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Panda_Kahn_fan
05-09-2015, 10:50 AM
I know I’m going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is just my opinion, you can totally disagree and that’s not a problem. This was born out of a post I made in another thread of this forum.

Okay, I was thinking again about the whole Yoshi/Saki back story, as it exists across most versions of TMNT, and I began to think about how such a ting could work in a modern setting, in a way that doesn‘t feel like an orientalist take on the shinobi/the warped western perception on what Japanese ‘honor‘ actually is/was. Just some ideas I was thinking about;

-firstly, let’s toss out the idea of the foot as some ‘super-duper secret mystical ninja clan’ that somehow survived the peace Tokugowa brought about at the beginning of the Edo, and then somehow survived an age entirely devoid of Ninja work, THEN somehow survived unchanged through the Meji restoration, THEN made it overseas in the East Asian immigrant community to New York, surviving competition from the tong and the triads, only to resurface in modern day New York.

Yeah, if a pack of sixteenth century stereotyped anachronisms go running atop the rooftops of NYC dressed in bunraku performer uniforms, they’re going to get shot down. The criminal underworld is not going to hire a group of weirdoes in Halloween costumes to assassinate anyone. The concept is beyond ‘suspension of disbelief’ into the outright laughable. And no, I don’t take other comic book ninja clans seriously, ethier (except for the ashrikage, and even they are pushing it to the point of disbelief).

Even IDW went against this goofy trend, by having the foot be in Feudal Japan, then become a yakuza based crime organization in the modern world, before Karai took charge and guided them back on the path of the shin obi.

-No, lets look towards where you would actually find modern Ninja- reeinactors, reconstructions who studied Shinobi from books and from the few remaining practitioners, and seek to keep the ancient art alive. These modern teachers are where you would find people learning the art of ninjitsu, carrying on the idealized trappings of the ninja and their art- no clan honor B.S., no running around trying to do the work of a modern mercenary with Sengoku-era tools. Here, you would find a modern Hamato Yoshi and Ororku Saki, training under one of these modern masters as enthusiasts for this nearly vanished martial art, instead of being actual assassins.

-Where do the foot come from, you ask? Simple… Saki is from a powerful yakuza family, and in his enthusiasm for the martial art, models the crime family on a sengoku-era ninja clan. He combines modern weapons and tools with the weapons and techquines of the past. A Kevlar-armored mercenary, armed with a katana and a sawed-off uzi, is going to be taken VERY seriously!

-Hamato Yoshi is a modern Japanese Ninja Practitioner, one of these guys who practices the ancient martial art to keep it alive. Having immigrated from Japan to New York teach ninjitsu to people in stunt work and the television and film industry, he is a good and honorable man with a good sense of ethics. After the death of his wife, Tang Shen, Yoshi decided to avert his loneliness by going to the pet store to buy a pet. While looking around at the various pets, Yoshi gets bit by a rat in a cAge that manages to pierce his skin. Finally, he decides to buy four turtles, and leaves the shop with them in a glass bowl.

But as he was leaving the pet store, a TCRI truck, careening out of control, lost a canister that was sent flying, and smashed all over Yoshi, and the four turtles in the open bowl he was carrying. Yoshi stumbled into an alleyway, dropping the bowl, as a startling metamorphosis took place. Finding himself with a new-found adopted family, Yoshi- now splinter- quietly cleans out his old apartment, and moves himself and his new family into an abandoned subway terminal that connects to the sewers.

Over the next fifteen years, Splinter teaches his adopted children (filling the void left by his dead wife in his heart) teaches his four sons the art of ninjitsu- not only to defend themselves from a world that would never accept them, but also to defend the world above from monstrous threats. (And don’t even start on the ‘ninjas are assassins’ thing, are those modern practitioners shady martial arts assassins? Yet we still call them ‘ninja!)

-The ‘vengeance’ angle? Saki and Yoshi were students together, learning ninjitsu together under the same Recreationist master. Both fell in love with the same woman, Tang Shen- a Chinese worker living in Japan on a temporary visa. Both tried to court her, but Yoshi won her heart. Shortly after they married, Ski snuck into their apartment and killed her, and a grief-stricken Yoshi decides to move to America. It isn’t until years later that yoshi learns the truth. It’s a simple revenge tale over the death of a loved one- you don’t need the feudal ninja clan to do that.

-You don’t need to have Yoshi or Saki be members of an anachronistic clan, running off of a code of honor few in Japan even follow any more. The story of vengeance, jealousy, and rivalry transcends those trappings. If you’re going to SET the story in the sengoku, then by all means, use those elements! But I’d personally like to see something a little less stereotypical, and all little less Hollywood ninja. Again, you’re all free to disagree with me, just please do so politely, thank you!

Wolfie65
05-10-2015, 07:34 AM
Almost all comic books, movies, TV shows, and even novels have enough holes to drive an entire fleet of trucks through if you overthink them.
How did they get their weapons?
How do they get money (for pizza, etc.)?
How can turtles even move in NYC temperatures between October and April?
And so on......

