Movies without racially diverse casts

[THGhost]

I got into an argument with someone the other day. We were discussing the fact that Mad Max: Fury Road has a distinct lack of "non-white" characters.
They claim that any film that doesn't have a racially diverse cast, it is the filmmakers behind it that are responsible for being racist.
This person, from what I could tell, was a female African-American feminist, so their opinion may be a little bias. But their words did shock me slightly.

If a film doesn't have a racially diverse cast, everyone involved with it is instantly classed as a racist? I simply cannot understand this statement.

They also say that any film set in a post-apocalyptic future should abide by the laws of today, i.e. racial equality and therefore cast multiple "non-white" actors in its leading roles.
Did I read this right? We don't live in a post-apocalyptic future. Films set in them are allowed to make up their own laws and filmmakers are allowed to cast whoever they want, regardless of their race.
Besides, there are at least 3 "non-white" actors in Mad Max: Fury Road. Is that not enough for them? I pointed out to them that if the entire cast weren't white or if it was equal, people would still want it to be different. They completely disagreed with me on that. Lunacy.

Please don't any of you intemperate what I'm saying the wrong way. I am in no way a racist. :lol:

[Prowler]

First of all, I can see this thread heading to the Disintegrator Unit fast.

Now as for my opinion on the subject matter, I don't really pay attention to this kind of stuff. Why would I keep track of how many people of each ethnic background star in a movie? And why would every movie need to have every ethic group, gender, sexual orientation, etc. represented in it? Obviously, depending on the plot and the setting, it makes sense for certain movies to have more people of a certain ethnic background than others, since it would make it more accurate. But a movie where there's no need for such thing? Let whoever writes it decide for themselves. As for the audience, are people really that shallow to the point of not being able to enjoy a movie because it lacks people of their own ethnic background in it? Wouldn't it be better for it to lack one than have one done wrong or stereotypical?

And that acquaintance of yours is crazy. Is that all it takes for her to label someone as a racist? Please.

[TheSkeletonMan939]

You can tell if a person is racist if s/he keeps a checklist of all the different races in a movie, and then complains when it isn't up to "code".

[Mew]

So? If a movie has an all white cast, so be it. Same with any other race. Just complaining about it doesn't help. I don't think it's a problem.

[THGhost]

Thank God, I thought I was going insane and was the only one who thinks it's weird to take note of how many different races a movie's cast has. I can rest easy now knowing that this person just believes what they believe a little too heavily.

Do you see people complaining that 12 Years A Slave didn't have enough white actors in it? No, no you do not. Whenever I see anyone bring this sort of thing up and claim that it's racist, it only makes them look racist for bringing it up, or at least to me it does.

First of all, I can see this thread heading to the Disintegrator Unit fast.

Yeah, I was afraid of this. My apologies if I have offended anyone with this topic. I just wanted to hear other people's opinion on the matter.

are people really that shallow to the point of not being able to enjoy a movie because it lacks people of their own ethnic background in it? Wouldn't it be better for it to lack one than have one done wrong or stereotypical?

And that acquaintance of yours is crazy. Is that all it takes for her to label someone as a racist? Please.

I wish I'd have thought of these questions before they blocked me. :lol:

[Powder]

You can tell if a person is racist if s/he keeps a checklist of all the different races in a movie, and then complains when it isn't up to "code".

This is how I feel about it. But of course there are always exceptions & sometimes culture is exclusionary.

[THGhost]

You can tell if a person is racist if s/he keeps a checklist of all the different races in a movie, and then complains when it isn't up to "code".

This is how I feel about it. But of course there are always exceptions & sometimes culture is exclusionary.

Yes to all of this.

[Prowler]

Thank God, I thought I was going insane and was the only one who thinks it's weird to take note of how many different races a movie's cast has. I can rest easy now knowing that this person just believes what they believe a little too heavily.

Do you see people complaining that 12 Years A Slave didn't have enough white actors in it? No, no you do not. Whenever I see anyone bring this sort of thing up and claim that it's racist, it only makes them look racist for bringing it up, or at least to me it does.



Yeah, I was afraid of this. My apologies if I have offended anyone with this topic. I just wanted to hear other people's opinion on the matter.



I wish I'd have thought of these questions before they blocked me. :lol:
Your thread isn't offensive at all. What I meant is, threads about controversial things such as religion, politics, race, etc. aren't allowed here.

Well arguing in real life when you have to think quick is harder than arguing behind a keyboard when you have time to think and formulate your thoughts. . And if they shushed/blocked you, it's even harder.

[THGhost]

I got what I needed, guys. Thanks. Feel free to lock this. ;) :tcool:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

In before it shuts down.

The only movie series I really enjoy that I wish had a more diverse cast would be "Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit". Still great films, but man... between all those dwarves, elves, hobbits, AND men EVERY single one of them is white? :tgrumble:

[Prowler]

In before it shuts down.

The only movie series I really enjoy that I wish had a more diverse cast would be "Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit". Still great films, but man... between all those dwarves, elves, hobbits, AND men EVERY single one of them is white? :tgrumble:
It' was written in the first half of the 20th century and heavily inspired by folk culture and fantasy of English and Germanic mythology. It makes perfect sense that all characters are white, just like in the game Witcher, which is based on Slavic mythology, everyone is white.

[THGhost]

It turns out this person isn't the only one who believes there's too many white characters in Fury Road - http://inthesetimes.com/article/17986/mad-max-fury-road-and-the-glaring-whiteness-of-post-apocalyptic-films

Guess there's no pleasing some people. Since when did this all become such a huge issue?

[Coola Yagami]

Well.... it IS a post-apacolyptic future.... maybe it just so happens that the 4 or 5 survivors just happen to be white/black/whatever. Who really cares?

