Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?

[Papenbrook]

In the first episode of Season 3, Leo was able to defeat the Creep, even though he was still injured. Meanwhile, his brothers, April, and Casey didn't do anything to help him. Raph even got turned into a plant!


In "Clash of the Mutanimals", he was the one that snapped Raph out of the mind control, not Donnie or Mikey.

In "The Deadly Venom", he was able to use a healing technique perfectly, even though he only saw it once. In addition, he was the only one that was taught said technique. In the end of the episode, Leo was so praised continually, that it felt ridiculous.

I really think the writers are slowly turning him into a Marty Stu. Do you agree with me?

[Werecat]

Of course I agree that Leo is turning into a Marty Sue. He was perfect in the earlier seasons because he was flawed and wasn't the best fighter but still tried his hardest,that spirit was admirable. Now the writers want the world of TMNT to revolve around Leo; Leo gets special training, Leo gets to defeat the bad guy, Leo masters everything, Everyone praises Leo. Those pinpoints are generalization of the current Leo and it is sickening. This whole Marty Sue Leo needs to stop, I do not want another 2k3 Leo!

[Leofan26]

Pish, Leo's the leader he's got to become a better fighter and leader as seasons move on or else he'd be standing still as a character and he wanted to be better to protect his family. After that last attack the Shredder did on him in season two he strived to become better.

Besides you guy's would complain if he didn't get better, admit it. Just like how fans complain about how Mikey gets repeative stories and never maturing, Raph being treated like trash not becoming the Raph you guy's know and love Blah blah blah. You'd say Leo isn't keeping his words on training to protect his brothers like what's going on with One Piece there Captian Luffy.

I'm fine with how things are working with him, after the crap he went through in season one final and two with Shredders attack, come on.

[neatoman]

Isn't Leo kind of the central character of TMNT as a whole? I don't I just always felt that he was, the only exception I can think of is the FW cartoon, where they put their focus on Mikey because appearently kids liked it when he said Cowabunga. Everywhere else I mostly see Leo as the main character.

Anyway, I don't think Leo is a Mary Sue. I just think that because his defining trait outside of "the leader" is that he's a perfectionist, it makes sense that such a character would excel over his peers.

[Werecat]

Pish, Leo's the leader he's got to become a better fighter and leader as seasons move on or else he'd be standing still as a character and he wanted to be better to protect his family. After that last attack the Shredder did on him in season two he strived to become better.

Besides you guy's would complain if he didn't get better, admit it. Just like how fans complain about how Mikey gets repeative stories and never maturing, Raph being treated like trash not becoming the Raph you guy's know and love Blah blah blah. You'd say Leo isn't keeping his words on training to protect his brothers like what's going on with One Piece there Captian Luffy.

I'm fine with how things are working with him, after the crap he went through in season one final and two with Shredders attack, come on.
That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''

Isn't Leo kind of the central character of TMNT as a whole? I don't I just always felt that he was, the only exception I can think of is the FW cartoon, where they put their focus on Mikey because appearently kids liked it when he said Cowabunga. Everywhere else I mostly see Leo as the main character.

Anyway, I don't think Leo is a Mary Sue. I just think that because his defining trait outside of "the leader" is that he's a perfectionist, it makes sense that such a character would excel over his peers.
Leo is not the central character. TMNT is about four brothers. Leo excelling over his brothers with minimal effort and being praised by most is the definiton of a Marty Stu. It seems like you don't know what a Marty Stu is or is conflicted about Leo being classified as one. Leo does classify as a Marty Stu now because everyone praises him, he receives special treatment, he defeats all the bad guys alone.

[neatoman]

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''

Isn't overcoming one's flaws a form of character development? Granted he shouldn't become entirely flawless, but it is arguable that some character development is better than, let's say Raph learning not to be hothead two or three times just so he can forget that lesson for the next time he'll need to learn that lesson.

[Leofan26]

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''
Oh no, I'm not agreeing with what your saying on this, the horror! You call me narcissistic, look I was just responding to your question hoping not get insulted here. Excuse me for not thinking as season three Leo like the way you do.

I'm sure if your favorite character was being treated that you'd be thrilled. Want me to give you some word of advice your highness, try not insulting people who are taking there time to read your ridiculous question.

[srmff]

That is like the worst opinion ever. You want Leo to be better because you are just as narcissistic as the Marty Stu Leo; you simply want the world to revolve around you and your powers to be unmatched. When in reality you must face you are not the best at everything, you are flawed. Leo in the early seasons had flaws and still tried his hardest. Spirit is what defines Leo, not him being ''better than everyone''.

Now Leo's flaws are being patched over and the writers are bending the TMNT world to be lesser than Leo's capabilities, that is marty Stu. You make a weak argument especially when you defy the obvious truth. Try acknowledging that Leo is a marty stu and base your solution off that. Instead you are baiting for an argument with your confrontational opinion about how ''Leo should be the best''


Leo is not the central character. TMNT is about four brothers. Leo excelling over his brothers with minimal effort and being praised by most is the definiton of a Marty Stu. It seems like you don't know what a Marty Stu is or is conflicted about Leo being classified as one. Leo does classify as a Marty Stu now because everyone praises him, he receives special treatment, he defeats all the bad guys alone.

To me it makes sense that he'd be the most skilled if he trains the most. He puts in the work and it pays off. There's no need to undermine someone else's opinion and make quick judgements on a person's character.

[ImmaAxolotl]

Of course I agree that Leo is turning into a Marty Sue. He was perfect in the earlier seasons because he was flawed and wasn't the best fighter but still tried his hardest,that spirit was admirable. Now the writers want the world of TMNT to revolve around Leo; Leo gets special training, Leo gets to defeat the bad guy, Leo masters everything, Everyone praises Leo. Those pinpoints are generalization of the current Leo and it is sickening. This whole Marty Sue Leo needs to stop, I do not want another 2k3 Leo!

To me it makes sense that he'd be the most skilled if he trains the most. He puts in the work and it pays off. There's no need to undermine someone else's opinion and make quick judgements on a person's character.

Precisely! No version of Leo is a Marty Stu- just the turtle who works the hardest to be a good ninja and a good leader.

[Werecat]

Isn't overcoming one's flaws a form of character development? Granted he shouldn't become entirely flawless, but it is arguable that some character development is better than, let's say Raph learning not to be hothead two or three times just so he can forget that lesson for the next time he'll need to learn that lesson.
No, it is patching a character to be perfect in an imperfect world, a simple marty stu. Character progression, in my eyes, is a character facing problems that forces him to expand his knowledge while the flaws are still present. The flaws make the final climax more interesting and balances the world.

Raph learning to control his temper is an old plot that shouldn't have been used because his character needs the anger and rage. Taking the rage out of the Hulk or taking the bloodlust out of werewolves just leaves a husk of a character. Patching flaws just creates problems later on 'cause it decreases a character's longevity for a later storyline.

Oh no, I'm not agreeing with what your saying on this, the horror! You call me narcissistic, look I was just responding to your question hoping not get insulted here. Excuse me for not thinking as season three Leo like the way you do.

I'm sure if your favorite character was being treated that you'd be thrilled. Want me to give you some word of advice your highness, try not insulting people who are taking there time to read your ridiculous question.
The fact that you are responding by antagonizing me instead of trying to formulate a reasonable opinion on all of this just kinda proves my point. The best you can do instead of saying "LEO SHOULD BE BETTER" try saying why. Give me more reasons. Elaborate on your opinion. If it is truly reasonable I will eventually agree. Instead of defying the obvious truth that ''Leo is a Marty Stu" try formulating an opinion that does acknowledge it. Negligence of a obvious fact just serves to create turmoil.

To me it makes sense that he'd be the most skilled if he trains the most. He puts in the work and it pays off. There's no need to undermine someone else's opinion and make quick judgements on a person's character.
The problem isn't Leo's character. The problem is how the writers handle the characters. The writers are making plots were Leo is being treated as a Marty Stu while neglecting the other turtles. A Marty Stu is someone who receives special treatment and is revered by most as superior while having no flaws.

[CyberCubed]

No, he's not. Stop nitpicking every little thing a character does in the show. Some of you have no idea what "sues" actually are.

Go back to tumblr fanfiction.

[Leofan26]

No, it is patching a character to be perfect in an imperfect world, a simple marty stu. Character progression, in my eyes, is a character facing problems that forces him to expand his knowledge while the flaws are still present. The flaws make the final climax more interesting and balances the world.

Raph learning to control his temper is an old plot that shouldn't have been used because his character needs the anger and rage. Taking the rage out of the Hulk or taking the bloodlust out of werewolves just leaves a husk of a character. Patching flaws just creates problems later on 'cause it decreases a character's longevity for a later storyline.


The fact that you are responding by antagonizing me instead of trying to formulate a reasonable opinion on all of this just kinda proves my point. The best you can do instead of saying "LEO SHOULD BE BETTER" try saying why. Give me more reasons. Elaborate on your opinion. If it is truly reasonable I will eventually agree. Instead of defying the obvious truth that ''Leo is a Marty Stu" try formulating an opinion that does acknowledge it. Negligence of a obvious fact just serves to create turmoil.
I gave my opinion and you insulted me, I never at all said Leo should better I said I'm fine with his character like that. How about just accepting people for having different opinions than yours? Than maybe I'll try to have a mature conversation with you.

[Shark_Blade]

No, he's not. Stop nitpicking every little thing a character does in the show. Some of you have no idea what "sues" actually are.

Go back to tumblr fanfiction.

So you have the best idea of what it means? Explain then.

This should be interesting, lemme grab my popcorn.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

^ What Cubed said. (Sweet Mother, did I just type that??!! :teek: )

[Werecat]

I gave my opinion and you insulted me, I never at all said Leo should better I said I'm fine with his character like that. How about just accepting people for having different opinions than yours? Than maybe I'll try to have a mature conversation with you.
TMNT is about four brothers working as a team. TMNT Is not about Leo and friends. I have no trouble with Leo. The trouble is with the writers who treat Leo as a god instead of a warrior with flaws that still tries his best.

You may be okay with this Marty Stu Leo. But not everyone is a Leo fan. Marty/Mary Sues are also a symptom of a poorly constructed story. I like stories without Marty/Mary sues, is that such a crime?

edited: Nick TMNT, on average, is well written. Nick TMNT just fails to keep Marty/Mary Sues out of their storylines, a simple negative.

[IndigoErth]

No... They've created a stark contrast between Leo in the beginning of this series and today, which is awesome. The problem is, imo, not so much with him, but that the other three need the same. Their lack isn't fair to them, and isn't fair to Leo either that he starts to look this way to people because of it. Just catch the other three up.

Although I'd like to see him have occasional challenges/new skills to work on for a while, like that darn healing thing should have been and given more meaning and reason to learning it.

[Leofan26]

TMNT is about four brothers working as a team. TMNT Is not about Leo and friends. I have no trouble with Leo. The trouble is with the writers who treat Leo as a god instead of a warrior with flaws that still tries his best.

You may be okay with this Marty Stu Leo. But not everyone is a Leo fan. Marty/Mary Sues are also a symptom of a poorly constructed story. I like stories without Marty/Mary sues, is that such a crime?

edited: Nick TMNT, on average, is well written. Nick TMNT just fails to keep Marty/Mary Sues out of their storylines, a simple negative.

Than go cry to the writers about the things they've been doing with the characters, send death threats or whatever like all fans who don't get there way do. Don't get all hissy at people for having a different opinion in a thread you created asking some thing that people are just to responding to.