Luckyday
05-10-2015, 08:47 AM
I know I’m going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is just my opinion, you can totally disagree and that’s not a problem. This was born out of a post I made in another thread of this forum.

Okay, I was thinking again about the whole Yoshi/Saki back story, as it exists across most versions of TMNT, and I began to think about how such a ting could work in a modern setting, in a way that doesn‘t feel like an orientalist take on the shinobi/the warped western perception on what Japanese ‘honor‘ actually is/was. Just some ideas I was thinking about;

-firstly, let’s toss out the idea of the foot as some ‘super-duper secret mystical ninja clan’ that somehow survived the peace Tokugowa brought about at the beginning of the Edo, and then somehow survived an age entirely devoid of Ninja work, THEN somehow survived unchanged through the Meji restoration, THEN made it overseas in the East Asian immigrant community to New York, surviving competition from the tong and the triads, only to resurface in modern day New York.

Yeah, if a pack of sixteenth century stereotyped anachronisms go running atop the rooftops of NYC dressed in bunraku performer uniforms, they’re going to get shot down. The criminal underworld is not going to hire a group of weirdoes in Halloween costumes to assassinate anyone. The concept is beyond ‘suspension of disbelief’ into the outright laughable. And no, I don’t take other comic book ninja clans seriously, ethier (except for the ashrikage, and even they are pushing it to the point of disbelief).

Even IDW went against this goofy trend, by having the foot be in Feudal Japan, then become a yakuza based crime organization in the modern world, before Karai took charge and guided them back on the path of the shin obi.

-No, lets look towards where you would actually find modern Ninja- reeinactors, reconstructions who studied Shinobi from books and from the few remaining practitioners, and seek to keep the ancient art alive. These modern teachers are where you would find people learning the art of ninjitsu, carrying on the idealized trappings of the ninja and their art- no clan honor B.S., no running around trying to do the work of a modern mercenary with Sengoku-era tools. Here, you would find a modern Hamato Yoshi and Ororku Saki, training under one of these modern masters as enthusiasts for this nearly vanished martial art, instead of being actual assassins.

-Where do the foot come from, you ask? Simple… Saki is from a powerful yakuza family, and in his enthusiasm for the martial art, models the crime family on a sengoku-era ninja clan. He combines modern weapons and tools with the weapons and techquines of the past. A Kevlar-armored mercenary, armed with a katana and a sawed-off uzi, is going to be taken VERY seriously!

-Hamato Yoshi is a modern Japanese Ninja Practitioner, one of these guys who practices the ancient martial art to keep it alive. Having immigrated from Japan to New York teach ninjitsu to people in stunt work and the television and film industry, he is a good and honorable man with a good sense of ethics. After the death of his wife, Tang Shen, Yoshi decided to avert his loneliness by going to the pet store to buy a pet. While looking around at the various pets, Yoshi gets bit by a rat in a cAge that manages to pierce his skin. Finally, he decides to buy four turtles, and leaves the shop with them in a glass bowl.

But as he was leaving the pet store, a TCRI truck, careening out of control, lost a canister that was sent flying, and smashed all over Yoshi, and the four turtles in the open bowl he was carrying. Yoshi stumbled into an alleyway, dropping the bowl, as a startling metamorphosis took place. Finding himself with a new-found adopted family, Yoshi- now splinter- quietly cleans out his old apartment, and moves himself and his new family into an abandoned subway terminal that connects to the sewers.

Over the next fifteen years, Splinter teaches his adopted children (filling the void left by his dead wife in his heart) teaches his four sons the art of ninjitsu- not only to defend themselves from a world that would never accept them, but also to defend the world above from monstrous threats. (And don’t even start on the ‘ninjas are assassins’ thing, are those modern practitioners shady martial arts assassins? Yet we still call them ‘ninja!)

-The ‘vengeance’ angle? Saki and Yoshi were students together, learning ninjitsu together under the same Recreationist master. Both fell in love with the same woman, Tang Shen- a Chinese worker living in Japan on a temporary visa. Both tried to court her, but Yoshi won her heart. Shortly after they married, Ski snuck into their apartment and killed her, and a grief-stricken Yoshi decides to move to America. It isn’t until years later that yoshi learns the truth. It’s a simple revenge tale over the death of a loved one- you don’t need the feudal ninja clan to do that.

-You don’t need to have Yoshi or Saki be members of an anachronistic clan, running off of a code of honor few in Japan even follow any more. The story of vengeance, jealousy, and rivalry transcends those trappings. If you’re going to SET the story in the sengoku, then by all means, use those elements! But I’d personally like to see something a little less stereotypical, and all little less Hollywood ninja. Again, you’re all free to disagree with me, just please do so politely, thank you!

Are you kidding? I ****ing love this idea!http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/omges1.png

You are one of the few people who really thought this through on how ninjas work in modern day.

Mine suggestion was create an alternate history where ninjutsu wasn't banned but blended into the imperial military until most clans went rogue after world war 2 and became international mercenaries.