[THGhost]

Well.... it IS a post-apacolyptic future.... maybe it just so happens that the 4 or 5 survivors just happen to be white/black/whatever. Who really cares?

I mentioned that to them and they said that there is "no canonical reason" for the lack of "non-white" characters in the main cast and that "movies don't exist in a vacuum" and that you "can't remove it from the motivations of the people responsible for making it". I just gave up after that, even though I agree with the vacuum part.

[Venom]

Feel free to keep discussing the topic, I'm not shutting it down unless it goes to hell in a hand basket.

This far, folks have been civil and actually discussed things.

Carry on.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

It' was written in the first half of the 20th century and heavily inspired by folk culture and fantasy of English and Germanic mythology. It makes perfect sense that all characters are white, just like in the game Witcher, which is based on Slavic mythology, everyone is white.

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense; the books were written by the fullblooded English gentleman Tolkien in the 50's, about past European cultures.

The MOVIES are 21st century adaptations. If one of the Fantastic Four can be black; if Heimdall can be black; if many other characters can be changed to be racial minorities, why didn't Jackson take that opportunity?

I'm not hating on him for it; I just wish he had thought outside the Tolkien box on this issue a little more.

[Prowler]

Well.... it IS a post-apacolyptic future.... maybe it just so happens that the 4 or 5 survivors just happen to be white/black/whatever. Who really cares?
Well apparently some people do care. I guess you shouldn't be surprised considering that people complain about the oddest things in tv shows, movies and cartoons. So I guess it's expected that some people notice such patterns about ethnic diversity(or the lack of) in the media.

I mentioned that to them and they said that there is "no canonical reason" for the lack of "non-white" characters in the main cast and that "movies don't exist in a vacuum" and that you "can't remove it from the motivations of the people responsible for making it". I just gave up after that, even though I agree with the vacuum part.
Well, I have not watched the movie, so I have no idea what it's like or if there's anything in the movie that could raise some eyebrows regarding racism, but maybe the best actors they could cast happened to be mostly white or something?

And you said the most recent Mad max movie has 3 non-white characters, so why is that not enough for some people? I mean, how many characters are there in the movie exactly?

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense; the books were written by the fullblooded English gentleman Tolkien in the 50's, about past European cultures.

The MOVIES are 21st century adaptations. If one of the Fantastic Four can be black; if Heimdall can be black; if many other characters can be changed to be racial minorities, why didn't Jackson take that opportunity?

I'm not hating on him for it; I just wish he had thought outside the Tolkien box on this issue a little more.
And how does them being 21st century adaptations counter anything I've said? It's not set in a racially diverse place like the USA or Brazil, but in fantasy world inspired by ancient Britain. So if they wanted to be accurate what sense would it be to have non-white people walking around Middle Earth?

And what do the Fantastic Four have to do with The Lord of the Rings? Completely different pieces of work. The Fantastic Four don't live in a fantasy world based on ancient European mythology.

And changing an established character's ethnic background is not the solution. If they want to diversify the cast then make new characters, simple. Don't change already established ones.

[THGhost]

I'm not saying it doesn't make sense; the books were written by the fullblooded English gentleman Tolkien in the 50's, about past European cultures.

The MOVIES are 21st century adaptations. If one of the Fantastic Four can be black; if Heimdall can be black; if many other characters can be changed to be racial minorities, why didn't Jackson take that opportunity?

I'm not hating on him for it; I just wish he had thought outside the Tolkien box on this issue a little more.

While I agree that is rather odd that he didn't go for it, can you imagine the backlash from fans if their favourite character became black or anything other than their original white race? "He's white in the books so why is he black in the movies? Wah wah wah!" :roll:

And you said the most recent Mad max movie has 3 non-white characters, so why is that not enough for some people? I mean, how many characters are there in the movie exactly?

I asked if 3 was enough and they said that there are "more than three brown or black people in Australia" - where the film is set.

As for how many characters there are, there's quite a lot - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/fullcredits/

And what do the Fantastic Four have to do with The Lord of the Rings? Completely different pieces of work. The Fantastic Four don't live in a fantasy world based on ancient European mythology.

I believe they meant that Johnny Storm has been cast with a black actor for the upcoming reboot, when his character has always been white (not sure about "always", I don't read the F4 comics).

[Prowler]

While I agree that is rather odd that he didn't go for it, can you imagine the backlash from fans if their favourite character became black or anything other than their original white race? "He's white in the books so why is he black in the movies? Wah wah wah!" :roll:



I asked if 3 was enough and they said that there are "more than three brown or black people in Australia" - where the film is set.

As for how many characters there are, there's quite a lot - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1392190/fullcredits/
Ye, but how many of those characters are actually relevant to the plot?

As for Australia's demographics, wouldn't it be more logical to have more people of Aboriginal origin than of African origin in a piece of fiction set in that country? Or maybe even Asians?

[THGhost]

Ye, but how many of those characters are actually relevant to the plot?

I'd say about 6 or 7. I'd have to see the film again to be sure.

As for Australia's demographics, wouldn't it be more logical to have more people of Aboriginal origin than of African origin in a piece of fiction set in that country? Or maybe even Asians?

I'd say so, yes. Clearly the person I talked to hadn't given it enough thought.

[Papenbrook]

Modern media has to be diverse. There are so many different backgrounds that should be explored, and making characters with a homogeneous background is not helping.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

While I agree that is rather odd that he didn't go for it, can you imagine the backlash from fans if their favourite character became black or anything other than their original white race? "He's white in the books so why is he black in the movies? Wah wah wah!" :roll:

I asked if 3 was enough and they said that there are "more than three brown or black people in Australia" - where the film is set.

