PD TMNT what's relatable?

[turtlefanforever]

So thinking it over, I'm still not sure what they were going for. Generally speaking for the key demographic there's supposed to be something relatable to draw you into the movie/story, and I don't see it.

I'm not using it as a trash thread but really want to hear your feedback.

First and foremost they're teenagers, no teenager looks like that unless they're on roids.

The way they act to an extent I guess I could see that, to the most obnoxious of people out there. The hipster glasses, I could see. But i don't see what there is to relate to the key demo they were going for.

[plastroncafe]

Platinum Dunes specializes in hyper-masculine wish-fulfillment.
That's what's relatable: the idea that all men want to be musclebound heroes who save the hot girl.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Platinum Dunes specializes in hyper-masculine wish-fulfillment.
That's what's relatable: the idea that all men want to be musclebound heroes who save the hot girl.

This. Apparently, we're supposed to relate to drooling over Megan Fox. And Orange Crush soda. And Pizza Hut.

[IndigoErth]

I'm not sure they were focusing on trying to make the Turtles relateable sadly, and imo probably why Fox was kind of the center of it if they themselves can't relate to the Turtles nor understand that fans do.

[Candy Kappa]

Platinum Dunes specializes in hyper-masculine wish-fulfillment.
That's what's relatable: the idea that all men want to be musclebound heroes who save the hot girl.

yup.

/thread

[Commenter 42]

Platinum Dunes specializes in hyper-masculine wish-fulfillment.
That's what's relatable: the idea that all men want to be musclebound heroes who save the hot girl.

Yep, that's true :)

Some women do too, but instead beat a dead horse through passive aggressive posts like this, ignoring the deeper issues.

LGBT rights do not come at the cost of everyone else's. Get over it. Jesus.

The movie sucked, agreed. I hate the film too, but it would not have been a better film if gender roles were reversed, or if the camera hovered over Arnett's butt instead of Fox. Arnett wasn't given better lines of dialogue, in fact NO ONE said anything worth while in the entire 101 minutes. The action scenes would still be a mess, and the plot wouldn't make one more iota of sense.

I loathe this film, but it retains very few tropes of past Bay prods.

You have a point, and at times I'm on your side, but sometimes you're just flag waving.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Some women do too, but instead beat a dead horse through passive aggressive posts like this, ignoring the deeper issues.

This made my day. You owe me a new computer, 42, because I just spewed coffee all over it. :tlol:

[plastroncafe]

Yep, that's true :)

Some women do too, but instead beat a dead horse through passive aggressive posts like this, ignoring the deeper issues.

LGBT rights do not come at the cost of everyone else's. Get over it. Jesus.

The movie sucked, agreed. I hate the film too, but it would not have been a better film if gender roles were reversed, or if the camera hovered over Arnett's butt instead of Fox. Arnett wasn't given better lines of dialogue, in fact NO ONE said anything worth while in the entire 101 minutes. The action scenes would still be a mess, and the plot wouldn't make one more iota of sense.

I loathe this film, but it retains very few tropes of past Bay prods.

You have a point, and at times I'm on your side, but sometimes you're just flag waving.

Settle down, Beevis.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Settle down, Beevis.

Great, now MORE coffee is dripping down my keyboard. You guys are both helping me stay awake during a very boring Thursday afternoon. :tlol:

Thank you both.

And to divert for a moment, on 42's previous comment "some women do, too", I wonder when we're going to get this take on a fairy tale? I mean, we're getting tons of Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty etc retellings but none of them are moving beyond previously established gender/ethnic/sexual "norms." Wonder when that'll change, and who will be the first to dip their toe in the water? Probably not Disney...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Oh, one more thing.

I think it is the height of irony that someone with a profile picture of Donald Trump is arguing with a member promoting gender equality. I mean, that is hilarious. :tlol:

No? Just me?

[plastroncafe]

You mean where a musclebound woman saves a hot chick?
I don't know, but my money is there for the taking! Get on that, Hollywood!

I briefly thought about going through PD's entire production run and cross referencing the major tropes of those productions with the ones found in the 2014 TMNT movie, but...I don't have that kind of time.

So on the off chance someone else does:

http://www.imdb.com/company/co0071240/?ref_=fn_al_co_1

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TeenageMutantNinjaTurtles2014

Have at!
Though...I am so not responsible should you fall down a TV Tropes rabbit hole.


Update:
And no, that's not ironic.
And my initial post wasn't passive aggressive.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You mean where a musclebound woman saves a hot chick?
I don't know, but my money is there for the taking! Get on that, Hollywood!

I briefly thought about going through PD's entire production run and cross referencing the major tropes of those productions with the ones found in the 2014 TMNT movie, but...I don't have that kind of time.

So on the off chance someone else does:

http://www.imdb.com/company/co0071240/?ref_=fn_al_co_1

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/TeenageMutantNinjaTurtles2014

Have at!
Though...I am so not responsible should you fall down a TV Tropes rabbit hole.