Time flies when your getting insulted for having a different opinion on things.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Reread his first post again, Werecat. NOWHERE did he say Leo should be "better THAN everyone" Just that he should "get better at protecting/leading them". Jeez, don't start taking stuff out of context, man. And I agree with him- Leo is growing and improving as a leader and fighter, and while the Deadly Venom" episode might be a little over the top, it's no reason to start declaring him a Marty Stu. You're reaching, here. In context of that episode, he SHOULD be praised and treated as the hero, because he WAS. But it's not as if he does that in every episode.

And Mighty Mutanimals showed him snapping Raph out of the mind-control BY INSULTING HIM. Think about that for a minute. Who ELSE would have even known to do that or could have gotten away with it? Mikey? Nope- Raph would've made mincemeat out of him. Donnie isn't mean-spirited enough or bold enough to do that, but Leo has the kind of rivalry and button-pushing relationship with him to make it work. No one else could have challenged him like that and gotten away with it, because they aren't as strong or as skilled as the "A Team" fighters- aka Raph and Leo. The writers established this LONG ago- you just missed it.


Edit: Thank you, Indigo! I agree. I WISH they'd do this more with Mikey, too. jI LOVED how they treated him at the end of Season two, but once again, he's regressed to his earlier self. Why they can't make him more like he was in the Dimension X episode or even in the Pizza Face one (because I'd love to see him with that hard edge a little more often) is beyond me. At LEAST give him a little more maturity like he started to have there or in the Croaking one!

[Werecat]

Than go cry to the writers about the things they've been doing with the characters, send death threats or whatever like all fans who don't get there way do. Don't get all hissy at people for having a different opinion in a thread you created asking some thing that people are just to responding to.

Time flies when your getting insulted for having a different opinion on things.
You're the only one trying to escalate things about a simple word I said. Narcissism is a terrible mental state to be in. Most people tend to gravitate towards characters that mirror themselves. Perhaps you like this Marty Stu Leo because you have a sense of grandeur about yourself too. You seem to lash out at people that have a differing opinion. I never once lashed out at you. Stating psychological traits isn't an attack unless the named psychosis is present.

Not only that but you fail to acknowledge my challenge to actually present your opinion in a reasonable way. Elaborate on your opinion. You said you can't have a conversation with someone who lashes out. Yet here I am still calm as ever while you are trying your best to lash out at me. Perhaps you don't have a reasonable opinion on this whole "Marty Stu Leo" because you refuse to believe the obvious truths in favor of your own opinion.

Reread his first post again, Werecat. NOWHERE did he say Leo should be "better THAN everyone" Just that he should "get better at protecting/leading them". Jeez, don't start taking stuff out of context, man. And I agree with him- Leo is growing and improving as a leader and fighter, and while the Deadly Venom" episode might be a little over the top, it's no reason to start declaring him a Marty Stu. You're reaching, here. In context of that episode, he SHOULD be praised and treated as the hero, because he WAS. But it's not as if he does that in every episode. Can you reread my post without a red haze? Is he your friend? This type of bias behavior doesn't help anyone. Omitting my context in favor of your friend is hypocritical too, especially when you criticize about out of context stuff.

The thing is he did say Leo should be better because he is the central character. Or somethin like that. Paraphrasing, ya know.

The episode does declare Leo as Marty Stu because it checks all the symptoms of a Marty Stu. Anywhere during the episode they could have easily given reasons as to why the other turtles couldn't do it. Why the others didn't receive special training. None of these ''whys'' are answered which just further establishes that Leo is a Marty Stu.

[Papenbrook]

Reread his first post again, Werecat. NOWHERE did he say Leo should be "better THAN everyone" Just that he should "get better at protecting/leading them". Jeez, don't start taking stuff out of context, man. And I agree with him- Leo is growing and improving as a leader and fighter, and while the Deadly Venom" episode might be a little over the top, it's no reason to start declaring him a Marty Stu. You're reaching, here. In context of that episode, he SHOULD be praised and treated as the hero, because he WAS. But it's not as if he does that in every episode.

And Mighty Mutanimals showed him snapping Raph out of the mind-control BY INSULTING HIM. Think about that for a minute. Who ELSE would have even known to do that or could have gotten away with it? Mikey? Nope- Raph would've made mincemeat out of him. Donnie isn't mean-spirited enough or bold enough to do that, but Leo has the kind of rivalry and button-pushing relationship with him to make it work. No one else could have challenged him like that and gotten away with it, because they aren't as strong or as skilled as the "A Team" fighters- aka Raph and Leo. The writers established this LONG ago- you just missed it.


Edit: Thank you, Indigo! I agree. I WISH they'd do this more with Mikey, too. jI LOVED how they treated him at the end of Season two, but once again, he's regressed to his earlier self. Why they can't make him more like he was in the Dimension X episode or even in the Pizza Face one (because I'd love to see him with that hard edge a little more often) is beyond me. At LEAST give him a little more maturity like he started to have there or in the Croaking one!


I have never seen anyone else praise Donnie, Mikey, and Raph like Leo in the latest episode. When they save the day, they almost always get nothing in return. No praise, no attention, no nothing!

Mikey could have replaced Leo in when the latter was insulting Raph. Remember when he got Timothy's attention when he turned into a blob? Or the multiple times he insulted Raph throughout the series? Mikey could have done something.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

You're the only one trying to escalate things about a simple word I said. Narcissism is a terrible mental state to be in. Most people tend to gravitate towards characters that mirror themselves. Perhaps you like this Marty Stu Leo because you have a sense of grandeur about yourself too. You seem to lash out at people that have a differing opinion. I never once lashed out at you. Stating psychological traits isn't an attack unless the named psychosis is present.

Not only that but you fail to acknowledge my challenge to actually present your opinion in a reasonable way. Elaborate on your opinion. You said you can't have a conversation with someone who lashes out. Yet here I am still calm as ever while you are trying your best to lash out at me. Perhaps you don't have a reasonable opinion on this whole "Marty Stu Leo" because you refuse to believe the obvious truths in favor of your own opinion.



And herein lies your problem. Without knowing ANYTHING about another poster, you make ASSUMPTIONS about them being a narcissist, when there is NO evidence to suggest this, and nothing in his post point to it. He stated his opinion, and how he was fine with Leo's treatment, and because it ran contrary to your pre-conceived notion of Leo as a Marty Stu, you called him a narcissist, and claimed his opinion was "the worst ever". THAT is the pot calling the kettle black if I EVER saw it! He presented his opinion in a perfectly reasonable way in the FIRST POST. But you ignored everything except the "BETTER" part, and latched onto that as if he was saying Leo should be better THAN the others, when he didn't. It's called context, Wildcat. And the only one escalating things here, is YOU. YOU started making unfounded accusations about his psychological traits. And FYI, having someone call you a name like that would piss ANYONE off, whether they have said psychosis or not. It's offensive and rude. And arrogant.

[Meliwen]

No... They've created a stark contrast between Leo in the beginning of this series and today, which is awesome. The problem is, imo, not so much with him, but that the other three need the same. Their lack isn't fair to them, and isn't fair to Leo either that he starts to look this way to people because of it. Just catch the other three up.
^ This. What we see is character development for Leo, and that's great. But when you compare how the season has treated Leo (lots and lots of focus, all positive things), and then to how it treated the other turtles (less focus, episodes built around their faults), there's enough difference to make what Leo has achieved to really stand out, and scenes like the end of Deadly Venom to get on some people's nerves. If the others had something going for them it wouldn't be such a problem.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I have never seen anyone else praise Donnie, Mikey, and Raph like Leo in the latest episode. When they save the day, they almost always get nothing in return. No praise, no attention, no nothing!

Mikey could have replaced Leo in when the latter was insulting Raph. Remember when he got Timothy's attention when he turned into a blob? Or the multiple times he insulted Raph throughout the series? Mikey could have done something.


It's true they don't get the "praise" that he did, but then again, none of them has learned a completely new skill and used it to save ALL of them, either. Like I said, in the context of THAT episode, it makes sense. A little over the top? Yes. Symptom of a Marty Stu? Not really. Usually, that's April's schtick. She has had powers for three seasons now, used them to save everyone MULTIPLE times, and gets praised for it all the time. If anyone on the show is one, SHE is. Leo's just learning something new, and using it.

As for Mikey, he's usually the "bait" in most cases, which is what he did in the Mutagen Man one. That's a whole different situation than a mind-controlled brother. If he'd been the one to try to snap him out of it, Raph probably would've killed him before he snapped out of it. I don't think that's the response the writers were going for.... Leo at least had the skill level to hold his own while he did it.

[Leofan26]

You're the only one trying to escalate things about a simple word I said. Narcissism is a terrible mental state to be in. Most people tend to gravitate towards characters that mirror themselves. Perhaps you like this Marty Stu Leo because you have a sense of grandeur about yourself too. You seem to lash out at people that have a differing opinion. I never once lashed out at you. Stating psychological traits isn't an attack unless the named psychosis is present.

Not only that but you fail to acknowledge my challenge to actually present your opinion in a reasonable way. Elaborate on your opinion. You said you can't have a conversation with someone who lashes out. Yet here I am still calm as ever while you are trying your best to lash out at me. Perhaps you don't have a reasonable opinion on this whole "Marty Stu Leo" because you refuse to believe the obvious truths in favor of your own opinion.

Can you reread my post without a red haze? Is he your friend? This type of bias behavior doesn't help anyone. Omitting my context in favor of your friend is hypocritical too, especially when you criticize about out of context stuff.

The thing is he did say Leo should be better because he is the central character. Or somethin like that. Paraphrasing, ya know.

The episode does declare Leo as Marty Stu because it checks all the symptoms of a Marty Stu. Anywhere during the episode they could have easily given reasons as to why the other turtles couldn't do it. Why the others didn't receive special training. None of these ''whys'' are answered which just further establishes that Leo is a Marty Stu.
Oh for F sake, I did by no means say he was better. I said he should get flippin better. Your just making yourself look like a person who doesn't seem to able get his head out of the sky, go reread my post please before you make yourself look more foolish.

That's it I'm out of this thread before I knock my head against the wall from reading your posts.

[Mukouno]

I went with 'I don't know'.

As of right now I wouldn't say Leo is a Stu, but he may have shown signs of evolving into one lately.

Personally, for me a Sue/Stu doesn't qualify her-/himself as one simply because they're better than everyone else. Just because a character is the strongest does not make him/her a Mary or Marty. There are so many heroes who outshine their friends and comrades, but that's kind of the point, because they're the main characters. It's their story, so naturally they're the stars. I'm not familiar with other incarnations outside the nick show, but isn't Leo almost always the main character? Sure all turtles are main characters, but I mean among them he's the most important, isn't he?
Being exceptionally strong and talented is just one of many possible traits a Sue can have, as is stunning beauty, high intelligence, a tragic past and yadda yadda.

What really defines a Sue is their sheer importance to the plot. The whole universe seems to revolve around this character. He/She is the most important person in everyone's life, each and every character will be drawn to him/her and inexplicably prefer his/her company over that of anyone else, even if there's absolutely nothing likeable about them. Other characters don't seem to have a life or personality outside of worshipping their Sue. No matter how stubborn someone usually is, they'll agree with everything a Sue does and share his or her opinions on everything.
Furthermore, Sues will never face consequences for their actions, they can get away with stuff 'normal' people would be punished for. If they do something, no matter what, it's perfectly acceptable and always portrayed in a positive light and treated as a good thing. Nothing they do is bad.
That's what defines a Mary Sue imo, other traits such as having superior abilities and such are only minor traits that don't classify a Sue per se.

Of course everybody has their own definition of a Mary Sue, this is just mine. And Leo simply doesn't fulfill all that. Yet.
There's no denying that he has been getting the lions share of good and awesome moments in the recent episodes, like snapping Raph out of the mind control and thus becoming the actual hero of the episode, which was supposed to be about Raph... The writers did it again in The Deadly Venom, where Leo was praised to the skies a little bit too much, if you ask me. I mean, personal training with Splinter, learning this healing stuff in like no time at all and of course becoming an instant expert and especially the ending: Everybody praising him, with Raph saying that he and others couldn't do anything on their own and were practically useless and Splinter complimenting him for mastering a skill only few martial artists could use... :roll:
Writers, I get it.

However, all this has happened over the course of only 3 episodes and I think if it would be spread a bit more this wouldn't be nearly as annoying.
And as bad as The Deadly Venom was... It was still just one episode. Just because of one measly wirtten episode that treated a character badly I won't judge him differently. If they continue this development and treat Leo like that, then yes, I may call him a Stu someday. But just because of one ep? Nah, that'd be like suddenly disliking a favorite character just because he's royally screwed up once. I'm not that fickle. :lol:

[Werecat]

And herein lies your problem. Without knowing ANYTHING about another poster, you make ASSUMPTIONS about them being a narcissist, when there is NO evidence to suggest this, and nothing in his post point to it. He stated his opinion, and how he was fine with Leo's treatment, and because it ran contrary to your pre-conceived notion of Leo as a Marty Stu, you called him a narcissist, and claimed his opinion was "the worst ever". THAT is the pot calling the kettle black if I EVER saw it! He presented his opinion in a perfectly reasonable way in the FIRST POST. But you ignored everything except the "BETTER" part, and latched onto that as if he was saying Leo should be better THAN the others, when he didn't. It's called context, Wildcat. And the only one escalating things here, is YOU. YOU started making unfounded accusations about his psychological traits. And FYI, having someone call you a name like that would piss ANYONE off, whether they have said psychosis or not. It's offensive and rude. And arrogant.
Eh, you are barking up the wrong tree. If someone called me a name, especially psychology related, I wouldn't care. I am not detached from who I am. I am the type of person to challenge my critics by bettering myself. Also stop trying to write like "THIS IN EVERY SENTENCE AS IF IT HELPS TO MAKE YOU BE MORE BELIEVABLE WHEN IT REALLY DOESN'T"

Leo is a Marty Stu, ignoring the obvious doesn't make you look credible. If you want me to take you serious, try assuming Leo is marty stu and state your opinion with that in mind. It is something that most people have to learn to do; to answer the ''if''s were true.

To be honest, I would be surprised if you do prove that you are capable of viewing this from both sides. Acknowledging both sides tends to make less of a bias opinion. So far you and your friend are adamant about not acknowledging that Leo was a Marty Stu in Deadly Venom. Which really doesn't help you at all to convince me.

[Leofan26]

Eh, you are barking up the wrong tree. If someone called me a name, especially psychology related, I wouldn't care. I am not detached from who I am. I am the type of person to challenge my critics by bettering myself. Also stop trying to write like "THIS IN EVERY SENTENCE AS IF IT HELPS TO MAKE YOU BE MORE BELIEVABLE WHEN IT REALLY DOESN'T"

Leo is a Marty Stu, ignoring the obvious doesn't make you look credible. If you want me to take you serious, try assuming Leo is marty stu and state your opinion with that in mind. It is something that most people have to learn to do; to answer the ''if''s were true.

To be honest, I would be surprised if you do prove that you are capable of viewing this from both sides. Acknowledging both sides tends to make less of a bias opinion. So far you and your friend are adamant about not acknowledging that Leo was a Marty Stu in Deadly Venom. Which really doesn't help you at all to convince me.
No one was trying to convince of you of any thing or at least I wasn't, I was just giving a valid opinion of mine. I wasn't angry or annoyed with you at all till you insulted me, that's when things hit the fan for me. You need to treat other members on here with respect, your being really rude to people who don't agree with and frankly I'm done with it. Start treating people around here with more respect please, I'm asking you this one time after this that's it.

[ssjup81]

Nope. I don't view Leo as a Gary Stu. His character works very hard at his ninjutsu and takes it the most seriously compared to the others and has been doing even more since his leg injury. He's also self-sacrificing...then again that could apply to all four of them.

A Gary Stu/Mary Stu tends to be perfect in nearly every way without even trying or breaking a sweat. Leo isn't like this imo, and still comes across as humble and modest.

To me a Mary Sue character is Hey Arnold's Lila. SHE is what I view as a Mary Sue, as she was purposely written that way. She was liked by everyone, she had the perfect hair, looks, she could do no wrong, and everything she did was "ever so" perfect. She had no flaws. Leo is flawed, and that's why I like this version of Leo so much. This is usually my template for a Mary Sue character when comparing. Leo isn't a "Lila" to me.

[Powder]

Leonardo is the leader & overall best fighter. So, no, maintaining that role does not make him a "Marty Stu".

[Werecat]

...I'm not familiar with other incarnations outside the nick show, but isn't Leo almost always the main character? Sure all turtles are main characters, but I mean among them he's the most important, isn't he?...

No Leo is not the most important. Raphael in previous TMNT variations tends to be the central character. TMNT is ultimately about the four turtle bros, the creators even said this themselves.

What really defines a Sue is their sheer importance to the plot. The whole universe seems to revolve around this character...

There's no denying that he has been getting the lions share of good and awesome moments in the recent episodes, like snapping Raph out of the mind control and thus becoming the actual hero of the episode, which was supposed to be about Raph... The writers did it again in The Deadly Venom, where Leo was praised to the skies a little bit too much, if you ask me. I mean, personal training with Splinter, learning this healing stuff in like no time at all and of course becoming an instant expert and especially the ending: Everybody praising him, with Raph saying that he and others couldn't do anything on their own and were practically useless and Splinter complimenting him for mastering a skill only few martial artists could use...

...Just because of one measly wirtten episode that treated a character badly I won't judge him differently. If they continue this development and treat Leo like that, then yes, I may call him a Stu someday...
I think you need to read the title of the thread which is "Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?". The answer is yes, Leo is turning into a Marty Stu and it needs to stop before he is officially a Marty Stu.

You also gave explicit checkpoints for a Marty Stu which to me is almost impossible to check since you created so many outs for a character to not be classified as one. A Marty Stue is simply a character that has too much importance to a plot, is portrayed as superior, is praised by others, and receives special treatment through special training and convenient plots from writers. The explicit parts needs to be omitted because it is character specific, often used to describe a certain character than to classify a mary sue.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Or, you, know, maybe I'm just able to look at the episodes more objectively, and treat them in context of the whole as WELL as individually. Because I look deeper into them than just what's on the surface, and try to see WHY the writers did things that way. I've seen so many complaints about the TMNT not getting character development, but the MINUTE one does, everyone starts jumping on it and calling him a Stu just because he's the leader?! WTF??!! :teek: News flash! Leo's the leader for a REASON!! (And incidentally, yes, it's because he's the "main" character out of the four. Leaders generally ARE, in hero-teams..... vis-à-vis, Captain America, Superman, Cyclops, Mr. Fantastic, etc....)

Also, MOST people WOULD feel insulted and offended by that kind of talk, and it also makes you look rather judgmental as well. Just sayin. Instead of resorting to using unfounded assumptions on other people's characters to "prove" your point or make your argument, try actually READING their posts as written, instead of taking things out of context or putting words into them that aren't there. You're not winning any friends by doing that, and it doesn't make YOU look any more credible, either.

If you want to call him a Stu, fine. that's your OPINION, and your prerogative. But DON'T go trying to invalidate someone else's opinion just because they disagree. Read Mukuono's definition of a Stu, which is, in fact, EXACTLY what a Stu is. Leo only meets PART of that definition, so by that definition, he NOT a Stu. Leaving your point a bit- overblown, TBH.

And maybe you just skimmed those earlier posts, but I DID say that some of what happened in those episodes was a little overdone. But not Stu-ish. Just a bit, how shall I say- exaggerated. They were clearly setting him on a pedestal for that episode, but that in no way means he's now a Stu. April gets that treatment in EVERY episode she's in! Leo's only had it happen a couple of times, and this late in the series, it's kind of expected- he's improved immensely as a fighter and a leader, and they've been building that up for THREE SEASONS. Plenty of time, IMHO.

As for the caps thing, it's for EMPHESIS. Or in other words, it's how I choose to draw attention to or put greater force behind certain thoughts, and how I put focus on words and ideas that are important within the post. Deal with it.

[Werecat]

Also, MOST people WOULD feel insulted and offended by that kind of talk, and it also makes you look rather judgmental as well.
It was a bit judgemental, I agree. Usually I edit out such things to avoid the whole appearing as confrontational thingy.

No one was trying to convince of you of any thing or at least I wasn't, I was just giving a valid opinion of mine. I wasn't angry or annoyed with you at all till you insulted me, that's when things hit the fan for me. You need to treat other members on here with respect, your being really rude to people who don't agree with and frankly I'm done with it. Start treating people around here with more respect please, I'm asking you this one time after this that's it.
I is SORRY! I am not being rude. I just want a conversation on why you guys think he is not a Marty Stu without ignoring that he is a Marty Stu in the Deadly venom. Ignoring it doesn't make it untrue.

If you want to call him a Stu, fine. that's your OPINION, and your prerogative. But DON'T go trying to invalidate someone else's opinion just because they disagree. Read Mukuono's definition of a Stu, which is, in fact, EXACTLY what a Stu is. Leo only meets PART of that definition, so by that definition, he NOT a Stu. Leaving your point a bit- overblown, TBH.

And maybe you just skimmed those earlier posts, but I DID say that some of what happened in those episodes was a little overdone. But not Stu-ish. Just a bit, how shall I say- exaggerated. They were clearly setting him on a pedestal for that episode, but that in no way means he's now a Stu. April gets that treatment in EVERY episode she's in! Leo's only had it happen a couple of times, and this late in the series, it's kind of expected- he's improved immensely as a fighter and a leader, and they've been building that up for THREE SEASONS. Plenty of time, IMHO.

As for the caps thing, it's for EMPHESIS. Or in other words, it's how I choose to draw attention to or put greater force behind certain thoughts, and how I put focus on words and ideas that are important within the post. Deal with it.
I just read that post and gave my response. The thing is this whole thread is about ''Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?''. Leo is turning into a Marty Stu because of the ''Deadly venom'' episode is pushing it towards that direction. Leo is given too much importance to a plot's solution; he has special training that the rest are excluded from and we are not given reasons why. He is portrayed as a superior character in all aspects, which is fighting, mastery, ninja skeels. He instantly masters a magic trick with one training lesson. He is praised and commented on about how no one can do what he does and he is special. That is a Marty Stu, gosh darn it. How can you be so blind! It astounds me how silly you guys can be sometimes.

[pennydreadful]

PK, would you please actually educate yourself on what a Marty Stu is? Here; I'll make it easy so you don't have to Google at all:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu

Leo being a Marty Stu would mean that he is the All Things character with no flaws. He'd be as science-savvy as Donnie, all the female characters would crush on him, he'd kick more ass than Raph, have all the pithy one-liners, and would basically have/be the coolest and bestest of everything.