I believe they meant that Johnny Storm has been cast with a black actor for the upcoming reboot, when his character has always been white (not sure about "always", I don't read the F4 comics).

Yes, yes he has. Johnny Storm is Sue's full brother, with two white parents. Why he would need to be black in the reboot is beyond me.

[Prowler]

Modern media has to be diverse. There are so many different backgrounds that should be explored, and making characters with a homogenous background is not helping.
Generally speaking, I guess. But not every country is multicultural like the ones in the Americas, Australia, etc, so you cannot expect a, let's say, Finnish movie to have a lot of diversity.

And even an American made production that's set during, I dunno, the Middle Ages... doesn't make much sense to have non-white people in it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Modern media has to be diverse. There are so many different backgrounds that should be explored, and making characters with a homogenous background is not helping.


But that only makes sense if it fits with the source material. (See above post for a textbook example.) Films like the Hobbit movies, or Fantastic Four, or other characters whose race is PART of the characters DON'T need changing or given a new and different background just for diversity. Leave that for characters where it doesn't matter.

[Prowler]

But that only makes sense if it fits with the source material. (See above post for a textbook example.) Films like the Hobbit movies, or Fantastic Four, or other characters whose race is PART of the characters DON'T need changing or given a new and different background just for diversity. Leave that for characters where it doesn't matter.
Not to mention a lot of the modern media seems to like to propagate certain tropes and stereotypes about certain groups of people. And that definitely does not help at all. As I've said before, it's best to not have characters of a certain group than having very negatively stereotypes of them.

[THGhost]

An example of a character who's race was changed and not too many people, (if any) cared - Nick Fury in the MCU. He was originally white, but cast as Samuel L. Jackson. Now nobody can imagine anyone else playing him.

These are all very interesting posts, everyone. Nice one keeping things civil. :tcool:

[Cure]

A multi racial group of people always stuck out to me more than a cast of like, all white people. In all my life I've never seen a real life group of friends consist of a white guy, a black guy, an Asian chick, an Indian dude and someone in a wheelchair.

[Jester]

A multi racial group of people always stuck out to me more than a cast of like, all white people. In all my life I've never seen a real life group of friends consist of a white guy, a black guy, an Asian chick, an Indian dude and someone in a wheelchair.
http://blog.cheezburger.com/files/2015/05/hunchbackburgerking5.jpg

[Prowler]

A multi racial group of people always stuck out to me more than a cast of like, all white people. In all my life I've never seen a real life group of friends consist of a white guy, a black guy, an Asian chick, an Indian dude and someone in a wheelchair.
Honestly... until someone in this thread pointed it out, I had honestly never realized that everyone in The Lord of The Rings was white. So you might be on to something there.

[THGhost]

http://blog.cheezburger.com/files/2015/05/hunchbackburgerking5.jpg

He said real life. ;)

Wow, the black kid looks really similar to another cartoon. I forget the name.

Honestly... until someone in this thread pointed it out, I had honestly never realized that everyone in The Lord of The Rings was white. So you might be on to something there.

Nor had I. :P

[Prowler]

http://blog.cheezburger.com/files/2015/05/hunchbackburgerking5.jpg
Is that from Magic School Bus?

Well I guess I can see why they'd do something like that in a cartoon for little kids.

[Jester]

He said real life. ;)

Wow, the black kid looks really similar to another cartoon. I further the name.



Nor had I. :P
I know, I was just saying they'd look like the Burger King Kids' Club Gang.

[THGhost]

I know, I was just saying they'd look like the Burger King Kids' Club Gang.

As a UK citizen, I can tell you I've never heard of that. :P

I'd probably laugh if I ever saw a group like that in real life. I wouldn't believe what I'd be seeing.

I meant to say that I forget the name of the cartoon that the black kid reminds me of. Darn you auto-correct.

[Prowler]

As a UK citizen, I can tell you I've never heard of that. :P


I haven't either. But then again, I don't recall ever eating at Burger King. Only at McDonald's. And I haven't eaten at the latter in ages.

[Jester]

Too be fair the Burger King Kids' Club Gang was a product of the early 90's. :P

Jaws might look like Kwame from Captain Planet:
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/captainplanet/images/4/4f/Volcano093.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100912195347

[THGhost]

Too be fair the Burger King Kids' Club Gang was a product of the early 90's. :P

That explains it then. :)

The person I spoke with can't enjoy that many movies if they analyse them for racial diversity. A lot of them have predominantly white casts. Sure, it sucks that other races aren't represented enough on-screen, but that's just the way it is right now.

I'm still annoyed that Scarlett Johansson is playing the lead role in the upcoming live-action Ghost in the Shell movie. Why not a Japanese actress?

[Prowler]

Too be fair the Burger King Kids' Club Gang was a product of the early 90's. :P


Ah ok. I was born in 1990.

The person I spoke with can't enjoy that many movies if they analyse them for racial diversity. A lot of them have predominantly white casts. Sure, it sucks that other races aren't represented enough on-screen, but that's just the way it is right now.

I'm still annoyed that Scarlett Johansson is playing the lead role on the upcoming live-action Ghost in the Shell movie. Why not a Japanese actress?
It would make more sense,yes, but i couldn't care less anyway. You know why? Because I wasn't going to watch it in the first place. I've seen the anime already. Not gonna watch a live action adaptation that's probably gonna be quite inferior to the original. Screw the supposed Monster live-action trilogy, too.

[THGhost]

Ah ok. I was born in 1990.


It would make more sense,yes, but i couldn't care less anyway. You know why? Because I wasn't going to watch it in the first place. I've seen the anime already. Not gonna watch a live action adaptation that's probably gonna be quite inferior to the original. Screw the supposed Monster live-action trilogy, too.