Update:
And no, that's not ironic.
And my initial post wasn't passive aggressive.

I was thinking more the female equivalents of Jack Harkness and Ianto Jones, not necessarily ripped musclebound Amazons.

Well, whatever it is, irony or just funny, I found it hilarious. Now I just want to hear C42 say something about building a wall to keep out BayTurtle fans. :tlol:

[Commenter 42]

Settle down, Beevis.

Sure thing, Sweetheart.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3VMFWSIIAEAzu2.jpg

[Powder]

This movie wasn't made for us, geeks, it was made for jocks. So the appeal is to them, I guess. Military wank, "hot babe", flashy stuff, guns, car chases, etc.

[Commenter 42]

Oh, one more thing.

I think it is the height of irony that someone with a profile picture of Donald Trump is arguing with a member promoting gender equality. I mean, that is hilarious. :tlol:

No? Just me?

Re-read my f*cking post man. Gender issues are not the reason PDMT sucked. That's my point. Two off color comments in a movie don't paint the entire film. April was the protagonist. It was her story. She didn't rely on a man to solve her problems. Like it or not, it's not what Plastron was claiming. It WAS mindless, but mindless directionless stories is not distinctly the providence of one sex or the other(s). A badly made film is both gender and colorblind.

But yeah, infer the maxim, and turn me into a right wing douche, just because I'm not towing the extreme left party line.

There are degrees of outrage, but Plastron is always primed and set to 11. I'm calling them out on their BS. Again.

[Technogeek29]

But I'm not sure if we should have Hollywood do strong women. I mean we let Nintendo of Japan try and luckily we got Midna but the catch we got Metroid The other M.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Re-read my f*cking post man. Gender issues are not the reason PDMT sucked. That's my point. Two off color comments in a movie don't paint the entire film. April was the protagonist. It was her story. She didn't rely on a man to solve her problems. Like it or not, it's not what Plastron was claiming. It WAS mindless, but mindless directionless stories is not distinctly the providence of one sex or the other(s). A badly made film is both gender and colorblind.

But yeah, infer the maxim, and turn me into a right wing douche, just because I'm not towing the extreme left party line.

There are degrees of outrage, but Plastron is always primed and set to 11. I'm calling them out on their BS. Again.

Settle down, my man! I'm not saying gender issues are why PDMT sucked. I do agree that PD's target audience is the meathead jock, hence all the flag-waving, hot babes, flashy cars, etc etc.

And believe me, I'm not turning you into a rightwing douche or a leftwing douche. I simply find it funny that some guy has Donald Trump as his profile pic (a man who the media has portrayed numerous times as offending women) arguing with some gal who is always bringing up gender equality issues in the forums.

That's a visual spectacle that amuses the hell out of me. Nothing to do with the politics of you or Plastron. Seriously, am I the only one who's finding this funny? I guess so...

[Commenter 42]

Point is, it's like claiming Mad Max was ONLY good because of it's strong female characters. That is such a disservice to the film. It politicizes and colors the whole thing as propaganda. It ignores the incredible accomplishment, of the director and the crew, of making a great film, in todays studio climate. The STORY isn't great - but the STORY TELLING is top notch. This is what's sadly missing from PDMT, and the bulk of this generations films. How you tell your story is entirely the point of making a film. It doesn't matter who your lead is, or who the story features - if you do your job, it's compelling, interesting, and worthy of praise. Everything else should be secondary, as they all require good story telling to be of any value, at all.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Point is, it's like claiming Mad Max was ONLY good because of it's strong female characters. That is such a disservice to the film. It politicizes and colors the whole thing as propaganda. It ignores the incredible accomplishment, of the director and the crew, of making a great film, in todays studio climate. The STORY isn't great - but the STORY TELLING is top notch. This is what's sadly missing from PDMT, and the bulk of this generations films. How you tell your story is entirely the point of making a film. It doesn't matter who your lead is, or who the story features - if you do your job, it's compelling, interesting, and worthy of praise. Everything else should be secondary, as they all require good story telling to be of any value, at all.

Well, I do agree to a point that there is, overall, a lack of female protagonists comparatively. The Avengers roster, for example, was five white guys and Scarlet Jo up until the end of Avengers 2, when we got another white guy, a second girl, and an android. And a dozen MCU films later, and we STILL don't have a single solid female lead for a movie. Does that detract my enjoyment of the films? Not really. But would I absolutely appreciate and enjoy a film starring Black Widow, or Scarlet Witch, or Wasp? Of course.

And I still agree 100% with PlastronCafe that Michael Bay's target audience is dumb jocks, who just wanna see cleavage, explosions, cars, and the American flag. And, apparently, robot testicles. That target audience got carried over from Transformers to TMNT, and all true TMNT fans rued the day Michael F'ing Bay got involved with our beloved mutants.

At the end of the day, and I think you and I agree on this, the one defining feature of a story, whether movie, TV show, book, or comic, is the strength of the writing and the writer. Good actors can't do much for a terrible script; but an amazing script can still carry substandard acting.

[IndigoErth]

building a wall to keep out BayTurtle fans. :tlol:
Will they pay for the wall to keep themselves out?



Anyhow... how 'bout them relateables. Or lack there of.

[plastroncafe]

I disagree with the notion that good writing makes for a good movie.
Great movies can come from mediocre writing, I'm thinking of Fight Club just as an example. The book? Nothing special. The movie is phenomenal.

And a good chunk of that is due to the director.
You can take the greatest script written, but give it to a bad director with no vision and who doesn't know how to get a great performance out of his cast and you'll get garbage.

Will they pay for the wall to keep themselves out?
Anyhow... how 'bout them relateables. Or lack there of.

Back on topic.
I didn't find a whole lot to relate to with the PD 2014 movie, which...isn't all that surprising given that I'm the furthest thing from the target audience.
Not that I need to relate to a movie to get enjoyment out of it...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I disagree with the notion that good writing makes for a good movie.
Great movies can come from mediocre writing, I'm thinking of Fight Club just as an example. The book? Nothing special. The movie is phenomenal.

And a good chunk of that is due to the director.
You can take the greatest script written, but give it to a bad director with no vision and who doesn't know how to get a great performance out of his cast and you'll get garbage.



Back on topic.
I didn't find a whole lot to relate to with the PD 2014 movie, which...isn't all that surprising given that I'm the furthest thing from the target audience.
Not that I need to relate to a movie to get enjoyment out of it...

Easier for a good script to be in the hands of a poor director than a poor script in the hands of a good director, methinks.

[Powder]

I didn't find a whole lot to relate to with the PD 2014 movie, which...isn't all that surprising given that I'm the furthest thing from the target audience.
Not that I need to relate to a movie to get enjoyment out of it...

Yeeep...

I can relate to wanting a cool lair like the one they have, & being motivated by pizza, I guess? I'm reaching, but it's an honest effort.

It's also not anything close to exclusive to this version. That's just me relating to the TMNT in general, I guess.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I think only a hoarder could relate to having a wall-to-wall block of stereos. What, did the Turtles rip off an entire electronics store? There's got to be at least one hundred stereos on that wall. Maybe even 150 or 200.

Glad to say, I don't relate to people who have seventeen dead cats in their apartment. :tlol:

[IndigoErth]

Ok, I relate to Leo's button. :tlol: If I saw it somewhere I'd probably pick it up too. Oh, and blue-eyed club.

I also wear shoes like 3 out of 4 or them.

I think only a hoarder could relate to having a wall-to-wall block of stereos. What, did the Turtles rip off an entire electronics store? There's got to be at least one hundred stereos on that wall. Maybe even 150 or 200.
Since the Turtles were not even allowed outside of the house, I want a montage short of Splinter dragging all that stuff - including the irrational amount of boom boxes - home, because it had to be him. lol

Giant rat finding and rolling a disco ball home... I wish to see this. But how'd he agree to keep bringing home boom boxes. You're a parent, it's ok to say ENOUGH.

[ToTheNines]

I ride a hover board.

[Commenter 42]

I disagree with the notion that good writing makes for a good movie.
Great movies can come from mediocre writing, I'm thinking of Fight Club just as an example. The book? Nothing special. The movie is phenomenal.

And a good chunk of that is due to the director.
You can take the greatest script written, but give it to a bad director with no vision and who doesn't know how to get a great performance out of his cast and you'll get garbage.


I agree with everything, except for the part where you suggest the book was nothing special. It was an almost flawless translation to the screen of Palahunick's writing. Unless you read the book first, it was hard to not endure a sense of Deja-vu.

Cylon - Writers always feel writing is the most important component. No surprise there. :lol:

The reason I always stick up for Bay, no matter what anyone says, is his understanding of visual storytelling. Yes he has poor taste, yes, the writing is base, but he get's camera language. He knows how to cut a scene. He's a master of visuals.

It's a hard point to argue without getting roasted, but if you take the time to actually watch what he's doing and how he's cutting shot's together, it's symphonic. There are heaps of similarities between Mad Max's action and the Bay's action. The language is the same.

But we didn't get that - ANY of that in TMNT. We got flat out garbage. In fact, any film Bay has Produced, is garbage.

It's hard to give the devil his due, but you really shouldn't paint people with one stroke. For all his Crimes, Bay does one thing well; big action-sequences and set pieces.
TMNT is made for amazing action - but the action needs to mean something. Bay could have delivered on that. Instead Liebseman took us for a sleigh ride, and taught us physics are for chumps.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Ok, I relate to Leo's button. :tlol: If I saw it somewhere I'd probably pick it up too. Oh, and blue-eyed club.

I also wear shoes like 3 out of 4 or them.


Since the Turtles were not even allowed outside of the house, I want a montage short of Splinter dragging all that stuff - including the irrational amount of boom boxes - home, because it had to be him. lol

Giant rat finding and rolling a disco ball home... I wish to see this. But how'd he agree to keep bringing home boom boxes. You're a parent, it's ok to say ENOUGH.

:tlol: Splinter may whup their shells for sneaking out of the lair, but he's totally cool with lugging home disco balls, Beatz headphones, Ghostbusters cosplay costumes, entire CRATES of Orange Crush, and 101 Dalma--sorry, stereos.

Y'know what would be even stranger? The Turtles sneaking out and stealing a stereo every night, and then somehow convincing Splinter they're NOT leaving the lair.

"we found another stereo in the south junction, Sensei!"
"What, another stereo, my son? This is... the seventy-seventh?"
"Yes, Sensei."
"And it's in perfect working order?"
"Uh... that's right, Sensei."
"... Extraordinary."
"So... is it okay if I leave the lair tonight?"
"YOU WILL NOT LEAVE!" <karate chop>

I ride a hover board.

I want a hover board. :tsad:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Cylon - Writers always feel writing is the most important component. No surprise there. :lol:

Absolutely 100% guilty as charged. :tlol:

The reason I always stick up for Bay, no matter what anyone says, is his understanding of visual storytelling. Yes he has poor taste, yes, the writing is base, but he get's camera language. He knows how to cut a scene. He's a master of visuals.

It's a hard point to argue without getting roasted, but if you take the time to actually watch what he's doing and how he's cutting shot's together, it's symphonic. There are heaps of similarities between Mad Max's action and the Bay's action. The language is the same.

But we didn't get that - ANY of that in TMNT. We got flat out garbage. In fact, any film Bay has Produced, is garbage.

It's hard to give the devil his due, but you really shouldn't paint people with one stroke.

I'll agree he's actually capable of producing good movies. "The Island" still baffles me in that it was actually created by Michael Bay. Can't wrap my head around that.

However, I think if he were a true master of visuals, he'd have made the Transformers easier to tell apart other than "Bumblebee, Megatron, Optimus Prime, and... those two little racist robots. And the one with the beard."

[Commenter 42]

However, I think if he were a true master of visuals, he'd have made the Transformers easier to tell apart other than "Bumblebee, Megatron, Optimus Prime, and... those two little racist robots. And the one with the beard."

Go back and watch it again man. it's such a bunch of bull. You can totally tell who's who. There's NO shakey cam in the first two TF films. he establishes the action well.

Don't let the internet revise history for you.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Go back and watch it again man. it's such a bunch of bull. You can totally tell who's who. There's NO shakey cam in the first two TF films. he establishes the action well.

Don't let the internet revise history for you.

This opinion is my own. I watched Transformers 1, and it was enough for me. I could not tell any of the 'Bots apart whenever they were fighting. Having watched the CinemaSins videos on all four movies, I have seen enough of the other three movies to find that I personally still cannot tell any of them apart in action sequences.

When they're standing still, I can tell them apart as Jazz, Bumblebee, Megatron, and Optimus Prime. Those are the only ones that I, a casual audience who is not a TF fan, can identify.

But as far as shakycam, no, none that I recall. And his camera angles and work is quite cinematic and exciting; I can see the same style between Transformers, TMNT, and The Island. But in the Transformers films, I can't tell who the hell any of the 'Bots are.

[plastroncafe]

Transformers would have been a much better movie if it'd been a story about a kid and his car. Leave the other extraneous plots for sequels. It's a jumbled mess of tropes and caricatures. All flash, no bang.

Wish fulfillment.
Which in and of itself isn't bad, but in this case it had no depth. Unlike Fury Road, which was both gorgeous to look at and had people in it.

[Commenter 42]

I can see the same style between Transformers, TMNT, and The Island.

You're allowed that opinion, but as you've admitted to only watching TF1 - I can say, having seen all 4 (4 being admittedly a huge waste of time) that there isn't ANY similarity between Liebeseman and Bay. I'll grant you the distinctions between bots is less obvious, but I guess I'm also the guy that wants all the turtles to look the same. We'll agree to disagree.

Liebsman does the upclose shakeycam thing - a crutch for someone who doesn't know how to film matching action. Bay rarely does.

I do wish we'd gotten the designs from 1984 - but that's probably my nostalgia talking :)

2CIXYQlm2Ho

[IndigoErth]

:tlol: Splinter may whup their shells for sneaking out of the lair, but he's totally cool with lugging home disco balls, Beatz headphones, Ghostbusters cosplay costumes, entire CRATES of Orange Crush, and 101 Dalma--sorry, stereos.

Y'know what would be even stranger? The Turtles sneaking out and stealing a stereo every night, and then somehow convincing Splinter they're NOT leaving the lair.

"we found another stereo in the south junction, Sensei!"
"What, another stereo, my son? This is... the seventy-seventh?"
"Yes, Sensei."
"And it's in perfect working order?"
"Uh... that's right, Sensei."
"... Extraordinary."
"So... is it okay if I leave the lair tonight?"
"YOU WILL NOT LEAVE!" <karate chop>

:tlol: A lot of stuff in those sewers. So many tv/computer monitors just slip right through the storm grates. Surfboards, too. (Hell, they own a bumper car - I want answers. lol)

[Commenter 42]

Transformers would have been a much better movie if it'd been a story about a kid and his car. Leave the other extraneous plots for sequels. It as a jumbled mess of tried and caricatures. All flash, no bang.

Wish fulfillment.
Which in and of itself isn't bad, but I'm this case it has no delete levels. Unlike Fury Road, which was both gorgeous to look at and had people in it.

TF1 wasn't so much about the boy and =his car, as it was about bringing TF into the real world - it was as much spectacle as Mad Max, maybe more as, at that time, giant robots in live action, at that level of realism, was pretty novel.
Beyond that though, it had nothing to offer. It WAS wish fulfilment of every kid who owned those toys. Optimus was suddenly real.

Now, if they'd taken more of The TF lore, it's weird political musings, and included more of the actual story from the cartoon, it could have been something really special. There should never have been a story about a boy and his car, or possibly even a boy.

I loved the hell out of Mad Max - But the story fell apart at the mid point. I was locked in, loving all the crazy, gorgeous visuals, grotesque creatures, the hyper adrenaline - trying to keep up with the breakneck pace. My problem, is that it doesn't really pay off properly. It was this awesome set up, then we drift for a bit, then the entire thing in reverse, then the end. I'm aware the originals are similar, but still, I would have sat there for another hour, to get some sort of plot development, have it go some where. For what it was, it was beautiful, great storytelling, higest calibur of difficulty - but missing some follow through.

[Candy Kappa]

Damn, rewatching that fight scene from TF2. How can you make giant robots fighting so boring?

[Technogeek29]

Damn, rewatching that fight scene from TF2. How can you make giant robots fighting so boring?

I like the scene where Optimus died......Did I just admit I like the scene when the fighting was over as opposed to the actual fight itself?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

That's odd, I had no trouble telling them apart, except for one or two of the minor characters, and the fact that Starscream did NOT look (or sound) like he should have. But most of the rest did. Decepti-balls notwithstanding.

And I will agree with CKD that writing IS if not THE most important part of a good movie, it's at least in the top three. Without the story, there IS no movie, since cinema is story-telling, at its heart. A good story may suffer in the hands of a bad director (gods know that plenty of book adaptations have suffered from this) but a BAD story, even in the hands of a good director, is STILL a BAD story. It just LOOKS pretty.

[Commenter 42]

And I will agree with CKD that writing IS if not THE most important part of a good movie, it's at least in the top three. Without the story, there IS no movie, since cinema is story-telling, at its heart. A good story may suffer in the hands of a bad director (gods know that plenty of book adaptations have suffered from this) but a BAD story, even in the hands of a good director, is STILL a BAD story. It just LOOKS pretty.

I completely disagree. Reason? Shakespeare.

Proof it's how the story is told, not the quality of the writing.

Damn, rewatching that fight scene from TF2. How can you make giant robots fighting so boring?

It's lost some of it's luster since I saw it in IMAX, for sure - but remember, at the time EVERYONE argued the fight scenes was too frenetic and spastic. It's all relative.
Still beats the impossibly boring Pacific RIM.

Best sequence of all the TF films are still these:

5QYQS9SYa6A
m1ef1Y2x8NY

[TheSkeletonMan939]

I'm with Commenter 42. You can have a great story for your film, but it's all moot if you can't communicate it effectively to your audience.

I enjoyed Pirates of the Caribbean 3. Most people, I understand, did not. That I believe is because the film's plot is very thick, with layers and layers of information and subplots. Very detailed and thought-out. Good story? Yes, I suppose. But the pacing was a little too fast (even for a 2-and-a-half hour film!) and if you left the room for a few minutes you could easily become lost, and it's that much harder to enjoy the film.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm with Commenter 42. You can have a great story for your film, but it's all moot if you can't communicate it effectively to your audience.

I enjoyed Pirates of the Caribbean 3. Most people, I understand, did not. That I believe is because the film's plot is very thick, with layers and layers of information and subplots. Very detailed and thought-out. Good story? Yes, I suppose. But the pacing was a little too fast (even for a 2-and-a-half hour film!) and if you left the room for a few minutes you could easily become lost, and it's that much harder to enjoy the film.

I'm totally with you there, Skeleton. I understand a lot of people like to follow a story with minimum effort, but I absolutely love a story that has that much going on. I followed it with only a little trouble the first time (mainly keeping track of Calypso), and love it more each time.

And 42, I hate Shakespeare. I don't care how many people tell me he's amazing, he may be historical and trendsetting, but HE DOES NOT ENTERTAIN ME. Just, ugh. "Literature" does not always equal "worthy." I hated most of the "classics" I read in my lit classes.

[Commenter 42]

And 42, I hate Shakespeare. I don't care how many people tell me he's amazing, he may be historical and trendsetting, but HE DOES NOT ENTERTAIN ME. Just, ugh. "Literature" does not always equal "worthy." I hated most of the "classics" I read in my lit classes.

Okay - not exactly my point :lol:

Besides, what's to hate? Who do you read? (Not that I only read Shakespeare, but still curious).

[sethmartin]

Who did I relate to? Well, if I had to pick, I guess I would say I related to Vern the most because I thought Megan Fox was hot and I wanted nothing to do with Eric Sacks

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Okay - not exactly my point :lol:

Besides, what's to hate? Who do you read? (Not that I only read Shakespeare, but still curious).

I honestly don't remember many of them, they all blurred together. Great Gatsby, Scarlet Letter, Of Mice and Men (THAT one I remember in brutal detail), Poe (although I do like the Raven), Grapes of Wrath, Last of the Mohicans, etc...

Most of it either bored me or was depressing. Total bleak everything-is-meaningless is not my cup of tea.

Now, caveat: I haven't read ANY "literature" since high school and testing out of college lit, so it's all kind of muddled together. The overall experience of American Literature, however, was bleak and depressing for me. Or just overhyped.

Yes, I have "shallow" taste. I'm on a TMNT forum, what do you expect? :tlol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I completely disagree. Reason? Shakespeare.

Proof it's how the story is told, not the quality of the writing.

It's lost some of it's luster since I saw it in IMAX, for sure - but remember, at the time EVERYONE argued the fight scenes was too frenetic and spastic. It's all relative.
Still beats the impossibly boring Pacific RIM.


Shakespeare? That's your argument? He's not only good at telling the story, but the stories are very memorable in their own right, even if some of them were ripped off of earlier works (Romeo & Juliet = Tristan & Isolde) or ripped from history or mythology. (Julius Caesar and King Lear, respectively.) Iconic plots, told well. It's the quality of the WRITING! (Because no matter how technically skilled a writer is, a crap story will never be more than a crap story.)


I'm with Commenter 42. You can have a great story for your film, but it's all moot if you can't communicate it effectively to your audience.

I enjoyed Pirates of the Caribbean 3. Most people, I understand, did not. That I believe is because the film's plot is very thick, with layers and layers of information and subplots. Very detailed and thought-out. Good story? Yes, I suppose. But the pacing was a little too fast (even for a 2-and-a-half hour film!) and if you left the room for a few minutes you could easily become lost, and it's that much harder to enjoy the film.


Film is still storytelling, though. Doesn't matter how well you communicate it, if it's crap, the audience will still see that. Dress up garbage with as much ribbon and lace as you like, but it'll still be garbage! And communicating junk will just bore the audience, no matter how visually stunning it is.


I'm totally with you there, Skeleton. I understand a lot of people like to follow a story with minimum effort, but I absolutely love a story that has that much going on. I followed it with only a little trouble the first time (mainly keeping track of Calypso), and love it more each time.

And 42, I hate Shakespeare. I don't care how many people tell me he's amazing, he may be historical and trendsetting, but HE DOES NOT ENTERTAIN ME. Just, ugh. "Literature" does not always equal "worthy." I hated most of the "classics" I read in my lit classes.


I take it you never read any of the "fun" ones in school. Personally, the only "classics" I enjoyed were Lord of the Flies, Animal Farm, Metamorphosis, and Alas, Babylon. At least until my Junior year in high school, when we had an entire YEAR of horror and dark side of man themes! Original Grimm fairy tales, character arch-types, mythology, tragedy and gothic literature galore! I loved being able to read Dracula, Frankenstein, and Picture of Dorian Grey as actual reading assignments!


Okay - not exactly my point :lol:

Besides, what's to hate? Who do you read? (Not that I only read Shakespeare, but still curious).


Me too. Already listed some of the ones I read, though there were plenty of others I also read, but detested.

[plastroncafe]

Shakespeare isn't meant to be read, it's meant to be performed.
And if you hate it, it's likely because you've seen craptastic performances of it.

Which again speaks to the director of a given work being the lynchpin that makes a performance work.
Bad director = bad film.

[Commenter 42]

Shakespeare? That's your argument? He's not only good at telling the story, but the stories are very memorable in their own right, even if some of them were ripped off of earlier works (Romeo & Juliet = Tristan & Isolde) or ripped from history or mythology. (Julius Caesar and King Lear, respectively.) Iconic plots, told well. It's the quality of the WRITING! (Because no matter how technically skilled a writer is, a crap story will never be more than a crap story.

Oye, I must not have been clear - Shakespeare is an incredible writer - That's my point, but it depends entirely on the director and performance of the play to give it life. The point is the writing can be of the highest quality, and the performance can still suck - on the other hand, you can improvise a scene, and still bring down the house. (we can argue the semantics of whether improve is actually a form or writing at a later date.)

In most instances, middling scripts, in the right hands, can come to life, as evidenced in the Star Wars Trilogy. In the wrong hands, you get the Prequels.

"You can write this stuff, but you sure as hell can't say it".

Shakespeare isn't meant to be read, it's meant to be performed.
And if you hate it, it's likely because you've seen craptastic performances of it.

Which again speaks to the director of a given work being the lynchpin that makes a performance work.
Bad director = bad film.

^^ more concisely this. :lol:

[Commenter 42]

I honestly don't remember many of them, they all blurred together. Great Gatsby, Scarlet Letter, Of Mice and Men (THAT one I remember in brutal detail), Poe (although I do like the Raven), Grapes of Wrath, Last of the Mohicans, etc...

Most of it either bored me or was depressing. Total bleak everything-is-meaningless is not my cup of tea.

Now, caveat: I haven't read ANY "literature" since high school and testing out of college lit, so it's all kind of muddled together. The overall experience of American Literature, however, was bleak and depressing for me. Or just overhyped.

Yes, I have "shallow" taste. I'm on a TMNT forum, what do you expect? :tlol:


I think you just need to look at more contemporary authors. It can be hard to relate to work from another era when you're young.

I hated Gatsby when I read it - which was to say, at 15, I read 10 pages then cribbed from Coles notes.

I didn't realize it was what it was until years later. I chalk it up to youthful ignorance. I find re-reading the classics as you age, changes their meaning. Frankenstein and Dracula were boring monster lit in my teens - hardly exciting. In my late twenties, they were full of mysticism, where there might be grains of truth beneath the myth. A decade later, I read them as social commentary. It's funny how perspective changes.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I'll give you that, certainly, but my feeling is that it all STARTS with the story. That's the base that MUST have some solid foundations and support before anything else can stand or fall. And I agree that Shakespeare is meant to be performed, simply because that was the format it was written in to begin with. As are ALL screenplays or scripts. They are written for PERFORMERS, not readers. Big difference there. It's all in the intended audience. If he'd written them in prose form, we'd probably see a much different perspective on his works. Actually, I'd kind of like to see a version of that done for contrast. A rewrite of MacBeth, for example, in standard literary format. Would be interesting to see how it differs, and in how it would translate back to the screen or stage.

Also, Lucas had a much larger and more complex story originally. I mean, Luke was originally supposed to have the role that Kenobi did, and Solo was the main character in Luke's place! But yes, I get your point about the dialog. That wasn't exactly the strong point of the script by any means. With a few memorable exceptions. Then again, the direction also called for Luke to hold the darn light-saber up to his face and look into the blade end while he was examining it....

[Commenter 42]

I'll give you that, certainly, but my feeling is that it all STARTS with the story...

I'm not dismissing writing on the whole, or suggesting it isn't important, because that would be dumb. I think the Shakespeare example holds though, as we are discussing movies not books.

Of course, without writing, there is no book. But a movie can still be made. We know this because Tommy Wiseau knows this...

Yes, it starts with a story, but the quality of the story is less important than the manner of it's telling.

[Leo656]

...It's spelled "Beavis".

[Technogeek29]

Well when it comes to movies having the right actors helps a ton in a terrible movie. I generally find actors I like but hate the movie they feature in. for the longest I wasn't sold on Heath Ledger playing the Joker and disregarded what any said contrary to the wise. Until I bought it on Blu-Ray last year I thought is was a terrible direction. That said I still don't like the Dark knight or the Dark Knight Rises.

[Commenter 42]

As to the OP's question - I think they were hoping to relate to a group of people - that don't exist. I don't think many kids would recognize a boombox today. I also wonder how many kids are into pop and pizza, when everyone's so damned health conscious. I guess some people have slid down hills? I don't think the dialogue spawned any catchphrases, and the most quotable moment was the guy's beat-boxing.

So no, nothing.

[Candy Kappa]

. Also, Lucas had a much larger and more complex story originally. I mean, Luke was originally supposed to have the role that Kenobi did, and Solo was the main character in Luke's place! But yes, I get your point about the dialog. That wasn't exactly the strong point of the script by any means. With a few memorable exceptions. Then again, the direction also called for Luke to hold the darn light-saber up to his face and look into the blade end while he was examining it....

The comic The Star Wars is based off the original draft, and it's a great "what if.." scenario where we can see how bad the movie(s) would have been had Lucas had full control back then and gone with the idea that came to his mind.

The original draft is terribly hilarious. I'm so glad we did not get Annikin Starkiller as out main protagonist. :lol:

[plastroncafe]

...It's spelled "Beavis".

Eh, it got the point across just the same.
(spectacularly so, in fact. I'm kind of chuffed.)

[Amaranthus]

I can relate to Mikey's raging boner for Megan Fox.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The comic The Star Wars is based off the original draft, and it's a great "what if.." scenario where we can see how bad the movie(s) would have been had Lucas had full control back then and gone with the idea that came to his mind.

The original draft is terribly hilarious. I'm so glad we did not get Annikin Starkiller as out main protagonist. :lol:


Yes, yes it is. I've heard about the Lucas draft comic, but haven't read it. I'm wary to even try, honestly. The last SW comic I read was the Luke and Mara Jade wedding TPB, and I was happy with that. I prefer the novels, mostly.

[Foombamaroom]

o.o This thread is all over the f*cking place (Just like the plot of the Transformers movies, HA.).
From gender issues to shaky cam to... I just.

But on the shaky cam thing, TF 1 I couldn't see what the hell was going on because it looked like Bay was still trying to adjust to shooting the CGI. TF 2 had the best action in my opinion because I could see what was going on. I don't know why people say the Optimus vs. 3 Decepticons fight was boring... I thought it was entertaining. I'd take that over the action sequences we got in 3 and 4. Watch 3 and 4 again. In every action sequence, they cut to the humans ALL THE TIME.

[Commenter 42]

o.o This thread is all over the f*cking place (Just like the plot of the Transformers movies, HA.).
From gender issues to shaky cam to... I just.

But on the shaky cam thing, TF 1 I couldn't see what the hell was going on because it looked like Bay was still trying to adjust to shooting the CGI. TF 2 had the best action in my opinion because I could see what was going on. I don't know why people say the Optimus vs. 3 Decepticons fight was boring... I thought it was entertaining. I'd take that over the action sequences we got in 3 and 4. Watch 3 and 4 again. In every action sequence, they cut to the humans ALL THE TIME.

1&2 had the most compelling action. Meh, TF1 had a bit of shakey cam, but watching it back from a blu-ray - it's pretty minimal, and clear. I can make out what's happening, even without my glasses. :lol:

2 got all the bad press for the twins, but it had some of the best action of the series. (cue the obligatory outrage, again) :lol:

But movies like MOS or Battle LA - and parts of TMNT2014...all blurry out of focus shakey cam - with a few beauty shots tossed in. whip pans and zooms obscuring the action.

[Foombamaroom]

1&2 had the most compelling action. Meh, TF1 had a bit of shakey cam, but watching it back from a blu-ray - it's pretty minimal, and clear. I can make out what's happening, even without my glasses. :lol:

2 got all the bad press for the twins, but it had some of the best action of the series. (cue the obligatory outrage, again) :lol:

But movies like MOS or Battle LA - and parts of TMNT2014...all blurry out of focus shakey cam - with a few beauty shots tossed in. whip pans and zooms obscuring the action.

I thought the Splinter vs. Shredder fight was probably the best out of the action sequences.

The Turtles vs. Shredder fight, on the other hand... Why did he SPIN THE CAMERA SO MUCH? And it was in one shot, so that makes it worse.

[Commenter 42]

I thought the Splinter vs. Shredder fight was probably the best out of the action sequences.

The Turtles vs. Shredder fight, on the other hand... Why did he SPIN THE CAMERA SO MUCH? And it was in one shot, so that makes it worse.

In both fights there were a handful of shots that were cool, but just.

[Foombamaroom]

I think that my biggest gripe is that Liebesman shot the whole film in a shaky cam style.

Who the **** thinks of an opening of Megan Fox running towards a guy, and goes, "Hmmm, yeah, let's shake the camera."

[Commenter 42]

I think that my biggest gripe is that Liebesman shot the whole film in a shaky cam style.

Who the **** thinks of an opening of Megan Fox running towards a guy, and goes, "Hmmm, yeah, let's shake the camera."

So much ^ THIS^

OMG YES YES YES YES YES!

Thank you. Notes on how NOT to shoot a film. :lol:

[IndigoErth]

One of the reasons (the other being "Zzzzz") that I've taken to fast forwarding the movie until it gets to a more interesting, non-human-only part. That shaky nonsense is so hard to watch. >.< (Is it really just a Hollywood drug problem - withdraws making them shaky - and disguised as a film style?)

Edit: It makes me think that we're to assume it's shaky because we're seeing it from Vern's perspective via his camera - but then we see that his ass is back at the van.

[Foombamaroom]

Edit: It makes me think that we're to assume it's shaky because we're seeing it from Vern's perspective via his camera - but then we see that his ass is back at the van.

That would've been creative, but Liebesman has the creativity of a lobotomized squirrel.

[Commenter 42]

That would've been creative, but Liebesman has the creativity of a lobotomized squirrel.

And that's being kind.

[Amaranthus]

Tfw your post is comedy gold but people ignore it.

[ToTheNines]

No it wasn't.

[Amaranthus]

No it wasn't.

It totally was.

[Powder]

Nah, it wasn't.

[Leo656]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/66/2b/c1/662bc12cb2e158a685bb39a6f11e45a1.jpg
"Jeez... These f***in' guys..."

[Amaranthus]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/66/2b/c1/662bc12cb2e158a685bb39a6f11e45a1.jpg
"Jeez... These f***in' guys..."

There. I deleted it.
But I still stand by my point.

[Leo656]

Wasn't directed at anyone individually. Indeed, Vinnie Vegas is far above such petty squabbles.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

That would've been creative, but Liebesman has the creativity of a lobotomized squirrel.

I always wondered what happened to Rocky the Flying Squirrel... I guess he needed to come down to Bullwinkle's level? :tlol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Even Bullwinkle had a few moments of intelligence, though....