Leo's a member of the team. Every member in the team has different strengths and weaknesses. For frack's sake, stop being so overly hysterical about everything. I'm dreading the point when Renet shows up and it spurs you onto another set of ridiculous 'body image' threads. Given that she's already been described in her character bio as being immature and sometimes making rash decisions, you'll probably decide it's another orchestrated move on the part of the showmakers to fat-shame. :trolleye:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Dude, it was ONE episode. And after I JUST rewatched it, I really don't even see where you're getting that. Looked for signs of Stu-ism, and found- nothing. First off, it was his FOCUS that allowed him to master the healing in the first place, which had already been hinted at with Casey and April watching the movie, with Casey's comment on what his favorite part was. Leo basically did exactly like the hero in the movie they'd seen. He didn't give up or give in, and used his own inner strength to not only beat the venom, but to master the healing hands, too.


And at that, he really didn't even get all the praise everyone seems to think he did. Splinter commented on his ability and dedication, his focus, etc, and yes, HE praised Leo for that, but the others mostly just thanked him for saving them, and Raph said they couldn't have done that. That was all. Sorry, no real Stu-ism there. Just some realistic gratitude and Splinter calling it a "win". Leo even pointed out he'd failed to "save" Karai this time out. And was bummed about it. No gushing, no "oh Leo, you're our savior!", and no "he's so perfect!" Just some pats on the back, thanks for savin' us, and let's call it a day". That's it.

If anything, Leo proved just how far he's come in this episode. He was focused, concentrated on the task, and he wasn't about to let his brothers down- and it showed.

Is he turning into a Marty Stu? No. If anything, he overcame an obstacle that shows how far he has come as a ninja, but otherwise, he didn't do anything Stu-ish at all. Didn't even have everyone fawning over him, or act "perfect", or anything else one would expect of a Stu. Granted, he learned that art WAY too fast, but it's a cartoon, so.... I'll give it a pass for time-constraints. Especially since it took him SEVEN episodes to get over an injured knee that he had supposedly healed THREE times. He DOES have a flaw- he doesn't have enough faith in his own abilities. So there's no reason to start calling him a Stu at this point, when half the time, he can't even get over his own hang-ups!

[BabyTurtles]

Leonardo is the leader & overall best fighter. So, no, maintaining that role does not make him a "Marty Stu".

I kinda hate it when they make the Leader the best at lots of things...I mean he's already leading the team you don't need to make him/her better than everyone.

I feel like Leo should just be a balance...and not the best.

Raph is the best fighter
Mikey has the most talent
Donnie is smartest

but Leo has all of these things but not to the extreme like his brothers....he's just a perfect balance and that should be what makes him good.

but ya know...that's me...

I also feel that Splinter shouldn't play favorites, but whateves...

[Werecat]

PK, would you please actually educate yourself on what a Marty Stu is? Here; I'll make it easy so you don't have to Google at all:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu

Leo being a Marty Stu would mean that he is the All Things character with no flaws. He'd be as science-savvy as Donnie, all the female characters would crush on him, he'd kick more ass than Raph, have all the pithy one-liners, and would basically have/be the coolest and bestest of everything.

Leo's a member of the team. Every member in the team has different strengths and weaknesses. For frack's sake, stop being so overly hysterical about everything. I'm dreading the point when Renet shows up and it spurs you onto another set of ridiculous 'body image' threads. Given that she's already been described in her character bio as being immature and sometimes making rash decisions, you'll probably decide it's another orchestrated move on the part of the showmakers to fat-shame. :trolleye:
Your logic is laughable, honest it did make me laugh. Its like saying someone didn't do a somersault because he didn't do the ritual beforehand, didn't do it while wearing a pirate suit, didn't do a funny dance at the end. All this fluff, the explicit parts are more character specific than terms you can use to classify a Marty Stu. Also use direct quotes from the cited source instead of just linking it expecting it to explain everything for you.

''In fan fiction, a Mary Sue or, in case of a male character, Gary Stu or Marty Stu is an idealized character, often but not necessarily an author insert and/or wish-fulfillment.'' -Google. Wikipedia. Short, simple and straight to the point.

Now let me share the definition for idealized
''regard or represent as perfect or better than in reality.''-Google. Again, short, simple and straight to the point.

The problem with your definition is that it is too specific. Which can lead to ambiguity because you are used to such a specific definition that you can not put the two and two together. Realize that one does not need to check all the marks to be classified as something instead it only needs most of it.

Dude, it was ONE episode. And after I JUST rewatched it, I really don't even see where you're getting that. Looked for signs of Stu-ism, and found- nothing.
Oh boy. I am being honest, we are all mature enough, are you capable of critical thinking? Like can you answer abstract questions? or get abstract ideas without getting confused? To be honest, I find trouble understanding abstract too and it gets hard but this topic is simple. It seems like you won't get that Leo is a Marty Stu unless the writers openly express that he is in every sentence.

Its okay if you cant understand abstract stuff, we must learn from each other. Just don't take criticism as an attack instead use it to better yourself. I just recently read how M Night Shamblahblah still thinks he is the best movie director ever and speaks as if everyone liked his movie the Airbender.

''Even to this day, he seems hell bent on refusing to acknowledge his shortcomings as the movie’s director''
And this is why he's so bad at what he does. If you won't listen to criticism, if you won't admit when you **** something up, then you will never honestly examine what you're creating, you will never improve, and you will keep making terrible garbage for people to mock until the day you die.''-ajdovbbbb, top comment.

Shortcomings, man, everyone has them. Acknowledge them and improve. I am sorry but I am not going to encourage ignorance.

[pennydreadful]

Yeah, why use definitions to actually create parameters on how to evaluate and identify something? The shame I'm feeling right now is unbearable. Truly, you have shown me the error of my ways. :trolleye:

2k3 Leo wasn't a Marty Stu either, but hey, hate-wanking into your pillow over the guy seems to make you happy so knock yourself out and remember: use lotion so you don't get chafe-marks. It's not like nearly everyone in the thread is disagreeing with you and your aggressive flailing around is reeking of desperate overcompensation to try to prove your rightness or anything. :lol:

[Werecat]

Yeah, why use definitions to actually create parameters on how to evaluate and identify something? The shame I'm feeling right now is unbearable. Truly, you have shown me the error of my ways. :trolleye:

2k3 Leo wasn't a Marty Stu either, but hey, hate-wanking into your pillow over the guy seems to make you happy so knock yourself out and remember: use lotion so you don't get chafe-marks. It's not like nearly everyone in the thread is disagreeing with you and your aggressive flailing around is reeking of desperate overcompensation to try to prove your rightness or anything. :lol:
You seem like a grumpy person. Nice bait there, seems yummy but no I don't bite bait as easily as you think. I am above your petty squabbles /fancy pinky.

[Leo656]

Ohhhh myyyy gaaaaaawwwwd, this thread. :lol:

I'll keep it brief since you guys make my head hurt.

1. If someone is "the leader", then by default, they're probably going to be exceptional in more than one or two ways. They kind of go hand in hand.

2. All these stupid fanfic terms like "Mary Sue/Marty Stu/Whatever" need to be put in a box and lit on fire. All they do is tell people who write, "Oh no! Don't write what's in your head! There's probably a snarky internet term for it!" Literally every character anyone creates is a "Sue"; every single scenario anyone writes is a "trope". Really irritating. And it's not like most of the people who sling those terms could do much better, and if they are, they're usually not getting paid for it, so, y'know, there's only so far they can push their argument.

EDIT: Oh my, this kid makes a lot of random assumptions about people that don't come close to how they actually are. The hell, man.

[Werecat]

Ohhhh myyyy gaaaaaawwwwd, this thread. :lol:

I'll keep it brief since you guys make my head hurt.

1. If someone is "the leader", then by default, they're probably going to be exceptional in more than one or two ways. They kind of go hand in hand.

2. All these stupid fanfic terms like "Mary Sue/Marty Stu/Whatever" need to be put in a box and lit on fire. All they do is tell people who write, "Oh no! Don't write what's in your head! There's probably a snarky internet term for it!" Literally every character anyone creates is a "Sue"; every single scenario anyone writes is a "trope". Really irritating. And it's not like most of the people who sling those terms could do much better, and if they are, they're usually not getting paid for it, so, y'know, there's only so far they can push their argument.

EDIT: Oh my, this kid makes a lot of random assumptions about people that don't come close to how they actually are. The hell, man.
Ha, no! You guys are so funny I laugh a lot when I come here.

In Nick TMNT Leo was not picked as Leader because he was the best at everything. Leo was picked as the leader because he asked. The self initiation and spirit is what Splinter admires most about Leo. Earlier in the seasons Leo was shown that his brothers are just as capable as he is as a warrior.

Now it seems the writers are regressing on their own progress by constructing episodes that push Leo towards the Marty Stu direction. You can write an important character without the character coming off as a Mary Sue/Marty Stu; All you have to do is give reasons and answer the ''whys'' of Why aren't the others capable. The Mary Sue/Marty stu is basically an overly defined character in an undefined world. Just because the world is make believe doesn't mean you have to throw credibility out the window. Give reasons why and answer questions throughout the story to flesh out why the writer thinks the character is best suited for the solution.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The trouble with THOSE definitions is that they're TOO short. And ambiguous. Seriously, by that definition, pretty much all fictional characters could be labeled as Stu/Sues.

Here's a more comprehensive one (taken from TV Tropes):

"Mary Sue is an unrealistically capable and virtuous character, one who simply lacks flaws and is depicted in an overly positive light. In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature."



"As far as their traits go, Marty Stu incorporates most of the Common Mary Sue Traits while having quite a few general trends to differentiate him. While the textbook Mary Sue is generally made as a pseudo-realistic ideal of feminine perfection, Marty Stu tends towards taking the Rule of Cool TO THE EXTREME!! Due in part to the Double Standard, Marty tends to be less of an emotional cornerstone and more just an embodiment of pure physical and mental awesome (ala God-Mode Sue). He's the type that tends to be stronger than The Incredible Hulk, faster than Sonic the Hedgehog, and have more MP than God himself.

Marty also generally doesn't have the sort of purity common in Mary (although it's not unheard of). Instead, he tends more towards the Darker and Edgier path, with a tragic and very personal backstory being the order of the day. Whereas Mary would use this to emphasize just how special she truly is, Marty uses it for the sake of brooding. No doubt much of the recent popularity of this character trait owes credit to Batman and Wolverine (who can provide examples of Marty Stu themselves, Depending on the Writer), but there's no indication that it only started with those characters.
Obviously, neither of these traits are exclusive to Marty. There exist plenty of God Mode and Sympathetic Sues, but in sheer percentage, it's more common on Marty. Since All Girls Want Bad Boys, after all, increasing the Bad Ass potential of a character has the secondary effect of making him more attractive to women without having to sacrifice any capability. Sometimes, this attitude goes just a little too far and creates Jerk Sue."


Leo really doesn't meet the criteria for this, as he's NOT perfect, and although he's the "best" fighter, he works hard to get that way, showing that it's not effortless for him as it would be for a Stu, he isn't good at EVERYTHING, and he isn't loved by all the females- April just treats him as a friend, and Karai is- well, she's currently brainwashed. In other words, all he's done is learn a new skill, and suddenly he's turning into a Stu? Sorry, doesn't wash.

[Powder]

Why do you guys bother? Honestly, I don't get it. There are people who don't budge from their stance, period, no use making yourself red in the face trying to change that.

[Luckyday]

Oh boy this thread, man. I'm probably going to regret replying because honestly I am somewhat in the middle but my bottom line is...

