Fantastic 4, suffering the same fate as TMNT (2014)?

[Andrew NDB]

http://www.newsarama.com/25466-toby-kebbel-talks-fantastic-four-fan-backlash-and-sequel-possibilities.html

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Josh-Trank-Responds-Fantastic-Four-Criticism-75827.html

So basically... they had a finished cut of the movie that the director was happy with with no Victor Von Doom but rather some Victor Domashev guy that's an angry blogger/computer hacker... they saw a bunch of negative fan reaction online, went back scrapped things, reshot a bunch of stuff with just a few months to go until release.

Sounds really familiar, doesn't it? I have no how these multi-million dollar budgeted movies get out the door without a clear, unified vision.

[Amaranthus]

TMNT 2014 still made a sh*tton of money, unlike Fantastic 4 which is being bashed by everyone.
I don't understand people sometimes.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

A finished cut of the movie that completely failed to understand the basic concept of the iconic main villain, instead trying to "modernize" said villain while also barely understanding the concept of what makes the good guys a family? Relying on our past experience with the good guys to enable our perception of them as a family rather than actually demonstrate it in the actual script?

Yep. Totally familiar.

[Andrew NDB]

The difference to me, at least, is that while Josh Trank's original FF cut was still very antithetical to what the actual FF is supposed to be about, it was still probably a pretty good movie in its own right coming from a talented director.

TMNT (2014) was just gutter trash from the start, cut up into slightly less noticeable gutter trash at the cost of disjointment.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

The difference to me, at least, is that while Josh Trank's original FF cut was still very anthithetical to what the actual FF is supposed to be about, it was still probably a pretty good movie in its own right coming from a talented director.

TMNT (2014) was just gutter trash from the start, cut up into slightly less noticeable gutter trash at the cost of disjointment.

I'll give you that. BUT do we really know which party was responsible for FF's general shittiness? Trank or Fox? I mean, after all... this guy turned down doing Star Wars.

[plastroncafe]

We'll know if they studio lets him release a director's cut.

[Andrew NDB]

I'll give you that. BUT do we really know which party was responsible for FF's general shittiness? Trank or Fox? I mean, after all... this guy turned down doing Star Wars.

Most reports seem to illustrate that what Kinberg witnessed of Trank's behavior and unhappiness when Fox wanted to redirect the film, Kinberg took back to Kathleen Kennedy at Lucasfilm... and suddenly he "left" the Star Wars project. Uh-huh.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

We'll know if they studio lets him release a director's cut.

Why would the studio release a director's cut? Do we even know if enough alternate footage exists to put one together?

Also, wouldn't releasing a director's cut this early be yet another admission of "Yeah, this movie sucked. Buy this instead and we promise it'll suck less!"

Most reports seem to illustrate that what Kinberg witnessed of Trank's behavior and unhappiness when Fox wanted to redirect the film, Kinberg took back to Kathleen Kennedy at Lucasfilm... and suddenly he "left" the Star Wars project. Uh-huh.

Very true. Which makes me doubt Trank's original version would've been any good.

[Andrew NDB]

Very true. Which makes me doubt Trank's original version would've been any good.

Not necessarily. From conception to actual direction and on a visual level, Trank seems to be like the real deal. And there are plenty of giant blockbusters that are considered classics that had very troubled productions and actors complaining of a big meany director... yet still turned out great.

This FF, it seems like the studio gave Trank full reign to do a ballsy reimagining of the Fantastic Four... but at some point realized that that's not what anybody wanted, and is a weird thing to do at a time when comic book movies done properly and faithfully is what's making bank.

[plastroncafe]

Why would the studio release a director's cut? Do we even know if enough alternate footage exists to put one together?

Also, wouldn't releasing a director's cut this early be yet another admission of "Yeah, this movie sucked. Buy this instead and we promise it'll suck less!"

I was working with the premise that Andrew gave us in the opening post of this thread; ie: there was a finished cut that had to be tweaked due to poor testing.

And who said anything about this early? I just meant eventually.

Movies made by committee are bad movies. Full stop. End of story.

[The Turtle Terminator]

I thought the same (about the films fate). Also the films production was hated by fans for the villans

Eric Sacks as Shredder-> Victor Domoshev as Doctor Doom

And reshoots. With terrible editing cuts

[Vicky82]

TMNT was a lot better than Fantastic 4, it had a lot more action.

I can't imagine Fantastic 4 doing more than TMNT did last year. I bet it won't go over $150M in the US box office yearly gross and probably won't go over $20M in the UK as there was only 10 of watching the movie and it's school holidays too.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I was working with the premise that Andrew gave us in the opening post of this thread; ie: there was a finished cut that had to be tweaked due to poor testing.

And who said anything about this early? I just meant eventually.

My bad, I misunderstood your statement.

Not necessarily. From conception to actual direction and on a visual level, Trank seems to be like the real deal. And there are plenty of giant blockbusters that are considered classics that had very troubled productions and actors complaining of a big meany director... yet still turned out great.

This FF, it seems like the studio gave Trank full reign to do a ballsy reimagining of the Fantastic Four... but at some point realized that that's not what anybody wanted, and is a weird thing to do at a time when comic book movies done properly and faithfully is what's making bank.

True. Agree on both points. It's too bad... based on just the trailers, I was really interested in Fant4stic. But after hearing about all of the film's problems, plus that TERRIBLE reimaging of Doom... cha-ching! I just saved $10 on a movie ticket. :tlol:

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Movies made by committee are bad movies.

This is also how Amazing Spider-Man 2 was made: by a group of people being totally incommunicative with each other. And of course we all know how that ended up for Sony...

Studios just don't know what's good for them sometimes.

[Andrew NDB]

Movies made by committee are bad movies.

*cough* TMNT (2014) *cough*

[neatoman]

Is it sad that the 2014 TMNT movie has a similar behind the scenes problems as a movie created solely to make sure a contract won't expire? There's no time limit on how far apart Paramount can make TMNT movies seeing how they're part of the Viacom conglomerate, if that movie had been a bomb there would have been no contractual problems for them to deal with, they could have just sat on the rights to make a TMNT movie until there was a compelling reason to do so again. This on the other hand was a slapped together reboot of a film series that already sucked hard and made no money, just to prevent a stupid contract from expiring.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

*cough* TMNT (2014) *cough*

Death by committee? Nah, 2014 TMNT was death by money-grubbing arsehole.

[IndigoErth]

So basically... they had a finished cut of the movie that the director was happy with with no Victor Von Doom but rather some Victor Domashev guy that's an angry blogger/computer hacker...
http://i.imgur.com/q5tmtch.jpg

I don't really know squat about Fantastic 4 to be honest, but even then that premise is just...

Did...did... these people go to school with the Turtle's people? Did stupid ideas get an A+ in screen writing class?

Question is though, will they find an old video game strategy guide book and learn powers from it? Unless they do that, then Bay Turtles is still the master at this.

[Andrew NDB]

Death by committee? Nah, 2014 TMNT was death by money-grubbing arsehole.

What's the difference, really? And TMNT hardly had a singular push from anywhere... Playmates, the financiers, the focus groups, you name it. Bay was just a hired hand, even if his fingerprints are over much of the action and design.

[IndigoErth]

Bay was just a hired hand, even if his fingerprints are over much of the action and design.
Kinda like the guy who supposedly is just there to cut your lawn getting to tell you what furniture and paint color to buy for your living room.

[TigerClaw]

Josh Trank seems better off doing his own thing, rather then taking on a existing property.

Fox hired him cause they liked Chronicle, and though he be a good director for Fantastic Four.

Just cause the director did one good thing, doesn't mean they are good at taking a major property like this.

No studio will ever want to hire him for there movies, He's better off doing indie movies since he has more creative control over it.

[Commenter 42]

This also happened to Green Lantern, the Robocop reboot, and Noah, to name just a few.

And why is Trank supposed to be some sort of genius? The guy made one meh found footage film. Chronicle isn't exactly a classic. It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't good. He also imagined Doom as blogger.

It's interesting that for Fant4stic (https://youtu.be/Wo5NETEV0S0), it's outrageous that the film sucks, but for TMNT, it's apparently business as usual.

0XM54YuQsz8

I don't understand. Every Fantastic 4 film has sucked. ALL of them were horrible, and terrible and pointless and idiotic. TMNT at least had Steve Barron, that while not high art, is a legitimately decent film.

So this is why 2014 turned out the way it did. No one thinks TMNT can be any good, much less cares to see it done well.

[Andrew NDB]

Kinda like the guy who supposedly is just there to cut your lawn getting to tell you what furniture and paint color to buy for your living room.

Well, it's kind of like this. Let's imagine you're a Viacom/Paramount executive and you just spent millions of dollars to acquire the TMNT property. You want to do a big tentpole movie. You grab a director, Jonathan Liebesman, you shop it around. The financiers go, "Who? Ehh... we'll give you 50 million." Well, that won't do. So they bring in Michael Bay and go, "Remember him? The guy that made Transformers a multi-billion dollar property? Now what?" "WE'LL GIVE YOU 200 MILLION TO MAKE IT!!!"

And it just goes from there. With Bay in the background piping up with bulls*** note from the peanut gallery, not really wholly invested in anything, working in tandem with a moderately talented C-list director who doesn't know anything about the TMNT beyond their caricature traits. Mix in sticky notes from Playmates and the other financiers, reshoots when the studio gets nervous, and you have the recipe for the ultimate jambalaya of Suck.

Josh Trank seems better off doing his own thing, rather then taking on a existing property.

Fox hired him cause they liked Chronicle, and though he be a good director for Fantastic Four.

Just cause the director did one good thing, doesn't mean they are good at taking a major property like this.

No studio will ever want to hire him for there movies, He's better off doing indie movies since he has more creative control over it.

There's no reason to think he wouldn't be a good director for Fantastic Four. He made the movie he wanted to make, that he clearly pitched them on. If the studio wanted something else they should have made it clear to him from the start, not bait-and-switch him after he's done and warp it into something else. The only bad guys here are the studio.

But yeah, he's probably better off and will be happier doing his own thing. Particularly after his experience on this.


I don't understand. Every Fantastic 4 film has sucked. ALL of them were horrible, and terrible and pointless and idiotic.

I don't dislike the first one much at all, I rather dug it. It was fun. I didn't even mind Doom in that. The 2nd one was completely unwatchable and actually made me angry. And I'm not even a Fantastic Four fan.

[Commenter 42]

I don't dislike the first one much. I didn't even mind Doom in that. The 2nd one was completely unwatchable and actually made me angry. And I'm not even a Fantastic Four fan.

Try watching it again. It's terrible. It's Batman and Robin level bad. I'm not a fan of FF either, to be honest, I just don't care, but still the movie sucked.

[Andrew NDB]

Try watching it again. It's terrible. It's Batman and Robin level bad.

Hm... I may have to. I'm certain I was drinking when I was watching it, but that actually tends to make me a harsher critic.

I definitely don't think it was Batman & Robin-level bad. Movies like Batman & Robin and Resident Evil 2 are a special part of Hell.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Death by committee? Nah, 2014 TMNT was death by money-grubbing arsehole.

Death by Bay?

[Commenter 42]

Hm... I may have to. I'm certain I was drinking when I was watching it, but that actually tends to make me a harsher critic.

I definitely don't think it was Batman & Robin-level bad. Movies like Batman & Robin and Resident Evil 2 are a special part of Hell.

LOL!!!

Yep... there you go. :lol:

To be clear, for me, the bar for a good film is something like Fight Club, or The Social Network. If I can go back and watch it again and still get jazzed, or still laugh etc. I'm a picky f*cker.

I don't get off on campy, schlocky stuff. I've noticed Some folks here are into low budget b-movies, stuff from the Asylum or Roger Corman. That's nice and all, but I can't stand that sh1t. Just a heads up for when I caterwaul 'bout things, that's where I'm coming from.

[plastroncafe]

I don't dislike the first one much at all, I rather dug it. It was fun. I didn't even mind Doom in that. The 2nd one was completely unwatchable and actually made me angry. And I'm not even a Fantastic Four fan.

I have more positive things to say about the first FF movie, than I do about the Bay Turtles one.

[beeshaw]

Movies, in general, are a business. So all studios are after the all important dollar. Those putting out the money, to try to make MORE money, are going to the be the ones who ultimately make the decisions. Sometimes that decision is to put the trust into a single vision. Sometimes that decision is to turn something into a massive cluster**** in order to attempt to appeal to the masses. To, yes, try to make as much money as possible.

That's why these big movies exist. They are not 'art', nor are they normally made with much heart. Sometimes you get lucky and the money men hire someone who DOES care, and then leave him be to do his thing. More often than not there's not much as stake for those movies monetarily speaking. There are exceptions of course. Sometimes you get lucky and it all works out for the most part, even with too many cooks in the kitchen. But those are very few, and very far between. Unfortunatly, with properties such as TMNT and *insert your favorite superhero here*, they are just that. Properties. Names and likenesses owned by a giant company, trying to become gianter, with little to no attention to us, the little guys, who actually are invested emotionally in those names and likenesses. Ironically, it's us who they need the money from.

[Andrew NDB]

Unfortunatly, with properties such as TMNT and *insert your favorite superhero here*, they are just that. Properties. Names and likenesses owned by a giant company, trying to become gianter

It's like that with the TMNT... now. But it wasn't always that way. There's no longer any human heart at the center safeguarding things in any way, shape or form. I can't speak for Eastman ("it's the best movie ever, with 'The Raid' style fights!!!"), but I know Laird would have vetoed any incarnation of TMNT (2014) we know of at the front door until they came at him correct with something that wasn't sh*t.

[CyberCubed]

Remember the original idea for TMNT 2014 was for the Turtles to be aliens and to be from Dimension X, Shredder to be "Colonel Shrader" and he was also an alien with spikes coming out of him, and for Splinter to have no connection with the Turtles. And then white Eric Sachs Shredder on top of that.

As bad as TMNT 2014 was, I'm at least greatful they didn't go with the original idea.

[Commenter 42]

Remember the original idea for TMNT 2014 was for the Turtles to be aliens and to be from Dimension X, Shredder to be "Colonel Shrader" and he was also an alien with spikes coming out of him, and for Splinter to have no connection with the Turtles. And then white Eric Sachs Shredder on top of that.

As bad as TMNT 2014 was, I'm at least greatful they didn't go with the original idea.

Yes and no? They're doing to TMNT what they did to G.I. Joe.
PDMT 2 will resemble G.I. Joe 2 - more faithful to the OT ( if that matters) but ultimately, the excitement has passed. It hasn't reinvigorated the fanbase, it's exhausted and exasperated them. Shredder may look more like Shredder, B&R will show up, and maybe the internet will buzz, for a minute, but no one really cares, because no one wants to watch the green monkey Shreks for 2 hours again. They had their fix, it was kind of what they remembered, except boring and joyless, so they're good.

PDMT was like looking up an old friend from high school and getting together for coffee, only to realize you have nothing in common anymore. It didn't have to be that way, but it was. The fans won't show up for the second coffee.

[TurtleTitan97]

TMNT 2014 still made a sh*tton of money, unlike Fantastic 4 which is being bashed by everyone.
I don't understand people sometimes.

Yeah, seriously. Where the heck was this level of outrage last year?

[beeshaw]

It's like that with the TMNT... now. But it wasn't always that way. There's no longer any human heart at the center safeguarding things in any way, shape or form. I can't speak for Eastman ("it's the best movie ever, with 'The Raid' style fights!!!"), but I know Laird would have vetoed any incarnation of TMNT (2014) we know of at the front door until they came at him correct with something that wasn't sh*t.

Yeah but they were sold to a bigger company as an asset. So that's all they are now.

'They' saw a HUGE FRANCHISE, so they're being treated as such. It seems the bigger the franchise, the less care is put into it. Which is ass backwards of course. But the smaller scale stuff will always have more heart, more thought because there's less dollar signs at the end of the day. Smaller suits. Smaller investment. Smaller payoff (more often than not).

[Andrew NDB]

PDMT was like looking up an old friend from high school and getting together for coffee, only to realize you have nothing in common anymore. It didn't have to be that way, but it was. The fans won't show up for the second coffee.

That's not a bad analogy.

For me, it's a bit like Paramount/Viacom/Nick has this pit, you know, and there's a bunch of people standing around it. Paramount/Viacom/Nick starts shouting to other people, "Hey, come on down! I want you to check out my pit!" But no one really comes, so, in frustration, they start hanging lights and wind chimes around it. Again, they shout out, "HEY! Really now, check out my pit!" A couple new people come but leave, and the only people still there are the ones already standing there... and they don't even like the lights and wind chimes.

[IndigoErth]

Movies, in general, are a business.
Which is kind of sad, because at it's heart it originally was an art form, and it seems now is still largely only on the sidelines. As per usual, the businessmen take notice of anything that might lead to them making big bucks and snatch it up.

Only independent, smaller budget films get made by people who simply believed in it and wanted to make it, like 1990 Turtles, even while others didn't believe in it. It's a shame that people with that kind of passion don't generally have the access to the big budget stuff. (And the inner strength not to turn into a big Hollywood sort in the process.)

- - - - -

At this point I can deal with seeing more of the 2014 Turtles, and focusing on my favorite parts of the film I sorta do want more of them (preferably a whole enjoyable film though rather than parts of it)... but I greatly wish we as the fans and audience had some of the control on who gets to work with our beloved characters and make their film.

Remember the original idea for TMNT 2014 was for the Turtles to be aliens and to be from Dimension X, Shredder to be "Colonel Shrader" and he was also an alien with spikes coming out of him, and for Splinter to have no connection with the Turtles. And then white Eric Sachs Shredder on top of that.

As bad as TMNT 2014 was, I'm at least greatful they didn't go with the original idea.
Which is a shame, because it's a little like saying, "I'm glad I didn't live right next door to the nuclear reactor when it had a melt down and grateful I live almost ten miles away, even though the after effects still kind of suck."

[ranger_scout]

TMNT (2014) may have received bad reviews, but it was a box office success. Audiences did not seem to mind it because after its debut weekend, it still made a pretty darn good total in North America and was also a hit on home video. It did not crash and burn like Green Lantern did. Fantastic Four looks like it will experience the same fate as that superhero film. It is been lambasted by critics and audiences and it is expected to under-perform as well.

[Shark_Blade]

I can watch this movie today at the theater. :D

[IndigoErth]

Grats? :trazz:

[Commenter 42]

I can watch this movie today at the theater. :D

Please, go watch it. Don't come back.

[NinjaPug]

Trank's problem with F4 was that he received zero interference from Fox when he made Chronicle. He got to do what he wanted with no pushback from Fox. He was naive and expected the same thing with F4 despite Fox shelling out a lot more money for the budget. When he received pressure from Fox he obviously didn't handle it well. Plenty of directors have made good movies while dealing with crap from studios. Hopefully Trank rebounds.

[PangolinFeets]

All the F4 movies are awful so this isn't surprising. Fantastic Four are barely interesting as it is. The only reason I like them in the comics is because they had a lot of room to flesh out and Reed finally kinda retired into just being a 'smart guy'. If anything, make it a TV series.


If they decide to keep plugging ahead, I hope they just skip everything and go for a Franklin Richard's movie. That would at least be visually and conceptually entertaining.

[TrickOrTreater]

Believe it or not, this FF PoS movie had a very similar production to BayTurtles PoS.

And they both suck balls.

Even though they didn't have to.

It's a bummer.

[ranger_scout]

Fantastic Four received a "C-" from Cinemascore.

http://comicbook.com/2015/08/08/fantastic-four-earned-c-minus-cinemascore-from-audiences/

That is much lower than the "B" that TMNT (2014) received. Plus, it's compared day gross is abysmal compared to the opening day of TMNT (2014). It earned $11.3 million while Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles earned $25.6 million.

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/469783-fantastic-four-flops-with-11-3-million-on-friday#/slide/1

[Foombamaroom]

I think the controversy kinda helped TMNT. After the second trailer, the hate started dying down a little because the movie looked decent.

The difference between TMNT and F4 is that TMNT didn't take itself too seriously. It basically knew that it was going to be a Bay movie and it was just made for action/explosions. F4 was trying to be a good movie, and it crashed and burned. There were re-shoots for TMNT, but us fans caused those re-shoots (Shredder.). These re-shoots were based on studio/director disagreements. Plus, F4 was just flat out terrible. At least TMNT had the Turtles, the only good things about the movie.

All honesty, though, I thought the actors of F4 would've been great if they had more to work with. Miles Teller was a decent Reed, and Jordan, Mara, and Bell were decent, too. I really liked the way they portrayed Victor in the first half of the movie (I saw it online, wasn't gonna see it in theatres.). When he becomes Doom... his motivations are nonexistent. Although Doom's powers are cool and all, it just... It didn't feel like Doom. Honestly, the way he was portrayed... It felt more like Terminator.

[jenna]

Somewhere between Iron Man and the Avengers, Marvel suddenly got the stamp of approval from generic movie-goers and now they're churning them out faster than they can write them. They've run out of new property and are now re-doing the rounds, assuming that by slapping the Marvel brand on something they'll bring in the big ££££s.

Daredevil on Netflix - which is genuinely extraordinary writing - excepted, the thought and quality that's going into these things are getting poorer and poorer.

Is it any wonder fans get upset at their incompetence and that last minute panics result?

There are a lot of comic adaptions out there. So far the only ones that have struck a chord with me are Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy and Daredevil on Netflix. They've not been churned out, they've been expertly crafted.

That's the treatment turtles deserves.

[TrickOrTreater]

Somewhere between Iron Man and the Avengers, Marvel suddenly got the stamp of approval from generic movie-goers and now they're churning them out faster than they can write them. They've run out of new property and are now re-doing the rounds, assuming that by slapping the Marvel brand on something they'll bring in the big ££££s.

Daredevil on Netflix - which is genuinely extraordinary writing - excepted, the thought and quality that's going into these things are getting poorer and poorer.

Is it any wonder fans get upset at their incompetence and that last minute panics result?

There are a lot of comic adaptions out there. So far the only ones that have struck a chord with me are Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy and Daredevil on Netflix. They've not been churned out, they've been expertly crafted.

That's the treatment turtles deserves.

...you are aware that Marvel Studios had nothing to do with Fantfourstic right?

This was a 20th Century Fox movie based on Marvel characters, not a Marvel Studios movie.

[Wildcat]

Well I'm not really a Fantastic 4 fan. I saw the first live action movie and that's about it but sounds like another case of fan whining over some differences in portrayal and the studio listening to it which is not something you wanna do.

Whoever steps in to authorize these kind of changes needs to turn off their internet service. Seriously how hard is it to ignore the internet?...where everything is "worst thing evAr!"

:lol:

[jenna]

...you are aware that Marvel Studios had nothing to do with Fantfourstic right?

This was a 20th Century Fox movie based on Marvel characters, not a Marvel Studios movie.

Yeah - sorry - I was referring to Marvel property, not Marvel Studios.

Just that the "Marvel" name has really increased in popularity, creating high demand for comic book adaptions.

[IndigoErth]

Whoever steps in to authorize these kind of changes needs to turn off their internet service. Seriously how hard is it to ignore the internet?...where everything is "worst thing evAr!"
Starting to wonder if there is a line where "worst thing" is allowed to be legit.

I mean, they do need to consider the people who are the most likely to give them money, because to them film is after all a product to sell, so... could be a reason they have some amount of interest in what the bigger consensus is saying.


Besides... if complaints push them to try at least a little harder (e.g. adding at least a few Foot ninjas this time), why is it bad. If actually listening to an audience results in a film they'd be happier with and it does better and gets better praise and looks good on the film makers...then it's a win-win.

[Powder]

If the PD guys hadn't listened to the fans (albeit at a bare minimum) their film would've tanked like this as well...

[TrickOrTreater]

Well I'm not really a Fantastic 4 fan. I saw the first live action movie and that's about it but sounds like another case of fan whining over some differences in portrayal and the studio listening to it which is not something you wanna do.

Whoever steps in to authorize these kind of changes needs to turn off their internet service. Seriously how hard is it to ignore the internet?...where everything is "worst thing evAr!"

:lol:

Oh be quiet. Literally the only changes that were made because of "fan complaining" were two name changes.

Victor Domashev(stupid decision in the first place) became Victor Von Doom so he was AT LEAST Doom in Name Only. Everything else about him apparently sucked anyway.

And Harvey Elder was changed to General Allen or whatever the f*ck.

Reshooting a 1/3 of the movie, about 40 minutes worth and hacking the thing up was all on FOX and their insecurities.

As well as Trank not being able to deliver anything good to begin with probably.

Fans complained about a lot of other stuff too throughout production and none of that was changed.

So this bullsh*t you keep going on about "fan complaining" can stop.

It's a sh*tty movie because it's a sh*tty movie. Has nothing to do with the fans.

EDIT: And it's not just fans that hate this sh*t movie. Critics do, and the general audience does as well, giving it a C- on CinemaScore.

[Bry]

Fantastic Four received a "C-" from Cinemascore.

http://comicbook.com/2015/08/08/fantastic-four-earned-c-minus-cinemascore-from-audiences/

That is much lower than the "B" that TMNT (2014) received. Plus, it's compared day gross is abysmal compared to the opening day of TMNT (2014). It earned $11.3 million while Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles earned $25.6 million.

http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/469783-fantastic-four-flops-with-11-3-million-on-friday#/slide/1

Cinemascores are weird. They're polled on opening night, among audiences that are the most excited to see the movie in question, and tend to score higher than you'd expect on average for that kind of rating system. The vast majority of movies get a B or higher, based on what I've read. My understanding is that basically anything B or lower is considered less-than-great, and a C or lower is pretty dire.

[Redeemer]

http://i.imgur.com/q5tmtch.jpg

I don't really know squat about Fantastic 4 to be honest, but even then that premise is just...

Did...did... these people go to school with the Turtle's people? Did stupid ideas get an A+ in screen writing class?

Question is though, will they find an old video game strategy guide book and learn powers from it? Unless they do that, then Bay Turtles is still the master at this.

They probably did, especially with the politically correct "Everyone Wins, Nobody losses" our society has developed. :lol:

[Wildcat]

Starting to wonder if there is a line where "worst thing" is allowed to be legit.

I mean, they do need to consider the people who are the most likely to give them money, because to them film is after all a product to sell, so... could be a reason they have some amount of interest in what the bigger consensus is saying.


Besides... if complaints push them to try at least a little harder (e.g. adding at least a few Foot ninjas this time), why is it bad. If actually listening to an audience results in a film they'd be happier with and it does better and gets better praise and looks good on the film makers...then it's a win-win.But by the sound of it, listening to internet complaints, they're going back and reconstructing an already layed out movie.

Which is worse than whatever character/plot etc changes they were doing in the beginning. Now, most likely, the movie ends ups being cobbled together just to please fans complaining about things that were not that big a deal in the first place.

I don't see how any studio could even let complaining on the internet influence their production. It's the movie industry...but wait let's not anger message board users and bloggers. :roll:

[Leo656]

So it's a bad idea to pay attention to people who know more about the story/characters than you do? Interesting theory, but I'm afraid it's not very sound. People developing licensed properties SHOULD listen to their audience, they're the ones paying the money, and frankly, very few studio people even know what the property they're trying to adapt is even about, they just know it's popular.

Like, I don't know a damn thing about Dr. Strange. If I'm making the Dr. Strange movie, like if it wasn't my choice and I was assigned the project... do I wanna just insist I'm an "artist" and know what I'm doing, do it all "My Way" and insist it'll be great because I'm me and "I know better", or should I take into consideration the ideas and feelings of people who are a lot more familiar with and interested in the character than I am?

"F** the fans, I know better, I'm the guy wearing a suit"... I don't think that's a very good approach, frankly. I think you need to listen to your audience, not just be different for different's sake.

[TurtleTitan97]

But by the sound of it, listening to internet complaints, they're going back and reconstructing an already layed out movie.

Which is worse than whatever character/plot etc changes they were doing in the beginning. Now, most likely, the movie ends ups being cobbled together just to please fans complaining about things that were not that big a deal in the first place.

I don't see how any studio could even let complaining on the internet influence their production. It's the movie industry...but wait let's not anger message board users and bloggers. :roll:

:roll:

You said so yourself that you weren't a fan of the Fantastic Four. If you realize what they were doing with this movie, you'd be mad too, even before the rehoots. Especially considering how we have never gotten a GOOD F4 movie AT ALL. This movie was literally doomed to fail.

[IndigoErth]

Fans/internet... lol A film that's going to be bad, probably started off that way from page one. Probably before it.

If you want to take a property and make a film for it but have not yet put in an appropriately large amount of research, learned the in's and out's and gotten a feel of the important parts and understand why it's important - if that hasn't happened or has only scratched the surface with what you think are "the basics," then put down the Microsoft Word (or what ever the heck you're writing it with) until you DO. Do not move forward or pass go until you study extensively and GET. IT. Because jumping the gun is probably how you end up with Colonel Schrader, ninja books, missing and disconnected elements that are important and so on. And there is no excuse for that. If you're going into it relatively clueless - to the point you can't even talk to the media as if you understand it - then that is not the fan's fault for complaining, it's your fault from failing to do the required leg work from the start. And if you don't have the interest required to do the leg work, then put down the property. To do otherwise or expect it doesn't matter...you're basically a fully color blind child trying to paint a rainbow and everyone is supposed to nod and tell you it's pretty.

[Leo656]

:lol: You're a poet, seriously. :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Indigo, why oh why have you never given writing a try? I bet you'd pen some great TMNT fics. You have such a flare for the poetic.

[IndigoErth]

Aw, shucks guys. :D

Well...I have now and then dabbled in writing a little over the years off and on, though I never really did fan fic stuff in the past (*cough* I may have touched on it a little at this point... *cough*). Having the guts to ever share anything is another matter.

[Wildcat]

Well I was talking about how the majority of a movie can be made but later reworked because of complaining. Reconstructing after viewing complaints is stupid.

One of the bad things about the internet...something shows up and it's nit-picked to oblivion. Changes to story, characters etc.. don't equal "we're trashing everything and starting from scratch". Which is what people make it out to be.

Not counting the aliens tmnt thing, I'd much rather see a different take on something than later getting a mashed together movie just so it fits the exact original format.

[Leo656]

Aw, shucks guys. :D

Well...I have now and then dabbled in writing a little over the years off and on, though I never really did fan fic stuff in the past (*cough* I may have touched on it a little at this point... *cough*). Having the guts to ever share anything is another matter.

Dare ya. :trazz:

[IndigoErth]

Maybe a little someday...

[TMNT is cooler than MOTU]

FF didn't turn into a turd due to reshoots. It started out as a turd and turned into an even bigger turd when things started getting so shuffled around with the production. Everyone involved in the making of this movie knows dick squat about what makes the Fantastic Four...er, fantastic.

If you want a detailed summary of all the behind-the-scenes drama, I suggest you check out this article from Entertainment Weekly.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/08/07/fantastic-four-josh-trank-tweet

[IndigoErth]

Seen on Facebook...

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11825839_10204920212622198_2947215838966382300_n.j pg?oh=9b2ccfef0b66d839b79e2a666b5eae6e&oe=563BAF16
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204920212622198&set=a.1441941285661.2070614.1146954628&type=1

[TurtleTitan97]

Seen on Facebook...

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11825839_10204920212622198_2947215838966382300_n.j pg?oh=9b2ccfef0b66d839b79e2a666b5eae6e&oe=563BAF16
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204920212622198&set=a.1441941285661.2070614.1146954628&type=1

:lol::lol::lol: Nice.

[Commenter 42]

Seen on Facebook...

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11825839_10204920212622198_2947215838966382300_n.j pg?oh=9b2ccfef0b66d839b79e2a666b5eae6e&oe=563BAF16
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204920212622198&set=a.1441941285661.2070614.1146954628&type=1

Amazing. :lol::lol::lol:

[TrickOrTreater]

FOX stands to piss away 60 million bucks because this movie flopped so hard.

Good.

Why couldn't BayTurtles have been so lucky?

[TMNT is cooler than MOTU]

FOX stands to piss away 60 million bucks because this movie flopped so hard.

Good.

Why couldn't BayTurtles have been so lucky?

Brand recognition?

[DarkLightDragon]

Seen on Facebook...

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/11825839_10204920212622198_2947215838966382300_n.j pg?oh=9b2ccfef0b66d839b79e2a666b5eae6e&oe=563BAF16
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10204920212622198&set=a.1441941285661.2070614.1146954628&type=1

OMG.:lol:

You know a movie's bad when a theater distributing it is being honest about it.

[ToTheNines]

OMG.:lol:

You know a movie's bad when a theater distributing it is being honest about it.

They're not, it's called irony. It's just advertising Amy Schumer's movie "Trainwreck" below F4.

[Leo656]

That's always great when that happens. :lol: That's like the time the band Fozzy played someplace, and were co-headlining with a group called "Gay", and the way the marquee sign was arranged from top to bottom, it read:

"Tonight!
Fozzy
Gay"

:lol: Serendipity, man.

[Foombamaroom]

"This movie is about a team of four, who are a family, uniting to stop an underdeveloped villain with little-to-no motivation."

^You don't know if I'm talking about TMNT or Fantastic Four 2015. :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Except that THIS FF wasn't even a family. Sue was adopted (and barely spoke to Johnny), And Ben had been mostly ignored by Reed since he went off to the Baxter school or whatever it was. Where's the "family" here?

(To quote '90 Casey): "Family? You call this here, and that down there FAMILY?!"

[IndigoErth]

"This movie is about a team of four, who are a family, uniting to stop an underdeveloped villain with little-to-no motivation."

^You don't know if I'm talking about TMNT or Fantastic Four 2015. :lol:
:lol: I swear the film industry must just have a book of plot lines at this point and they just randomly open a page and put their finger on one. (Someone should try near the front or back, prob some good ones that haven't been used in a while.)

"...stop an underdeveloped villain..."
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/63/67/1e/63671e0d74d8598b7cd44731ccb8f8a0.jpg

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Oh hey, is mini-Shredder in this?

[TurtleMullet]

I'll give you that. BUT do we really know which party was responsible for FF's general shittiness? Trank or Fox? I mean, after all... this guy turned down doing Star Wars.

Trank didn't turn down Star Wars. Read my long post below and sit under the learning tree. Trank was offered the Boba Fett film and because of the F4 debacle, Lucasfilm made it look like they parted ways on equal terms to help him save face. They gave him the boot 1000%. He bodied his own career. I read an interview with him saying that he wanted to focus on "original projects" and that he chose to step away. That's false misinformation. Trank just doesn't want to accept his own failure and be a man. There has NEVER been a bigger blunder in THE HISTORY OF BLOCKBUSTER FILMMAKING than what has just transpired these past few months with Trank. And he did it all himself. I hope you enjoy what I'm about to tell you.

Josh Trank had the opportunity of a lifetime. All he had to do was put in a half decent attempt at a film, and he had a STAR WARS (A Boba Fett Spin-off, no less) film up next (See Gareth Edwards)

Instead, Trank showed up to set every day so stoned that he was passing out mid-sentence. He often deferred to Simon Kinberg (Executive Producer on F4, and member of the Star Wars Story Group at Lucasfilm) to give direction to the actors and crew-members. Trank also brought his dogs with him to Louisiana, and together with his canine coalition, managed to absolutely ravage the house the production had rented for him.

Trank was scheduled to appear at Star Wars Celebration Anaheim in April, alongside Gareth Edwards, to discuss their set of Star Wars Anthology films. At the last minute, Trank was pulled from appearing by Lucasfilm, with the reason stated that he had the flu. Trank even went to Twitter to say he had "the worst flu he'd ever experienced". This was a PR stunt to save face while Lucasfilm made a final decision on whether or not to proceed with Trank as director. The original plan was for a Q&A panel with both Josh Trank and Gareth Edwards, discussing their respective Star Wars films. Only Edwards appeared and they showed a proof of concept teaser reel. There was also a proof of concept teaser reel for Trank's Boba Fett film that was not shown, due to his absence.

Kathy Kennedy (Head of Lucasfilm) sat down in a meeting with the Lucasfilm Story Group, including Simon Kinberg (Executive Producer of F4), to discuss Trank's future. Kinberg gave Trank a vote of no confidence, saying he conducted himself like an amateur on the set of F4, and that he folded under the pressure of the Fox executives to deliver the film that they envisioned, and that there was NO WAY he could handle the pressure and responsibility of delivering a Star Wars picture.

The film in theaters might not be Trank's vision of the film, but Trank knew what he was getting himself into. The executives at Fox asked for some changes a month or so before principal photography on F4, and Trank wasn't happy at all with the changes, but still decided to do the film. He could've pulled out right then and there, much like Edgar Wright did at the last minute on Ant-Man, but no, Trank decided to take the director's chair, anyway. He went in and shot HIS version of the film, instead of shooting the film that Fox recommended. What came after was an absolute mess. Trank was stoned out of his mind every day, trying to film HIS vision of the F4 property, while also reporting back to FOX.

Once the FOX executives starting reviewing the dailies, they knew they had an absolute catastrophe on their hands. They let the shoot continue on, and told Trank to shoot what they needed him to shoot. But Trank didn't. So at the end of the original principal photography, the suits at FOX decided to LOCK TRANK OUT OF THE EDITING BAY ON HIS OWN FILM. They had a ton of footage shot, but none of it was consistent. The continuity was absolutely pitiful. So what does FOX do? They call up their #1 heavy hitter, Matthew Vaughn. Vaughn comes in and reviews every morsel of footage, and he and Simon Kinberg sit down to try to save the film. They manage to piece together somewhat of a cohesive film and FOX agrees to bring the original cast back for reshoots.

Keep in mind these reshoots took place in early 2015. Simon Kinberg directed the reshoots, with Matthew Vaughn as a consultant. Josh Trank was nowhere to be found for most of the reshoots, though he did have some minimal involvement. But FOX wasn't at all happy with him. For anyone who has seen the film, you will notice that the first and second acts are much more cohesive than the third act. That's because FOX was able to salvage the majority of Trank's first and second act, but they had to reshoot virtually the entire second act, because the footage just wasn't viable. This lead to dozens and dozens of continuity errors, inconsistencies, etc. The film is just an absolute mess.

So Kinberg had to go back to Lucasfilm and tell them about this disaster and he advised them to immediately sever all ties with Josh Trank, as quickly as possible. Lucasfilm did this before F4 was in theaters, as they knew of the impending "Doom" (or Domashev) that lied ahead. Nothing that Josh Trank brought to F4 was any good. His ideas were vilified by the public while this film was in pre-production. The ONLY reason this movie was even greenlit in the first place because if FOX didn't release a new F4 film soon, they would lose the movie rights, and they would revert back to Marvel.

And on opening night of the film, Trank took to Twitter saying a year ago he had a film that would be "fantastic" and that this current film wasn't his vision, but took it down 9 minutes later. What Trank didn't tell you was that his vision wasn't any better than FOX's vision, and that he acted like a complete and utter asshole during the entire shoot. Trank managed to nuke his entire career in one go. He'll never work for a major studio in Hollywood again. Not a chance. He's done. Finished. Cooked. When you make enemies at FOX and you have everyone at Lucasfilm shaking their head at you (who had faith in Trank as a future prodigy director enough to give him one of their spin-off films) you can count on it that he'll never work on any major property again. Both FOX and Lucasfilm were running damage control way before the film came out, trying to say good things about Josh, so that he could continue his career and move on to other projects, but the guy just couldn't stop running his mouth, and now the truth is out. Nobody from the cast of F4 or the production team or any of the suits at FOX were saying anything negative about him to the media. But who do you think is leaking out all of this negative press about Trank now that he's tried to put the blame on FOX's shoulders? FOX tried to help him save his career. Lucasfilm tried to help him save his career. He's dug his own grave. He pulled the wrong move. This is what it looks like when a career goes POOF!

Not to worry. Trank is much better suited to collaborate with the crowned jewel of nepotism, Max Landis, shooting $17 budget mumblecore movies on Vimeo for the art house aristocracy and the DSLR hierarchy of herpes having Hollywood hipsters. He won't be missed by anybody who enjoys a cinematic experience. My only worry is that Trank continues to stumble further into his depression and drug use, leading to a suicide. He really has a lot of issues he needs to work out after this debacle. I can imagine his psyche is absolutely fried. Josh Trank will go down in history as "Josh Tank". It's unfortunate. He had potential, but he has that millennial mindset of unachieved entitlement that plagues our society today. That just isn't going to cut it in the Hollywood studio system, especially when you have NO clout.

But he's no different than Jonathan Liebesman in regards to his "talent" or abilities as a filmmaker, really. Though, Chronicle is better than anything Liebesman has ever or will ever make. The difference is, Liebesman is well-liked by Michael Bay because he does what he is told and he doesn't defer from what the hierarchy at Platinum Dunes tells him. He's a corporate shill. But together, Trank and Liebesman are responsible for the 2 worst movies of recent memory. TMNT takes the crown in 2014, and Fantastic Four takes it in 2015. Let's just hope for the sake of all of you here that the TMNT sequel in 2016 is an improvement over the last one, because Liebesman is out of the picture, though I have a feeling it's going to be much worse. Sucks for the fans.

When I see how well Disney/Lucasfilm is handling Star Wars and how well Disney/Marvel is handling their comic properties, and how Universal (Jurassic World, Minions, and about 4-5 other mega hits) has had their biggest year in a LONG time, I just shudder at what's happening with Paramount/Platinum Dunes. Hell, George Miller comes into Mad Max: Fury Road after years of making Babe movies and Happy Feet movies, and he delivers the best visual masterpiece I've seen in years. It might be the best Mad Max film ever, it's easily the best looking. These TMNT movies are nowhere near the quality of the mega blockbusters those companies are putting out. And it has a lot to do with the fact that there are no visionaries on either side of the fence - behind the camera or behind the desks at the production companies. I can only hope that one day a true fan of the property can get behind the lens of a camera and make a Turtles masterpiece. The 1990 film is proof that it can be done.

[Leo656]

Nice post, I appreciate you bud. Disasters like this is where my "catchphrase" of "Good movies only happen by accident" comes from. :lol:

What's this guy supposedly on, anyway? I'm curious, mostly because most of the people working in Hollywood are pretty f*cked up as a general rule but still get their work done. I mean, Bryan Singer has a pretty persistent crystal meth addiction ("allegedly") and he's considered a genius.

Basically, if your drug problem is so bad that people working in Hollywood think you have a drug problem, you might be pretty far f*cked already. The "passing out mid-sentence" bit sounds like he's stickin' needles in his arm. Blech. Makes sense, though; refusing to accept blame/criticism and saying your f*ck-ups are all everyone else's fault is typically consistent junkie behavior.

Funny isn't it? If your manager at McDonald's catches you getting high in the bathroom, you're fired and might never flip a burger again. But in Hollywood you can be a complete junkie f*ck-up and still find high-paying work, even occasionally be given control over potentially billion-dollar projects.

Life don't make no kinda sense.

[pennydreadful]

Mullet, that post was a thing of sheer beauty - I adore hearing tales of behind-the-scenes shenanigans. Like Leo said, successful movies usually happen despite the studio and the people involved, rather than because of them. It's fascinating to me how some films manage to make their mark despite the egos, drug use, bad writing/bad ideas, on-set affairs/arguments and studio interference... and some just don't.

[PangolinFeets]

Wow, he sounds like a piece of work. Its hard to think of him next to someone like Edwards working on those Star Wars spinoffs. Gareth Edwards is pretty amazing. Monster was such a cool movie for the budget and team he was able to pull that off with.

[ScrewtheMirageTMNT]

Somewhere between Iron Man and the Avengers, Marvel suddenly got the stamp of approval from generic movie-goers and now they're churning them out faster than they can write them. They've run out of new property and are now re-doing the rounds, assuming that by slapping the Marvel brand on something they'll bring in the big ££££s.

Daredevil on Netflix - which is genuinely extraordinary writing - excepted, the thought and quality that's going into these things are getting poorer and poorer.

Is it any wonder fans get upset at their incompetence and that last minute panics result?

There are a lot of comic adaptions out there. So far the only ones that have struck a chord with me are Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy and Daredevil on Netflix. They've not been churned out, they've been expertly crafted.

That's the treatment turtles deserves.


Run out of new properties? WTF are you talking about? Dr.Strange, Inhumans, Captain Marvel? A lot of the general audience doesn't even know who they are. You make it sound like marvel studios have used every single marvel character that has ever been created.

[Etsyturtle2]

Aaaahhhh omfg seriously ahhhhhhhbhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhjust everybodyshutupjustahhhhhhbhh

[Shark_Blade]

Aaaahhhh omfg seriously ahhhhhhhbhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhjust everybodyshutupjustahhhhhhbhh
Are you off your meds, my sweet?

[IndigoErth]

I think it was merely the sound one makes when it is realized that Hollywood has developed the consistency of quicksand.

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/giphy4.gif