the turtles primary influence would almost certainly be almost EXCLUSIVELY human in scope. In versions where Splinter and Yoshi are the same individual, he certainly would have treated them as human while raising them, and in the OT series, he demonstrates this on many occasions by calling them “my student” or even “my son”. They were reared in a human environment, under human-like conditions of family and behavioral standards. Even the versions where Splinter is Yoshi’s pet, still retain the family aspect, as Splinter likely witnessed his owner interacting with Tang Shen (and now Miwa) in a family setting. With this as a measure for how to act after his mutation, it’s clear that Splinter raised the turtles to see themselves as far more than just mutated animals, but rather as real people. If anything, he most likely raised them with the idea that they were both!

[Luckyday]

I am so all over this! I dream for someone to make an essay on their psychology. It's about time I have someone to talk to about this.


I made a thread that dealt on how mutant animals would act towards one and other but turtle's case is a interesting one. The closest that I can compare it to is Superman's Smallville upbringing. He always felt different even though he thought himself as human until the day he found that he was in fact an alien. Despite this he continue see himself as human although there are moments when he felt caught in both worlds.

Turtles don't really have so much a turtle side to them but it would be more accurate to describe their psych as alien.

Even though we not exactly chimps ourselves but we do have share some ape instincts. More so with chimps then with bonobos.

All apes seem to be social or at least it seem to be norm and no doubt we part of the norm in that regard.

Turtles on the other hand....not so much. It difficult to imagine what a non social animal would look like on a high level like ours.

There is a video here that deals with this sort of thing.
HOaIfyl8V4U

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Glad you're interested in the topic! Actually, I've seen some sources describe red-eared sliders as a "social" species, which sort of makes sense, in that they enjoy basking in groups, and can go back and forth between monogamy and promiscuity when it comes to seeking mates. They are also much more likely to congregate in areas where the food is plentiful than some more sedentary turtle species do. Snappers, for instance, are sedentary hunters, waiting for prey to come to them, while a slider will actively chase its prey. Watching a few captive-bred ones in my local pet shop has also enlightened me to another interesting social behavior- "herding" the prey by several individuals at once. It was not something I'd ever seen or read about before, and it was fascinating to watch two or more teaming up to go after the same goldfish, while trying to cut off its escape routs. That's social, cooperative behavior, but not one that has been mentioned in any research material I'm aware of. But I watched them do this for a good half-hour. (Admittedly without much success. They weren't quite fast enough, or the tank was too deep for an effective corralling, not sure which.) Visiting the pet shop at feeding time can be quite the learning experience!

[Luckyday]

Hmm for pond turtles that are often stuck in one area, they would have to learn get along or more likely establish a social hierarchy for mating purposes.

I think there should be experiment of two turtles with both having the same gender and two spots of heating light that are set with the same temperature of heat. If my guess is correct then they wouldn't bask together and shows that the reason why they bask together is because the spot happened have perfect angle to receive the sun's rays and thus having nothing to do interacting with each other. If not and both turtles end up sharing the same spot despite the fact that there another exact spot free for the other turtle then there is indeed a social aspect that hasn't been acknowledge as of now.

Turtles in general seem to only care to dominate one another. Baby turtles on the other hand, make sounds to each other while they are still in the egg. This is so that when it's time to hatch, they can all hatch at once to increase the odds of making it into the water. I think the mother turtle call out their young.

This is the link that describe turtles' idea of parental care. It's probably nothing new though.
http://www.newsweek.com/turtles-talk-each-other-parents-call-out-offspring-265613

[Candy Kappa]

RES can be social creatures. Basking together, cleaning each other etc. but it's very superficial, as they often are solitary creatures. You very rarely can have two males together, cause they will fight to the death about dominans. RES are very territorial as well, even females will assert their dominans over other females at times, but at least in my experience it's less voielen then when males does it.

My two RES females have been together as far as I know since hatchlings, so they usually go very well together and not just tolerates each other like they do with my YBS female and male.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I've never heard of them fighting to the death except in rare cases, but the ones I'm aware of typically involve land turtles or tortoises tipping each other over where the one that gets tipped can't right itself and dies of exposure or dehydration. Fatal wounds appear to be VERY rare among turtles in general, but even less common in aquatic species because escape is easier, according to all the sources I've found.

Female turtles usually abandon the nest after laying, so I don't know where the idea of them calling to the hatchlings comes from. AFAIK that's more of an alligator thing, where the mother actually guards the nest.

Note I DID say red ears are somewhat unusual in their social behavior, but basking turtles in general tend to be more social than other types. Land turtles and tortoises are much more territorial, which is why those dominance fights occur. The same is especially true of the snappers. Sea turtles aren't especially territorial, but also not very social except during mating season.

[Luckyday]

Female turtles usually abandon the nest after laying, so I don't know where the idea of them calling to the hatchlings comes from. AFAIK that's more of an alligator thing, where the mother actually guards the nest.


Well that that why I put THE LINK in my comment.

In a series of papers over the last few years, the latest of which was published in the journal Herpetologica, Vogt and colleagues have found that adult Giant South American river turtles (Podocnemis expansa) can communicate back and forth with hatchlings, which helps the young migrate to the right location. This is the first proof of post-hatchling parental care in any kind of turtle, and really shows that they are more sophisticated than previously thought, Vogt says.