Leo is not a mary sue, however it's not a good idea treat him as the main character because it makes the others look like minor characters who don't need the attention or focus and are only there to support the develop of the "main character" with the chosen one syndrome stamp across his forehead. That is a major cardinal sin in my book and the worst way to represent Leonardo. http://i.imgur.com/abtor4B.gif

However it only feels that way with just one recent episode. Splinter never really explained why he taught it to him alone. His explantation of him having near death experience was more pointing at him dying from the venom from the hands of Karai and not because of the season 2 finale.

That being said with one episode, the show itself does great a job in pointing out how his strengths can also be his major weaknesses like in the episode "Follow the Leader" shows how each turtle was able to get past Leo using their strengths. While it's good being discipline as a fighter but having the un willingness to think outside the box can make you weak in certain situations and making you unable to be the best fighter by default.

Leonardo is best as a part of a set and not the main package. Everybody serve a purpose that will bring success towards their missions. Mikey is the wild card that can turn the tide. Donnie is the hacker/ science expert. Raph is the physical support on the team. Leo serve as the leader that gives direction of said team. So when one person is missing it throws the balance of the team out of whack.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Why did Splinter only teach it to him? Simple. Because he was the ONLY ONE IN THE ROOM! The others were all watching their sparring session from outside, while Leo was practicing with Splinter using the bokken. Then Splinter used the healing hands on his knee, and Leo asked him what he was doing. So he showed it to him. Had the others come in at that time, he might have taught it to them, too. But they didn't. Leo was simply the only one present at the time. Not hard to figure out. Honestly, when I first heard all the grumbling over it, I assumed he singled Leo out specifically for that lesson, but he didn't. It's just that Leo was already there for private practice to begin with, and expressed interest in the technique. So Splinter showed him. None of the others did that.

[Werecat]

The trouble with THOSE definitions is that they're TOO short. And ambiguous. Seriously, by that definition, pretty much all fictional characters could be labeled as Stu/Sues.

Here's a more comprehensive one (taken from TV Tropes):

"Mary Sue is an unrealistically capable and virtuous character, one who simply lacks flaws and is depicted in an overly positive light. In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature."
There is no difference between Marty Stu and Mary Sue. The different names do not imply differences in characteristics instead it is to inform of the gender of the character. Marty Stu and Mary Sue are the same because they are idealized characters, the other stuff is just fluff and is subjective.

The problem is you are using various, subjective opinions to define a Marty Stu. How can a character ever classify as one if you need such hard concrete evidence to get the notion that he is a Marty Stu. The short, precise explanation is without opinions and is more of a mutual understanding.

Almost every character can be characterized as a Marty Stu/Mary Sue, this is true. The thing is most writers prevent that label on their characters by giving reasons and answers to the reader's questions. A Marty Stu/Mary Sue is basically a character without the reasons and answers.

We are not given reasons or answers to why Leo is the only one capable of saving the day on "The Deadly Venom''. We are just shown that Leo is the ninja who can instantly master private techniques and receives recognition and praise from the most unlikely characters.

I am basically criticizing the show for its lack of answers. The lack of answers results in Leo turning towards the Marty Stu direction.

Oh boy this thread, man. I'm probably going to regret replying because honestly I am somewhat in the middle but my bottom line is...

Leo is not a mary sue, however it's not a good idea treat him as the main character because it makes the others look like minor characters who don't need the attention or focus and are only there to support the develop of the "main character" with the chosen one syndrome stamp across his forehead. That is a major cardinal sin in my book and the worst way to represent Leonardo. http://i.imgur.com/abtor4B.gif

However it only feels that way with just one recent episode. Splinter never really explained why he taught it to him alone. His explantation of him having near death experience was more pointing at him dying from the venom from the hands of Karai and not because of the season 2 finale.

That being said with one episode, the show itself does great a job in pointing out how his strengths can also be his major weaknesses like in the episode "Follow the Leader" in showing how each turtle was able to get past Leo using their strengths. While it's good in having discipline as fighter but having the un willingness to think outside the box can make you a weaker fighter in certain situations and can't be the best fighter by default.

Leonardo is best as a part of a set and not the main package. Everybody serve a purpose that will bring success towards their missions. Mikey is the wild card that can turn the tide. Donnie is the hacker/ science expert. Raph is the physical support on the team. Leo serve as the leader that gives direction of said team. So when one person is missing it throws the balance of the team out of whack.
You have some good points. Again, the thread is about if Leo is turning into a Marty Stu and not about if he is one. Currently, from the previous episode, Leo is turning into Marty Stu. I believe in ''The Deadly venom'' episode Leo is a Marty Stu.

Now people want to refuse the obvious truth and it really surprises me how ignorant people can be.

Why did Splinter only teach it to him? Simple. Because he was the ONLY ONE IN THE ROOM! The others were all watching their sparring session from outside, while Leo was practicing with Splinter using the bokken. Then Splinter used the healing hands on his knee, and Leo asked him what he was doing. So he showed it to him. Had the others come in at that time, he might have taught it to them, too. But they didn't. Leo was simply the only one present at the time. Not hard to figure out. Honestly, when I first heard all the grumbling over it, I assumed he singled Leo out specifically for that lesson, but he didn't. It's just that Leo was already there for private practice to begin with, and expressed interest in the technique. So Splinter showed him. None of the others did that.
Your best defense is speculation, that there ruins your credibility. and you didn't even answer my previous question; can you understand abstract stuff?

[Luckyday]

With talking about marty sues, there are times when I wonder if Mikey is slowly becoming one? High unlikely, I know but there are few things, just two moments really, from the top of my head like he somehow made super retro mutagen and the other time, with getting in trouble but ended up with the other character apologizing to him.

Again with Leonardo, he's not becoming a marty sue. That second last episode, he didn't figure out on how to break the mind control through a feeling like how a real mary sue would've came upon their answer. He had to figure out through observation and thinking. Mary sues never have to think. They just know automatically through lazy writing.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

There is no difference between Marty Stu and Mary Sue. The different names do not imply differences in characteristics instead it is to inform of the gender of the character. Marty Stu and Mary Sue are the same because they are idealized characters, the other stuff is just fluff and is subjective.

The problem is you are using various, subjective opinions to define a Marty Stu. How can a character ever classify as one if you need such hard concrete evidence to get the notion that he is a Marty Stu. The short, precise explanation is without opinions and is more of a mutual understanding.

Almost every character can be characterized as a Marty Stu/Mary Sue, this is true. The thing is most writers prevent that label on their characters by giving reasons and answers to the reader's questions. A Marty Stu/Mary Sue is basically a character without the reasons and answers.

We are not given reasons or answers to why Leo is the only one capable of saving the day on "The Deadly Venom''. We are just shown that Leo is the ninja who can instantly master private techniques and receives recognition and praise from the most unlikely characters.

I am basically criticizing the show for its lack of answers. The lack of answers results in Leo turning towards the Marty Stu direction.

You have some good points. Again, the thread is about if Leo is turning into a Marty Stu and not about if he is one. Currently, from the previous episode, Leo is turning into Marty Stu. I believe in ''The Deadly venom'' episode Leo is a Marty Stu.

Now people want to refuse the obvious truth and it really surprises me how ignorant people can be.


Your best defense is speculation, that there ruins your credibility. and you didn't even answer my previous question; can you understand abstract stuff?


Wow. Thank you for stating the obvious there. No kidding. Of course they are "the same" except for gender- although the point of that insert was to show HOW they are different. Ideals of masculine perfection are different from those of feminine perfection, BECAUSE of their gender. And yes, there ARE differences. A female Sue is going to be "pure", sweet, and loved by everyone, while a guy will be "rugged, strong, and broody". BOTH will be capable of doing ANYTHING they try, usually with little effort. And while Leo DID learn the new skill rather quickly, that's about the ONLY "Stu-ish" thing about him here. And yes, the show DID give reasons- just not in dialog. Don't TELL, SHOW!! They actually gave us all the reasons VISUALLY, instead of just throwing a line or two to "explain" everything. The only thing they "explained" in dialog was how/why he was able to master it after being poisoned- but everything else was in the animation. Perfectly understandable, and realistic.

He wasn't praised by "everybody"- just a quick "thank you and good job, bro!" from the group, without much hoopla. Seriously. that was IT. Nobody was gushing over how he saved them. Even Splinter played it down as just him becoming a better warrior. And called it a win, but that's about it. Whoopdie-friggin-do. Again- he is NOT turning into a Stu, even in this ONE EPSIODE!! If he was he'd suddenly know how to hack as well as Donnie, be as tough and strong as Raph, and funny and athletic as Mikey. He'd gain psychic powers like April, or be able to beat Shredder with one hand behind his back. As it is, he only beat Splinter because he was injured! So WHERE is the "Stu"??!! Not seein' one here, nope, nope..... :trolleye: :tgrumble:

[Werecat]

Wow. Thank you for stating the obvious there. No kidding. Of course they are "the same" except for gender- although the point of that insert was to show HOW they are different. Ideals of masculine perfection are different from those of feminine perfection, BECAUSE of their gender. And yes, there ARE differences. A female Sue is going to be "pure", sweet, and loved by everyone, while a guy will be "rugged, strong, and broody". BOTH will be capable of doing ANYTHING they try, usually with little effort. And while Leo DID learn the new skill rather quickly, that's about the ONLY "Stu-ish" thing about him here. And yes, the show DID give reasons- just not in dialog. Don't TELL, SHOW!! They actually gave us all the reasons VISUALLY, instead of just throwing a line or two to "explain" everything. The only thing they "explained" in dialog was how/why he was able to master it after being poisoned- but everything else was in the animation. Perfectly understandable, and realistic.

He wasn't praised by "everybody"- just a quick "thank you and good job, bro!" from the group, without much hoopla. Seriously. that was IT. Nobody was gushing over how he saved them. Even Splinter played it down as just him becoming a better warrior. And called it a win, but that's about it. Whoopdie-friggin-do. Again- he is NOT turning into a Stu, even in this ONE EPSIODE!! If he was he'd suddenly know how to hack as well as Donnie, be as tough and strong as Raph, and funny and athletic as Mikey. He'd gain psychic powers like April, or be able to beat Shredder with one hand behind his back. As it is, he only beat Splinter because he was injured! So WHERE is the "Stu"??!! Not seein' one here, nope, nope..... :trolleye: :tgrumble:
ARE YOU CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING ABSTRACT STUFF, THINGYS!? Maybe if I type in all caps you will answer. From my guesstimate, you are not capable of understanding abstract stuff, thingys, whatever. You seem like the type of person who is more practical and needs extensive concrete evidence to ever get the notion of anything.

With talking about marty sues, there are times when I wonder if Mikey is slowly becoming one? High unlikely, I know but there are few things, just two moments really, from the top of my head like he somehow made super retro mutagen and the other time, with getting in trouble but ended up with the other character apologizing to him.

Again with Leonardo, he's not becoming a marty sue. That second last episode, he didn't figure out on how to break the mind control through a feeling like how a real mary sue would've came upon their answer. He had to figure out through observation and thinking. Mary sues never have to think. They just know automatically through lazy writing.
I don't think it is fair to compare a Marty Stu in a well written storyline to a Marty Stu in a terribly written storyline. I am not saying any of the TMNT episodes are poorly written 'cause I think they are good enough with just a few imperfections. I think you are using a Marty Stu from a terribly written story and comparing it to every other story when that case is unique in its own right. People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective.

