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Panda_Kahn_fan
09-01-2015, 09:57 AM
(This has probably been discussed to death on these boards, but a recent conversation with one of my professors pushed me to post this up. Sorry if it offends anyone)

After years of taking Asian Studies as my minor in college (and years of being a TMNT fan) I've come to the conclusion that both the teenage Mutant NINJA turtles and the foot, are more general martial artists than actual ninjas. This is after a long talk with an actual professor originally from Iga province, I have come to the conclusion that the TMNT are more generic martial artists than actual shinobi. They are simply called that to make them sound 'cool'.

And really, I can see the argument for this stance. In truth, shinobi are spies, saboteurs and mercenaries for hire. They move quietly, not wanting to attract attention as they go about their work. They are not primarily assassins Yes, they did kill when necessary, but tired to avoid killing if at all possible. Killing meant you had a body to hide, and heightened your chances of getting caught. They also had small bodies that weighed little to easily hide and avoid detection- let's see four giant green turtles do that! And the shinobi had very advanced and sneaky stealth techniques, that don't involve the turtles fake sneaking around we see in the shows and comics.

Let me repeat that for you 'grim n' gritty' ninja fans- Ninjas were not primarily assassins. 98% of all ninja missions were most likely spying or saboteur jobs. There actually were regular assassins to hire in Sengoku and Edo Japan if you wanted a nobleman dead, and common thugs would suffice if you wanted a peasant dead. Ninja were only hired for the most dangerous and high-risk jobs that needed done, and actually only rarely employed for killing due to the high cost of hiring them .


They don't wear black, and there were no ninja uniforms. Ninjas had no appearance- they would disguise themselves as anything from a peasant fisherman, to a traveling Buddhist flute monk with a basket on his head to stay invisible to a common person. The foot are non ninja because of the black kabuki uniforms- you know, the ones that make them visible against the moonlight? Clan colors? Japanese clans never used colors as an identification marker. And a ninja clan would never have any kind of mark that would show association between them. In fact, wearing four different colors, to sow confusion if they were caught, or to symbolize something- like, say, how there were for of them like there are four seasons- would actually make more sense than uniformity.

And those giant rooftop TMNT vs. Foot battles, filled with killing and blood and body parts and blood flying everywhere? Yeah, ninja would never draw that much attention to themselves or be that visible. Thank you Hollywood and Hong Kong cinema for giving people the wrong ideas! Shinobi never fought in battles, and the closest thing to a skirmish between clans would have been if one clan was trying to infiltrate a dyamio's castle, and another had been hired to protect it. Ninja tried to avoid conflict whenever possible, not jump into it every five seconds. Again, fits more with a martial arts gang war between two factions in a Hong Kong movie than actual ninjas.

Oh, and vengeance killing in the name of honor? That whole plot point can go on the rubbish heap with everything else. All of the talk of 'honor' and family' in the TMNT does not hold up in the face of what the shinobi actually were- the ninja sacrificed their honor in the name of their profession. If the foot were an actual ninja clan, Noshi killing Nagi would NOT have called the vengeance of the clan down upon him. Their feud would have been seen as a personal matter, and as long as Yoshi continued to spy and saboteur and bring in profits for the clan nobody outside the Ororku household would have given a crud about Nagi's death. Saki never would have been encouraged to seek vengeance- his killing of Yoshi would have been a personal matter.

Now, am I coming down on the TMNT here? Not at all! But it occurs to me, that the turtles act more like a clan of mixed martial artists, rather than actual ninja. Raised and taught to fight with the weapons of the far east by splinter for a specific purpose, and bearing a code of honor similar to the ones used by some martial artists in Japan. The vengeance and honor killing makes more sense as a personal vendetta, involving personal honor between house Ororku and house Hamato, rather than calling on ninja trappings that don't even exist.

Am I calling for the TMNT to not be called ninja? No, just pointing out that they are fictional ninja in every way, like we find in all sorts of cartoons, video games, manga, comics and anime. They were created at a time when 'martial arts movies are cool'! And the ninja name sounded 'awesome'! But I prefer to think of the Turtles as regular mixed martial artists, and the foot as wannabe shinobi- a group that uses martial arts to carry out mercenary and assassin work, without any true knowledge of the historical techniques of the Shinobi. Looking upon them as NINO (Ninjas in name only) helps me to enjoy the material just a bit better.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
09-01-2015, 10:01 AM
(This has probably been discussed to death on these boards, but a recent conversation with one of my professors pushed me to post this up. Sorry if it offends anyone)

After years of taking Asian Studies as my minor in college (and years of being a TMNT fan) I've come to the conclusion that both the teenage Mutant NINJA turtles and the foot, are more general martial artists than actual ninjas. This is after a long talk with an actual professor originally from Iga province, I have come to the conclusion that the TMNT are more generic martial artists than actual shinobi. They are simply called that to make them sound 'cool'.

And really, I can see the argument for this stance. In truth, shinobi are spies, saboteurs and mercenaries for hire. They move quietly, not wanting to attract attention as they go about their work. They are not primarily assassins Yes, they did kill when necessary, but tired to avoid killing if at all possible. Killing meant you had a body to hide, and heightened your chances of getting caught. They also had small bodies that weighed little to easily hide and avoid detection- let's see four giant green turtles do that! And the shinobi had very advanced and sneaky stealth techniques, that don't involve the turtles fake sneaking around we see in the shows and comics.

Let me repeat that for you 'grim n' gritty' ninja fans- Ninjas were not primarily assassins. 98% of all ninja missions were most likely spying or saboteur jobs. There actually were regular assassins to hire in Sengoku and Edo Japan if you wanted a nobleman dead, and common thugs would suffice if you wanted a peasant dead. Ninja were only hired for the most dangerous and high-risk jobs that needed done, and actually only rarely employed for killing due to the high cost of hiring them .


They don't wear black, and there were no ninja uniforms. Ninjas had no appearance- they would disguise themselves as anything from a peasant fisherman, to a traveling Buddhist flute monk with a basket on his head to stay invisible to a common person. The foot are non ninja because of the black kabuki uniforms- you know, the ones that make them visible against the moonlight? Clan colors? Japanese clans never used colors as an identification marker. And a ninja clan would never have any kind of mark that would show association between them. In fact, wearing four different colors, to sow confusion if they were caught, or to symbolize something- like, say, how there were for of them like there are four seasons- would actually make more sense than uniformity.

And those giant rooftop TMNT vs. Foot battles, filled with killing and blood and body parts and blood flying everywhere? Yeah, ninja would never draw that much attention to themselves or be that visible. Thank you Hollywood and Hong Kong cinema for giving people the wrong ideas! Shinobi never fought in battles, and the closest thing to a skirmish between clans would have been if one clan was trying to infiltrate a dyamio's castle, and another had been hired to protect it. Ninja tried to avoid conflict whenever possible, not jump into it every five seconds. Again, fits more with a martial arts gang war between two factions in a Hong Kong movie than actual ninjas.

Oh, and vengeance killing in the name of honor? That whole plot point can go on the rubbish heap with everything else. All of the talk of 'honor' and family' in the TMNT does not hold up in the face of what the shinobi actually were- the ninja sacrificed their honor in the name of their profession. If the foot were an actual ninja clan, Noshi killing Nagi would NOT have called the vengeance of the clan down upon him. Their feud would have been seen as a personal matter, and as long as Yoshi continued to spy and saboteur and bring in profits for the clan nobody outside the Ororku household would have given a crud about Nagi's death. Saki never would have been encouraged to seek vengeance- his killing of Yoshi would have been a personal matter.

Now, am I coming down on the TMNT here? Not at all! But it occurs to me, that the turtles act more like a clan of mixed martial artists, rather than actual ninja. Raised and taught to fight with the weapons of the far east by splinter for a specific purpose, and bearing a code of honor similar to the ones used by some martial artists in Japan. The vengeance and honor killing makes more sense as a personal vendetta, involving personal honor between house Ororku and house Hamato, rather than calling on ninja trappings that don't even exist.

Am I calling for the TMNT to not be called ninja? No, just pointing out that they are fictional ninja in every way, like we find in all sorts of cartoons, video games, manga, comics and anime. They were created at a time when 'martial arts movies are cool'! And the ninja name sounded 'awesome'! But I prefer to think of the Turtles as regular mixed martial artists, and the foot as wannabe shinobi- a group that uses martial arts to carry out mercenary and assassin work, without any true knowledge of the historical techniques of the Shinobi. Looking upon them as NINO (Ninjas in name only) helps me to enjoy the material just a bit better.

FASCINATING reading. Most of it doesn't surprise me a bit, given how little effort was made by Western media in the 80's and 90's to research Eastern cultures (see the discussion on Names elsewhere).

I love this stuff. :tgrin:

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-01-2015, 12:24 PM
FASCINATING reading. Most of it doesn't surprise me a bit, given how little effort was made by Western media in the 80's and 90's to research Eastern cultures (see the discussion on Names elsewhere).

I love this stuff. :tgrin:

Thanks! I find it amusing that the TMNT, fighters famous for big battles and gritty and flashy martial arts, are in a profession that avoided direct confrontation at all costs. :lol:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
09-01-2015, 01:06 PM
Thanks! I find it amusing that the TMNT, fighters famous for big battles and gritty and flashy martial arts, are in a profession that avoided direct confrontation at all costs. :lol:

Well, the Mirage TMNT avoided big fights whenever possible. The main big fights always took place during invasions of turf, except in City at War, when stuff hit the fan and it was chaos everywhere.

Candy Kappa
09-01-2015, 01:46 PM
It is important to remember that the Ninja in the TMNT universe is pop-culture (primarily American) influenced instead of real-life Shinobi.

Even the word, or rather pronouncing the kanji as Ninja rather as Shinobi is uncommon in history.

Personally I prefer separating the two as referring the black dogi dressed, sword wielding, super assassin as Ninja(s) while real-life just dressed in ordinary but easy to blend in crowds and backgrounds clothes, trained in espionage and acting over fisticuffs as Shinobi.

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-01-2015, 02:12 PM
It is important to remember that the Ninja in the TMNT universe is pop-culture (primarily American) influenced instead of real-life Shinobi.

Even the word, or rather pronouncing the kanji as Ninja rather as Shinobi is uncommon in history.

Personally I prefer separating the two as referring the black dogi dressed, sword wielding, super assassin as Ninja(s) while real-life just dressed in ordinary but easy to blend in crowds and backgrounds clothes, trained in espionage and acting over fisticuffs as Shinobi.

I can agree with that sentiment. I just find it funny that the old Britsh name 'teenage mutant hero turtles' almost seems more appropriate here :tlol:

Prowler
09-01-2015, 04:05 PM
Yea it's no secret that Eastman and Laird didn't do much of a proper research. The word Ninja was just slapped on as a gimmick of some sort, because people found it cool at the time.

Bombshell
09-01-2015, 04:48 PM
Thanks for all of the information. Unfortunately for the creators, the internet hadn't been created for a quick research on the topic and technicalities were thrown to the wind instead of heading down to the local library to make sure their comic book was accurate.

I knew someone who took some type of "Ninutsu" and he says that the modern type is "cheap and dirty". Quick cheap shots to end something quickly..that sort of thing. Not a whole lot of honor in it. I have to be honest and say I haven't done much research at all on the art, but I can agree to the idea that the "Ninja Turtles" were more or less "Mixed Martial Arts Turtles" instead. Although they did use costume and camouflage techniques (I feel they needed at least some type of training in concealment to remain unnoticed in New York's population), the honor and revenge among other things seemed out of character for ninjutsu.

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-06-2015, 11:43 AM
Yeah, this is my point. I'm not calling for the end of the TMNT or a name change, they are fine just the way they are. I'm just taking note of how inaccurate the whole thing is- not that there's anything wrong with that in fiction, in this particular case.

Werecat
09-06-2015, 01:07 PM
I think you are forgetting one of the main themes of TMNT and that is the effects of globalization; in TMNT you see multiple cultures combining to make a new subculture of an urban ninja. The traditional shinobi/ninja is not what defines the turtles but it does define their great master Yoshi.

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-07-2015, 07:10 AM
I think you are forgetting one of the main themes of TMNT and that is the effects of globalization; in TMNT you see multiple cultures combining to make a new subculture of an urban ninja. The traditional shinobi/ninja is not what defines the turtles but it does define their great master Yoshi.


Except that the 'urban ninja' are nothing like historical ninja (except in name only) and nothing like the tmnt.

Luckyday
09-12-2015, 02:13 AM
^ As always, it nice to read one of your threads.;)

But you know, that makes me think of what necessity would they need for their "ninja" skills if they never had a feud to use those skills in the first place.?

I mean in the mirage revenge was their entire purpose.

Eurydemus
09-12-2015, 08:28 PM
I like to think the Turtles - between crazy adventures in space and other dimensions - hire themselves out as spies (corporate espionage gigs maybe) to earn cash here and there. That would certainly be a way to put a bit more "ninja" in Ninja Turtles.

Assassinations though? Probably not. They're supposed to be the good guys, after all (though I tend see them as being more practical and "grey" in some respects).

Panda_Kahn_fan
09-12-2015, 10:39 PM
^ As always, it nice to read one of your threads.;)

But you know, that makes me think of what necessity would they need for their "ninja" skills if they never had a feud to use those skills in the first place.?

I mean in the mirage revenge was their entire purpose.

See that's the pin that holds everything together, and that's where the whole story falls apart.

Ninjas did not seek revenge, ever. They seek profit.

Revenge is tied to a set Japanese concepts we translate as the word 'honor'. Ninjas had sacrificed their honor for a job none else would do- profit was their primary motive. The whole cycle of vengeance would only exist as a personal feud (if at all) and the foot clan would never have gotten involved, because it would have been a waste of resources that could have been used to bring in profit.

Saki would never have 'been raised by the clan to seek revenge', he would have been raised to forget about his brother's murder, and commit more missions to bring in more profit. And why would Yoshi have run away with Tang? If he was as good a shinobi as the comics made him out to be, No one would have sought vengeance for Nagi's death. As long as Yoshi is performing missions and bringing in the profits, nobody would've shed a tear over Nagi's death. These are Ninja, not blood-feuding yakuza.

So with no story of revenge, where does that leave the whole premise? The cycle of vengeance only works as a personal feud- one' man's quest for revenge.

Luckyday
09-23-2015, 09:23 PM
See that's the pin that holds everything together, and that's where the whole story falls apart.

Ninjas did not seek revenge, ever. They seek profit.

Revenge is tied to a set Japanese concepts we translate as the word 'honor'. Ninjas had sacrificed their honor for a job none else would do- profit was their primary motive. The whole cycle of vengeance would only exist as a personal feud (if at all) and the foot clan would never have gotten involved, because it would have been a waste of resources that could have been used to bring in profit.

Saki would never have 'been raised by the clan to seek revenge', he would have been raised to forget about his brother's murder, and commit more missions to bring in more profit. And why would Yoshi have run away with Tang? If he was as good a shinobi as the comics made him out to be, No one would have sought vengeance for Nagi's death. As long as Yoshi is performing missions and bringing in the profits, nobody would've shed a tear over Nagi's death. These are Ninja, not blood-feuding yakuza.

So with no story of revenge, where does that leave the whole premise? The cycle of vengeance only works as a personal feud- one' man's quest for revenge.

Maybe it would make more sense to have it like Game of Thrones. They know they can't simply kill each other in plain sight so it's more like a game of chess for the top position of the clan. Both of them thinks that the other will bring the downfall of the clan due to having different politics of how the clan should be run and because both are corrupt in different ways.

It's not as sexy and interesting as a feud that started over a woman for the average joe, but it's more realistic and believable when writing about ninjas