Since while I am at it. The video that I post explains that test that measure intelligence is egotistical to us on what we think matters.

But the thing is though that their differences can make them able to understand and see things that we are blind to.

Case in point, dolphins would not able to understand written instructions on a IQ test and yet they don't need to but they can understand complex spatial reasoning tasks along with a high sense of self.

What does it mean for turtles? Well that depends if we can think outside the human box.

In the broadest terms, every turtle is a island to their lone selves. They might need to be social but it's less of a priority then with us because seriously even if you gave a human man or woman all food, water, space and mental stimulation, he/she would still go insane because our brains are not built for extreme isolation. With turtles, they'll be fine as hey have something to do to keep them for getting bored.

[Candy Kappa]

I've never heard of them fighting to the death except in rare cases, but the ones I'm aware of typically involve land turtles or tortoises tipping each other over where the one that gets tipped can't right itself and dies of exposure or dehydration. Fatal wounds appear to be VERY rare among turtles in general, but even less common in aquatic species because escape is easier, according to all the sources I've found..

Not in captivity, since y'know... You can't escape the other male turtle in a tank. It's common practice (and common sense) to keep males in separate tanks since male RES and other male turtles can be very aggressive, even with females it's not an guarantee that they will go well together since females can also start "fluttering" for dominans as well.

Hatchlings can go well together, but introducing juvenile males to each other do not prevent aggression when they reach maturity.

Very nice. :) Could agree with a lot of it.






Thoughts regarding 2014 specifically (spoiled to not distract from your larger discussion):
And these 2014 boys in particular... Heck, if these movies were to say that they hatched in that lab (because I don't think we actually know where they came from this time?) and prior to hatching their embryos were genetically tampered with in early development... I think it could be believed.

Some weeks ago I got to jotting down any human-like factors of this set that I could note. There's all the obvious stuff of course. Like the lips most had an issue with for a while, BUT I think one thing largely overlooked however - the mild philtrum. AKA that intent above your upper lip. Which 2014 lightly have. And to the best of my knowledge from info I've hunted for it seems to be strictly a mammal thing.

You boys have been genetically messed with. Time to have a sequel involving an identity crisis and (once again) finding out who you are.

Oh yeah. I have voiced my displeasure about the Philtrum in previous threads. The lips, philtrum and shell... Most of my pet peeves jammed into one design... Lovely.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Actually, there have been studies that show almost any animal kept in complete isolation for long periods will go insane. All creatures need SOME contact with other members of their species. Even if only briefly. More true of mammals perhaps, but birds and even fish have been shown to do this.

[Luckyday]

Actually, there have been studies that show almost any animal kept in complete isolation for long periods will go insane. All creatures need SOME contact with other members of their species. Even if only briefly. More true of mammals perhaps, but birds and even fish have been shown to do this.

But you notice that two turtles even females don't seem get along other then basking and even then it could be case them be attracting to the same spot. The ones that might be capable of interaction are usually the ones that hatch from the same clutch. How is that so?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The ones I've seen have gotten along fairly well, actually. Interesting note here, I've seen both "tame" ones in our local pet shop, and wild ones (my parents' ponds are full of them) and they never seem to bother each other, but get along in a fairly "civil" manner- IE, I've seen them climb on top of each other for better basking spots, or as mentioned before, cooperatively "herd" prey to a more advantageous spot, or simply swimming in groups. Wild ones in ponds probably learn to get along by necessity, given the limited amount of space and resources. This might explain why they are more "social" than most other species, though it's not a "social" structure like that of, say, lions or wolves- it's more of a loose pecking order that occasionally involves cooperation or easy tolerance unless it's mating season. They do seem to develop a "pecking order", but from what I've observed and read, within that hierarchy, they mostly ignore one another or at least tolerate each other unless provoked. It seems basking turtles in general are more tolerant of their neighbors than most other reptiles, which is not surprising, as they apparently share several genes (including for brain size) with birds!

[Candy Kappa]

Turtles, or at least Pond Sliders usually fight underwater, and very rarely bite on land. I've only seen the male bite the female so she'll escape from the basking spot and be more accessible for the make under water. I've only experienced biting when they feel very threatened, like being picked up and soemthing comes too close to their face.

Captive turtles that live together in enclosures often hunt together, but beyond herding the prey, that's as far as the teamwork goes, it is first one to the prey that gets it. Turtles don't share their food, they are quite aggressive when it's feeding time (hence many owners have separate feeding tanks to avoid injuries and filth). Sliders are even opportunistic feeders, so you can't have turtles of extreme size variations together, like juveniles and fully adults, cause not only will the bigger turtles bully and harass the smaller one, it can also try to eat it, or check if "mini-me" is edible and kill the smaller turtle.

It's not that turtles don't function in groups, clearly they do. My females goes very well together, and I've just seen a few instances where the hierarchy was challenged. My male on the other hand is a douche-noozle. What's fascinating is that Sliders are small Sheldon Coopers (from big bag theory) that need structure and a system in their lives. So if you re decorates their tank or re-home them, they'll need a few days to get used to it, acting all sporadic and "out-of-character", even wont eat in some cases.

Some owners have mistaken this behavior for depression or loneliness when they had to separate two or more aggressive turtles, only to reintroduce them and they started to fight again.

[Luckyday]

Never thought that turtles would care about order and structure. The only turtle that I guess would care are the green sea turtles. Leatherback change their nesting spots but green sea turtles always return their birthplace like it's tradition.

Just for fun of the discussion, what sort of culture would mutant turtles have that isn't influence by humans (ninjutsu,buddhism, pizza) and is base on their biology.

Kind like how we humans made up gods or myths to explain menstruation, lust, and evils of men through magic and superstition.

For my turtle people, they believe earth and sea influence genders which is only half true because if you buried eggs closer to the water, most will be born as boys but buried closer to the land will result in the birth of girls. This influence how a turtle behaves in believing that characteristics that are suited in to live on land are deem femininity, and characteristics like having flippers are masculine.

Even though with modern science showing that temperature influence genders, most turtles continue to believe the earth and sea and that heat is only responsible for giving them life.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Since the temperature closer to the water is generally lower (IE, cooling effect), that would explain the gender difference. However, most eggs are laid well above the high tide or high water marks, which makes gender ratios more equal, in most cases. Nests closer to the water are more likely to be washed away or drowned, so are less likely to survive to hatching. This is especially true with sea turtles.

As for mutant turtles, it's hard to say what sort of (non-human-like) society or culture they would adopt. Most likely, it would be based around semi-nomadic hunting or foraging, mythology would probably center around rain and tide or moon cycles, and possibly ritualistic fights or mating "dances", much like some birds. Males might give gifts to females (like bowerbirds do), or perhaps try to out-do each other building the most comfortable and elaborate "nests". Mating could be either monogamous or polygamous, with the most sought after males gaining a "harem" of sorts. I picture them much like a primitive tribe of early humanoids, or perhaps modern apes like chimps, but more influenced by weather or permanent water resources. They might do a lot of fishing and live around large waterways or lakes, or even seaside colonies. Clothing would likely be minimal at best, but war paint or other cosmetic alterations (branding, tattoos, feather or tooth adornments from kills, etc) might be common. Individuals who have proven themselves efficient providers (more elaborate or numerous "trophies") might be more desirable as mates.

[Luckyday]

Since the temperature closer to the water is generally lower (IE, cooling effect), that would explain the gender difference. However, most eggs are laid well above the high tide or high water marks, which makes gender ratios more equal, in most cases. Nests closer to the water are more likely to be washed away or drowned, so are less likely to survive to hatching. This is especially true with sea turtles.

As for mutant turtles, it's hard to say what sort of (non-human-like) society or culture they would adopt. Most likely, it would be based around semi-nomadic hunting or foraging, mythology would probably center around rain and tide or moon cycles, and possibly ritualistic fights or mating "dances", much like some birds. Males might give gifts to females (like bowerbirds do), or perhaps try to out-do each other building the most comfortable and elaborate "nests". Mating could be either monogamous or polygamous, with the most sought after males gaining a "harem" of sorts. I picture them much like a primitive tribe of early humanoids, or perhaps modern apes like chimps, but more influenced by weather or permanent water resources. They might do a lot of fishing and live around large waterways or lakes, or even seaside colonies. Clothing would likely be minimal at best, but war paint or other cosmetic alterations (branding, tattoos, feather or tooth adornments from kills, etc) might be common. Individuals who have proven themselves efficient providers (more elaborate or numerous "trophies") might be more desirable as mates.

I don't think turtle would care to be providers. Maybe lovers but they don't think much of child care. That would something be consider alien in their head; something of a mammal thing perhaps.

These are all motive generally all humans have and having a lack of them would be something that makes them stand as non-human. We can't be afraid of making them nonhuman even if realistic behavior of a turtle is akin to something we abhor as humans.

The desire to avoid death of the individual. (The sole big exception to this is a species with a hive mind, and then, of course, they’re usually presented as faceless enemies)
The desire to “progress.”
The fear of death.
Belief in a supernatural realm of existence beyond the body.
The desire to create art.
The sex drive.
The desire to protect children. (Again, not having this desire, or killing human children, tends to move the species at once into the realm of evil—and, in fact, to give them what’s actually quite a recognizable desire: the immoral love of torture and murder. And yet plenty of animal species do not defend their children, and are neither immoral nor evil).
Division of labor.
Gender roles—or, for that matter, genders at all.

It's hard to be imagine a turtle colony but depending on the species it could range from complete anarchy for our nomadic sea turtle to possible lose feudalism, for our pond turtles.

Perhaps most highly evolve turtles return home for life day or I guess life month.:lol:
Many of other animals think it's all about boning and having sex, but for them it's the time when they can really catch up their fellow man/woman. Turtles are so busy leading their own lives and they can don't have to worry about old age but they are still mortal to everything so their time to go could happen when they least expect it so this "life month" to celebrate life like it's your last day and to maybe bring closure in whatever space it may take in.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I don't think turtle would care to be providers. Maybe lovers but they don't think much of child care. That would something be consider alien in their head; something of a mammal thing perhaps.

These are all motive humans and having a lack of them would be something that makes them stand as non-human. We can't be afraid of making them nonhuman even if realistic behavior of a turtle is akin to something we abhor as humans.

It's hard to be imagine a turtle colony but depending on the species it could range from complete anarchy for our nomadic sea turtle to possible lose feudalism, for our pond turtles.