1992 for me.

Oh it's definitely gonna be inferior. :lol:

I really need to go to sleep now. It's 4am here in the UK. I look forward to reading more responses. Catch y'all later. :tcool:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

An example of a character who's race was changed and not too many people, (if any) cared - Nick Fury in the MCU. He was originally white, but cast as Samuel L. Jackson. Now nobody can imagine anyone else playing him.

These are all very interesting posts, everyone. Nice one keeping things civil. :tcool:


To be fair, though, Sam's depiction of Nick Fury is based on the Marvel Ultimate universe- where the character's look was based ON HIM. Marvel was just doing what the Tomb Raider movies did by using the person that version of the character was modeled after to PLAY the character. Big difference. The only time 616(mainline universe) Nick Fury has been portrayed in film was by David Hasselhoff- and the resemblence was scary accurate. (Even though the movie sucked.)


That explains it then. :)

The person I spoke with can't enjoy that many movies if they analyse them for racial diversity. A lot of them have predominantly white casts. Sure, it sucks that other races aren't represented enough on-screen, but that's just the way it is right now.

I'm still annoyed that Scarlett Johansson is playing the lead role in the upcoming live-action Ghost in the Shell movie. Why not a Japanese actress?


Not me. She's one of the few action movie actresses that I could see pull it off, regardless of race. Though I suppose if she could fight, the actress who played Karai in last year's TMNT might work. I'd have to see how she is in the role, first.

[plastroncafe]

1) There were people of color in Europe. So saying, "It makes sense that they're white, because everyone there is white," is factually incorrect.
http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/ for some references.

2) The Lord of the Rings books have some massive racial issues. It's sad that Jackson didn't address and correct some of these issues in his own fillms. I mean come on, the Dwarves are rocking some pretty heinous Jewish stereotypes, and the Men From the East who side with Sauron are the only dark people in the entire thing, and they arrive on elephants.

3) Johnny and Sue Storm's father in the new movie is black.
He's in the trailer. You can't miss him.
And even if Sue ends up being adopted, and not a bi-racial woman who can pass for white, are we really going to stay that adopted children aren't the "real" children of someone? Here? On a ninja turtle board? Where the main characters are an adoptive family?

4) It's sad that there weren't more faces of color in Mad Max, as Australia has a rather sizable Aboriginal population...that they've been disenfranchising and committing genocide against since Botany Bay.
The Wives were ethnically diverse...and also wearing chastity belts.

5) White as Default is a concept that can't fade away fast enough.
Especially in Hollywood.
Where casting calls for people to play Katara of the Southern Water Tribe, and Katniss Everdeen of District Twelve request white actresses only.
Neither one of those characters is mentioned as white. Katara's entire culture is based off Inuit, and Katnis is described has having dark hair and olive skin.

Of course...there were people freaking out when Rue was shown to be a small black girl. People upset to the nth degree, because how stupid it was for her to be black. She's supposed to represent purity!
Except, the text specifically says she's black.

Where as Hermione has no race or mention of her skin color in Harry Potter, but you'll mostly find her depicted as white.

[CyberCubed]

Many older shows/movies from the 60's and 70's have an all-white cast. Then again most Hollywood actors were mostly white back then.

[sdp]

Maybe it's because I was raised in the 90s but I love racially diverse casts, I don't care how ridiculous it may look. I also don't notice if the cast is all white, I do notice however when the whole cast is white but they just happen to have this new black recurring cast member who shows up occasionally, it sticks out. I also hate when they change the gender of established characters, I don't mind Nick Fury since he is based on Ultimate Fury but yeah usually it makes me mad if it's a big change.

[ssjup81]

I've just come to accept that no matter what, that minorities will always be rarely portrayed in film and TV still. Seriously, this is 2015. More films and shows in general should be reflecting that the US is made up of many different ethnicities and races, but most are majority white. You don't really need a "checklist" to notice this or be "racist". Maybe because I'm black, it's just easier for me to see. I dunno.

As you know, I'm in Japan. Most of the American media shown here are generally all-white or majority white programming or film. When I first moved here, it was automatically assumed I was from South America or Africa because of my dark skin. I said the US, but it was like, "No, where are you really from?" You know, in surprise. It's kind of expected for Americans wandering around here to be white since that's what the media shows.

So yeah, I see where that girl was partially coming from, but I don't feel the movie industry is racist or anything...they just don't know how to deal with ethnics or how to cast roles that aren't race or ethnically specific.

[XERO]

http://images.moviepostershop.com/white-men-cant-jump-movie-poster-1992-1020265422.jpg

[MsMarvelDuckie]

3) Johnny and Sue Storm's father in the new movie is black.
He's in the trailer. You can't miss him.
And even if Sue ends up being adopted, and not a bi-racial woman who can pass for white, are we really going to stay that adopted children aren't the "real" children of someone? Here? On a ninja turtle board? Where the main characters are an adoptive family?



Was referring to the COMICS. You know, the SOURCE material? Last I checked their family was all white there. I don't give a crap how they try to "explain" it for the new movie- it's just a cheap move to placate minority movie-goers who want to see more "diversity" in a movie about ICONIC heroes who are, CANONICALLY, Caucasian. That's like making Superman Latinino just to appeal to that demographic, even though there is NO good reason to do so.

Don't get me wrong here, I approve of racial diversity- when it makes sense. FF doesn't. And one could easily make the same argument in reverse for movies like Friday or, well, anything by Spike Lee.

