Do you think Raph is getting enough character/central focus?

[Papenbrook]

Since the official thread is getting clogged up, I thought I should make a new thread to discuss all the problems regarding Raph's treatment within the show. Please, discuss below.

[Aaronardo]

He seemed to have a lot of good moments in the first season, but after that (maybe even after the first half of the first season), he's been thrown to the side, almost as a background character. Now, he's more the butt of every Mikey joke than anything. I'd appreciate a character arc on him, and even though we're getting a Dark Raph plot, that's too little too late for the Raph fans.

[Vicky82]

I didn't think Raph got that much focus in season 1 but does have more focus in season 2.

If I hadn't known about the Dark Raph Story was happening, then I would have said he hasn't had any focus in season 3 but hearing about it and that the mind control story is the 2nd half of season 3 main arc then I expect he will get a lot more focus.

[Sabacooza]

I voted no. He most definitely is not and as a Raph fan it's frustrating.

[IndigoErth]

I wouldn't necessarily say he's being mistreated, per se, and he's had decent small moments here and there, but for the most part for a while he's just kinda been... there. Present and still important at times as the muscle, but not a whole lot of interest happening. He does need some kind of ongoing storyline that centers on him and continues to be visited, much the way that Karai's story continues over time; the Donnie/April/Casey thing, etc. And more-so than just a focus on needing to learn to control his anger... because that's just simply who he is and that probably won't actually get anywhere. He wouldn't be the same grumpy little bugger Raph fans and TMNT fans in general know and love if he wasn't.

The loss of Casey as largely his friend has really kind of left him treading water in this series. They need to tap into more of what they'd started with when Raph and Casey first met.

And it's too bad Spike/Slash moved on so fast to his own thing largely disconnected from Raph... they could have done something with that, esp in a way that Slash could have continued to regard Raph as someone important, given that he had probably been like a pet-parent over Spike for years.

[GoldMutant]

Apologies for a long post, but I have a bit to say on this. I'm happy there's a thread for this now. Anyways, I'd yes and no for Raphael for several reasons:

Yes (agreement):
Interacting with other characters- Raph has gotten a bit of this with Spider Bytes, Fishface, and especially Slash when it came to opposing sides as well as Mikey and his signature friendship with Casey and feud with Leo. Slash and Destroy still remains a favorite episode of mine from season 2 and the show so far because of Raph developing more of accepting where's he usually gets angry at the antics of his family. The brotherly love between him and Michelangelo is still there along with the feud with Leo. Interactions seem okay for the most part, but need better development with certain elements like Donatello besides teasing and the budding friendship with Casey hasn't occurred too much yet.

Moments- Besides the sarcastic remarks made ("Is this a rescue or a romantic comedy?"), the cool, but rude member of the team has had a few memorable moments seen in the show. It could be that hug from Mikey in The Invasion or coming to terms with his anger in both Turtle Temper and The Good, The Bad, and Casey Jones. These moments might be limited for Raph when compared to other characters, but they are notable in their own right. Anyways, let's take a look at the negatives:

No (disagreement):
Little focus against enemies- Outside having the fewest character centered episodes Turtle wise, Raph really has no enemies to fight. Leo had Karai, have Shredder, Mikey has Rahzar, Casey now has Hun, and Donnie has a bit with the Kraang and a small extent Baxter. The enemies Raph has haven't been built on or have lost steam:

Slash: The two have made peace a little too early in my opinion and it could have been a very personal feud. It reminds me of the game Blaster Master, where Jason had to fight his mutated frog Fred. Either way, the interactions between these two are one of my personal favorites of this series, but the conflict could have been developed more.

Spider Bytes: Minor antagonist with only two appearances who only severed as a character episode for Raph.

Spy-Roach: A filler villain which showcases the phobia Raph has of insects.

Fishface: Since it can be seen the Turtles have gotten stronger over the seasons so far, Xever isn't a challenge. Considering what happened in Baxter's Gambit with Xever explaining his past, there could have been an opportunity to build off that to make these guys rivals, possibly in a "friendly" sort of way. (They'd still despise each other, but have a little respect for one another)

Episode-wise- When it comes to legitimate episodes, this is where I disagree. Raphael only has a small handful of actual episode development. The ones where he's a main focus are as followed (I also added in a few that might not qualify entirely, but deserve mention):

Season 1:
Turtle Temper- As the first of the five character development episodes leading to The Gauntlet, it demonstrated a signature of the character no matter the version: his anger. Solid episode to begin Raph's development as a character.

New Girl in Town- The episode which builds off the brotherly feud of the older brothers. While Leo struggles with Karai, the secondary plot has Raph leading Mikey and Donnie to stopping Snakeweed after questioning Leo's authority at the beginning. It comes to terms by Raph that being leader isn't all he thought it was, another sign of growth.

Cockroach Terminator- A filler episode for Raph's phobia of insects, nothing too big for the character. (it did give some funny moments of this season though between him and Mikey :lol:)

Baxter's Gambit (to a small extent)- This I'm on the fence about, but still label it a Raph episode to a small extent. I'd label it as it has Raph forcing to work with Fishface while the other brothers got Bradford.

Season 2:
Slash and Destroy- Just going to say this is possibly the best episode with Raph as the main character. It builds off Spike turning into Slash and obeying Raph's words like a "good" pet. It comes to terms with Raph caring for his family while also battling the pet he cared for overtime. Pretty dark episode for season 2's beginning and introduces Slash strongly while building off everything Raph has done to this point.

The Good, the Bad, and Casey Jones- Back to back strong episodes for the hothead with him coming to terms with his anger again.:roll: It does introduce the bond that Raphael gets with Casey,showing it as a friendly battle between the two before establishing them as a powerful team when they battle the Foot-Bots.

Newtralized!- Builds off the plotline with Slash and the relationship with Casey and Raph. It still felt like a disappointment to me as an episode as I expected a little too much, but it once more contributes to Raph's interactions with others.

Plan 10- The swapping of the brains allows Raph to see what is happening with the Kraang. Though Raphael is in the spotlight, it is more of a buildup episode for The Invasion and gives Nolan North a return as Raph since the 2007 film. Fun little episode overall.

Season 3:
Vision Quest- Since this is the last episode before going back to New York, it made sense all four were going to get some focus as a team. If you could tell though, the farm episodes didn't have a Raph-centered episode at all while everyone else did. Though a good episode that gives some awesome fighting and showing Raph's anger again, it could have been built on more. Either way, all the Turtles got equal screen time for this particular episode.

Casey Jones VS. The Underworld- Although Casey was the center focus here, it does add more to the friendship that Raph and Casey.

In total, of the 66 episodes shown so far, Raph has gotten a total of 7 episodes relating him as a major focus, 8 storyline wise when Vision Quest is counted, and 10 overall with Cockroach Terminator and the small extent of Baxter's Gambit. This is where the hothead has been downplayed to develop the other characters. While Donnie and Leo have developed well and Mikey getting most of the filler episodes, it leaves Raph out compared to his brothers. It would make sense as Raph has been a central focus in certain eras of the franchise such as the 1990 movie, TMNT, and TMNT 2014. Heck, he's been a focus since the beginning with the cartoons and comics as well the more you look at them. Remember, because he's also Kevin Eastman's favorite Turtle (I might be wrong here), he's normally going to get a lot of spotlight.

Overall, I think while Raph has gotten a good amount of screen time, but I feel he should have a few more episodes (at least 3) to develop his character more. So far, it seems Ciro wants to develop the brothers into the heroes we know and love: Leo as a strong leader, Donnie as a pacifist, and maturing Mikey. Wherever the road is taken, I'm looking forward to it for my personal favorite Turtle, especially the mind-controlled episode. (assuming the plot expands until near the end of the season)

[yellowmario27]

I think while he doesn't have the most focus, his episodes that are focused on him are very good and are some of the best episodes...a lot better than the other characters

[Warhorse]

He seemed to have a lot of good moments in the first season, but after that (maybe even after the first half of the first season), he's been thrown to the side, almost as a background character. Now, he's more the butt of every Mikey joke than anything. I'd appreciate a character arc on him, and even though we're getting a Dark Raph plot, that's too little too late for the Raph fans.

This. In season one and the first half of season 2, he had enough focus and screen time and importance for me to be satisfied, but after the WormQuake episode, I just felt as a character, he has become reductive of his formal self.



In total, of the 66 episodes shown so far, Raph has gotten a total of 7 episodes relating him as a major focus, 8 storyline wise when Vision Quest is counted, and 10 overall with Cockroach Terminator and the small extent of Baxter's Gambit. This is where the hothead has been downplayed to develop the other characters. While Donnie and Leo have developed well and Mikey getting most of the filler episodes, it leaves Raph out compared to his brothers. It would make sense as Raph has been a central focus in certain eras of the franchise such as the 1990 movie, TMNT, and TMNT 2014. Heck, he's been a focus since the beginning with the cartoons and comics as well the more you look at them. Remember, because he's also Kevin Eastman's favorite Turtle (I might be wrong here), he's normally going to get a lot of spotlight.

Sadly, you are wrong. Eastman said his favorite was Mikey. And I've said it before, but I will say it again, except for the 1990 and 2007 movie (which he more or less shared focus with Leo), he was not the cenrtal focus of any of the other cartoons. Fred Wolf, Mikey was the big focus, with Donnie runner up. 2k3 toon, it was easily Leonardo as the most focused, with Mikey a close second. Donnie was easily the third, and I think Raph had maybe 5 arcs in all, and either way, he was always upstaged by Leo. The comics were heavy with Leo and Donnie, at least the Mirage. Don't know much about the other versions.

Overall, I think while Raph has gotten a good amount of screen time, but I feel he should have a few more episodes (at least 3) to develop his character more. So far, it seems Ciro wants to develop the brothers into the heroes we know and love: Leo as a strong leader, Donnie as a pacifist, and maturing Mikey. Wherever the road is taken, I'm looking forward to it for my personal favorite Turtle, especially the mind-controlled episode. (assuming the plot expands until near the end of the season)

I would also like it if Ciro and co would just finally drop his anger/temper for good and concentrate on the positives of Raph, which would be his protective instinct, his street smarts and able to read people, how he is the muscle of the group and show that he is also talented with engines and other mechanical things. Maybe they could make up things where the Turtles take on jobs to help out. Kind of like they did in the 2007 movie. Mikey could have the parties, Donnie with his tech support, Raph and Casey maybe could fix up cars and start their own mechanic business, Leo and April start their own ninjitsu training center.......

[Meliwen]

A main character needs a good balance of not just screentime, but importance to the plot and personal growth in some way. At this point in the show, Leo, Donnie and April have been getting character arcs and personal conflicts that last beyond one episode that contribute to the central story since the beginning (which is great), but they easily overshadow Raph and Mikey in that regard. Whenever Raph and Mikey get some character focus, it stops after one episode, peters out or doesn't amount to anything.

My frustrations with Raph and Mikey's handling compared to the other turtles is like my frustration with all the turtles compared to Leo in the 2k3 cartoon. This show is doing much better in terms of good, quality focus and balance, but it could do better. Which is why I'm glad Raph is getting this Dark Raph arc soon, and that I'm hoping Mikey gets something substantial as well.

[Warhorse]

My frustrations with Raph and Mikey's handling compared to the other turtles is like my frustration with all the turtles compared to Leo in the 2k3 cartoon. This show is doing much better in terms of good, quality focus and balance, but it could do better. Which is why I'm glad Raph is getting this Dark Raph arc soon, and that I'm hoping Mikey gets something substantial as well.

I hope the Dark Raph showcases just how important he is to the team, and that they are glad that he is on their side and not the other way around. But part of me feels it's going to be another episode that just showboats how great Leo is compared to everyone else. Heck, back on the farm they had April beating Raph in training.

[GoldMutant]

Sadly, you are wrong. Eastman said his favorite was Mikey. And I've said it before, but I will say it again, except for the 1990 and 2007 movie (which he more or less shared focus with Leo), he was not the cenrtal focus of any of the other cartoons. Fred Wolf, Mikey was the big focus, with Donnie runner up. 2k3 toon, it was easily Leonardo as the most focused, with Mikey a close second. Donnie was easily the third, and I think Raph had maybe 5 arcs in all, and either way, he was always upstaged by Leo. The comics were heavy with Leo and Donnie, at least the Mirage. Don't know much about the other versions.

I would also like it if Ciro and co would just finally drop his anger/temper for good and concentrate on the positives of Raph, which would be his protective instinct, his street smarts and able to read people, how he is the muscle of the group and show that he is also talented with engines and other mechanical things. Maybe they could make up things where the Turtles take on jobs to help out. Kind of like they did in the 2007 movie. Mikey could have the parties, Donnie with his tech support, Raph and Casey maybe could fix up cars and start their own mechanic business, Leo and April start their own ninjitsu training center.......

Must have read something wrong with a quick glance, so mistake on my part. As for the 1987 cartoon, I meant more for character being liked with Mikey being the clear popular figure and focus while Donnie saves the day for plot. I can assume if people didn't like Mikey or to an extent Donatello, Raph was usually the most popular figure. As for 2003, Leo is the main focus no doubt as well as in the comics (I haven't read the comics too much, so I can't defend that). Guess I was just on a roll on writing and should have thought better with that statement, apologies on my part for that.

As for other qualities, I agree massively, but I'd keep Raph's anger and emotions, but limit them more. Focus more on other qualities like you mentioned Warhorse, such as his wit or assistance. Raph has potential as a character that isn't entirely explored with abilities nor characteristics; the producers should do that.

[Jephael]

I think Raphael gets his fair share in the spotlight. I just wish they'd give him a better catchphrase than "Eat it!!!" It's just another lame attempt at trying to sanitize a popular expression that's ordinarily too vulgar for young ears.

[Eiko]

I'm kind of glad Raph is not hogging the spotlight this time round. He has had enough attention over the years. if any turtle that needs focus it should be Mikey.

[Warhorse]

I'm kind of glad Raph is not hogging the spotlight this time round. He has had enough attention over the years. if any turtle that needs focus it should be Mikey.

Mikey was the focus for the 80's toon and right behind Leo in 2k3. Raph was only the spotlight in the 90, 2007 and 2014 film. SOTO was Donnie and the third movie was Mikey. So please, tell me about all of this "spotlight for Raph" again, I'm all ears!

Must have read something wrong with a quick glance, so mistake on my part. As for the 1987 cartoon, I meant more for character being liked with Mikey being the clear popular figure and focus while Donnie saves the day for plot. I can assume if people didn't like Mikey or to an extent Donatello, Raph was usually the most popular figure. As for 2003, Leo is the main focus no doubt as well as in the comics (I haven't read the comics too much, so I can't defend that). Guess I was just on a roll on writing and should have thought better with that statement, apologies on my part for that.

I always read that either Mikey or Raph were the most popular with the fandom, but what is popular and what is actually being depicted in the toons, movies and comics are totally different thing. Like you said, Mikey was the most focused in the old toon, but Donnie was often the one that saved the day the most. I will admit, I think Raph was the third most focused while Leo would have been the least. The movies, the 1990 movie might have given the biggest arc to Raph, but he was actually knocked out for a good while, and in the end, Leonardo, Splinter and Casey are the ones that dealt the final blows to the Shredder. SOTO, was mostly Donnie with the whole scientist thing, the third was mostly on Mikey, the 2007 I believe was a combination of Raph and Leo (the sequel to it looked like it was going to be Mikey based, but that never saw the light of day) and I seriously don't take anything from the 2014 movie in any consideration. It means nothing to me. And anyways, Raphael still hardly shined in any of these movies, it was still mostly Leonardo taking on the big bads. The 2k3 show was a whole different ballgame. Lots of Leo, then Mikey, Donnie and then Raph. And again, he really never does anything important, he's like a footsoldier to Leo and Donnie most of the time. Shiat, at least Mikey has the Battle Nexus Championship, what does Raph have to his credit? Whooping Karai's ass when Leo accidentally fell on her sword, only then to get picked up by Shredder and have his chord broken?

As for other qualities, I agree massively, but I'd keep Raph's anger and emotions, but limit them more. Focus more on other qualities like you mentioned Warhorse, such as his wit or assistance. Raph has potential as a character that isn't entirely explored with abilities nor characteristics; the producers should do that.

Yeah, this has always been frustrating for me. Just a simple snippet of him working on a motorbike he found in the junkyard would be enough for me.

[Cure]

Yeah, I'm OK with him taking a backseat.

[Tarris Vaal]

I think he's fallen into the 'straight man' of the group archetype. He's the sensible one there to slap sense into everyone else rather than Leo as would normally have been the case. As a result he's the go to character to stop everyone else going off the rails, but by consequence he rarely seems to go off and do his own thing - thereby seeming to lose out.

Overall I dont think he's suffered any worse than anyone else in terms of development (certainly not compared to Mikey who is almost a one trick pony), but he hasnt been the centre of focus much the past season or so. At least he has consistently been part of everyone else's focused episodes.
But for me I guess the reason he seems to have lost out most is primarily down to Leo's relationship with Karai and Casey Jones' arrival.

In Leo/Karai's case, their relationship has to have had significant screen time because of Karai's revelation about her father towards end of Season 2. It just makes sense to make this a focus when the story is pushing that revelation.
At least in this case Raph has been the one to object first and loudest about her - so he hasnt lost out completely, but it has eaten into screen time.

In Casey's case, the show has had to find time to introduce him as a new character, and has chosen to focus on Casey's pursuit of April (and subsequent rivalry with Don). In this case, again Raph did at least get to try and talk sense into all sides involved, but that choice to focus on Casey and April meant that he has spent more time with Don than with Raph. That in particular has hurt Raph's potential for character focus in the show.

I also agree that Slash reconciling so quickly with Raph was a major missed opportunity to give Raph some more screen time (and Slash for that matter). That relationship/rivalry could happily have made up for Casey not being as 'Raph focused' a character as he normally is.

I dunno, overall I dont think Raph is missing out, but he isn't in the same role as he normally is in other iterations. Normally it'd be him doing something and the others trying to help out/stop him. This time its the other way round. I think thats why it seems he isnt getting so much attention.

[pennydreadful]

I feel that Raph is getting short-changed. However, I will say that giving Donnie the spotlight in the show has given me a real appreciation for the character which I didn't have as much before. So while it's frustrating on the one hand, I'm still getting to see different facets of Donnie in this incarnation which have actually made him my fave version of Donnie ever.

In conclusion: not perfect, but there's a silver lining in there somewhere.

Fingers crossed - maybe the Dark Raph arc will blow us out of the water. If it's only for one episode, I'm gonna be pissed though.

[Sabacooza]

Part of me feels it's going to be another episode that just showboats how great Leo is compared to everyone else. Heck, back on the farm they had April beating Raph in training.Yep, I can bet this is how it will go down. Raph will be nothing more than a means for Leo to develop as a character even further. Raph will be an unimportant character in his own story arc. Donnie will also save the day yet again for coming up with a way to undo the mind control. lather, rinse, repeat.

One thing I fear, and I brought this up several times is that he'll become a villain and then be absent for a couple episodes like they completely forgot about him or something in order to show a lousy filler episode adding insult to injury. That might not be the case but I have a gut feeling this will happen if they drag it out until the end of the season.

I don't know. I'm losing interest in this show really fast. It's sad because I really want to love it. I mean, I just don't know why these writers and Ciro can't spread the character development and screen time evenly between all four instead of catering to their favorites. It's totally unprofessional. If you want to have character specific episodes, that's fine but then do it for all of them. I'm not asking for Raph to steal the spotlight for every episode but good God this is getting ridiculous.

I also noticed like others have said that Raph is the butt of all of Mikey's jokes. His relationship with Slash has fallen off the face of the earth and they took Casey away as Raph's buddy. He's a damsel in distress. He's not strong. He's just sort of there. What does this character really have going for him? I just don't get why he's even part of the show at this point.:x

Maybe my points are way more brutal than they need to be but dammit, this really bugs me. When I'm passionate about something, I go off like a bomb.

[Shark_Blade]

I'm a Raph fan and I think he does have a lot of focus. They're handling him just fine.

[aliena]

I don't think Raph is getting enough screen time. I really love this Raph and want to see more of his story. It seems to me that Leo and Don get every other episode and then Mikey gets the in between filler episodes. I really hated the hampton arc where Raph was a plant for almost a whole episode. It could just be me, but that's how I'm feeling it.

[senpai]

I think it's time we see more Raphael! Nightwatcherrr gooo!

[Ashwolf]

I hope the Dark Raph showcases just how important he is to the team, and that they are glad that he is on their side and not the other way around. But part of me feels it's going to be another episode that just showboats how great Leo is compared to everyone else. Heck, back on the farm they had April beating Raph in training.

she only got in a lucky hit in that ep :roll:

[victory_angel]

Episode-wise- When it comes to legitimate episodes, this is where I disagree. Raphael only has a small handful of actual episode development. The ones where he's a main focus are as followed (I also added in a few that might not qualify entirely, but deserve mention):

Season 1:
Turtle Temper- As the first of the five character development episodes leading to The Gauntlet, it demonstrated a signature of the character no matter the version: his anger. Solid episode to begin Raph's development as a character.

New Girl in Town- The episode which builds off the brotherly feud of the older brothers. While Leo struggles with Karai, the secondary plot has Raph leading Mikey and Donnie to stopping Snakeweed after questioning Leo's authority at the beginning. It comes to terms by Raph that being leader isn't all he thought it was, another sign of growth.

Cockroach Terminator- A filler episode for Raph's phobia of insects, nothing too big for the character. (it did give some funny moments of this season though between him and Mikey :lol:)

Baxter's Gambit (to a small extent)- This I'm on the fence about, but still label it a Raph episode to a small extent. I'd label it as it has Raph forcing to work with Fishface while the other brothers got Bradford.


You forgot Operation: Break Out. Yes it was a Donnie episode, but Raph also had an equally important role in that episode.

It's Raph's jab at Donnie's relationship with April that gets Donnie to go out and prove he his brother wrong. And in the end he makes up for the incident by giving Donnie all the credit for the Rescue of Kirby O'Neil

[Vicky82]

Season 1:
Turtle Temper- As the first of the five character development episodes leading to The Gauntlet, it demonstrated a signature of the character no matter the version: his anger. Solid episode to begin Raph's development as a character.

New Girl in Town- The episode which builds off the brotherly feud of the older brothers. While Leo struggles with Karai, the secondary plot has Raph leading Mikey and Donnie to stopping Snakeweed after questioning Leo's authority at the beginning. It comes to terms by Raph that being leader isn't all he thought it was, another sign of growth.

Cockroach Terminator- A filler episode for Raph's phobia of insects, nothing too big for the character. (it did give some funny moments of this season though between him and Mikey :lol:)

Baxter's Gambit (to a small extent)- This I'm on the fence about, but still label it a Raph episode to a small extent. I'd label it as it has Raph forcing to work with Fishface while the other brothers got Bradford.

Season 2:
Slash and Destroy- Just going to say this is possibly the best episode with Raph as the main character. It builds off Spike turning into Slash and obeying Raph's words like a "good" pet. It comes to terms with Raph caring for his family while also battling the pet he cared for overtime. Pretty dark episode for season 2's beginning and introduces Slash strongly while building off everything Raph has done to this point.

The Good, the Bad, and Casey Jones- Back to back strong episodes for the hothead with him coming to terms with his anger again.:roll: It does introduce the bond that Raphael gets with Casey,showing it as a friendly battle between the two before establishing them as a powerful team when they battle the Foot-Bots.

Newtralized!- Builds off the plotline with Slash and the relationship with Casey and Raph. It still felt like a disappointment to me as an episode as I expected a little too much, but it once more contributes to Raph's interactions with others.

Plan 10- The swapping of the brains allows Raph to see what is happening with the Kraang. Though Raphael is in the spotlight, it is more of a buildup episode for The Invasion and gives Nolan North a return as Raph since the 2007 film. Fun little episode overall.

Season 3:
Vision Quest- Since this is the last episode before going back to New York, it made sense all four were going to get some focus as a team. If you could tell though, the farm episodes didn't have a Raph-centered episode at all while everyone else did. Though a good episode that gives some awesome fighting and showing Raph's anger again, it could have been built on more. Either way, all the Turtles got equal screen time for this particular episode.

Casey Jones VS. The Underworld- Although Casey was the center focus here, it does add more to the friendship that Raph and Casey.


You forgot Operation: Break Out. Yes it was a Donnie episode, but Raph also had an equally important role in that episode.

It's Raph's jab at Donnie's relationship with April that gets Donnie to go out and prove he his brother wrong. And in the end he makes up for the incident by giving Donnie all the credit for the Rescue of Kirby O'Neil

You also forgot the episode Mazes and Mutants, Raph had some focus in that episode as he was having trouble in what to believe and not to believe in.

[GoldMutant]

You forgot Operation: Break Out. Yes it was a Donnie episode, but Raph also had an equally important role in that episode.

It's Raph's jab at Donnie's relationship with April that gets Donnie to go out and prove he his brother wrong. And in the end he makes up for the incident by giving Donnie all the credit for the Rescue of Kirby O'Neil

Indeed Operation: Break Out is primarily a Donatello episode, but good point with Raph being responsible as the cause of the story.

You also forgot the episode Mazes and Mutants, Raph had some focus in that episode as he was having trouble in what to believe and not to believe in.

Vicky, fair point with Raph here in Mazes and Mutants. It makes me think a little of "you can believe want you to believe in" as a moral. However, this is one episode I really didn't know what to qualify as who it focuses on character-wise besides it being fun filler.

[jenna]

To me, it's not that he doesn't have focus, it's that the focus he does have is not as meaningful as that given to Don and Leo and to a lesser extent, Mikey.

Raphael's exposure feels like wasted potential.

1) As a character he is traditionally something of a tortured soul, which would provide some great scope for compelling storytelling. So far, beside the odd temper tantrum, we've not been shown this side of Raph;

2) Sean Astin has a fantastic range and is one of our truly great actors. The work he has done is brilliant, but he is not being utilised to his full capacity;

3) Raphael-centric storylines seem to involve him turning into stuff... A Kraang, a turkey, a frickin' FLOWER. This dilutes the impact of his development because from a visual perspective it's not Raphael we see undertaking the journey.

I'll hold comment until the Dark Raph stuff is in play, but really the part of me which gets emotional catharsis from TMNT just wants to see Raph in emotional crisis. Not that I'm a sadist or anything, but for me, that has always been the role he represents in the group: angst, alienation, anger that runs deeper and more profoundly than just having a short fuse.

[Amaranthus]

Being brainwashed=/=character focus.
If they pull this on Karai I'm going to lose my sh*t.

[Luckyday]

To me, it's not that he doesn't have focus, it's that the focus he does have is not as meaningful as that given to Don and Leo and to a lesser extent, Mikey.

Raphael's exposure feels like wasted potential.

1) As a character he is traditionally something of a tortured soul, which would provide some great scope for compelling storytelling. So far, beside the odd temper tantrum, we've not been shown this side of Raph;

2) Sean Astin has a fantastic range and is one of our truly great actors. The work he has done is brilliant, but he is not being utilised to his full capacity;

3) Raphael-centric storylines seem to involve him turning into stuff... A Kraang, a turkey, a frickin' FLOWER. This dilutes the impact of his development because from a visual perspective it's not Raphael we see undertaking the journey.

I'll hold comment until the Dark Raph stuff is in play, but really the part of me which gets emotional catharsis from TMNT just wants to see Raph in emotional crisis. Not that I'm a sadist or anything, but for me, that has always been the role he represents in the group: angst, alienation, anger that runs deeper and more profoundly than just having a short fuse.

The only episode to me that really focused on Raph as a character was Slash and Destroy. I have a feeling that this mind control Raph episode won't be so much focus on him as it would be more of Raph being part of the group that control by Shredder, which is done to raise the stakes.

This could be the case but episode can still be good regardless of who gets the focus. I know that we not going their version of City fall and I'm perfectly okay with that. In fact, I wouldn't want a exact remake of a Dark sans Leo replace with Raph plot-line. I want them to do their own thing because that is when they shine most in my opinion. The only thing that can get me worried is pacing, structure, and most importantly the after math that could lead into character development.

Although base on their track record that may be asking for too much on that last part.

At the very least give me a well constructed episode with decent pacing. Don't rush it, don't lag on stuff that are unnecessary and unrelated to the plot, (that means no Apritello ****) and put emphasis on certain key character interactions like Raph with his family before getting mind control so that the mind control moment can can do its job of hitting us right in the feels.

Can you do that writers? Can you try to be competent for this one episode? I know you guys are great on the stand alones but I really need you guys to focus on this one. Please or Raph fans are never going to shut about this.

[Sabacooza]

Please or Raph fans are never going to shut up about this.Well, that to and some of us will just stop watching and supporting the show entirely.

[ssjup81]

Why are there never options for us in the middle? Anyway, I think he's being dealt with ok personality wise as I enjoy the character. I love the fact that he's playing the straight man in this series...a counterbalance to the other three, which is why I SO don't want him to have a love interest. I like that he's the muscle, but a big softy who cares about his brothers and friends. For me, as I've said plenty of times, I don't care which turtle is connected to which plot, as long as he's genuinely likeable. His character has been consistent and I've never cringed over stuff dealing with him...unlike Mikey. Also, imo, Raph has some of the best eps and I enjoy the small things he do whenever around and glad we're not getting angry Raph all the time.

Now for some negatives...like Mikey, it probably would be nice if he had an ongoing storyline or plot like Leo and Donnie...but at the same time, at this point, I'm not as bothered with it as much as I was after the first season. I still really like him and I find that more important. Or it's just easier to entertain me since I don't have an overall favorite and varies from medium to medium and with this iteration, it seems it's gotten to the point that it changes on a whim.

Also, in ref to what you guys were talking about earlier, Donny for the OT was a fav for the writers, hence the multitude of Donny saves the day with improbable deux ex machina science babble and mad scientists and B-movie-plot-based eps. The fan favorites were Mikey and Raph hands down.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Raphael is a turtle that you can do so much with in terms of story due to his dark nature. Focusing episodes centered around him would help make him a fan favorite among children who like those type of characters. You could do an episode where he can come to blows with Slash, meet a kid who can relate to him (like The Lone Cub or whatever it was called in 2k3), a battle between him and Leo over leadership, him going out of control, turning into a mutant beast like in Volume 4, or learning to better channel his emotions. The possibilities are endless. I see these as missed opportunities.

[senpai]

Raphael is a turtle that you can do so much with in terms of story due to his dark nature. Focusing episodes centered around him would help make him a fan favorite among children who like those type of characters. You could do an episode where he can come to blows with Slash, meet a kid who can relate to him (like The Lone Cub or whatever it was called in 2k3), a battle between him and Leo over leadership, him going out of control, turning into a mutant beast like in Volume 4, or learning to better channel his emotions. The possibilities are endless. I see these as missed opportunities.

Well, they already argued over leadership before and Raph proved he couldn't handle it, nor did he want to be leader by the end of the episode. So I don't think they can go there again. It would have to be something different...

And Splinter's already taught him the lesson of controlling his anger, like, in episode 3! But...that doesn't necessarily mean he's gonna keep it together all the time. He DOES have an anger problem after all.

I agree with you though. There are lots of directions the writers can take Raphael. I'm not sure how long he'll be 'Dark' Raphael but I still feel he's more of a background character compared to the other turtles now. He still makes his quips from time to time which is nice, but I think we all want to see more. I can see him being the Nightwatcher though. If he doesn't want to be leader, then he can go solo. He even said--something along the lines of: "I can risk my own life...but not my brothers." And then he rambles on about how they need Leo back as leader and yada yada. So yeah, I think Nightwatcher would be a good option for this show. Raph would still get in trouble, he may meet a kid getting beat up and make friends...

We're even led to believe that Casey and Raph fight crime together. I remember Casey mentioning it and Raph was like yeah let's go. But we just never see them out together. That's what the viewers want though. To see what he's doing, because right now he's being overshadowed by the rest of the turtles. Even April has more things going on than Raphael. Raphael has always been my favorite turtle...but he's losing his appeal and now it's starting to be Leo xP

[GiveMeBackMyRaphXLeo]

no I don't think any turtle got enough spotlight in this show. its all abt the april. its sad. this is teenage mutant ninja turtle not teenage ninja girl. its so ironic

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Sabacooza View Post
Well, that to and some of us will just stop watching and supporting the show entirely.

This. I'm watching some of the latest episodes in spurts, but really, if this "Dark Raph" does not deliver for me, as a Raph fan, then fudge it, I am completely done with this show. Shame, I'm watching Daredevil right now on Netflix, and I so wish we could get a Raph similar to Daredevil.






I agree with you though. There are lots of directions the writers can take Raphael. I'm not sure how long he'll be 'Dark' Raphael but I still feel he's more of a background character compared to the other turtles now. He still makes his quips from time to time which is nice, but I think we all want to see more. I can see him being the Nightwatcher though. If he doesn't want to be leader, then he can go solo. He even said--something along the lines of: "I can risk my own life...but not my brothers." And then he rambles on about how they need Leo back as leader and yada yada. So yeah, I think Nightwatcher would be a good option for this show. Raph would still get in trouble, he may meet a kid getting beat up and make friends...


Sadly, I feel Raphael is not only a background character to his brothers, but to Casey and April as well. In fact, it seems to me, once they introduced Casey Jones, and he joins the Turtles, is when Raphael took the far backseat. Seems to me all of his character/story arcs are going to Casey.

[Lethal Lullaby]

no I don't think any turtle got enough spotlight in this show. its all abt the april. its sad. this is teenage mutant ninja turtle not teenage ninja girl. its so ironic

I don't see how the show only focuses on April... You must be somewhat interested in her if she's all you're apparently seeing. I mean I think the turtles get enough focus and will eventually get the focus they deserve sooner. ;)

[GiveMeBackMyRaphXLeo]

I don't see how the show only focuses on April... You must be somewhat interested in her if she's all you're apparently seeing. I mean I think the turtles get enough focus and will eventually get the focus they deserve sooner. ;)

u must be blind, she has been one of the clues throughout the story line, its all abt she looking for her dad, compare with 4kids series, where she just appeared in certain episodes never thru the storyline at all.

and why would I be interested in a girl they r not attractive to me. i wish it cud be a sexy guy around the turtles instead of a superpower girl but like that's gonna happen.

[Lethal Lullaby]

Alright. Whatever you say. If that's how you see it. Cool. I was just saying. :P
People have different perspectives on things. We see what we want. And it's normal. (Or sometimes we don't)

[GiveMeBackMyRaphXLeo]

i kno what u mean, like some ppl think raph/mikey is more official but some ppl prefer raph/leo... and talking abt the team ups, just add another reason i like 2k3 more becoz its more raph/leo, but nick's is more raph/mikey...:(

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I notice nobody has mentioned that it was RAPH who was basically in charge and helping Leo the most all through the Northhampton arc this season. He was the one leading the training, he was the one with Leo before AND after he woke up- basically his entire recovery was aided and prodded along by Raph- and he was the one acting as interim leader for everything else. He's had PLENTY of focus this season, even if he wasn't the star of every other episode. He's sort of taken the spot of Leo's second, and I kind of like that.

[Tarris Vaal]

Quoted from Senpai
We're even led to believe that Casey and Raph fight crime together. I remember Casey mentioning it and Raph was like yeah let's go. But we just never see them out together.

This is interesting though isnt it? It seems to be indicative of a lot of issues the show has that so much character development is apparently done 'off screen' or is very, very subtle - as Marvelduckie said;


I notice nobody has mentioned that it was RAPH who was basically in charge and helping Leo the most all through the Northhampton arc this season. He was the one leading the training, he was the one with Leo before AND after he woke up- basically his entire recovery was aided and prodded along by Raph- and he was the one acting as interim leader for everything else. He's had PLENTY of focus this season, even if he wasn't the star of every other episode. He's sort of taken the spot of Leo's second, and I kind of like that.

Its not directly obvious he's getting any development, but I dont think its true to say he isn't getting any. Its there, its just not 'in our faces' as it is with Donnie or Leo (or Casey recently)

I've mentioned before how Raph has become the group's 'straight guy' in that he's the sensible one trying to slap sense into everyone else - Leo included. He is getting focus, but its because its always because he seems to be present to act as the sensible brother when everyone else is doing stuff.


Interesting idea though about Casey taking his place - hadn't really noticed that before, but I can see where you are coming from there :)

[ssjup81]

I notice nobody has mentioned that it was RAPH who was basically in charge and helping Leo the most all through the Northhampton arc this season. He was the one leading the training, he was the one with Leo before AND after he woke up- basically his entire recovery was aided and prodded along by Raph- and he was the one acting as interim leader for everything else. He's had PLENTY of focus this season, even if he wasn't the star of every other episode. He's sort of taken the spot of Leo's second, and I kind of like that.Very true. It was also mentioned how he kept a vigilant watch over Leo while he was out, which is why his being caught by the Creeper didn't bother me much. I was under the impression that he lacked any proper rest so he's allowed to have an off day. After Leo awoke, he was the one trying to help him recover which seemed to be nearly instantly done...like he went right into it. Raph seemed to be back on his game after Leo was up and about after this ep. I didn't care for the turning into a plant thing, but it was a toned down adaptation of the bloodsucker story from Mirage and Raph was the victim for that originally.

[Rooish]

Not seeing through the eyes of a Raph fan, I don't really get the problem. I feel like Donny has a disproportionate focus but Raph isn't shafted compared to Leo and Mikey. I mean in the very first episode he was established as the best fighter, and in almost every episode he gets his own particularly kick a$$ action moment in a fight. As mentioned, he is the straight man in this series, which is weird because I thought he was supposed to be the passionate, irrational one, but it makes him seem to be the almost-leader and the most stable character in a way.

The lack of focus is fine by me, since he has been the main, if not one of the main, characters in so many of the other incarnations. And when he is the focus, it's like the writers had such a hard on for him that they can't even remember the other turtles. Let's look at the main characters of each series.

1) Mirage - he carried a lot of the emotional weight in Return to New York. In City at War, Leo was the main Turtle, but Raph had a lot of emphasis as the guy arguing and going off on his own. I think he was either the main Turtle or the second most important in Mirage, depending.
2) Image - I think that Raph had the most development and focus in this, as well, and the coolest arc.
3) Archie - It was almost embarrassing how much of the main character Raph was. Don too but more Raph. Was Mikey even in this series? Do Raph fans realize how shafted Don and Mike usually are? I mean in the Nick cartoon Mikey fans have to deal with Mikey's complete and utter idiocy, worse than ever before. Anyway back to Archie. Raph had a girlfriend and like the final third of the series focused on this, or Future Raph killing Verminator, punching Hitler, and on and on and on.
4) First movie: obviously Raph.
5) Second movie: I disagree that it was Don. He had some existential crises but Raph had his moments of running off on his own and training Keno.
6) Third movie: I don't much remember, but I think Raph and Mike shared the focus.
7) FW cartoon: I think Raph was less important in this, compared to Mikey and especially Don, but there was no real character development in this show anyway, so no one went anywhere. Raph certainly had plenty of lines and jokes.
8 ) Coming out of our shells - Raph was lead singer.
9) Next Mutation - not sure, I think Venus was the main character? But I remember Raph having his angsty going off on his own moments.
10) 2003 series - Raph was the least focused on Turtle in this, but even so he was really the second in command and the passionate one who was always rescuing his brothers and kicking butt.
11) Mirage Volume 4 - Probably Raph was the least focused on Turtle.
12) Tales of the TMNT - too much variety; I don't really know. He certainly got more front pieces than Mikey. Tales Volume 2 was mostly Murphy's hard on for Don.
13) 2007 movie - Another where Raph had an almost embarssing amount of focus. I mean the final battle is all Raph Raph Raph and a bit of Leo. If any Turtle gets a meaningful close up on his face, it's Raph. Don and Mikey are like background blurs who were barely in the movie.
14) IDW series - Raph was the main Turtle for the first 10 or so issues, then it was ensemble, then Leo for a bit, then Don for a bit. Hey, what about Mikey? Who ever gave a crap about Mikey and his development, besides the 2003 series? (I'm being a bit sarcastic; Mikey does have lots of good moments in IDW, but not his own plotline. No one even tries to have Mikey carry an emotional plotline.)
15) PD movie - I know no one cares, but yeah, Raph was totally the main Turtle.

So like, really? Is the situation so intolerable for Raph fans with this new series? Guess what guys? I already have long since given up on the Nick series, mostly because of how stupidly Mikey is treated and how weird Donatello is acting, and the general crappy treatment of April. Enough with Raph already! He's kind of a selfish jerk, especially in the Nick series, so I don't miss him.

[Sabacooza]

Not seeing through the eyes of a Raph fan, I don't really get the problem. I feel like Donny has a disproportionate focus but Raph isn't shafted compared to Leo and Mikey. I mean in the very first episode he was established as the best fighter, and in almost every episode he gets his own particularly kick a$$ action moment in a fight. As mentioned, he is the straight man in this series, which is weird because I thought he was supposed to be the passionate, irrational one, but it makes him seem to be the almost-leader and the most stable character in a way.

The lack of focus is fine by me, since he has been the main, if not one of the main, characters in so many of the other incarnations. And when he is the focus, it's like the writers had such a hard on for him that they can't even remember the other turtles. Let's look at the main characters of each series.

1) Mirage - he carried a lot of the emotional weight in Return to New York. In City at War, Leo was the main Turtle, but Raph had a lot of emphasis as the guy arguing and going off on his own. I think he was either the main Turtle or the second most important in Mirage, depending.
2) Image - I think that Raph had the most development and focus in this, as well, and the coolest arc.
3) Archie - It was almost embarrassing how much of the main character Raph was. Don too but more Raph. Was Mikey even in this series? Do Raph fans realize how shafted Don and Mike usually are? I mean in the Nick cartoon Mikey fans have to deal with Mikey's complete and utter idiocy, worse than ever before. Anyway back to Archie. Raph had a girlfriend and like the final third of the series focused on this, or Future Raph killing Verminator, punching Hitler, and on and on and on.
4) First movie: obviously Raph.
5) Second movie: I disagree that it was Don. He had some existential crises but Raph had his moments of running off on his own and training Keno.
6) Third movie: I don't much remember, but I think Raph and Mike shared the focus.
7) FW cartoon: I think Raph was less important in this, compared to Mikey and especially Don, but there was no real character development in this show anyway, so no one went anywhere. Raph certainly had plenty of lines and jokes.
8 ) Coming out of our shells - Raph was lead singer.
9) Next Mutation - not sure, I think Venus was the main character? But I remember Raph having his angsty going off on his own moments.
10) 2003 series - Raph was the least focused on Turtle in this, but even so he was really the second in command and the passionate one who was always rescuing his brothers and kicking butt.
11) Mirage Volume 4 - Probably Raph was the least focused on Turtle.
12) Tales of the TMNT - too much variety; I don't really know. He certainly got more front pieces than Mikey. Tales Volume 2 was mostly Murphy's hard on for Don.
13) 2007 movie - Another where Raph had an almost embarssing amount of focus. I mean the final battle is all Raph Raph Raph and a bit of Leo. If any Turtle gets a meaningful close up on his face, it's Raph. Don and Mikey are like background blurs who were barely in the movie.
14) IDW series - Raph was the main Turtle for the first 10 or so issues, then it was ensemble, then Leo for a bit, then Don for a bit. Hey, what about Mikey? Who ever gave a crap about Mikey and his development, besides the 2003 series? (I'm being a bit sarcastic; Mikey does have lots of good moments in IDW, but not his own plotline. No one even tries to have Mikey carry an emotional plotline.)
15) PD movie - I know no one cares, but yeah, Raph was totally the main Turtle.

So like, really? Is the situation so intolerable for Raph fans with this new series? Guess what guys? I already have long since given up on it, mostly because of how stupidly Mikey is treated and how weird Donatello is acting. Enough with Raph already! He's kind of a selfish jerk, especially in the Nick series, so I don't miss him.Uhh, who cares about all the other shows and movies? We're talking about the Nick show seeing as how it's in the Nick section.:roll:

You're not a Raph fan so I don't expect you to notice the lack of screen time or development. Hell, they took just about everything away from this character. He doesn't have Casey, He doesn't even have anything going on with Slash anymore, He's the butt of all of Mikey's jokes. He's weak. Any time there is a glimmer of character development it just peters out. At least Mikey has all the filler episodes. What does Raph get? I'm not saying Raph needs to be the main focus but good God throw us Raph fans a bone. Yeah, okay. We get the dark Raph arc but I'm sure it will amount to nothing more than boosting Leo's status even further as the one that beats evil Raph. I'm almost positive the arc will fall flat for Raph as a character.

Raph's a selfish jerk you say? Believe what you want but it sounds to me like you haven't been paying much attention. If that's how the character is seen in your eyes, that's clearly the fault of the terrible writers.

I will give you this. Mikey has turned into a moron in this series which I'm beginning to loathe.

[Sahtori]

A friend of mine who's a huge "Mikey" fan said he has "autism" in the Nicks show. I don't know if that's true.

I love the show. I laugh mostly with Raph's sarcasm. Sometimes he seems the sarcastic way of "the voice of reason' placing Leo back on the ground. I love how much he cares about his brothers...
I'm curious for the dark ark.

To be honest, I'm just happy seeing them all. I don't feel like complaining about the show, though I'm not really a fan of Karai being a Hamato. But each line has their own way of telling it. I guess we'll see more of Raph, don't worry ;-)

[Vicky82]

A friend of mine who's a huge "Mikey" fan said he has "autism" in the Nicks show. I don't know if that's true.

I love the show. I laugh mostly with Raph's sarcasm. Sometimes he seems the sarcastic way of "the voice of reason' placing Leo back on the ground. I love how much he cares about his brothers...
I'm curious for the dark ark.

To be honest, I'm just happy seeing them all. I don't feel like complaining about the show, though I'm not really a fan of Karai being a Hamato. But each line has their own way of telling it. I guess we'll see more of Raph, don't worry ;-)

It's actually ADHD or ADD not Autism but we won't talk about it in this thread :P

[jenna]

Not seeing through the eyes of a Raph fan, I don't really get the problem. I feel like Donny has a disproportionate focus but Raph isn't shafted compared to Leo and Mikey. I mean in the very first episode he was established as the best fighter, and in almost every episode he gets his own particularly kick a$$ action moment in a fight. As mentioned, he is the straight man in this series, which is weird because I thought he was supposed to be the passionate, irrational one, but it makes him seem to be the almost-leader and the most stable character in a way.

The lack of focus is fine by me, since he has been the main, if not one of the main, characters in so many of the other incarnations. And when he is the focus, it's like the writers had such a hard on for him that they can't even remember the other turtles. Let's look at the main characters of each series.

1) Mirage - he carried a lot of the emotional weight in Return to New York. In City at War, Leo was the main Turtle, but Raph had a lot of emphasis as the guy arguing and going off on his own. I think he was either the main Turtle or the second most important in Mirage, depending.
2) Image - I think that Raph had the most development and focus in this, as well, and the coolest arc.
3) Archie - It was almost embarrassing how much of the main character Raph was. Don too but more Raph. Was Mikey even in this series? Do Raph fans realize how shafted Don and Mike usually are? I mean in the Nick cartoon Mikey fans have to deal with Mikey's complete and utter idiocy, worse than ever before. Anyway back to Archie. Raph had a girlfriend and like the final third of the series focused on this, or Future Raph killing Verminator, punching Hitler, and on and on and on.
4) First movie: obviously Raph.
5) Second movie: I disagree that it was Don. He had some existential crises but Raph had his moments of running off on his own and training Keno.
6) Third movie: I don't much remember, but I think Raph and Mike shared the focus.
7) FW cartoon: I think Raph was less important in this, compared to Mikey and especially Don, but there was no real character development in this show anyway, so no one went anywhere. Raph certainly had plenty of lines and jokes.
8 ) Coming out of our shells - Raph was lead singer.
9) Next Mutation - not sure, I think Venus was the main character? But I remember Raph having his angsty going off on his own moments.
10) 2003 series - Raph was the least focused on Turtle in this, but even so he was really the second in command and the passionate one who was always rescuing his brothers and kicking butt.
11) Mirage Volume 4 - Probably Raph was the least focused on Turtle.
12) Tales of the TMNT - too much variety; I don't really know. He certainly got more front pieces than Mikey. Tales Volume 2 was mostly Murphy's hard on for Don.
13) 2007 movie - Another where Raph had an almost embarssing amount of focus. I mean the final battle is all Raph Raph Raph and a bit of Leo. If any Turtle gets a meaningful close up on his face, it's Raph. Don and Mikey are like background blurs who were barely in the movie.
14) IDW series - Raph was the main Turtle for the first 10 or so issues, then it was ensemble, then Leo for a bit, then Don for a bit. Hey, what about Mikey? Who ever gave a crap about Mikey and his development, besides the 2003 series? (I'm being a bit sarcastic; Mikey does have lots of good moments in IDW, but not his own plotline. No one even tries to have Mikey carry an emotional plotline.)
15) PD movie - I know no one cares, but yeah, Raph was totally the main Turtle.

So like, really? Is the situation so intolerable for Raph fans with this new series? Guess what guys? I already have long since given up on the Nick series, mostly because of how stupidly Mikey is treated and how weird Donatello is acting, and the general crappy treatment of April. Enough with Raph already! He's kind of a selfish jerk, especially in the Nick series, so I don't miss him.

You're right, Roo, in that as a Raphael fan I am very aware that I've been spoiled by the character development he's had in other versions.

For some reason it seems that film writers are not afraid to give him some focus, whereas the TV series writers seem to "not want to go there". 2k3 had plenty of reference to his anger but dared not dig into its roots or give him any depth. The OT just didn't go there at all. Nick seems to be treading a fine line between the two. Perhaps it's a consciousness of the youngness of the audience which makes kids TV shows unwilling to embrace Raph's angst, whereas films and comics at least have a potentially broader audience.

The thing is, there is more to Raphael than just his temper. Nick have shown us a glimpse of Raph's other qualities, particularly in the Northampton episodes where he stepped up to the challenge of taking responsibility for the family and even the farmhouse.

I think Raph has camera time, it's just not necessarily the kind of camera time that Raph fans expect or crave.

Mikey seems to have plenty of screen time in Nick, but he never seems to grow or develop which again is equally frustrating.

[Rooish]

Sorry for the flip out. Just because Mike/Don fans have gotten used to neglect doesn't mean that Raph fans shouldn't be annoyed by his treatment in the Nick series. I can see that Raph is the butt of jokes and that must be annoying for Raph fans. I just can't help but get annoyed as a Mikey fan, because Mike is usually the butt of jokes throughout the series, and most writers don't try to give him any depth.

I think Raph was a jerk in the early Nick episodes, but he is pretty cool now and I can see why people wish they could see more of this.

[Warhorse]

Not seeing through the eyes of a Raph fan, I don't really get the problem. I feel like Donny has a disproportionate focus but Raph isn't shafted compared to Leo and Mikey. I mean in the very first episode he was established as the best fighter, and in almost every episode he gets his own particularly kick a$$ action moment in a fight. As mentioned, he is the straight man in this series, which is weird because I thought he was supposed to be the passionate, irrational one, but it makes him seem to be the almost-leader and the most stable character in a way.

The lack of focus is fine by me, since he has been the main, if not one of the main, characters in so many of the other incarnations. And when he is the focus, it's like the writers had such a hard on for him that they can't even remember the other turtles. Let's look at the main characters of each series.

1) Mirage - he carried a lot of the emotional weight in Return to New York. In City at War, Leo was the main Turtle, but Raph had a lot of emphasis as the guy arguing and going off on his own. I think he was either the main Turtle or the second most important in Mirage, depending.
2) Image - I think that Raph had the most development and focus in this, as well, and the coolest arc.
3) Archie - It was almost embarrassing how much of the main character Raph was. Don too but more Raph. Was Mikey even in this series? Do Raph fans realize how shafted Don and Mike usually are? I mean in the Nick cartoon Mikey fans have to deal with Mikey's complete and utter idiocy, worse than ever before. Anyway back to Archie. Raph had a girlfriend and like the final third of the series focused on this, or Future Raph killing Verminator, punching Hitler, and on and on and on.
4) First movie: obviously Raph.
5) Second movie: I disagree that it was Don. He had some existential crises but Raph had his moments of running off on his own and training Keno.
6) Third movie: I don't much remember, but I think Raph and Mike shared the focus.
7) FW cartoon: I think Raph was less important in this, compared to Mikey and especially Don, but there was no real character development in this show anyway, so no one went anywhere. Raph certainly had plenty of lines and jokes.
8 ) Coming out of our shells - Raph was lead singer.
9) Next Mutation - not sure, I think Venus was the main character? But I remember Raph having his angsty going off on his own moments.
10) 2003 series - Raph was the least focused on Turtle in this, but even so he was really the second in command and the passionate one who was always rescuing his brothers and kicking butt.
11) Mirage Volume 4 - Probably Raph was the least focused on Turtle.
12) Tales of the TMNT - too much variety; I don't really know. He certainly got more front pieces than Mikey. Tales Volume 2 was mostly Murphy's hard on for Don.
13) 2007 movie - Another where Raph had an almost embarssing amount of focus. I mean the final battle is all Raph Raph Raph and a bit of Leo. If any Turtle gets a meaningful close up on his face, it's Raph. Don and Mikey are like background blurs who were barely in the movie.
14) IDW series - Raph was the main Turtle for the first 10 or so issues, then it was ensemble, then Leo for a bit, then Don for a bit. Hey, what about Mikey? Who ever gave a crap about Mikey and his development, besides the 2003 series? (I'm being a bit sarcastic; Mikey does have lots of good moments in IDW, but not his own plotline. No one even tries to have Mikey carry an emotional plotline.)
15) PD movie - I know no one cares, but yeah, Raph was totally the main Turtle.

So like, really? Is the situation so intolerable for Raph fans with this new series? Guess what guys? I already have long since given up on the Nick series, mostly because of how stupidly Mikey is treated and how weird Donatello is acting, and the general crappy treatment of April. Enough with Raph already! He's kind of a selfish jerk, especially in the Nick series, so I don't miss him.
At least we agree on something, the show as a whole in respecting the core characters, sucks big time. After watching Daredevil on Netflix, I realized that the Turtles really did get the short end of the stick.

[jenna]

Sorry for the flip out. Just because Mike/Don fans have gotten used to neglect doesn't mean that Raph fans shouldn't be annoyed by his treatment in the Nick series. I can see that Raph is the butt of jokes and that must be annoying for Raph fans. I just can't help but get annoyed as a Mikey fan, because Mike is usually the butt of jokes throughout the series, and most writers don't try to give him any depth.

I think Raph was a jerk in the early Nick episodes, but he is pretty cool now and I can see why people wish they could see more of this.

You're right - Mikey fans have just as much reason to be frustrated. I love Mikey and I love Nick's Mikey, but every time he learns something or has significant development, it's all undone by the next episode.

[Jephael]

Mikey fans have just as much reason to be frustrated. I love Mikey and I love Nick's Mikey, but every time he learns something or has significant development, it's all undone by the next episode.

Actually, that rings true for all 4 of them. In the Big Foot episode Don realizes he's coming on too strong with his feelings for April and finally decides not to pursue her. Then in the Speed Demon episode he's right back to having the hots for her and fighting with Casey over her.

[jenna]

Actually, that rings true for all 4 of them. In the Big Foot episode Don realizes he's coming on too strong with his feelings for April and finally decides not to pursue her. Then in the Speed Demon episode he's right back to having the hots for her and fighting with Casey over her.

Very good point.

[Tarris Vaal]

Actually, that rings true for all 4 of them. In the Big Foot episode Don realizes he's coming on too strong with his feelings for April and finally decides not to pursue her. Then in the Speed Demon episode he's right back to having the hots for her and fighting with Casey over her.

Though in all fairness for that, April's mixed signals hardly helped. :) I think anyone could be forgiven for getting confused.
It would have been better if they had at least referenced what had happened at the end of Big Foot though - rather than diving into the squabbling again.


Anyway - enough of Don, this is Raph's thread - would be kinda terrible if a thread arguing Raph doesn't get enough focus goes off tangent talking about Donnie!

How did Raph do in this latest ep?

[Luckyday]

Though in all fairness for that, April's mixed signals hardly helped. :) I think anyone could be forgiven for getting confused.
It would have been better if they had at least referenced what had happened at the end of Big Foot though - rather than diving into the squabbling again.


Anyway - enough of Don, this is Raph's thread - would be kinda terrible if a thread arguing Raph doesn't get enough focus goes off tangent talking about Donnie!

How did Raph do in this latest ep?

He was cool from what I can recalled. Being his usual self of punch first and ask questions later.

This whole episode had zero plot amnesia which really shocked me to no end. Everybody in this episode recalled from previous events, even the garbage man remember his past encounters of pervious mutants of the week. It was so weird to see this having so much continuity. :teek:

[Sabacooza]

Sorry for the flip out. Just because Mike/Don fans have gotten used to neglect doesn't mean that Raph fans shouldn't be annoyed by his treatment in the Nick series. I can see that Raph is the butt of jokes and that must be annoying for Raph fans. I just can't help but get annoyed as a Mikey fan, because Mike is usually the butt of jokes throughout the series, and most writers don't try to give him any depth.

I think Raph was a jerk in the early Nick episodes, but he is pretty cool now and I can see why people wish they could see more of this.You're probably not addressing me specifically but I flipped out a bit as well. I just get really annoyed when he's clearly getting very little good quality screen time in this series and people insist that he is and when people only see Raph as the angry jerk. There's much more to him but the writers refuse to go there with him or if they do, it doesn't really amount to anything. I want there to be more to Raph than just being there in the background and only throwing out a quick sarcastic remark here and there.

As for Mikey, I feel you totally. That's another case where there's so much to the character but all they do is make him into an annoying goofball. I don't know where they get the idea that just because you're a happy go lucky person you have to be goofy and or an idiot. At least he has a decent amount of screen time but it's overshadowed by their need to make him an idiot when he doesn't need to be.

I just wish we could get better writers on this show. I'm not expecting Shakespeare but we need a group of people that write all of them equally and do it very well.

The show isn't horrible but it's becoming less enjoyable for me.

[IndigoErth]

There's much more to him but the writers refuse to go there with him or if they do, it doesn't really amount to anything.
Sadly I feel that could be said for all of them really. They've all kind of fallen into being about their most basic role or quality and it doesn't go too far beyond that anymore.

Leo has been fortunate in being probably the only one that's actually noticeably grown a bit (Donnie sorta, though he keep taking a step back), but it's been at the expense of losing other aspects and like everyone else any progress is in only one direction, it doesn't branch out more into who any of them are as individuals beyond their base role/quality in the group. Individually, they're little more than tropes right now.

[Sabacooza]

Sadly I feel that could be said for all of them really. They've all kind of fallen into being about their most basic role or quality and it doesn't go too far beyond that anymore.

Leo has been fortunate in being probably the only one that's actually noticeably grown a bit (Donnie sorta, though he keep taking a step back), but it's been at the expense of losing other aspects and like everyone else any progress is in only one direction, it doesn't branch out more into who any of them are as individuals beyond their base role/quality in the group. Individually, they're little more than tropes right now.I'll agree with that but as far as screen time goes, Donnie and Leo get a lot. There's no denying it. I just wish Raph got a bit more and played an important part to the group once in a while. I don't think it's too much to ask really.

[IndigoErth]

Well, I tell ya what... I hope the Dark Raph bit lasts for at least a few episodes and is so amazing that Raph's fans end up needing clean pants. Take that however you wish. lol

[senpai]

I'm hoping that the Dark Raph bit will leave a dent on Raph's personality in some way. Like maybe he'll be more protective of his brothers, or he might be more sensitive after its all over. I just don't see someone taking being brainwashed in stride. Especially since he's gonna be attacking and hurting his family... You don't just say sorry and walk away. Something else has to happen in the brain afterwards.

[jenna]

Well, I tell ya what... I hope the Dark Raph bit lasts for at least a few episodes

I'm hoping that the Dark Raph bit will leave a dent on Raph's personality in some way.

I hope for both of these as well. The optimist in me thinks they'd recognise that they'd be mad not to capitalise on the opportunity for such good storytelling by giving it decent airtime and meaty character stuff. The cynic in me thinks back to the Parasitica episode, shrugs and thinks, "Meh."

[Sabacooza]

Well, I tell ya what... I hope the Dark Raph bit lasts for at least a few episodes and is so amazing that Raph's fans end up needing clean pants. Take that however you wish. lolThe way these writers are, I see no need for an extra pair of clean pants. I predict it will be a missed opportunity for Raph as a character but that's just me.

[CyberCubed]

How would you feel if Raph gets mutated into his Gamera form like in Volume 4? And it happened to Don in the 4kids series and all the Turtles in Season 9 of the original toon.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Well, I tell ya what... I hope the Dark Raph bit lasts for at least a few episodes and is so amazing that Raph's fans end up needing clean pants. Take that however you wish. lol

It'll last for one episode and the only turtle who'll deal with it will be Leonardo. Leo will fight him, get donnie to turn him back, and the end. And Mikey won't be involved at all (even though it would make perfect sense for Mikey to be the central Turtle to get Raph back, considering all the stuff in the past like Mikey being the one & only Turtle to calm him down during his rage...particularly when Splinter was thought to be dead...but hey, it's just a cartoon, so who cares about that).

There will be nothing 'epic' about it. It'll be as 'deep' as the episode of Back to the Sewers where all of the Turtles memories were 'wiped' and were bad guys for about 5 minutes or so (aka Identity Crisis).

I'd bet money on it. It'll be, yet again, another missed opportunity/another 'kick in the teeth' to Raph fans...if the writers were able to screw up the whole 'Slash' thing THAT BADLY (SO much you could have done with that, and they flushed it away), then I don't get why anyone has hope for this...I really don't.

[Donatello19]

It probably kinda sucks for Raph fans, but I'm fine with him not hogging the spotlight for once. I did really enjoy his whole thing with Spike/Slash, though...hopefully they can find a way to expand on that a little more.

[Sabacooza]

It'll last for one episode and the only turtle who'll deal with it will be Leonardo. Leo will fight him, get donnie to turn him back, and the end.

I'd bet money on it. It'll be, yet again, another missed opportunity/another 'kick in the teeth' to Raph fans...if the writers were able to screw up the whole 'Slash' thing THAT BADLY (SO much you could have done with that, and they flushed it away), then I don't get why anyone has hope for this...I really don't.That's about the gist of it. The writers have no love for this character. They've made that perfectly clear.

[Meliwen]

I'm sorta expecting Raph to go dark near the end of the episode, and carry over at least till Deadly Venom, if not beyond that but that might be pushing it.

I don't blame anyone for assuming the worst from this arc, part of me says I'm hyping myself up too much, but regardless, I'm remaining optimistic about Dark Raph. I see hints that support that this will be a good and decent arc, but of course I could easily be looking too deep in some things. But I remain hopeful. Fingers crossed.

[Teddy]

It'll last for one episode and the only turtle who'll deal with it will be Leonardo. Leo will fight him, get donnie to turn him back, and the end. And Mikey won't be involved at all (even though it would make perfect sense for Mikey to be the central Turtle to get Raph back, considering all the stuff in the past like Mikey being the one & only Turtle to calm him down during his rage...particularly when Splinter was thought to be dead...but hey, it's just a cartoon, so who cares about that).

There will be nothing 'epic' about it. It'll be as 'deep' as the episode of Back to the Sewers where all of the Turtles memories were 'wiped' and were bad guys for about 5 minutes or so (aka Identity Crisis).

I'd bet money on it. It'll be, yet again, another missed opportunity/another 'kick in the teeth' to Raph fans...if the writers were able to screw up the whole 'Slash' thing THAT BADLY (SO much you could have done with that, and they flushed it away), then I don't get why anyone has hope for this...I really don't.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm expecting. Not much.

Raph has really been shafted in this series. The first season was awesome, but after that I feel like he's been shoved into the background. Disappointing to me of course as a Raph fan, but really he is usually the main focus in other series, so I guess I'll live. ;) Still, would be great if we could get at least one really awesome Raph episode. His episodes so far have been pretty horrible (loved Plan 10, though!).

[Sabacooza]

So apparently in the Mondo Gecko episode Mikey and Casey become buddy, buddy but yet they can't do that for Raph?! What a lousy frickin' show!:x

[Vicky82]

So apparently in the Mondo Gecko episode Mikey and Casey become buddy, buddy but yet they can't do that for Raph?! What a lousy frickin' show!:x

Wow, you sound so selfish.

So your saying that Mikey and Casey arn't allowed to spend some time together.

It be nice to have more interaction between Casey and Mikey, this is something we haven't had yet.

We haven't even had the next episode yet and your complaing over not knowing the full details on why Mikey and Casey are hanging out in the first place.

[neatoman]

How would you feel if Raph gets mutated into his Gamera form like in Volume 4? And it happened to Don in the 4kids series and all the Turtles in Season 9 of the original toon.

The Gamera form? Maybe that could work, but you have to be careful to make sure it fits. In the 4Kids series it works to have Donnie mutate as it's part of the storyline that sets season 5 in motion.

[Sabacooza]

Wow, you sound so selfish.

So your saying that Mikey and Casey arn't allowed to spend some time together.

It be nice to have more interaction between Casey and Mikey, this is something we haven't had yet.

We haven't even had the next episode yet and your complaing over not knowing the full details on why Mikey and Casey are hanging out in the first place.Don't even go there with me. They took everything away from this character so excuse me if I want a little more for Raph. I take it you're a Mikey fan so you couldn't possibly understand how I feel about this character constantly getting shafted.

[Vicky82]

Don't even go there with me. They took everything away from this character so excuse me if I want a little more for Raph. I take it you're a Mikey fan so you couldn't possibly understand how I feel about this character constantly getting shafted.

Yeah I am a Mikey fan (but I do like all of them) and I felt the same as you as Mikey was shafted in the 2014 Movie, 2007 movie, and the 1st 2 original movies as I felt he was in the background because Raph was the main focus in all of those movies.

I feel that Raph is going to be more focused in the 2016 movie because of Casey is going to be in it.

I felt that the 2003 show was more focused on Leo and Raph

Also Mikey hasn't had a major storyline in the IDW comics yet either.

So let Raph be in the background and let the other turtles have more focus for once.

I feel sorry for Donnie fans because he was constantly in the background and I bet they are happy now that he's getting more focus in the Nick show.

Seriously, some fans are so selfish that they don't care about what the other fans want.

[Sabacooza]

Yeah I am a Mikey fan (but I do like all of them) and I felt the same as you as Mikey was shafted in the 2014 Movie, 2007 movie, and the 1st 2 original movies as I felt he was in the background because Raph was the main focus in all of those movies.

I feel that Raph is going to be more focused in the 2016 movie because of Casey is going to be in it.

I felt that the 2003 show was more focused on Leo and Raph

Also Mikey hasn't had a major storyline in the IDW comics yet either.

So let Raph be in the background and let the other turtles have more focus for once.

I feel sorry for Donnie fans because he was constantly in the background and I bet they are happy now that he's getting more focus in the Nick show.

Seriously, some fans are so selfish that they don't care about what the other fans want.We're not even talking about the other things and such you think he has a big part in. This is about the Nick TV show and as it stands, Raph is treated poorly. You're not going to convince me otherwise.

[Vicky82]

We're not even talking about the other things and such you think he has a big part in. This is about the Nick TV show and as it stands, Raph is treated poorly. You're not going to convince me otherwise.

It doesn't matter, I expect the Nick crew knew Raph had a lot of focus in other incarnations and don't want him to have too much focus in this show and let ther other turtles to have bit more focus than Raph.

You have to let other fans have there favourite turtle to have a bit more focus because it isn't fair on them to see there favourite turtle shafted to the background.

What if Raph did have a lot of focus than the other turtles in the Nick show, then we would have to deal with people complaining about the bad treatmant there favourite turtle was getting.

I just hope Raph does get more focus soon, so it will shut you guys up.

Hey why don't we have a show called Raph and the Ninja Turtles or what about a Raph solo movie without any of the other turtles in it, I expect that will make Raph fans happy.

[Meliwen]

Raph getting a good arc for himself doesn't mean it'll take focus away from the other turtles. No one wants Raph to dominate the focus in the show, we just want all turtles to get a decent amount of quality focus. Yes, that includes Mikey, and at this rate I think he's the one who needs it most.

I love how Donnie's getting more focus and I like how the show has handled Donnie and Leo's character arcs. There's nothing to say the same can't be done for the other two turtles or that doing so will somehow shove Donnie and Leo under the bus.

[Vicky82]

Well whatever happens on Sunday, Raph is going to be really pissed finding out that Slash was captured because we do see him attacking Shredder before he becomes Dark in the preview.

[Meliwen]

I hope that's his motivation for what seems like him losing his temper again. He had a good lid on it so far, but Slash being captured seems like the type of thing that can break that control.

[Sabacooza]

Raph getting a good arc for himself doesn't mean it'll take focus away from the other turtles. No one wants Raph to dominate the focus in the show, we just want all turtles to get a decent amount of quality focus.Vicky obviously hasn't got a clue but you my friend clearly get it.:)

[Vicky82]

Vicky obviously hasn't got a clue but you my friend clearly get it.:)

I do get it, I know he hasn't had a episode focused on him yet in season 3 but if you pay attention, it's going to happen on Sunday and the arc is going to be big and probably going to last till the end of the season.

I guess there will be episodes that he probably won't be in it much but it's to build the storyline up to the final showdown and when Raph turns back to normal it's going to be big deal for the other turtles and they be emotionally happy that he has returned to them.

But i'll guess you'll still be complaining about it after watching Sunday (and proabably the end of the season too) and obviously you will moan about Casey and Mikey hanging out in the Mondo Gecko episode.

[Ashwolf]

I do get it, I know he hasn't had a episode focused on him yet in season 3 but if you pay attention, it's going to happen on Sunday and the arc is going to be big and probably going to last till the end of the season.

I guess there will be episodes that he probably won't be in it much but it's to build the storyline up to the final showdown and when Raph turns back to normal it's going to be big deal for the other turtles and they be emotionally happy that he has returned to them.

But i'll guess you'll still be complaining about it after watching Sunday (and proabably the end of the season too) and obviously you will moan about Casey and Mikey hanging out in the Mondo Gecko episode.

Raph fans will prob gripe about it no matter wat happens....

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

I do get it, I know he hasn't had a episode focused on him yet in season 3 but if you pay attention, it's going to happen on Sunday and the arc is going to be big and probably going to last till the end of the season.

I guess there will be episodes that he probably won't be in it much but it's to build the storyline up to the final showdown and when Raph turns back to normal it's going to be big deal for the other turtles and they be emotionally happy that he has returned to them.


So when that doesn't happen, can we complain then?

If these writers were as good as people said they were...they would:

*Make Raph gone for a bit, as in more than one episode, and have each turtle reflect on how they miss him...especially Mikey (since the two of them share a lot of close stuff throughout)

*make it so that Mikey is the one who brings Raph back to the light (but they won't do that...it'll be Leo or just some Donnie invention and 'Bop')...either by Raph getting ready to kill/hurt Mikey, but then Mikey says something (or hugs him, to reflect that certain scene at the end of Season 2) which snaps Raph out of it...this way, both Raph AND Mikey (which are my two favorites) are essential.

*afterwards, have Raph (at least for a couple episodes) try his hardest to NOT get mad or angry at anything, only to then realize that part of that Is Needed for the team...you could even have Mikey play the 'big brother' for his big brother...people keep saying that Raph has been helping Leo out this season, why not have Mikey do the same for Raph? once again, it would bring up both Raph & Mikey's characters to better usage, and give both of them at least Some type of Arc or at least something with at least a Tiny bit of depth...

But yeah, that won't happen.

[Vicky82]

So when that doesn't happen, can we complain then?

If these writers were as good as people said they were...they would:

*Make Raph gone for a bit, as in more than one episode, and have each turtle reflect on how they miss him...especially Mikey (since the two of them share a lot of close stuff throughout)

*make it so that Mikey is the one who brings Raph back to the light (but they won't do that...it'll be Leo or just some Donnie invention and 'Bop')...either by Raph getting ready to kill/hurt Mikey, but then Mikey says something (or hugs him, to reflect that certain scene at the end of Season 2) which snaps Raph out of it...this way, both Raph AND Mikey (which are my two favorites) are essential.

*afterwards, have Raph (at least for a couple episodes) try his hardest to NOT get mad or angry at anything, only to then realize that part of that Is Needed for the team...you could even have Mikey play the 'big brother' for his big brother...people keep saying that Raph has been helping Leo out this season, why not have Mikey do the same for Raph? once again, it would bring up both Raph & Mikey's characters to better usage, and give both of them at least Some type of Arc or at least something with at least a Tiny bit of depth...

But yeah, that won't happen.

Wow that's funny, this is how I see things, as I think it's Mikey is going help Raph but yeah it depends on the writers.

So yeah complain all you want over focus on Raph but wait till after the season ends.

[Meliwen]

I'm busy watching the gif in your sig, Vicky, and I'm really hoping it's Mikey as well!

[Sabacooza]

I do get it, I know he hasn't had a episode focused on him yet in season 3 but if you pay attention, it's going to happen on Sunday and the arc is going to be big and probably going to last till the end of the season.

I guess there will be episodes that he probably won't be in it much but it's to build the storyline up to the final showdown and when Raph turns back to normal it's going to be big deal for the other turtles and they be emotionally happy that he has returned to them.

But i'll guess you'll still be complaining about it after watching Sunday (and proabably the end of the season too) and obviously you will moan about Casey and Mikey hanging out in the Mondo Gecko episode. I don't know where you get the idea that just because you think Raph was focused on previuosly in shows and movies that he deserves to have much less screen time in this show. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's also bad story telling. I never said I wanted it to be all Raph all the time. I want balance but it pains me to see a character I care about being neglected and treated so poorly in this show. I'm sure you'd feel similar if Mikey was terribly neglected in the show. What I'm trying to say is just because past shows were unbalanced doesn't mean this one has to be. Again, it's unprofessional to favor one over the other. I didn't have a problem per say with Mikey befriending Casey but Casey has always been Raph's best buddy and I just feel that's just another thing they took from him that made him special. It's one thing after another with these writers.I don't expect you to agree with me, hell, you don't even have to like me but hopfully now you get an idea where I come from. Also, when I'm passionate about something, I fight hard for it. I am what I am.


Raph fans will prob gripe about it no matter wat happens....Do it right and we won't have to.

[GoldMutant]

I always read that either Mikey or Raph were the most popular with the fandom, but what is popular and what is actually being depicted in the toons, movies and comics are totally different thing. Like you said, Mikey was the most focused in the old toon, but Donnie was often the one that saved the day the most. I will admit, I think Raph was the third most focused while Leo would have been the least. The movies, the 1990 movie might have given the biggest arc to Raph, but he was actually knocked out for a good while, and in the end, Leonardo, Splinter and Casey are the ones that dealt the final blows to the Shredder. SOTO, was mostly Donnie with the whole scientist thing, the third was mostly on Mikey, the 2007 I believe was a combination of Raph and Leo (the sequel to it looked like it was going to be Mikey based, but that never saw the light of day) and I seriously don't take anything from the 2014 movie in any consideration. It means nothing to me. And anyways, Raphael still hardly shined in any of these movies, it was still mostly Leonardo taking on the big bads. The 2k3 show was a whole different ballgame. Lots of Leo, then Mikey, Donnie and then Raph. And again, he really never does anything important, he's like a footsoldier to Leo and Donnie most of the time. Shiat, at least Mikey has the Battle Nexus Championship, what does Raph have to his credit? Whooping Karai's ass when Leo accidentally fell on her sword, only then to get picked up by Shredder and have his chord broken?
Yeah, this has always been frustrating for me. Just a simple snippet of him working on a motorbike he found in the junkyard would be enough for me.

First movie= Though Raph had some character focus, I now agree on Leo being more prominent.

Secret of the Ooze: Even though it was Donatello getting the treatment this time, Raph had some focus with interactions with Keno. However, this is overshadowed by the mutagen storyline which puts Donnie's intelligence to use while

Turtles 3: Similar to how you ignore the 2014 movie Warhorse, I do the same with this film. Mikey had the most focus and I wager Leo had a fair share of moments as well.

TMNT: This is debatable because it all depends on how anyone looks at the movie with Leo going into hiding and Raph as the Nightwatcher. Essentially both get good time in the film, but the edge goes to Leo.

2014 movie: Even if the movie is discredited by many (including me), outside April stealing the spotlight, it's very clear Raph had the best chance to shine.

Overall, Raph arguably had two movies where he was a central focus, though he had to share it with two other characters. (Leo and April) Each Turtle did get a chance to shine in a movie, so I won't complain too much there.

1980's cartoon: I did mention Mikey and Donnie being the focus both times in the show respectively. (Mikey for popularity while Donnie for plot) Though Raph might have been popular, it's clear he had some focus from time to time. Examples come from the Mona Lisa story as well as the episode where he believed he was going to die. (Don't remember the names of these episodes)

4Kids: I said it before and I'll say it again, Raph had very little focus and I screwed up when writing my first post on the thread. So I'll say it again: Leo is the focus of this show, whereas Michelangelo has the Battle Nexus as mentioned and Donnie has both Good Genes and Same As It Never Was. He did have meeting Casey first, but that's all I can think besides the aforementioning of the duel.

At this point, debating over the history can go on forever, but there's no question that Raph can be looked at as partially focused on by some, hogging attention by some, or rarely by some. As for me, Raph is a complete mixed bag as he gotten a good chunk of attention in the movies, but suffers in the cartoons. (Again, not a comic reader right now) Although he remains a popular character overall, there are details to the character that can be used to make him better. I'm not expecting something complex, but something new to the table to make Raph unique outside his trademarks.

First movie= Though Raph had some character focus, I now agree on Leo being more prominent.

Secret of the Ooze: Even though it was Donatello getting the treatment this time, Raph had some focus with interactions with Keno. However, this is overshadowed by the mutagen storyline which puts Donnie's intelligence to use while

Turtles 3: Similar to how you ignore the 2014 movie Warhorse, I do the same with this film. Mikey had the most focus and I wager Leo had a fair share of moments as well.

TMNT: This is debatable because it all depends on how anyone looks at the movie with Leo going into hiding and Raph as the Nightwatcher. Essentially both get good time in the film, but the edge goes to Leo.

2014 movie: Even if the movie is discredited by many (including me), outside April stealing the spotlight, it's very clear Raph had the best chance to shine.

Overall, Raph arguably had two movies where he was a central focus, though he had to share it with two other characters. (Leo and April) Each Turtle did get a chance to shine in a movie, so I won't complain too much there.

1980's cartoon: I did mention Mikey and Donnie being the focus both times in the show respectively. (Mikey for popularity while Donnie for plot) Though Raph might have been popular, it's clear he had some focus from time to time. Examples come from the Mona Lisa story as well as the episode where he believed he was going to die. (Don't remember the names of these episodes)

4Kids: I said it before and I'll say it again, Raph had very little focus and I screwed up when writing my first post on the thread. So I'll say it again: Leo is the focus of this show, whereas Michelangelo has the Battle Nexus as mentioned and Donnie has both Good Genes and Same As It Never Was. He did have meeting Casey first, but that's all I can think besides the aforementioning of the duel.

At this point, debating over the history can go on forever, but there's no question that Raph can be looked at as partially focused on by some, hogging attention by some, or rarely by some. As for me, Raph is a complete mixed bag as he gotten a good chunk of attention in the movies, but suffers in the cartoons. (Again, not a comic reader right now) Although he remains a popular character overall, there are details to the character that can be used to make him better. I'm not expecting something complex, but something new to the table to make Raph unique outside his trademarks.

Exactly, the writers can keep the core of Raphael's character with his uncontrolled emotions, but bring out more of a wit and other sides to him like you said.

Anyways, for an actual post: I agree with CyberCubed with the transformation storyline, possibly making it this show's adaptation of the Good Genes arc. Or, they could always go down the route of Raph turning into the Shredder from the Image Comics. Again, so many opportunities with the characters that have potential and in this show, character development isn't fully realized. Hopefully, this mind control story can lead to SOMETHING for Raph in this show with him losing his previously potential storylines and falling into the background.

[Vicky82]

You don't know me in the slightest so don't act like you do. I don't know where you get the idea that just because you think Raph was focused on previuosly in shows and movies that he deserves to have much less screen time in this show. Two wrongs don't make a right. That's also bad story telling. I never said I wanted it to be all Raph all the time. I want balance but it pains me to see a character I care about being neglected and treated so poorly in this show. I'm sure you'd feel similar if Mikey was terribly neglected in the show. What I'm trying to say is just because past shows were unbalanced doesn't mean this one has to be. Again, it's unprofessional to favor one over the other. I didn't have a pproblem per say with Mikey befriending Casey but Casey has always been Raph's best buddy and I just feel that's just another thing they took from him that made him special. I don't expect you to agree with me but hopfully now you get an idea where I come from. Also, when I'm passionate about something, I fight hard for it. I am what I am.



I wasn't acting like I know you.

I know you love Raph and feel your frustration but we all knew months ago that there is a Dark Raph story happening and we all feel this is going to be big storyline as it's going to be loosly based on IDW City Fall story.

So you need to be patient, so after Sunday's episode you need to give a few more episodes or even till the final to see how things play out. If this Dark Raph story turns out not to your expectations then complain all you want and I'll be complaining with you. ;)

Raph's my 2nd favourite character and I just love the interactions between him and Mikey, I feel that they are more closer together than Raph and Leo and even Mikey and Donnie and that's why I feel that Mikey will play a big part in getting Raph back to his normal self.

I would feel the same if Mikey was badly treated (I know some people feel he's being treated badly now because of the ADD/ADHD thing) because he didn't have enough episode focus but if I knew he had a big storyline coming up, then I would stay patient and wait till to see what happens.

With the Casey and Mikey hanging out thing. There could be a lot of reason's why they are hanging out, they could be out looking for Raph, Casey could be taking Mikey out because he need cheering up because over losing Raph, also remember that Mondo Gecko toy description from Amazon that Casey and Mikey are fighting Fishface.

[GoldMutant]

Guys, please stop fighting. I get why both of you are frustrated, both with Raphael and Michelangelo lacking character focus. If you want to fight about it, do it on your own time and with each other. (Then again, I'm a hypocrite for saying that.)

[Vicky82]

Guys, please stop fighting. I get why both of you are frustrated, both with Raphael and Michelangelo lacking character focus. If you want to fight about it, do it on your own time and with each other. (Then again, I'm a hypocrite for saying that.)

I wasn't arguing, I was just replying to his posts. If you feel it is arguing then I'll stop.

[Sabacooza]

I wasn't arguing, I was just replying to his posts. If you feel it is arguing then I'll stop.No, it wasn't arguing that time.:)

Sure, I can wait to complain if I want after it's over but man, that's going to be so hard.:ohwell:

[GoldMutant]

I wasn't arguing, I was just replying to his posts. If you feel it is arguing then I'll stop.

No, it wasn't arguing that time.:)

Sure, I can wait to complain if I want after it's over but man, that's going to be so hard.:ohwell:

If you two wish to continue debating, you can, it just felt like bickering to me. Then again, my mind reacts way too fast without thinking.

To offer my two cents, I do agree with both of you, both Mikey and Raph are not developed well enough yet. I feel Mikey has an edge though, considering he's gotten a few filler episodes dedicated to him as the star. What makes Michelangelo suffer in my opinion on the show is one minute he has some strong development, but loses later with the writers making him idiotic. Not all the time though because of his interactions with Leatherhead or the episode Mikey Gets Shellacne are really strong examples of him.

As for Raph, most of his chances to shine rather limited, but when they get it right, they really get it right, such as Slash and Destroy. Like I said before in the thread, what he needs is a great enemy besides progressing character. Leo had Karai and now has Shredder, Mikey still has Rahzar, and Donnie has Baxter and Tiger Claw (consider the latter equal to all). Since I assume the Turtles get stronger overtime, it weakens the rivalry with Xever and the feud with Slash ended abruptly. With notable stories that can work in Raph's favor, it won't be difficult executing it, it's the impact of it. By making Xever more threatening as well as giving him a really awesome story (outside the upcoming episode), I think fans might be satisfied.

I say if Mikey were to mature throughout the remainder of the show as well as Raph having more parts added to his character in addition to them having strong story episodes, everyone goes home happy. :tsmile: At the same time, I just want great character development and stories for the brothers in the show at some point.

[Sabacooza]

If you two wish to continue debating, you can, it just felt like bickering to me. Then again, my mind reacts way too fast without thinking.

To offer my two cents, I do agree with both of you, both Mikey and Raph are not developed well enough yet. I feel Mikey has an edge though, considering he's gotten a few filler episodes dedicated to him as the star. What makes Michelangelo suffer in my opinion on the show is one minute he has some strong development, but loses later with the writers making him idiotic. Not all the time though because of his interactions with Leatherhead or the episode Mikey Gets Shellacne are really strong examples of him.

As for Raph, most of his chances to shine rather limited, but when they get it right, they really get it right, such as Slash and Destroy. Like I said before in the thread, what he needs is a great enemy besides progressing character. Leo had Karai and now has Shredder, Mikey still has Rahzar, and Donnie has Baxter and Tiger Claw (consider the latter equal to all). Since I assume the Turtles get stronger overtime, it weakens the rivalry with Xever and the feud with Slash ended abruptly. With notable stories that can work in Raph's favor, it won't be difficult executing it, it's the impact of it. By making Xever more threatening as well as giving him a really awesome story (outside the upcoming episode), I think fans might be satisfied.

I say if Mikey were to mature throughout the remainder of the show as well as Raph having more parts added to his character in addition to them having strong story episodes, everyone goes home happy. :tsmile: At the same time, I just want great character development and stories for the brothers in the show at some point.I agree with you agreeing with us.:D

I feel the decline of Raph as a character and possibly Mikey as well started in the later part of season 2. I might be wrong but that was when writers changed. In that case, I think it's time for new writers.

[Groverman62]

Excuse Sabacooza if I can speak up that would be nice.

Look I can understand your anger at Raph not getting enough focus. But my problem is...Its all you ever talk about. Every post is just going on about Raph's lack of focus and while its not unjustified it is annoying

[Sabacooza]

Excuse Sabacooza if I can speak up that would be nice.

Look I can understand your anger at Raph not getting enough focus. But my problem is...Its all you ever talk about. Every post is just going on about Raph's lack of focus and while its not unjustified it is annoyingIf you don't like it, you can skip over my comments, champ.;) Besides, when I talked about anything other than Raph on the forum I was always ignored anyway.

[CyberCubed]

Raph should become a solo superhero like Nightwatcher then.

[Jephael]

Raph should become a solo superhero like Nightwatcher then.

Actually, I prefer him as the Green Defender.

http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/jephael/RaphGreenDef.jpg

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

I do get it, I know he hasn't had a episode focused on him yet in season 3 but if you pay attention, it's going to happen on Sunday and the arc is going to be big and probably going to last till the end of the season. I think it's Mikey that is going to help Raph but yeah it depends on the writers.


Well...that definitely didn't happen.

The newest episode should've answered the question of this thread. And if people still disagree, then I don't know what else the show needs to do, perhaps kill him off and then never mention him again...

It's already pushed him into the back burner (he's the most useless on the team, he has zero importance to the plot, he doesn't have any stand out action beats even though he's supposed to be the Protector of the group...who has Raph ACTUALLY protected since Season 3 began? Even Mikey had to save his shell in the Punk Frog episode); the show burned out a possible Slash/Raph rivalry; he's barely even a friend to Casey now (it's more Don & Casey...as well as April); him (nor Mike) have any kind of Arcs (while Leo, Don, and even Casey & April do); he has to get his Shell saved All The Time now (including, like I mentioned before, Mikey saving his sorry shell in the Frog episode) and all they've done is either turn him into a Plant (which I guess there are Zero side effects from that happening, and yet Leo can be 'even more angry' at Shredder after what happened to him) or not even having an Entire Episode (let alone more than one) to give a Dark Raph arc a shot (yet again, another blunder and another Potentially Great arc shot down before it even had a chance to begin).

And considering how close him and Mikey can get on occasion (like in the Season 2 finale), it was Another Big Blunder to not give Mikey the chance to bring Raph back.

The shows writers are either incredibly daft, they just don't give a crap, or they're utterly ignorant. You had it right there, writers! Season 2...Mikey hugging Raph to calm down his rage...a Call Back which would have worked Excellently, and you Blew It...

[CyberCubed]

Why do some of you sound like you're going through mental trauma? Raphael is being handled fine, the same as he is in every single other incarnation. The 4kids series didn't have many Raph-centric episodes either. In fact I'd arguably say Raph (and to a lesser extent Don) were the two least focused on Turtles in the 4kids series.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Why do some of you sound like you're going through mental trauma? Raphael is being handled fine, the same as he is in every single other incarnation. The 4kids series didn't have many Raph-centric episodes either. In fact I'd arguably say Raph (and to a lesser extent Don) were the two least focused on Turtles in the 4kids series.

Yeah...because it's impossible to do...I don't know...this thing called "Better", right?

If you think Raph is being handled fine, then more power to you Sir.

I gave plenty of reasons in my previous post to back up my statements. And it's simply true that Leo, Don, April, and Casey are given more to do, more arcs, and more on-going stuff than either Raph or Mikey. That's the truth.

And c'mon Cybercubed, you were having a heart attack at the thought that Bebop wouldn't be black. So drop it.



As for what they could have done with it? Well, you could have:

*Raph getting flashes of his family, some of the good times he's had with them, and trying to fight the mind control...showing Raph some of his inner strength

*Show how much his family really need him/depend on him (what it SHOULD BE is that all four depend on each other...as it is now, the family only depends on Don and Leo...and Casey & April...not really on Mikey & Raph. Although, even Mikey helped stopped the invasion, so Mikey has that). Show what Raph means to each Turtle.

*Show how much Mikey misses Raph, needs to play jokes on/goof off with/have fun with.

*Leo reflecting on Raph helping him out when he was rehabbing his body (the Only thing Raph has gotten to do this season)

*Giving Mikey an actual, serious moment where he helps Raph out of it...making Mikey the True Hero of the Episode.

*Raph hurting one of his brothers, and showing in the next couple of episodes that he feels guilty about it, that he doesn't want to be angry anymore, doing everything in his power to be a 'happy go lucky' guy, and ultimately his family realizing that while it's nice that Raph is doing that, the family still needs Raph to at least have PART of that rage.

You can do LOTS, Cybercubed...only those with Little to No Imagination says that there's 'Nothing' you can do with it.

[Sabacooza]

Why do some of you sound like you're going through mental trauma? Raphael is being handled fine, the same as he is in every single other incarnation. The 4kids series didn't have many Raph-centric episodes either. In fact I'd arguably say Raph (and to a lesser extent Don) were the two least focused on Turtles in the 4kids series.So just because that's how it was handled before, that's the formula they should stick to? That way of thinking is reserved for those that have no imagination.

[CyberCubed]

Every single big Raph storyline ever has been, "Raphael losing his temper" and there's only so much you can do with that.

Mirage = Raph loses his temper in the solo issue, and then again in RTNY and City at War.

Movies 1 and 2 = Raphael loses his temper and it gets him beaten up or captured by the Foot

4kids episodes = Raph loses his temper in Casey's debut, the one with the kid and the gangsters in Season 1, the one in Season 3 with the blind lady. Oh and that dumb FF episode where he liked wrestling.

Archie = Raph loses his temper and future Raph loses his temper.

IDW = Raph loses his temper


The original cartoon is the only one that did something different with Raph since he was more of a wisecracker and less anger proned.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Every single big Raph storyline ever has been, "Raphael losing his temper" and there's only so much you can do with that.


Then you don't have much of an Imagination.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

First movie= Though Raph had some character focus, I now agree on Leo being more prominent.

Secret of the Ooze: Even though it was Donatello getting the treatment this time, Raph had some focus with interactions with Keno. However, this is overshadowed by the mutagen storyline which puts Donnie's intelligence to use while

Turtles 3: Similar to how you ignore the 2014 movie Warhorse, I do the same with this film. Mikey had the most focus and I wager Leo had a fair share of moments as well.

1980's cartoon: I did mention Mikey and Donnie being the focus both times in the show respectively. (Mikey for popularity while Donnie for plot) Though Raph might have been popular, it's clear he had some focus from time to time. Examples come from the Mona Lisa story as well as the episode where he believed he was going to die. (Don't remember the names of these episodes)

4Kids: I said it before and I'll say it again, Raph had very little focus and I screwed up when writing my first post on the thread. So I'll say it again: Leo is the focus of this show, whereas Michelangelo has the Battle Nexus as mentioned and Donnie has both Good Genes and Same As It Never Was. He did have meeting Casey first, but that's all I can think besides the aforementioning of the duel.




Not quite. In the 90 film, it was quite clear that Raphael had the main sub-plot, given his talk with Splinter at the beginning, his going up on the roof alone, his meeting Casey (and Casey subsequently saving them in the fire because he saw Raph getting his butt kicked on the roof), and his reconciliation with Leo.

In SotO, Raph again had a lot of the focus, with Keno and their attempt to infiltrate the Foot, as well as his general frustration over Leo and Splinter's refusal to check it out.

In TMNT III, it was primarily Mikey and RAPH, not Leo. Leo barely figured in it, actually, beyond a scene or two at the end where he humiliated Norinaga, and basically dared Walker to try to kill them. Otherwise, it was the Mikey/Mitsu plot, and Raph/Yoshi that had most of the focus, followed by Donnie and his tech-geek side getting some focus.

4Kids also had quite a bit more focus on Raph, especially in the Touch and Go episode, where he was sitting with the old lady while Mikey and Splinter were dealing with that duo. Raph had that episode with Falcon, the racer, and later on, he had a second encounter with him as a kid, apparently. He teamed with Mikey for that one Turtle Titan episode, and I know there are others, I just can't recall off-hand.

As for the OT, Raph had PLENTY of episodes focusing on him. Raphael Meets His Match, Raphael Knocks Em Dead, Raphael Drives Em Wild, and those are just the first ones off the top of my head. The one where he thought he was dying, as you mentioned. Also, though Michelangelo was the "most popular" turtle, Raphael was the second most popular at the time, in spite of Donatello being seen as "more important" to the team. He was more entertaining than Donnie, especially with his snarky, fourth-wall breaking attitude.

[GoldMutant]

I still have small hope of Raphael getting something soon. The episode was okay for what it was, but suffers loss potential, same goes for the Mighty Mutanimals being broken free too soon. Even though it was a set up to Karai being mind-controlled in The Deadly Venom, it'll be what it is, still have a glimmer of hope, but not by much.

[Warhorse]

Has Bebop or Rocksteady even become major foes for Raph yet?

[CyberCubed]

Has Bebop or Rocksteady even become major foes for Raph yet?

What on earth does that have to do with anything? Bebop/Rocksteady hold their own against all the Turtles. They're evenly matched.

[Sabacooza]

Has Bebop or Rocksteady even become major foes for Raph yet?Raph got beat up by Rocksteady and thrown into a van when they were searching for Karai In "The Pig and the Rhino". I don't know if that counts as major foes but it's something I guess.

[GoldMutant]

Has Bebop or Rocksteady even become major foes for Raph yet?

I think like Tiger Claw, both Bebop and Rocksteady are enemies of all the Turtles, but are the most difficult of the henchmutants to defeat compared to Xever and Bradford. Even with Steranko attacking Casey and Raphael in The Pig and the Rhino as well as Zeck attacking April and Donatello doesn't mean they are rivals. It's a possibility, but unlikely right now.

[CyberCubed]

Raph got beat up by Rocksteady and thrown into a van when they were searching for Karai.

Just like Rocksteady knocked them all down by ramming into them. Why are you signaling Raph out?

[Warhorse]

What on earth does that have to do with anything? Bebop/Rocksteady hold their own against all the Turtles. They're evenly matched.

What I mean is, each Turtle seems to have their own set of villains or foes when fighting. Leo with Karai, Shredder, Tigerclaw, Donnie with Baxter, Mikey with Bradshaw, and Raph's main foe was Xever, but I feel he's slowly going to be going on the good side. He did have Spike for an episode, but that was just one episdoe. I'd figure Bebop and Rocksteady were coming in as more one on one foes for each of the Turtles.

[GoldMutant]

What I mean is, each Turtle seems to have their own set of villains or foes when fighting. Leo with Karai, Shredder, Tigerclaw, Donnie with Baxter, Mikey with Bradshaw, and Raph's main foe was Xever, but I feel he's slowly going to be going on the good side. He did have Spike for an episode, but that was just one episdoe. I'd figure Bebop and Rocksteady were coming in as more one on one foes for each of the Turtles.

Don't forget Raph also had the minor villain of Spider Bytes to establish him to the new generation and Spy-Roach for a filler antagonist. In addition, I do feel Tiger Claw is share conjointly with all the Turtles, not just Leo. Season 3 feels like the example of it, as Donnie, Raph, and Mikey have fought him at least once.

They really shouldn't have canned Xever with him getting weaker or ending the feud with Slash too quickly.

[senpai]

Funny story: I recommended this show to a friend and I told him Raph was my fav because he's a badass. And after he watched the first two eps he got back to me and said "I can't wait to see the badass scenes you mentioned!" And I'm sitting here thinking ya okay maybe he's not super badass in this version as I thought he was... Leo overshadows him all the time. I'm realizing this just now. I still really like how the writers have handled the show and characters...still, it would be cool for Raph to be badass instead of the 'angry' one. In any case, I have complete faith in this show!

[Warhorse]

Don't forget Raph also had the minor villain of Spider Bytes to establish him to the new generation and Spy-Roach for a filler antagonist. In addition, I do feel Tiger Claw is share conjointly with all the Turtles, not just Leo. Season 3 feels like the example of it, as Donnie, Raph, and Mikey have fought him at least once.

They really shouldn't have canned Xever with him getting weaker or ending the feud with Slash too quickly.

I don't like them as his main villains because they suck, and don't match. Raphael's primary strenght is, well, his strenght, muscle, raw power! With that, it's more fitting that his main rival has the power to match. It's probably why everyone liked Spike, because that is exactly what he was, and it also got Raph to think beyond his power to beat him. THe best villains are the ones that gets the heroes to go above and beyond their comfort level. It's sad we now have had Mikey survive an alien planet, Leo fight off multiple big baddies like Xever, Bradford and Tigerclaw, and Donnie can go toe to toe with all of the smart villains like Baxter, the Kraang. But Raph, he really doesn't have any villains anymore that makes him a better character, nor has he really gotten himself out of a jam. I mean, they keep painting this picture that he would be the best warrior out of them all, but is only held back by his temper. Haven't they beat this dead horse enough?

[Sabacooza]

I have complete faith in this show!The show is enjoyable but less so if you happen to be a Raph fan. I wish I had your optimism but I lost faith in this show a while back and more so after watching the latest episode which in my opinion turned out to be another dud.

[Warhorse]

The show is enjoyable but less so if you happen to be a Raph fan. I wish I had your optimism but I lost faith in this show a while back and more so after watching the latest episode which in my opinion turned out to be another dud.

Heck, for me, it's not even being a Raph fan. Guess what, I might get a lot of hate, but I do enjoy the Apritello moments, so I was watching the show for those. And, Rob Paulsen talking for Donnie is always a blast. But, when I am sitting down, watching something like A Foot Too Big, I am like, WTF did I just watch? Sorry, but I get turned off of the show real quick because of the stupid, immature and often toilet humor thrown into this.

The last I remember was the Beaver episode, and I just don't like them really crazy, out there episodes. Granted, I watched a few episodes since then online, the one where Bebop and Rocksteady make an appearance, the Hun introduction and the one where they are trying to find Karai, and those were alright. (Leo's reaction in the fun house was hilarious, I'll admit that) But, like I said, when the humor gets too stupid, or the way Raph is handled in many of the episodes, it turns me off of the show.

[senpai]

The show is enjoyable but less so if you happen to be a Raph fan. I wish I had your optimism but I lost faith in this show a while back and more so after watching the latest episode which in my opinion turned out to be another dud.

I totally understand what you're saying. I'm a big Raph fan too. If I wanna get my fix though, I can go read the comics or check out other versions of the show. The 2014 wasn't good, imho, but they portrayed Raph well enough. (That doo-rag tho xD)

Yeah Raph gets no shine in this series.

[GiveMeBackMyRaphXLeo]

this version is kinda Donnie focused and kinda raph spanked. stupid karai even spit right at his face when she got turned into her "much weirder" form.

[Warhorse]

I totally understand what you're saying. I'm a big Raph fan too. If I wanna get my fix though, I can go read the comics or check out other versions of the show. The 2014 wasn't good, imho, but they portrayed Raph well enough. (That doo-rag tho xD)

Yeah Raph gets no shine in this series.

Go figure, I actually liked the full head bandana on him. Now if they could have made them all more like Leo's overall look, not so cumbersome, and lose all of the BS (Mikey could keep the necklace, Leo his I Love NY button and Donnie his night vision goggles on his head) but everything else is gone, we might have something.

[IndigoErth]

and kinda raph spanked.
http://i.imgur.com/SLbDm9W.gif

Well no wonder he's a grump.

[Foombamaroom]

God, I wouldn't even mind the Donnie overlap if his arcs were actually good. Leo's arcs ARE good, so it's a little harder to complain about him getting focus, as his episodes usually are the best. However, Raph could easily have better episodes, as Slash and Destroy proved that Raph can hold his own episode and make it goo. And for the love of God, please show consistency with Raph's anger. Yes, he's always the hot-head, but he's just so damn irrational in his focused episodes. If you're going to do that, make him irrational all the time, or stop making him irrational for his focused episodes and just keep him as a hot-head. I'd say I hope that Raph gets the focus when they introduce Dregg (That's confirmed. Dregg WILL be coming to TMNT 2012), but I feel like they're going to give that villain to Mikey or Donnie. I'm praying that if they introduce Bishop, he becomes Raph's main villain, kind of like how Shredder is to Leo.

[Warhorse]

God, I wouldn't even mind the Donnie overlap if his arcs were actually good. Leo's arcs ARE good, so it's a little harder to complain about him getting focus, as his episodes usually are the best. However, Raph could easily have better episodes, as Slash and Destroy proved that Raph can hold his own episode and make it goo. And for the love of God, please show consistency with Raph's anger. Yes, he's always the hot-head, but he's just so damn irrational in his focused episodes. If you're going to do that, make him irrational all the time, or stop making him irrational for his focused episodes and just keep him as a hot-head. I'd say I hope that Raph gets the focus when they introduce Dregg (That's confirmed. Dregg WILL be coming to TMNT 2012), but I feel like they're going to give that villain to Mikey or Donnie. I'm praying that if they introduce Bishop, he becomes Raph's main villain, kind of like how Shredder is to Leo.

I'm personally just plain annoyed that they are bringing on yet another Fred Wolf character when I wished they would just devote that time and passion on characters they already have established. Funny enough, their best villain outside of Shredder in my eyes is their own original, Tigerclaw.

[Sabacooza]

I'm personally just plain annoyed that they are bringing on yet another Fred Wolf character when I wished they would just devote that time and passion on characters they already have established. Funny enough, their best villain outside of Shredder in my eyes is their own original, Tigerclaw.Remember, they need to sell new toys. The show is one big toy commercial.

[Warhorse]

Remember, they need to sell new toys. The show is one big toy commercial.

Then why not create something new with the Turtles themselves? I still would love to see maybe a Nick version of Nightwatcher. That should be a big seller.

[Sabacooza]

Then why not create something new with the Turtles themselves? I still would love to see maybe a Nick version of Nightwatcher. That should be a big seller.Do turtle variants really sell as good as brand new characters? Probably not but I get what you're saying.

I wouldn't mind seeing something equivalent to the Nightwatcher or just give him a whole episode to himself where he goes on a side mission with Slash. Hey, whatever gives Raph more screen time. I'm all for it.

[Warhorse]

Do turtle variants really sell as good as brand new characters? Probably not but I get what you're saying.

I wouldn't mind seeing something equivalent to the Nightwatcher or just give him a whole episode to himself where he goes on a side mission with Slash. Hey, whatever gives Raph more screen time. I'm all for it.

I don't know about other characters being sold more than other variants of the Turtles. I myself, when collecting Turtle toys, back in the day, I was pretty narrow minded and only got the Raph and Mikey toys, since they were my faves back then (now, over the years, it's Raph and Leo) I think I got the Turtle van, and I know I went after all of the horses from TMNT 3, but that was it.

Sad thing is, I don't even know if there is any reliable data to see which are the hottest toys flying off the shelves. I guess the best way would be to step into a toy store and see what's missing and what's still there in terms of action figures.

[Sabacooza]

I don't know about other characters being sold more than other variants of the Turtles. I myself, when collecting Turtle toys, back in the day, I was pretty narrow minded and only got the Raph and Mikey toys, since they were my faves back then (now, over the years, it's Raph and Leo) I think I got the Turtle van, and I know I went after all of the horses from TMNT 3, but that was it.

Sad thing is, I don't even know if there is any reliable data to see which are the hottest toys flying off the shelves. I guess the best way would be to step into a toy store and see what's missing and what's still there in terms of action figures.I went to a Toys R Us last weekend and all they had were all different versions of the TMNT, no villains or anything. I guess those are the ones that sell. I walked away with the oversized Raph pez dispencer and a Raph hat so I was happy.

[ssjup81]

I have some TMNT toys finally. For my birthday while in the hospital, my froends gave me tge four Nick turtles because they knew I watched the show. lol

[Warhorse]

I have some TMNT toys finally. For my birthday while in the hospital, my froends gave me tge four Nick turtles because they knew I watched the show. lol

Yeah, I remember you got really sick a while back! Is everything alright with you now?

[MCLeo28]

I don't like them as his main villains because they suck, and don't match. Raphael's primary strenght is, well, his strenght, muscle, raw power! With that, it's more fitting that his main rival has the power to match. It's probably why everyone liked Spike, because that is exactly what he was, and it also got Raph to think beyond his power to beat him. THe best villains are the ones that gets the heroes to go above and beyond their comfort level. It's sad we now have had Mikey survive an alien planet, Leo fight off multiple big baddies like Xever, Bradford and Tigerclaw, and Donnie can go toe to toe with all of the smart villains like Baxter, the Kraang. But Raph, he really doesn't have any villains anymore that makes him a better character, nor has he really gotten himself out of a jam. I mean, they keep painting this picture that he would be the best warrior out of them all, but is only held back by his temper. Haven't they beat this dead horse enough?

Except Leo did that with sheer will-power. Under normal circumstances, he would not be capable of doing that.

What you listed for Donnie is easily what any Turtle should be able to do. Even Pigeon Pete can fend off Baxter.

Raphael still has Tiger Claw and they do have a small rivalry as shown in Wrath of Tiger Claw and the recent Casey episode featuring Hun as well as Rocksteady as he clashed with Rocksteady multiple times in the Noxious Avenger and was the first target of Rocksteady's wrath.

[Warhorse]

Except Leo did that with sheer will-power. Under normal circumstances, he would not be capable of doing that.

What you listed for Donnie is easily what any Turtle should be able to do. Even Pigeon Pete can fend off Baxter.

Raphael still has Tiger Claw and they do have a small rivalry as shown in Wrath of Tiger Claw and the recent Casey episode featuring Hun as well as Rocksteady as he clashed with Rocksteady multiple times in the Noxious Avenger and was the first target of Rocksteady's wrath.

Boy, we are really grasping at straws here.

So, I heard the new episode seemed to showcase how Casey seems to hang out with everyone more than the one Turtle he is supposed to be hanging out with. Adds more fuel to that fire that it does feel like Raphael is being spat on by those in charge of the show. I'm amazed they haven't decided to just kill him off, since he seems to be such a pain to write decently.

[JTH]

Boy, we are really grasping at straws here.

So, I heard the new episode seemed to showcase how Casey seems to hang out with everyone more than the one Turtle he is supposed to be hanging out with. Adds more fuel to that fire that it does feel like Raphael is being spat on by those in charge of the show. I'm amazed they haven't decided to just kill him off, since he seems to be such a pain to write decently.
Well, you're right about one thing.

You really are grasping at straws here...

[Coola Yagami]

Wait... where did this Lord Dregg confirmation come from...?

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Well, you're right about one thing.

You really are grasping at straws here...


Well, she has a point. Casey has more dealings with Donatello than Raph. And now an episode that was a mainly 'Casey & Mikey' episode. And Casey & Donatello had an episode together earlier this season as well.

And yet no episode where it's the focus/majority of Mikey & Raph joining together/helping each other out in order to do something/fight somebody.

And yet no episode where it's the focus/majority of Casey & Raph joining together/helping each other out to do something/fight somebody...well, I guess you could Maybe say the first time they met.

And yet no episode where it's the focus/majority of Donnie & Raph joining together to do something/fight somebody.

So, I'm not sure what you mean by 'grasping at straws'.

[Ninturtle]

Wait... where did this Lord Dregg confirmation come from...?

Amazon.com

[Sabacooza]

Well, she has a point. Casey has more dealings with Donatello than Raph. And now an episode that was a mainly 'Casey & Mikey' episode. And Casey & Donatello had an episode together earlier this season as well.

And yet no episode where it's the focus/majority of Mikey & Raph joining together/helping each other out in order to do something/fight somebody.

And yet no episode where it's the focus/majority of Casey & Raph joining together/helping each other out to do something/fight somebody...well, I guess you could Maybe say the first time they met.

And yet no episode where it's the focus/majority of Donnie & Raph joining together to do something/fight somebody.

So, I'm not sure what you mean by 'grasping at straws'.It's like talking to a brick wall. If people aren't Raph fans they'll never notice a thing.

[JTH]

It's kind of a lost cause I suppose because if you're not a Raph fan, you won't notice any of this lack of attention to the character. You might as well be talking to a brick wall.

As I have said in the past, I am a Raph fan. It's not that I don't notice it, it's that I don't think it's a big deal. Raph is focused on in tons of other series'.

So he's not in this one, so what? It isn't the end of the world to me.

I'm not going to go on a crusade to slay the writers of a show because a character I like isn't focused on as much as the others.

And I'm certainly not going to say that should just kill him since they think he's so unimportant. Especially since we just had Donnie killed in the comics. What message is that trying to send when someone says things like that?

It comes off as being selfish if I say my character is the only one that matters and damn all the writers because you can't write my character the way I want him written. That's very selfish. And all the ranting Raph fans won't change my opinion on that. It's selfish, simple as that.

[Mona_Lisa]

Wait... where did this Lord Dregg confirmation come from...?

Amazon.com

O no, I hate that guy... Maybe they can redo him better.:ohwell:

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

And I'm certainly not going to say that should just kill him since they think he's so unimportant. Especially since we just had Donnie killed in the comics. What message is that trying to send when someone says things like that?

It comes off as being selfish if I say my character is the only one that matters and damn all the writers because you can't write my character the way I want him written. That's very selfish. And all the ranting Raph fans won't change my opinion on that. It's selfish, simple as that.

I'd rather have him die...perhaps in a meaningful way or a self-sacrifice way (while saving Mikey, or such), than live on as an invisible & useless nobody (which is what he has become, in MY opinion).

If wanting a character I enjoy (or is a favorite) to be better written, to be used more, to be actually useful, or to have some kind of importance to the team (even if that means in death) is me being selfish...then yeah, I agree with you. I am selfish. Oh well.

Also, Raph wasn't focused in the 2003 cartoon. Honestly, he probably had the least amount of episodes to himself. The others had more accolades & focus (it was known by many as the Leo show; Mikey won the Battle Nexus, had his super hero friends, and more; and Donnie got what many argue as the best episode aka Same As It Never Was, got turned into a monster/creature, and etc.). But At Least Raph was a badass who kicked some ass on that show. This Raph has done None of that during this entire season of Season 3.

And the original cartoon was more Mikey's and Don's show than anybody's. Don saved the day 85% of the time with his brain & inventions, and Mikey was the most popular...so much that he was the one picked for that 'All Star Cartoons Against Drugs' show.

[Sabacooza]

As I have said in the past, I am a Raph fan. It's not that I don't notice it, it's that I don't think it's a big deal. Raph is focused on in tons of other series'.

So he's not in this one, so what? It isn't the end of the world to me.

I'm not going to go on a crusade to slay the writers of a show because a character I like isn't focused on as much as the others.

And I'm certainly not going to say that should just kill him since they think he's so unimportant. Especially since we just had Donnie killed in the comics. What message is that trying to send when someone says things like that?

It comes off as being selfish if I say my character is the only one that matters and damn all the writers because you can't write my character the way I want him written. That's very selfish. And all the ranting Raph fans won't change my opinion on that. It's selfish, simple as that.Man, I wish I could live in your delusional world where you think Raph gets loads of screen time in every TMNT series that came before.

In case you haven't been paying attention, I've been preaching for equality in the show but I guess that goes in one ear and registers as being selfish that my favorite character is not being represented fairly. :roll: Go figure. What's wrong with holding these writers to a higher standard? Why settle for less?

When did I advocate he be killed off but since you brought it up, what would it matter if they did? They made him utterly useless in this show. I always thought that each one should have an important part to play in the group but not so with this show.

Man, I'd really like to know where you got your rose tinted glasses.

[GoldMutant]

I really wish Raphael can finally get something good, which is unlikely.

Raph was so out of character in that episode too before the 5 to 6 minutes of Dark Raphael. I honestly wish for something. :(

[Sabacooza]

I really wish Raphael can finally get something good, which is unlikely.

Raph was so out of character in that episode too before the 5 to 6 minutes of Dark Raphael. I honestly wish for something. :(I know. It's like these writers just don't care but I guess according to some people that if we want better for this character, that's considered being selfish. :roll:

[Jester]

It's like talking to a brick wall. If people aren't Raph fans they'll never notice a thing.
<---Raph fan who has little problem with his characterization.

[Cure]

<---Raph fan who has little problem with his characterization.

Aren't generalizations great?

[Sabacooza]

<---Raph fan who has little problem with his characterization.I have no problem with his characterization but he has very little importance to the series, is the butt of the jokes, gets captured all the time, is weak etc. That's what I don't like. You don't see them doing that to any of the others really.

[GoldMutant]

I know. It's like these writers just don't care but I guess according to some people that if we want better for this character, that's considered being selfish. :roll:

Sabacooza, I can admit Raphael has had a considerable amount of time in the spotlight in the past. Then again, with the points I make with the franchise history, I'll probably screw up details. (my own mistakes) I'd love to see everyone mature and develop. Not asking for something straight out of the DC animated universe, but great writing nonetheless.

The thing I wish is for equal development, not for Raph to dominate. It worked so well leading up to The Gauntlet where everyone got some development. Both seasons 1 and 2 gave Raph some importance, but more towards the first season, but Slash and Destroy and The Good, the Bad, and Casey Jones were just as excellent. It all comes to the writers, like you've mentioned in the past.

This might sound weird with season 3, but I wish Raph remained a plant/normal turtle at least until The Croaking. It would give more emotional value to the characters as Donnie tries to bring him back. Then, bring him back in that episode to kick major butt.

I also have two more ideas for the remainder of the Northampton arc for Raph, if you are interested.

[oldmanwinters]

I really like the short story from the New Animated Adventures comic where Splinter challenges him to take up knitting.

[Sabacooza]

The thing I wish is for equal development, not for Raph to dominate. That's what I'm saying but whenever I become passionate about Raph it gets misconstrued as being selfish which is so irritating.

I also have two more ideas for the remainder of the Northampton arc for Raph, if you are interested.Sure, shoot.

[GoldMutant]

That's what I'm saying but whenever I become passionate about Raph it gets misconstrued as being selfish which is so irritating.

Sure, shoot.

Understandable, we all misinterpret. It's whatever our minds think based on the actions of others, I can't control that.

Anyways, from what I saw, Raph was the only one who didn't have an episode in the Northampton arc compared to everyone else. So, I was thinking one of the episodes should revolve around him, with that being the In Dreams episode. I mentioned this before but here's how I'd do it:

It begins following the aftermath of the Croaking, about a few days later. The heroes are training around sunset. Unlike before though, Raphael is still filled with anger from the transformation and loses control during training. Ordered by Leonardo to sit out and return to the house, he proceeds to hit the hay. Raph is contemplating his importance to the team due to everyone else getting an accomplishment: Leo taking the Foot Clan on his own, Donatello creating the retromutagen, and Michelangelo braving Dimension X. This is where the Dream Beavers come into play, toying with Raphael's history, similar to that of the Rat King to Splinter.
Each of the four Dream Beavers show Raph something involving his history and future, which include the following:
1. His origins with the lightning scar.
2. His family calling him out on mistakes.
3. His feuds with Slash and Fishface.
These dreams are manipulated to show Raph as weak.
It all leads up to the final dream, which could be Raph's own future: him turning into the Shredder, being the one who kills him but dishonorably. He's then forced to battle his own worst enemy: himself.
Meanwhile, the subplot is waking Raph up and then entering his mind to save him. What results is a massive fight where Raph still believes he's useless to helping the team if they have to help him. The team is overwhelmed though with everyone motivating him that he is worth it. The strength results in him defeating all the beings, releasing everyone.

It still needs improvement, but it could be an episode many a fan of the hothead could desire. Also, this could be played right into the Vision Quest episode.

Idea #2: If Vision Quest was a two-parter, have Raphael fight Slash (Leo gets Karai, Mikey gets Leatherhead, and Donnie vs. Mutagen Man) for an emotional clash before the return. It could play that Raph still abandoned New York instead of assisting Slash in the long run. (connects to the picture of Spike) Again, improvements are required.

Thoughts?

[Sabacooza]

Understandable, we all misinterpret. It's whatever our minds think based on the actions of others, I can't control that.

Anyways, from what I saw, Raph was the only one who didn't have an episode in the Northampton arc compared to everyone else. So, I was thinking one of the episodes should revolve around him, with that being the In Dreams episode. I mentioned this before but here's how I'd do it:

It begins following the aftermath of the Croaking, about a few days later. The heroes are training around sunset. Unlike before though, Raphael is still filled with anger from the transformation and loses control during training. Ordered by Leonardo to sit out and return to the house, he proceeds to hit the hay. Raph is contemplating his importance to the team due to everyone else getting an accomplishment: Leo taking the Foot Clan on his own, Donatello creating the retromutagen, and Michelangelo braving Dimension X. This is where the Dream Beavers come into play, toying with Raphael's history, similar to that of the Rat King to Splinter.
Each of the four Dream Beavers show Raph something involving his history and future, which include the following:
1. His origins with the lightning scar.
2. His family calling him out on mistakes.
3. His feuds with Slash and Fishface.
These dreams are manipulated to show Raph as weak.
It all leads up to the final dream, which could be Raph's own future: him turning into the Shredder, being the one who kills him but dishonorably. He's then forced to battle his own worst enemy: himself.
Meanwhile, the subplot is waking Raph up and then entering his mind to save him. What results is a massive fight where Raph still believes he's useless to helping the team if they have to help him. The team is overwhelmed though with everyone motivating him that he is worth it. The strength results in him defeating all the beings, releasing everyone.

It still needs improvement, but it could be an episode many a fan of the hothead could desire. Also, this could be played right into the Vision Quest episode.

Idea #2: If Vision Quest was a two-parter, have Raphael fight Slash (Leo gets Karai, Mikey gets Leatherhead, and Donnie vs. Mutagen Man) for an emotional clash before the return. It could play that Raph still abandoned New York instead of assisting Slash in the long run. (connects to the picture of Spike) Again, improvements are required.

Thoughts?See, now that right there is what I would've liked to see. :D It's brilliant and all it took was some thought and a bit of tender love and care. Thanks for cheering me up.:)

[GoldMutant]

See, now that right there is what I would've liked to see. :D It's brilliant and all it took was some thought and a bit of tender love and care. Thanks for cheering me up.:)

Hey man, glad to be of help. :)

Would you have liked this as an actual episode? It still needs work, but I'm trying to find ways to redo the Northampton storyline to make it more story-oriented with equality.

[Sabacooza]

Hey man, glad to be of help. :)

Would you have liked this as an actual episode? It still needs work, but I'm trying to find ways to redo the Northampton storyline to make it more story-oriented with equality.For sure. This would've made a great episode.

[GoldMutant]

For sure. This would've made a great episode.

Guess I'm dabbling more into story writing as I attempt to try and write a season involving time travel for the Turtles. Glad to be of service. :)

I already know how we can fix the Northampton arc: Make everyone equal with an episode. It'll tie to a point I want to address.

Within the Woods: Leo (stress and fear about New York causes the team to lose against Creep, Leo questions himself if he can be a hero, Raph is out for a few episodes)
A Foot too Big: Donnie (rework the ending while also focusing on the love triangle with Donnie feeling April's perspective. The difference is Bigfoot is the villain)
Buried Secrets: April (tie more to her origins while giving more clues on the Kraang)
The Croaking: Mikey (write him as becoming more mature and realize his goofball antics have consequences. Raph returns in this episode)
In Dreams: Raph (the aforementioned plot above)
Race with the Demon: Casey (tells us more of his origins and make it a more personal conflict)
Eyes of the Chimera: Everyone (two plots- Leo and April overcoming their struggles while the others attempt to escape the Chimera. Can be removed if needed) OR
Within the Woods as two parts (addresses Leo's condition as Tales of Leo)
Vision Quest: Two-parter (the aforementioned emotional fights in addition to fighting Kraang and Foot Bots, then second part has the fights seen)
Return to New York
Battle for New York 1-2
*Mighty Mutanimals origin episode

You can remove Eyes of the Chimera if not needed. See, if this was done, everyone would get equal development, all the plots get addressed, and we get funny and emotional moments. All the characters get equal development needed out of this arc and it makes the Kraang's defeat much more satisfying. Even if it drags on for half the season, this would make the season a lot more stronger I wager. Though we'd get at least twelve episodes with Vision Quest being two parts, Return to New York or Within the Woods could be two parts too or we get the origin episode needed. Everyone wins. :)

[Sabacooza]

Guess I'm dabbling more into story writing as I attempt to try and write a season involving time travel for the Turtles. Glad to be of service. :)

I already know how we can fix the Northampton arc: Make everyone equal with an episode. It'll tie to a point I want to address.

Within the Woods: Leo (stress and fear about New York causes the team to lose against Creep, Leo questions himself if he can be a hero, Raph is out for a few episodes)
A Foot too Big: Donnie (rework the ending while also focusing on the love triangle with Donnie feeling April's perspective. The difference is Bigfoot is the villain)
Buried Secrets: April (tie more to her origins while giving more clues on the Kraang)
The Croaking: Mikey (write him as becoming more mature and realize his goofball antics have consequences. Raph returns in this episode)
In Dreams: Raph (the aforementioned plot above)
Race with the Demon: Casey (tells us more of his origins and make it a more personal conflict)
Eyes of the Chimera: Everyone (two plots- Leo and April overcoming their struggles while the others attempt to escape the Chimera. Can be removed if needed) OR
Within the Woods as two parts (addresses Leo's condition as Tales of Leo)
Vision Quest: Two-parter (the aforementioned emotional fights in addition to fighting Kraang and Foot Bots, then second part has the fights seen)
Return to New York
Battle for New York 1-2
*Mighty Mutanimals origin episode

You can remove Eyes of the Chimera if not needed. See, if this was done, everyone would get equal development, all the plots get addressed, and we get funny and emotional moments. All the characters get equal development needed out of this arc and it makes the Kraang's defeat much more satisfying. Even if it drags on for half the season, this would make the season a lot more stronger I wager. Though we'd get at least twelve episodes with Vision Quest being two parts, Return to New York or Within the Woods could be two parts too or we get the origin episode needed. Everyone wins. :)I'm not totally sold on Raph being completely absent for several episodes but everything else I could live with. You should be writing the show.

If you want to run other ideas by me, you can PM me.

[GoldMutant]

I'm not totally sold on Raph being completely absent for several episodes but everything else I could live with. You should be writing the show.

If you want to run other ideas by me, you can PM me.

I'd only have Raph be absent if it leads to emotional development for the group and because the ending of Within the Woods of a quick recovery was a slap to the face of a potential development. It would be a change of pace to the series if a Turtle was absent for a little bit and he'd still have small appearances like Karai to keep him appearing, but otherwise I'd completely understand.

Gotcha on the PM, don't want to wreck this thread.

[Sabacooza]

I'd only have Raph be absent if it leads to emotional development for the group and because the ending of Within the Woods of a quick recovery was a slap to the face of a potential development. It would be a change of pace to the series if a Turtle was absent for a little bit and he'd still have small appearances like Karai to keep him appearing, but otherwise I'd completely understand.

Gotcha on the PM, don't want to wreck this thread.Okay, I see your point about the whole plant thing but doing to Raph what they did to Karai would probably drive me bonkers. She was absent for at least 18 episodes until she showed up again. Poor Karai. At least Raph hasn't fared as poorly as her.

[GoldMutant]

Okay, I see your point about the whole plant thing but doing to Raph what they did to Karai would probably drive me bonkers. She was absent for at least 18 episodes until she showed up again. Poor Karai. At least Raph hasn't fared as poorly as her.

It would drive me up the wall too if a favorite character of mine suffered in that regard. Karai I wish wasn't absent too much as she is important with the conflict of Shredder and Splinter. If anything, she's suffered worse than Raph to me. At least Raphael has gotten decent screentime even if it can be flawed. Karai on the other hand has her plot make progress, then goes back to step one, which becomes repetitious after awhile. Unless The Deadly Venom does something great for her compared to Clash of the Mutanimals, it's the only way she can be fixed.

Fans of Karai I think are in a much more unhappy position my friend. Even though Michelangelo and Raphael suffer, they at least have something added to their resume on the show. With Karai's story a focal point on the show and not being addressed, it's puzzled me to no end.

Equality and excellent storytelling are needed to balance these characters we love and soon.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

but doing to Raph what they did to Karai would probably drive me bonkers. She was absent for at least 18 episodes until she showed up again. Poor Karai. At least Raph hasn't fared as poorly as her.

He might as well have been absent for that long. It's pretty much the same thing. Because he hasn't done a single thing worth a crap during that time period.

He gets beaten up, brains switched with a Kraang, turned into a plant, arcs dropped (or not even started) before they begin, friends have been absent from him or haven't given him the time of day (Slash is in his own world with his own group; Casey is either in between Donny & April or now doing stuff with Mikey), gets his butt saved by Mikey (like in The Croaking) or Leo (like in the last episode), gets mind controlled by Shredder only to be 'put down/made fun of' in order "snap" out of it & then he's fine & dandy with no side effects by the next episode (same with no side effects after being turned into a plant & then being turned back to normal with a snap of a finger), and doesn't kick ass/take names/hold his own (even Mikey's been more of a badass recently than Raph, for example during their time in Dimension X or even in the episode The Croaking).

Uh...Yay, I guess? :roll:

[Sabacooza]

He might as well have been absent for that long. It's pretty much the same thing. Because he hasn't done a single thing worth a crap during that time period.

He gets beaten up, brains switched with a Kraang, turned into a plant, arcs dropped (or not even started) before they begin, friends have been absent from him or haven't given him the time of day (Slash is in his own world with his own group; Casey is either in between Donny & April or now doing stuff with Mikey), gets his butt saved by Mikey (like in The Croaking) or Leo (like in the last episode), gets mind controlled by Shredder only to be 'put down/made fun of' in order "snap" out of it & then he's fine & dandy with no side effects by the next episode (same with no side effects after being turned into a plant & then being turned back to normal with a snap of a finger), and doesn't kick ass/take names/hold his own (even Mikey's been more of a badass recently than Raph, for example during their time in Dimension X or even in the episode The Croaking).

Uh...Yay, I guess? :roll:I know it's frustrating but what can be done besides not watching the show or send Nick a message in mass so that maybe it can be changed. Too many people don't care about balance and are perfectly fine getting half assed stories and a lack of character development. Well, if you're anyone other than Raph, you're making out pretty good. I just don't like him being left behind and being disrespected so much.

[darthwahl56]

It's like talking to a brick wall. If people aren't Raph fans they'll never notice a thing.

I am a Team Mikey fan. I do believe though that Raphael has not been handled as great as I'd hoped for the series. He seems to be put into the damsel in distress situation way too easy. I want this dude to rebel a bit more. Sure he gets mad, but then something/someone else just says he's wrong and then that is it, the end of it. Raph is stifled and just settled as being the angry guy who needs to calm down. Wrong!!

Like on the creeper episode him being changed into a plant creature. They could have had him show up to save the day and say, " I am nobody's pet" I hated that part on the show. Really?! he was made into the monster's pet?!!

[Sabacooza]

I am a Team Mikey fan. I do believe though that Raphael has not been handled as great as I'd hoped for the series. He seems to be put into the damsel in distress situation way too easy. I want this dude to rebel a bit more. Sure he gets mad, but then something/someone else just says he's wrong and then that is it, the end of it. Raph is stifled and just settled as being the angry guy who needs to calm down. Wrong!!

Like on the creeper episode him being changed into a plant creature. They could have had him show up to save the day and say, " I am nobody's pet" I hated that part on the show. Really?! he was made into the monster's pet?!!See, you're a Mikey fan and even you get it. :thumbsup: So, I guess I contradict myself.:ohwell:

[Jephael]

1. His origins with the lightning scar.

OMG, I never thought of it before... he's a Horcrux!!!

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

And I'm certainly not going to say that should just kill him since they think he's so unimportant. Especially since we just had Donnie killed in the comics. What message is that trying to send when someone says things like that?

What Message?

"Live For Nothing, Or Die For Something."

And again, I'd be perfectly fine with Raph dying for Something (for example, saving Mikey) than living for Nothing. Because that's all he has right now. Nothing. They took away his potential arcs and stories. They took away his buddy Casey (he's more Donnie's rival/companion). They took away his Pet Spike (let alone his potential rivalry with Slash).

So yes, I still stand by what I said in the past. Do something with him, or just kill him off as a Hero instead of just having him live like a Damsel in Distress.

[Warhorse]

It would drive me up the wall too if a favorite character of mine suffered in that regard. Karai I wish wasn't absent too much as she is important with the conflict of Shredder and Splinter. If anything, she's suffered worse than Raph to me. At least Raphael has gotten decent screentime even if it can be flawed. Karai on the other hand has her plot make progress, then goes back to step one, which becomes repetitious after awhile. Unless The Deadly Venom does something great for her compared to Clash of the Mutanimals, it's the only way she can be fixed.

Fans of Karai I think are in a much more unhappy position my friend. Even though Michelangelo and Raphael suffer, they at least have something added to their resume on the show. With Karai's story a focal point on the show and not being addressed, it's puzzled me to no end.

Equality and excellent storytelling are needed to balance these characters we love and soon.
Yeah, what has happened with Karai and Irma just adds more fuel to the fire of why I started to really dislike the show so fast. Two of my favorite characters besides Raph, completely screwed over. Third season, my favorite, Raph completely screwed over, and my second favorite Turtle, Leo, I just can't get into Seth Green's voice over for him. He was OK here and there, but the last episode I saw, The Dark Raph one, yeah, I just don't like Seth Green as Leo. Then, the other Turtles, Mikey is a complete idiot 95% of the time, and Donnie, I have been finding my self loathing because he takes up so many of the story arcs. I would never imagine in a million years that I would actually start to dislike one of the TMNT. So, it's not just Raph, but I just feel all of the Turtles are not nearly a good as they were the first season and first half of the second season.

[pennydreadful]

I'm not happy with Karai's treatment and I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that we won't see her at all in Season 4; they'll probably end up just never fully curing her with retro-mutagen and sending her off-screen to join the Mutanimals or going off to "find herself" or something.

[GoldMutant]

Yeah, what has happened with Karai and Irma just adds more fuel to the fire of why I started to really dislike the show so fast. Two of my favorite characters besides Raph, completely screwed over. Third season, my favorite, Raph completely screwed over, and my second favorite Turtle, Leo, I just can't get into Seth Green's voice over for him. He was OK here and there, but the last episode I saw, The Dark Raph one, yeah, I just don't like Seth Green as Leo. Then, the other Turtles, Mikey is a complete idiot 95% of the time, and Donnie, I have been finding my self loathing because he takes up so many of the story arcs. I would never imagine in a million years that I would actually start to dislike one of the TMNT. So, it's not just Raph, but I just feel all of the Turtles are not nearly a good as they were the first season and first half of the second season.

I can't vouch for Irma as I'm not too familiar with the Fred Wolf show too well. It was a clever twist (GILBERT GOTTFRIED IS AMAZING) but it still should be an issue addressed in the future. I can see she's a popular character and the producers smack in fans' faces with the droids. Karai I loathe more for her treatment by now, the plots with her are extremely repetitious and one-dimensional. Considering she's a very important of the lore, I can't stand it. It's a storyline that had potential but isn't being fully explored anymore.

Seth I'm still unsure on as Leo's voice. I certainly think he's improved to fit an older Leonardo, but he still doesn't do it for me. I blame it more on lazy writing as he's trying his hardest, but it still leaves a lot to be desired. Question here: How was it this episode that made you hate Green's voice? (It's reasonable but I'm curious)

As for the characters, it's down to personal preferences. You will dislike and eventually hate the characters and others will still like them. That's something I can never change, it's the human mind to either be a sheep and follow the shepherd or choose their own likes and dislikes. Michelangelo gets just as little development as Raphael as a few others have commented on in the past on this thread.

The problem is the writing overall, no question. It's either a repetitious and predictable plotline or an episode with potential that is ultimately never realized in the end. (Mutagen Man really comes to mind here) I love these voice actors and their doing their best, but it's poor writing and an incoherent narrative being the conflict that'll damage the show I wager.

[Sabacooza]

I can't vouch for Irma as I'm not too familiar with the Fred Wolf show too well. It was a clever twist (GILBERT GOTTFRIED IS AMAZING) but it still should be an issue addressed in the future. I can see she's a popular character and the producers smack in fans' faces with the droids. Karai I loathe more for her treatment by now, the plots with her are extremely repetitious and one-dimensional. Considering she's a very important of the lore, I can't stand it. It's a storyline that had potential but isn't being fully explored anymore.

Seth I'm still unsure on as Leo's voice. I certainly think he's improved to fit an older Leonardo, but he still doesn't do it for me. I blame it more on lazy writing as he's trying his hardest, but it still leaves a lot to be desired. Question here: How was it this episode that made you hate Green's voice? (It's reasonable but I'm curious)

As for the characters, it's down to personal preferences. You will dislike and eventually hate the characters and others will still like them. That's something I can never change, it's the human mind to either be a sheep and follow the shepherd or choose their own likes and dislikes. Michelangelo gets just as little development as Raphael as a few others have commented on in the past on this thread.

The problem is the writing overall, no question. It's either a repetitious and predictable plotline or an episode with potential that is ultimately never realized in the end. (Mutagen Man really comes to mind here) I love these voice actors and their doing their best, but it's poor writing and an incoherent narrative being the conflict that'll damage the show I wager.I get the feeling the writers are just throwing **** at the wall and hoping something sticks at this point. Sorry to be so blunt but I'm probably not too far off. I hope they can turn it around for season 4 because I'd really like to watch it again but at it's current state, no thanks.

[Luckyday]

I'm not happy with Karai's treatment and I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that we won't see her at all in Season 4; they'll probably end up just never fully curing her with retro-mutagen and sending her off-screen to join the Mutanimals or going off to "find herself" or something.

Oh man, I have such a bad feeling about Karai. My gut is telling me that how exactly it's going to go right down to the final scene.

I know that it might not be Ciro's fault but I remember in a interview that he said somewhat along the lines that the Karai's character arc was distracting, and bunch of people jump on me and calling me crazy.

Well was I right? Didn't Karai became less of a character and more of a plot device that the writers are trying to get rid of?

[senpai]

They wouldn't do that to Karai. She'll be back and she'll be reverted somehow. Donnie is working hard to find a cure.

[GoldMutant]

I get the feeling the writers are just throwing **** at the wall and hoping something sticks at this point. Sorry to be so blunt but I'm probably not too far off. I hope they can turn it around for season 4 because I'd really like to watch it again but at it's current state, no thanks.

It's understandable if you don't want to watch, we all grow out of shows my friend. It happened with the classic cartoon and it could happen here if the writers aren't careful. Perhaps the remaining 7 episodes (25 and 26 are one episode to me) can make a comeback, but we'll have to see after the break.

They wouldn't do that to Karai. She'll be back and she'll be reverted somehow. Donnie is working hard to find a cure.

It would need to be a well-written way to get Karai back to her real home Senpai, but she's been used as a plot driver a bit too often. Even if a cure is stable enough to work, I still feel worried in general that Karai won't be written well to have a satisfying conclusion on the show. I don't want her to stay a mutant and am tired of her one-dimensional plots, The Deadly Venom needs to result in something good for her.

[senpai]

It would need to be a well-written way to get Karai back to her real home Senpai, but she's been used as a plot driver a bit too often. Even if a cure is stable enough to work, I still feel worried in general that Karai won't be written well to have a satisfying conclusion on the show. I don't want her to stay a mutant and am tired of her one-dimensional plots, The Deadly Venom needs to result in something good for her.

I get what you're saying. Even if she was a human, it will be very hard for her to live in the sewers with her family, I think. April sort of fits but not entirely. Maybe if and when she pulls through, she can be the Foot's new leader. That way she'll be more her own person, and she will change the bad ways of that clan. That is, when Shredder is defeated in the end...I'm expecting that to happen anyway.

[GoldMutant]

I get what you're saying. Even if she was a human, it will be very hard for her to live in the sewers with her family, I think. April sort of fits but not entirely. Maybe if and when she pulls through, she can be the Foot's new leader. That way she'll be more her own person, and she will change the bad ways of that clan. That is, when Shredder is defeated in the end...I'm expecting that to happen anyway.

Unless her mutation can be controlled in a way similar to the Hulk? That'd be something I'd be curious on where she's human most of the time but turns into a mutant in desperate times. Seeing her takeover the Foot Clan in the end in a way similar to the Mirage Comics and 2003 series where they are allies would be a good route to see. I'm thinking Leo or Karai does Shredder in, perhaps when he turns into Super Shredder and they have nearly all died. I'd expect that route to happen, but we'll have to see. :)

[Luckyday]

Unless her mutation can be controlled in a way similar to the Hulk? That'd be something I'd be curious on where she's human most of the time but turns into a mutant in desperate times. Seeing her takeover the Foot Clan in the end in a way similar to the Mirage Comics and 2003 series where they are allies would be a good route to see. I'm thinking Leo or Karai does Shredder in, perhaps when he turns into Super Shredder and they have nearly all died. I'd expect that route to happen, but we'll have to see. :)

Of all things that could have been an entirely new arc for Karai instead of dragging of this tired plot line. Splinter would never give up on his daughter, and because he had successfully train April on how to use her sensing powers despite not being on the same level as April and he also has first hand experience on what it's like having a feral state of mind. If a cure is impossible then helping her live with it is the next best thing.

It would've probably took a season to get where Bruce Banner is in the Avengers: Age of Ultron but it's something new and more importantly interesting to do with her character.

And saying that April had already took spot of the being the daughter or the girl of the team is complete utter ********. That is like saying a sitcom with a predominant cast of white people should have just one token minority character.

Do you guys know that Cartoon Network even tried to get rid of the characters Marceline and Princess Bubblegum, two very well written characters, from Adventure Time because they didn't feel the need to appeal to women. Let that thought sink in for a minute because unless April and Karai virtually have the same personality, and backstory, at the end of the day it just doesn't matter that they both have the same ****ing gender.

[GoldMutant]

Of all things that could have been an entirely new arc for Karai instead of dragging of this tired plot line. Splinter would never give up on his daughter, and because he had successfully train April on how to use her sensing powers despite not being on the same level as April and he also has first hand experience on what it's like having a feral state of mind. If a cure is impossible then helping her live with it is the next best thing.

It would've probably took a season to get where Bruce Banner is in the Avengers: Age of Ultron but it's something new and more importantly interesting to do with her character.

And saying that April had already took spot of the being the daughter or the girl of the team is complete utter ********. That is like saying a sitcom with a predominant cast of white people should have just one token minority character.

Do you guys know that Cartoon Network even tried to get rid of the characters Marceline and Princess Bubblegum, two very well written characters, from Adventure Time because they didn't feel the need to appeal to women. Let that thought sink in for a minute because unless April and Karai virtually have the same personality, and backstory, at the end of the day it just doesn't matter that they both have the same ****ing gender.

Why can't we just get equality for all genders no matter what? Is it that hard for people to do?

I have no idea, the Hulk thing kinda just popped into my head when writing. I think it'd be potential to have Karai finally be free and if something can give with a cure, give her about three episodes to control her abilities. Even if April is important, Karai should be just as important due to her relations with Splinter. I'd find that an even bigger slap in the face than Raph's wasted characterization.

[Luckyday]

Why can't we just get equality for all genders no matter what? Is it that hard for people to do?

I have no idea, the Hulk thing kinda just popped into my head when writing. I think it'd be potential to have Karai finally be free and if something can give with a cure, give her about three episodes to control her abilities. Even if April is important, Karai should be just as important due to her relations with Splinter. I'd find that an even bigger slap in the face than Raph's wasted characterization.

Sometimes it just people who are in charge think too much about the focus group will say and that the target audience are unable relate to the character X because she/he is Y. And load and behold when Fast Furious 7 is highest grossing movie overseas.

Focus groups are **** anyway and it's almost never a good idea to base the show's story on executive decisions and market research.

You just need to write good characters with clever writing. The gender is blind when comes to quality and I'm tired of seeing a minority character being treated as something to "make a statement" and act like it's a huge deal.

[GoldMutant]

Sometimes it just people who are in charge think too much about the focus group say that the target audience are unable relate to character X because she/her is Y. And load and behold when Fast Furious 7 is highest grossing movie overseas.

Focus groups are **** anyway and it's almost never a good idea to base the show's story on executive decisions and market research.

You just need to write good characters with clever writing. The gender is blind when comes to quality and I'm tired of seeing a minority character being treated as something to "make a statement" and act like it's a huge deal.

As long as you have a sheep or the masses attention caught, they'll go with casual films that make big money. It's upsetting that some movies get little attention while others get green lit for sequels they don't deserve. Grab a big budget actor too and it's set to sell. It's depressing but easy to notice.

That's what I've been saying as well as Sabcooza. We want equal development for the characters and it's generally lackluster. Keep the political groups out of what we love, it'd seem unfair to those people. It happened with video games and it's happened with film because of Age of Ultron, it only seems inevitable for television too. I've lost a bit of faith for humanity right now, but this is crossing the line.

[Papenbrook]

As long as you have a sheep or the masses attention caught, they'll go with casual films that make big money. It's upsetting that some movies get little attention while others get green lit for sequels they don't deserve. Grab a big budget actor too and it's set to sell. It's depressing but easy to notice.

That's what I've been saying as well as Sabcooza. We want equal development for the characters and it's generally lackluster. Keep the political groups out of what we love, it'd seem unfair to those people. It happened with video games and it's happened with film because of Age of Ultron, it only seems inevitable for television too. I've lost a bit of faith for humanity right now, but this is crossing the line.


What do mean by "losing faith in humanity" and "crossing the line"?

[GoldMutant]

What do mean by "losing faith in humanity" and "crossing the line"?

Losing faith in humanity- I mean certain attitudes recently have made me feel generally upset with society's evolution. It's more apathetic at times and I wish for something to change.

-Crossing the line- It's the beliefs and bias thoughts entering the things we love. I can respect equality for everyone, but it shouldn't enter the things we enjoy such as games, movies, and television. That's where I find certain things to be ridiculous as hell. People can argue about their thoughts and I'd understand, but it shouldn't impact these three things and more. That's where I find it taken a little too extreme.

[Luckyday]

Losing faith in humanity- I mean certain attitudes recently have made me feel generally upset with society's evolution. It's more apathetic at times and I wish for something to change.

-Crossing the line- It's the beliefs and bias thoughts entering the things we love. I can respect equality for everyone, but it shouldn't enter the things we enjoy such as games, movies, and television. That's where I find certain things to be ridiculous as hell. People can argue about their thoughts and I'd understand, but it shouldn't impact these three things and more. That's where I find it taken a little too extreme.

Making the film appeal to a boarder audience has been done waaay before Age of Ultron with games, movies, and television.

Sometimes there is a good way about this to make universally appealing and sometimes it's just stupid and unnecessary. A example when it done wrong is when a movie like the Hobbit just has to have a romantic sub plot because "We need something to draw in the female audience." when in reality they don't really give a **** about that and just wanting to watch the Hobbit.

But the thing with the Black Window and the Hulk didn't felt like a force marketing decision, because they had common ground at the foundation and didn't suddenly get shove in the main center point of the movie.

Sometimes there is a balancing act on trying to get everybody on board while making the medium stay true to itself.

[Sabacooza]

Why can't we just get equality for all genders no matter what? Is it that hard for people to do?

I have no idea, the Hulk thing kinda just popped into my head when writing. I think it'd be potential to have Karai finally be free and if something can give with a cure, give her about three episodes to control her abilities. Even if April is important, Karai should be just as important due to her relations with Splinter. I'd find that an even bigger slap in the face than Raph's wasted characterization.Yep, we can certainly tell who their favorites are. They don't know what to do with Karai so they turn her into a snake and get rid of her for 1 8 + episodes. They don't know what to do with Raph so they shove him to the background. I'd be as bold to say if Viacom didn't demand that all TMNT be in the show in some fashion, they'd probably do to Raph what they did to Karai and find some excuse to get rid of him for a large number of episodes because they don't know how to write for him or it's too uninteresting for them. :roll: Yet we as an audience are to be satisfied seeing countless well written episodes focusing on Donnie, Leo and even April? Yeah, that doesn't get boring.:roll:

[GoldMutant]

Making the film appeal to a boarder audience has been done waaay before Age of Ultron with games, movies, and television.

Sometimes there is a good way about this to make universally appealing and sometimes it's just stupid and unnecessary. A example when it done wrong is when a movie like the Hobbit just has to have a romantic sub plot because "We need something to draw in the female audience." when in reality they don't really give a **** about that and just wanting to watch the Hobbit.

But the thing with the Black Window and the Hulk didn't felt like a force marketing decision, because they had common ground at the foundation and didn't suddenly get shove in the main center point of the movie.

Sometimes there is a balancing act on trying to get everybody on board while making the medium stay true to itself.

True, but Age of Ultron came to mind due to the arguing back on the Clash of the Mutanimals page. Even if everything is balanced, we'll still complain about it, it's what we do. Sometimes, it's just wise to focus on the target you wish to have, not try to do it for many demographics and risk the potential of trouble. Even then it'll lead to more money.

[Luckyday]

True, but Age of Ultron came to mind due to the arguing back on the Clash of the Mutanimals page. Even if everything is balanced, we'll still complain about it, it's what we do. Sometimes, it's just wise to focus on the target you wish to have, not try to do it for many demographics and risk the potential of trouble. Even then it'll lead to more money.

Yeah while there wasn't anything broken but wasn't it taking any risk.

I have to wonder if there is a fine line of not getting what we vs the show having legit problems like the plot is dependent on characters becoming stupid in order for stuff to happen, not letting characters having normal human reactions in given situations, plot amnesias that gives me migraines, characters getting the shaft, and insisting that a character is in love with another character, but again the mother ****ing plot demands it!

[Warhorse]

Sometimes it just people who are in charge think too much about the focus group will say and that the target audience are unable relate to the character X because she/he is Y. And load and behold when Fast Furious 7 is highest grossing movie overseas.

Focus groups are **** anyway and it's almost never a good idea to base the show's story on executive decisions and market research.

You just need to write good characters with clever writing. The gender is blind when comes to quality and I'm tired of seeing a minority character being treated as something to "make a statement" and act like it's a huge deal.

Ever watched the movie Big? The scene when Tom Hank's character is invited into the first meeting, and sees some pitch on a stupid toy design, spurred because the marketing group was focused on trends, demographics and whatnot, and he kept on raising his hand "I don't get it!" The way these cartoons and Hollywood in general is set up, I feel like I'm Tom Hank's character, when I am seeing mostly female driven movies and shows to be in the very top of the ratings.

[Jephael]

That's show-biz for ya. The sad thing is in this day and age a lot of really good ideas are being poorly executed. I can hardly bring myself to watch anything on Cartoon Network at this point.

[Luckyday]

That's show-biz for ya. The sad thing is in this day and age a lot of really good ideas are being poorly executed. I can hardly bring myself to watch anything on Cartoon Network at this point.

You mean current Cartoon Network?http://i.imgur.com/lAru4pJ.png

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2014/03/Regular-Show-Adventure-Time-Steven-Universe-Cartoon-Network-Boom-Studios.png

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

I have to wonder if there is a fine line of not getting what we vs the show having legit problems like the plot is dependent on characters becoming stupid in order for stuff to happen, not letting characters having normal human reactions in given situations, plot amnesias that gives me migraines, characters getting the shaft, and insisting that a character is in love with another character, but again the mother ****ing plot demands it!

Even the newest episode is a culprit for that for Raph. The guy was just mind controlled and forced to attack his family. In the NEXT Episode, what do they have him do?

Try to pass the censors with a possible 'making noises/Jerking The Chain' joke and 'oh, he's playing with his toys/action figures'. And that's all they can give him to do.

Hell, here's an idea.

Raph is depressed and down in the dumps...understandable when you were forced to attack your own family. Now, who are the two that Raph is supposed to be closest too? Mikey and Casey.

You could have had both Mikey AND Casey bring Raph out with them (let it be Mikey's idea to do so) so that the three of them can hang out together. To get out of the lair and try to make Raph 'lighten up/have fun/smile' after what had happened to him in the previous episode (and both Mikey & Casey would be the two perfect guys to do that for Raph). Take Raph's mind off of being forced to attack his family. But hey...I guess that would be Too Good of an idea to do that. It would give some continuity to the show, give some possible Raph/Mikey/Casey emotional moments, and more.

And I am still dumbfounded when people still debate the issue about the writing, plot amnesia, and how Raph is used in this show. It's their opinion, to each their own, but I'll never understand it.

[Sabacooza]

Even the newest episode is a culprit for that for Raph. The guy was just mind controlled and forced to attack his family. In the NEXT Episode, what do they have him do?

Try to pass the censors with a possible 'making noises/Jerking The Chain' joke and 'oh, he's playing with his toys/action figures'. And that's all they can give him to do.

Hell, here's an idea.

Raph is depressed and down in the dumps...understandable when you were forced to attack your own family. Now, who are the two that Raph is supposed to be closest too? Mikey and Casey.

You could have had both Mikey AND Casey bring Raph out with them (let it be Mikey's idea to do so) so that the three of them can hang out together. To get out of the lair and try to make Raph 'lighten up/have fun/smile' after what had happened to him in the previous episode (and both Mikey & Casey would be the two perfect guys to do that for Raph). Take Raph's mind off of being forced to attack his family. But hey...I guess that would be Too Good of an idea to do that. It would give some continuity to the show, give some possible Raph/Mikey/Casey emotional moments, and more.

And I am still dumbfounded when people still debate the issue about the writing, plot amnesia, and how Raph is used in this show. It's their opinion, to each their own, but I'll never understand it.I agree with all of this. If they took this approach, it would've connected with the previous one nicely and they maybe could've threw something in there near the end to tie into the Karai episode but of course not. That would make too much sense.

[Luckyday]

Ever watched the movie Big? The scene when Tom Hank's character is invited into the first meeting, and sees some pitch on a stupid toy design, spurred because the marketing group was focused on trends, demographics and whatnot, and he kept on raising his hand "I don't get it!" The way these cartoons and Hollywood in general is set up, I feel like I'm Tom Hank's character, when I am seeing mostly female driven movies and shows to be in the very top of the ratings.

Yeah, but I have mix feelings. Like part of me is glad that the movie "Home" did so well at the box office because it had a leading non white female protagonist , which is something that you don't see a lot in other movies unless of course "It's trying to make a statement on "X" culture" but then I hear the movie is not so good if you don't have the short attention span of a magpie.

I just want to be good for the right reasons, just like I want Steven Universe to beloved because it has a enriching continuity and well written characters with voice over work that can chew a scene like no one's business. It's great that has strong female characters with different body types but without the writing to back it up, it would have been one of those condescending shows that suppose to be label "for girls only" just like how My Little Pony use to be before Lauren Faust turn it around made it as something that can be endearing and relatable by everybody.

On the opposite side of the argument, with actions shows that are targeted towards a 20 something male demographic but for some reason shoe horned in female characters, it depends how much the female characters fits in within story or the female characters serve a purpose other then being a love interest to make the male character feel "relatable" or to have female characters just because it trying to make the property look PC but in reality feels like a token character.

With me being a snob on adaptations, if movie doesn't try to change what the original is trying to say then that is only thing that matters to me.

[Shark_Blade]

You know, looking back at all the films, Raph has always been the main centre of attention. Even worse in 2k7 where the movie was mostly dedicated to him and his Nightwatcher persona.

Maybe it's only appropriate he gets the shove this time around. What goes around comes around, that's what you get for hogging the spotlight. You got shelved this time, son!

[Warhorse]

You know, looking back at all the films, Raph has always been the main centre of attention. Even worse in 2k7 where the movie was mostly dedicated to him and his Nightwatcher persona.

Maybe it's only appropriate he gets the shove this time around. What goes around comes around, that's what you get for hogging the spotlight. You got shelved this time, son!

This is soooo stupid.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

You know, looking back at all the films, Raph has always been the main centre of attention. Even worse in 2k7 where the movie was mostly dedicated to him and his Nightwatcher persona.

Maybe it's only appropriate he gets the shove this time around. What goes around comes around, that's what you get for hogging the spotlight. You got shelved this time, son!

He didn't have the spotlight in the second film. If you mention the 'Keno' thing (which was ONE SCENE where him and Keno went to the Foot compound), then one could mention Donatello and his dealings with Professor Perry or when he questions about the meaning of their existence, hacking into TCRI, etc. To be honest, the second film had all 4 of the turtles on equal footing.

And he didn't have the spotlight in the third film. If you mention 'him and the kid', then what about Mikey and Mitsu (which had the same running time...as well as being the one who was knocked out/taken/in danger, and the one who saved the little kid from the fire)? Mikey had as much of a spotlight, if not more so, than Raph.

As for the 2007 flick, I guess you wanted to neglect the whole "Leo was sent away, Leo was brought back to reform the 'broken family', Leo as the 'Ghost of the Jungle', the fight with Raph vs. LEO, etc.' Leo had at the very LEAST equal spotlight.

But, of course people just throw all of this away instead of looking at the facts. Nice try, though.

As for the 2014 film? None of the Turtles had the spotlight because none of them were the stars of their own movie. It was April O'Neil: The Movie, co-starring Megan Fox's Tits, Megan Fox's Ass, Megan Fox's Piece of Wood which equals Her Acting, Whoopi's Silly Hair, Will Arnett, Fichtner, some Asian Guy...and, oh yeah, some Super CHUDs who once in a while fart in the others' faces, didn't do martial arts, mentioned their boner or how much one wants to screw April, or sliding down a hill...and people who deny that? Well, there's not much I can say without sounding like an ass. So I won't.

[ssjup81]

Personally, this is how I view the films...

Movie 1: Raph, Leo
Movie 2: Donatello
Movie 3: Mikey, Raph
Movie 4: Raph, Leo

Recent film, dunno.

[victory_angel]

Personally, this is how I view the films...

Movie 1: Raph, Leo
Movie 2: Donatello
Movie 3: Mikey, Raph
Movie 4: Raph, Leo

Recent film, dunno.

Recent Film: April, Raph,

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Recent Film: April, Raph,

More like:

Recent Film: April, April's Ass, Arnett, Fichtner, Whoopi's Hair.

[victory_angel]

More like:

Recent Film: April, April's Ass, Arnett, Fichtner, Whoopi's Hair.

Whoopi was forgetable in that movie,

and Raph had more of a role then the other three Turtles and Splinter combined.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Whoopi was forgetable in that movie,

and Raph had more of a role then the other three Turtles and Splinter combined.


Not really. He woke up, went into a van, got his ass kicked by the Shredder, and that's it (it was April and Vern who saved the other turtles', not Raph). It wasn't more than Splinter (having the big fight against Shredder & the Foot, being the main force in the flashback stuff, him being hurt was the big turning point of the film). So did Mikey (all his stuff dealing with April, etc.)

I mean, if you want to talk about forgettable (when you mentioned Whoopi)? ALL of the Turtles were forgettable in their own movie, unless it was something stupid like Mikey farting in his brothers' faces while stuck in a manhole, or alluding to his boner inside his shell.

None of the turtles had ANY kind of role in the film. That's my point. It was the humans' movie, not the Turtles. That's just a fact. And I'm sorry for sounding rude, but people who say otherwise are just lying to themselves.

[yellowmario27]

Not really. He woke up, went into a van, got his ass kicked by the Shredder, and that's it (it was April and Vern who saved the other turtles', not Raph). It wasn't more than Splinter (having the big fight against Shredder & the Foot, being the main force in the flashback stuff, him being hurt was the big turning point of the film). So did Mikey (all his stuff dealing with April, etc.)

I mean, if you want to talk about forgettable (when you mentioned Whoopi)? ALL of the Turtles were forgettable in their own movie, unless it was something stupid like Mikey farting in his brothers' faces while stuck in a manhole, or alluding to his boner inside his shell.

None of the turtles had ANY kind of role in the film. That's my point. It was the humans' movie, not the Turtles. That's just a fact. And I'm sorry for sounding rude, but people who say otherwise are just lying to themselves.


Actually, Raph is the one who had a storyline in that movie.

At first we see Raph having some tension with Leo, and then claiming he's going to leave and go out on his own

Then once his brothers get captured, he has to go save them. (finding april and vern, crashing into the shredder's lair)

Then when they ALL are falling off the building Raph is the one who says that "speech" about how he loves his brothers and how he's sorry for pushing them away etc

I'm not saying that he had a HUGE part of the movie, but you would be lying if you say the others had nearly as much focus.

[Foombamaroom]

Actually, Raph is the one who had a storyline in that movie.

At first we see Raph having some tension with Leo, and then claiming he's going to leave and go out on his own

Then once his brothers get captured, he has to go save them. (finding april and vern, crashing into the shredder's lair)

Then when they ALL are falling off the building Raph is the one who says that "speech" about how he loves his brothers and how he's sorry for pushing them away etc

I'm not saying that he had a HUGE part of the movie, but you would be lying if you say the others had nearly as much focus.

You're stretching. It could be argued that Leo has a big part, too: dealing with Raph. And the upsetting part is that you shouldn't have to stretch. It's completely unreasonable that people should have to watch a movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and get an hour and a half of April running around doing things.

Also, all of you people like, "OMG, RAPH GOT A LOT OF DEVELOPMENT IN THE MOVIES," let me make something VERY clear.
THE MOVIES.
ARE NOT.
RELEVANT.

Just because Raph got development in the movies DOESN'T mean he shouldn't get development in the show. No one's saying for Donnie and Leo to stop getting development all together, just give Mikey and Raph some.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

The thing I've noticed with Raph for this show is that they don't seem to do much with him in terms of characterization. Leo is more of a younger and inexperienced leader who now has a fanboy side to him for a show that he loves so much which inspires him to be a leader, Donnie has an added crush to April and is not afraid to show his edgier side, and Mikey..........well, he has his charm. But Raphael, there's not much they added to his character. The only thing that made him slightly interesting was giving him a pet turtle, who is no longer with him, to personally talk to. Now they don't need to necessarily add anything to him but I don't think they give him any interesting stories to tell. In my honest opinion, Raphael is the turtle that you can tell so many interesting stories with. I feel that he is the turtle a writer could give the most character development to and this is coming from a huge Leo fan.

[Sabacooza]

The thing I've noticed with Raph for this show is that they don't seem to do much with him in terms of characterization. Leo is more of a younger and inexperienced leader who now has a fanboy side to him for a show that he loves so much which inspires him to be a leader, Donnie has an added crush to April and is not afraid to show his edgier side, and Mikey..........well, he has his charm. But Raphael, there's not much they added to his character. The only thing that made him slightly interesting was giving him a pet turtle, who is no longer with him, to personally talk to. Now they don't need to necessarily add anything to him but I don't think they give him any interesting stories to tell. In my honest opinion, Raphael is the turtle that you can tell so many interesting stories with. I feel that he is the turtle a writer could give the most character development to and this is coming from a huge Leo fan.I'm glad you actually get it and this is all coming from a Leo fan as you said.:D I just think it's so sad these writers and producers are so content on just kicking him to the curb. There's clearly more that can be done with him. Hell, IDW has got it right and has given Raph some depth and is an important part of the group just like the rest. That's the way to do it. The sad thing is, Raph had some of that in the Nick show but then it just faded away for whatever reason.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Personally, this is how I view the films...

Movie 1: Raph, Leo
Movie 2: Donatello
Movie 3: Mikey, Raph
Movie 4: Raph, Leo

Recent film, dunno.

Movie 2 also had Raph (his tension with Leo, going off with Keno, the fact he had to be rescued, etc.)

Recent Film: April, Raph,

Yup. Possibly Leo as well, with how many times he was tazed and yet still did MOST of the big saves. And his bickering with Raph.

Whoopi was forgetable in that movie,

and Raph had more of a role then the other three Turtles and Splinter combined.

Pretty much. Even in the scenes with the others, the focus was often on him. Especially in the fights.


Actually, Raph is the one who had a storyline in that movie.

At first we see Raph having some tension with Leo, and then claiming he's going to leave and go out on his own

Then once his brothers get captured, he has to go save them. (finding april and vern, crashing into the shredder's lair)

Then when they ALL are falling off the building Raph is the one who says that "speech" about how he loves his brothers and how he's sorry for pushing them away etc

I'm not saying that he had a HUGE part of the movie, but you would be lying if you say the others had nearly as much focus.


^ All of this. Raph also had those scenes in disguise with April that were cut. Even more focus there.


All that aside, I can understand Raph fans being upset that he doesn't get enough "focus", but I can say the same for Mikey, who only ever gets any for being funny, or on the RARE occasions when they want him to "look good" after his brothers dismiss him. And it's annoying, because they MADE him like that SPECIFICALLY to get laughs and not much else! Like, he barely has anything to make him interesting in this series, although he's at least acting a little more mature now, and ICK is honestly one of the best things they've done for him. It's frustrating, because they wrote him into a comic-relief corner, and now there's little else they can do with him.

[victory_angel]

In the introduction commericals, back in season 1 Raph does say he's the only normal one of the four of them. Maybe he's supposed to be the way he is because he's supposed to be the straight man to everyone else.

What would be awesome is in season 4 is they have a show that Raph likes, however it's something that he's afraid of admitting he likes. I'm not saying he should secretly be an in the closet brony.

But what if he's the one who likes Soap Opera's instead of Splinter in this incarnation. He just doesn't want his brothers to know because he thinks they'd tease him about it.

[Luckyday]

All that aside, I can understand Raph fans being upset that he doesn't get enough "focus", but I can say the same for Mikey, who only ever gets any for being funny, or on the RARE occasions when they want him to "look good" after his brothers dismiss him. And it's annoying, because they MADE him like that SPECIFICALLY to get laughs and not much else! Like, he barely has anything to make him interesting in this series, although he's at least acting a little more mature now, and ICK is honestly one of the best things they've done for him. It's frustrating, because they wrote him into a comic-relief corner, and now there's little else they can do with him.

It's starting becoming predicable with having Mikey constantly be the comic relief and honestly if he's the only light hearted character, it becomes jarring rather then distinct. You should either give all turtles a comedic tone or none at all and just make Mikey the mellow one of the group.

I really hope that in the future they could something different with Mikey other then being the funny one.

In the introduction commericals, back in season 1 Raph does say he's the only normal one of the four of them. Maybe he's supposed to be the way he is because he's supposed to be the straight man to everyone else.

What would be awesome is in season 4 is they have a show that Raph likes, however it's something that he's afraid of admitting he likes. I'm not saying he should secretly be an in the closet brony.

But what if he's the one who likes Soap Opera's instead of Splinter in this incarnation. He just doesn't want his brothers to know because he thinks they'd tease him about it.

^That would be so adorable. Ralph is a closet romantic and would make sense since he is the most passionate out of the four of them. :lol:

[GoldMutant]

I caught a glimpse of something on both the Turtles Torture and Official Season 3 Information threads and something came to mind with the upcoming three episodes. We already know the first two will be time travel (bring on a SAINW! :)) but then you have Attack of the Mega Shredder! Though the description is simply saying Leo is confronting Shredder again, it's hinting at something big going down for the remainder of the season.

I already assume it will involve Shredder mutating into Super Shredder or a brand new armor set like Utrom Shredder. However, as much as I want SS, I don't think it'll be until the series reaches it's final episode. If the biggest mutant threat yet is coming, what if it's TOKKA?!

You'll have to view the threads themselves to see the posts, but if Xever isn't becoming Tokka or Slash double mutating, what if briefly it's Raphael who becomes the snapping turtle mutant? It could be a potential emotional development and could be even better than the lackluster Dark Raphael. It's more of an assumption by two other users, but I think this would be a splendid idea to execute. :)

Also, wow we hit 200 replies now, the hothead is getting some critical love.

[Sabacooza]

I caught a glimpse of something on both the Turtles Torture and Official Season 3 Information threads and something came to mind with the upcoming three episodes. We already know the first two will be time travel (bring on a SAINW! :)) but then you have Attack of the Mega Shredder! Though the description is simply saying Leo is confronting Shredder again, it's hinting at something big going down for the remainder of the season.

I already assume it will involve Shredder mutating into Super Shredder or a brand new armor set like Utrom Shredder. However, as much as I want SS, I don't think it'll be until the series reaches it's final episode. If the biggest mutant threat yet is coming, what if it's TOKKA?!

You'll have to view the threads themselves to see the posts, but if Xever isn't becoming Tokka or Slash double mutating, what if briefly it's Raphael who becomes the snapping turtle mutant? It could be a potential emotional development and could be even better than the lackluster Dark Raphael. It's more of an assumption by two other users, but I think this would be a splendid idea to execute. :)

Also, wow we hit 200 replies now, the hothead is getting some critical love.That's a pretty interesting theory. Whatever it takes to put Raph on the map I guess. I just hope it's handled really well but honestly I have very little faith. I hope I'm proven wrong.

[GoldMutant]

That's a pretty interesting theory. Whatever it takes to put Raph on the map I guess. I just hope it's handled really well but honestly I have very little faith. I hope I'm proven wrong.

I found the quotes my friend, they do much better explaining than me:

Wait a minute- what if this "mutant threat" is something else. What if the Shredder's minions captured one of the turtles (my money's on Mikey or Raph, but seeing as Raph's the dude in distress this incarnation, it's probably him) and tells Leo to come to the Shredder's place alone. In an awesome one-on-one battle between Leo and Shredder (who plans on mutating himself to get stronger), the captured turtle accidently gets mutated instead, and Leo has to deal with this threat! Then again, Nick doesn't seem to be the kind to throw curveballs, so the Shredder will probably just mutate himself and Leo will just have to hightail out of there when it happens. (season 3 thread)

A few months ago I speculated about how Leo is shown losing his swords in Return to New York and how that can be foreshadowing the loss of Donnie and Raph.

We know we are going to get a Tokka at some point, also the Turtles are going to return to Northhampton at some point soon.

We have three New Episodes coming up before San Diego Comic Con,
The first is Turtles in Time where Renet is introduced and takes the Turtles with her to fight Savantei Ramero.

The next episode is called Legend of the Yokai, in this episode the Turtles are sent to the past to encounter Oroku Saki before he became the Shredder. (and possibly set him on the path to becoming Shredder, unintentionally of course)

And the final episode is Mega Shredder. All we know about this episode is that Leo goes to face the Shredder alone.

So given what the Shredder has done with Karai, forced Karai to do to his brothers, and the events of Legend of the Yokai. Leo probably feels that Shredder has terrorized his family long enough and decides to take matters into his own hands and defeat Shredder once and for all.

The others realize what he's up to and rush to stop him, because if he acts on his own the only thing that would happen is that he would be killed. And they don't want to nearly lose him again. (Perhaps Karai attacks the lair driving the Turtles and Splinter out into the open.)

They arrive to help and see Leo about to be struck a serious blow. Donnie pushes Leo out of the way taking the blow himself, Raph sees this and becomes enraged and fights the Shredder head on. During the fight, Raph is knocked into the mutagen and double mutated into Tokka as he's being mutated we see clips of memories fading away as his mind becomes more and more savage and feral.

The Turtles are forced to retreat with April, Casey, and Splinter to the farm house as Donnie's injuries are serious and if they aren't tended to they could lose him. Raph in the mean time is secured and mind controlled into obeying the Shredder and given the name Tokka.

In the ride to North Hampton, Mikey or Casey asks about what they are going to do about Raph. Leo says the only thing they can do. Splinter tells his son's that Donatello needs a chance to recover first.

April probably mentions that Karai and Raph know where the Lair is, they probably are destroying Donnie's lab as they speak. Mikey then mentions he conveniently grabbed the Retromutagen that Donnie had been working on, just in case they were driven out of the city.

In the mean time Karai and Tokka get to the lair with the intent on destroying it. Tokka starts destroying the lab when he sees the photo wall in there and wonders why everyone in it looks familiar.

Karai on the other hand goes to the Dojo and finds the family picture with herself as a baby. She first looks like she is going to destroy the photo, but then instead tucks it beneath her armor. Before she starts destroying everything else. (Turtle Torture thread)

It'd be a very risky move in the end, but if Dark Raph wasn't the solution, this could be. I most certainly agree with these two that if handled correctly, the build to season 3's conclusion will be amazing, best of all the build ups and perhaps can fix some of the flaws we've witnessed of a lackluster season thus far.

[Sabacooza]

I found the quotes my friend, they do much better explaining than me:

(season 3 thread)

(Turtle Torture thread)

It'd be a very risky move in the end, but if Dark Raph wasn't the solution, this could be. I most certainly agree with these two that if handled correctly, the build to season 3's conclusion will be amazing, best of all the build ups and perhaps can fix some of the flaws we've witnessed of a lackluster season thus far.I doubt the writers and the producers are this smart but what if they were pushing Raph to the background and making the viewers feel like he's underappreciated for this very reason. Maybe the TMNT will also feel this and it will make more of an impact if you get what I'm saying.

[GoldMutant]

I doubt the writers and the producers are this smart but what if they were pushing Raph to the background and making the viewers feel like he's underappreciated for this very reason. Maybe the TMNT will also feel this and it will make more of an impact if you get what I'm saying.

I do get what you are saying Sabacooza, perhaps the idea I had to replace the plot for In Dreams could have shown this. I mostly just wanted to show the idea put to the test, the people here in the Nick thread always have great ideas to share, with victoryangel being one of them. Raphael has not had that big moment in the show yet to shine while everyone else got one great moment. I might be restating from my idea, but let's add in possible reactions by Raph.

Leo: Braving the Foot Clan by himself and nearly dying to do so. A little bit of envy to show he's not entirely the best fighter like at the beginning of the series but also respect for the brave act. He does consider Leo the best bro ever, even if Leo develops, it still glorifies him.

Donnie: The creation of retromutagen. Possible respect from Raph and if Shredder were to gain it, perhaps frustration between the teams if it were to blast someone with it that's on their side.

Mikey: Braving Dimension X. Completely shocked.

Leo and Mikey both had a character growth while Donnie had a storyline moment; perhaps Raph should follow suit with a strong story like the fellow that does machines. Maybe Raph feels so underrated compared to his family, he leaves home and joins the Mighty Mutanimals for a little bit, he battles and destroys some henchmutants or just goes solo. The team, especially Michelangelo and Casey would miss him.

[Sabacooza]

I do get what you are saying Sabacooza, perhaps the idea I had to replace the plot for In Dreams could have shown this. I mostly just wanted to show the idea put to the test, the people here in the Nick thread always have great ideas to share, with victoryangel being one of them. Raphael has not had that big moment in the show yet to shine while everyone else got one great moment. I might be restating from my idea, but let's add in possible reactions by Raph.

Leo: Braving the Foot Clan by himself and nearly dying to do so. A little bit of envy to show he's not entirely the best fighter like at the beginning of the series but also respect for the brave act. He does consider Leo the best bro ever, even if Leo develops, it still glorifies him.

Donnie: The creation of retromutagen. Possible respect from Raph and if Shredder were to gain it, perhaps frustration between the teams if it were to blast someone with it that's on their side.

Mikey: Braving Dimension X. Completely shocked.

Leo and Mikey both had a character growth while Donnie had a storyline moment; perhaps Raph should follow suit with a strong story like the fellow that does machines. Maybe Raph feels so underrated compared to his family, he leaves home and joins the Mighty Mutanimals for a little bit, he battles and destroys some henchmutants or just goes solo. The team, especially Michelangelo and Casey would miss him.Those are all good points and it might be a good time to add a flashback on how he got his scar. Either way, he really needs something in this season to make him shine. Maybe they'll treat him better in season 4 but I might not stick around long enough to find out.

[GoldMutant]

Those are all good points and it might be a good time to add a flashback on how he got his scar. Either way, he really needs something in this season to make him shine. Maybe they'll treat him better in season 4 but I might not stick around long enough to find out.

If a Tales of .... was done for Raph or Mikey (more so Mikey as he hasn't had a near death injury before) or a possible Turtle Tots episode, there is a good chance that the scar can finally be learned of. I'm honestly interested in Donatello's tooth gap for that matter as well. Even as unique features to make the characters different, I'm curious on what they have in mind.

If Dark Raphael was the nail to the coffin, the only way Raph is getting love is the imagination of the fans for the time being. We can envision our desires, but it's difficult to see them as reality. I'm hoping to create a Same As It Never Was reality with the Dark Turtles as the villains, with Raph gaining Nightwatcher armor in addition to Shredder's gauntlets. I can understand you taking your leave until you learn of any good news though.

The next three episodes seem promising for setting up Renet and whatever the finale is now, which is getting confusing. Is it enslaving the city, bringing back Karai, or simply a war? I'm curious still, but even with the Foot Clan as the focus to end this, what will be the conflict?

Then again, that's for the future, this is about the hothead not the future.

[ssjup81]

If a Tales of .... was done for Raph or Mikey (more so Mikey as he hasn't had a near death injury before) or a possible Turtle Tots episode, there is a good chance that the scar can finally be learned of. I'm honestly interested in Donatello's tooth gap for that matter as well. Even as unique features to make the characters different, I'm curious on what they have in mind.

If Dark Raphael was the nail to the coffin, the only way Raph is getting love is the imagination of the fans for the time being. We can envision our desires, but it's difficult to see them as reality. I'm hoping to create a Same As It Never Was reality with the Dark Turtles as the villains, with Raph gaining Nightwatcher armor in addition to Shredder's gauntlets. I can understand you taking your leave until you learn of any good news though.

The next three episodes seem promising for setting up Renet and whatever the finale is now, which is getting confusing. Is it enslaving the city, bringing back Karai, or simply a war? I'm curious still, but even with the Foot Clan as the focus to end this, what will be the conflict?

Then again, that's for the future, this is about the hothead not the future.What about Wrath of Tigerclaw? Mikey's shell was knocked loose and seems for Pizzaface (which was supposed to have originally aired after this ep as opposed to before it), seems he might've been recovering from that battle.

[GoldMutant]

What about Wrath of Tigerclaw? Mikey's shell was knocked loose and seems for Pizzaface (which was supposed to have originally aired after this ep as opposed to before it), seems he might've been recovering from that battle.

I guess I need to be specific.

Leo- nearly killed in the Mirage Comics and 2003 series. Also here in the Invasion.

Raph- thrown through the apartment in the 1990 movie.

Donnie- mamed by a helicopter in the Image Comics and IDW comics, where he is placed in a robot body to reserve his mind..'

All three of the other brothers have gotten beaten to near death in previous incarnations. Mikey has suffered injuries yes, but not to near death like his brothers. I have to rewatch Wrath of Tiger Claw and Pizza Face is filler (though he appears in a cameo for Xever's race), but Mikey hasn't been put through extreme injury or close to death. Raph has only had it once with Donnie's being the most recent outside the show and Leo getting the most brutal beatings, meaning either the hothead or goofball makes sense for a Tales of... story.

[ssjup81]

I guess I need to be specific.

Leo- nearly killed in the Mirage Comics and 2003 series. Also here in the Invasion.

Raph- thrown through the apartment in the 1990 movie.

Donnie- mamed by a helicopter in the Image Comics and IDW comics, where he is placed in a robot body to reserve his mind..'

All three of the other brothers have gotten beaten to near death in previous incarnations. Mikey has suffered injuries yes, but not to near death like his brothers. I have to rewatch Wrath of Tiger Claw and Pizza Face is filler (though he appears in a cameo for Xever's race), but Mikey hasn't been put through extreme injury or close to death. Raph has only had it once with Donnie's being the most recent outside the show and Leo getting the most brutal beatings, meaning either the hothead or goofball makes sense for a Tales of... story.My mistake. I thought you were referring only to this incarnation. I didn't know you were referring to all. Sorry. ^^ In that case, yeah...a Tales story would be suitable.

Oh and for me, despite the cameo, I still felt Pizzaface was a dream....I made a post about it someplace...

Edit: Found it...

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1347879&postcount=4851

[GoldMutant]

My mistake. I thought you were referring only to this incarnation. I didn't know you were referring to all. Sorry. ^^ In that case, yeah...a Tales story would be suitable.

Oh and for me, despite the cameo, I still felt Pizzaface was a dream....I made a post about it someplace...

Edit: Found it...

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1347879&postcount=4851

Perfectly fine. :) Michelangelo has been injured several times and has gotten severe beatings such as Vengeance is Mine and Slash and Destroy, but never a full out near death experience before. Perhaps this could be a change in the future.

Mikey has had the least suffering in the entirety of this show, which means I feel he should be the one getting the injury story. Perhaps if the idea of Raphael becoming Tokka happens (it is more of an assumption, not confirmed) perhaps Mikey gets his shell beaten to near death, causing a return to the farmhouse for a short while and when New York is returned to, Mikey could save his brother. Gives both of them purpose for the first time in a while and could be what Dark Raphael should have been.

Very interesting read through of Pizza Face. Anyways, just like someone said before on here, this isn't a Donatello thread and it isn't a Mikey thread, it's Raphael's and possibly how we can change things for everyone's favorite hothead.

[victory_angel]

Perfectly fine. :) Michelangelo has been injured several times and has gotten severe beatings such as Vengeance is Mine and Slash and Destroy, but never a full out near death experience before. Perhaps this could be a change in the future.

Mikey has had the least suffering in the entirety of this show, which means I feel he should be the one getting the injury story. Perhaps if the idea of Raphael becoming Tokka happens (it is more of an assumption, not confirmed) perhaps Mikey gets his shell beaten to near death, causing a return to the farmhouse for a short while and when New York is returned to, Mikey could save his brother. Gives both of them purpose for the first time in a while and could be what Dark Raphael should have been.

Very interesting read through of Pizza Face. Anyways, just like someone said before on here, this isn't a Donatello thread and it isn't a Mikey thread, it's Raphael's and possibly how we can change things for everyone's favorite hothead.

Perhaps both Donnie and Mikey get hurt. Donnie gets hurt protecting Leo and Mikey gets badly injured trying to reach Raph.

Raph being Tokka doesn't remember them because he's more simple minded then he once was so he doesn't realizes what he's done.

[Tarris Vaal]

Although this is getting dangerously close to pushing this thread into speculation again.... I think that double mutating Slash into Tokka is the most logical route to go for the show;

*We know that Slash and Leo have something of a uncomfortable alliance and Leo still struggles to trust him.

*Double mutating Raph into a snapping monster would mean removing him from the hero roster temporarily (presumably).

*Tokka isn't known for conversation, which means that Raph's character development from such a scenario would be reduced to how Everyone Else reacts to him and him snarling and snapping. Arguably thats even worse for Raph than it is now.

*Raph still cares for Slash as a close friend, so losing Slash in this way would hit him quite hard.


Returning Slash to a savage villain would confirm Leo's worst suspicions, give plenty of scope for beating Donnie to a pulp (Slash has history for this after all) :), give Mikey an opportunity to name the double mutated Slash without it being giving his own brother a monster name, and really hurt Raph emotionally.
Plus its yet another excuse to bring in the mutanimals.

That way, Leo and Raph have more reason to butt heads, Raph could become a major focus as he tries to deal with losing (and saving) his friend. Raph could even potentially end up leaving to join the mutanimals while Leo and Mikey stay in Northampton to protect Donnie - giving 2 simultaneous story arcs while the group is separated.


I know its just speculating, but at least this way the show doesn't 'lose' Raph to this plot development and helps hand him more focus.

[Sabacooza]

Although this is getting dangerously close to pushing this thread into speculation again.... I think that double mutating Slash into Tokka is the most logical route to go for the show;

*We know that Slash and Leo have something of a uncomfortable alliance and Leo still struggles to trust him.

*Double mutating Raph into a snapping monster would mean removing him from the hero roster temporarily (presumably).

*Tokka isn't known for conversation, which means that Raph's character development from such a scenario would be reduced to how Everyone Else reacts to him and him snarling and snapping. Arguably thats even worse for Raph than it is now.

*Raph still cares for Slash as a close friend, so losing Slash in this way would hit him quite hard.


Returning Slash to a savage villain would confirm Leo's worst suspicions, give plenty of scope for beating Donnie to a pulp (Slash has history for this after all) :), give Mikey an opportunity to name the double mutated Slash without it being giving his own brother a monster name, and really hurt Raph emotionally.
Plus its yet another excuse to bring in the mutanimals.

That way, Leo and Raph have more reason to butt heads, Raph could become a major focus as he tries to deal with losing (and saving) his friend. Raph could even potentially end up leaving to join the mutanimals while Leo and Mikey stay in Northampton to protect Donnie - giving 2 simultaneous story arcs while the group is separated.


I know its just speculating, but at least this way the show doesn't 'lose' Raph to this plot development and helps hand him more focus.WOW! I like this even more. Having Slash double mutated makes more sense and would give them a reason for Raph and Slash to interact again. It could be pretty emotional if done right.

[ssjup81]

Personally, I wouldn't want to see that either...Raphael in that situation of mutating (Slash makes more sense since Feldman can't be around every ep to voice him anyway), but I still feel that maybe the mind control thing may not be finished regarding him...but I could easily be wrong.

[GoldMutant]

For the most part, I did want to share the idea here.

Either route can work if executed the best way possible. Slash becoming Tokka does have potential for some development, I just thought last night it's predictable, but now I can see it working.

Again, I didn't want to spiral the thread out of control, so apologies.

[ssjup81]

For the most part, I did want to share the idea here.

Either route can work if executed the best way possible. Slash becoming Tokka does have potential for some development, I just thought last night it's predictable, but now I can see it working.

Again, I didn't want to spiral the thread out of control, so apologies.No, it's actually a good theory. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that myself, but hope that if they do go this route, it's definitely with Slash. Astin and Feldman need more scenes together.

[GoldMutant]

No, it's actually a good theory. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that myself, but hope that if they do go this route, it's definitely with Slash. Astin and Feldman need more scenes together.

Considering their history with the Goonies, the interactions between Sean Astin and Cory Feldman are one of my personal favorite in the entire series. Having Tokka bring another layer to the story would be an interesting concept, perhaps causing a conflict between the MM and TMNT.

Seeing Raphael lead the Mutanimals for a little or joining is actually a really good idea, he did take part of the team for a little bit in the Archie comics too.

[yellowmario27]

You're stretching. It could be argued that Leo has a big part, too: dealing with Raph. And the upsetting part is that you shouldn't have to stretch. It's completely unreasonable that people should have to watch a movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and get an hour and a half of April running around doing things.

Also, all of you people like, "OMG, RAPH GOT A LOT OF DEVELOPMENT IN THE MOVIES," let me make something VERY clear.
THE MOVIES.
ARE NOT.
RELEVANT.

Just because Raph got development in the movies DOESN'T mean he shouldn't get development in the show. No one's saying for Donnie and Leo to stop getting development all together, just give Mikey and Raph some.



yeah nowhere in my response was I saying that Raph had MAJOR focus in that movie. The turtles didn't really show up till 20 minutes into the movie, it barely felt about them. I only meant that he had more focus than the other turtles.
I know you bring up Leo, but i don't feel like watching that movie again, but it's clear that Raph was the focus of the 2014 movie compared to the others.

I think he needs more focus in the show, it's what i've said before too.

[jenna]

Mutating Raphael into Tokka is not something I want to see. Raphael has so far turned into a Kraang, a flower, a turkey... Am I forgetting one? Can we please just have a Raph-centric episode without him having to turn into something or someone? Surely he could undergo some development just as "Raphael". None of the other turtles have to turn into something to get development.

[GoldMutant]

Mutating Raphael into Tokka is not something I want to see. Raphael has so far turned into a Kraang, a flower, a turkey... Am I forgetting one? Can we please just have a Raph-centric episode without him having to turn into something or someone? Surely he could undergo some development just as "Raphael". None of the other turtles have to turn into something to get development.

Guess I was thinking of it at the time, so apologies. If Slash mutates into Tokka instead, I think it's better development for Raphael. Perhaps he leads the Mighty Mutanimals in Slash's place or goes solo out of frustration and guilt?

As for the constant changing, it's the writers doing it. I agree it's annoying, same with making him out of character in Clash of the Mutanimals.

Also, #SmoothPineappletello

[Shark_Blade]

Mutating Raphael into Tokka is not something I want to see. Raphael has so far turned into a Kraang, a flower, a turkey... Am I forgetting one? Can we please just have a Raph-centric episode without him having to turn into something or someone? Surely he could undergo some development just as "Raphael". None of the other turtles have to turn into something to get development.

Donnie turned into a pineapple once..

[Amaranthus]

Donnie turned into a pineapple once..

What episode was that?
God, I hate being behind.
Also, he turned into a worm once.

[GoldMutant]

What episode was that?
God, I hate being behind.
Also, he turned into a worm once.

The latest episode The Deadly Venom. I won't spoil what happens though, but that's where it happens.

[Amaranthus]

The latest episode The Deadly Venom. I won't spoil what happens though, but that's where it happens.

Heh, second time I've asked what episode something is from and it turns out it's a new one I haven't seen yet. I'm behind a lot. I saw Battle for New York a week ago, they haven't aired new episodes since.

[GoldMutant]

Heh, second time I've asked what episode something is from and it turns out it's a new one I haven't seen yet. I'm behind a lot. I saw Battle for New York a week ago, they haven't aired new episodes since.

Really? That really stinks man. :(

Since they'll be airing the Noxious Avenger to the Deadly Venom over the Sundays leading to the next three episodes, you can get mostly caught up. Otherwise, go to watchcartoonsonline.net, it has all the episodes of the show so far and other cartoons as well. Hope this helps Amaranthus. :)

[Amaranthus]

Really? That really stinks man. :(

Since they'll be airing the Noxious Avenger to the Deadly Venom over the Sundays leading to the next three episodes, you can get mostly caught up. Otherwise, go to watchcartoonsonline.net, it has all the episodes of the show so far and other cartoons as well. Hope this helps Amaranthus. :)

Nah, I don't watch online (bandwidth) and I'm actually used to the Dutch dub voices now. I can wait. It's really rewarding.

[GoldMutant]

Nah, I don't watch online (bandwidth) and I'm actually used to the Dutch dub voices now. I can wait. It's really rewarding.

Ah, okay. :)

I won't say anything of the new episodes then to you to prevent spoilers.

[jenna]

Also, #SmoothPineappletello

Donnie turned into a pineapple once..

:o Donnie turned into a what-now?

The latest episode The Deadly Venom. I won't spoil what happens though, but that's where it happens.

That episode hasn't aired in the UK yet, so apologies - I take back my previous comment. But... a pineapple????? That's almost as bad as a flower.

Sorry - going off topic. Ahem. Dear Nick, More Raph please?

[srmff]

What episode was that?
God, I hate being behind.
Also, he turned into a worm once.

In Eyes of the Chimera his head turned into a worm. It didn't really but was animated into a worm as a joke like the pineapple.

[GoldMutant]

:o Donnie turned into a what-now?

That episode hasn't aired in the UK yet, so apologies - I take back my previous comment. But... a pineapple????? That's almost as bad as a flower.

Sorry - going off topic. Ahem. Dear Nick, More Raph please?

It's fine, I got us off topic because of bringing up Tokka. But as stated below, the pineapple isn't permanent, it's more of a visual gag jenna, not like Raphael turned into a plant.

[victory_angel]

Yeah the pineapple thing is just a hallucination.

As for Raphael being mutated into Tokka that would have its own drama with it. And also Raph undergoes a second mutation in the Mirage comics.

Donnie undergoes this in the 2k3

If it happens to Donnie then that gives him another plot line that he is taking from another character

[jenna]

But as stated below, the pineapple isn't permanent, it's more of a visual gag jenna, not like Raphael turned into a plant.

That's a relief! Thanks :)

Yeah the pineapple thing is just a hallucination.

As for Raphael being mutated into Tokka that would have its own drama with it. And also Raph undergoes a second mutation in the Mirage comics.

Donnie undergoes this in the 2k3

If it happens to Donnie then that gives him another plot line that he is taking from another character

Vol 4 collapsed soon after; 2k3 had a cancelled series and then lapsed into Fast Forward soon afterwards. It also happened in the Red Sky series, which didn't last much longer. Turning one of the main turtles into a monster reeks of last-resort storytelling. The Nick writers can do better than that (I hope...)

Just my view. Not criticising those who want to see this. I know plenty would disagree with me.

I'd be ok with secondary mutations on secondary characters like Slash, as GoldMutant suggested. But not one of the main turtles.

[GoldMutant]

That's a relief! Thanks :)



Vol 4 collapsed soon after; 2k3 had a cancelled series and then lapsed into Fast Forward soon afterwards. It also happened in the Red Sky series, which didn't last much longer. Turning one of the main turtles into a monster reeks of last-resort storytelling. The Nick writers can do better than that (I hope...)

Just my view. Not criticising those who want to see this. I know plenty would disagree with me.

I'd be ok with secondary mutations on secondary characters like Slash, as GoldMutant suggested. But not one of the main turtles.


Not a problem. :)

I'm still unaware of the comics, but the 2k3 series did have Good Genes for mutating Donatello like victoryangel pointed out and it's one of the best arcs of that series. The Red Sky seasons resulted from a failed fourth live-action film too, basing it off of Raphael's supposed design.

It wouldn't be entirely a last-resort, but if played right can work for the correct character. Like I said, even if predictable, Slash becoming Tokka opens numerous potential ideas for Raph to develop with.

[Warhorse]

I just don't see why they won't have an episode where they tell how Raph got his scar. I mean, it's right there in plain view, why not just get it out. And why not have an episode detailing how the Turtles chose the weapons that they did.

[Shark_Blade]

Cause there's no story to tell. When the bowl fell down into the sewer he already has that lightning bolt harry potter scar.

[victory_angel]

I just don't see why they won't have an episode where they tell how Raph got his scar. I mean, it's right there in plain view, why not just get it out. And why not have an episode detailing how the Turtles chose the weapons that they did.

It was mentioned in the Nick Turtles section of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles:The Ultimate visual history that they would talk about the chip in Raph's shell and how it ties to his anger. So they will do it, they just haven't had the opportunity yet.

[jenna]

It was mentioned in the Nick Turtles section of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles:The Ultimate visual history that they would talk about the chip in Raph's shell and how it ties to his anger. So they will do it, they just haven't had the opportunity yet.

Please could you tell me which page? I can't seem to find any mention of it.

[victory_angel]

Please could you tell me which page? I can't seem to find any mention of it.

The quote is from Brian Auman and it's on page 181.s

The full quote is

"With each new season, we talk about elements from the original comic and cartoon that we want to incorporate into the season. We try to fit it in organically. We don't plan out every little aspect of the season, just the broad strokes. The Turtles definitely grow, but you don't want them to change all that much. You don't want Raph to lose his hot temper or Mikey to suddenly understand why he's acting like a goof. That said, we discover things about them that will broaden their characters for sure. Like why Raph is hot tempered, and how that ties into the crack in his shell...that kind of thing."

[jenna]

The quote is from Brian Auman and it's on page 181.s

The full quote is

"With each new season, we talk about elements from the original comic and cartoon that we want to incorporate into the season. We try to fit it in organically. We don't plan out every little aspect of the season, just the broad strokes. The Turtles definitely grow, but you don't want them to change all that much. You don't want Raph to lose his hot temper or Mikey to suddenly understand why he's acting like a goof. That said, we discover things about them that will broaden their characters for sure. Like why Raph is hot tempered, and how that ties into the crack in his shell...that kind of thing."

Aw thanks, victory_angel. I do hope that comes to fruition soon - Like many fans I'm really curious as to what happened there.

[Shark_Blade]

I hope that will turn out true. They still haven't done the toddler turtles episode...

[Papenbrook]

I hope that will turn out true. They still haven't done the toddler turtles episode...


Unfortunately, I doubt it will come true. These are the same guys that said Mutagen Man would play a bigger role in season two. Look at how that turned out.

[Ashwolf]

Unfortunately, I doubt it will come true. These are the same guys that said Mutagen Man would play a bigger role in season two. Look at how that turned out.

Don't really remember but was it specifically stated that he would have a bigger During s2? Cause it could be he has a bigger role in the special retromutagen needed 4 karai

[Warhorse]

Unfortunately, I doubt it will come true. These are the same guys that said Mutagen Man would play a bigger role in season two. Look at how that turned out.

Yeah, but in all honesty, he wasn't exactly a hit. It seemed to me he was actually more of a miss than a hit, so they probably just dropped that story arc altogether. It happens.

[GoldMutant]

Yeah, but in all honesty, he wasn't exactly a hit. It seemed to me he was actually more of a miss than a hit, so they probably just dropped that story arc altogether. It happens.

I don't entirely think it's the idea dropped. RCS is usually busy as the voice of Sonic the Hedgehog and other video game roles, that might be a contributing factor to why MM got so limited to small appearances outside the idea dropping. If Roger wasn't busy, Mutagen Man would have had a larger role like he was suppose to.

[Jephael]

Can we please just have a Raph-centric episode without him having to turn into something or someone? Surely he could undergo some development just as "Raphael". None of the other turtles have to turn into something to get development.

What about when Mikey got Shell-Acne?

[jenna]

What about when Mikey got Shell-Acne?

Personally I would argue that Mikey with shellacne was completely different. He was in his own body. He was still Mikey.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Unfortunately, I doubt it will come true. These are the same guys that said Mutagen Man would play a bigger role in season two. Look at how that turned out.

They also said that they would 'explain where Raph got that crack on his shell' and such...that never happened either.

[Ninturtle]

They also said that they would 'explain where Raph got that crack on his shell' and such...that never happened either.

That could still happen , complain about that when the show's over.

[JTH]

Raph gets plenty of focus.

If I ever want to see a traumatic episode centered around Raph, I just come on this forum. :lol: