Tmnt vs batman - who wins?

[MrTMNT2012]

Simple. As soon as the Batman/TMNT Crossover was announced, me and my friend got into this massive debate!

He thinks Batman wins hands down even if all 4 Turtles from ANY version team up on him.

Thoughts/Rebuttals?

[Powder]

http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=52772

[Leo656]

Besides, it's a dumb question. As if a guy who can beat up 40 ninjas couldn't beat up 4 of 'em.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I really want the Turtles to win. But an honest and critical analysis leaves me with only one answer...

I really want the Turtles to win. :tlol:

[Leo656]

They're not so special.

[TurtleTitan97]

Batman is literally considered to be one of the greatest martial artists in the DC Universe. Not to mention that he has been able to toe to toe with godlike beings, from Superman to Darkseid.

So it wouldn't be much of a fight between the Turtles and himself.

[Xav]

Besides, it's a dumb question. As if a guy who can beat up 40 ninjas couldn't beat up 4 of 'em.True, but haven't the Turtles beat up tons of ninjas as well?

[Leo656]

None of those ninjas were also Batman. It's a subtle but important distinction.

All Batman are Ninjas, but NOT All Ninjas are Batman.

[MrTMNT2012]

Besides, it's a dumb question. As if a guy who can beat up 40 ninjas couldn't beat up 4 of 'em.

Underselling the whole MUTATED TURTLES thing aren't we?

[Leo656]

If he barely flinches at Killer Croc, I don't think the fact they look a little odd would give Batman any pause.

[Xav]

All Batman are Ninjas, but NOT All Ninjas are Batman.Adam West Batman was a ninja?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

My answer? Splinter. Batman MIGHT beat the turtles one on one, or even all four, but once DAD gets involved, its all over. Plus, Batman my be one of the greatest martial artists in the world, but the turtles are among the greatest in the multiverse! Battle Nexus champ, here, duh!!!

Or, alternately (according to my hubby) it would end in a draw and Donnie would hand Bruce his resume for a job at Wayne Enterprises!!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Adam West Batman was a ninja?

The less said about THAT iteration, the better. Where's a puking Turtle emoticon when I need one?

My answer? Splinter. Batman MIGHT beat the turtles one on one, or even all four, but once DAD gets involved, its all over. Plus, Batman my be one of the greatest martial artists in the world, but the turtles are among the greatest in the multiverse! Battle Nexus champ, here, duh!!!

Or, alternately (according to my hubby) it would end in a draw and Donnie would hand Bruce his resume for a job at Wayne Enterprises!!

You make a really good point... Battle Nexus champion and multiverse.

I'm revising my original opinion and yeah, Splinter and the Turtles as a team would hand Wayne his ass. And a job application. Lucius Fox needs a mutant turtle successor. :tlol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I know, right? Imagine Fox and Donnie working together? Or Bruce and Leo working out strategy? Mikey might help Alfred out in the kitchen, and Raph- he could maybe help Bruce train/spar or something.

[Wildcat]

Both are highly skilled fighters and good at stealth. Both use armored and weaponized vehicles.

Batman has more, to the point of deus ex machina sometimes but it is still 4 against 1.

I suppose I'd give the turtles the edge since there's 4 of them. I don't know. It's a hard choice.

[Andrew NDB]

He would annihilate even the Mirage TMNT. But the fun of it is how it becomes "Let's fight!" (c'mon, it wouldn't be a crossover if there wasn't a bit of that) to "Oh sh*t, let's team up to fight the common enemy!" and I'd be lying if I said that isn't highly interesting to me.

[Candy Kappa]

Batman wins.

[Slade]

Yeah, Bats takes it. He even takes Splinter.

[MrTMNT2012]

If he barely flinches at Killer Croc, I don't think the fact they look a little odd would give Batman any pause.

I didn't mean appearance, I meant that as in they have SUPERHUMAN strength and way better defence with stuff like their Shells etc.

And what if they wear their strongest armour (Cybernet, Exo-Skeleton, Fast Forward)? It's only fair since Batman's wearing armour....

[PangolinFeets]

How would you rate Batman against the Shredder?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Oof. That'd be bloody.

[Zak The Neutrino]

I'm in the minority that dislikes Batman so I say turtles. :tgrin:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I don't DISLIKE Bats, I just think too many people "pump him up" power-wise far too often. Unlike Supes, he's NOT some all-powerful, invincible being. He's HUMAN. with the same limitations and weaknesses as ANY human. the turtles are mutants, which implies certain advantages over a human, no matter HOW well trained and fit. And even in smarts, they have at LEAST his equal among them, if not his better.

[Candy Kappa]

I didn't mean appearance, I meant that as in they have SUPERHUMAN strength and way better defence with stuff like their Shells etc.

And what if they wear their strongest armour (Cybernet, Exo-Skeleton, Fast Forward)? It's only fair since Batman's wearing armour....

They've rarely been displayed having Superhuman Strenght, Peak Human Strenght is more accurate. And it's been shown that besides a certain movie, the shell don't give that much protection, it's not Kevlar, it's just bones and scutes, and as an add on. turtles do have nerves in the shell and do feel through it, like pain for example.

There are three conditions Batman will win on.

1. Writers hard-on for Batman: Batman in modern comics will always win cause current writers don't know any better.

2. Ninjas Rule no 3. Ninjas in numbers are useless and canon fodder, Batman being a lone Ninja will automatically win cause his power level exceeds the number of Ninjas he'll be fighting. Basic Ninjas fiction logic.

3. Batman is simply more skilled, he knows more martial arts, and is highly skilled in the arts of stealth and misdirection, something the TMNT often usually lack. The Turtles are good, but not that good. Plus, Batman got fancier toys that wasn't crudely fashioned in a sewer.

By all means, it would have been a spectacular fight, but Batman goes on top, with no casualties because Batman is a professional Superhero.

[Splinter the boss]

I would go with the turtles. And to the person above who said that the turtles rarely display superhuman strength, I recommend watching the turtles kicking Traag, the rock monster from dimension x, right to the ground in the nick show.

[Candy Kappa]

You don't have to recommend it, I've seem the episode. There is a line between Superhuman a Strenght and Peak Human Strenght.

[Redeemer]

None of those ninjas were also Batman. It's a subtle but important distinction.

All Batman are Ninjas, but NOT All Ninjas are Batman.
Teryy Mcginnis is not a ninja, he is not even a martial artist.
Adam West Batman was a ninja?

Right??


I am honestly surprised that no one brought up the fact Batman is an elite detective and tactitionist.

Here is my breakdown. If it was a random meeting by chance. Say Batman out on Patrol and crosses TMNT I think the turtles would win. But if this was a planned battle like Batman fight in Dark Knight returns. Batman would win.

That is my opinion.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I gues we'll just have find out soon, won't we;)
http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/images/c_fill,h_300,w_480/t_mp_quality/ms3cjmtbvkimc8h1w7yc/cowabunga-a-batman-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-crossover-is-actually-happening-515654.jpg

[Mew]

I say the Turtles pin Batman down, and then Leonardo stabs him several times in the heart and brain.

[shuriken]

^Sure
Batman would cripple all of them, he'd then beat up Splinter, Casey Jones, Angel/Nobody and Hob for good measure. Hell it took Bane exhausting the man for a month to break him. It's not even fair.

[Splinter the boss]

You don't have to recommend it, I've seem the episode. There is a line between Superhuman a Strenght and Peak Human Strenght.

I know there is a line between superhuman strength and peak human strength. However, Shredder, one of the most powerful humans in the tmnt universe, couldn't possibly knock down traag. So I say they do have superhuman strength, even though their strength might not be up there with others like superman. After all their strength are above human strength.

[Ninturtle]

I know there is a line between superhuman strength and peak human strength. However, Shredder, one of the most powerful humans in the tmnt universe, couldn't possibly knock down traag. So I say they do have superhuman strength, even though their strength might not be up there with others like superman. After all their strength are above human strength.

How do you know that? He could knock down Leather Head and Throw Rocksteady so he's pretty strong. The series never showed the turtles had super strength just good ninja skills.

[Slade]

How would you rate Batman against the Shredder?


Which one????

I don't DISLIKE Bats, I just think too many people "pump him up" power-wise far too often. Unlike Supes, he's NOT some all-powerful, invincible being. He's HUMAN. with the same limitations and weaknesses as ANY human. the turtles are mutants, which implies certain advantages over a human, no matter HOW well trained and fit. And even in smarts, they have at LEAST his equal among them, if not his better.

I don't dislike him either and I also can't stand the Batgod perception people have. But Bats doesn't have the same limitations as ANY human. Not everyone is as trained as he is. He'd take the turtles. By himself. Shredder's done it on a few occasions and he isn't as skilled as Bruce.

[Splinter the boss]

How do you know that? He could knock down Leather Head and Throw Rocksteady so he's pretty strong. The series never showed the turtles had super strength just good ninja skills.

Last time I checked, neither Rocksteady or Leatherhead is made of solid rock and lava.

[Leo656]

The only way the Turtles (OR TMNT + Splinter) could win is if Peter Laird wrote it. Any other professional comic writer would have a lot more sense.

Batman wins. There's hundreds of examples that can prove it. It'd be a fun fight. But there's absolutely nothing they could do that he wouldn't have already seen and had a defense for. Donnie's probably smarter, and Leo may be AS good a strategist, but those are literally the only two "advantages" the Turtles have. Mikey wouldn't take the fight seriously until it was too late, and Raphael would charge in headfirst and get handed his ass right away, so those two are more of a liability than anything. Donnie doesn't have the killer instinct, and one-on-one, Leo can't win that fight.

In brief: Raph would charge in blind before the others - not sure where Batman even was, covered by shadows and his cape - and get thrown head-first into concrete, knocked out cold - Batman always takes the largest and/or most bloodthirsty ones out right away. 3 on 1, Batman holds them off and notices that Mikey is the "weak link" by how he's always cracking jokes, tricks him into doing something dumb, and incapacitates him. 2 on 1, Batman throws Donnie off-guard by fighting dirty, using his wrist blades to snap his staff and then doing something cheap but effective, like a choke hold or a bone-breaking strike. 1 on 1, Leo vs Batman would be the most entertaining part of the whole thing, but in the end, Batman's experience and the ability to be more vicious and unpredictable would make all the difference. We've seen him do anything to win, from breaking bones to dislocating extremities, to crippling guys from the waist down, anything short of kill. We've rarely, if ever, seen the Turtles be willing to be as vicious as Batman is all the F'n time by default.

"Turtles fight with Honor." Batman fights to win. Batman wins. There'd obviously be a lot more details to the fight but that's more or less the broad strokes of how it would go.

[Commenter 42]

I say the Turtles pin Batman down, and then Leonardo stabs him several times in the heart and brain.

The funniest answer so far.

I think it fully depends on which Batman, and which Turtles.
Batman definitely has the odds in his favor.

[Andrew NDB]

How would you rate Batman against the Shredder?

C'mon. Batman. Even Mirage Shredder who from age 8 or whatever was raised and forced himself to master ninjitsu to one day avenge Nagi... he had like one, two, three masters ever, tops. Batman traveled the globe learning from everybody to make his whole city straight, multiple martial arts and pretty much everything, and didn't settle until he was a master of it all. That's his thing.

Donnie's probably smarter

Whatever Donnie has read in sewer books or the internet, Batman has taken courses in paid by his multi-billion dollar trust fund and probably even spoken in college classes. No, sorry, can't give even that one. You're talking about the guy who built Brother Eye.

The one edge the (Mirage) Turtles have is that they're willing to kill and Batman is not. But they'd never even get the chance to do anything with that edge.

[Redeemer]

C'mon. Batman. Even Mirage Shredder who from age 8 or whatever was raised and forced himself to master ninjitsu to one day avenge Nagi... he had like one, two, three masters ever, tops. Batman traveled the globe learning from everybody to make his whole city straight, multiple martial arts and pretty much everything, and didn't settle until he was a master of it all. That's his thing.



Whatever Donnie has read in sewer books or the internet, Batman has taken courses in paid by his multi-billion dollar trust fund and probably even spoken in college classes. No, sorry, can't give even that one. You're talking about the guy who built Brother Eye.

The one edge the (Mirage) Turtles have is that they're willing to kill and Batman is not. But they'd never even get the chance to do anything with that edge.

Pretty sure Batman dropped out of college :lol:

[LeotheLateBloomer]

The less said about THAT iteration, the better. Where's a puking Turtle emoticon when I need one?

If only you knew what that iteration did for the Batman franchise. *sigh*

1 on 1, Leo vs Batman would be the most entertaining part of the whole thing, but in the end, Batman's experience and the ability to be more vicious and unpredictable would make all the difference. We've seen him do anything to win, from breaking bones to dislocating extremities, to crippling guys from the waist down, anything short of kill. We've rarely, if ever, seen the Turtles be willing to be as vicious as Batman is all the F'n time by default.

It's possible if Leo plays his cards right. Don't forget that he is also a strategist and quickly learns to customize to his opponent's strategy. He did take down the Ultimate Ninja.

[Candy Kappa]

Whatever Donnie has read in sewer books or the internet, Batman has taken courses in paid by his multi-billion dollar trust fund and probably even spoken in college classes. No, sorry, can't give even that one. You're talking about the guy who built Brother Eye.

The one edge the (Mirage) Turtles have is that they're willing to kill and Batman is not. But they'd never even get the chance to do anything with that edge.


This. Donnie might be pretty smart, Even genius intellect since in several incarnations he've built or helped making some snazzy gadgets and vehicles. But that's it, he's in no way near what Batman have done with the resources a Wayne can use.

Bruce Wayne is a Polymath:
He has studied Biology, Technology, Mathematics, Physics, Mythology, Geography and History.

Gained degrees in Criminal Science, Forensic Sciences, Computer Sciences, Chemistry and Engineering by the time he was 21.

He has mastered Diverse Environmental Training, Security Systems, and illusion/sleight of hand by the time he was 23.

He gained even more degrees in Biology, Physics, Advanced Chemistry, and Technology by the time he was 25.

He had learned Forensic Sciences, Medical Sciences, Expanded Computer and Engineering Sciences, and Expanded Device Pool use of personal powered armor and system, database creation on underworld crime bosses, rogue's gallery foes and other supervillains; improved material sciences for body armor and micro-machinery by the time he was 26.

Has also learned Advanced New Development in Forensic and Medical Sciences.

And for combat, he's the best escapist artist second only to Mister Miracle, and have the pinnacle of Peak Human Condition, as he regularly lifts 1000 lbs, can catch Green Arrow's arrows mid-flight, dodge point blank gunfire, and are on the level with a Olympic Gold Winner gymnastic.

He also have Photographic Memory and easily adapts his fighting style to accommodate his opponent. And almost on par with Green Arrow as a marksman.

But, sure in a fight anything can happen. But the upper hand is in Batman's corner, big time.

[Yabuturtle]

It's kinda tough to decide. The turtles struggle enough with Shredder who's considered to be an amazing a martial artists, but Batman is considered to be one of the best martial artists plus had numerous gadgets. I don't think the Turtles would be push overs to Batman as they are considered to be amazing, too, but I'd say Batman wins this due to his experience, cunning, intellect, gadgets and so forth. If Splinter joined in he might give Batman some more trouble but if it's just those 4 turtles I'd say Batman wins. Now just because Batman defeated many ninjas before doesn't mean this would be a cake walk to him here. It's quality, not quantity, as some versions of the Turtles are considered to be world's above many martial artists. Batman has taken down super powered beings, however that also doesn't mean he'd defeat any non powered superhuman. He can take down Clayface, but had a very difficult time against Ra's al Ghul. Beating numerous opponents or super powered beings, doesn't mean you can take down anyone. Really if one wishes to be technical, almost all fights can go either way, depending on what they use, their environment, if one can exploit each others weaknesses, ect. so I can see Batman losing but also winning depending on the situation. Unless the Turtles were going to fight against a godlike entity like Galactus or something, they'd totally lose, unless they had something like the Infinity Gauntlet or something like that.

But I would also like it if they teamed up and take down some villains. :)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

They've rarely been displayed having Superhuman Strenght, Peak Human Strenght is more accurate. And it's been shown that besides a certain movie, the shell don't give that much protection, it's not Kevlar, it's just bones and scutes, and as an add on. turtles do have nerves in the shell and do feel through it, like pain for example.

There are three conditions Batman will win on.

1. Writers hard-on for Batman: Batman in modern comics will always win cause current writers don't know any better.

2. Ninjas Rule no 3. Ninjas in numbers are useless and canon fodder, Batman being a lone Ninja will automatically win cause his power level exceeds the number of Ninjas he'll be fighting. Basic Ninjas fiction logic.

3. Batman is simply more skilled, he knows more martial arts, and is highly skilled in the arts of stealth and misdirection, something the TMNT often usually lack. The Turtles are good, but not that good. Plus, Batman got fancier toys that wasn't crudely fashioned in a sewer.

By all means, it would have been a spectacular fight, but Batman goes on top, with no casualties because Batman is a professional Superhero.


No superhuman strength? Let's review here- OT, they demonstrated on SEVERAL occasions that they were stronger than ANY human- knocking over brick walls onto Foot-bots, Mikey picking up a huge chunk of CONCRETE and swinging it like a bola at Krang in that military walker he was in, throwing, slamming and otherwise using oil drums, big tires, and other VERY HEAVY objects like they were nothing, pushing the future turtle van UP STAIRS! And the list goes on. Nick- Traag, as previously noted, pushing the TRAIN CAR to the lair to use as a vehicle (sorry, four NORMAL HUMANS can't do that, no matter how strong!) and more.

Their shells have been demonstrated to take FAR more abuse than any human could withstand, both in the movies (remember when Norinaga hit Leo with the sword? Barely any damage, much LESS serious harm!) and in the cartoons and even comics (Donnie's recent attack aside). They also have abilities Bats doesn't, such as pulling their heads in during a fight (Mikey and Leo both did this in the original films, and they've all done it in the comics and cartoons). Good luck with getting in a head-shot, Bruce! Or doing much more than annoying them when trying to attack from behind.

Sure, why not? Because Batman apparently can't be beat by ANYONE. GIVE. ME. A. BREAK. He's NOT invincible and all-knowing.


I know there is a line between superhuman strength and peak human strength. However, Shredder, one of the most powerful humans in the tmnt universe, couldn't possibly knock down traag. So I say they do have superhuman strength, even though their strength might not be up there with others like superman. After all their strength are above human strength.


Exactly. They are probably on par with Wolvie or Beast, who both are a tier above human peack-level, but are still well below guys like Spidey, Thor, Hulk, and the like. Physically, Bats is a wimp compared to that. No offense to Batman fans, it's just pure physical prowess comparison.


Which one????

I don't dislike him either and I also can't stand the Batgod perception people have. But Bats doesn't have the same limitations as ANY human. Not everyone is as trained as he is. He'd take the turtles. By himself. Shredder's done it on a few occasions and he isn't as skilled as Bruce.


By limitations, I was talking about the PEAK of human ability- Bats may have that, but they can still go him one better in that department.


This. Donnie might be pretty smart, Even genius intellect since in several incarnations he've built or helped making some snazzy gadgets and vehicles. But that's it, he's in no way near what Batman have done with the resources a Wayne can use.

Bruce Wayne is a Polymath:
He has studied Biology, Technology, Mathematics, Physics, Mythology, Geography and History.

Gained degrees in Criminal Science, Forensic Sciences, Computer Sciences, Chemistry and Engineering by the time he was 21.

He has mastered Diverse Environmental Training, Security Systems, and illusion/sleight of hand by the time he was 23.

He gained even more degrees in Biology, Physics, Advanced Chemistry, and Technology by the time he was 25.

He had learned Forensic Sciences, Medical Sciences, Expanded Computer and Engineering Sciences, and Expanded Device Pool use of personal powered armor and system, database creation on underworld crime bosses, rogue's gallery foes and other supervillains; improved material sciences for body armor and micro-machinery by the time he was 26.

Has also learned Advanced New Development in Forensic and Medical Sciences.

And for combat, he's the best escapist artist second only to Mister Miracle, and have the pinnacle of Peak Human Condition, as he regularly lifts 1000 lbs, can catch Green Arrow's arrows mid-flight, dodge point blank gunfire, and are on the level with a Olympic Gold Winner gymnastic.

He also have Photographic Memory and easily adapts his fighting style to accommodate his opponent. And almost on par with Green Arrow as a marksman.

But, sure in a fight anything can happen. But the upper hand is in Batman's corner, big time.


Here's the thing, according to the skills they are given in the TMNT RPG book (and this is mostly canon, IIRC), Donnie has most of those same knowledge and skills, as well. Leo and Mikey, have several of them too, to a lesser degree, with a little overlap, but all with their own specialties. Bats has tried to specialize in TOO MANY areas, and there only being 24 hours in a day (and he has to eat, sleep and bathe/sh*t sometime) he just CANNOT do ALL that and not end up burning himself out physically (and probably mentally, too). He's neither OLD enough to do that, nor did he start training from "birth" or when he started walking/talking like they did. (Even assuming he's in his thirties, which is also when the brain's learning capacity begins to seriously slow and physical improvement begins to decline....) Essentially, he might have more fields of expertise than Donnie- but due to the very nature of such study- which is VERY time consuming even WITH photographic or eidactic memory (something people tend to forget) he would never be able to master something as well as someone who has chosen to specialize in fewer fields and thus has more time to spend learning them. Also, we've seen evidence that Donnie (and Mikey, apparently, by how easily he picks up certain skills) is capable of learning new things almost effortlessly, which indicates a possible photographic memory as well. (It's never been specifically stated, but he must be able to if he can remember some obscure fact he read years ago and apply it during a battle!)

[SixthTurtle]

I think that it's pretty silly to say that Batman wins because he can beat generic ninjas. So can the turtles. That's like saying they can beat Batman because they've beaten villains who use technology.

Also can we not forget that sometimes the Batman's enemies get the upper hand on him and most of them are human or slightly mutated. Joker is human, Catwoman is human, Two-Face is human, Riddler is human, Mad Hater is human, Scarecrow is human... need I go on?

[PangolinFeets]

Skill-wise, the fight is fairly even, I think. Four highly-trained ninjas over one master fighter. But Batman is cunning and the turtles don't play dirty. Batman would recognize that they care more about each others' lives than taking him out. He'd just take one hostage and threaten to kill them until they surrender.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No, sorry, but even Bats wouldn't play THAT dirty. And depending on the version of turtles, they might be willing to play that game too. Ninjas DO play dirty, almost by definition. Honorable they might be, but NOT stupid or foolishly "goody-two-shoes", any more than Daredevil is. In fact, if he's really as observant as he's made out to be, he's recognize their loyalty to and concern for each other as something that marks them as potential allies rather than enemies! I think that might make him LESS inclined to fight, actually. And he doesn't have their well-honed teamwork on his side, either.

I just get so tired of seeing Bats being so overrated by virtually everyone, even non-fans. It's like those Hulk vs. (fill in the blank) threads they used to have at Marvel. Hulk fans always insisted that he'd beat EVERYONE, even though there was evidence to the contrary. (Like Spidey already knowing exactly how to beat him, or others demonstrating the ability to outlast or outwit him into changing back.)

[Leo656]

C'mon. Batman. Even Mirage Shredder who from age 8 or whatever was raised and forced himself to master ninjitsu to one day avenge Nagi... he had like one, two, three masters ever, tops. Batman traveled the globe learning from everybody to make his whole city straight, multiple martial arts and pretty much everything, and didn't settle until he was a master of it all. That's his thing.



Whatever Donnie has read in sewer books or the internet, Batman has taken courses in paid by his multi-billion dollar trust fund and probably even spoken in college classes. No, sorry, can't give even that one. You're talking about the guy who built Brother Eye.

The one edge the (Mirage) Turtles have is that they're willing to kill and Batman is not. But they'd never even get the chance to do anything with that edge.

You're right. I withdraw that statement. When I made it, I had Fred Wolf "Can somehow build anything out of anything, even garbage"" hyper-intelligent Donnie in my mind for some reason, but f*** that guy. You're right, it's nonsense. Batman easily. I apologize sincerely, that was one of the dumbest mistakes I've made in like ever.
----------

Here's the thing guys: Batman's beaten up the League of Shadows/Assassins, which in DC canon are THE most dangerous guys on Earth. I'm not sure where the Foot ranks on their Earth, but I've never heard them referred to as THE guys. AMONG the best, maybe. But I don't think either Saki or Yoshi were ever THE best in the world, thus, none of their pupils likely would be, either. Sp, sure, the Turtles can handle the Foot clan, but Batman's taken on the League, ten at a time, by himself, and won. I don't care how over-powered some writers make him; if we're going by canon, canon says Batman Wins. And if we're going by anything other than canon, then it's pointless, just Dueling Fanfic Scenarios.

Batman has the edge in every single category. He's probably lighter and absolutely more agile, he's possibly stronger, he's definitely more experienced and infinitely more brutal. I don't care about shells or plastrons; Batman breaks bones, he dislocates extremities, he cracks skulls open, and he does it to guys a lot less dangerous to him than the Turtles would be, half the time for fun. The Turtles almost always go into every fight already expecting to win, and half the times that gets them their ass handed back. In Every Canon. Batman, meanwhile, takes everything seriously, and the second he thought the guys might actually be a threat, he'd turn it up to 11 and finish the fight before they knew what was happening.

The Turtles fight like it's half a game. Batman fights because it's War. Batman wins.

[Andrew NDB]

Pretty sure Batman dropped out of college :lol:

Nope. He even went to the CIA for a minute until he decided he wasn't making a big enough difference (Shadow of the Bat #0 I believe, could be wrong).

[Leo656]

No, sorry, but even Bats wouldn't play THAT dirty.

How naive. The guy routinely throws unarmed guys face-first through plate glass windows, or headfirst into brick walls, and half the time they've barely even done anything. Batman needs no reason to be a colossal douche about beating people up. That's just his Default.

It has nothing to do with him being written as "over-powered" AT ALL. The character's canon has simply shown that he's faced and beaten far greater odds than anything the TMNT can throw at him. And if we're not going to go by canon then the entire debate is totally pointless.

Believe me, I get it. When I was 5, after Hulk Hogan slammed Andre the Giant I was convinced he could have beaten up Bruce Lee. We all get super-into stuff and say silly things that don't make any sense. But the Ninja Turtles can't beat up Batman, I'm sorry. Nor can Batman beat up Superman. People get silly about all kinds of stuff. It happens. :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

How naive. The guy routinely throws unarmed guys face-first through plate glass windows, or headfirst into brick walls, and half the time they've barely even done anything. Batman needs no reason to be a colossal douche about beating people up. That's just his Default.

It has nothing to do with him being written as "over-powered" AT ALL. The character's canon has simply shown that he's faced and beaten far greater odds than anything the TMNT can throw at him. And if we're not going to go by canon then the entire debate is totally pointless.

Believe me, I get it. When I was 5, after Hulk Hogan slammed Andre the Giant I was convinced he could have beaten up Bruce Lee. We all get super-into stuff and say silly things that don't make any sense. But the Ninja Turtles can't beat up Batman, I'm sorry. Nor can Batman beat up Superman. People get silly about all kinds of stuff. It happens. :lol:


I'm not even saying they'd "beat him up" because honestly, I don't think they'd ever go that route, but to be honest, while I'm aware that Bats has killed on occasion, I doubt he'd consider them as dangerous enemies. More likely he'd go into it thinking they are "bad guys", but soon realize he had them pegged wrong, and the fight would end. I don't think they's kill him or even beat the living sh*t out of him, just that he wouldn't "win". there's a difference.

And I'd like to point out Splinter's words in the 90 movie about Yoshi being "one of Japan's finest shadow warriors. His only rival was a man named Oroku Saki". So yes, in their world(s), the Foot ARE the "best" in the world- they were trained by the man who killed Yoshi who was clearly one of the two best. And Splinter being his "student" (albeit that he probably didn't even realize he was teaching the rat, or if Splinter IS Yoshi, then it's even more evident he's the "best") makes them more obviously the "best" in their world. And again, there's the Battle Nexus and all those space stories where they were up against aliens from all across the multiverse!

Another thing I'd like to point out is the age factor. What age of the turtles are we talking about? Mirage later volumes in their thirties, or the early history teen years? Because that would certainly make a difference in both training and experience level. Meanwhile, Bats would have aged and would probably be old enough that he's lose much of his supposed "edge" over them. And even the fact of them being obviously teenagers would probably tip him off that they aren't actually even a threat. Why does this not get taken into account?

[PangolinFeets]

No, sorry, but even Bats wouldn't play THAT dirty. And depending on the version of turtles, they might be willing to play that game too. Ninjas DO play dirty, almost by definition. Honorable they might be, but NOT stupid or foolishly "goody-two-shoes", any more than Daredevil is. In fact, if he's really as observant as he's made out to be, he's recognize their loyalty to and concern for each other as something that marks them as potential allies rather than enemies! I think that might make him LESS inclined to fight, actually. And he doesn't have their well-honed teamwork on his side, either.

I just get so tired of seeing Bats being so overrated by virtually everyone, even non-fans. It's like those Hulk vs. (fill in the blank) threads they used to have at Marvel. Hulk fans always insisted that he'd beat EVERYONE, even though there was evidence to the contrary. (Like Spidey already knowing exactly how to beat him, or others demonstrating the ability to outlast or outwit him into changing back.)

Ok, but we're going into this saying there's gonna be a fight and who would win. Obviously, if they didn't have to fight, being intelligent on both sides, they would probably drop whatever issue there was and work together.

And yes, Bats does play that dirty. I mean, his contingency plans for the Justice League are pretty twisted. He knows he's not the most powerful, so he has really dark and manipulative ways to win fights he knows he couldn't win head-on.

[Leo656]

I discount the Battle Nexus because anyone objective knows both Batman and Brock Lesnar would have been involved if not for licensing issues. :lol: It was exclusionary by design. Now, if it came down to Batman vs. Brock Lesnar... well, now you've got yourself something people would pay to see. :tgrin:

I wasn't talking about Batman even looking to use lethal force either, I was simply saying, he always goes into every fight taking things a lot more seriously then the Turtles do. More than likely, they'd go into the fight taking it lightly because they have the numbers. They make that mistake A LOT. Batman is THE BEST, at taking advantage of that specific mistake. It's kind of his entire strategy - "Take out large groups of skilled opponents by lulling them into a false sense of security based on having more people on their side, then jump in and start snapping stuff." By the time the guys started taking it seriously, at least one of them would already be on the ground.

If it came down to it, if it was about to go "too far", Batman would be quicker to do permanent damage. He has a killer instinct that even Raphael doesn't have. Like PF said, if we're looking at it as a fight with a winner, not as "Super-Hero Team-Up Act 2 Misunderstanding", then Batman would go for the throat first.

If it's "Teen Turtles", Batman still breaks their kneecaps if he has to. Batman has fewer f*cks than Honey Badger. If he thinks you're dangerous, he hits you really goddamn hard. He dresses teenage orphans up like birds and throws them at guys with guns; Batman will gladly throw a teenager with a fancy broomstick into a brick wall. And if it's Old Batman vs. Experienced Turtles, by then Batman's cheating by wearing armor and using tons of asphyxiating/blinding chemicals and rubber bullets and sh*t. That's even less fair.

Batman's An Asshole, and Batman Always Cheats. That's why he always wins.

Don't get me wrong, it's a fight I'd like to see. I actually started writing something like it, once, but then I got distracted and never finished it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I wasn't saying there wouldn't BE a fight; if Leo got anything right, it was Raph rushing in head-first, and the others being drawn in because of that, if nothing else. Most likely, the fight would end in a draw once both sides realized they were on the "same side" as it were. I didn't say there wouldn't BE a fight, just that Bats probably wouldn't really WIN it. Either he'd realize he's fighting a bunch of kids who got in over their heads (in a situation they were in by mischance), or they'd incapacitate him long enough to talk things out. That's how I see it going. No "he'd kill/maim/etc. them" or even "they'd beat him to a pulp". Just a "hey, why the heck were we fighting, again?" situation, where everyone stops and apologizes or makes whatever passes for an apology with them as individuals.

Also, if you're referring to his contingencies against Supes and such, kryptonite ist he obvious solution to that problem, and even I can figure THAT one out, without even HALF the "smarts" he's supposed to have! It's not even that "twisted", it's common sense. Though I think having it ON him at any given time while working with the Man of Steel is a bit douchy, to be sure. But Bats has never been much of a team player, anyway. It's just his natural lone-wolf attitude and tendency to see EVERYONE as a potential threat.

[Leo656]

People easily forget that for anyone to use Kryptonite against Superman, even Batman, he has to not know they have it. It's pretty useless against him once the secret's out. He has to be within about 10 feet of it to really be affected by it in the first place, and he has a billion ways to incapacitate someone from that far away.

Kryptonite's the last gasp argument of a Batman fan who doesn't want to admit that their Deity is just a guy with a S.W.A.T. belt, who'd be totally impotent against a guy who could flick a grain of sand into your face at 500mph.

[PangolinFeets]

I wasn't saying there wouldn't BE a fight; if Leo got anything right, it was Raph rushing in head-first, and the others being drawn in because of that, if nothing else. Most likely, the fight would end in a draw once both sides realized they were on the "same side" as it were. I didn't say there wouldn't BE a fight, just that Bats probably wouldn't really WIN it. Either he'd realize he's fighting a bunch of kids who got in over their heads (in a situation they were in by mischance), or they'd incapacitate him long enough to talk things out. That's how I see it going. No "he'd kill/maim/etc. them" or even "they'd beat him to a pulp". Just a "hey, why the heck were we fighting, again?" situation, where everyone stops and apologizes or makes whatever passes for an apology with them as individuals.

Also, if you're referring to his contingencies against Supes and such, kryptonite ist he obvious solution to that problem, and even I can figure THAT one out, without even HALF the "smarts" he's supposed to have! It's not even that "twisted", it's common sense. Though I think having it ON him at any given time while working with the Man of Steel is a bit douchy, to be sure. But Bats has never been much of a team player, anyway. It's just his natural lone-wolf attitude and tendency to see EVERYONE as a potential threat.

...Or making the Green Lantern think his wife was dead or forcing Diana to fight until she dies of exhaustion or igniting Martian Manhunter? Just a bit twisted. It's more than just water+fire=flame out. There's cold and calculated psychology put into taking out opponents he knows he's not strong enough to beat. It's some Ozymandias-level ****.
It's not really about just IQ. He's good at reading people and a master manipulator. Like when he was captured by the Legion of Doom and managed to talk his way into making half the team at each other's throats, seducing Cheetah and straight up telling Gorilla Grod he's Bruce Wayne and paying him a random.

I'm not even a Batman fan. I'm just going on the bits I know about him from random comics, shows and movies. I LOVE the ninja turtles. I just honestly don't see them crossing enough lines to win this. And for the sake of the argument, let's just say that one side needs to surrender and one needs to win.

[Leo656]

And for the sake of the argument, let's just say that one side needs to surrender and one needs to win.

Yeah, I'm definitely not interested in even entertaining the typical "We Fight, Then We Team Up" scenario. They all end the same, so it's double pointless. "I hit you, you hit me, then You and Me fight Him." Ehhhhh. I'm only gonna play this game if one side wins.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, then. I've seen a few instances where at least ONE turtle was just as twisted and played just as dirty! And if he ever really let that side loose.... *shudders*

[Leo656]

Raph's "Rage Mode" is just a front to overcompensate for what an insecure little baby he is inside. He knows he'll never be as smart as Donnie, as funny or as carefree as Mikey, or as good a leader as Leo. And it kills him inside, because he's jealous of all of them. So he's Jan Brady, forever being a dick to everyone in a desperate bid for some kind of attention for himself. The "Tough, angry, and oh-so-dangerous" pose is just the little niche he carved for himself. It's a front. He's a marshmallow.

There, I done said it. "The Angry One" is a big pussycat (or at least HALF of that :tgrin:). Come at me, bro!

(Dead serious, though. We've never seen a decent in-canon explanation for why Raph's so pissy, so until we get a better one I'm doing the math and saying That's It Right There.)

[Jester]

Raph's "Rage Mode" is just a front to overcompensate for what an insecure little baby he is inside. He knows he'll never be as smart as Donnie, as funny or as carefree as Mikey, or as good a leader as Leo. And it kills him inside, because he's jealous of all of them. So he's Jan Brady, forever being a dick to everyone in a desperate bid for some kind of attention for himself. The "Tough, angry, and oh-so-dangerous" pose is just the little niche he carved for himself. It's a front. He's a marshmallow.

There, I done said it. "The Angry One" is a big pussycat (or at least HALF of that :tgrin:). Come at me, bro!
This may be why I prefer FW Raph (and really like Astin's Raph....he's at least got his protective streak there.)

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Raph's "Rage Mode" is just a front to overcompensate for what an insecure little baby he is inside. He knows he'll never be as smart as Donnie, as funny or as carefree as Mikey, or as good a leader as Leo. And it kills him inside, because he's jealous of all of them. So he's Jan Brady, forever being a dick to everyone in a desperate bid for some kind of attention for himself. The "Tough, angry, and oh-so-dangerous" pose is just the little niche he carved for himself. It's a front. He's a marshmallow.

There, I done said it. "The Angry One" is a big pussycat (or at least HALF of that :tgrin:). Come at me, bro!

(Dead serious, though. We've never seen a decent in-canon explanation for why Raph's so pissy, so until we get a better one I'm doing the math and saying That's It Right There.)


Actually, I wasn't referring to Raph. There are two others who fit the bill, though, and either one is more scary than him!

[Leo656]

Ah, well, now you might be onto something.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well, ONE of the two DID sorta go "Bats" in the OT, LOL! And then there's that Pizza Face episode, too.... *creeped out*

[Commenter 42]

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, then. I've seen a few instances where at least ONE turtle was just as twisted and played just as dirty! And if he ever really let that side loose.... *shudders*

I like this idea.

I think the general opinion is that Bats would win easily. And that's just the thing, it's what everyone expects, for valid reasons.

But imagine MsMarvelDuckie's scenario...
The story would be far more interesting if the reverse happened.
Yeah, I'd love to see Batman lose to those turtles, if for no other reason than it's hard to imagine a scenario where that could plausibly happen.

And it can't be thanks to magic bullet shells or some other BS.

[Leo656]

I simply can't imagine any scenario that wouldn't feel like, "Ehhh, the writer just gave 'em that one to be nice." It wouldn't feel organic, to me; it'd feel forced.

"Unexpected?" "Interesting?" Sure. But if I've learned nothing from wrestling the last few years, it's that sometimes you just have to do what's expected if you expect anyone to buy it and be happy with it. Same basic thing; you can do whatever story you want, it's fake. But there's a huge difference between, "Well, this guy wins because it makes sense" and "That guy wins just because you didn't expect it." You absolutely CAN make the latter scenario work but 9 times outta 10 the person with the pen doesn't have a steady enough hand to pull it off. They get so hung up on, "Boy, bet ya didn't see THAT one comin'!" that it feels hollow.

There's a time to pull the swerve, and there's a time to keep it simple and not over-think things. Honestly, I think if they did a fight scene and the Turtles went over, it'd piss off a lot more people than it'd make happy. I don't think it's a believable outcome, to most people. I think it's SO unbelievable, that however "interesting" it would be to see is undone by how forced it'd come off.

I just can't see it in my head, at all, as anything other than "The writer felt bad for the Turtles and let them win," and that just tastes bad.

[Kendamu]

The IDW TMNT probably wouldn't beat comic book Batgod, but Season 1 OT TMNT could totally get the jump on BTAS Batman.

It's not that the IDW TMNT are weak. There are other versions of Batman they could take, but comic Batgod is overpowered.

1990 Movie TMNT could likely beat 1989 Batman.

2014 movie TMNT could kick the crap out of Nolanverse Batman. They're too strong and durable. Not sure about Batfleck yet. Gotta see how he does against Superman.

The 2k3 TMNT likely wouldn't stand a chance against BatB Batman. He's not Batgod, but his Silver Age perfection would make it like Splinter fighting the Turtles in the dojo.

The Mirage TMNT, assuming they're individually on par with Daredevil, could give comics Batgod a run for his money. It'd be like him fighting four comic Daredevils.

[Commenter 42]

I simply can't imagine any scenario that wouldn't feel like, "Ehhh, the writer just gave 'em that one to be nice." It wouldn't feel organic, to me; it'd feel forced.

"Unexpected?" "Interesting?" Sure. But if I've learned nothing from wrestling the last few years, it's that sometimes you just have to do what's expected if you expect anyone to buy it and be happy with it. Same basic thing; you can do whatever story you want, it's fake. But there's a huge difference between, "Well, this guy wins because it makes sense" and "That guy wins just because you didn't expect it." You absolutely CAN make the latter scenario work but 9 times outta 10 the person with the pen doesn't have a steady enough hand to pull it off. They get so hung up on, "Boy, bet ya didn't see THAT one comin'!" that it feels hollow.

There's a time to pull the swerve, and there's a time to keep it simple and not over-think things. Honestly, I think if they did a fight scene and the Turtles went over, it'd piss off a lot more people than it'd make happy. I don't think it's a believable outcome, to most people. I think it's SO unbelievable, that however "interesting" it would be to see is undone by how forced it'd come off.

I just can't see it in my head, at all, as anything other than "The writer felt bad for the Turtles and let them win," and that just tastes bad.


My first point was, it would have to be plausible. I agree, I can't picture it either, precisely because Batman is impossibly overskilled.

My second point was, I'd enjoy watching Batman get his ass kicked, because he is impossibly overskilled. It would be quite satisfying.

It's the same argument as BatsvSupes.

[Zak The Neutrino]

After reading everyone arguments I think if Bats is caught off guard he either retreats or gets beat.

There are some pretty lame villains that have torched bats. However after he retreats, recovers and comes back with a plan he wins.

I think it's funny why some are calling him batgod. This just reaffirms my hate for the DC universe. Superman and Batman are all powerful and nothing can defeat them. Just lame if you ask me.

[Candy Kappa]

I think it's funny why some are calling him batgod. This just reaffirms my hate for the DC universe. Superman and Batman are all powerful and nothing can defeat them. Just lame if you ask me.

Well, after Justice League #2...

Batman is a god, a New God

Metron have been remove from the Mobious Chair, and Batman sat on it to save the day and became the God of Knowledge. He literally is Bat-God.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Well, after Justice League #2...

Batman is a god, a New God

Metron have been remove from the Mobious Chair, and Batman sat on it to save the day and became the God of Knowledge. He literally is Bat-God.

Eh, Turtles are gearing up to kick Pantheon ass.

Bat-God ass shouldn't be any different by that point. :tlol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Eh, Turtles are gearing up to kick Pantheon ass.

Bat-God ass shouldn't be any different by that point. :tlol:


This, I should like to see, especially after how they trashed the Bull-god dude (sorry, forgot his name). With some help from the Ghostbusters, of course.

[Leo656]

Bruce Lee was a guy who existed. It's not impossible to think that a guy like Batman would be equally as skilled and twice as dangerous. He would have to be; that's his entire self-imposed job.

I mean, yeah, "Batman Wins Via Deus ex Machina" has become rather overdone in recent times, but it doesn't undermine the idea that a guy could, in theory, become as good as he's presented to be.

Nobody gets mad at Wolverine, it seems, for having the exact same "problem" as Batman: His popularity with the general audience ensures that he comes out on top of every situation, regardless of circumstance, even when it's stupidly exaggerated and unbelievable. Wolverine beat Lobo, officially... I call Horse Sh*t on that, and so does everyone with any sense, but that's the verdict. Why? Because Wolverine sells.

Biggest difference between Batman and Wolverine, of course, being that Batman doesn't suck. So yeah, show a little consistency, go cry about Wolverine. Guy's been in more movies than Batman already despite having two facial expressions and zero by way of character motivation. I hate that. :lol:

[PangolinFeets]

I like this idea.

I think the general opinion is that Bats would win easily. And that's just the thing, it's what everyone expects, for valid reasons.

But imagine MsMarvelDuckie's scenario...
The story would be far more interesting if the reverse happened.
Yeah, I'd love to see Batman lose to those turtles, if for no other reason than it's hard to imagine a scenario where that could plausibly happen.

And it can't be thanks to magic bullet shells or some other BS.

Unbeknownst to the readers, Donatello surgically implanted a gun holster into his shell as a last-ditch 'option C', if he ever needed it.

Donatello shoots Batman in the ****ing face.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Bruce Lee was a guy who existed. It's not impossible to think that a guy like Batman would be equally as skilled and twice as dangerous. He would have to be; that's his entire self-imposed job.

I mean, yeah, "Batman Wins Via Deus ex Machina" has become rather overdone in recent times, but it doesn't undermine the idea that a guy could, in theory, become as good as he's presented to be.

Nobody gets mad at Wolverine, it seems, for having the exact same "problem" as Batman: His popularity with the general audience ensures that he comes out on top of every situation, regardless of circumstance, even when it's stupidly exaggerated and unbelievable. Wolverine beat Lobo, officially... I call Horse Sh*t on that, and so does everyone with any sense, but that's the verdict. Why? Because Wolverine sells.

Biggest difference between Batman and Wolverine, of course, being that Batman doesn't suck. So yeah, show a little consistency, go cry about Wolverine. Guy's been in more movies than Batman already despite having two facial expressions and zero by way of character motivation. I hate that. :lol:

You are however missing the fact that Wolverine has super powers and Bats doesn't. He is just a rich guy with gadgets.

I don't like Iron Man either.

[Leo656]

You know who I DO like? The Amazing Slapstick. Don't even get me started, guy.

[Commenter 42]

You know who I DO like? The Amazing Slapstick. Don't even get me started, guy.

Wolverine is entertaining in small doses. Jackman Wolverine is long past it's best before date.

Every time you defend Bats:

s0iJBWfCGMc