I like the Nick TMNT which is why I am passionate to want the other turtles to get important roles besides the ol' "Leo is the best".

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Your best defense is speculation, that there ruins your credibility. and you didn't even answer my previous question; can you understand abstract stuff?


Speculation? I was RIGHT THERE in the episode! Leo was in the room, and ASKED about the technique. The others, who WATCHED from the doorway, didn't come in to ask, and didn't even seem interested. That's not speculation, it's observation and common sense aka logic. What's so danged abstract about that?! You're splitting hairs and grasping at straw men.

Oh, and you mean THIS question? V

"Oh boy. I am being honest, we are all mature enough, are you capable of critical thinking? Like can you answer abstract questions? or get abstract ideas without getting confused? To be honest, I find trouble understanding abstract too and it gets hard but this topic is simple. It seems like you won't get that Leo is a Marty Stu unless the writers openly express that he is in every sentence.

''Even to this day, he seems hell bent on refusing to acknowledge his shortcomings as the movie’s director''
And this is why he's so bad at what he does. If you won't listen to criticism, if you won't admit when you **** something up, then you will never honestly examine what you're creating, you will never improve, and you will keep making terrible garbage for people to mock until the day you die.''-ajdovbbbb, top comment.

Shortcomings, man, everyone has them. Acknowledge them and improve. I am sorry but I am not going to encourage ignorance.'


Honestly, I didn't think it was WORTH answering, because it's insulting, and rude. And arrogant in the extreme. Stop trolling for a flame-war. But okay, I'll answer- in a word- YES. I don't need writers to spoon-feed me something to see it, but I also don't try to go fishing for something that's just not there, either. I read into visual clues very well, thank you, and in fact, the clues were all there that the OPPOSITE of your claim is the case. There were plenty of hints as to how/why everything happened, for anyone who cared to look deeper than what's on the surface or in the dialog. So how's THAT for abstract for ya'?

Incidentally, my husband often accuses me of analyzing things to death, and then pointing out all the plot holes and tropes. Guess what? Really didn't see many here, unlike a lot of others. And I was LOOKING for them, after having read all the comments on the episode before I even watched it. Good episode, actually, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and found little to complain about. There were FAR more in the Mutanimals one! The only one that I really found here was Baxter's line at the beginning when he brainwashed Karai.

[Werecat]

Speculation? I was RIGHT THERE in the episode! Leo was in the room, and ASKED about the technique. The others, who WATCHED from the doorway, didn't come in to ask, and didn't even seem interested. That's not speculation, it's observation and common sense aka logic. What's so danged abstract about that?! You're splitting hairs and grasping at straw men.

Oh, and you mean THIS question? V

"Oh boy. I am being honest, we are all mature enough, are you capable of critical thinking? Like can you answer abstract questions? or get abstract ideas without getting confused? To be honest, I find trouble understanding abstract too and it gets hard but this topic is simple. It seems like you won't get that Leo is a Marty Stu unless the writers openly express that he is in every sentence.

''Even to this day, he seems hell bent on refusing to acknowledge his shortcomings as the movie’s director''
And this is why he's so bad at what he does. If you won't listen to criticism, if you won't admit when you **** something up, then you will never honestly examine what you're creating, you will never improve, and you will keep making terrible garbage for people to mock until the day you die.''-ajdovbbbb, top comment.

Shortcomings, man, everyone has them. Acknowledge them and improve. I am sorry but I am not going to encourage ignorance.'


Honestly, I didn't think it was WORTH answering, because it's insulting, and rude. And arrogant in the extreme. Stop trolling for a flame-war. But okay, I'll answer- in a word- YES. I don't need writers to spoon-feed me something to see it, but I also don't try to go fishing for something that's just not there, either. I read into visual clues very well, thank you, and in fact, the clues were all there that the OPPOSITE of your claim is the case. There were plenty of hints as to how/why everything happened, for anyone who cared to look deeper than what's on the surface or in the dialog. So how's THAT for abstract for ya'?

Incidentally, my husband often accuses me of analyzing things to death, and then pointing out all the plot holes and tropes. Guess what? Really didn't see many here, unlike a lot of others. And I was LOOKING for them, after having read all the comments on the episode before I even watched it. Good episode, actually, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and found little to complain about. There were FAR more in the Mutanimals one! The only one that I really found here was Baxter's line at the beginning when he brainwashed Karai.
To be honest this is what it is like talking to you.
FPq165j9DgY
It is like convincing Patrick that it is his wallet.

Raph said this
"...You did it solo. That is something none of us could do.''

Splinter said this
"...something...something...something...only a few martial artists can master.''

Raphael was taken out off-screen. Leo is the only one that puts up a struggle against Karai. Why couldn't the others do anything against Karai? It is not answered. We are just shown how awesome Leo is and is able to do what everyone else can not.

As for abstract, I was referring to classifying a Marty Stu since it seems like you need the writers to tell you that he was a Marty Stu for you to understand it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

ARE YOU CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING ABSTRACT STUFF, THINGYS!? Maybe if I type in all caps you will answer. From my guesstimate, you are not capable of understanding abstract stuff, thingys, whatever. You seem like the type of person who is more practical and needs extensive concrete evidence to ever get the notion of anything.

I don't think it is fair to compare a Marty Stu in a well written storyline to a Marty Stu in a terribly written storyline. I am not saying any of the TMNT episodes are poorly written 'cause I think they are good enough with just a few imperfections. I think you are using a Marty Stu from a terribly written story and comparing it to every other story when that case is unique in its own right. People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective.
i
I like the Nick TMNT which is why I am passionate to want the other turtles to get important roles besides the ol' "Leo is the best".


OMFG! Of all the insulting, offensive things I've seen on here, this is one of the worst. YES, YOU TWIT- I DO understand abstract stuff/"thingies", apparently better than you do. The ONLY character in the show who has exhibited signs of being a sue-type is April. We've ALL seen it extensively in the series. In contrast, Leo has simply been- Leo. He's grown as a character, and this was one of the episodes that showed it. He has matured and improved, become better as a leader, and- well, I'd love it if they ALL had this much time and effort put into their development. Because that's what this episode was. Character development for Leo.

"People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective."

Okay, Now I know you have no clue how to tell a S(t)ue. The entire POINT of a Stu is that they are a "too perfect" character in ANY story- doesn't matter where. It's only as subjective as a person wants it to be. The definition originally pertained to Star Trek fan-fics, but has been expanded to include ANY such character, in ANY franchise or story. But the criteria are pretty standard, so I don't need to compare Stus from different stories, I just need to look at the basic traits of one, and see if Leo meets them. He doesn't. Whether or not a storyline is GOOD is also subjective, but I wasn't comparing stories anyway, just pointing out other instances that "might" point to a Stu-like character. And most of those instances, oddly enough, involve April, NOT Leo.

BTW, there IS no "biblical" definition, though I'm sure there are plenty of them IN the Bible. Since you seem to have such an aversion to READING stories to point out Stus, I'll save you the trouble. I can already think of at least ONE.....:trolleye: :trazz:

[Leofan26]

Wow. Thank you for stating the obvious there. No kidding. Of course they are "the same" except for gender- although the point of that insert was to show HOW they are different. Ideals of masculine perfection are different from those of feminine perfection, BECAUSE of their gender. And yes, there ARE differences. A female Sue is going to be "pure", sweet, and loved by everyone, while a guy will be "rugged, strong, and broody". BOTH will be capable of doing ANYTHING they try, usually with little effort. And while Leo DID learn the new skill rather quickly, that's about the ONLY "Stu-ish" thing about him here. And yes, the show DID give reasons- just not in dialog. Don't TELL, SHOW!! They actually gave us all the reasons VISUALLY, instead of just throwing a line or two to "explain" everything. The only thing they "explained" in dialog was how/why he was able to master it after being poisoned- but everything else was in the animation. Perfectly understandable, and realistic.

He wasn't praised by "everybody"- just a quick "thank you and good job, bro!" from the group, without much hoopla. Seriously. that was IT. Nobody was gushing over how he saved them. Even Splinter played it down as just him becoming a better warrior. And called it a win, but that's about it. Whoopdie-friggin-do. Again- he is NOT turning into a Stu, even in this ONE EPSIODE!! If he was he'd suddenly know how to hack as well as Donnie, be as tough and strong as Raph, and funny and athletic as Mikey. He'd gain psychic powers like April, or be able to beat Shredder with one hand behind his back. As it is, he only beat Splinter because he was injured! So WHERE is the "Stu"??!! Not seein' one here, nope, nope..... :trolleye: :tgrumble:
Ignore him man, he's not going to budge from what he believes no matter what. Thinks what says is the truth nothing else matters, he's like a brick wall.

He feels Leo a Gary Su or Marty Su, no ones going to change his mind on that. Why the topic is beyond me than. If we all just walk away from the insulting hypacrit and act like this thread isn't here it will stop.

[Werecat]

OMFG! Of all the insulting, offensive things I've seen on here, this is one of the worst. YES, YOU TWIT- I DO understand abstract stuff/"thingies", apparently better than you do. The ONLY character in the show who has exhibited signs of being a sue-type is April. We've ALL seen it extensively in the series. In contrast, Leo has simply been- Leo. He's grown as a character, and this was one of the episodes that showed it. He has matured and improved, become better as a leader, and- well, I'd love it if they ALL had this much time and effort put into their development. Because that's what this episode was. Character development for Leo.

"People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective."

Okay, Now I know you have no clue how to tell a S(t)ue. The entire POINT of a Stu is that they are a "too perfect" character in ANY story- doesn't matter where. It's only as subjective as a person wants it to be. The definition originally pertained to Star Trek fan-fics, but has been expanded to include ANY such character, in ANY franchise or story. But the criteria are pretty standard, so I don't need to compare Stus from different stories, I just need to look at the basic traits of one, and see if Leo meets them. He doesn't. Whether or not a storyline is GOOD is also subjective, but I wasn't comparing stories anyway, just pointing out other instances that "might" point to a Stu-like character. And most of those instances, oddly enough, involve April, NOT Leo.

BTW, there IS no "biblical" definition, though I'm sure there are plenty of them IN the Bible. Since you seem to have such an aversion to READING stories to point out Stus, I'll save you the trouble. I can already think of at least ONE.....:trolleye: :trazz:
Biblical, BIBLICAL, BIBLICAL! It is a urban term for someone who takes a certain thingy as truth and reveres it like a religious person does the bible. The formal term is just "On a great scale".

Yes, you can argue that what I say is subjective but at the same time I can say the samething about you! It is like the psychology story of how a person can argue that the world is round but so can the other person argue that the world is flat, neither can fully convince the other.

The thing is everyone has different upbringings, different experiences with different outlooks. Which is why most formal definitions are mutual understanding/agreement. Which is why I said the short precise definition of the Marty Stu is a mutual understanding because it isn't determined by subjective opinions.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

To be honest this is what it is like talking to you.
FPq165j9DgY
It is like convincing Patrick that it is his wallet.

Raph said this
"...You did it solo. That is something none of us could do.''

Splinter said this
"...something...something...something...only a few martial artists can master.''

Raphael was taken out off-screen. Leo is the only one that puts up a struggle against Karai. Why couldn't the others do anything against Karai? It is not answered. We are just shown how awesome Leo is and is able to do what everyone else can not.

As for abstract, I was referring to classifying a Marty Stu since it seems like you need the writers to tell you that he was a Marty Stu for you to understand it.

Why couldn't they? Oh, I don't know, maybe because Karai wasn't even "there"? They never "saw" her- just got bitten by her snakes. Not much they could do about that, as they didn't even SEE them. I don't see your point, as it's kind of moot. Not to mention ridiculous. Anyone with eyes could tell why they couldn't do what he did- they didn't learn the healing, and they never knew Karai had even attacked until they were bitten! Duh. And the entire "Leo is awesome" thing was already lampshaded/foreshadowed EARLIER in the episode, when Casey was going on about the movie to April! How HARD is that to figure out? No, really- did you just MISS the entire conversation? I caught what was going on as soon as that scene played. It was another in-world parallel to the actual episode.

Raph made ONE comment- and it was almost a throw-away, at that. So was Splinter's. TWO LINES. And from that, he's suddenly a Stu? Sorry, don't think so. It takes more than a couple of closing lines of dialog from grateful family to make a Stu. But, hey- go ahead and think that, if you want. No one's stopping you. But don't try to act as if your OPINION is cold hard FACT in the series, or insult and make assumptions about other people simply because they disagree with your "evidence". Which is pretty flimsy anyway, and wouldn't hold up even on Judge Judy.

Also, your little video is just- Well, I guess dumb clips are how SOME folks try to make arguments, but personally, I prefer to use actual facts and evidence from the show itself. And you haven't been able to refute a single one. So where's YOUR credibility? Apparently, it's in a pineapple under the sea....

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Biblical, BIBLICAL, BIBLICAL! It is a urban term for someone who takes a certain thingy as truth and reveres it like a religious person does the bible. The formal term is just "On a great scale".

Yes, you can argue that what I say is subjective but at the same time I can say the samething about you! It is like the psychology story of how a person can argue that the world is round but so can the other person argue that the world is flat, neither can fully convince the other.

The thing is everyone has different upbringings, different experiences with different outlooks. Which is why most formal definitions are mutual understanding/agreement. Which is why I said the short precise definition of the Marty Stu is a mutual understanding because it isn't determined by subjective opinions.


None of this has ANY bearing on the topic, but thanks for pointing it out, Captain Obvious....

[Werecat]

Ignore him man, he's not going to budge from what he believes no matter what. Thinks what says is the truth nothing else matters, he's like a brick wall.

He feels Leo a Gary Su or Marty Su, no ones going to change his mind on that. Why the topic is beyond me than. If we all just walk away from the insulting hypacrit and act like this thread isn't here it will stop.
Where have I insulted you? Give me one without your speculation, without your own assumption. Plain and simple. I share my honest opinion about you because you are ignorant to the truth just because you want to stick to your urban, BS, subjective definition of a Marty Stu. Which is very sloppy and poorly defined in the first place.

I was never confrontational. I said sorry and I shared my honest opinion of you. Now you want to twist it and call me a hypocrite when you can't even spell or properly comprehend my post without cherrypicking non-existant insults. You never gave a reasonable response either, like I asked, I guess it is because you have none.

None of this has ANY bearing on the topic, but thanks for pointing it out, Captain Obvious....
Are you serious? You can't piece things together. What exactly are you having trouble piecing together? I can elaborate on it. Oh yeah, none of it. Ugh, I don't think it is possible to convince a stubborn texan. Oh wait calling you stubborn is an insult and so is texan. Oh no everything is an insult. I can't have a civil conversation with you, why?

edit: Oh yeah I didn't say sorry to you. Just the ignorant Leo guy. I is sorry. Can we move past this?
2nd edit note: Gosh I just noticed I am conforming to my own stereotype of how Canadians say sorry. Gosh.

[victory_angel]

If Leo was a Gary/Marty Stu

He wouldn't need Splinter because he would be Jonin ranked Ninja at the age of five.

He wouldn't need Donnie because he would be smart enough to cure mutations such as Karai.

He wouldn't need Raph because he'd be the strongest fighter of the team.

He wouldn't need Mikey because he'd be fun loving party guy.

However Leo's main problem is he doesn't trust his own instincts as a leader. In season 1 he idolizes Captain Ryan and even declares he would be a great leader like him one day.

In season 2 he doesn't trust in what his brothers have to offer the team. Instead he feels they should do what he believes Splinter wants.

Now in season three his recovery was psychological. When he's recovering he does doubt his ability to recover. However when his family is in danger he focuses on saving them and less on his injuries. And that enables him to save their lives.

Same thing with Deadly Venom. Yes, Leo learned the healing hands rather easily, but he was able to remember it and perform it because he was in a situation where his brothers and himself were going to die. Splinter already had his hands full with April and if he came to help them the five of them would be dead. Leo was determined to have his brothers come out of that situation alive no matter what. And that's how he was able to defeat Karai's venom. It doesn't make him more special or superior then everyone else. He was the person who knew what could be done to save his family and that his families very survival depended on him being able to do it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Okay, now it's just getting annoying. Yeah, I think I'm done after this. But to defend Leofan once again (I know, I'm sort of a sucker for underdogs and those who get bullied or harassed.... :trazz: ):

What speculation? Seriously, I've used MULTIPLE examples FROM THE EPISODE to poke holes in your idea of Leo as a Stu, and the best you can give me is- calling people narcissists who want to see "their favorite character be BETTER than everyone", or saying "I" can't understand abstract ideas? I call BS. I've given plenty of evidence to the contrary, but you still use the very BROAD, VAGUE definition of a Stu (as opposed to the SPECIFIC one I and others have provided) to declare him one. It's not speculation, it's simple logic and factual proof against your claim. But call it whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that it's true.

And your opinion of ME and others here is seriously skewed, as Leo656 already pointed out. You can't make assumptions or claims about the personality or mental abilities about anyone here, because you know NOTHING about any of us. How were you confrontational? Let's see- you called someone a narcissist, twisted his comments out of context, did the same to others- including myself- and now you seem to think I'm incapable of understanding abstract ideas, when it's pretty clear from all the evidence I've given that I CAN. And now you insult someone for spelling errors, and insult my intelligence and mental facilities YET AGAIN. And "I'm" the stubborn one...? Sheesh. Reeeaal classy, there, dude.

As to why we can't have a civil conversation- maybe if you weren't so busy making assumptions and broad accusations about people, instead of bringing well-thought out points to the table, we could talk. As it is.... I can only wonder why you're so intent that Leo IS a Stu, when it's been shown by several folks repeatedly, that the evidence for it just isn't there. He has almost none of the traits, and certainly isn't anyone's "idealized" anything, much less a "perfect" character. He's growing and maturing, that's all. How can you not see that? He grew out of his Captain Ryan obsession, and is becoming his own kind of hero. A better one than he was in the first season, certainly, but not "better than" everyone else.

[Werecat]

If Leo was a Gary/Marty Stu

He wouldn't need Splinter because he would be Jonin ranked Ninja at the age of five.

He wouldn't need Donnie because he would be smart enough to cure mutations such as Karai.

He wouldn't need Raph because he'd be the strongest fighter of the team.

He wouldn't need Mikey because he'd be fun loving party guy.

However Leo's main problem is he doesn't trust his own instincts as a leader. In season 1 he idolizes Captain Ryan and even declares he would be a great leader like him one day.

In season 2 he doesn't trust in what his brothers have to offer the team. Instead he feels they should do what he believes Splinter wants.

Now in season three his recovery was psychological. When he's recovering he does doubt his ability to recover. However when his family is in danger he focuses on saving them and less on his injuries. And that enables him to save their lives.

Same thing with Deadly Venom. Yes, Leo learned the healing hands rather easily, but he was able to remember it and perform it because he was in a situation where his brothers and himself were going to die. Splinter already had his hands full with April and if he came to help them the five of them would be dead. Leo was determined to have his brothers come out of that situation alive no matter what. And that's how he was able to defeat Karai's venom. It doesn't make him more special or superior then everyone else. He was the person who knew what could be done to save his family and that his families very survival depended on him being able to do it.
Good points. Oh yes, I remember when I diagnosed Leo for having an extreme case of Marty Stu disease. Is degrees considerable? No I think not...maybe...not sure...probably.


And your opinion of ME and others here is seriously skewed, as Leo656 already pointed out. You can't make assumptions or claims about the personality or mental abilities about anyone here, because you know NOTHING about any of us. How were you confrontational? Let's see- you called someone a narcissist, twisted his comments out of context, did the same to others- including myself- and now you seem to think I'm incapable of understanding abstract ideas, when it's pretty clear from all the evidence I've given that I CAN. And now you insult someone for spelling errors, and insult my intelligence and mental facilities YET AGAIN. And "I'm" the stubborn one...? Sheesh. Reeeaal classy, there, dude.
I dunno about that, I mean if someone started spewing disordered thoughts and did random acts I can safely assume he has skitzo. I remember I talked about this person with the guildies and they said "You can not claim someone has a personality disorder'' and he I found out the person I suspected did have skitzo, its a terrible disease really.

I think you need to reread my last post. I will give you a magnifying glass to read it as well
I is sorry
Being ignorant of your own shortcomings is just a downfall.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Sarcasm really does NOT become you, dude. Really.

And I am well aware of my own shortcomings, thank you, but lack of understanding of abstractions is NOT one of them. Had a WHOLE lot of study on the subject in high school during four years of high-level English lit and history, as a matter of fact. We even made a specific study of abstract art as a modern art period and how it was connected to the literature of the time when that was a big thing in the 20's and 30's (Picasso, Dali, etc.) So yeah, pretty familiar with the concept, but thanks for reminding me. Fun times.


*sigh* I'd like to say this has been like arguing with a fence post (since I'm from Texas, heh), but even the fence post will eventually admit defeat by falling over, given enough time and rot. This just feels like- talking to a statue. Except that it might eventually crack..... (I'm REAL good with metaphors, too!)

[CyberCubed]

I wish you guys would take this stuff to tumblr so I didn't have to see it.

[Powder]

I wish you guys would take this stuff to tumblr so I didn't have to see it.

http://i58.tinypic.com/1zywjkp.gif

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Cubed, I'm not even ON tumblr. Don't get the purpose of it, honestly. Same with Pinterest, Twitter, etc.... Not enough hours in the day to wast on that stuff. Plus, you're more entertaining, LOL!

[Leo656]

Wow.

Hey, has anybody who's actually... I'unno... ever earned one dime off their writing... ever made it a point to talk about "tropes" or "Mary Sues"? Or is that all just some Internet Genius-speak, from people who can tell professionals how to do their jobs as writers but have nothing to speak of to show from their own "work"?

Just curious. Pretty sure it's the latter, though.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No idea, Leo. I occasionally discuss the tropes and Sue-isms of various franchises, but I HAVE written quite a bit (not PAID for it, but....) so I at least have a frame of reference to work from, and understand what goes INTO writing. Most people really just- don't. It's not as if the stories and characters come out on the page with no effort- there is a LOT of thought and work that goes into creating something that other people will see. Characters may seem like a "self-insert" (And often are, no matter WHO the writer is. Even King has done it. So did Dickens. And SOOO many others.) BUUUT there's usually a good reason why a character is they way they are- either it fits into the story and serves a purpose, or the story itself serves to explain why the character is that way. Just labeling a character with the title of Sue reduces them down to a simple formula, and MOST characters are NOT that simple. Unless the writer isn't doing their job right.

Tropes are really nothing more than common concepts and themes found in nearly all fictional works, both movies, TV, and books or comics. It's not "new", it's just that there's never really been a name for it until the internet age. A trope can be anything from taking an established character's traits and amplifying them, to time-travel stories, to the "common man" who becomes a "Chosen one", and- well, just about anything you can think of in storytelling. It's just a way of identifying the themes and ideas that were used in the work.