[plastroncafe]

One could make the reverse argument, but it wouldn't be the same argument.
Again, I refer to this really great explanation from tumblr user timemachineyeah:

http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters

Also, a bit of a pedantic argument, but...I'm fairly certain Reed, Sue, and Johnny don't come from the Caucasus Mountain area, so referring to them as Caucasian is a bit of a misnomer. They are traditionally white in the comics though, you are correct.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=caucasian
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/caucasian

And...Superman can't be Latino, he's from Krypton. He'd be Kryptonian regardless of the color of his skin.
Plus, he's already been played by an actor of color in Dean Cain who is of Japanese, English, Irish, Welsh, and French-Canadian ancestry.

[Jester]

I still hold out hope for Terry Crews as the Thing at some point. I think he'd be a great fit the character, regardless of race.

[THGhost]

I believe all forms of media are open to interpretation. But if a character is of a specific ethnic background in the source material then they should probably stay that way in the adaptation(s) as a means of staying true to it and what the author originally intended. Although if it makes no difference whatsoever to the character, then I don't see why not. It's a tricky subject with no right or wrong answer.

Jaws might look like Kwame from Captain Planet:
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/captainplanet/images/4/4f/Volcano093.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100912195347

Nah, that wasn't it. I think it was a Disney Channel show.

[Allio]

honestly I don't care about character's race.

call me cliche, but I care more about the character's peronality rather than their appearance

[THGhost]

honestly I don't care about character's race.

call me cliche, but I care more about the character's personality rather than their appearance

Words to live by!

[plastroncafe]

I don't understand, if that's what you actually believe then why start a thread like this at all? If the race/ethnicity of a character is inconsequential, then why complain in the first place?

[THGhost]

I don't understand, if that's what you actually believe then why start a thread like this at all? If the race/ethnicity of a character is inconsequential, then why complain in the first place?

Allio's post is a totally different viewpoint to the person I originally spoke with. They want more black characters in a movie where it wouldn't entirely make sense, Allio couldn't care less. I agree with the latter. :P

[plastroncafe]

I'm sincerely boggled by this. The entire point of this thread, the hill you're dying on...argumentatively speaking, is that people of color have no reason to be in a movie about a Post Apocalyptic Australia.

Okay first:
People of color don't need a reason to exist. They do exist. That should be enough.

Second:
Arguing that there needs to be a reason for people of color to exist in a movie about Australia is really REALLY problematic given the history of European Settlers/Colonialism in Australia.

Third:
All of this, to me, says that you're okay with a future that doesn't have people of color in it. And I find that troubling.

[THGhost]

I'm sincerely boggled by this. The entire point of this thread, the hill you're dying on...argumentatively speaking, is that people of color have no reason to be in a movie about a Post Apocalyptic Australia.

Okay first:
People of color don't need a reason to exist. They do exist. That should be enough.

Second:
Arguing that there needs to be a reason for people of color to exist in a movie about Australia is really REALLY problematic given the history of European Settlers/Colonialism in Australia.

Third:
All of this, to me, says that you're okay with a future that doesn't have people of color in it. And I find that troubling.

Try not to think too hard about it, because that's not what I'm saying at all. I apologise if it was implied.

I'm not here to argue. This was already a risky topic for this forum to begin with.

[Prowler]

1) There were people of color in Europe. So saying, "It makes sense that they're white, because everyone there is white," is factually incorrect.
http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/ for some references.

2) The Lord of the Rings books have some massive racial issues. It's sad that Jackson didn't address and correct some of these issues in his own fillms. I mean come on, the Dwarves are rocking some pretty heinous Jewish stereotypes, and the Men From the East who side with Sauron are the only dark people in the entire thing, and they arrive on elephants.

3) Johnny and Sue Storm's father in the new movie is black.
He's in the trailer. You can't miss him.
And even if Sue ends up being adopted, and not a bi-racial woman who can pass for white, are we really going to stay that adopted children aren't the "real" children of someone? Here? On a ninja turtle board? Where the main characters are an adoptive family?

4) It's sad that there weren't more faces of color in Mad Max, as Australia has a rather sizable Aboriginal population...that they've been disenfranchising and committing genocide against since Botany Bay.
The Wives were ethnically diverse...and also wearing chastity belts.

5) White as Default is a concept that can't fade away fast enough.
Especially in Hollywood.
Where casting calls for people to play Katara of the Southern Water Tribe, and Katniss Everdeen of District Twelve request white actresses only.
Neither one of those characters is mentioned as white. Katara's entire culture is based off Inuit, and Katnis is described has having dark hair and olive skin.

Of course...there were people freaking out when Rue was shown to be a small black girl. People upset to the nth degree, because how stupid it was for her to be black. She's supposed to represent purity!
Except, the text specifically says she's black.

Where as Hermione has no race or mention of her skin color in Harry Potter, but you'll mostly find her depicted as white.

Well, obviously there was a non-white person or two walking about back then. After all, not every moor, african or middle-eastern slave had been killed and a few might have had kids with local whites.

Back when TLoTR was written, people really didn't care much about racism and such, so unsurprising. And if Jackson wanted to depict the source material as accurately as possible, then why should he have cast black and asian people? Whether people like it or not, there's a contextual period when TLoTR was written. And casting non-white people to play roles in it would give people the idea that things like that have always been well-accepted, even back in the 20s-30s. That would be borderline history revisionism.

And yes. Tolkien was kinda racist, this isn't news. But I honestly had never noticed such things in the movies and nor have most people, from what I gather.

And how would putting Aboriginal people in Mad Max make their situation any better? It's not like the people who made it had any obligation or responsibility to portray the Aboriginals or their struggle in the movie.

Hermione has no race? Well, considering the Harry Potter books were written by a British woman and set in an alternate fantasy version of Britain, I think it's pretty safe to assume she's always been white.

