Are we ever going to get a TV show that isn't mainly a toy commercial? [Archive]

neatoman

11-01-2015, 09:14 PM

So up until recently I was a bit annoyed by the Nickelodeon cartoon, in that I was pretty satisfied with the first season but found the general structure of the series as a whole to be bizarre and the writing quality seemed to get worse with time. Of course I did eventually have to accept a simple fact, entertainment value is a lesser priority than toy sales and marketing of the franchise in general. That's why the show is so awkwardly structured.

Let's face it, Nickelodeon was probably never interested in a show that would bring ratings, it's more likely the initial idea was to make kids interested enough in the TMNT to boost the sales of tickets for the 2014 movie and sell toys, I'm pretty sure the toy commercial aspect is the only reason Nickelodeon bothered to renew the show for at least 5 seasons. I know that the other TMNT shows were mainly toy commercials as well but I'm a little more forgiving there since, well, MWS never produced anything else that was successful and 4Kids pretty much only ever did anime dubs, it just seems less acceptable when a much larger production company does this sort of thing.

I'm not really sad that the Nickelodeon cartoon is nothing more than a toy commercial since that's what TMNT shows have always been and I do get more interesting TMNT material from IDW, it's just that Nickelodeon had the potential to be far better than 4Kids or Fred Wolf at making a TMNT show but then they decided to just make the same type of marketing tool again. It's just a bit dissappointing, I still enjoy the show to some extent but I had to accept it's not really intended to be anything other than a shallow marketing tool.

So obviously TMNT shows are always going to have toylines but I wonder if we're ever going to have one where the marketing aspect doesn't override the story?

Leo656

11-01-2015, 09:24 PM

No.
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CyberCubed

11-01-2015, 09:29 PM

Nah. The most you can hope for is if the IDW comics are adapted to a cartoon at some point, and even then that's still toy/character centric.

Wildcat

11-01-2015, 09:56 PM

It not just a toy commercial. Tmnt started as comics anyway.

I hate when shows like this or transformers are labelled as "toy commercials". I know transformers literally started out as toys but seriously these shows have detailed and thought out storylines. Even OT and G1 for the time.

Who the heck would go through all the work of coming up with plots, stories and origins and everything else just to sell toys? Obviously toys factor in but because these franchises became so popular there's money to be made from merchandise, that's a given.

Regardless, what I'm saying people cared enough to give toylines a universe. That's a whole lot of effort for something supposedly only created to sell toys. That seems like a huge waste of time and money just to sell an already created toy line. Especially multi-season tv shows.

IndigoErth

11-01-2015, 10:10 PM

Even if that was how the first show started, wouldn't any popular series just end up with a toy line anyhow? And is understandable that they might try to predict in advance what might be worth making new figures for.

A lot of thought clearly goes into Nick's series though beyond adding new toys, and there have been plenty of episodes that didn't add anything of new toy potential, so... The show's team does their job, and Nick and the toy companies capitalize on it because it's what they are in business to do. Besides, who doesn't want some of the toys? They get business and we get a show and part of the action... figures.

Powder

11-01-2015, 10:23 PM

Wildcat

11-01-2015, 11:16 PM

I'm not sure if I admire your blissful ignorance or fear it. Both, maybe. Ha. Indigoerth probably phrased it a little better. Any popular show is bound to get merchandise made for it.

The TV shows are clearly more intricate than being one big ad. If it was all just to sell toys there's gotta be easier ways to do so. A basic comic series, dtv animated movie.

Powder

11-01-2015, 11:42 PM

Wildcat

11-02-2015, 12:30 AM

Just because something has a lot of love put into it doesn't mean it's not fundamentally a toy commercial. The people who are responsible for putting it together do their best to make an awesome show, but there wouldn't be a show to make at all if it's purpose was not to sell toys. Corporate America does not care about your fandom, it cares about your dollar. If people are hired who happen take that feeling away with their work, that's a wonderful thing, but the fact remains, & there will always be trace elements of that toy company's say so in the episodes. Hasbro funds Transformers stuff so you'll buy Transformers toys. Playmates funds TMNT stuff so you'll buy TMNT stuff. Etc.You say it's still fundamentally a commercial and Corporate America only cares about your dollar yet they still cared enough to make it good?

Like, Let's make a really good show with awesome stories - so we get everyone's money. Haha, They'll be none the wiser!...that's dumb.

You and others wanna make it out to be about money. Well if they still cared enough of make good shows then it's not really all about "Corporate America" and your dollar is it?

Think about everything it takes to make a quality show, even a bad one. Just to sell an existing toyline does not make sense. Creating a toyline to profit from a popular show make sense.

Obviously Hasbro and Transformers are so successful the cartoons/movies are easily backed like most big franchises. I mean back then, to put all that work and resources into a show because of existing toys?

Powder

11-02-2015, 01:22 AM

"Toy Commercial" cartoons are/were often hit or miss. Corporate America, AKA the toy companies funding these shows, are the not the ones that make 'em good, & they don't care that they are, either. It's the people who write it that make the distinction. We turtle fans have gotten lucky that they're not simply shilling like many others have. All that matters to the toy companies is that their products are represented in animation.

If it doesn't make sense to you, then it's clear you don't have a clue about how these things work. Rarely do cartoons for kids get made if they're not pushing a product. The sole incentive for investing parties is that there will be a return, one that is significantly more than what was put in. It's common sense, standard logic. "Just to sell an existing toyline does not make sense" That's literally what happened with the Fred Wolf series, homie. Playmates paid for a 5 episode pilot to push the action figures they had just made. Nick's TMNT would have been cancelled already if not for Playmates, that is a fact. They stepped up to keep it on air & as a result it has become slightly less serialized, more toyetic (variant costumes in frequent use + more vehicles), & there are new (often times one-shot) characters being introduced all the time.

Wildcat

11-02-2015, 01:24 AM

Corporate America isn't who makes it good. It's the people who write it. Reading comprehension.

If it doesn't make sense to you, then it's clear you don't have a clue about how these things work.Whoever originally backed G1 had to care more about it than just the almighty-dollar. Shows based on toys is not the norm.

Transformers was not a huge franchise like today. I don't know how popular the toys were themselves prior to the cartoon but I imagine you'd have to care more than usual to turn it into an elaborate show.

I'm not going to invest so much resource/effort to boost an existing toy line. There had to have been easier ways or better opportunities.

I understand where this mindset comes from but when you really think it over, at least with this, it really does not make sense.

Powder

11-02-2015, 01:27 AM

Yeah, you don't get it.

Commenter 42

11-02-2015, 01:31 AM

This thread hurts my head.

If such a show existed, would you be content to just watch said show, with no collectibles? Is that really what you want?

I'm curious, how many people here would be excited for a great tmnt show, that didn't produce any toys.

Wildcat

11-02-2015, 01:38 AM

Yeah, you don't get it.Oh I see you changed your reply. Well now you're separating the cartoon creators and the toy companies. Ya the toy companies probably don't care about the show much other than popularity.

I was talking about show creators creating a cartoon on pre-existing toys. This doesn't make sense to me.

I know the ot was made with the toys in mind but the comics were first. Someone must have thought they were cool enough to begin with. To make a cartoon out of it...and yes toys to go along.

I doubt we would have gotten a cartoon just because there was already a toy line of ninja turtles. Pretending they had not come from Laird and Eastman comics I mean.

Powder

11-02-2015, 01:43 AM

I know the ot was made with the toys in mind but that was not why the turtles were created. The comics were first. Someone must have that was cool enough to begin with. To make a cartoon out of it.

I doubt we would have gotten a cartoon just because someone else invented ninja turtle toys. Pretending Laird and Eastman had not created the characters.

That is not the discussion being had here.

Whether or not Playmates "thought that was cool enough to begin with" is beside the point- they saw a money making opportunity. It's not a matter of "Wow, this thing deserves to be seen, we're gonna invest in you guys so you can get your due!" it's a matter of "You guys aren't using this property to it's full potential. We could get one of these things in the hand of every child in America if you let us mess around with the license for a while. We'll all be filthy rich." & that is why we got a cartoon. To tell the toys. To make money.

This thread hurts my head.

If such a show existed, would you be content to just watch said show, with no collectibles? Is that really what you want?

I'm curious, how many people here would be excited for a great tmnt show, that didn't produce any toys.

I buy the monthly comics that have no toys. I bought the game that had no toys. I buy the toys that have no show. I love TMNT, I don't care what the aim is.

Wildcat

11-02-2015, 02:04 AM

That is not the discussion being had here.

Whether or not Playmates "thought that was cool enough to begin with" is beside the point- they saw a money making opportunity. It's not a matter of "Wow, this thing deserves to be seen, we're gonna invest in you guys so you can get your due!" it's a matter of "You guys aren't using this property to it's full potential. We could get one of these things in the hand of every child in America if you let us mess around with the license for a while. We'll all be filthy rich." & that is why we got a cartoon. To tell the toys. To make money.Ya I know. That's a very cynical view of it but ya.

They changed it because the comics were too mature but they saw the potential of the characters. I'm sure they cared if the show turned out good.

Commenter 42

11-02-2015, 02:18 AM

Powder

11-02-2015, 02:35 AM

I think the question is more in the vein of "Will we ever get a show whose demographic is young adults rather than kids?", maybe that will help you to get their point. Something that has us in mind first doesn't have to include lots of colorful monsters, vehicles, or Michelangelo goofiness, it can elect to use such things, but wouldn't be reliant on them.

An Adult Swim show or something would obviously have free reigns to do whatever they want & not bent at the whims of Playmates' creative input. Not sure where the bulk of the dough would be for them, but I guess it'd be in whatever those other shows make bank on. Obviously that's not gonna happen though.

Freeman

11-02-2015, 02:57 AM

I can not belive a grown-up is so blind not to see all cartoons are made to sell their toys.

Cartoon shows are aimed for kids.
Kids can be easily influenced into what they like and how much they like it.
Kids will pressure their parents to buy for them things they like, because they own no money and don't undertad yet how much it takes to earn it.

Therefore, companies create show that will be liked by kids, and then a lot of preoduct to be sold along. From toothbush to pijamas, from backpacks to haloween costumes, starting with action figures.
Of course, to make the show, they also must hire professional story tellers and animators, because companies know about money, but don't tell stories.
But in one point or another, a company executive will come to the animator studio and will say: "We need to launch the 2nd wave of toys, so you have to create new characters and new gears for main characters. There must be at least 20 characters in the next season so we can make a pool on the website and then chose wich 15 we are producing acording to kids feedback."

And about the comics-tv transition, it's EXACTLY as Powder said: Eastman & Laird agreed to allow Playmates to change some aspects of their creation in order to, guess what, make it more kids appealing and therefore more profitable.

neatoman

11-02-2015, 03:25 AM

@powder

Yeah, but you get my point. If the show was good, the thread would be "why aren't we getting figures for this series?"

I don't understand the op's point. TV "shows" only exist to sell ad time, products, or both. As Powder said, it's a business, and has never been otherwise.

It's true but there are kids' shows that don't let the marketing aspect get in the way of the quality of the writing, at least not to the point where it is so distracting.

Krutch

11-02-2015, 05:11 AM

Very, very slim chance of it ever happening. And if I had to guess, if it were ever to come to fruition, it'd be a limited 6 or 9 episode series to test the waters on Netflix or something. Kind of like how Out of the Shadows aimed for the more "mature" TMNT market, but wasn't given a full game budget.

Commenter 42

11-02-2015, 12:42 PM

Lol. I see.

It could happen, but only if Disney bought the rights. Viacom is too entrenched to do anything else.

CyberCubed

11-02-2015, 03:00 PM

I have to say, TMNT cartoons are the best "toy commercials" I have ever seen. Lots of shows don't even put effort in and you can tell they're just there as an advertisement, I never felt that way of any of the cartoons. Not even the original cartoon.

Powder

11-02-2015, 05:06 PM

Likewise, we're fortunate in that way. I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as neatoman seems to. I think the current creative team does a great way of working in what they must & weaving around the input/mandates of their "investors". :tlol:

Commenter 42

11-03-2015, 12:18 AM

I really dug the season premier, not sure if that's the ep that the op thought was too pushy.

If the toys were better, I'd buy.

Tetsu Deinonychus

11-13-2015, 07:09 PM

I think there is a problem with networks viewing action cartoons as always having to be toy driven, as opposed to comedy driven cartoons which are allowed to stand on their own a little more. This is what killed 2012 Thundercat's and Sym-bionic Titan. :cry:

As for TMNT, I think the sale to Viacom sealed that a TMNT show will always exist at least partially to promote toys. But, a toy driven show can still be good if the creative people they hire to make it still put their heart into making a good show. All three animated TMNT shows are proof of that.

I'd say the 2003 show is the least toy-driven. It existed as much because Peter Laird wanted a show that reflects the original comics better and because 4kids wanted to add more variety to a Saturday Morning block that was mostly butchered anime dubs, as it did to sell toys. And, had less toy inspired characters, vehicles, etc.as a result. (Not counting "Back to the Sewers" at least) .

The most toy driven IMO would be the original, but that's just because it's a product of it's time. It was the golden age of toy-driven cartoons after all. But, that's all just my opinion.

Maybe a DTV movie would be cool, though.

Powder

11-13-2015, 07:12 PM

The only time Playmates' involvement becomes obvious in the bulk of 4kids' series is with all the vehicles. :tlol: Mirage Don was not that savvy/resourceful...

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

11-13-2015, 07:19 PM

The only time Playmates' involvement becomes obvious in the bulk of 4kids' series is with all the vehicles. :tlol: Mirage Don was not that savvy/resourceful...

Definitely that, and later when the cartoon started "genre jumping" with Seasons 5, 6, and 7. All new characters AND costumes for the Turtles, just waiting for action figures to make their way into children's hands...

Except, we never even saw any toys from "Back to the Sewers", did we? Didn't the toyline end with the conclusion of "Fast Forward?"

Tetsu Deinonychus

11-13-2015, 07:22 PM

Yeah, I guess when I say the 2003 series is the least toy driven. I really mean the first few seasons.

veemonjosh

11-14-2015, 08:11 AM

Except, we never even saw any toys from "Back to the Sewers", did we? Didn't the toyline end with the conclusion of "Fast Forward?"

There were Back to the Sewers toys, but only a few (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a2YvPPurL.jpg).

ProactiveMan

11-14-2015, 10:16 PM

I think the only way you will see one-shot, animated Turtles movies would be if the rights were sold to Warner Bros or Disney, and one of their execs/producers felt a burning desire to make it happen. And don't get me wrong, WB and Disney would still produce a heavily merchandised kids show, but there could be a chance that some small animated projects would be made in parallel, by one of their in-house teams. I don't think Viacom is set up to do something like that.

Tetsu Deinonychus

11-14-2015, 11:27 PM

Yeah. That's probably because WB and Disney own DC and Marvel. Whereas I don't think Viacom owns IDW and so has no stake in promoting the comics themselves (from a business standpoint the comics exist to promote the show/toys).

Coola Yagami

11-15-2015, 06:13 PM

Yeah, I guess when I say the 2003 series is the least toy driven. I really mean the first few seasons.

Naw, they kept bringing in all these new characters and new vehicles and new costumes/outfits for the turtles. Even one of the first few episodes 'Darkness on the edge of Town' or whatever, had the Turtles jumping around on skateboards, rollerblades, bikes and whatnot to match the sports themed turtles.

Although the Nick Toon is heavily catching up to the variants, at least the 80's TMNT never wore any of their made-up extra outfits and gear from the toyline.

Tetsu Deinonychus

11-15-2015, 06:15 PM

Yeah, good point. I guess they've all been noticeably toy driven from the start.

MsMarvelDuckie

11-15-2015, 08:22 PM

Although the Nick Toon is heavily catching up to the variants, at least the 80's TMNT never wore any of their made-up extra outfits and gear from the toyline.

You forgot about Undercover Don.... And the Movie III Turtles and April. (Not ton-related, but STILL....) It's too bad we never got a full set of those "Undercover" turtles, though. They ALL had the trench coats and masks!

Leo656

11-15-2015, 08:33 PM

They totally missed the memo about a "disguise" not making you look more conspicuous. :lol: Although I get that was the point of the gag, "they stand out no matter what they do". But yeah.

MsMarvelDuckie

11-15-2015, 08:42 PM

Well, it IS kind of hard to disguise the fact that they have that huge shell on their backs, and three-digit hands. I mean, look at Raph in those photos from the cut scene in last year's film! No, nothing suspicious THERE.... :trazz::trolleye::twink::tlol:

Andrew NDB

11-15-2015, 08:46 PM

If such a show existed, would you be content to just watch said show, with no collectibles?

Absolutely. But this show isn't for you or I. Certainly not at our ages.

miru

11-30-2015, 04:15 PM

With the advent of Netflix, it's a bit more possible than it used to be.

Sabacooza

11-30-2015, 04:35 PM

Why not have a well done live action or animated web series made for the adult crowd that stays close to the source material?

Leo656

11-30-2015, 07:58 PM

Because the Powers-That-Be don't see any substantial profit in that. And really, there isn't any. No matter how many NetFlix subscriptions or DVDs or downloads they sold, they'd never recoup the investment on what it cost to make in the first place.

Not without an accompanying toy line. No company in the entire world would just go ahead and do a project like that "just because fans want it and deserve it". There has to be profit or it's pointless.

I don't have to like it but I do completely understand it.

Yoshimickster

11-30-2015, 09:36 PM

If it stayed an indie coming from 1984- SURE, but considering that satirical comic series somehow snowballed into one of the most marketable media franchises of all TIME its unlikely. Not saying it would be bad if they did though, just saying it'd be unlikely.

NYShell

12-03-2015, 05:25 PM

I don't like the Nickelodeon show. I gave it a chance for two seasons. I noticed how silly the show became. The quality of the product doesn't seem good in my opinion.

AnarkyLantern

12-14-2015, 01:29 PM

I just wanted to address the Disney reference earlier. Investors no longer consider Disney a content company but a consumer products one.

CyberCubed

12-14-2015, 03:37 PM

Maybe at best we can see the IDW comics adapted into a cartoon after it ends. Would love to see some of the IDW stories in animation.

Sabacooza

12-14-2015, 03:48 PM

Maybe at best we can see the IDW comics adapted into a cartoon after it ends. Would love to see some of the IDW stories in animation.I second that. That would be a dream come true.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

12-18-2015, 03:54 PM

2003 is probably as close we have been. It'll probably not happen as long as Nickelodeon owns TMNT.

Groverman62

01-12-2016, 06:43 PM

I think there are couple reasons.

1. The public perception of TMNT. The franchise is viewed by most as just goofy fun. The Fred Wolf cartoon has cemented that outlook. the 2012 is obligated to continue that trend. The people who view the turtles as simple good fun outnumber those who want to be more serious and complex.

2. Its an action show. Its rough being an action show nowadays. Getting jerked around by the network all the time and the need to sell toys. Sym Bionic Titans Thundercats and Young Justice were all fine shows but the toys just weren't selling. TMNT just doing whatever it can to stay avoid that fate, especially since Joshua and JR left after the first season.

Lets look at say Gravity Falls and Steven Universe. Both shows just seem to be silly comedies but really are actually deep and complex, and they are get away with that because they are not primarily action so they are not chained down by the need to sell toys.

GoldMutant

01-12-2016, 08:12 PM

The only way you can get a really good TMNT series is work with people in scripting an excellent narrative who share passion for the franchise. Perhaps incorporate elements of each part of the franchise (In a similar vein to Nick and IDW) while also standing strong on their own plots, characterizations, etc. The mythos of the franchise is oozing with potential to be a fantastic series, but the only way is either read a comic or make the series.

I get TMNT is meant to be geared for all audiences and at times for children, but the opportunities are brimming to make a great series, whether it be the next Batman: TAS or Daredevil is all up for debate. For now, your best bet is the 2003 series if you like it; otherwise, try and make your own series. Who knows, it could be a new series altogether. :)