[Powder]

Wow.

Hey, has anybody who's actually... I'unno... ever earned one dime off their writing... ever made it a point to talk about "tropes" or "Mary Sues"? Or is that all just some Internet Genius-speak, from people who can tell professionals how to do their jobs as writers but have nothing to speak of to show from their own "work"?

Just curious. Pretty sure it's the latter, though.

Oh it's most definitely the latter.

[IndigoErth]

I wish you guys would take this stuff to tumblr so I didn't have to see it.
I'm so sorry you're being forced to view every thread and read every post against your will. :ohwell::trazz:

Although the "right on the internet" forum trope is being run into the ground. About ten feet deep by now.



Wish I had more of a mind for writing actiony/adventurey stuff... what might be fun is having a character who is a total 120% "Mary Sue/Marty Stu" from the onset, but the underlying theme is the gradual disintegrating of the perfect, powerful epicness they once enjoyed.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I'm so sorry you're being forced to view every thread and read every post against your will. :ohwell::trazz:

Although the "right on the internet" forum trope is being run into the ground. About ten feet deep by now.



Wish I had more of a mind for writing actiony/adventurey stuff... what might be fun is having a character who is a total 120% "Mary Sue/Marty Stu" from the onset, but the underlying theme is the gradual disintegrating of the perfect, powerful epicness they once enjoyed.

You might LOVE my fan-fiction, if that's the case. ;)

[Sahtori]

:o

Dude, ... I do got a question though, but I don't think it fits in this topic. How does one think like the turtles. While we have different seasons/movies.

As for Leo and his brothers making it the TMNT


http://media.giphy.com/media/140Q3PneYyR9N6/giphy.gif

[senpai]

I think Leo's kinda OP; not a "Marty Stu" though. But he's still awesomesauce.

[srmff]

I think Leo's kinda OP; not a "Marty Stu" though. But he's still awesomesauce.

I wouldn't say he's OP. He still can't defeat the Shredder and he only defeated Splinter because he was injured.

The praising at the end didn't bother me because Leo was disheartened that he failed to save Karai and they were making him feel better. It reminded me of the end of Metalhead when Splinter was praising Donnie to cheer him up. It worked in both cases as we see Leo and Donnie smile.

[Tarris Vaal]

It may just be set up as well. Its not uncommon for 'lead' characters to have a build up of power and a perception of invincibility before having the rug pulled out from under them. Luke and Anakin are both good examples of this.

It wouldn't be unlikely that we might be seeing an early development of Leo suffering from pride later down the line - with potentially severe consequences. We've already had similar plot threads occur before (season 2's first episode was a fairly blatant one).

I'm not fond of the Mary sue trope personally, I find its a little simplistic to slam characters with that title, and I think its far too early to be looking at Leo like that anyway. 1 minor healing power does not make him a bland character. He's proven himself a good fighter and a good leader - definitely a 'main' character in the context of the show recently, but that hasn't been the case throughout the season.

I'm starting to think I'll go and hide before the Raph fans start emerging...

[Luckyday]

Again I don't think Leo is turning into a Marty Sue either, or whatever correct term, but I strongly disagree with the idea of making him the main character of the show. That's more of a personal opinion of mine with the reasons that I already mentioned of characters acting differently then when the story was about four main characters instead of just one main character with a supporting cast of those three other guys giving just one liners and are there to make the main character look deep in comparison.

[victory_angel]

It may just be set up as well. Its not uncommon for 'lead' characters to have a build up of power and a perception of invincibility before having the rug pulled out from under them. Luke and Anakin are both good examples of this.

It wouldn't be unlikely that we might be seeing an early development of Leo suffering from pride later down the line - with potentially severe consequences. We've already had similar plot threads occur before (season 2's first episode was a fairly blatant one).

I'm not fond of the Mary sue trope personally, I find its a little simplistic to slam characters with that title, and I think its far too early to be looking at Leo like that anyway. 1 minor healing power does not make him a bland character. He's proven himself a good fighter and a good leader - definitely a 'main' character in the context of the show recently, but that hasn't been the case throughout the season.

I'm starting to think I'll go and hide before the Raph fans start emerging...

Being teenagers they are bound to have moments of over confidence. And even these moments are patterned as far as consequence.

The Gauntlet- Turtles are over confident in their wins and in the end they encounter an enemy they were not ready for.

Pulverizer Returns- Over confident again, don't pay attention to lesson of learning how to use different weapons (and missing a good opportunity to teach each other), lose said weapons on account of that. (pulverizer would have mutated regardless)

Mutation Situation-Over confident again and riding their own win at the defeat of the Kraang and supposed defeat of the Shredder. They lose an ally after one of her family members are mutated because of them.

Invasion can sort of count as over confidence on Leo's part since he chooses to go face Shredder on his own.

But the next time the lot of them are over confident the price would be nearly losing if not the loss of one of their own.

[Rooish]

Werecat, upon reading this thread I must say that knowing nothing about you from before, you come across as a deranged, explosive, abusive conversationalist who should perhaps look up the definition of "psychosis" as it doesn't mean what you think it does anymore.

I was feeling like Leo was becoming a Marty Stu, but Purple Kraken posted a topic and a poll asking people if they thought Leo was a Marty Stu. Presumably this should allow people the opportunity to disagree, but when anyone has you've told them there is no way they can sanely disagree given the evidence and should examine if they have narcissism or "psychosis". Holy crap, that is... a pretty crazy way of responding to people right there.

The TMNT should all be equally important characters, but in practice the heart of the stories tend to fall on Leo and Raph, so I believe that they are main characters more than the other two. Leo more so, because he's the leader and straight man and it's easy to have him carry the story while the other Turtles have bigger personalities to compensate. I think it's okay if Leo is the best fighter, favourite son and most spiritually inclined. This gives Raph more fuel for his anger. Mikey has enough personality to make up for shortcomings and Don has his own skills. So I'd rather Leo not become more of a Marty Stu, but he can be a bit more powerful than the others.

[Werecat]

Werecat, upon reading this thread I must say that knowing nothing about you from before, you come across as a deranged, explosive, abusive conversationalist who should perhaps look up the definition of "psychosis" as it doesn't mean what you think it does anymore.

I was feeling like Leo was becoming a Marty Stu, but Purple Kraken posted a topic and a poll asking people if they thought Leo was a Marty Stu. Presumably this should allow people the opportunity to disagree, but when anyone has you've told them there is no way they can sanely disagree given the evidence and should examine if they have narcissism or "psychosis". Holy crap, that is... a pretty crazy way of responding to people right there.

The TMNT should all be equally important characters, but in practice the heart of the stories tend to fall on Leo and Raph, so I believe that they are main characters more than the other two. Leo more so, because he's the leader and straight man and it's easy to have him carry the story while the other Turtles have bigger personalities to compensate. I think it's okay if Leo is the best fighter, favourite son and most spiritually inclined. This gives Raph more fuel for his anger. Mikey has enough personality to make up for shortcomings and Don has his own skills. So I'd rather Leo not become more of a Marty Stu, but he can be a bit more powerful than the others.
Are you assuming that people around here are sane? At all. That is a total lie if you say yes. You do not know my life, I have studied psychology and various science topics on my own time and academically. Taking the self initiation to enlighten myself on more psychology and science is already a step ahead of a person like you. I highly doubt you understand the definition of psychosis or Marty stu, since the definition is nowhere near covered in your comment. If you did know you could have easily covered it...but you didn't. Eh, seems like you have a symptom of a terrible disease called being a meaner. (Ha, no one will get that reference.)

Also it is proper manners to allow people to debate in peace without you aggravating one side due to your inability to accurately comprehend the current situation. Since when did a debate, rebuttal, and heated conversation become illegal? Your anti-freedom of speech is sickening.

Allow me to label, you, you stoopid silly. Why don't you go live in your loghouse since you disdain innovation and freedom and human rights!
/grabs my maple syrup and KFC bucket and scoffs!

[Leo656]

My Goodness.

[Meliwen]

The TMNT should all be equally important characters, but in practice the heart of the stories tend to fall on Leo and Raph, so I believe that they are main characters more than the other two. Leo more so, because he's the leader and straight man and it's easy to have him carry the story while the other Turtles have bigger personalities to compensate. I think it's okay if Leo is the best fighter, favourite son and most spiritually inclined. This gives Raph more fuel for his anger. Mikey has enough personality to make up for shortcomings and Don has his own skills. So I'd rather Leo not become more of a Marty Stu, but he can be a bit more powerful than the others.
I think it's okay if Leo is specifically favourite son and best at everything if it's addressed correctly in the show, and gives the others, like Raph, a chance to use that to further their own characterization. If the writers are tired of doing another Raph centered anger episode, they could easily write something about his self-esteem. When these qualities of Leo's aren't specifically addressed in the show and provide substance to something other than a super Leo, that's when those traits become annoying to me. Otherwise having a character who's the best at spiritual things, best fighter, jack of all trades, most favourite son, the leader, and best strategist just really seems like too much for one character in a team where all members should be equally important.

As a side note, I've always thought Raph and Leo were at least equal in terms of fighting ability in this show, if not a slight edge to Raph.

[Rooish]

Are you assuming that people around here are sane? At all. That is a total lie if you say yes. No, I definitely never said that.

You do not know my life, I have studied psychology and various science topics on my own time and academically. Taking the self initiation to enlighten myself on more psychology and science is already a step ahead of a person like you. I majored in Psychology in university and have indeed studied the actual phenomenon of psychosis extensively. I didn't say anything about your life, I said you were acting abusive to people on the forum and were misusing the term "psychosis."

I highly doubt you understand the definition of psychosis or Marty stu, since the definition is nowhere near covered in your comment. If you did know you could have easily covered it...but you didn't. Eh, seems like you have a symptom of a terrible disease called being a meaner. Uh, I actually agreed that Leo was at risk of becoming a Marty Stu. If you don't want me to agree with you, I'm not sure exactly what you want from people as you call those who disagree "narcissists" and unable to understand abstract thought.

Also it is proper manners to allow people to debate in peace without you aggravating one side due to your inability to accurately comprehend the current situation. It was not a peaceful debate, mostly because of you.

Allow me to label, you, you stoopid silly. Why don't you go live in your loghouse since you disdain innovation and freedom and human rights! What? A loghouse?

I think it's okay if Leo is specifically favourite son and best at everything if it's addressed correctly in the show, and gives the others, like Raph, a chance to use that to further their own characterization. If the writers are tired of doing another Raph centered anger episode, they could easily write something about his self-esteem. When these qualities of Leo's aren't specifically addressed in the show and provide substance to something other than a super Leo, that's when those traits become annoying to me. Otherwise having a character who's the best at spiritual things, best fighter, jack of all trades, most favourite son, the leader, and best strategist just really seems like too much for one character in a team where all members should be equally important.

As a side note, I've always thought Raph and Leo were at least equal in terms of fighting ability in this show, if not a slight edge to Raph.

Totally agreed.

[Powder]

My Goodness.

Yeah, that about covers it.

[Leo656]

I kind of appreciate how he's trying to rip off my gimmick but I've just plain been doing it longer and better.

Anyways, I can't be bothered to file a Report, but I think someone should, if they haven't already. I could just do it, I guess, but I think I feel a sh*t brewing and that would take priority for the next couple minutes.

[Jester]

I think I'mmma close this thread down while we look into the snipping here.