Panda_Kahn_fan
05-10-2015, 10:41 AM
Are you kidding? I ****ing love this idea!http://www.narutoforums.com/images/smilies/series2/omges1.png

You are one of the few people who really thought this through on how ninjas work in modern day.

Mine suggestion was create an alternate history where ninjutsu wasn't banned but blended into the imperial military until most clans went rogue after world war 2 and became international mercenaries.

YES! Exactly! that is the kind of idea that explains what a shinobi clan is doing in the modern world! I can never understand how comics put ninjas into settings in which they would not be found, without a reasonable explanation! Also, blood feuds, vengeance, clan rivalries, etc... these traits were not as prevalent in Japanese culture as western comics and Hollywood likes to pretend. Much like clan colors, these elements are from other warrior cultures, and westerners superimposed these elements into Nihon culture.


I think the reason the TMNT was written that way was because almost all of the 'ninja' comics from that period were written by comic book writers who loved martial arts films, didn't do an ounce of researcher into the rich and vast folklore surrounding the ninja, and just crammed in anything that sounded 'asian-y' or 'martial arts-y' into thier comics! You do NOT pull influences from a Chinese kung-fu movie in making a story about Japanese shinobi, oy vey! :roll:

MsMarvelDuckie
05-11-2015, 10:57 PM
I like your ideas. I've been trying to come up with a few explanations of my own, and one that I came up with that was fairly close to what you did here was in my "mirror-world" tale where Splinter and Saki's roles and views were reversed (and thus Splinter and the turtles were the bad guys, with Shredder being the good guy) was to have Yoshi using the Foot as hired killers and thieves for various Yakuza factions and government or corporate assassinations and espionage.

When he stated turning it into an organization of "evil" (IE- taking any job no matter how immoral or cold-blooded) Saki took it on himself to restore the clan's honor by taking over by force, and then turned them into international trouble-shooters for good causes, dealing with missions that governments couldn't be directly involved in due to politics, against terrorists and other threats. Yoshi was enraged, and swore to kill his "upstart student" who had taken away his livelihood. Shredder had met Krang (a scientist and statesman who accidentally stranded himself on Earth) and gave Yoshi an ultimatum- live in dishonor as a rat, or do the honorable thing and commit seppuku- Splinter chose the rat, and even stole some mutagen to build his own clan of killers in revenge.

It wouldn't be hard to do the same thing, but just reverse the who did what part to make Saki the bad guy, and make Splinter using the mutagen to create his own family, that Shredder later discovers and decides to destroy out of spite.

Panda_Kahn_fan
05-12-2015, 08:42 AM
That's actually a clever and interesting take on the whole thing, I love how you reverse the roles there from what people usually know. And it sets up for an interesting dynamic between the turtles and shredder- are the TMNT really on the right side? this creates a lot of good storytelling possibilities! An allows for the darker and gritter ninja assassins for this 'mirror, mirror' style-world! :)

My big problem with the tmnt we have now is how were see plot elements and situations that belong in the feudal era, are forced into a modern marital arts story. If the foot are a modern ninja clan, founded after world war 2 and patterning themselves on the old ways, and adopting a 'code of 'honor' in trying to emulate the past... well, that would make a bit more sense.

Luckyday
05-12-2015, 02:37 PM
I wonder why no one writes about the espionage side of being a ninja since that was mostly his/her role in war fare rather then just the assassin side?

Samurais are relics of a era that only got by blood relations and connections of an aristocratic system, but for ninjas it is a essential for them to be flexible to get behind the times. Know thy enemy and all that.

Section 9 from Ghost in the Shell is the closest thing to my mind when I think how a group of modern ninjas would act. Not so much a clan but in a modern world, a unit in a government that deals with counter terrorism and homeland security.

I imagine that like the term "kunoichi" that they would have create a entirely new word for "ninja that specialized in computer hacking".

I guess that's why the character, Donatello, was created for ninja characters to be able to work in a modern setting.

MsMarvelDuckie
05-12-2015, 10:48 PM
That's actually a clever and interesting take on the whole thing, I love how you reverse the roles there from what people usually know. And it sets up for an interesting dynamic between the turtles and shredder- are the TMNT really on the right side? this creates a lot of good storytelling possibilities! An allows for the darker and gritter ninja assassins for this 'mirror, mirror' style-world! :)

My big problem with the tmnt we have now is how were see plot elements and situations that belong in the feudal era, are forced into a modern marital arts story. If the foot are a modern ninja clan, founded after world war 2 and patterning themselves on the old ways, and adopting a 'code of 'honor' in trying to emulate the past... well, that would make a bit more sense.


Ah, well, no, in this case, the TMNT are definitely NOT on the "right side" and they know it, but are in a situation where they are cowed and threatened into doing what he wants, while also having been ingrained with his views from infancy. Mikey and Donnie in particular are kind of twisted in this version, but all are "damaged goods". Which makes Saki's desire to destroy them all much more justifiable. Though Leo, at least, does question what they do, if only to himself....