Official Ep Discussion: S3 Ep20: "Tale of the Yokai"

[Machias Banshee]

Yōkai (妖怪?, ghost, phantom, strange apparition) are a class of supernatural monsters in Japanese folklore. The word yōkai is made up of the kanji for "bewitching; attractive; calamity" and "apparition; mystery; suspicious".[1] They can also be called ayakashi (妖?), mononoke (物の怪?), or mamono (魔物?). Yōkai range eclectically from the malevolent to the mischievous, or occasionally bring good fortune to those who encounter them. Often they possess animal features (such as the Kappa, which is similar to a turtle, or the Tengu which has wings), other times they can appear mostly human, some look like inanimate objects and others have no discernible shape.

VVWKcX6YFnw

There are no words to describe how excited I am for this episode, as I'm sure we all are. :)

Going to the past is very tricky, especially with the tense rivalry between Yoshi and Saki that they will be witnessing. And Tang Shen... there's a lot of excitement to see Tang Shen 'alive' on the screen.

There's been a lot of speculation regarding what she will be like, if the turtles will meet her, and the suffering that will take place. Knowing the greed and anger in Saki's heart, the trauma they're about to see their future father endure - they cannot save her. They can NEVER save her... or they will no longer exist themselves.

How I wish this was a multi-parter arc... how I wish....

[saintsaucey]

Do we know for sure they went back to yoshi, saki and shen's time period. It just seemed a little farther back. What if instead we see the origin of the families fued with each other. Worse what if the turtles are the ones that cause it. I mean splinter and shredder are like in their fifties if that. And the last scene seemed to bee in the feudal time period

[Ninjinister]

Do we know for sure they went back to yoshi, saki and shen's time period. It just seemed a little farther back. What if instead we see the origin of the families fued with each other. Worse what if the turtles are the ones that cause it. I mean splinter and shredder are like in their fifties if that. And the last scene seemed to bee in the feudal time period

There have been previews showing the Turtles meet the young Saki and Yoshi. Also weren't there modern buildings at the end of the last episode?
EDIT: Dude just watch the clip in the top post

[saintsaucey]

There have been previews showing the Turtles meet the young Saki and Yoshi. Also weren't there modern buildings at the end of the last episode?

I dont watch nick except for turtles so I haven't seen any previews. I just remembered ninjas on horse back. Not the sort of thing you would have seen 50 years ago. Even in japan.

[Vicky82]

I dont watch nick except for turtles so I haven't seen any previews. I just remembered ninjas on horse back. Not the sort of thing you would have seen 50 years ago. Even in japan.

That was the last episode Turtles in Time, The turtles were in medival times.:roll:

[Ninjinister]

I dont watch nick except for turtles so I haven't seen any prevn japan.
I don't see how that's relevant. I haven't had cable for over a year and I've seen at least 5 previews for this episode. And again, there is one right there in this topic

[TigerClaw]

Almost time. :)

[Vicky82]

I am not ready!!!!!!!!!

[GoldMutant]

Showtime!!! :)

Also, I called that clip being the intro. Let's see how it goes.

[TigerClaw]

And it begins.

[saintsaucey]

That was the last episode Turtles in Time, The turtles were in medival times.:roll:

I don't see how that's relevant. I haven't had cable for over a year and I've seen at least 5 previews for this episode. And again, there is one right there in this topic

Good lord what a pompus ass you are. So because you have seen trailers for this new episode it is impossible than spmeone else hasn't seen trailers. I didnt click the link.

[DarkLightDragon]

Aww, cute Karai.

Like Tang Shen and Yoshi having a little disagreement about wanting to leave the clan. Saying the life of a ninja is not for their daughter. Oh, honey, if only you knew...

And being able to take care of yourself? Yeah, blatant foreshadowing right there.

[GoldMutant]

Still don't like dialogue saying a certain time has passed. Tang Shen as everyone predicted is Karai from the 2014 movie.

[saintsaucey]

That was the last episode Turtles in Time, The turtles were in medival times.:roll:

No that was knights on horse back. For some reason I thought the ninjas in the final scene from last week were on horse back as well.

[DarkLightDragon]

Love the interactions between the Turtles and Shen. Calling them 'kappa' and Leo holding Miwa as she tugs his bandanna strands. Made me smile.

Really liking this.:D

[Vicky82]

No that was knights on horse back. For some reason I thought the ninjas in the final scene from last week were on horse back as well.

The turtles used the horses too. You need to watch the episode again.

[TurFlytle]

That was so emotional. :cry: Probably one of the best episodes in Season 3. Next week is Mega Shredder.

[lonewarrior20]

man that was heavy.

my favorite line was "this is just like that one movie!"

[Powder]

Best episode of the season, as we all knew it would be.

[Luckyday]

Well I hate to say this but didn't they drop the ball on the one thing we've been talking about for the last couple of days or is just me?

I mean we all wondering how Shredder is going to know that he's adopted?
And it was off screen AGAIN! What the **** guys!:x

[Vicky82]

OMG!!!! that episode was awesome and intense, i'm in tears right now. :cry:

[Ninturtle]

Well I hate to say this but didn't they drop the ball on the one thing we've been talking about for the last couple of days or is just me?

I mean we all wondering how Shredder is going to know that he's adopted?
And it was off screen AGAIN! What the **** guys!:x

It's probably just you , so far people are really liking this episode.

[Foombamaroom]

My God, that episode was phenomenal. Can't wait for Mega Shredder. My only complaint is that I wish the episode ended with Leo being pissed off and saying they need to kill the Shredder.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Great Episode, although, it makes me wonder when was this set? The Seventies? Eighties, maybe?

[Ninturtle]

My God, that episode was phenomenal. Can't wait for Mega Shredder. My only complaint is that I wish the episode ended with Leo being pissed off and saying they need to kill the Shredder.

They'll probably touch on that next episode as his motive for going to Shredders lair.

[NinjaPug]

Great Episode, although, it makes me wonder when was this set? The Seventies? Eighties, maybe?

16 years ago

[Haalix]

best.episode.yet!!! I laughed, screamed and cried. Mikey and Donnie watching Shen's dead body... that was just too much.

And am I the only one who was screaming for Leo to save Miwa after Shen ran into the burning house?

[JTH]

Well I hate to say this but didn't they drop the ball on the one thing we've been talking about for the last couple of days or is just me?

I mean we all wondering how Shredder is going to know that he's adopted?
And it was off screen AGAIN! What the **** guys!:x
How could they do it on screen, the point was he had known for years.

I don't believe that needed to be a necessary reveal on screen.

[ObiWanFan4life]

16 years ago

So probably early 90s.

[Vicky82]

Great Episode, although, it makes me wonder when was this set? The Seventies? Eighties, maybe?

It happend 16 years ago so it be 1996, i'm going by from 2012.

[TurFlytle]

So probably early 90s.

Well, Karai is 16 years old as of now and the show takes place in the early 21st century (more specifically 2012) so yeah.

[Ninjinister]

Good lord what a pompus ass you are. So because you have seen trailers for this new episode it is impossible than spmeone else hasn't seen trailers. I didnt click the link.

Hey, you know what isn't the appropriate response to what I said? Name calling. I was trying to tell you that your question's answer was not only readily accessible, but also right in front of you. Don't get mad at me because you failed to follow directions.

[ObiWanFan4life]

I think that this episode takes place in 1994-95, Hamato Yoshi moves to New York in 1996, and buys the Turtles in 1997.

[TigerClaw]

It was a good episode, It was quite emotional at the end.

[Vicky82]

I expect Splinter moved to New York as soon as his father died as it was mentioned he was ill.

So if Karai was born in 95/96, she was probably a few months old in this episode.
I expect Splinter moved to New York a few months later so it be about 97 as the turtles were probably a couple of months old when they mutated. Karai is a year older than the turtles.

Tale Of The Yokai IGN review is up.

9.0

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2015/08/09/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-tale-of-the-yokai-review

[VaughnMichael]

Man this was really good and a surprising twist that Splinter & Shredder are brothers, even if Shredder is adopted.
He's such a crazy ungrateful asshole.
I never yell at me tv during shows but this one had me screaming "Come On!!" when the turtles didn't stop Shredder from taking Karai.
I really thought that's how she would be cured.
A pretty action packed and emotional episode like others have said.
I also really enjoyed the Capa back story and the art.

[syk_skillz]

Ain't it technically a year after the show started. I thought the Turtles was 15 when the show began? So it would make it 2013 for the current timeline.

[Karai Samurai]

So are they ever going to address Shredder's American accent?
Pig Goat Banana Cricket looks dumb AF.

[victory_angel]

Man this was really good and a surprising twist that Splinter & Shredder are brothers, even if Shredder is adopted.
He's such a crazy ungrateful asshole.
I never yell at me tv during shows but this one had me screaming "Come On!!" when the turtles didn't stop Shredder from taking Karai.
I really thought that's how she would be cured.
A pretty action packed and emotional episode like others have said.
I also really enjoyed the Capa back story and the art.

They mentioned in vengeance is mine that Splinter and Shredder were raised as brothers.

The Turtles couldn't stop Shredder from abducting Miwa, because if Splinter had Miwa he wouldn't have needed the Turtles in his life. So as much as they would have wanted to save her so they could spare her from what she would become, they couldn't because it would affect the future.

[PangolinFeets]

Was it said before that Shen was actually part Chinese? Because people sure like to get their panties in a bunch over her Chinese name. I guess that's the writers way of saying 'suck it'. Lol.

That was a great episode. Lotsa cool fights, seeing the events that lead to Splinter going to New York, baby Miwa... Also, Shredder's voice coming out of a regular-looking dude is so awkward.

[Vicky82]

It was a pretty dark episode.

Tang Shen's death was on screen. :cry:
Shredder ran out of the temple with his head on fire. :o

[evan2000]

Was it said before that Shen was actually part Chinese?

Never before in the Nick series, but in the 4kids series they showed her tombstone with the words 唐慎 (http://www.pin1yin1.com/#唐慎) which was clearly Chinese characters with the correct pronunciation.

http://i.imgur.com/47C0IjE.jpg

Shredder's voice coming out of a regular-looking dude is so awkward.

So is Splinter's :trazz:

[BubblyShell22]

Man, that was definitely an emotional episode. I'm sure Leo wanted to save Miwa, but he couldn't because he knew that if he did, time would change and that couldn't happen. I loved how the Turtles talked to Shen and Leo holding Miwa made me go, "Awww!" But I know this will cause Leo to sneak out of the Lair and try to get to Shredder because he knows that this is the only way it can end. I loved how Yoshi and Shen talked about their future and how Shen wanted to leave for America. If only that had happened! The fight was intense and they did show Shen's death onscreen, which was something I never thought they would do. Overall, a very emotional episode and a good one. Minae was great as Shen.

Favorite quote:

Leo: We yokai will steal your souls through your butt! Mwahahahaha!

Raph: Through your butt?

Leo: Hey, it's based off of actual Japanese legend.

Bring on the next episode.

[miru]

I was expecting Saki to sound different. And Shen was a pretty good character.

[TurFlytle]

It was a pretty dark episode.

Tang Shen's death was on screen. :cry:
Shredder ran out of the temple with his head on fire. :o

Remember, Ciro also worked on Teen Titans. (Which is pretty dark, at least when they don't have joke episodes.) So, I expected it for someone like him to do that.

[Vicky82]

Remember, Ciro also worked on Teen Titans. (Which is pretty dark, at least when they don't have joke episodes.) So, I expected it for someone like him to do that.

I never watched Teen Titans but I have heard of some of the dark moments in it.

[JH24]

That was a great episode. I enjoyed in particular the scene with the turtles and Tang Shen. Leo holding Miwa and her tugging the strands of his headband/bandana was adorable.

[PangolinFeets]

Imagine if they just, like, called the police....lol.

[TurFlytle]

It seems like all the emotional episodes are always towards the end of a season. Ex: Timothy and Karai's mutation, some of "The Invasion"'s 2nd half, etc.

[Vicky82]

It seems like all the emotional episodes are always towards the end of a season. Ex: Timothy and Karai's mutation, some of "The Invasion"'s 2nd half, etc.

Yeah also Dinosaurs Seen in the Sewer could be a emotional episode if Zog is killed off.

[Autbot_Benz]

now I really want Saki and Yoshi action figures but Playmates will never do that.

[Vicky82]

Peter Di Cicco put this on Tumblr.

I‘m just gonna leave this here

Try to imagine what else we tried to get into the episode before the network said, “Um, this is a KIDS show!”

Get your headcanons ready…

Filed under TMNT TMNT 2012 Tale of the Yokai yeah it might have been even darker some stuff almost made it and was cut too and some stuff had to be cut for time



http://peterdicicco.tumblr.com/post/126270507462/im-just-gonna-leave-this-here

So something got cut. :o

[oldmanwinters]

Woah, that was definitely the most hardcore episode of the series thus far.

Interesting twist in showing that Tang Shen really did have affection for Saki.

[evan2000]

So something got cut. :o

Shredder's darker backstory? Hamato Yuuta's death?

Yoshi & Tang Shen's more intimate moments? :tlol:

BTW just found an easter egg, an SRMFF action figure can be seen in Tang Shen's kitchen:

http://i.imgur.com/oM6cZHz.jpg

[Vicky82]

Woah, that was definitely the most hardcore episode of the series thus far.

Interesting twist in showing that Tang Shen really did have affection for Saki.

I actually thought they were going to kiss.

[oldmanwinters]

So are they ever going to address Shredder's American accent?


Saki liked to watch a lot of American television in the 1990s?

[shredder orokusaki]

Peter Di Cicco put this on Tumblr.



http://peterdicicco.tumblr.com/post/126270507462/im-just-gonna-leave-this-here

So something got cut. :o

And that why the next cartoon must be done by another channesl that dont focus on kids. 2003 series had way darker epidoses than it for example Insane in the membrane where Baxter body gets destroyed. But no Nick for some stupid reason is afraid to show lot of violence. They must realize that they are lot of adults who watch the show and not just kids.

[Fang Wolf]

Great Ep this was....
Now I get to see more what happened between Saki, Shen and Yoshi.

[neatoman]

So yeah, good episode. Just a couple of nitpicks.


How come Shredder didn't recognise the Turtles back in season 1 if the timeline was always this way?
Why didn't they show Shredder learning of his heiritage?
Why did those ninjas join the foot so quickly?
Did Mikey really have to act so goofy in this episode? I know he's typically very goofy, but I think they should have toned him down here.


Also, is it just me or does some events as shown here put some of Splinter's previous statements into question? I can remember Splinter having said something like "she was never yours" in regards to Shredder having been with Tang Shen, but here Tang Shen does not deny having been with Shredder.

[CyberCubed]

Very good episode, but the 4kids version "Tale of Master Yoshi" had a lot more darker and emotional themes.

But this one was great too. Surprised Shredder getting burned happened so quickly and easily, I imagined him being burned in the fire for a while.

[OrangeNinja1987]

Beautiful episode! It played out pretty much exactly as I imagined, and it was perfect! I feel like I need to put an exclamation point on every sentence!
First off, I really loved this backstory on Saki/Yoshi/Shen, and how it was made a lot more complex than previous tellings in the show. The final fight was intense and very well done. Oddly, Shredder didn't feel like a very bad guy until the last few minutes. Great accomplishment showing his side a bit more.
I loved that it was explained that the Hamato clan was the last surviving ninja clan and that they weren't needed any more. I had been feeling that the show sorely needed an explanation for ninja in the 21st century.
Very few problems with this episode, pretty much only that Shredder's voice seemed off. I expected that some of his voice's deep resoundingness (is that a word?) came from the echoes inside his metal helmet, or perhaps from injuries from the fire. I wish they'd altered his voice so that he sounded
more like a normal human before. I think he probably got his American accent and fluency in English from travel, because he seems to know his way around NYC well for someone, who in the show's timeline, has only lived there about a year.
Loved baby Miwa tugging on Leo's bandana.
My absolute favorite part was when the turtles were pretending to be kappa. The creepy vibe and the visuals in that scene were probably some of the best I've ever seen in the show. The best line of the episode was Leo saying "We will suck out your souls...through your BUTT!"
By the way, that is really part of Japanese mythology. The writers must have done their research.
I'm just confused as to why everyone spoke English most of the episode. In Japan, it is not a skill everyone has to speak fluent English, because it is not taught well or often enough. Whenever the Japanese characters spoke English when they weren't around the turtles, I always imagined they were speaking Japanese. I have a feeling the turtles know at least enough Japanese from Splinter. I really want to see them speak it more.
My rating: 9.5/10

[Vicky82]

So yeah, good episode. Just a couple of nitpicks.


How come Shredder didn't recognise the Turtles back in season 1 if the timeline was always this way?
Why didn't they show Shredder learning of his heiritage?
Why did those ninjas join the foot so quickly?
Did Mikey really have to act so goofy in this episode? I know he's typically very goofy, but I think they should have toned him down here.


Also, is it just me or does some events as shown here put some of Splinter's previous statements into question? I can remember Splinter having said something like "she was never yours" in regards to Shredder having been with Tang Shen, but here Tang Shen does not deny having been with Shredder.

1. The turtles were wearing costumes when he first sees them, and the 2nd and 3rd time it was in the dark so he wouldn't have seen them very well.
2. Probably cut due to timing.
3. Unsure
4. Mikey was acting goofy in the 1st half of the episode, they had to put some laughs in for a dark episode. He did tone down and got serious later when the dojo was burning down, Tang Shen dieing and when they silently left when Splinter was screaming out.

[CyberCubed]

I'm surprised they didn't explain how Yoshi got the "Splinter" nickname. In this version he was called Splinter before the Turtles met him, so I guess it was just some old nickname Saki used to call him?

[TurtleTitan97]

Man, this episode gave me so many feels. Best one of the series by far.

[tmntfanuk]

Awesome episode! One of the very best in a long, long time.

I wanted more. A two-parter would have been epic!

[CyberCubed]

Anyone think its odd the Turtles just left Shen's body in the building to burn? The least they could have done is dragged her body out next to Yoshi.

[Vicky82]

Anyone think its odd the Turtles just left Shen's body in the building to burn? The least they could have done is dragged her body out next to Yoshi.

They probably did bring her out but done off screen, this episode was pretty dark anyway and Peter Di Cicco said that stuff was cut out due to timing and being too dark.

[PangolinFeets]

I'm just confused as to why everyone spoke English most of the episode. In Japan, it is not a skill everyone has to speak fluent English, because it is not taught well or often enough. Whenever the Japanese characters spoke English when they weren't around the turtles, I always imagined they were speaking Japanese. I have a feeling the turtles know at least enough Japanese from Splinter. I really want to see them speak it more.
My rating: 9.5/10

They don't want to put in more subtitles than necessary (Or hire VAs fluent in Japanese). I'm sure a large part of the viewer base are kids with varying levels of limited reading skills and they're not about to exclude them for accuracy. Besides, I can imagine watching our current group of VAs straining to pronounce big chunks of Japanese dialogue accurately would be painful...and would likely slow down the snails-pace that the episodes are being produced at.

I'm convinced they speak Japanese fine. I don't need it illustrated.

[Toadtrooper]

"Show, don't tell" only applies to things that actually need to be shown.

Instead, we get 22 minutes of exposition to set up one time-travel convenience that doesn't make sense. Yeah, they're trying to say the Turtles saved Hamato Yoshi, but who did they displace? It refuses to answer how Hamato was saved before the Turtles even existed.

Because if the answer is some vague, mythical Yokai, then this episode never needed to happen, and it was just a way to spend 22 more minutes on something we already know. With a weird, unnecessary twist. Or basically Into The Woods: TMNT Edition.

Hall of Shame goes to Tang Shen, who not only left a helpless baby on the ground to run into a burning building, but ran in front of an angry man with a deadly weapon. Not heroic. Stupid. Between her and ditsy Renet, writer fails at writing women. I'm assuming it's just Randolph Heard. He's really nothing to write home about.

And Ciro can fangirl about his darker version the same way Trank can fangirl about "his" version of Fantastic Four. I don't care about fangirling when the entire thing deserves to be on the cutting room floor.

[OrangeNinja1987]

They don't want to put in more subtitles than necessary (Or hire VAs fluent in Japanese). I'm sure a large part of the viewer base are kids with varying levels of limited reading skills and they're not about to exclude them for accuracy. Besides, I can imagine watching our current group of VAs straining to pronounce big chunks of Japanese dialogue accurately would be painful...and would likely slow down the snails-pace that the episodes are being produced at.

I'm convinced they speak Japanese fine. I don't need it illustrated.

oh, I know why they spoke English the entire episode. It wouldn't be practical on any level. But for a higher level of believability, I just wish it had a bit more Japanese, and the turtles speaking some. I'm trying to learn the language so it would have been cool to hear it a bit more. The English didn't ruin anything for me and it was necessary, though.

[TurtleTitan97]

And Ciro can fangirl about his darker version the same way Trank can fangirl about "his" version of Fantastic Four. I don't care about fangirling when the entire thing deserves to be on the cutting room floor.

Are you seriously comparing this AMAZING episode to that sorry excuse for a movie? :tconfuse: That's just unbelievable.

[Vicky82]

"Show, don't tell" only applies to things that actually need to be shown.

Instead, we get 22 minutes of exposition to set up one time-travel convenience that doesn't make sense. Yeah, they're trying to say the Turtles saved Hamato Yoshi, but who did they displace? It refuses to answer how Hamato was saved before the Turtles even existed.


I bet you didn't watch Gargoyles did you, they had a couple of episodes that focused on Time Travel. 1 character was shown falling to his death but was saved by his future self but that character had to do the same thing so it goes in a loop. Also there was another episode similar to that. You need to watch them the episodes are Avalon part 1 to 3 and M.I.A. There was also the episode Vows.

[JTH]

Instead, we get 22 minutes of exposition to set up one time-travel convenience that doesn't make sense. Yeah, they're trying to say the Turtles saved Hamato Yoshi, but who did they displace? It refuses to answer how Hamato was saved before the Turtles even existed.
Don't you get it?

They didn't displace anybody. It was always them, that was the whole point.

Donatello even stated during the episode that there had to be some reason why of all times and places, why then and there. Because it was always them who saved Splinter that day.

They didn't take over the role of anybody else, it was always them. That was made that very clear at the end. They learned what happened based on what they were told by Splinter in the past, then being they ended up there, to perserve their own present, everything had to happen again, and they couldn't interfere with what happened based on what they knew.

[Raph's Girl]

This ep was awesome!! I love that they actually acknowledge Teng Shen's Chinese heritage (her grandfather). Also we got to meet Yoshi's father, Hamato Yotai and learned Saki's father's name as well, Kaiji.

Karai looks alot like her mom.

Also, One min Leo's like "WTF is a Kappa" and next min seems to know about the Kappa sucking the soul's of people via their butt's (actually that's the NICE way of saying it).

[Powder]

So something got cut. :o

My guess is Shredder killing his adoptive father.

[CyberCubed]

Because if the answer is some vague, mythical Yokai, then this episode never needed to happen, and it was just a way to spend 22 more minutes on something we already know. With a weird, unnecessary twist. Or basically Into The Woods: TMNT Edition.

Who didn't want to see an episode with Saki and Yoshi in the past?

Hall of Shame goes to Tang Shen, who not only left a helpless baby on the ground to run into a burning building, but ran in front of an angry man with a deadly weapon. Not heroic. Stupid. Between her and ditsy Renet, writer fails at writing women. I'm assuming it's just Randolph Heard. He's really nothing to write home about.


LOL, now I know you're trolling. You're wondering why Shen left a baby on the ground? You expected her to run into a burning building with a baby in her arms? What kind of logic are you working on?

And of course she's going to run inbetween Shredder and Yoshi, what else is she going to do? Also laughably claiming the writers aren't writing women well when Tang Shen and Renet are exactly the same way in Mirage is idiotic. Tang Shen's fate is to die, Renet has always been a ditzy bimbo.

There always has to be that "one guy" who craps over something for no reason.

[909 Turtle Fan]

Sweet episode, I like cucumber with lemon and tajin. It was cool how there was no music during the fight between Yoshi and Saki until it the end, the music is one of my favorite parts of this show. Great voice acting in this one too. I wish they would still do previews for the next weeks episode, it feels off when they don't. Oh yeah, funny ish when Leo says we'll steal your souls through your butt :tlol:

[Toadtrooper]

The only show that's ever done time travel convincingly was Misfits. First, they explained the time travel as a one-time-use, acquired, and subjective power, not a scientific possibility to be reused over and over whenever convenient.

Then they had characters written well enough to make the entire thing both believable and tragic.


Without the Turtles meeting the Yokai that saved Hamato the first time, the episode is pointless. It never justifies why the Turtles being there is important.

If Oroku Saki had straight-up murdered the original Yokai and the Turtles had to intervene to preserve the original event, then you have a story to work with. And if that's what the network prevented from happening, then the whole episode should have been shelved and never released.

So, yes, not quite unlike Fantastic Four.

[PangolinFeets]

Instead, we get 22 minutes of exposition to set up one time-travel convenience that doesn't make sense. Yeah, they're trying to say the Turtles saved Hamato Yoshi, but who did they displace? It refuses to answer how Hamato was saved before the Turtles even existed.


I guess you've never heard of a Bootstrap Paradox.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causation-backwards/#3.1

[aliena]

It's a relief to get two great episodes in a row. The thing I wanted the most to happen I got. Leo holding Karai was so sweet. I liked it when Mikey saved them with a smoke bomb and then told us he saved them. That had to be a wink directed to us by the writers. Mikey eating the cucumbers was really cute. I wonder if he'll keep eating them in the present.

I did wish they could have taken Karai away from Shredder, but who is to say that she would be the same person she was in the present if she had been raised by Splinter?

And lastly, will we really ever see Renet again? That's not much of a love interest for Mikey if he only has her for 1 episode.

[Toadtrooper]

I guess you've never heard of a Bootstrap Paradox.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causation-backwards/#3.1

The mythology present in the episode existed before the Turtles arrived, so they didn't create the Yokai. It would only be a Bootstrap Paradox if the Turtles introduced the mythology.



LOL, now I know you're trolling. You're wondering why Shen left a baby on the ground? You expected her to run into a burning building with a baby in her arms? What kind of logic are you working on?

And of course she's going to run inbetween Shredder and Yoshi, what else is she going to do?

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

[Powder]

https://blueollie.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/triggered.jpg?w=320&h=371

[DarkLightDragon]

Hall of Shame goes to Tang Shen, who not only left a helpless baby on the ground to run into a burning building, but ran in front of an angry man with a deadly weapon. Not heroic. Stupid. Between her and ditsy Renet, writer fails at writing women. I'm assuming it's just Randolph Heard. He's really nothing to write home about.



Thank you. I was just about going to mention that and it's a shame too since it really cheapens the emotional and dramatic atmosphere the climax had with me.

Like, honey, getting your infant child to safety should have been your first priority, not trying to settle a dispute between your husband and his rival. I get you might feel bad that you're the reason why they're fighting, but there is nothing you could say or do to make them stop.

But no, history dictates she must die. It's just too bad it had to be more stupid on her part than it should've been.

I mean don't get me wrong, I still liked this episode a lot, but honestly, Tang Shen just ditching her baby to go into a burning building when maternal instincts should've just told her to high-tail it and fast kinda killed it.

Ah well, I'm ready for next episode either way.

[JTH]

Without the Turtles meeting the Yokai that saved Hamato the first time, the episode is pointless. It never justifies why the Turtles being there is important.

If Oroku Saki had straight-up murdered the original Yokai and the Turtles had to intervene to preserve the original event, then you have a story to work with. And if that's what the network prevented from happening, then the whole episode should have been shelved and never released.
Okay, it's clear now that the whole premise went completely over your head.

"Without the Turtles meeting the Yokai that saved Hamato the first time, the episode is pointless. It never justifies why the Turtles being there is important." - It justifies them being there important because it was them that saved Yoshi all along. That's the thing I don't think you're getting. The turtles didn't go back in time to witness history play out, they were a part of the history that played out.

Remember what Donnie said at the end: "Well, it looks like history is back to normal, but how could history be back to normal if...*GASP*...unless this was always meant to happen."

Meaning they didn't understand how their meddling in the past corrected the timeline, until they realized they were always part of the timeline.

[Autbot_Benz]

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

Quickly call the Feminists and SJW's :roll:

[PangolinFeets]

The mythology present in the episode existed before the Turtles arrived, so they didn't create the Yokai. It would only be a Bootstrap Paradox if the Turtles introduced the mythology.



Moot point. You said:
who did they displace? It refuses to answer how Hamato was saved before the Turtles even existed.

The turtles save Hamato. They're not displacing anyone. They were always the ones who saved Hamato.

[Toadtrooper]

Meaning they didn't understand how their meddling in the past corrected the timeline, until they realized they were always part of the timeline.

Except they weren't, because Hamato still had to go to NYC and buy the Turtles or else they wouldn't exist to go back in time. So Hamato still had to be saved by something the first time that was not the Turtles.

To use PangolinFeets' article in a way he didn't intend:

"The idea of backward causation should not be confused with that of time travel. These two notions are related to the extent that both agree that it is possible to causally affect the past. The difference, however, is that time travel involves a causal loop whereas backward causation does not.

[TurtleTitan97]

Except they weren't, because Hamato still had to go to NYC and buy the Turtles or else they wouldn't exist to go back in time. So Hamato still had to be saved by something the first time that was not the Turtles.



No it doesn't. It's like Renet explained, the Turtles were always meant to travel back in time to save Splinter.

Fixed timeline, dude. Nuff' said. If they didn't show up, Splinter would have died in that fire. Simple as that.

[neatoman]

So now that I have let everything sink in, I like the episode but I'm not crazy about it.

I think a big reason for that is that I have already enjoyed a much more intereting expansion of Shredder's origin, The Secret History of the Foot Clan.
SHotFC does have many similar ideas to this episode but sheds more light on the backstory instead of mostly just being stuff we already knew, it ties into the story much better as a result. It also had the advantage not being as restricted as a kid' show must be, an example being that it actually showed Shredder murder his father.

[TurFlytle]

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

By the time she would have called the authorities, the house would have burnt down and more lives would have been lost. This was in the 90's not the 2000's. Cellphones weren't even a thing then, there were no phones nearby. Get your facts straight. I'd like to see you trying fitting a plot into a 22 1/2 minute episode. Plus, Tang Shen was involved in the creation of the turtles in most of the versions. She died in every incarnation that she appeared in.

[IndigoErth]

Really kinda like this one. Nice fight scenes and the souls... though your butt...? :teek::tlol: wow. Funny coming from Leo though. lol But Mikey with the supposed cucumber in that same scene was a bit disturbing though... o.O That just... yeah.

Fave part though was Leo holding baby Karai who's tugging on his mask tails; that's right up there in adorableness with the tea party. :D :tlove:

Seriously though... it might have been Tang Shen's fate to die during the incident - but the Turtles... why did no one take and hide the baby?? *sigh* Was rather expecting them to when they heard her.

Sure it's messing with the past, but keeping Karai with her father doesn't necessarily change his decision to move to NYC and buy pets on that fateful day. But it could have played into other episodes and be the "cure" to save Karai from what's become of her. Ah well... :ohwell:

That paradox though. >.< Ow...

[CyberCubed]

She could have called the local authorities, as it's established they live in a developed area and not in the middle of nowhere. It's not a heroic action, but it's an intelligent one. But, hey, if you want dumb male writers to keep writing dumb females as plot devices, then by all means, keep supporting the cause instead of expecting better in 2015.

She had time to call the authorities when the place was on fire and she knew they were fighting to the death? She left her baby right outside, not in the middle of the wilderness.

Your feminist rant is absurd. More like YOU don't know what a good written female character is.

[MrTMNT2012]

Very nice twist on the whole "Tale of Hamato Yoshi" storyline.

This is the kinda episode that reminds you why Kevin Eastmen called this the best version of the Ninja Turtles! :)

[Powder]

The scene where the embraced the turtles whole kappa/yokai thing & terrorized Shredder's ninjas may be my all time favorite moment in this show's history. :tlol: It was just ridiculously badass & hilarious, a perfect combination. Their maniacal laughter, the flames, their heavily shadowed forms with white eyes, sooooooooooo cool...

[Toadtrooper]

Your feminist rant is absurd. More like YOU don't know what a good written female character is.

Well-written, but whatever. :)


This was in the 90's not the 2000's. Cellphones weren't even a thing then, there were no phones nearby.

Since we're already making up stupid time rules, Donatello's T-phone could probably link to an existing network and dial an operator, completely removing Tang Shen from danger.

But, no, use the only real deus ex machina in the episode to show a picture that wouldn't exist either time that history was rewritten.

[TurtleTitan97]

Since we're already making up stupid time rules, Donatello's T-phone could probably link to an existing network and dial an operator, completely removing Tang Shen from danger.



You do realize that if he even did that he'd be tampering with history even further, right?

[CyberCubed]

Why are you so angry? Its a classic time travel paradox. You seem hotly bothered.

[IndigoErth]

(Ok, bunch of posts submitted since started writing this, but whatever, not wasting all that thought so just hitting submit... :trazz:)

Not worth arguing about... it already was, and generally is, the background history and was going to remain the history. People make split second decisions, sometimes they aren't for the best. Clearly the action that seemed most urgent to her in that moment was trying to help her husband. Urgent enough that other help would never be there soon enough. Yes, she left her child alone, but she didn't have any reason to believe anyone would run off the baby, who she left at a safe distance because there was no other choice. Even if Saki was fighting with Yoshi, given her recent interactions with Saki, she had no reason to think that he'd take her child. (Besides, if the kindly Yokai were around maybe she thought her child would be guarded.)

Of course... weirdly, if Saki was under the impression that Yoshi also died...it's not necessarily ill intentioned to take the child with him if she was laying there alone and orphaned. It would be more cruel to leave her there. Though he should have sought out the child's other blood relatives instead since he knew the truth. Selfishly held on to that connection to Tang Shen, but probably(?) not intended badly or meant to be held against anyone...until he found out he could years later.

It's history and was going to remain history no matter if her choices were wise or not. No "feminist rants" or accusations of it necessary. And honestly not sure if too many guys should argue what a well written female character is or isn't.

[Ninjinister]

Without the Turtles meeting the Yokai that saved Hamato the first time, the episode is pointless. It never justifies why the Turtles being there is important.

TMNT has used the predestination paradox for almost 30 years, yo. Why do you just now have beef with it?

The Turtles were the original "Yokai" who saved Yoshi. They always were. Period. Just like Raphael was always the inspiration for the founding of the Foot Clan in Mirage.

Time travel, since it's not proven to be a real thing in the way depicted in fiction, does not have a concise set of rules. You can't apply one work of fiction's restrictions to another's.

[Meliwen]

I really loved this episode. Definitely my favourite season 3 episode.

The yokai turtles were great. I also like how they mention in the legend that yokai brought tragedy with them, and the same thing remained true with the turtles.
Shen was wonderful.
Miwa was adorable.
I liked how Yoshi wasn't portrayed as a perfect character. He was dismissive of his brother, and had a somewhat strained relationship with Shen, but still in the end did his best to make things right.

My only problem with the episode was how quickly Saki went from, "let's go to New York and leave the ninja life behind," to "I want to kill the Hamato clan so I can lead the new Foot Clan." For me it was a little abrupt and I would've liked a little build up to Saki's intention to kill the Hamato clan while apparently going back on what he promised to Shen previously.

[Toadtrooper]

You do realize that if he even did that he'd be tampering with history even further, right?

I was just about to hit on that.

That the Turtles wouldn't sacrifice themselves for their master's happiness seemed... overly selfish. They should have defeated Shredder before Shredder even happened.

Not to mention that since we're making stupid time rules, Renet could leave this timeline where Splinter lives happily ever after with Tang Shen, but return the Turtles to an alternate where none of this actually happened. Because, stupid time rules.


Why are you so angry? Its a classic time travel paradox. You seem hotly bothered.

Except it's not, as I quoted before. Time travel involves a causal loop where a paradox does not. This was time travel. It wasn't a paradox. They're not the same thing, and to pretend they are and make the rules subjective to your plot needs is just poor writing.

[TurtleTitan97]

I was just about to hit on that.

That the Turtles wouldn't sacrifice themselves for their master's happiness seemed... overly selfish. They should have defeated Shredder before Shredder even happened.

Not to mention that since we're making stupid time rules, Renet could leave this timeline where Splinter lives happily ever after with Tang Shen, but return the Turtles to an alternate where none of this actually happened. Because, stupid time rules.


Yeah.....I can't say I like that idea at all.

Time Travel in this episode was pretty much similar to what was shown in Back to the Future. Had the events you described actually happened, the Turtles would eventually fade away from existence, because the future and reality they're from wouldn't even exist anymore. Plus I'm pretty sure Renet isn't skilled enough at all to actually accomplish what you described, even with the scepter.

But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Ninturtle]

I was just about to hit on that.

That the Turtles wouldn't sacrifice themselves for their master's happiness seemed... overly selfish. They should have defeated Shredder before Shredder even happened.


Then who would save the world from the Kraang. They needed to keep the present the same because they save the world from the Kraang.

[drgon78]

Good episode and great back to the future reference.

[Toadtrooper]

Time travel, since it's not proven to be a real thing in the way depicted in fiction, does not have a concise set of rules.

Time travel is impossible to prove, because of displacement. Going even an hour into the future could displace you somewhere between a thousand and a million miles from your point of origin.

It's possible somebody already tried time travel and is now floating dead out in space. That's why I always roll my eyes at time travel stories, especially ones that make it sound like a scientific relationship between static objects.

But everything's moving.

[JTH]

That's why I always roll my eyes at time travel stories, especially ones that make it sound like a scientific relationship between static objects.

But everything's moving.
Why did it take you 6 posts before you finally got around to saying "I don't like time travel arcs. They're stupid to me."

We wouldn't have wasted our times trying to explain something you don't even care about. :roll:

Just because you're not a fan of a plot device doesn't mean you should state that a network should scrap an episode premise based on something you could care less about.

[TigerClaw]

I'm surprise that they didn't show a preview for the next episode, after it ended it showed another cartoon right away.

I hate when they do that, the episodes ends and they don't bother showing the credits, They just go to the next cartoon after.

[VaughnMichael]

I have to wonder if anything in present day got changed because of the turtles besides what was always meant to be.

[Unworthy tinker]

Loved this episode. Leo holding baby Miwa was just d'aww. The whole scene where they pretended to be Kappa was awesome and hilarious. Then...I didn't cry, but the feels. Farewell Tang Shen.:cry:

Would've been nice to see Saki become Shredder, but they do have to fit it into twenty two minutes, so I guess they get a pass. :ohwell:

[victory_angel]

I bet you didn't watch Gargoyles did you, they had a couple of episodes that focused on Time Travel. 1 character was shown falling to his death but was saved by his future self but that character had to do the same thing so it goes in a loop. Also there was another episode similar to that. You need to watch them the episodes are Avalon part 1 to 3 and M.I.A. There was also the episode Vows.

And there was going to be a spin off story line called Time Dancer where Brooklyn is sent tumbling 40 years through time and space. So we see some of the of the things that happened in the show were caused by him because they had to happen. And all this is set up by Goliath throwing the Phoenix Gate into to the Time Stream.

[Toadtrooper]

Just because you're not a fan of a plot device doesn't mean you should state that a network should scrap an episode premise based on something you could care less about.

Except, like I said, I like the Misfits one. It was presented as a one-time power, not a science.

I'll spoil it for everyone.

Couple. Female character dies in male character's arms. Male character buys a power that can send him back in time - once - before they were a couple. Male character only reveals himself to his male counterpart when he's killed. Then his counterpart continue the relationship up until the female character dies in his arms again and he's forced to repeat the entire thing for eternity.

Because he's never told how to end it.

That's a causal loop inside a time travel.

The show did the bootstrap paradox for the series finale, where a character receives a text message from her future self telling her not to sleep with the bad guy.

I hated that so much. The paradox is lazy and a sign of a careless writer who would rather do random stuff than actually make sense.

[IndigoErth]

Not to mention that since we're making stupid time rules, Renet could leave this timeline where Splinter lives happily ever after with Tang Shen, but return the Turtles to an alternate where none of this actually happened. Because, stupid time rules.
But with other alternate versions there could already be one where they live happily ever after...and then NYC and the world are taken over and destroyed by the Kraang because the Turtles aren't there (and why it wasn't selfish of them, becasue they probably know Splinter would not want them to sacrifice themselves and the world in exchange for his happiness, even if it would be hard to say no). An alternate version does not belong to them and shouldn't be messed with by them.

[victory_angel]

(Ok, bunch of posts submitted since started writing this, but whatever, not wasting all that thought so just hitting submit... :trazz:)

Not worth arguing about... it already was, and generally is, the background history and was going to remain the history. People make split second decisions, sometimes they aren't for the best. Clearly the action that seemed most urgent to her in that moment was trying to help her husband. Urgent enough that other help would never be there soon enough. Yes, she left her child alone, but she didn't have any reason to believe anyone would run off the baby, who she left at a safe distance because there was no other choice. Even if Saki was fighting with Yoshi, given her recent interactions with Saki, she had no reason to think that he'd take her child. (Besides, if the kindly Yokai were around maybe she thought her child would be guarded.)

Of course... weirdly, if Saki was under the impression that Yoshi also died...it's not necessarily ill intentioned to take the child with him if she was laying there alone and orphaned. It would be more cruel to leave her there. Though he should have sought out the child's other blood relatives instead since he knew the truth. Selfishly held on to that connection to Tang Shen, but probably(?) not intended badly or meant to be held against anyone...until he found out he could years later.

It's history and was going to remain history no matter if her choices were wise or not. No "feminist rants" or accusations of it necessary. And honestly not sure if too many guys should argue what a well written female character is or isn't.

He took Karai because she could be raised as an heir to the Foot Clan. So in a way she was several things to him, the last piece of the woman he loved, a puppet her can mold into a weapon, a trophy, and a means to prolong the survival of the Foot Clan.

[victory_angel]

I was just about to hit on that.

That the Turtles wouldn't sacrifice themselves for their master's happiness seemed... overly selfish. They should have defeated Shredder before Shredder even happened.



But if the Turtles sacrifice their very existence so that Splinter may live. They are dooming the world to the Kraang, because they wouldn't be in the future to stop the invasion from taking place. Thus leaving people like April, Casey, and everyone else they know and love to suffer and die at the tentacles of Kraang Prime.

Even if Yoshi did get Miwa and get four turtles. He says he sensed something was off when that one Kraang Droid bumped into him. He wouldn't have followed him if Miwa was around.

[Luckyday]

He took Karai because she could be raised as an heir to the Foot Clan. So in a way she was several things to him, the last piece of the woman he loved, a puppet her can mold into a weapon, a trophy, and a means to prolong the survival of the Foot Clan.

Do you think it was also because he seen little of himself in Karai and felt some empathy for her since he had been in her position? Orphan of rival clan or maybe part of it was his idea of karmic payback from being lied and reared by his true sworn enemies of his real clan.

[THGhost]

Removed my post, huh? Geez, I was only asking where I could watch this episode. Not all of us live in the US y'know. :roll:

Anyway, I finally found this episode in HD and here are my thoughts:


No, not the beard!
Man, Oroku Saki looks a lot less intimidating without his armour.
So it's not Splinter's father, it's Hamato Yoshi himself. I knew it.
Still mispronouncing Renet's name, huh?
Mini Karai ^_^
Cannot. Resist. Mikey's cute eyes!
Wouldn't it be a good idea for all of the Turtles to have smoke bombs, not just Mikey?
Casey disappearing from the photograph. Why are things so heavy in the future? Or past, in this case.
Karai tugging on Leo's bandanna tugged at my heart strings. :embarass:
If someone threw cucumbers at me, I'd run away too.
Don't tell her that, Raph. She'll obviously choose Saki over Yoshi.
"Through your butt"? Really?
What? No blood? Oh, yeah. Nickelodeon. :P
Donnie literally vanished into the shadows. Very jarring CGI error.
Lets hope Splinter is actually at home waiting for them and hasn't been kidnapped while they were gone.


The scene where the embraced the turtles whole kappa/yokai thing & terrorized Shredder's ninjas may be my all time favorite moment in this show's history. :tlol: It was just ridiculously badass & hilarious, a perfect combination. Their maniacal laughter, the flames, their heavily shadowed forms with white eyes, sooooooooooo cool...

Agreed, that was pretty awesome. :lol:


Quite possibly my favourite image from this episode:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/THGhost/tmntfire.jpg

I love when they get all serious. :tcool:

[Cure]

Removed my post, huh? Geez, I was only asking where I could watch this episode. Not all of us live in the US y'know. :roll:



It can get the forums in trouble! Holy Hell, like, does no one care about things like that?

Anyway, this episode was pretty good. I liked it a lot, especially when the turtles go all ninja ninja. Those are my favorite moments.

[CyberCubed]

Loved the Yokai scenes. Amazing.

[TurtleTitan97]

We totally need some gifs of that Yokai scene ASAP.

[THGhost]

It can get the forums in trouble! Holy Hell, like, does no one care about things like that?

The forums really need to rethink some of its rules. That's never stopped people from PM'ing me links in the past. I'll just wait longer in future for HD links. :P

[Cure]

"Avoiding lawasuits" is a rule that will never change. Are you dense? Do you not get that? Common sense, man.

[THGhost]

You kiss your mother with that mouth? :P People still sent me links, so so much for that. Nothing wrong with helping non-US fans out. Now that's common sense.

This episode made me think of this:

"Kappa? Cappuccino? Nah, makes me hyper."

I'm so sorry. :lol:

[Cure]

Hardly. :P Nothing wrong with helping non-US fans out.



There is when IT CAN GET KRANG IN TROUBLE AND ILLEGAL. But you're not getting it.

[Leofan26]

It was a pretty good episode over all, my favorite part was Leo holding Karai, awe so cute :(

That ending, I was hoping Leo went back for her but they needed more help to rescue Splinter.

We should be getting a clip for next weeks episode tommarow guy's :D

[CyberCubed]

Tang Shen had already had sex with Yoshi and gotten pregnant with his child, and she was still unsure if she wanted to stay with him over Saki? Seems weird, Miwa looked to be only a few months old there...what woman considers leaving a guy right after having a kid?

[THGhost]

There is when IT CAN GET KRANG IN TROUBLE AND ILLEGAL. But you're not getting it.

http://media0.giphy.com/media/bXMaFfH9k32Qo/giphy.gif

Oh I get it alright. Except the rules state no links to downloads, not streams. Which is what I was asking for. There is a difference. If that's not allowed either then the rules should be more specific.

I'll just lurk in the shadows and wait a little longer for HD streams in future. That's what I do normally, but I was really eager to watch this episode sooner. :P

It was a pretty good episode over all, my favorite part was Leo holding Karai, awe so cute :(

And when she was tugging on Leo's bandanna. :D

Tang Shen had already had sex with Yoshi and gotten pregnant with his child, and she was still unsure if she wanted to stay with him over Saki? Seems weird, Miwa looked to be only a few months old there...what woman considers leaving a guy right after having a kid?

I wondered about that too. Kind of a dick move.

[IndigoErth]

my favorite part was Leo holding Karai, awe so cute :(
Mine too. Probably kinda good for the soul for him as well; after the grief and stress he's been through with wanting to get her back where she belongs with her real father, all that's happened, and now not knowing if they'll ever be able to help her.

[THGhost]

Mine too. Probably kinda good for the soul for him as well; after the grief and stress he's been through with wanting to get her back where he belongs with her real father, all that's happened, and now not knowing if they'll ever be able to help her.

And now I want to cry. :P

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Loved this episode. It was just he right amount of tragic, the time-travel paradox stuff was done well, and Tang Shen was a wonderful character. That's how you do a strong and well-rounded female character. I liked that she was torn between the two, though I can't help wondering what Saki did that made her choose Yoshi over him. The Yokai stuff was great! And Miaw with Leo- awww!! So cute. And I foresee Mikey putting cucumbers on his pizzas in the future.....

[Electric]

great episode. kinda strange.

They basically had to help Tang Shen get murdered in order to save the world from the Kraang. which im glad they brough up, because at first i thought "the turtles could sacrafice themselves in the future to save tang shen and kill shredder now," but then, right, they couldnt.

Leo holding karai was adorable. Just wish they held the scene of leo looking down at karai as tang shen ran inside a little longer. like him contemplating atleast saving her from shredder. whether he gave her to yoshi, or just to some loving family in japan, to save her from her life and the pain it will cause splinter

[Bitsy83]

Tang Shen had already had sex with Yoshi and gotten pregnant with his child, and she was still unsure if she wanted to stay with him over Saki? Seems weird, Miwa looked to be only a few months old there...what woman considers leaving a guy right after having a kid?

.....You have WAY to much faith in people, buddy.

Not to sound like a morbid cynic, but how could a girl throw her baby in a dumpster after giving birth to it? How could parents beat their children with fists? How could some people lie, abuse, and murder innocent people?

Again, these people are far and few in between, but it's not that unheard of. Cruel, despicable, and terrible thoughts and ideas occur in all people, including the "good ones." Tang Shen may have been tempted because she was concerned for her daughter's safety and from the sound of it, she and Saki had a past. Maybe she did have second thoughts about being with Yoshi, but knew deep down that he was the right man for her and Saki wasn't. In the end, she made the right choice, despite it costing her her life.

Answers and feelings aren't always as black-and-white as most people assume.

[Bitsy83]

Finally saw it! Man, that was intense! Great actions and plot, but I got to admit, it did sort of mess with the original origin. In the pilot and many flashbacks leading up to it, there were moments when they changed details. Like wasn't there a shot of Splinter in the rubble and he's reaching out to Saki as he's walking away with Karai? (Sorry, Miwa?) Still, I guess the writer's weren't sure how they were going to do a time-travel episode at the time or if they were even going to be on the air this long, so I guess they overlooked it.

I know a lot of people are complaining about "Why didn't Leo look for Miwa and save her?," despite them constantly saying how messing with history would ruin the future (Time Travel 101, people...). You're right, that would've been a heart-wrenching moment. Buuuuuuut, what if Karai met Renet in a future episode? What if she learns of the time traveling thing and decides to change history herself? Leo sees this, tries to stop her and they both get thrown into the past where Karai creates some sort of paradox? Either that, or she prevents her mother from being killed or herself raised by Shredder, and when she and Leo return to the future, it's run by the Kraang? Throughout the course of the episode, Leo is slowly fading away and Karai has to try to fix whatever it was she broke.

Or something like that, I dunno. I'm pretty certain we may get a SAINW ep, but I don't think it'll have Donnie going to the Future. You know how these guys LOVE to put their own spin on things.

BTW, since we're all talking about Leo holding baby Miwa, does anyone have a pic of the original movie Leo holding a baby? I think it was a baby born during the production and they did a shot of Leo holding her/him. It is SUPER cute and I'd love to see it again!

[BubblyShell22]

There are alternate dimensions so I'm sure in one of them, Shen is safe and sound with her family. Or maybe there's one where Shen survives while Yoshi is killed.

And, Toad, it wasn't stupid at all. She left Miwa away from the building so she wouldn't get hurt and ran in to save her husband. She didn't want them to kill each other, so she got in between them and begged them to stop, but Saki killed her anyway. It sucks, yeah, but it was always meant to happen and Yoshi was supposed to survive. Shen didn't think Miwa would be taken and probably figured the Yokai she met would protect her.

[DarkLightDragon]

I would've liked it a lot better if she didn't get the choice to leave at all. Whether it came from a direct threat from Saki or the all the exits being barred as it was burning. She'd be trapped alongside them and she'd be screwed either way directly or indirectly from their fight.

I'm sorry, but for someone who said she must do what's best for her daughter earlier, and for the episode to do a good job making her a relatable character with her own agendas and goals, forgive me if her decision to just go back to a burning building with the naïve impression that anything she'll say or do with cease their deeply-rooted feud, when maternal instincts she supposedly should have dictated her to just go far, far away to protect her daughter, strikes me as very questionable.

Yes, yes, I know, "she's practically destined to die just so we get Yoshi leaving for NY and Saki gets Miwa" but that's not what I'm talking about. I take issue with it unneedlessly lacking common sense for a character we've already seen have enough common sense prior. If she weren't simply given the chance or choice to just leave but come back anyway, then I'd have no problems.

[ssjup81]

Don't you get it?

They didn't displace anybody. It was always them, that was the whole point.

Donatello even stated during the episode that there had to be some reason why of all times and places, why then and there. Because it was always them who saved Splinter that day.

They didn't take over the role of anybody else, it was always them. That was made that very clear at the end. They learned what happened based on what they were told by Splinter in the past, then being they ended up there, to perserve their own present, everything had to happen again, and they couldn't interfere with what happened based on what they knew.
Yeah. Had some Back to the Future elements too..

This also reminded me of the third Harry Potter book where Harry, Sirius, and Hermione were saved from the Dementors. Harry thought it was his father (somehow) when it turned out that it was Harry all along.

[RandomtasticFantasy]

Tang Shen had already had sex with Yoshi and gotten pregnant with his child, and she was still unsure if she wanted to stay with him over Saki? Seems weird, Miwa looked to be only a few months old there...what woman considers leaving a guy right after having a kid?

Was going to touch on this/bring this up. She and Yoshi seem more flawed than the story made them seem at first. And Saki actually had reason to believe she may in fact like him and have his resentment against Yoshi. He's not the delusional, one-note villain I thought he was.

[_Fedor_]

It's a powerful episode! All done correctly, qualitatively. I saw that the authors have not retained their strength! How nice watch for the seriousness of what is happening and how built future story! So, I am impressed

[GoldenFlither]

Oh my goodness, what an amazing episode. Exceeded my expectations, which were pretty high to begin with. Broken-hearted at the end.

A quick kudos to explaining Tang Shen's Chinese name.

[Commenter 42]

Tang Shen had already had sex with Yoshi and gotten pregnant with his child, and she was still unsure if she wanted to stay with him over Saki? Seems weird, Miwa looked to be only a few months old there...what woman considers leaving a guy right after having a kid?

Lot's, actually. Post pardem is a real thing.

Also, if your spouse spent all their time playing Ninja with a group of men in the woods, you might be worried about your future too.

Did't love this episode, didn't even like it. Saki was so sympathetic the heroes seemed like dicks. Yoshi was a douche, and the turtles were only interested in saving themselves. Should have had more time, two maybe three episodes. Felt like cliff notes.

It's funny, seems like if Saki had a good therapist, everything would be fine.

Really softened up the Mirage version of events.

[Meliwen]

Saki was so sympathetic the heroes seemed like dicks.
I think that's what makes a compelling villain, when we can feel sympathy for them. There's a reason for their actions beyond simply being evil for the sake of evil. Saki lost his original family, grew up with their murderers, his brother wasn't always the most supportive and he lost the woman he loved. I was surprised at how sympathetic they made him out to be in this episode, at least in the beginning.

Yoshi was a douche,
Yoshi was a douche in the beginning, and I thought it was nice to see him not portrayed as perfect. The perfect husband, the perfect brother, the perfect son, etc. I feel his better nature won out in the end though, when he was ready to work things out with Shen, and when he realized how his brother truly felt, he didn't want to hurt him unless absolutely necessary. I believe in the earlier episodes he mentioned how hotheaded he was when he was younger, and how that helped fuel his rivalry with Saki. So basically good characters doing bad things makes the character more interesting, and that's what I liked here.

and the turtles were only interested in saving themselves.
Leo wanted to take out Shredder first thing. Donnie flat out states that if they change things New York would be destroyed. The world would be overrun. They had more things to worry about than just themselves. I don't think at any point they were thinking just of themselves.

Should have had more time, two maybe three episodes. Felt like cliff notes.

It's funny, seems like if Saki had a good therapist, everything would be fine.

Really softened up the Mirage version of events.
I agree with that. It would've been neat to go through this story while taking more time to expand on things. I do wonder what would have happened had their father, or even Yoshi, taken the time to listen to Saki or something. But that just adds to the tragedy factor, I guess.

[IndigoErth]

And Saki actually had reason to believe she may in fact like him and have his resentment against Yoshi.
Not only that, but he said to her in the episode "take me back," so rather than Saki simply being into her and being jealous, it sounds like the two may have been together at some point in their lives.

Pretty sure he also told her that he isn't the man he used to be, so I assumed he must have changed at some point in a way that caused a break up and she later chose to be with Yoshi. And now since I guess Saki later regained some sense - or so he seemed to try to suggest to her - he wanted her back.


It's odd that the meat of TMNT is about the Turtles...but at it's root I guess it's really just about a selfish egomaniac who's mad that he didn't get the girl. :tlol:

Now if he's upset about her death, technically he only has her and himself to blame for that one.

[Powder]

qualitatively

I learned a new word today! :)

That's never happened to me on these forums before. :tlol:

[GoldenFlither]

Wow, I didn't think the comparison would play out so closely! Thought of this as I was watching. :twink:


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/apologize.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/sorry.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/fight.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/fire.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/baby.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/harm.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/eyes.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/fire2.png

[TurtleTitan97]

Wow, I didn't think the comparison would play out so closely! Thought of this as I was watching. :twink:


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/apologize.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/sorry.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/fight.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/fire.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/baby.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/harm.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/eyes.png

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k301/goldenflither/fire2.png



Out of curiosity, where are those other scenes from?

[GoldenFlither]

Out of curiosity, where are those other scenes from?
Mask of Zorro, a movie from the late 90s.

I know it's irrelevant, but I'd been thinking about it since the end of season 1, and then more so after Vengeance is Mine. I thought it was pretty similar to begin with. Now I'm almost convinced it was inspired by it (though not really; I'm sure it's a popular setup). It even has that baby grow up and fall for her real father's student. Kind of cool!

[Commenter 42]

I think that's what makes a compelling villain...

Yes, I'm aware of that...lol, I'm saying if this is the new backstory, then Saki was in the right, and to hell with Yoshi. If I'm suddenly #Teamsaki - perhaps they've taken it to far.

The original is far more compelling. The original could have been teased out, with Shen playing both men against each other, or something of the like, to make it less of a cut and dry scenario.

Long Story short, at the end, Mikey says something like "can't wait to go home and see Splinter"...meh...It felt weird, the whole family are kind of dicks.


Yoshi was a douche in the beginning, and I thought it was nice to see him not portrayed as perfect. The perfect husband, the perfect brother, the perfect son, etc... So basically good characters doing bad things makes the character more interesting, and that's what I liked here.

Oh you guys and your Mary sue blah blah...:lol::lol: Yes, it's not believable when a character is too perfect, but the complexity shouldn't end with just the characters. If you're going to dimensionalize the relationship, there should be something that justifies the heroes motives beyond the fact that he's the turtles papa, so just go with it. In this story the turtles literally screw with Saki's future happiness. I don't know about you, but in my world that's a dick thing to do, especially if Saki ends up being a good man and father in the end, since in the new timeline he would be with the woman he loves.

So now the turtles become instrumental in the cycle of revenge, but they don't reflect on it, or even really acknowledge it, aside from Dons passing remark of "well that just happened"(paraphrased). They don't seem to consider that Saki may have never become the Shredder in the first place. And furthermore, it's not as though the Kraang could ONLY be defeated by the Turtles. In an altered Shredderless timeline, who knows what might have happened. It's too loose, and rushed is all i'm saying, with too many what if's not thought through. It's an awkward homage to Back To The Future spliced with some Kappa lore. Taken separately, these could be all fun elements, but ham fisted together, it felt really disjointed. Like I said, really needed more breathing room.

And above it all, why is Yoshi a good man here? The guy wants to play make believe ninja in the woods, even though his wife is at home with a newborn. Any woman here (who's had kids) think this would be okay with them?

Saki loves her, and would do anything for her. Yoshi wants to wear his pajamas with his friends at night in the clubhouse. Does he have a job? How is he providing for his family? All nonsensical. Things don't exactly add up.

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, the Turtles are responsible for what happened, but in the end, it would have happened anyway. Their job was to save Splinter and that's it, which they did. They knew Shredder was evil and they didn't want Shen with someone like that, so they begged her to make the right choice. And Saki isn't totally blameless since she dated him before and left him which causes me to think he did something pretty bad for her to leave him for Yoshi. Then he goes on about the whole, "I'm a changed man" and then vows revenge on the Hamato clan anyway. So, in the end, he probably still would have killed Yoshi regardless of whether Shen chose him. And even if she had, he still could have killed her. That's my two cents anyway.

[THGhost]

Y'all probably already know this but nobody seems to have mentioned it - Minae Noji, the actress who played Karai in the 2014 movie, was the voice of Tang Shen in this episode. That's pretty freakin' awesome. :tcool:

[Meliwen]

Oh you guys and your Mary sue blah blah... Yes, it's not believable when a character is too perfect, but the complexity shouldn't end with just the characters. If you're going to dimensionalize the relationship, there should be something that justifies the heroes motives beyond the fact that he's the turtles papa, so just go with it. In this story the turtles literally screw with Saki's future happiness. I don't know about you, but in my world that's a dick thing to do, especially if Saki ends up being a good man and father in the end, since in the new timeline he would be with the woman he loves.

So now the turtles become instrumental in the cycle of revenge, but they don't reflect on it, or even really acknowledge it, aside from Dons passing remark of "well that just happened"(paraphrased). They don't seem to consider that Saki may have never become the Shredder in the first place. And furthermore, it's not as though the Kraang could ONLY be defeated by the Turtles. In an altered Shredderless timeline, who knows what might have happened. It's too loose, and rushed is all i'm saying, with too many what if's not thought through. It's an awkward homage to Back To The Future spliced with some Kappa lore. Taken separately, these could be all fun elements, but ham fisted together, it felt really disjointed. Like I said, really needed more breathing room.

And above it all, why is Yoshi a good man here? The guy wants to play make believe ninja in the woods, even though his wife is at home with a newborn. Any woman here (who's had kids) think this would be okay with them?

Saki loves her, and would do anything for her. Yoshi wants to wear his pajamas with his friends at night in the clubhouse. Does he have a job? How is he providing for his family? All nonsensical. Things don't exactly add up.

I see what you're saying now. The turtles effectively punishing Saki for actions he hasn't taken yet wasn't something I noticed as something that was actually a dick move to do, considering we know what he's capable of. Is it a dick move to push Shen purposely away from Saki? Yes. Were they ultimately responsible for that? I don't think so. Shen's choice was her own, she followed her heart.

I don't think the turtles were instrumental in creating the Shredder. The cycle of hatred started the moment Saki found out the truth about his origins. Already in the episode it seemed to me he was becoming overcome by hatred, and that was something that would've come to a head had the turtles given Shen a pep talk or not.

No, Yoshi wasn't doing that great in the beginning, as you said, placing his ninja life ahead of his child and wife. He proclaims his love for Shen at the end of the episode, so, at least for me, there's no reason to think he wouldn't make the right choice. His decisions were between his wife and child, and his dying father and family history, so I think it's a bit unfair to say his other choice was so immature and selfish as partying every night.

Saki turns on his promise towards Shen pretty quickly, so I find it a big if to say that he would be a good father and husband and that he would do anything for her, especially if his plans for the Foot clan were years in the making, in which case he was lying to Shen's face as he made his promise to be there for her. If he made his plans to destroy the Hamato clan after talking with Shen, he's no better than Yoshi for putting the ninja life over Shen and Miwa. He does exactly the thing he knows she doesn't want, to lead a ninja clan, and later raises Miwa in that very way. He makes these decisions before asking her to choose him for that last time, so I don't find his promise to her genuine at all. Yoshi was the better man in the end, and I don't view it as the turtles fault for pushing Saki over the edge. He made that choice himself, and it seems like it was a long time in the making.

And I agree with the bold, especially concerning Saki.

[Mew]

I like the art from The tale of the Kappa!

[TurtleTitan97]

Mask of Zorro, a movie from the late 90s.

I know it's irrelevant, but I'd been thinking about it since the end of season 1, and then more so after Vengeance is Mine. I thought it was pretty similar to begin with. Now I'm almost convinced it was inspired by it (though not really; I'm sure it's a popular setup). It even has that baby grow up and fall for her real father's student. Kind of cool!

Ah, I see. Thanks!

[GoldenFlither]

Ah, I see. Thanks!
You're very welcome!

[Commenter 42]

Already in the episode it seemed to me he was becoming overcome by hatred, and that was something that would've come to a head had the turtles given Shen a pep talk or not.
Saki turns on his promise towards Shen pretty quickly, so I find it a big if to say that he would be a good father and husband and that he would do anything for her, especially if his plans for the Foot clan were years in the making, in which case he was lying to Shen's face as he made his promise to be there for her. If he made his plans to destroy the Hamato clan after talking with Shen, he's no better than Yoshi for putting the ninja life over Shen and Miwa. He does exactly the thing he knows she doesn't want, to lead a ninja clan, and later raises Miwa in that very way. He makes these decisions before asking her to choose him for that last time, so I don't find his promise to her genuine at all. Yoshi was the better man in the end, and I don't view it as the turtles fault for pushing Saki over the edge. He made that choice himself, and it seems like it was a long time in the making.

And I agree with the bold, especially concerning Saki.

Again, the circumstances cultivated the hate. Flip the script and put Yoshi in Saki's place. Imagine if it was Yoshi who's father had been defeated, and he was the outsider. Given his hot headed nature, he might also lose his mind, and be overcome by hatred.

Anyone who continually gets the short end of the stick can become resentful, and hateful.

I guess my argument is that nurture can be more important than nature.

[Ursalink]

Heartbreaking. There's no other word to describe this episode.

+ The Turtles' wish to change the future was really understandable. However, Donnie's analysis of the consequences was exactly to mine: Yoshi never loses his family, he will never move to NY, he will never buy 4 baby turtles and they will never mutate. And with that, probably there won't be anyone able to stop the Kraang and their invasions.

+ It's kinda funny how story tends to repeat itself somehow, you know? I mean, they way young Saki and Yoshi fought until their master made them stop with the "Pressure Points" it's really similar to how Leo and Raph tend to fight in trainings, until Splinter stops them.
+ It was really emotional the Turtles' interaction with Tang Shen. Funny how Mikey managed to gain her confident acting goofy and making baby Miwa laugh. And very interesting the legend of the Yokkai/Kappa that Tang Shen said. Leo with baby Miwa... Adorable!!
+ I would really like to know how the shell Saki discovered his real origins, but they had to put that off-screen. And those traitors members of the Hamato Clan who side to the Foot's side, I wish the Turtles had made them suffer.
+ Very clever to use the legends of the Yokai against the supersticious Japanese ninjas and made them run in fear. Too bad the same thing doesn't work in New York. And seriously, steal your souls from your butts.... I read about it and I know the legend is true, but even so.... I ALMOST KILLED MYSELF LAUGHING!!!
+ Mikey and Donnie founding the body of Tang Shen, I'm not going to lie, I shed a tear for that. Living a tragedy on live is really more painful that seeing it in flashbacks.
+ I really hate that, at the end, Turtles' time travel was destined to save Yoshi's life. I really wish my theory about skipping time with Tang Shen would have been right.

I can't wait for next episode. I really hope the Turtles will find a way to cure/save Karai and finish the Shredder once and for all. Although, let's face it. As long as the series continues, the Turtles will never really destroy their arch-enemy.

Just one thing doesn't fit right. Don't you think that, with this, Shredder should have recognized something familiar on the Turtles the very first time he fought them? I'm with Raph, I hate time travel and all stuff related to it.

[Metalwolf]

Leo wanted to take out Shredder first thing. Donnie flat out states that if they change things New York would be destroyed. The world would be overrun. They had more things to worry about than just themselves. I don't think at any point they were thinking just of themselves.

But is he 100% right though? If you noticed in the group picture, April disappears too. Since she was partially instrumental in having the Kraang be able to perfect the mutagen, wouldn't her disappearance end up either delaying their plans or never having them come to fruition?

Something about what the turtles did in the past in Japan results in both Casey and April being born.

[TurtleTitan97]

But is he 100% right though? If you noticed in the group picture, April disappears too. Since she was partially instrumental in having the Kraang be able to perfect the mutagen, wouldn't her disappearance end up either delaying their plans or never having them come to fruition?

Something about what the turtles did in the past in Japan results in both Casey and April being born.

Or it could have meant April was captured early on like back in episode 1. Only this time the turtles weren't around to save her.

[Metalwolf]

Or I could have meant April was captured early on like back in episode 1. Only this time the turtles weren't around to save her.True, that was the other alternative scenario I thought of too. Just wanted to see what other folks thought of the first one :P

[Meliwen]

Again, the circumstances cultivated the hate. Flip the script and put Yoshi in Saki's place. Imagine if it was Yoshi who's father had been defeated, and he was the outsider. Given his hot headed nature, he might also lose his mind, and be overcome by hatred.

Anyone who continually gets the short end of the stick can become resentful, and hateful.

I guess my argument is that nurture can be more important than nature.
Saki in the episode wasn't so much a great person, but you're right, Saki could easily be a great person without all that knowledge of his history (or if it just never happened in the first place) and all the other hardships, like possible favourtism from his father to Yoshi and losing Shen, adding up and weighing him down. Because really, being raised by your family's killers is just messed up. I hadn't thought of putting Yoshi in his shoes, but you make a good point with him.

Saki's story is a tragedy, and I'm still a little disappointed the only time spent focusing on that was just one scene.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Well-written, but whatever. :)




Since we're already making up stupid time rules, Donatello's T-phone could probably link to an existing network and dial an operator, completely removing Tang Shen from danger.

But, no, use the only real deus ex machina in the episode to show a picture that wouldn't exist either time that history was rewritten.

Mobile telephones became common by the mid 1990's. Also, Japan is usually earlier than the USA in technology.

[yellowmario27]

Great episode ! Probably the best so far in season 3 and definitely one of the top episodes overall.

[RandomtasticFantasy]

I can't help but think: there isn't some code of honor between guys? Like if they're your friend or brother that you don't date their ex girlfriend? It just kinda seems like a jerk move on Yoshi's part. Like, I assume he had to know they were dating prior to him ending up with Shen. Kinds seems jerkish to scoop up your brother's ex with no regard to how he may feel. What if he still, I dunno, likes her? Shouldn't he have tried to be supportive instead?

Sorry, this episode just made Yoshi suck a little. (I like that to be frank: it shows how much he has grown and changed from his youth.) Prior to this, the way he told the story, it seemed like maybe both were vying for her affection, she picked Yoshi, and Saki was just bitter and jealous that he lost. Like it was one sided, she only dated Yoshi. Now I see why Saki was hurling insults at him like that in that flashback way back in episode two. Heck, I even see why he laughed once he realized Yoshi had turned into a rat.

I like that while Saki is still a pretty sucktacular individual, they at least give him some vality to his flaws. A lot of his actions make more sense now, as I get more of gist of his reasoning behind them instead of he's just evil and has an almost laughable degree of playing the victim. I mean he still does the latter, but now I actually think he believes it instead of just trying hard to deflect blame. Which is far more sad.

...I really like this episode.

Oh and to touch on the turtles being selfish in this episode to some: they kinda had to be. They had to think of the grander scope: The Kranng, April and Casey, the world, even on a more selfish tip, their own existence. Plus to be frank, while the entire thing was tragic, it seems Yoshi leaned something valuable from the whole affair and it made him a wiser, better man.

I just feel so bad for Miwa. She's the real victim in all of this. I really hope they give the girl a break and let her get de mutated and free of mind control. Kinda annoyed that latter part was even a development since Saki seemed more into saving her from her mutation at first then just flipped for no real reason other than maybe the writers felt like dragging **** out with her more.

[IndigoErth]

I can't help but think: there isn't some code of honor between guys? Like if they're your friend or brother that you don't date their ex girlfriend?
Heck, that goes for men and women both, she should have also known better herself. Sometimes people break that unspoken rule though, and in their case I guess it doesn't help if both were in love with her and if she herself may have been torn between the two. (Dammit, she's April. At least in the case of Donnie and Casey they were never close to begin with.)

I was taken aback by the first impression Yoshi gave us, but I like that it shows that he's not perfect and wasn't always who he is now (rat part aside) and the events of his life have made him more humble.

[victory_angel]

Heck, that goes for men and women both, she should have also known better herself. Sometimes people break that unspoken rule though, and in their case I guess it doesn't help if both were in love with her and if she herself may have been torn between the two. (Dammit, she's April. At least in the case of Donnie and Casey they were never close to begin with.)

I was taken aback by the first impression Yoshi gave us, but I like that it shows that he's not perfect and wasn't always who he is now (rat part aside) and the events of his life have made him more humble.

I have pointed out the possibility that Donnie and Casey's rivalry would mirror Splinter and Shredder's rivalry for Tang Shen.

For instance that 'Learn to like falling down' lesson. Yes that was mean to remind Donnie that he can't force April to like him. But there was also an underlying motive of derailing Donatello from stumbling down the same path the Shredder had.

After all Oroku Saki could not accept that Tang Shen had chosen Yoshi and had let his jealousy consume him.

also in Dream Beavers, Casey seems to have gotten the hint that April has chosen Donnie. But she hasn't made that choice official so she is still fair game. And he's not about to let Donnie know that April had chosen him. Which is why when Donnie asks "Hey didn't April kiss me a moment ago?" Casey just says "Dream on," as a way of saying "No, you just dreamed the whole thing."

[ToTheNines]

Kind of weird that the entire Hamato clan wore red. Would have made more sense and been way cooler if they were all wearing their favorite color instead.

[Powder]

Kind of weird that the entire Hamato clan wore red. Would have made more sense and been way cooler if they were all wearing their favorite color instead.

Thinking of it as a nod to Mirage, it's cool with me.

[Mew]

I like the purple of the Foot the most.

[Lil Karai]

Ok now THAT was a great episode. That had more of the depth I miss from seasons 1&2.

[ToTheNines]

Thinking of it as a nod to Mirage, it's cool with me.

I was being a smart ass and admittedly seeing if I could rustle any jimmies who get up in arms about the colored masks/red masks.

I thought it was rad that the clan color was red.

[CyberCubed]

I wish they were in black to be honest. Although I suppose it doesn't really matter since we may never see these ninja's again.

[ssjup81]

I wish they were in black to be honest. Although I suppose it doesn't really matter since we may never see these ninja's again.Traditionally, ninja wore clothes that didn't stand out to make their missions easier. They would dress as other civilians if out amongst other people. Maybe at night or if in the shadows, they would wear black, but the whole black ninja gear is more of a myth.

[Foombamaroom]

Was I the only one loving the music when Oroku Saki burned down the Hamato Yoshi dojo thing?

Also, I found it funny how even in the past, Saki still basically goes, "Turtles? Foot, handle them." and won't even face them himself. XD

[victory_angel]

Traditionally, ninja wore clothes that didn't stand out to make their missions easier. They would dress as other civilians if out amongst other people. Maybe at night or if in the shadows, they would wear black, but the whole black ninja gear is more of a myth.

The basic color of a ninja's uniform was dark blue or yellowish-red, also these colors were also the same color as farmers’ uniforms. If a ninja were to carry out his work during the daytime it would have been ideal not to stand out as different. In short, he could pass himself off as a farmer as soon as he felt danger.

[NoName999]

Anyone else loved how Saki originally raised Karai not to spite his brother but from apparent guilt over what happened?

[ObiWanFan4life]

Anyone else loved how Saki originally raised Karai not to spite his brother but from apparent guilt over what happened?

I feel the same way.

[DarkLightDragon]

Too bad he gave her exactly what Tang Shen didn't want for her.

Yes, I can concede that taking in Miwa is now more personal and guilt-ridden on Saki's part since he was the one who landed the killing blow to Tang Shen. But he still makes it clear to Yoshi that he took his daughter out of spite towards him and raising her as a ninja carry on his hatred. So even then, he wasn't being completely respectful for the one he obviously cared about and let his anger and hatred overpower his good act of taking in Miwa.

[BubblyShell22]

As far as Yoshi's intentions are concerned, he didn't want to sit and just "play ninja." He wanted to carry on running the dojo since he knew his father was dying and he figured Saki wouldn't want to run it himself. He has a great respect for his clan and wants to uphold it sort of the same way Leo is dedicated to pleasing Splinter and doing the right thing for the clan.

Yes, it's sad Shredder turned the other way, but now I see why he did it in the first place. I know about the whole "bro code" thing, but maybe they don't have that in Japan so it doesn't matter.

[THGhost]

We totally need some gifs of that Yokai scene ASAP.

Anyone care to provide us with these? I don't know how to create high res gifs.

EDIT: Here you are: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?p=1493651#post1493651

[LeotheLateBloomer]

The scene where the embraced the turtles whole kappa/yokai thing & terrorized Shredder's ninjas may be my all time favorite moment in this show's history. :tlol: It was just ridiculously badass & hilarious, a perfect combination. Their maniacal laughter, the flames, their heavily shadowed forms with white eyes, sooooooooooo cool...

I got so much goosebumps off of that scene! That was a great representation of them!

This episode may be my favorite not only of this season but of the entire series. They did not disappoint in the slightest. We learn that Hamato Yoshi was a bit too cocky at times. I can see that rubbing Oroku Saki the wrong way. And Tang Shin is once again (like the 2k3 series) such a lovely woman. She has the best human model in this series, by far. And man oh man, did that end scene where she got killed and burned by the fire was so dark. :o

Best episode in the series for me!

[oldmanwinters]

Anyone else loved how Saki originally raised Karai not to spite his brother but from apparent guilt over what happened?

Throughout the course of the show, I've never doubted that Shredder has genuine affection for Karai and truly considers her "his daughter." When she fell into the mutagen ooze, I think Shredder and Splinter were equally shocked and heartbroken.

Now, granted, he's still a twisted psycho, but even he has his moral complexities.

[Donny's computer84]

Strong episode very emotional. The Turtles witnessing Splinters past while keeping the timeline the same, in the end they were only meant to save Splinter and not Shen. Sad but, they able to get back to their time with Renet's help. :tconfuse:

[Klunk1234]

Great and intense episode! Unfortunately, nobody can change the past, so the boys could do nothing to avoid tragedy in Hamato Yoshi's life. It was so sad to see Yoshi mourning his dear Shen.

But the turtles save his life. It was their mission.

Lovely interaction between Tang Shen and the boys. It was cute to see Leo holding Miwa.

[victory_angel]

The way Saki caused the destruction of what he loved most reminded me of a moment in Gargoyles where Demona was being confronted with destruction she had caused.

In this scene the Wierd Sisters, Luna, Phoebe, and Seline ask her questions that tie her reasons for hating humanity back to her actions.

Demona: I will have vengeance for the betrayal of my clan, vengeance for my pain.

Seline: But who betrayed your clan?

Luna: And who caused this pain?

Demona: The Vikings destroyed my clan.

Seline: Who betrayed the castle to the Vikings?

Demona: The Hunters hunted us down.

Phoebe: Who created the Hunter?

Demona: Canmore destroyed the last of us.

Selene: Who betrayed MacBeth to Canmore?

Goliath: Your thirst for vengeance has only created more sorrow.

Demona: [Dejected] The access code is alone.


I will admit Yoshi isn't entirely blameless in this farce, but it was Oroku's Saki's choice to let his anger and jealousy consume him.

And all of his actions have been his doing. Hamato Yoshi and Tang Shen even Saki an out. They tell him things don't have to be this way, and he is to blind by his hatred to listen to reason.

[evan2000]

Look what I found on a Sushi menu :trazz:

http://i.imgur.com/RA6snYB.jpg

[ssjup81]

Look what I found on a Sushi menu :trazz:

http://i.imgur.com/RA6snYB.jpgYeah. It has that name because of the Kappa legend. It's made with cucumber. You'll find it on practically all sushi menus.

[ranger_scout]

I am glad that we got to dive into Splinter and Shredder's past during this episode. The "through your butts" line was just flat out hilarious. I also liked them poking fun at Back to the Future. It made sense to that because this year the film is celebrating its 30th anniversary. Plus, I really liked the scene where Leo was holding Miwa/Karai and she was playing with his mask.

[neatoman]

I don't know if this image is visible to everyone, so here's a direct link. https://data.archive.moe/board/co/image/1440/00/1440003313470.png

https://data.archive.moe/board/co/image/1440/00/1440003313470.png

[Splinter the boss]

That episode was awesome.

+: great fighting scenes, the Hamato clan, seeing Splinter's father, fear of Kappa, Tang Shen and baby Miwa.

-: The fact that we didn't see Shredder learning of his heritage.

[neatoman]

Come to think of it, this is the only time Tang Shen's death is an accident, isn't it?

Mirage, the first movie, 4Kids and IDW all depicted it as a deliberate murder. Respectively it was for revenge, confusing revenge, insanity and punishment. I can't think of any previous time it was unintentional.

[CyberCubed]

That's because Tang Shen wasn't in the original cartoon or Archie series.

[Shark_Blade]

Mikey sucking a cucumber.... :o

Oh Ciro and team you naughty perverts.. :D :evilgrin:

[TheMuz]

We just posted our review of this episode online if you guys are interested in seeing it! I hope you guys enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx1A7249sCA

[Powder]

The cringe is real.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Mikey sucking a cucumber.... :o

Oh Ciro and team you naughty perverts.. :D :evilgrin:


Ohmahgawd- I must've missed that, LOL!

[ToTheNines]

I'm kinda bummed that this episode didn't address Saki and Yoshi's nicknames, since in this version they were names they went by long before their big fight.

Also pretty miffed that that stupid military picture of them in New Friend, Old Enemy wasn't explained. Guess we'll never know the answer to that unless someone asks the crew at a con.