Perhaps most highly evolve turtles return home for life day or I guess life month.:lol:
Many of other animals think it's all about boning and having sex, but for them it's the time when they can really catch on their fellow man/woman. Turtles are so busy leading their own lives and they can don't have to worry about old age but they are still mortal to everything so their time to go could happen when they least expect it so this "life month" to celebrate life like it's your last day and to maybe bring closure in whatever space it may take in.

Human motivations? Not really, the behaviors I was discussing are found throughout the animal kingdom, particularly among birds, which is why I mentioned bird species there. Also, I was talking about being "providers" in the sense of being potentially healthy and strong mates, or perhaps providing for the female during the mating period, especially since egg-laying can take a heavy toll on the female. Females might gravitate toward males who can give them gifts of food in preparation for their laying time. I could easily see females being attracted to a male that brought food, as it would show that he was capable of hunting successfully, a trait she would wish to pass on to her own offspring. And evolved species tend to care more for their young, simply because it gives their species a greater chance of surviving. It's an instinctive response, like burying the eggs to begin with- they want to give them the best possible chance of surviving.

This is something that animals look for in mates all across the animal kingdom, and as mentioned earlier, turtles share some genes with certain birds, so evolved turtles might share some similar behavior traits. As for colonies, these would probably be loose groups that aid each other in hunting or foraging in order to ensure the survival of the largest number- and might also lead to protection of the young, just as many fish or even some amphibians do, in order to give them an advantage. It's not that different from a lion taking over a pride, and killing all the previous cubs so the females go into heat, after which he fiercely defends his OWN cubs- because they carry HIS genes. A male turtle-mutant would have a vested interest in the survival of his own offspring, especially if a larger number of members in the group would allow for hunting larger or more dangerous prey. This is how many "human" behaviors actually evolved- new behaviors that gave the species an advantage over its competitors were passed down, and became ingrained in the species.

The interesting thing is that many behaviors we think of as "human" really aren't- they can be found elsewhere in MANY different species as well, often those that are highly different from our own in most other ways. There are baboons and even ants that wage war, tool-using parrots and crows, bears who cooperate in hunting (an otherwise solitary species, FTR), and the list goes on. Some animals will designate look-outs when in groups to keep from being attacked, animals will groom one another, and even feed each other at times. Migrations would almost surely lead evolved turtles to travel in groups for safety, and natural hierarchies of leader-types, "warrior" types, and the hunter/foragers would possibly result from this. Just like an ant colony has different "castes". There might even be a great deal of gender-equality, since good hunting/foraging skills are valuable in both genders, so the "protectors" might be of both sexes, unlike in human societies where females are usually considered weaker.

[Luckyday]

Human motivations? Not really, the behaviors I was discussing are found throughout the animal kingdom, particularly among birds, which is why I mentioned bird species there. Also, I was talking about being "providers" in the sense of being potentially healthy and strong mates, or perhaps providing for the female during the mating period, especially since egg-laying can take a heavy toll on the female. Females might gravitate toward males who can give them gifts of food in preparation for their laying time. I could easily see females being attracted to a male that brought food, as it would show that he was capable of hunting successfully, a trait she would wish to pass on to her own offspring. And evolved species tend to care more for their young, simply because it gives their species a greater chance of surviving. It's an instinctive response, like burying the eggs to begin with- they want to give them the best possible chance of surviving.

This is something that animals look for in mates all across the animal kingdom, and as mentioned earlier, turtles share some genes with certain birds, so evolved turtles might share some similar behavior traits. As for colonies, these would probably be loose groups that aid each other in hunting or foraging in order to ensure the survival of the largest number- and might also lead to protection of the young, just as many fish or even some amphibians do, in order to give them an advantage. It's not that different from a lion taking over a pride, and killing all the previous cubs so the females go into heat, after which he fiercely defends his OWN cubs- because they carry HIS genes. A male turtle-mutant would have a vested interest in the survival of his own offspring, especially if a larger number of members in the group would allow for hunting larger or more dangerous prey. This is how many "human" behaviors actually evolved- new behaviors that gave the species an advantage over its competitors were passed down, and became ingrained in the species.

The interesting thing is that many behaviors we think of as "human" really aren't- they can be found elsewhere in MANY different species as well, often those that are highly different from our own in most other ways. There are baboons and even ants that wage war, tool-using parrots and crows, bears who cooperate in hunting (an otherwise solitary species, FTR), and the list goes on. Some animals will designate look-outs when in groups to keep from being attacked, animals will groom one another, and even feed each other at times. Migrations would almost surely lead evolved turtles to travel in groups for safety, and natural hierarchies of leader-types, "warrior" types, and the hunter/foragers would possibly result from this. Just like an ant colony has different "castes". There might even be a great deal of gender-equality, since good hunting/foraging skills are valuable in both genders, so the "protectors" might be of both sexes, unlike in human societies where females are usually considered weaker.

Well I meant a lack of one or two motives.
For example most turtle would have a high desire to progress. This is most common in other species by dominating territories and to sire offspring. Whatever it means to have a higher status to have more mates which lend to have more offspring, or to simply a desire to better themselves in a survival setting. Sometimes that desire to better themselves can sometimes lend to learning a trade or education.

The only lack of motive that seem common in turtles is the lack of desire to protect children, which I assume is parental care.

It not necessary for turtles to invest an interest in their offspring because their biology wasn't build for that. They are among of many species that depend on a r-selected strategy which means having somewhat 200 babies, disperse them often and going with the probability that the sum of those 200 will make it to adult hood.

Invested in small number offspring, the k-seleted strategy, is common among apes and other species that shared this trait. Since we're apes, it likely the reason why we have a invested interest in offspring because our biology was build for that. We have to.

And mutant turtles are among turtles. It's likely that their biology is base on r-selected strategy like most turtles, so they don't need to.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

This is true for normal turtles, but you have to also account for the fact that an 'evolved" mutant type would probably have far fewer offspring to begin with, as their biology would be very different. A bipedal and intelligent body design necessitates longer development for the offspring in the womb, and even egg-layers would probably need a longer gestation, meaning fewer offspring at a time. There are also live-bearing reptiles, (mostly snakes, but the idea is the same) in which the eggs hatch inside the female's body at an earlier stage, or are vestigial (more like an "egg-sac"), leaving the young to be born from the mother. I suspect that would be the case here. With a longer development and fewer offspring, more care would be necessary.

Birds, some amphibians ( there's a frog that keeps its eggs and young on its back), and many fish do this, to varying degrees. There is also evidence that many dinosaurs also cared for their young, so it's not out of the question for other reptiles to develop this strategy as well. Dinos were the prototype for a more evolved reptile form, and while there are differences, obviously, the trait isn't strictly tied to them. It's not hard to project continued evolution of a therapod (IE T-Rex, raptors, etc) form into something akin to a humanoid shape, if it had not been cut short by circumstance. Crocodilians still care for the young, as well, at least for the first few weeks. The biggest issue of a mutant turtle form would be the size of the body and the corresponding size of a developing fetus, either in an egg or in a live-bearing situation. By necessity, a larger brain and the shape of the limbs would require more space, (IE a larger egg or none at all) which would mean fewer offspring produced.

There is also the issue of sexing, which might become more complicated with live-birth, or even longer gestation of the egg inside the body. Gender-determination might also be more important, given a smaller number of offspring. Assuming they are still buried, nests would by definition be quite large even for a few eggs (I imagine they'd be about the size of an emu egg- that's huge!) and thus very noticeable and therefore easily found by predators if left alone. Nesting behavior would almost certainly have to become more like that of crocodilians, where the mother guards the nest until hatching, and perhaps the young for the first few months of growth. Nest sites would probably be located in some "safe haven" area, perhaps in the center of the "clan's" territory (or maybe pride or troupe? I imagine it to be similar to the situation for lions, baboons, or perhaps a wolf pack) where they can be more easily protected from harm.

Of course, all this assumes they are living in a vacuum of other sentient beings (IE- no humans). In an environment where humans are present, the game changes immensely, as they would quickly develop their own versions of human social organizations in imitation, or perhaps even something completely different, but still recognizable, like complete gender integration in all areas, but with a very indifferent attitude toward weak or sickly individuals, such as leaving them to their fates rather than allowing them to drain resources. They would likely have no use for life-prolonging medicine or technology, or for care for "defective" individuals. Very Darwinist mindset, but still interested in social order and development of useful strategies and advancements, or practical endeavors. Bartering or trade might be more logical to them than reliance on currency, and it's also likely that tasks would be given to those most skilled in them, rather than everyone sharing equally.

[Luckyday]

So a highly evolve animal can only become so if they do everything we do? Be highly social with others, and raising young.

It's impossible for there to be a highly evolve animal if doesn't have the same development as us?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, in general, the more highly evolved a species, the more social and protective of young they are. Whales, most apes, elephants, canines, lions, pigs- it's part of the survival strategy to look out for each other, because it increases the chances of being able to reproduce, and the next generation to survive to adulthood. I honestly can't think of any more "intelligent" species where that's NOT the case. Most felines are more solitary, but even certain species of them are social in nature, and domestic cats in particular can be very social in areas with a high population. They will form "colonies" of feral animals, most of which are related to each other in some way- like an extended family group.

animal behavior is a subject I've long been interested in, and there are many books available on the subject. There's a book on feline behavior that discusses the similarities to "human" behavior (which is something of a mislabel, I think- we do NOT have the patent of certain behaviors that we believe we do....) titled "The Nine Emotional Lives of Cats", and it discussed such things as jealousy, friendship, sadness, anger- all in a context of how they are exhibited by cats. You can look on any library shelf and find plenty of books dealing with the subject of social behaviors in animals. Jane Goodall was a pioneer in studying the social lives of apes, but others have begun doing so in many other animals, as well. Whales are another that have gotten a great deal of attention, but some animals one wouldn't even think of have been studies for such behaviors.

Crows and particularly ravens, for instance, will alert each other to food, and are also very capable of problem-solving, showing high intelligence. Parrots do this as well, and in fact, both parrots and ravens can use tools, in a rudimentary form, at least. So do some sea gulls, which are highly social, as well. Social behaviors are simply a survival mechanism used by MANY species to gain an advantage and ensure their traits get passed down. It has nothing to do with being HUMAN, it's a matter of whose genes are more likely to continue- the animal that cooperates with others to acquire more food, which is then shared, or the one that hunts alone and has less success.

[Luckyday]

I had that impression because your examples include like how animals would need a gestation period and having less young.

I understand that those traits that you have talk about are not solely human traits, but those traits are contribute to social animals that you have listed but it doesn't not necessarily contribute to a highly intelligent animal and it may end up with us underestimating other animals like the octopus, and hive insects who don't confirm on what we think contribute to high intelligence.

Reason why I stressing this so much is that it would be fascinating to have a intelligent animal that went in the complete opposite direction and yet still came to what they are, with their own rules, would have a different fundamental way to look at the world that we might not be understand.

A mutant perspective has more to him/her then just being deem a outcast or monster by society's standers and is most certainly a great concept for a science fiction story.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I get that, I'm just using real-world examples to extrapolate the most likely track. Regaerdless of intelligence or social vs solitary tendancies, animals have rules for social interactions that are basically universal, and are primarily in place to minimize conflicts and the injuries that go with them. Human social constructs may be more complex, but that is largely a result of millions of years of social interactions becoming ingrained within the species. A "society" of reptillian mutants coming from a relatively solitary origin species would have to look to the closest examples to determine the best way to survive, and would probably also simply follow logical patterns of thought regarding what would give them the best chance of survival. I think a loose tribal organization based on small family groups makes sense; there might be an "Alpha" leader and his/her mate, and perhaps one or two others with mating rights. All others would probably be siblings or offspring of the breeders. Sort of like a meerkat troupe, perhaps. I like to think outside the strict box of human culture, but still in keeping with what most social groups look like. Actually, the meerkat structure might fit very well!

[Luckyday]

I get that, I'm just using real-world examples to extrapolate the most likely track. Regaerdless of intelligence or social vs solitary tendancies, animals have rules for social interactions that are basically universal, and are primarily in place to minimize conflicts and the injuries that go with them. Human social constructs may be more complex, but that is largely a result of millions of years of social interactions becoming ingrained within the species. A "society" of reptillian mutants coming from a relatively solitary origin species would have to look to the closest examples to determine the best way to survive, and would probably also simply follow logical patterns of thought regarding what would give them the best chance of survival. I think a loose tribal organization based on small family groups makes sense; there might be an "Alpha" leader and his/her mate, and perhaps one or two others with mating rights. All others would probably be siblings or offspring of the breeders. Sort of like a meerkat troupe, perhaps. I like to think outside the strict box of human culture, but still in keeping with what most social groups look like. Actually, the meerkat structure might fit very well!

Well I also agree that a loose tribal organization would make the most sense for a lot of turtle species.

In my mind, the closest thing to a real leader among the turtles wouldn't be the strongest turtle but the one that is the least expendable and hard to replace, which is this medicine man/woman, witch doctor. The reason why this person has the most power even though she/he is technically the weakest because turtles fight among themselves over resources. Turtles would get hurt often and would go to witch doctor to get treated and in return the turtles would provide the witch doctor with food and supplies. Witch doctor tend to see the bigger picture and will and can order turtles to kill turtles that goes to other witch doctors.
Killing witch doctor is consider a great offense and would one of the few rare things that make turtles rally up as a team and ambush the other tribe.

How a turtle become a witch doctor is usually when a turtle survives but is too damage to fight, they become the witch doctor's apprentice. Witch doctor don't live long so a witch doctor knows that it's vital to pass down knowledge. Turtles that never become too damage will never think about pass down knowledge and mostly learn trade among themselves but sometimes from other if they have information at their disposal.

Children are not thought as much among the adults. The children are usual live separately until their original environment can no longer sustain them and for the most part are raise amongst themselves. They mostly stick to their cluster nest siblings, with a safety in numbers mentality and distrust anything that is larger then them. With other animals, they tend see their siblings as competition but with turtle they have instinctually genuine feelings that is compared to how parent loves their offspring and would go out their way to see them survive.

Generally this feeling would sometime often lesser over time but they would still have a quiet understanding of each other.

Most children are not always raise this way or left behind to defend themselves. Turtles that live in cities, especially if it inter mix with other species, they sell off their children as free labor indentured servants. They work free until they reach a certain age.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Hmm, interesting take, although I see their structure working a bit differently. I see them having a "clan mother" type of leader, basically a matriarchy of the largest and most successful breeding female, who presides over (and is the literal mother) of most of the other members with one or two preferred mates of her own choosing, though the dominant male might also keep a harem of lesser females. The rest would be siblings or children of the dominant pair (and other females who are allowed to breed) and children might be raised by the entire tribe (or clan, for a more Japanese/TMNT feel) in a communal nest, with children of the same age grouped together to avoid too much competition between age groups. All members would help teach or care for them until they can join the clan as adults, and probably keep them in a secret place away from outside threats.

Unlike your idea, however, I don't see the most important turtle mutant- I dislike that term; a better one might be kameyokai (Japanese for turtle spirit) or kamenin(turtle man) but I'm leaning toward kameyokai for now- as the "witch doctor". Actually, a more accurate term for that should be shaman or medicine-turtle. This role is one I could see almost any member taking, particularly those who have been severely affected by some permanent injury. Members who are no longer able to hunt/forage for the tribe/clan might be placed under tutelage of the current medicine-turtle, thus ensuring plenty of apprentices in case the current one dies or can no longer serve. Basically, if a kameyokai suffers from a lost or disabled limb, eye(s), or broken/missing scutes or other debilitating injury, and survives it, they could be handed over to the shaman to teach. Also, the shaman would most likely be concerned with lore-keeping (tribal records), speaking to the spirits/ancestors to ask for rain or other favors, and especially using herbs and minerals for medicinal remedies. (As a Wiccan, I'm very familiar with a number of these, and can say that they DO work!) They might treat injuries by packing them with mud or plant fibers, then wrap them with leaves and/or grass stalks, use aloe or other natural herbal antiseptic/antibiotic ointments, and herbs or other substances to treat illnesses. They might also enter the spirit world (or dreamtime, as it's sometimes known) to commune with ancestor spirits or a "Great Turtle". (I think of this as being akin to Morla the Ancient One in Never-ending Story, or perhaps an enormous, ancient, and wise prehistoric turtle like Archelon.)

However, I think this role, while likely deserving honor, would be secondary to the "Clan Mother", who would be essential to the tribe's continued existence. When she becomes too old to reproduce, she might be replaced by the largest/most prolific young female.


Anyway, as fascinating as this subject is, I'd really like to steer the discussion back toward the mutant turtles we all know and love, since there aren't any females to create such a race. And I'm not counting Venus- I prefer to forget she ever existed.... Likewise that bit in Archie when April supposedly was temporarily mutated into a turtle. (Was that ever really a thing?) But I'd much rather deal exclusively with the four brothers as they are the only prototypes we have of such a species, and without any others (save Slash or Tokka) around, we really can't speculate how such a "race" would actually develop.

[Luckyday]

I know but it so rare to get to talk about the possible sociology and hierarchy of intelligent animals. Writers often use werewolves as either their generic brand of intelligent animals or shape-shifters (http://limyaael.livejournal.com/288509.html). It's fun talk about something else for a change.

My structure was meant to reflect sea turtles since they don't have harem or order, as far as know. I felt the structure should look very loosely and a little disorderly. It mostly every sea turtle for himself/herself.

Your structure would be perfect to reflect tortoises and pond turtles.

But back to the topic!

For the four turtles, their position is somewhat similar to Mogul or a kid who raise by wolves in my book. A person would be consider feral, picking up social cues of the another type of animal (such as us) and never getting the chance to learn natural responses of their own kind.

Do you think that there would some reptile ticks that left despite being raise by human turn mutant?

Things like head bobbing when being excited(both good and bad) to see some one.

Tuck into their shell when they feel scared or stress, or I guess tucking into their chin.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

My structure was meant to reflect sea turtles since they don't have harem or order, as far as know. I felt the structure should look very loosely and a little disorderly. It mostly every sea turtle for himself/herself.

Your structure would be perfect to reflect tortoises and pond turtles.

But back to the topic!

For the four turtles, their position is somewhat similar to Mogul or a kid who raise by wolves in my book. A person would be consider feral, picking up social cues of the another type of animal (such as us) and never getting the chance to learn natural responses of their own kind.

Do you think that there would some reptile ticks that left despite being raise by human turn mutant?

Things like head bobbing when being excited(both good and bad) to see some one.

Tuck into their shell when they feel scared or stress, or I guess tucking in their chin.

Oh, definitely! I use some of those reptile traits in my fics, like tucking heads in when nervous, embarrassed, or startled, or neck nipping just as much as kissing. I also think mating season would certainly still be a factor for them, mostly with heightened agression, since there's no females, but also with the frequent "shell-tightening" Mikey mentioned in the new movie. I also thought they would prefer a more "natural" position for "playtime", LOL!!

[Luckyday]

Oh, definitely! I use some of those reptile traits in my fics, like tucking heads in when nervous, embarrassed, or startled, or neck nipping just as much as kissing. I also think mating season would certainly still be a factor for them, mostly with heightened agression, since there's no females, but also with the frequent "shell-tightening" Mikey mentioned in the new movie. I also thought they would prefer a more "natural" position for "playtime", LOL!!

That reminds. Does it ever disturb you that in some fan fics whenever mating season is sorta the "the plot" (sarcastic quotes) of the story. They write them as psychopathic serial rapists? :teek:

At first, I of wrote this trend off as extreme over exaggeration of mating season so that fan girls can play out their twisted rape fantasies. "Psst! They're highly intelligent creatures with a strong moral compass. It's puberty! Not possession of the ****ing rape devil:x"

And then I read this fan fic called "The Talk" (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/3598162/1/The-Talk) by Winnychan.http://i.imgur.com/dWgs2TC.gif

Chapter 19: Safe Sex



"I'm not dancing, I swear. I just didn't want to make any assumptions - I had no idea how experienced anyone was, so I thought I would start w-with the basics and - crap, I probably should have pencilled in some bullet points for you to follow, Master Splinter. Look, I'll summarize. My interpretation of 'safe sex' involves - um, a lot of bondage. None of the cheap stuff they sell in sex shops. All of that is mostly for play. I like to use police-grade handcuffs and heavy duty zip-ties. I believe in safe words, but they aren't always reliable once things have progressed past a certain point. And, ah, I keep tranquilizer darts in reach of the bed."

Mike's eyes widened. "Whoa."

"Not harming your partner," their master deduced gently.

"Yes," Donatello bowed his head. "Precisely."



Chapter 21: Subject Matter Expert


Donatello interrupted him, attempting to get it all out in one big clinical rush. "I never said it doesn't fit! It mostly fits, okay? But not a tiny girl like that. I would be concerned about pushing past her cervix, damaging her uterine walls."

"Wait," Mike croaked, already horrified. "What would that do?"

Don watched his hands become fists. "Just ****ing google it. And if you bloom in her, inside any girl, it will not just hurt her - it will serve its biological function. She will resist and find she is unable to dislodge from you." He was turning purple by the end of this, but plowed on relentlessly. "And she won't be tough inside, like a female turtle. She really be damaged trying to get free."

Mike's brow pinched with worry. He squeezed his brother's arm urgently. "It's okay, Don. Breathe!"

It was wise advice, and Donatello did not ignore it. He was quiet for several long, slow breaths: in, out, in, out. He knew how not to hyperventilate.

Then he said, in a strange voice that made Mike's heart spike and pound with fresh adrenaline, "But there's more."

"Damn it. No! How can there be more? That's already so bad!"

"I know. I'm sorry. But turtles are not gentle lovers. Did you know, in the wild, males often corral a potential mate by slamming into her shell? Right in the face sometimes.
He might try to bite or scratch her neck if she tries to resist - when she tries. Because, for turtles, that's the norm. She's expected to 'play hard to get'." He was trying to do the Doctor Professor thing, reciting all this with hurried detachment. But there was a note of desperation in his voice that seemed to clamor louder with every word. Emotional devastation was rapidly catching up to him. "I'm not saying we'll lose control and behave in these ways specifically. But these are the instincts that will be hammering around in the reptile part of our brain. You could - you could slam her head onto tiles and not realize it. You could wake up to a bloodbath. Especially the closer you are to -t-to being in heat, there are more likely to be - correlations, um." He swallowed miserably. Don's voice became too high, a creak of pain. "I wish - I just, I wish I didn't - like it. When they- when they struggle, that's the part-"

He brought his hands up to his face and began to cry. "Makes me - hate myself," he gasped. "Wh-what kind of monster-?'

They both reached for him, but Mike was faster. He held onto Don for dear life, crushing him fiercely. A moment later, Splinter's thin arms and trailing, silk sleeves encircled them both."Shh..No, my son. Not that word. That is never a word for you."

Mike couldn't get anything more coherent than, "Oh my God, dude. Oh my God..."


http://media.giphy.com/media/HJCGf7JdZl0A/giphy.gif

[MsMarvelDuckie]

OH! You've read it too, I see. Yeah, I take a much less extreme track with it, but still a bit um, overzealous. I also tend to keep the proportions "correct" for certain- extremities. Which basically makes the idea of physical relations with humans pretty much out of the question. I think Donnie even touched on that in that fic you referred to. In any case, most of the ones I've read are more geared toward ramping up hormones, and certain pheromones being emitted. I've only read a couple like what you describe, and those seem far too extreme. The others I've read were mostly lighter "playful" bondage and S&M types stuff, and also mostly T-cest. (Which I occasionally enjoy, if it's well-written, has an interesting story, and not OOC).

Not sure how normal turtles would be affected by yearly cycles, but I'd say the TMNT would be pretty similar to the real thing- though with the side-note that they could probably ignore it if they really needed to. Might give them more reason to go tops-de and knock skulls of the Foot or Dragons, though, LOL! I could also see Splinter purposely stepping up their training during that time in order to lessen the effects, as well as to help put a lid on some of the aggression so they wouldn't kill each other. Imaging being mostly cooped up underground for MONTHS during winter, only to suddenly get "Spring Fever" and be practically snarling at each other for a couple of months once spring hits! Yikes. Cabin fever coupled with higher testosterone levels would make for some tense situations for part of the year, to be sure. Must be why they like to get out so much.

[Luckyday]

OH! You've read it too, I see. Yeah, I take a much less extreme track with it, but still a bit um, overzealous. I also tend to keep the proportions "correct" for certain- extremities. Which basically makes the idea of physical relations with humans pretty much out of the question. I think Donnie even touched on that in that fic you referred to. In any case, most of the ones I've read are more geared toward ramping up hormones, and certain pheromones being emitted. I've only read a couple like what you describe, and those seem far too extreme. The others I've read were mostly lighter "playful" bondage and S&M types stuff, and also mostly T-cest. (Which I occasionally enjoy, if it's well-written, has an interesting story, and not OOC).

Not sure how normal turtles would be affected by yearly cycles, but I'd say the TMNT would be pretty similar to the real thing- though with the side-note that they could probably ignore it if they really needed to. Might give them more reason to go tops-de and knock skulls of the Foot or Dragons, though, LOL! I could also see Splinter purposely stepping up their training during that time in order to lessen the effects, as well as to help put a lid on some of the aggression so they wouldn't kill each other. Imaging being mostly cooped up underground for MONTHS during winter, only to suddenly get "Spring Fever" and be practically snarling at each other for a couple of months once spring hits! Yikes. Cabin fever coupled with higher testosterone levels would make for some tense situations for part of the year, to be sure. Must be why they like to get out so much.

Yeah, I mean it's not like it would make them do some premeditated rape. Spur of the moment...you know. Seriously though anthropomorphic turtles are ruin forever.

you could slam her head onto tiles and not realize it. You could wake up to a bloodbath.

"I wish - I just, I wish I didn't - like it.

I am never going to get that image out my head. Jesus Christ.