I've just come to accept that no matter what, that minorities will always be rarely portrayed in film and TV still. Seriously, this is 2015. More films and shows in general should be reflecting that the US is made up of many different ethnicities and races, but most are majority white. You don't really need a "checklist" to notice this or be "racist". Maybe because I'm black, it's just easier for me to see. I dunno.

That makes sense. The first time I watched Fresh Prince of Bel-Air I noticed "oh the main characters are all black".

And even though I don't keep track of it, I never noticed a lack of non-white people in American television. Obviously there are more white actors, but most people in the USA are white, so it makes perfect sense to me.

[plastroncafe]

Well, obviously there was a non-white person or two walking about back then. After all, not every moor, african or middle-eastern slave had been killed and a few might have had kids with local whites.

One or two? Try thousands.

Back when TLoTR was written, people really didn't care much about racism and such, so unsurprising. And if Jackson wanted to depict the source material as accurately as possible, then why should he have cast black and asian people? Whether people like it or not, there's a contextual period when TLoTR was written. And casting non-white people to play roles in it would give people the idea that things like that have always been well-accepted, even back in the 20s-30s. That would be borderline history revisionism.

White people didn't really seem to care about racism in the years 1937 to 1955, which is the time period in which Lord of the Rings was written and published. But keep in mind that in the US during this time period there were water fountains, sections of public buses, and schools that were set aside to keep black people and white people from intermingling. We had riots here in Boston when they tried to integrate the school system as recently as the 1960s and 1970s.
Hobbits, Dragons, Elves, Dwarves...as a separate race of humanoids, and not those with growth hormone deficiency, Orcs, and Goblins don't exist. Isn't that revising history a bit? Also, is there some rule that Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins have to be white?

That's not even touching the actual revisions that Jackson et al made to the text to make it a little more suitable for filming.

And yes. Tolkien was kinda racist, this isn't news. But I honestly had never noticed such things in the movies and nor have most people, from what I gather.

I can assure you that People of Color and Jewish people noticed.

And how would putting Aboriginal people in Mad Max make their situation any better? It's not like the people who made it had any obligation or responsibility to portray the Aboriginals or their struggle in the movie.

You are correct, that the filmmakers were under no obligation, but it would have been nice.


Hermione has no race? Well, considering the Harry Potter books were written by a British woman and set in an alternate fantasy version of Britain, I think it's pretty safe to assume she's always been white.

...white as default can't go away soon enough.

Look, I get that this isn't something that affects you very much. And that it's not high on your list of priorities. We're not likely to see eye to eye on this any time soon.
I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with are concerns that people hold in high regard being dismissed out of hand by people largely unaffected by them.

[Prowler]

Elves, Hobbits, Dwarves being mythological creatures imagined by Europeans... what else should they look like? I bet Africans imagined their mythical gods and spirits as black, too. And the Japanese imagined theirs as japanese.

And how is that "white as default"? If the book had been written by a Japanese person, Hermione would have been Japanese, simple. This isn't some conspiracy. Are you honestly suggesting there was an equal chance of Hermione not being white?

As for Jewish people and "people of color" have noticed it and "it would have been nice", I understand and respect your opinion.

[Candy Kappa]

looks like someone isn't aware that you can be a non-white person and British. :lol:


A long run theory is that Hermonie was a woman of color, or at least mixed.

[plastroncafe]

Elves, Hobbits, Dwarves being mythological creatures imagined by Europeans... what else should they look like? I bet Africans imagined their mythical gods and spirits as black, too. And the Japanese imagined theirs as japanese.

All Europeans are not white.

What I find kind of interesting by this last point you make here is just how many white people insist that Anime and Manga characters are white, because they don't have the same "design trappings" Western animation gives Asian characters.

The sheer number of people who insist that Aang and Zuko are white.
Or that it's some how okay to make Akira and/or Ghost in the Shell with an all white liveaction cast.
Apparently this historical realness that is used to defend the dearth of non-white faces in something like Mad Max or Lord of the Rings, is forgotten when movies Akira gets made.

And how is that "white as default"? If the book had been written by a Japanese person, Hermione would have been Japanese, simple. This isn't some conspiracy. Are you honestly suggesting there was an equal chance of Hermione not being white?


There are plenty of non-white people out there who are bookworms, have uncontrollable hair and whose parents are both dentists. This is pretty much all we get regarding Hermione.

Oh...and that she magics her troublesome-to-her front teeth a bit smaller.

[Prowler]

looks like someone isn't aware that you can be a non-white person and British. :lol:
I'm perfectly aware of that. But most British people are white. So if someone is British it's most likely they're gonna be white. This isn't rocket science.

All Europeans are not white.



There are plenty of non-white people out there who are bookworms, have uncontrollable hair and whose parents are both dentists. This is pretty much all we get regarding Hermione.

Oh...and that she magics her troublesome-to-her front teeth a bit smaller.

Now you seem to be assuming I'm stereotyping being a bookworm and having dentist parents as being white. Way to be reaching. That says more about you than it says about me.

And I know there are non-white Europeans but most are white.

[plastroncafe]

No what I'm saying is that in the absence of any clear indicator of ethnicity/race you default to characters being white.

We all have rote defaults when given unknowns about people.
When I come here I expect most of the commentators to be male, white, and straight.
When I'm on tumblr I expect them to be female and...well that's about it for tumblr, to be honest.

There is absolutely nothing other than white default that says Hermione in the text of Harry Potter is white.

Now I don't know what conversation Rowling had with the illustrator who created the cover art was, which could have been:

Oh Hermione is white, and I don't mention she's white in the text because...people don't make a habit of mentioning that white people are white.

[Amaranthus]

I went to London and saw a lot of black people, and I mean on the way to London, so don't start claiming they were tourists.
This doesn't mean that I'll disapprove of a movie if it only has white people in it though.

[Candy Kappa]

As an addition. Dwarves, at least the Norse dwarves/black elves are described with dark skin.

And early depictions off the Norse gods had slanted/almond eyes, leading to a very interesting (but now debunked) theory that the gods where based off actual Mongolian horse masters.

[plastroncafe]

I was kind of sad that the character designs for "Frozen" didn't reflect the people who actually live where the fable takes place.

Here's a breakdown of Frozen from someone of the region. (http://selchieproductions.tumblr.com/tagged/frozen)

[Prowler]

You edited your post after I wrote mine, so there's some points I have not covered. I'm about to address them now, though.

One or two? Try thousands.



White people didn't really seem to care about racism in the years 1937 to 1955, which is the time period in which Lord of the Rings was written and published. But keep in mind that in the US during this time period there were water fountains, sections of public buses, and schools that were set aside to keep black people and white people from intermingling. We had riots here in Boston when they tried to integrate the school system as recently as the 1960s and 1970s.
Hobbits, Dragons, Elves, Dwarves...as a separate race of humanoids, and not those with growth hormone deficiency, Orcs, and Goblins don't exist. Isn't that revising history a bit? Also, is there some rule that Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Goblins have to be white?

I know that the USA has a long history of racism and segregation. I didn't need a history lesson from you. And I dont' see what does that have to do with The Lord of the Rings.

And again, being legends made by Europeans seems logical to me for them to be white. Now, would black or asian people ruin my enjoyment of TLoTR, though? No. I'd just shrug and move on with my life. Hell, I've been watching these movies since I was a little kid. You think I'd have noticed such a thing when I was like 10-11 years old? Of course not.

Look, I get that this isn't something that affects you very much. And that it's not high on your list of priorities. We're not likely to see eye to eye on this any time soon.
I'm okay with that. What I'm not okay with are concerns that people hold in high regard being dismissed out of hand by people largely unaffected by them.
And you're correct. It doesn't really affect me, so maybe that's why I have trouble understanding your side and of some people on this matter. But discussing it with you should at least mean that I'm interested in understanding your concerns, should it not?

All Europeans are not white.

What I find kind of interesting by this last point you make here is just how many white people insist that Anime and Manga characters are white, because they don't have the same "design trappings" Western animation gives Asian characters.

The sheer number of people who insist that Aang and Zuko are white.
Or that it's some how okay to make Akira and/or Ghost in the Shell with an all white liveaction cast.
Apparently this historical realness that is used to defend the dearth of non-white faces in something like Mad Max or Lord of the Rings, is forgotten when movies Akira gets made.
Yes, many white people think anime characters are white. Just like I've seen many black people say that as well. And no, I don't believe that. It's done out of ignorance, because, except for the eyes, there isn't much of a physical difference between whites and east asians. And since anime characters are drawn with big eyes, some people are gonna make an honest mistake like that.


I went to London and saw a lot of black people, and I mean on the way to London, so don't start claiming they were tourists.
This doesn't mean that I'll disapprove of a movie if it only has white people in it though.
And? So did I. Also, Indians. Here in Lisbon there's plenty of blacks, chinese people and gypsies. And Yet, 97-98% of my country is white. A capital city's demographics don't represent a whole country's.

As an addition. Dwarves, at least the Norse dwarves/black elves are described with dark skin.

And early depictions off the Norse gods had slanted/almond eyes, leading to a very interesting (but now debunked) theory that the gods where based off actual Mongolian horse masters.
Well I didn't know about the first part.

As for your second part, you said it's been debunked so that's no longer relevant.

As for Hermione... well just ask JKK Rowling what her race was intended to be, then. Simple. There's your answer.

[Amaranthus]

And? So did I. Also, Indians. Here in Lisbon there's plenty of blacks, chinese people and gypsies. And Yet, 97-98% of my country is white. A capital city's demographics don't represent a whole country's.

But you said most Brits where white.
Never mind though, I don't care enough to keep going on. It honestly doesn't interest me that much.

[Candy Kappa]

Kristoff could be a white passing Sami who've suffered christianization, though.

But, frozen have extremely little with the actual story omitting all off the non-white characters... And missing the actual story...

[Prowler]

But you said most Brits where white.
Never mind though, I don't care enough to keep going on. It honestly doesn't interest me that much.
And they aren't? And how does that equal to "there aren't any non-white people in the UK!"? If about 80-90 percent of British people are white then it means most are white.

I suck at math but this seems pretty obvious to me.

[plastroncafe]

Kristoff could be a white passing Sami who've suffered christianization, though.

But, frozen have extremely little with the actual story omitting all off the non-white characters... And missing the actual story...

It did have a cute snowman though!
That...uh...makes up for something?

Actually, I kind of think it does. I feel that as of late the "animal/non-human" sidekicks in kids cartoons are a little too hammy. I don't have a high-tolerance for incompetent comic relief. But Olaf and the reindeer were just awkward enough without tripping that particular trigger of mine.

SO good job, Frozen.

[Candy Kappa]

That is the best part of Frozen, the funny sidekicks are actually funny.and I do like the movie overall.

[plastroncafe]

It's cute! And the twists were delightful as well.
Over all I really enjoyed it.

And at the same time criticize it for its faults. Because it's my job as a responsible consumer of media to be critical of it, and because I know that all of my favorite things have the potential to be problematic.

I love Scarlett Johanson, but I think she's the wrong choice for "Ghost in the Shell." And I think having an all white "Akira" cast, and moving the location to the States is a huge mistake and very culturally insensitive. The damn thing is about the horrors of atomic aftermath, and to have the US make a white American version of that movie is kind of gross.

Just as I love Tilda Swinton, but think she's the wrong choice for The Ancient One in the new Doctor Strange movie.

I keep seeing people say that there are just more white actors, and...okay, statistically that may be true, but...a lot of these auditions request white actors. Ask for more people, open the casting up, and we'll get better representation...and better performances.

[Candy Kappa]

Well I didn't know about the first part.

As for your second part, you said it's been debunked so that's no longer relevant.

As for Hermione... well just ask JKK Rowling what her race was intended to be, then. Simple. There's your answer.

It's debunked due to there is no physical evidence that Mongolians have visited the Norse (or vice versa) during that time period those drawings come from, and Thor Heyerdahl who had the theory is now dead. So people have stopped researching it.

As far as I know, Rowling haven't stated anything, but she did like a article that theorized that Hermonie was non-white, Desi I think.

[Prowler]

It's cute! And the twists were delightful as well.
Over all I really enjoyed it.

And at the same time criticize it for its faults. Because it's my job as a responsible consumer of media to be critical of it, and because I know that all of my favorite things have the potential to be problematic.

I love Scarlett Johanson, but I think she's the wrong choice for "Ghost in the Shell." And I think having an all white "Akira" cast, and moving the location to the States is a huge mistake and very culturally insensitive. The damn thing is about the horrors of atomic aftermath, and to have the US make a white American version of that movie is kind of gross.

Just as I love Tilda Swinton, but think she's the wrong choice for The Ancient One in the new Doctor Strange movie.

I keep seeing people say that there are just more white actors, and...okay, statistically that may be true, but...a lot of these auditions request white actors. Ask for more people, open the casting up, and we'll get better representation...and better performances.
I agree that casting ScarJo and white people for Akira is stupid. Man, imagine if Shredder turned out to be white in the most recent Turtles flick, after all? One of the rare cases where fan backlash actually was heard.

I have seen GITS anime already and will read or watch Akira in the future. The hollywood adaptations of both... it's as if they didn't exist to me. I doubt they'll add anything new to it and I'm pretty sure they're gonna suck in comparison to the originals.

[Ninturtle]

I couldn't care less about racial diversity. If the cast is diverse that's cool if it's not that's also cool. Why should I judge the quality of a movie based on the race of it's charecters ( unless it doesn't make sense or it's a very established character who has always been a certain race.

[Prowler]

As far as I know, Rowling haven't stated anything, but she did like a article that theorized that Hermonie was non-white, Desi I think.
I have not read the HP books, only watched about 3 movies(I think). So what is the basis for the theory that Hermione might have not been white if apparently neither Rowling states such a thing and nowhere in the book is it stated either?

And wouldn't Rowling have disapproved of Emma Watson's casting if that was the case, then? Or did she not have much creative control over her property or she was more Kevin Eastmanish than Peter Lairdish?

[BabyTurtles]

It would be NICE for movies to have more diversity.

I say never stop complaining about it till people get it.

If we stop saying we want diversity then we are never gonna get diversity.

[ssjup81]

I believe all forms of media are open to interpretation. But if a character is of a specific ethnic background in the source material then they should probably stay that way in the adaptation(s) as a means of staying true to it and what the author originally intended. Although if it makes no difference whatsoever to the character, then I don't see why not. It's a tricky subject with no right or wrong answer.



Nah, that wasn't it. I think it was a Disney Channel show.Probably Recess.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I couldn't care less about racial diversity. If the cast is diverse that's cool if it's not that's also cool. Why should I judge the quality of a movie based on the race of it's charecters ( unless it doesn't make sense or it's a very established character who has always been a certain race.


This pretty much sums up how I feel. Especially the last part. If it doesn't matter to the story, why should I give a frick about which character is what race? But if a character is canonically stated/implied to be OF a certain race, then yes, please don't change it. (Although I'm willing to give it a chance if they can make it work. Kusinagi could well be Asian-American or something in the movie, with a white parent or something, so.... Maybe? Her appearance is ambiguous enough to let it slide- POSSIBLY. Storm, on the other hand makes ZERO sense. NO excuse for that one. Just like I'd cry BS all the way to Hollywood to smack someone up-side the head if they ever made Blade white.....)

[ProactiveMan]

4) It's sad that there weren't more faces of color in Mad Max, as Australia has a rather sizable Aboriginal population...that they've been disenfranchising and committing genocide against since Botany Bay.


I see what you are trying to say, but genocide is probably not the right word. Disenfranchisement, inexcusable violence, cultural assimilation, yes, ashamedly so, but we certainly have not been committing genocide since Botany Bay. The massacre of the indigenous Tasmanian population in the 1820s was close, but it's not true to say that they were totally destroyed. Their descendants survive.

As to the point about racial diversity, I really can't think of a good reason why there couldn't have been more diversity in Fury Road. Food for thought I guess.

For the record, Indigenous Australians make up approximately 3% of the population and there are a number of prominent Aboriginal actors.

[Warhorse]

He said real life. ;)

Wow, the black kid looks really similar to another cartoon. I forget the name.



Nor had I. :P

Damn, I guess I am the abnormal one here. Most of my ethicity is German, Italian and Polish, but I have a great uncle that was Vietnamese, two adopted Korean girls that are my cousins, and I have an uncle that is Seminole. Then, my friends consist of a pretty good size melting pot. 2 Cuban Americans, 2 African American sisters, and 2 Jamaicans. I also had a close friend who was Mexican American, in a wheel chair, due to MS, but she died from complications of the flu a few years back. Miss her, we had a blast at the BackStreet Boys concert about a decade ago.:cry: