Raph's Treatment on the show

[Groverman62]

So... on the subject of Raphael.

People say that he has been treated poorly. And yes he did not get any real focus in Season 3. But I wanna know has his character been mishandled or gotten wrong. in some way.

You could say that he is not tough as he was, I dont really see that. And some have said that the writers hate him. But I dont really agree with that, you dont have to hate a character to write them poorly.

What do you guys think?

[Sabacooza]

Being a Raphael fan, I can answer this. In the beginning, he was treated pretty well. He had spike as a pet that added to his character, he was afraid of bugs which is usually associated with the character which was fine and he even started to have a closer friendship with Casey which was expected. He had some pretty cool moments and seemed rather tough. as the series went on, Spike turned into Slash and later Slash's interaction and connection with Raph had disappeared, Casey was no longer best friends with him or it wasn't allowed to develop further, He was then afraid of horses and now being in space. It also started to develop that Raph was the go to character for being the butt of the jokes as well as being incapacitated and having to be rescued all the time. He is usually always made to be wrong and never saves the day. He was made into a pretty weak character unfortunately. Because of all this, I felt the writers and producers hated the character. Now that's a pretty strong statement and maybe they really don't but they have done nothing to make me feel otherwise. I really wanted my favorite turtle to shine here and there and be strong and protective like he should be. Maybe that will happen this season but I don't have much hope.

People can bash me for feeling the way I do. That's fine but if you're not a Raphael fan, you really won't understand. You won't see the flaws surrounding the character. When we watch the show, we're usually invested in the ones we like the most and not much else matters.

[Powder]

Oh, this thread again. Great.

How long before Rambo comes in to burn it down? :tlol:

[Autbot_Benz]

I am a Raphael fan and I see nothing wrong with his character portrayal. Raph doesn't need tons of development he is the smart ass tough guy turtle.

Oh, this thread again. Great.

How long before Rambo comes in to burn it down? :tlol:

Also Warhorse too

[plastroncafe]

Raph suffers from Worf syndrome, in that he's taken down and hurt to prove how formidable another character is.

As for his fears of things like bugs and horses, isn't that straight from Mirage?
The bug thing is...or at very least his dislike of creepy crawly things. I'd have to re-read the Feudal Japan stories to doublecheck on his dislike of horses...but I know it's not the first time I've seen that somewhere.

If possible though?
Could we lay off the No True Scotsman fallacies?
You can be a fan of Raph and not like a specific incarnation of him.

[GoldMutant]

(clears throat)

Read this thread on why people, myself included, have issues with the characterization of Raphael of this series. Though outdated, you'll get better answers: http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=51804

[Sabacooza]

Raph suffers from Worf syndrome, in that he's taken down and hurt to prove how formidable another character is.This I've also noticed. It can be frustrating to say the least.

[plastroncafe]

This I've also noticed and it's so frustrating.

And now you know exactly how I felt when Ciro went on his, "Girl characters get too powerful" tangent.

So given that, I'm not all that surprised by this kind of treatment of male characters as well.

[Ninturtle]

Being a Raphael fan, I can answer this. In the beginning, he was treated pretty well. He had spike as a pet that added to his character, he was afraid of bugs which is usually associated with the character which was fine and he even started to have a closer friendship with Casey which was expected. He had some pretty cool moments and seemed rather tough. as the series went on, Spike turned into Slash and later Slash's interaction and connection with Raph had disappeared, Casey was no longer best friends with him or it wasn't allowed to develop further, He was then afraid of horses and now being in space. It also started to develop that Raph was the go to character for being the butt of the jokes as well as being incapacitated and having to be rescued all the time. He is usually always made to be wrong and never saves the day. He was made into a pretty weak character unfortunately. Because of all this, I felt the writers and producers hated the character. Now that's a pretty strong statement and maybe they really don't but they have done nothing to make me feel otherwise. I really wanted my favorite turtle to shine here and there and be strong and protective like he should be. Maybe that will happen this season but I don't have much hope.

People can bash me for feeling the way I do. That's fine but if you're not a Raphael fan, you really won't understand. You won't see the flaws surrounding the character. When we watch the show, we're usually invested in the ones we like the most and not much else matters.

There's very few moments when Raph is the only turtle who needs to be saved , and Mikeys usually the one who's the but of jokes and Raphael makes a ton of sarcastic comments. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill my friend.

[Papenbrook]

And now you know exactly how I felt when Ciro went on his, "Girl characters get too powerful" tangent.

So given that, I'm not all that surprised by this kind of treatment of male characters as well.

That might have changed, though. Look at Mona Lisa.

[plastroncafe]

That might have changed, though. Look at Mona Lisa.

We needed a "bad girl" to take Karai's place while she's on the DL.

[Papenbrook]

We needed a "bad girl" to take Karai's place while she's on the DL.

What do you mean?

[plastroncafe]

What do you mean?

Which part? That Karai is on the DL?
She's not in the show, and likely won't be back until they return to Earth, which I'll wager won't be until the end of the season.

About Mona Lisa taking her place?
Ciro said that TMNT was full up with female characters, on account of the fact that they have a Good Girl (April) and a Bad Girl (Karai).

With Karai out of the picture there was a vacuum for a female character. Ta Da! Mona Lisa.

Any more than two and they're apparently too difficult to write, because they get too powerful.
To bring this back to the thread topic:

This is what I think is happening to Raph.
He's too powerful, so he has to be brought down some. You'll know a character is strong when he beats up, or knocks down, Raph. Because Raph is "the physically strong" one.

[victory_angel]

Which part? That Karai is on the DL?
She's not in the show, and likely won't be back until they return to Earth, which I'll wager won't be until the end of the season.

About Mona Lisa taking her place?
Ciro said that TMNT was full up with female characters, on account of the fact that they have a Good Girl (April) and a Bad Girl (Karai).

With Karai out of the picture there was a vacuum for a female character. Ta Da! Mona Lisa.

Any more than two and they're apparently too difficult to write, because they get too powerful.
To bring this back to the thread topic:

This is what I think is happening to Raph.
He's too powerful, so he has to be brought down some. You'll know a character is strong when he beats up, or knocks down, Raph. Because Raph is "the physically strong" one.

Mona Lisa abides by a code of honor and loves Raph out of mutual respect for him as a fighter, so I don't think she's libel to take Karai's place. Though there is the character Gwendoline Yeo is playing (don't know who yet) who is supposed to walk the line between good and evil, and then there is Valaxena.

[goodbadgeeky]

Personally, I feel the issue with Raphael is a general criticism for the show overall.

I think it just points out the issue overall with the series: Tone.

The tone is very much all over the place. For every step forward the show makes, it also then takes two steps back and it usually is tied to this very issue.The tone of the cahracters, the one of what they are trying to do... (either you're a drama, or a comedy or a dramedy. You can't be all three!)

The transition into last season into this season is a good example.

The season ended with The death of Splinter and the Mutanimals, April's Dad, the Shredder and well, THE EARTH!! lending it to be more of a dramedy (which I dig), but then despite showing them feel 1 second of sadness the group seem to cheer and forget that everyone died because Space is cool. Cowabunga..? :teek::trazz: My fiance who watches with me was like "Why are they so cheerful? Everyone they knew and loved just pretty much died. They'll have to fix that, right? Right?" <insert my rants on how they could fix it using previously created TMNT mythos things from the Fred Wolf to Archie Series.>

And then this season, it starts glum again only to realize.... Hey! Time Travel! W00t. But now we're on a race against time to stop the Triceratons from arriving on Earth and destroying it, even though I am guessing they are the cause of their own destiny unless they somehow inject the Turnstone or something.... to undo it! yet the episodes so far have been seemingly half-baked ways to justify putting old action figure characters into the show. Wrym, anyone? We're just killing time it feels like. And Mona Lisa, is a good example of the Raph angle. This should have been drawn out another episode or two. Oi.

Overall, I keep telling myself that this is not my TMNT show. It has fun stuff for me, but it is really for the new ADD-riddled generation of kids that consume this stuff. And it helps me be okay with it. (Though it doesn't stop me from ranting sometimes.)

[PangolinFeets]

This is my 2nd favorite version of Raph.

[srmff]

The tone is very much all over the place. For every step forward the show makes, it also then takes two steps back and it usually is tied to this very issue.The tone of the cahracters, the one of what they are trying to do... (either you're a drama, or a comedy or a dramedy. You can't be all three!)

The season ended with The death of Splinter and the Mutanimals, April's Dad, the Shredder and well, THE EARTH!! lending it to be more of a dramedy (which I dig), but then despite showing them feel 1 second of sadness the group seem to cheer and forget that everyone died because Space is cool. Cowabunga..? :teek::trazz: My fiance who watches with me was like "Why are they so cheerful?

Well could you not just call it a dramedy then? Nearly every episode has some drama and comedy. Dramedy seems to cover it. A dramedy is a comedy and a drama. That's one genre, not three. You wouldn't call something a dramedy, comedy and drama since dramedy is a combination of two genres.

In the season 2 finale they weren't happy at the end. The only person who seemed to be happy was Casey. No one else made any comment or expression that would imply they're happy. Leo definitely didn't seem happy.

As to this thread, there's already a thread with pages and pages of ranting that covers this. I don't feel that there's any need for a rehash of the same stuff.

[plastroncafe]

Mona Lisa abides by a code of honor and loves Raph out of mutual respect for him as a fighter, so I don't think she's libel to take Karai's place. Though there is the character Gwendoline Yeo is playing (don't know who yet) who is supposed to walk the line between good and evil, and then there is Valaxena.

The fact remains that the show runner has clearly stated the show can only have two female characters at any given time, because otherwise they get too powerful and difficult to write for.

So it's kind of no wonder that the characterizations of the male characters suffer as well.

[Groverman62]

When was that ever said?

[plastroncafe]

The Shell Shocked Podcast, which you can listen to here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/shellshocked/id584706376?mt=2

But here's a transcript of some of it:
https://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2013/11/17/ciro-nieli-and-female-characters-in-tmnt-open-thread/

[victory_angel]

The Shell Shocked Podcast, which you can listen to here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/shellshocked/id584706376?mt=2

But here's a transcript of some of it:
https://nymonsters.wordpress.com/2013/11/17/ciro-nieli-and-female-characters-in-tmnt-open-thread/

We would have to wait with this series, but from what we've seen of Mona Lisa so far. She is nothing like Karai, and she is the first love interest where the feelings reciprocated on both sides.


We have an unknown character to be introduced by Gwen Yeo plays a character that reoccurs through out season 4 and 5.
Auman describes the character as as walking line between good and evil. People are hoping for Lotus Blossom.

We also have another unknown character being played by Lucy Lawless.

Renet is likely to come back.

Valaxina was introduced in the first episode of the current season...I don't think they would have given her a name if they didn't intend to use her again later on. Even if it's just to hunt down the Turtles and get a reward from Dregg.

[Candy Kappa]

We would have to wait with this series, but from what we've seen of Mona Lisa so far. She is nothing like Karai, and she is the first love interest where the feelings reciprocated on both sides.

Not acting the same, but filling the same slot as Karai did. The bad Girl/Action Girl slot.

[plastroncafe]

We would have to wait with this series, but from what we've seen of Mona Lisa so far. She is nothing like Karai, and she is the first love interest where the feelings reciprocated on both sides.


We have an unknown character to be introduced by Gwen Yeo plays a character that reoccurs through out season 4 and 5.
Auman describes the character as as walking line between good and evil. People are hoping for Lotus Blossom.

We also have another unknown character being played by Lucy Lawless.

Renet is likely to come back.

Valaxina was introduced in the first episode of the current season...I don't think they would have given her a name if they didn't intend to use her again later on. Even if it's just to hunt down the Turtles and get a reward from Dregg.

Trust me, few people are waiting as hard as I am for there to be more than two female characters on the screen at the same time on this cartoon.

That there're going to be more is great. I'm looking forward to them.
But I remain unconvinced that they'll ever appear together, or that the show will break the Maxed Out At Two rule.
Time will tell.

[The Happy One]

Trust me, few people are waiting as hard as I am for there to be more than two female characters on the screen at the same time on this cartoon.

That there're going to be more is great. I'm looking forward to them.
But I remain unconvinced that they'll ever appear together, or that the show will break the Maxed Out At Two rule.
Time will tell.

Well from these new female voice actors coming in to the show I'm sure we will be seeing more girls in the future:D

[cookie jar]

We also have another unknown character being played by Lucy Lawless.

TMNT has a lot of female characters. We can speculate who will be that character. Maybe it will be Jhanna, a female alien warrior from the mirage comics and 2003 show. I think it would be cool if the character Lucy Lawless plays is a female warrior considering one important character she had played.

[Foombamaroom]

This incarnation of Raph isn't a disgrace. They haven't done anything out of character for him really, it's just lack of arcs that bothers me. I think that this Raphael is an amazing portrayal of the character, but they never go far with it. We never see his emotional side, his afraid side, etc. I've learned to get over it, though, because they don't really do any arcs with the Turtles anymore. Season 3 was a huge letdown, especially for Leo. They had the opportunity to have Leo go full PTSD and give him development and a journey, just like the 4kids show, but they didn't. They had the opportunity to have Raph turn to Shredder, but they didn't. This show doesn't do anything with the Turtles anymore. Seasons 1 and 2 they did, but now it's just flat characters throughout the whole season.

[Ninturtle]

This incarnation of Raph isn't a disgrace. They haven't done anything out of character for him really, it's just lack of arcs that bothers me. I think that this Raphael is an amazing portrayal of the character, but they never go far with it. We never see his emotional side, his afraid side, etc. I've learned to get over it, though, because they don't really do any arcs with the Turtles anymore. Season 3 was a huge letdown, especially for Leo. They had the opportunity to have Leo go full PTSD and give him development and a journey, just like the 4kids show, but they didn't. They had the opportunity to have Raph turn to Shredder, but they didn't. This show doesn't do anything with the Turtles anymore. Seasons 1 and 2 they did, but now it's just flat characters throughout the whole season.

I don't see how the turtles were any worse in season 3 , they're characterization was as good as it's ever been

[GoldMutant]

I already posted what I thought on the thread involving his characterization and focus, I say he is not getting proper limelight. My thoughts rest there, but I'll lay down my thoughts...

You got a great actor voicing Raphael in Sean Astin, a decent design with a thunderbolt scar largely in the unknowing and establish a pet in Spike and rivals like Xever. At first glance, season 1 and 2 balance him as the straight man in the house of "freaks"; often Raphael is balanced alongside the group. Normally, whenever he isn't the center of attention, his aggressive tone and sarcasm give Raph wit towards the situation. It also helps Raphael played the main hero in one of my personal favorite episodes "Slash and Destroy", further establishing a future conflict with the mutated Slash, originally Spike. So the potential is there with receiving opportunities, but then the holes are poked...

Season 3 butchers the character immensely beyond the saving grace the first two seasons left. Raphael was turned into a plant during "Within the Woods", turned into the Shredder's lackey in "Clash of the Mutanimals" for a brief stint, injured for no inexplicable reason in "Attack of the Mega Shredder!" and so on. Combine that in with him being the butt of the jokes as a so called "straight man" or middle child if you will. In addition, Raph also suffered a bit in season 2 where he was swapped with a Kraang in "Plan 10", turned into a turkey head in Mazes & Mutants", Karai spits in only his eyes in "Vengeance is Mine", unable to ride a horse in "Turtles in Time", and the space thing which I don't harbor a grudge here. See the problem?

Furthermore, name me one time in season 3 where he got actual focus alone in comparison to Leo, Don, and Mike. As far as I'm aware, it was only twice in the season, which were somewhat a balance in "Casey Jones vs. the Underworld" and taking limelight at the end of the season in "Dinosaurs Seen in Sewers!" Even if both are among the season's best, why did it take until the end of the season for a stand alone Raphael storyline; as far as I'm concerned one actual episode out of 26 is poor. That's how I see it, Raphael's balance has been off since the middle of season 2, making him a victim which shouldn't be his character. Add in a lackluster relationship with Mona and so far, it's not great for the character.

If Raphael is meant to be this tough guy, making him a sissy and unable to fight 8 times out of 10 and always suffering is poor handling. It's like my problem with this interpretation of Michelangelo being a goofball; these two are more than simply aggressive and goofball respectively, they are who they are in other version and both are adored. As far as I'm concerned, the horrible handling of both is painful to view, and ultimately as a Raph fan you're going to be :roll: a lot.

I don't see how the turtles were any worse in season 3 , they're characterization was as good as it's ever been

You mean like Mikey being a goofball in the Croaking for no reason after late season 2 development? Or Leo's injury inconsistent? Raph being a bigger wuss?

Season 3 murdered these characters both in writing and handling. Seth, Rob, Greg, and Sean do excellent in these roles, but there's no way I see them handled that good after season 2 besides Leo.

[BabyTurtles]

Well could you not just call it a dramedy then? Nearly every episode has some drama and comedy. Dramedy seems to cover it. A dramedy is a comedy and a drama. That's one genre, not three. You wouldn't call something a dramedy, comedy and drama since dramedy is a combination of two genres.

In the season 2 finale they weren't happy at the end. The only person who seemed to be happy was Casey. No one else made any comment or expression that would imply they're happy. Leo definitely didn't seem happy.

As to this thread, there's already a thread with pages and pages of ranting that covers this. I don't feel that there's any need for a rehash of the same stuff.

Yes, and Casey threw off the tone. All it takes is for one character to mess it up.

[ssjup81]

Trust me, few people are waiting as hard as I am for there to be more than two female characters on the screen at the same time on this cartoon.

That there're going to be more is great. I'm looking forward to them.
But I remain unconvinced that they'll ever appear together, or that the show will break the Maxed Out At Two rule.
Time will tell.Am I one of the few who really doesn't care one way or the other regarding this? I've honestly never thought about it. I just watch the show...

This incarnation of Raph isn't a disgrace. They haven't done anything out of character for him really, it's just lack of arcs that bothers me. I think that this Raphael is an amazing portrayal of the character, but they never go far with it. We never see his emotional side, his afraid side, etc. I've learned to get over it, though, because they don't really do any arcs with the Turtles anymore. Season 3 was a huge letdown, especially for Leo. They had the opportunity to have Leo go full PTSD and give him development and a journey, just like the 4kids show, but they didn't. They had the opportunity to have Raph turn to Shredder, but they didn't. This show doesn't do anything with the Turtles anymore. Seasons 1 and 2 they did, but now it's just flat characters throughout the whole season.Can't really say we've never seen these things. We saw how scared he was when he thought Mikey was dead. We saw his reaction to Splinter being tossed down the drain. IMO, I feel he's one of the most emotional of the four. He acts tough, but is a softy inside. The way they did his kiss with Mona Lisa showed that to me. Overall he's a great character, imo. It would be nice if he had an ongoing story line like Leo or Donnie, but it still doesn't detract from my liking of him. I know this is my favorite incarnation of Raph. Love the personality balance.

[plastroncafe]

Am I one of the few who really doesn't care one way or the other regarding this? I've honestly never thought about it. I just watch the show...


I'm sure there are things about other shows that get your knickers in a twitch that wouldn't phase me in the slightest. This just happens to be one of mine.

For instance, I'm not the slightest bit bothered by the portrayal of Raph in the Nick Toon. I think he's great, and any flaws in his characterization are so well masked by the fantastic voice work by Astin that I don't even notice them until they're pointed out to me.

But I can easily see where the issues others have with the writing, and honestly I think they stem from the issues I do have with the show.
ie: weak writing and an over-reliance on stereotype.

[srmff]

Season 3 butchers the character immensely beyond the saving grace the first two seasons left. Raphael was turned into a plant during "Within the Woods", turned into the Shredder's lackey in "Clash of the Mutanimals" for a brief stint, injured for no inexplicable reason in "Attack of the Mega Shredder!" and so on. Combine that in with him being the butt of the jokes as a so called "straight man" or middle child if you will. In addition, Raph also suffered a bit in season 2 where he was swapped with a Kraang in "Plan 10", turned into a turkey head in Mazes & Mutants", Karai spits in only his eyes in "Vengeance is Mine", unable to ride a horse in "Turtles in Time", and the space thing which I don't harbor a grudge here. See the problem?

I don't see how any of this made him a wuss. Raph had no control over these situations. They've all been mind controlled in the past. It didn't make me think any less of them :tconfuse: . So what? Leo was a wuss in IDW for being mind controlled. It just increased the level of urgency.

In Attack of the Mega Shredder, they weren't allowed to attack Shredder's lair without him being at peak fitness. Does this not highlight how important he is in the team?

Becoming a plant, not his fault. It again raised the stakes because Raph, the fighter, wasn't able to help and the audience were left wondering how he'd return to his original form.

Once again, I don't see how a brain switch makes him look weaker. He had no control. It wouldn't have a bit of difference to me which turtle was switched. Casey and April were switched.

His head became a turkey. It was a gag. Donnie's head turned into a pineapple and as we know, Raph's head also didn't really turn into a turkey. It was all an illusion thing.

Some people don't like horse riding? Why is that Raph being afraid of bugs is okay but because it has been in other iterations it's okay? No one's bothered by that. Nick just can't add anything new, no new fears. I don't get it. It wouldn't make me think any less of a person for having a fear. My mum doesn't really like horse, nice to look at, but never trusted them. She much preferred donkeys.

Was it not discussed that Karai spitting in Raph's eye could have been a reference SAINW since Mikey's arm was injured and Leo was blinded?

I understand that people might want more Raph centred episodes but I don't think any of these examples make him look like a 'wuss'. I don't think Raph is a wuss full stop. He still fights and protects family like all the others.

[GoldMutant]

I don't see how any of this made him a wuss. Raph had no control over these situations. They've all been mind controlled in the past. It didn't make me think any less of them :tconfuse: . So what? Leo was a wuss in IDW for being mind controlled. It just increased the level of urgency.

In Attack of the Mega Shredder, they weren't allowed to attack Shredder's lair without him being at peak fitness. Does this not highlight how important he is in the team?

Becoming a plant, not his fault. It again raised the stakes because Raph, the fighter, wasn't able to help and the audience were left wondering how he'd return to his original form.

Once again, I don't see how a brain switch makes him look weaker. He had no control. It wouldn't have a bit of difference to me which turtle was switched. Casey and April were switched.

His head became a turkey. It was a gag. Donnie's head turned into a pineapple and as we know, Raph's head also didn't really turn into a turkey. It was all an illusion thing.

Some people don't like horse riding? Why is that Raph being afraid of bugs is okay but because it has been in other iterations it's okay? No one's bothered by that. Nick just can't add anything new, no new fears. I don't get it. It wouldn't make me think any less of a person for having a fear. My mum doesn't really like horse, nice to look at, but never trusted them. She much preferred donkeys.

Was it not discussed that Karai spitting in Raph's eye could have been a reference SAINW since Mikey's arm was injured and Leo was blinded?

I understand that people might want more Raph centred episodes but I don't think any of these examples make him look like a 'wuss'. I don't think Raph is a wuss full stop. He still fights and protects family like all the others.

Like I said, for being the so called "protector" of the group, he's far from it. It's poor writing to constantly derail a character this much; Raphael might have a lot of attention in previous versions, but I don't get why this happens.

Clash of the Mutanimals: Beyond the mind control, it's still a poor episode and my second least favorite of the series besides the Croaking. Even then, Raph is out of character in rage for.... no reason whatsoever. The resolution of saving him is so out of place, being a major issue; it's a good thing you brought up Dark Leo though. Remember how they saved Leo was Raph bringing him back to normal through a hug, correct? Why couldn't Mikey save Raph, the insults were just an out of place way; kindness kills, might have worked.

WtW: Did the plot hold any relevance of Raph going into a regular Turtle? Did it impact him or anyone else down the line? No, they didn't do anything with it and went with a quick fix. How did Donnie fix him that fast off screen, it should have been a small arc leading into another Northampton episode.

Mega Shredder: No, they didn't do anything with the injury, especially because next episode he's fine too. Importance or not, you can make the same exact argument for each turtle or group member, they didn't address this issue in a subplot either. The only noticeable thing is Casey looking angry at Raph stopping him from heading out through dialogue, nothing else.

Plan 10 and M&M: Again, why is it him changed at all? You could very well easily could have chosen Donnie in both these episodes as the person; just imagine Donnie sinking the Technodrome offline. And the "turkey head" wasn't a gag unlike the pineapple head, it was a focal point in the episode until Raph believed. It's very grating transforming this character is the only way to get people interested, it's a repetitive idea constantly utilized.

ViM: Like I said before, no plot development other than a plausible idea of Raph hating Karai. Do you notice a constant pattern with these issues with Raph? I sure notice it.

TiT: There's doing a joke, then there's literally beating a dead horse. Raph already struggles with bugs and emotions, why isn't another character getting the horse issue? It's not funny, it's purely an insult.

The reason I brought up each example is simple: they go absolutely nowhere for a plot. None of these are addressed, they are poorly resolved, repetitive gags, and not a damn relevant addition to the series. The character goes nowhere, gets no development, and the very concept of being tough with a soft spot is long dead. He isn't a tough guy in the slightest, I want a constant balance which is what this show lacks for Raph based on the writing. The same can be said for any Turtle based on who you favor Turtle wise, but as of now Raph is the one limited the most.

[PangolinFeets]

TMNT has a lot of female characters. We can speculate who will be that character. Maybe it will be Jhanna, a female alien warrior from the mirage comics and 2003 show. I think it would be cool if the character Lucy Lawless plays is a female warrior considering one important character she had played.

That's what I'm hoping for. I'm really excited. :D

[Ninturtle]

I already posted what I thought on the thread involving his characterization and focus, I say he is not getting proper limelight. My thoughts rest there, but I'll lay down my thoughts...

You got a great actor voicing Raphael in Sean Astin, a decent design with a thunderbolt scar largely in the unknowing and establish a pet in Spike and rivals like Xever. At first glance, season 1 and 2 balance him as the straight man in the house of "freaks"; often Raphael is balanced alongside the group. Normally, whenever he isn't the center of attention, his aggressive tone and sarcasm give Raph wit towards the situation. It also helps Raphael played the main hero in one of my personal favorite episodes "Slash and Destroy", further establishing a future conflict with the mutated Slash, originally Spike. So the potential is there with receiving opportunities, but then the holes are poked...

Season 3 butchers the character immensely beyond the saving grace the first two seasons left. Raphael was turned into a plant during "Within the Woods", turned into the Shredder's lackey in "Clash of the Mutanimals" for a brief stint, injured for no inexplicable reason in "Attack of the Mega Shredder!" and so on. Combine that in with him being the butt of the jokes as a so called "straight man" or middle child if you will. In addition, Raph also suffered a bit in season 2 where he was swapped with a Kraang in "Plan 10", turned into a turkey head in Mazes & Mutants", Karai spits in only his eyes in "Vengeance is Mine", unable to ride a horse in "Turtles in Time", and the space thing which I don't harbor a grudge here. See the problem?

Furthermore, name me one time in season 3 where he got actual focus alone in comparison to Leo, Don, and Mike. As far as I'm aware, it was only twice in the season, which were somewhat a balance in "Casey Jones vs. the Underworld" and taking limelight at the end of the season in "Dinosaurs Seen in Sewers!" Even if both are among the season's best, why did it take until the end of the season for a stand alone Raphael storyline; as far as I'm concerned one actual episode out of 26 is poor. That's how I see it, Raphael's balance has been off since the middle of season 2, making him a victim which shouldn't be his character. Add in a lackluster relationship with Mona and so far, it's not great for the character.

If Raphael is meant to be this tough guy, making him a sissy and unable to fight 8 times out of 10 and always suffering is poor handling. It's like my problem with this interpretation of Michelangelo being a goofball; these two are more than simply aggressive and goofball respectively, they are who they are in other version and both are adored. As far as I'm concerned, the horrible handling of both is painful to view, and ultimately as a Raph fan you're going to be :roll: a lot.



You mean like Mikey being a goofball in the Croaking for no reason after late season 2 development? Or Leo's injury inconsistent? Raph being a bigger wuss?

Season 3 murdered these characters both in writing and handling. Seth, Rob, Greg, and Sean do excellent in these roles, but there's no way I see them handled that good after season 2 besides Leo.

You mean that 2 minute scene in that episode , and apparently Raph having a few moments when bad things happen to him makes him a wuss? I don't see your problem with these characters.

[GoldMutant]

You mean that 2 minute scene in that episode , and apparently Raph having a few moments when bad things happen to him makes him a wuss? I don't see your problem with these characters.

The entire episode is okay at best stand alone on regular viewing, but as an issue with questionable writing and decisions in the episode, Clash is a bad episode in comparison to other mind controlled episodes I've seen. Not only does it undermine the previous episode, it does nothing to impact the story outside setting up the eventual control of Karai; honestly, no care for Raph came here, making Leo seem like a hypocrite as his actions were identical to Raph. Take for example busting in earlier, when Raph did that, ridicule came; when Leo did it, nobody bats an eye. As for the Turtles.....

Leo: Personally got nothing against this character, he's the most developed and honestly can't criticize him. Tons of development made him what he is; sure people complain he's a Sue, but it happens rarely.

Raph: I've said this several times, he's heldback, derailed into a laughing stock, gets no development or actual plot, and severely screwed in this show by removing features that made him good. There's no balance between soft hearted and being a tough guy, it's primarily the former while suffering every turn. I've said it several times now and I don't like repeating it.

Mikey: I can go on and on about his goofball self one minute after being mature. I know for a fact this Michelangelo can handle an episode on his own, especially because of anything involving Leatherhead and the savage outfit. Why is it Mikey can be creative and ultimately an emotional yet caring being then next minute his immaturity takes control? That's not development, it's derailment because this character can do much more.

Don: Barring the crush which I don't mind, this Donnie gets a ton of plot, just nothing of substance or something that works. In season 1 I saw and some of season 2, but really Donnie just gets little to work for me to like the character outside Rob Paulsen.

[ssjup81]

I'm sure there are things about other shows that get your knickers in a twitch that wouldn't phase me in the slightest. This just happens to be one of mine.It's super rare and usually contained to maybe an episode of said series, like maybe I would've preferred if something that had occurred had been done differently...but I also don't watch much television, so maybe that's why. I watch this show, NCIS, Law & Order: SVU, South Park, and Sonic Boom regularly....so yeah maybe that's why... I just don't think much about shows (Nick Turtles) aimed at seven-year-olds...

[Aaronardo]

I think a fairly large problem with how badly the characterization of these Turtles has become in Season 3 (besides, you know, the other problems that have been pointed out in this thread so far), can be attributed to how I can't really point out anywhere in memory where there's been any sort of character development.

It's my problem with Clash of the Mutanimals and its GoldMutant's problem, as well. At this point, we had gone a whole season that's had barely anything of substance (and, if any, it was one-off), so when the showrunners tell us that Clash of the Mutanimals is going to start an arc, we rightfully believed them, thus balancing all the filler in the season with something of some actual substance (and about damn time, too). None of the Turtles came out better because of the events of the episode, and it's an overall useless episode in the long run.

But back to my main point: Think hard about Seasons 1 and 2, and think about when the Turtles' characters actually had development. This kind of thing is normally best handled in one, what I call a Wham Scene. I think about Enemy of My Enemy, with Leo talking to his brothers about his mistake of simply believing what he wanted to. I can definitely see Leo's development here (and, hell, Leo's had some damn good development in the show as a whole up until Season 3, where they completely butchered their best opportunity). What about Mutagen Man Unleashed? Here we have a scene of Donnie talking to Timothy about April, convincing himself that he's nothing to April but a freak. Again, a great scene for the development for the character.

And there are, of course, other scenes for these two, as well as scenes for the other Turtles (Raph: Slash and Destroy; Mikey: Into Dimension X). Now, think hard about Season 3. Besides that strong scene in the opener with Leo rising to the challenge to rescue his brothers from The Creep despite his leg and the entirety of Vision Quest (which yielded no results either way), I personally couldn't think of anything off the top of my head. So, I took to a list of episodes of Season 3. I still couldn't think of anything. All I can conclude from this is that Season 3 is not only a weak season when it comes to character development, but a weak season in general. And I agree with that conclusion. But hey, that's just my two cents.

tl;dr: Season 3 is inferior especially in comparison to Seasons 1-2 in character development.

I just don't think much about shows (Nick Turtles) aimed at seven-year-olds...
Then you have hardly any respect for Writing as an art form. It should not matter if a show is aimed at seven-year-olds or seventeen-year-olds. Bad writing is bad writing, and good writing is good writing. And really, all we want is good writing. Is that really too much to ask for?

[Ninturtle]

I think a fairly large problem with how badly the characterization of these Turtles has become in Season 3 (besides, you know, the other problems that have been pointed out in this thread so far), can be attributed to how I can't really point out anywhere in memory where there's been any sort of character development.

It's my problem with Clash of the Mutanimals and its GoldMutant's problem, as well. At this point, we had gone a whole season that's had barely anything of substance (and, if any, it was one-off), so when the showrunners tell us that Clash of the Mutanimals is going to start an arc, we rightfully believed them, thus balancing all the filler in the season with something of some actual substance (and about damn time, too). None of the Turtles came out better because of the events of the episode, and it's an overall useless episode in the long run.

But back to my main point: Think hard about Seasons 1 and 2, and think about when the Turtles' characters actually had development. This kind of thing is normally best handled in one, what I call a Wham Scene. I think about Enemy of My Enemy, with Leo talking to his brothers about his mistake of simply believing what he wanted to. I can definitely see Leo's development here (and, hell, Leo's had some damn good development in the show as a whole up until Season 3, where they completely butchered their best opportunity). What about Mutagen Man Unleashed? Here we have a scene of Donnie talking to Timothy about April, convincing himself that he's nothing to April but a freak. Again, a great scene for the development for the character.

And there are, of course, other scenes for these two, as well as scenes for the other Turtles (Raph: Slash and Destroy; Mikey: Into Dimension X). Now, think hard about Season 3. Besides that strong scene in the opener with Leo rising to the challenge to rescue his brothers from The Creep despite his leg and the entirety of Vision Quest (which yielded no results either way), I personally couldn't think of anything off the top of my head. So, I took to a list of episodes of Season 3. I still couldn't think of anything. All I can conclude from this is that Season 3 is not only a weak season when it comes to character development, but a weak season in general. And I agree with that conclusion. But hey, that's just my two cents.

tl;dr: Season 3 is inferior especially in comparison to Seasons 1-2 in character development.


Then you have hardly any respect for Writing as an art form. It should not matter if a show is aimed at seven-year-olds or seventeen-year-olds. Bad writing is bad writing, and good writing is good writing. And really, all we want is good writing. Is that really too much to ask for?

The show is pretty well written a majority of times I'm entertained, I'd like the show to be darker and have more character development but even with out that it's still obvious the creaters care about what they're doing. The action is still great the writing is still funny, the VA's do an excellent job, the animation is still splendid there's so much good to focus on that the flaws seen extremely minor in comparison.

[myconius]

i like the way the writing has Raph usually Questioning Leo, making fun of Donnie or bullying Mikey.

the only thing i feel is missing is they need to show more of the Raph/Casey friendship.

in the episode 'The Good, the Bad, and Casey Jones' their friendship felt forced to me.
and they really haven't shown too much bonding after that.

as the series goes Casey seems to have chemistry with Mikey, and that's cool and all.
but they need to establish more of the bond between Raph and Casey.

[Aaronardo]

The show is pretty well written a majority of times I'm entertained, I'd like the show to be darker and have more character development but even with out that it's still obvious the creaters care about what they're doing. The action is still great the writing is still funny, the VA's do an excellent job, the animation is still splendid there's so much good to focus on that the flaws seen extremely minor in comparison.

I wanna make it clear that I'm not saying the show is bad, necessarily, just noticably inferior to other 'toons on the air right now, and to its own first two seasons.

With that out of the way, I'll just leave it with, hey, if you think a show with grossly underdeveloped characters (for the tone they're going for), limited humor that's turned to "hey! Look how random we can be!", and has gotten so tired of itself that the only thing that has improved is the animation (even the fight scenes aren't what they used to be), hey, go nuts. I'll still watch the show (it pumps out a good episode every, let's say, a month), but I probably won't be as nuts for the show as you. That's just different tastes, I suppose.

[Ninturtle]

I wanna make it clear that I'm not saying the show is bad, necessarily, just noticably inferior to other 'toons on the air right now, and to its own first two seasons.

With that out of the way, I'll just leave it with, hey, if you think a show with grossly underdeveloped characters (for the tone they're going for), limited humor that's turned to "hey! Look how random we can be!", and has gotten so tired of itself that the only thing that has improved is the animation (even the fight scenes aren't what they used to be), hey, go nuts. I'll still watch the show (it pumps out a good episode every, let's say, a month), but I probably won't be as nuts for the show as you. That's just different tastes, I suppose.

The humor isn't just " how random can we be " it's usually because the dialogue is funny because of the characters traits ( Fugitoid's a great example ) or they have a pretty neat reference. And the fight scenes aren't any worse then they used to be and every episode has a pretty solid fight. I think the show took a drop from season 1 and season 3 is around the same quality as 2 was minus the first few episodes, the humor and writing quality is about the same.

[Sabacooza]

There's very few moments when Raph is the only turtle who needs to be saved , and Mikeys usually the one who's the but of jokes and Raphael makes a ton of sarcastic comments. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill my friend.You're wrong on all accounts but if that's how you want to roll with it then good for you. You're able to enjoy the show for what it is, flaws and all. Goldmutant and a few others have already explained why Raph is treated poorly better than I ever could.

[The Happy One]

What show are you watching? When you actually get a clue then come back and have an educated conversation with me.

Well...it is somewhat true. I mean, how many times is Raph the lone turtle in distress? Not many, by my count. All in all Raph is just fine for me. Yeah, there are a few things like his brashness that could be better- but you just gotta wait and see, y'know. The show is still going strong and i think Raph's character is as well. :D

[The Happy One]

The humor isn't just " how random can we be " it's usually because the dialogue is funny because of the characters traits ( Fugitoid's a great example ) or they have a pretty neat reference. And the fight scenes aren't any worse then they used to be and every episode has a pretty solid fight. I think the show took a drop from season 1 and season 3 is around the same quality as 2 was minus the first few episodes, the humor and writing quality is about the same.

Agreed. These writers work very hard, pal. You can’t just discard everything they accomplish because you, personally, didn't enjoy an episode. Nothing is at all random. Everything is articulated and they take their jobs very, very seriously. So...before you say that these guys are basically the writers for Teen Titans Go...let's look back at really how this show delivers and then some. It just wasn't your cup of tea this week- and that's okay, too:)

[Sabacooza]

Well...it is somewhat true. I mean, how many times is Raph the lone turtle in distress? Not many, by my count. All in all Raph is just fine for me. Yeah, there are a few things like his brashness that could be better- but you just gotta wait and see, y'know. The show is still going strong and i think Raph's character is as well. :DAgain, if that's what you believe, that's fine but there is tons of evidence to prove otherwise.

[Alph_shinn]

well, with the TMNT nick show until now...I'm quite(maybe a lot) disappointed to the describe on the Turtles, especially Raph...

In Within Woods episode, the trivia on Raph's plot quite similar with the V1 story Old Man River, in the story Raph turn back to a normal turtle, but still will bite the enemy to attack them. But in the show, become a plant like dog, nothing to say about this, well, maybe because Raph is actually a soft guy, after mutated will become the real of him.

Still hoping official will release the River's Story Arc someday.

Now, the bug.
I don't know what the different between HATE and AFRAID or SCARE.
In the V1 story, Raph is hate the bloodsucker
And the 03 series, Raph had said he hates bugs
In the 12 series character setting, Raph is hate foot clan and bugs, and seem hard as nails but really is a big softy.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t31.0-8/12182797_1096633793680246_770047581949429077_o.jpg
but in the series I see nothing but scare for the roach.

Anyway, I don't know.
But Raph still my favor char, that's all.

[Ninturtle]

You're wrong on all accounts but if that's how you want to roll with it then good for you. You're able to enjoy the show for what it is, flaws and all. Goldmutant and a few others have already explained why Raph is treated poorly better than I ever could.

How am I wrong ? There's like 3 times Raph needs to be saved alone and just because bad things happen to him doesn't mean he's handled poorly.

[plastroncafe]

I just don't think much about shows (Nick Turtles) aimed at seven-year-olds...

Good for you?
I mean, it's not like it's a requirement that people think critically about the media they consume.

[kelligrafie]

People can bash me for feeling the way I do. That's fine but if you're not a Raphael fan, you really won't understand. You won't see the flaws surrounding the character. When we watch the show, we're usually invested in the ones we like the most and not much else matters.

I think people can and do understand perfectly well, without being 'Raphael fans'. For you to think that unless we're Raph fanboys/girls we won't 'get it', is quite patronising really.

We all have our favourites and we'd all wish for certain story lines or events for them to encounter. We'd all like the writers to 'handle' them a certain way.

But unless we ourselves are a writer on the show, we have to face facts that more often than not, it's not going to happen 100% according to our own individual plans.

We also have to face facts that the show isn't written for our individual benefit. They have an enormous variety of people to please.

Some people want hardcore nutter Raph. Some want soft as pie, sensitive Raph. Both are different but equally valid interpretations.

Someone's going to be disappointed whatever route they take.

And yes I would describe myself as a Raphael fan.

[The Happy One]

I think people can and do understand perfectly well, without being 'Raphael fans'. For you to think that unless we're Raph fanboys/girls we won't 'get it', is quite patronising really.

We all have our favourites and we'd all wish for certain story lines or events for them to encounter. We'd all like the writers to 'handle' them a certain way.

But unless we ourselves are a writer on the show, we have to face facts that more often than not, it's not going to happen 100% according to our own individual plans.

We also have to face facts that the show isn't written for our individual benefit. They have an enormous variety of people to please.

Some people want hardcore nutter Raph. Some want soft as pie, sensitive Raph. Both are different but equally valid interpretations.

Someone's going to be disappointed whatever route they take.

And yes I would describe myself as a Raphael fan.

Oh my gosh, PREACH!
Yes, this is so accurate!

[ssjup81]

Good for you?
I mean, it's not like it's a requirement that people think critically about the media they consume.I should've reworded that. "I guess I just don't think much about shows aimed at seven-year-olds", meaning it's not a conscious thing.

[Aaronardo]

You can’t just discard everything they accomplish because you, personally, didn't enjoy an episode.

I didn't enjoy A Foot Too Big. But you know what? I discarded it as more of a hiccup episode. More episodes came and went, I didn't like The Croaking or Eye of the Chimera (and that one was actually written by a writer I highly respect), and the season went on and on, Clash of the Mutanimals was annoying, Battle for New York was depressing as we were all expecting something to happen, but it just felt like, well, nothing, to me. It's gotten to the point where the last two seasons have had a lot more "hiccup" episodes than good episodes. (Hell, Season 4 has been nothing but hiccup episodes so far).

It's not that I didn't enjoy an episode, it's that I didn't enjoy multiple episodes and for multiple valid reasons.

So...before you say that these guys are basically the writers for Teen Titans Go...let's look back at really how this show delivers and then some. It just wasn't your cup of tea this week- and that's okay, too:)

Woah woah woah. Hold it. None of us ever said that the writing of this show is on par or even close to Teen Titans Go. That show is utter garbage and honestly would've been cancelled by now if it didn't get such a huge following for no reason. I've never said any of the episodes of this show are bad (however, I could probably pick one or two out of the bunch), I just said there are multiple episodes with multiple problems that cause problems for the show as a whole.

And there again, I actually enjoyed this week's a little bit more than most episodes recently. Now, that doesn't mean I thought it was good. It really just felt to me like, "eh, that happened". I'm not talking about this week, I'm talking about this year, or moreso the last year and a half. The show has just gotten worse and worse and I used to be like you -- I didn't want to believe it -- but it really has gotten worse.

I mean, my argument would always be "Return to New York was cool! Vision Quest was amazing!" but it just got harder and harder to stand by this show until it finally really set in to me. Yes, the show does deliver in some cases. I mean, Annihilation: Earth and Dinosaurs Seen In the Sewers are a phenomenal two episodes, but that's just what they are. Two episodes. In a season that's filled at least over halfway with mediocre to okay episodes. You can't judge a show by one episode when the rest of the show isn't on par with that one episode.

Now I just wanna reiterate one more time, I'm not saying the show is bad. I'm not saying any of the episodes are bad. I'm saying it's generated problems with itself that they need to just get a hold of (and there are multiple easy fixes, and being lazy about it isn't one of them).

Oh, and on the subject of Raph. He's not portrayed horribly in this show, but he's definitely got the worst of it out of the four in this show. When was the last time you ever saw Raph be a badass? Seriously. When? The last time I can remember, personally, is in Cockroach Terminator, an episode that premiered over two years ago. I mean, if they want to make fun of Raph by making him the butt of jokes the way they do, it'd probably be funny if we actually saw him be more like the actual characterization of Raphael. And, hell, if you want a big softie Raph, guess what? The last time we saw him as a big softie at all was in "Within The Woods", the Season 3 premiere. Hasn't been like that since then. At all. In fact, not being able to stay consistent with his characterization is exactly why this incarnation of Raph is a bad character.

[plastroncafe]

Woah woah woah. Teen Titans Go! is a masterwork of a post-modern take down of tropes which all but smother the superhero genre.

Plus it's disturbing as all get out, but in the best of all possible ways.

(All I know is pain.)
You are right though, the writing on the Nick Toon doesn't compare to TTG.
TTG is consistent from episode to episode, something the Nick Toon has yet to achieve. Though...TTG does have the advantage of 10 minute episodes.

[ssjup81]

Aaronardo: Too bad you didn't enjoy those eps. I liked a Foot Too Big because it was funny for the Finger and my nostalgic WWF feels and missing the old days where Piper was nuts, Jesse was outrageous, and Hulk Hogan actually existed. I liked the Croaking because Napoleon Dynamite is one of my favorite movies (but I did dislike the reason for Mikey leaving). I guess, for me, I like something about every episode, including the ones that were so-so to me (Wyrm ep...but loved the references) or just didn't care for (Yokai ep for petty reasons, but I liked how we learned of their backgrounds and other things were pretty cool). It's sad when folks can't enjoy a show, though. I'm sorry that you can't. :-(

[Candy Kappa]

When was the last time you ever saw Raph be a badass? Seriously. When?

soo... Climbing up a ice mountain wall with no safety measures, without any difficulties. And taking out two ice dragons within 5 seconds, one being decapitated in a shower of ice-body bits... Is not badass to you?

jeez Louise, what's badass to you? nothing less then destroying the whole moon they where stranded on and taking out the whole Triceraton army single handed afterwards?

[srmff]

And, hell, if you want a big softie Raph, guess what? The last time we saw him as a big softie at all was in "Within The Woods", the Season 3 premiere. Hasn't been like that since then. At all. In fact, not being able to stay consistent with his characterization is exactly why this incarnation of Raph is a bad character.

Ah was Raph not a big softie just two episodes ago in the 'The Moons of Thales 3' with Mona?

[PangolinFeets]

I wanna make it clear that I'm not saying the show is bad, necessarily, just noticably inferior to other 'toons on the air right now, and to its own first two seasons.



I'm genuinely curious, because I hardly see other cartoon series with an overarching, deeper plot, which other toons are you talking about? I'm enjoying Steven Universe and that's about it.

[The Happy One]

I didn't enjoy A Foot Too Big. But you know what? I discarded it as more of a hiccup episode. More episodes came and went, I didn't like The Croaking or Eye of the Chimera (and that one was actually written by a writer I highly respect), and the season went on and on, Clash of the Mutanimals was annoying, Battle for New York was depressing as we were all expecting something to happen, but it just felt like, well, nothing, to me. It's gotten to the point where the last two seasons have had a lot more "hiccup" episodes than good episodes. (Hell, Season 4 has been nothing but hiccup episodes so far).

It's not that I didn't enjoy an episode, it's that I didn't enjoy multiple episodes and for multiple valid reasons.



Woah woah woah. Hold it. None of us ever said that the writing of this show is on par or even close to Teen Titans Go. That show is utter garbage and honestly would've been cancelled by now if it didn't get such a huge following for no reason. I've never said any of the episodes of this show are bad (however, I could probably pick one or two out of the bunch), I just said there are multiple episodes with multiple problems that cause problems for the show as a whole.

And there again, I actually enjoyed this week's a little bit more than most episodes recently. Now, that doesn't mean I thought it was good. It really just felt to me like, "eh, that happened". I'm not talking about this week, I'm talking about this year, or moreso the last year and a half. The show has just gotten worse and worse and I used to be like you -- I didn't want to believe it -- but it really has gotten worse.

I mean, my argument would always be "Return to New York was cool! Vision Quest was amazing!" but it just got harder and harder to stand by this show until it finally really set in to me. Yes, the show does deliver in some cases. I mean, Annihilation: Earth and Dinosaurs Seen In the Sewers are a phenomenal two episodes, but that's just what they are. Two episodes. In a season that's filled at least over halfway with mediocre to okay episodes. You can't judge a show by one episode when the rest of the show isn't on par with that one episode.

Now I just wanna reiterate one more time, I'm not saying the show is bad. I'm not saying any of the episodes are bad. I'm saying it's generated problems with itself that they need to just get a hold of (and there are multiple easy fixes, and being lazy about it isn't one of them).

Oh, and on the subject of Raph. He's not portrayed horribly in this show, but he's definitely got the worst of it out of the four in this show. When was the last time you ever saw Raph be a badass? Seriously. When? The last time I can remember, personally, is in Cockroach Terminator, an episode that premiered over two years ago. I mean, if they want to make fun of Raph by making him the butt of jokes the way they do, it'd probably be funny if we actually saw him be more like the actual characterization of Raphael. In fact, not being able to stay consistent with his characterization is exactly why this incarnation of Raph is a bad character.

Phew...I'm glad that's cleared up.:)
For a second there I thought you were going in the direction of that this show is bad or something.
But, hey, if multiple eps aren't your cup of tea either then they aren't your cup of tea so I have no worrries about that

But just like the other dude before me just said,
When you have two sides of fans for one character- and this seems to especially happen with Raphael- you will ALWAYS have unhappy campers. Because the OT Raph had more sarcastic moments than badass, 2003 had pretty great badass and softie moments, the comics tend to lean more towards badass and this show I think is just exploring other traits that define Raph- besides being hotheaded or badass.

Now I talked to some huge Raph fans yesterday- my friend's kids and my older sister. :lol:
And we analysed a couple of things. The kids love Raph, while my sister did say she wished he had enough spotlight time where he literally stood for his family (which I think he has) but she said she's getting use to this softer approach as it shows his maturity throughout the show.

We also have noticed that the same thing happened throughout the 2003 show, but they took their time. This show just needs to take their time, I think. Smooth it out and pace it right. But other than that? What's there to complain about?


So, like I said, two sides of Raph fans.
But I think it's more of the pacing, like you also brought out, than the actual characterization.

But that's just me :D
And, yeah, Raph has been pretty badass. It's pretty much confirmed.

[Aaronardo]

I'm genuinely curious, because I hardly see other cartoon series with an overarching, deeper plot, which other toons are you talking about? I'm enjoying Steven Universe and that's about it.

Gravity Falls, Avatar: The Last Airbender, the 2003 series that preceded this show, the list goes on.

soo... Climbing up a ice mountain wall with no safety measures, without any difficulties. And taking out two ice dragons within 5 seconds, one being decapitated in a shower of ice-body bits... Is not badass to you?

jeez Louise, what's badass to you? nothing less then destroying the whole moon they where stranded on and taking out the whole Triceraton army single handed afterwards?

1. He had the advantage of being on a different planet, and thus, there are different laws of gravity (the show mentions this in-universe at one point or another).
2. He had a spacesuit. Maybe not important but putting that out there.
3. The dragons would've been a good moment for Raph if it had more of an impact, but as it is, it was forgettable. And I'm pretty sure it has to do with the fact that it almost immediately got overshadowed by the Mona Lisa thing. And maybe that, as you mentioned, it only lasted for five seconds. Plus, being badass =/= taking **** out with ease. Taking out the Cockroach Terminator was a struggle. Raph had never even seen those dragons before he took them down, and even if that is badass to you, it doesn't excuse the Mona Lisa bull that happens afterward.

Aaronardo: Too bad you didn't enjoy those eps. I liked a Foot Too Big because it was funny for the Finger and my nostalgic WWF feels and missing the old days where Piper was nuts, Jesse was outrageous, and Hulk Hogan actually existed. I liked the Croaking because Napoleon Dynamite is one of my favorite movies (but I did dislike the reason for Mikey leaving). I guess, for me, I like something about every episode, including the ones that were so-so to me (Wyrm ep...but loved the references) or just didn't care for (Yokai ep for petty reasons, but I liked how we learned of their backgrounds and other things were pretty cool). It's sad when folks can't enjoy a show, though. I'm sorry that you can't. :-(

My argument was directed to the people that were saying that the show is absolutely perfect and only slip up a couple of times and for nothing else.

Ah was Raph not a big softie just two episodes ago in the 'The Moons of Thales 3' with Mona?

Raph was a big softie with Spike when he had him. Whenever the two had scenes together, it would always be hilarious and kind of cute. Raph may have been a softie with Mona, but it wasn't any good. It was rushed and kinda forced, hence why I don't count it. It actually is so forced it doesn't even come off as him being soft and more just comes off as him being shoved into this "relationship" that hardly feels genuine.

I guess it's better explained this way: it's better to have things "happen" to a character to put their personality in the spotlight rather than to force things onto a character for the same outcome.

[Sabacooza]

I think people can and do understand perfectly well, without being 'Raphael fans'. For you to think that unless we're Raph fanboys/girls we won't 'get it', is quite patronising really.

We all have our favourites and we'd all wish for certain story lines or events for them to encounter. We'd all like the writers to 'handle' them a certain way.

But unless we ourselves are a writer on the show, we have to face facts that more often than not, it's not going to happen 100% according to our own individual plans.

We also have to face facts that the show isn't written for our individual benefit. They have an enormous variety of people to please.

Some people want hardcore nutter Raph. Some want soft as pie, sensitive Raph. Both are different but equally valid interpretations.

Someone's going to be disappointed whatever route they take.

And yes I would describe myself as a Raphael fan.Sorry if you feel that way, Yes there are varying degrees of Raph fans. For the record, I have no problem with Raph having a soft side. I loved how he cared for Leo on the farm and his interaction with spike.The Mona Lisa bit was too forced, rushed and out of character. It could've been handled better. The point is Raph is not nearly as respected in the show as he should be. I wish more people could actually see that but it is what it is.

Just because something has the TMNT name slapped on it doesn't mean it's a totally flawless product. As a consumer and supporter of the show, it's our responsibility to voice our concerns so that improvements can be made. I for one want the show to get better over time, not to be chained to a tired formula and slip into the realm of mediocrity. I want the characters to be handled equally and fairly. I still feel Raph needs serious help here but Mikey also does to a small degree. I don't want him to be known for being an idiot all the time. These fixes can be made considering the show used to be pretty equal and solid in Season one.

[ssjup81]

Aaronardo: I see. For me, the Yokai ep is my most disliked ep of this series so far, but it's for petty reasons. That aside, it's still sad, though when some can no longer enjoy something.

Savacooza: Surprisingly, I didn't find Raph's being attracted to Mona for being a strong fighter out of character at all. It felt right in-character to me given his personality. It also didn't feel forced to me...from HIS side. For Mona, it felt like it moved too fast (but definitely could see the respect she had for him)...but I kind of feel the circumstance they were in played into that. I also wonder if it was just more animalistic. You know, like how the peacock attracts a peahen by displaying his feathers. Raph displayed his strength and such, attracting her to him. Maybe for those of their species that's how it works. I also found it ironic how he's the only one of his brothers to like someone who reciprocated the feelings. In other words, it was mutual on both sides.

Anyway, the main thing that surprised me was how open Raph was when talking about her to the others. I was expecting one of the others (Mikey mostly) teasing or picking up on his liking of Mona Lisa and his adamantly denying it and threatening to pound anyone who said otherwise. Oh well, I still thought it was cute, especially the kiss and Raph doing the cheesy leg thing.

[Shark_Blade]

I see nothing with how he's been treated so far.

He's rough and tough for sure, but he's not afraid to show a LOT of his feminine side too which is pretty bold and avant garde imo. None of his previous carnations are like that.

[The Happy One]

I see nothing with how he's been treated so far.

He's rough and tough for sure, but he's not afraid to show a LOT of his feminine side too which is pretty bold and avant garde imo. None of his previous carnations are like that.


Good point. I think Brandon, Ciro and the whole team should be applauded with what they've done with Raphael. They, like I said earlier, are exploring other aspects of Raph that other incarnations left out. Not saying any other is bad- not by a long shot- it's just each incarnation has shown us unique sides of each Turtle and Nick is going for the softer side. :D

I see no problem with that:)

[myconius]

hahahaha!!! when Raph lifted his leg up when snogging Mona Lisa, that was TOO much!!!!! :lol:

[GoldMutant]

Good point. I think Brandon, Ciro and the whole team should be applauded with what they've done with Raphael. They, like I said earlier, are exploring other aspects of Raph that other incarnations left out. Not saying any other is bad- not by a long shot- it's just each incarnation has shown us unique sides of each Turtle and Nick is going for the softer side. :D

I see no problem with that:)

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show? (Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.

[Sabacooza]

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show? (Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.Again, you hit the nail on the head. I applaud you.

[Tarris Vaal]

This does bring up a good point though - and not necessarily one that applies exclusively to Raph.

The consensus seems to be that - all in all - Nick does have plenty of good ideas for each of the turtles;

The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth

To take just a few you pointed out. And - as you stated as well - this applies to other things like Mikey learning from his goofiness and the assorted romance arcs.

The problem seems to be more than anything that these ideas appear and then have little to no continuing consequence. Stuff like the Slash feud was a great chance for ongoing development for Raph - but it didnt happen. Same said for the Dark Raph idea, aftershocks from the invasion, losing Splinter, heck even Mona Lisa could end up being something of a one shot.

I think thats the show's biggest weakness, is this unwillingness or incapability to explore a longer running character arc. And with those it Does explore to be dragged out or quietly forgotten (Karai topping the list here - I'm not completely convinced the Love triangle arc ended so much as faded to the background for a while.)

Either way, keeping this to the point of Raph in particular - this habit Nick seems to have of avoiding arcs has hit him really badly. So we do get this repeating style of making him the go to fall guy to prove the bad guy is really dangerous.

Ironically Raph has become equivalent to a Red Shirt.

I do wonder how different the show would be if it wasn't concerned about trying to keep its episodes more or less self contained for the sake of the channels showing them. Would Raph have fared much better if Nick knew it could rely on the episodes being shown in correct order all the time?

[BabyTurtles]

This does bring up a good point though - and not necessarily one that applies exclusively to Raph.

The consensus seems to be that - all in all - Nick does have plenty of good ideas for each of the turtles;



To take just a few you pointed out. And - as you stated as well - this applies to other things like Mikey learning from his goofiness and the assorted romance arcs.

The problem seems to be more than anything that these ideas appear and then have little to no continuing consequence. Stuff like the Slash feud was a great chance for ongoing development for Raph - but it didnt happen. Same said for the Dark Raph idea, aftershocks from the invasion, losing Splinter, heck even Mona Lisa could end up being something of a one shot.

I think thats the show's biggest weakness, is this unwillingness or incapability to explore a longer running character arc. And with those it Does explore to be dragged out or quietly forgotten (Karai topping the list here - I'm not completely convinced the Love triangle arc ended so much as faded to the background for a while.)

Either way, keeping this to the point of Raph in particular - this habit Nick seems to have of avoiding arcs has hit him really badly. So we do get this repeating style of making him the go to fall guy to prove the bad guy is really dangerous.

Ironically Raph has become equivalent to a Red Shirt.

I do wonder how different the show would be if it wasn't concerned about trying to keep its episodes more or less self contained for the sake of the channels showing them. Would Raph have fared much better if Nick knew it could rely on the episodes being shown in correct order all the time?

Do you know how many episodes Mikey has to screw up/be ignored and then prove himself? That's like pretty much all his episodes except like a few. (then again I haven't watched the later part of season 3 and nothing of 4 so...if someone wants to prove me wrong...). It's like having Raph have a temper tantrum episode every single time.....

You'd think the writers would get tired of repeating themselves.


the problem with Nick is that it's trying to be grand without all the effort needed to actually obtain that.....:ohwell: ......all they do is try and shock you....but they barely ever followup on it.

[Papenbrook]

Do you know how many episodes Mikey has to screw up/be ignored and then prove himself? That's like pretty much all his episodes except like a few. (then again I haven't watched the later part of season 3 and nothing of 4 so...if someone wants to prove me wrong...). It's like having Raph have a temper tantrum episode every single time.....

You'd think the writers would get tired of repeating themselves.


the problem with Nick is that it's trying to be grand without all the effort needed to actually obtain that.....:ohwell: ......all they do is try and shock you....but they barely ever followup on it.

Agreed. The show is losing my interest.

[ssjup81]

So...is the demographic the show is actually aimed at (not us) still watching?

[Ninturtle]

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show? (Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.
I don't see how Raph is always hit with slapstick, and the Turkey thing wasn't too far. He was aggressive towards Sir Malichi and Sir Malichi got insulted and turned Raphs head into a turtkey to mess with him. I agree that he didn't get enough focus in season 3 but recenlky he's been getting more episodes.

[Aaronardo]

So...is the demographic the show is actually aimed at (not us) still watching?

Ratings have gone down, but honestly, half, if not, most, of this show's audience are people like us. And even if not that, kids aren't stupid. I'm sure they'd figure out something's up at some point with the same episodes being repeated over and over.

[ssjup81]

Ratings have gone down, but honestly, half, if not, most, of this show's audience are people like us. And even if not that, kids aren't stupid. I'm sure they'd figure out something's up at some point with the same episodes being repeated over and over.But I thought that online viewership wasn't counted and that the show was badly promoted? That aside, I still like the show and as a kid, I loved the OT and watched it a lot, despite my getting older and that show was a bit repetitive with their episodes with self-contained plots. Maybe that's why I haven't any real qualms with this show.

[The Happy One]

"Explore" is a subjective word in this context. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, the only turtle who's getting the proper treatment is Leonardo, even if some of what happens is flawed for his character. Donnie gets potential that's never realized, whereas Michelangelo is reduced to the cliche comic relief; missing the savage suit and that LH friendship. Tell me, where is Raphael getting proper development? From what I saw ever since midseason 2 with notable exceptions the character is not getting proper treatment.

Put aside your contentedness for a second, why is it people are criticizing the show? (Because Teen Titans Go! is a terrible comparison, even by standards of other television programming)The simplest response is the uneven tone and mostly the off putting characterization as major weaknesses. Yes, we get the one dimensional traits of brains, goofiness, angst, and bravery respectively among the group in every incarnation. The major problem with the traits is in addition to these characters having potential, it's far from fully realized; notable examples being the love triangle having no conclusion or Raph always getting the short end of the stick in the show.

Raph's most crippling weakness in this show is always being the person hit with slapstick in the same way Donatello is close to death or even Michelangelo being a fool. The turkey head even as a joke is going way too far and even him being the turtle often a victim of villains for the plot's sake. The plant idea in WtW went nowhere, the "Dark Raphael" mind control went nowhere, the Slash feud went nowhere, and so on and so forth. The repetitious pattern of Raph having this potential with what he suffers is never fully realized, making him the turtle who suffers the most character wise in comparison to his brothers.

People can believe what they want to think, but the analysis is subjective per person. The fact that the constant screw overs occur and the character's motives or beliefs are never identified make this Raphael among the weaker versions of the characters. I can fawn over Sean Astin's delivery and the design, but the treatment is there clear as crystal.


Erm...okay...

I'm going to be polite as possible with this, Gold...I promise.

But you want to see me drop the contentedness so I will.

What I'm NOT content with is your opinion.

Explore is the right word. It's what they're doing. Period. The creators of this show are looking for other angles to show Raphael in. It's that simple.

Now as for Leo getting the only 'good treatment' I can see what you mean. But I believe the correct word is his 'good treatment' is displayed more often- as in, Leo gets a lot of focus.

But don't go saying the others have no development, now. If you're gonna sit here and tell me that you have seen no development in Don, in Mikey, or in Raph either then, I'm sorry, you're lying to yourself.

Besides just physical maturity, each and every Turtle has grown and developed into more mature young adults. And must I go into details? I think it's been adressed on numerous occasions just how developed these guys are.

So your point is fallin' a tad flat for me on that account. :ohwell:

Now as to why people are criticizing the show? Well why are people enjoying it?

Because everybody's got a preference, my friend. You said it yourself. :D

I do believe that I've said this before, Gold, but whatever direction they go in with Raph there's always going to be those that aren't going to be 100% satisfied.


So that answers your question. Peopel criticize this show because you haave millions of people- all different ages, all different opinions- watching. Every show will have criticism, my friend.

And the Turkey Head? Now I think that's just groping for something to complain about, don't ya think? ;)

So, with all due respect, I understand where you and a ton of others are coming from. But I think some of you dudes have to start picking up a little contentedness now and then and maybe you'll enjoy the show a bit more. Yeah, there are a caboodle of things that I could complain about- trust me. But I usually stop and think 'is it really that bad?' And if it is I also try to see why Ciro or Brandon or anybody on the creative team did things in certain ways. It really does help, so I suggest you try it. :)

And there's nothing wrong with complaining, Gold. I know you think I hate complaints. But, it's not that. It's just some of you guys really, really, really like to focus on negetives of the show and I don't mean just adress them. Some people exaggerate them and embolden them so that a minor problem becomes an HUGE problem and all this stuff happens.

So...um...yeah. That's all for me. I really hope I didn't offend you or undermine your opinion because, as always, it's not my motive. Just replying to what you said as all:D

You take care.

[Groverman62]

Wait which recent episodes have had Raph throwing temper tantrums?

[GoldMutant]

(Unsure if quote will let me say what I need) I'll say it one last time to reiterate:

By "development", Leo is the only one growing as a character easily seen throughout season 3 psychologically. He's the only Turtle I can see actual growth in; though rushing the healing hands seems jarring to be a last minute resolve to the Karai plot in The Deadly Venom. Now, as for the other Turtles I"m going to point this out:

Donatello- I don't see a single development other than the love triangle fading into nonexistent. Aaron did point this out in season 2, but the last time I felt Donnie was an actual character was the rampaging Timothy in Mutagen Man Unleashed due to him in a harsh conflict of freezing the poor sap. The majority of season 2 did give him plot, but that's my main issue here. Donnie gets a large amount of plot which I respect, but most of them go absolutely nowhere or are rushed. A big one was the retromutagen which while hinted at up to Slash and Destroy went on the backburner, even then the passing mentions are not there. It's a prominent issue outside why Donatello is being close to a death;y brink; it's a 180 of his development. Unless they hint at more of his smarts or utilizing his character properly, I don't see growth.

Michelangelo- Oh boy here we go, the big one to me. :ohwell: Mikey possesses no growth at all; while I know this version can be handled for episodic focus, I don't see growth. Mikey might not be in the same boat with horrible treatment as Raphael, but of the four brothers I honestly think he's the second worst; if not then Mikey is possibly the worst written turtle in the series. The Croaking is all I have to say because after his growth in season 2's conclusion with Wrath of Tiger Claw, Kuro Kabuto, Dimension X, and Invasion all of it goes missing by this episode in season 3. He screws up for.... no reason whatsoever and rewarded when he caused the Punk Frogs to enter the farmhouse. I know for a fact Mikey wouldn't be this stupid, but why is it he's trusting of Napoleon whereas the previous episode he doesn't trust "Mrs. O'Neil?"

I can mention many things of each time Cipes' Mikey does an awesome moment, he takes two steps back in development. No more apparent is he bad then from the crush on Renet all the way to Dumb Don. That crush was beyond atrocious, completely out of the blue and makes Mikey a love sick puppy; I couldn't stand this behavior at all in the episode because of it being sudden. When compared to Leo, Don, or even Raph's relationships, Mikey's enters left field so suddenly even as a crush. Granted, Mega Shredder and Yokai made him how I want a Michelangelo; then Creeping Doom comes and the character falls flat again to be an idiot. When a character as comic relief does this often, I don't laugh, I facepalm at the insulting nature. So, Michelangelo might have grown in the past but each time his idiocy in the show destroys that development.

Raphael- I would have no problem with exploration if what happens are explained in context. Personally, it's a major annoyance to use one character as a scapegoat often; no more apparent is the show doing it with Raphael. Like I said, I can tolerate issues to an extent, but the exploration isn't well executed. I'm going to use comparison to both softie Raph and badass Raph in this show on the difference. Let's start with emotional Raphael:

Arguably the common example of this series is to use Spike/Slash and for good reason. Raph often interacted with the turtle to convey why Raphael has issues in the show, especially with his family. Eventually, it blossomed into Raph having to fight the monster he created who became like an attack dog; even then Raphael did show compassion when he's under guilt for what he did. Similarly it also happened with Karai's debut in New Girl in Town during the leadership; after Michelangelo was knocked out by Snakeweed, Raph didn't keep fighting. Instead he held back with him and Donnie taking Mike back to the lair before Raph went to Leo and Karai. These examples came from the very beginning, where Raph was caring to his family even if he's driven crazy by the household.

In comparison, take a look at other relationships in the show for this character. Given we go by recent memory, take Mona Lisa as a prime example. Besides the given motivation of her similarities to Raph, why do these two have an attraction? Not only is out of character for Raph to suddenly like her even as a teen crush, Mona is similar for suddenly liking him even as a tough guy. The chemistry was rushed throughout to make Raph macho to impress a creature he just met.

As for tough guy Raph, it's downplayed often. Cockroach Terminator shows the tough guy persona obviously to face a fear, but others include Slash and Destroy to protect those you love, the recent Dinosaurs Seen in Sewers with fighting Zog and even the commencing of Casey and Raph's barely utilized friendship. Compare that to now, the only macho thing done was fighting the dragons on a planet with differing abilities abnormal from Earth, such as with the moon decreasing our weight. In addition, the only cool moment was the rematch against Rocksteady with the retromutagen in Pig and the Rhino. ("But I didn't!") I'm not asking for Raph to be a tough guy each time, but the little moments sprinkled in assist the matters on a character who never develops without limelight.

To me, Raphael should be a mixture of emotions while still facing a demon within himself should his anger get the best. (A Shredder dream maybe?) While softness in a character should be done with Raph to make him three dimensional, other traits are severely downplayed. I know a character can be macho while also caring towards everyone; people might think it's wrong but Vegeta from DBZ is kind of an example, even if vague. Declining these traits doesn't help matters, it further weakens the character and doesn't show development, especially when a particular trait takes over from episode to episode. (Must I mention Clash in comparison to Mega Shredder, Turtle Temper, anything with Spike, etc.?)

People enjoy what they want, a personal taste of it being apples to oranges or DC to Marvel. I'll need examples from you as to how and why these four grow, specifically from episode to episode. I can agree on Leo, but the others I can't defend. I haven't seen an ounce of development for good reason because I don't encounter a passing mention or the development goes two steps backwards. Maybe I'll be wrong in season 4, but until then Don loosely and especially both Raph and Mikey aren't getting their proper treatment developmental wise.

[kelligrafie]

Just because something has the TMNT name slapped on it doesn't mean it's a totally flawless product. As a consumer and supporter of the show, it's our responsibility to voice our concerns so that improvements can be made.

Nobody here has ever said the show is flawless. Nobody.

Even the people who constantly praise the show are more than willing to admit there are things they would like to be done differently.

Has it ever occurred to you and GoldMutant that perhaps Ciro et all agree with you and your vision of Raphael, but that they're simply too bound by censorship for it to go down that path?

Can you imagine how the horror episodes in season 3 would've gone if Ciro and Brandon were allowed to do whatever they wanted without any form of restraint?

If someone else is funding your vision, especially when it's a big company like Viacom, you have to make allowances for them to have some degree of control over said vision.

Maybe you're aiming your ire at the wrong people?

At the end of the day, we can complain about Viacom/Nickelodeon's censorship but ultimately they brought back the TMNT, they funded it. Maybe somebody else might've tried to do it, if they hadn't, but you can never guarantee a comebacks success.

[GoldMutant]

Nobody here has ever said the show is flawless. Nobody.

Even the people who constantly praise the show are more than willing to admit there are things they would like to be done differently.

Has it ever occurred to you and GoldMutant that perhaps Ciro et all agree with you and your vision of Raphael, but that they're simply too bound by censorship for it to go down that path?

Can you imagine how the horror episodes in season 3 would've gone if Ciro and Brandon were allowed to do whatever they wanted without any form of restraint?

If someone else is funding your vision, especially when it's a big company like Viacom, you have to make allowances for them to have some degree of control over said vision.

Maybe you're aiming your ire at the wrong people?

(Dares to imagine further horror beyond the restraints) ;)

Sabacooza can believe what he wants, it's his right as a person as is everyone. All I'm saying with Raphael is his balance is off heavily. Considering they include a drug reference, nearly got away with swearing twice, showed the whole world blown up with an onscreen death, so on and so forth, the restraints are there but are possible. All I want for Raph is to be properly balanced from tough guy to softie, the former can be done in a toned method. It's my issue with this character especially when the majority of the wit I like is kinda non existent.

Just once is all I ask, the writers have proven they can get away with difficult matters considered "dark" by Nick standards. (Spongebob did accomplish harsher themes, remember that. :lol:) It's clear though that restraints on Nick are at times missing, though largely an entirely new debate altogether. I'm not insulting what these guys do, but the constant pattern is kinda irritating. :ohwell:

[Papenbrook]

Nobody here has ever said the show is flawless. Nobody.

Even the people who constantly praise the show are more than willing to admit there are things they would like to be done differently.

Has it ever occurred to you and GoldMutant that perhaps Ciro et all agree with you and your vision of Raphael, but that they're simply too bound by censorship for it to go down that path?

Can you imagine how the horror episodes in season 3 would've gone if Ciro and Brandon were allowed to do whatever they wanted without any form of restraint?

If someone else is funding your vision, especially when it's a big company like Viacom, you have to make allowances for them to have some degree of control over said vision.

Maybe you're aiming your ire at the wrong people?

At the end of the day, we can complain about Viacom/Nickelodeon's censorship but ultimately they brought back the TMNT, they funded it. Maybe somebody else might've tried to do it, if they hadn't, but you can never guarantee a comebacks success.

It has nothing to do with censorship. We just want the show to get/be better. It has/had so much potential, with having many talented developers, writers, and others. However, it doesn't have enough effort put into it. That is sad, honestly.

You can put all the blame on Nickelodeon or Viacom. However, I think it is the writers, developers, and everyone else behind the show should be held responsible as well.

[The Happy One]

Wait which recent episodes have had Raph throwing temper tantrums?

Exactly! When?:lol:

I think they're pulling issues out of season 1. Saying there is little to no development is just flat out incorrect. Say what you will about Raph being a sissy or Mikey being dumb but no one who is being honest can say there isno development. And therefore I can't argue this if they refuse to admit that there's a ton of development despite Raph being characterized in a way they don't like.

And that's the truth. I hate to put it bluntly but that's all this is about. They think Raph is too soft and instead of leaving it at that, suddenly there is no development either.
What's next? Now the animation is poor?:lol:

Sorry dudes. I can respect how you feel about Raph. But don't drag everything else down too, just to make a point.

[Papenbrook]

Exactly! When?:lol:

I think they're pulling issues out of season 1. Saying there is little to no development is just flat out incorrect. Say what you will about Raph being a sissy or Mikey being dumb but no one who is being honest can say there isno development. And therefore I can't argue this if they refuse to admit that there's a ton of development despite Raph being characterized in a way they don't like.

And that's the truth. I hate to put it bluntly but that's all this is about. They think Raph is too soft and instead of leaving it at that, suddenly there is no development either.
What's next? Now the animation is poor?:lol:

Sorry dudes. I can respect how you feel about Raph. But don't drag everything else down too, just to make a point.

People are allowed to constructively criticize the show,animation included. You need to learn that although the criticism is harsh, it might actually be true. Don't be rude to dissenters. It helps no one.

[The Happy One]

People are allowed to constructively criticize the show,animation included. You need to learn that although the criticism is harsh, it might actually be true. Don't be rude to dissenters. It helps no one.

I'm not trying to be PK. Please enlighten me with examples of underdevelopment? Because every example I've seen is season 1 or 2. As I've always said, PK, I can respect complaints. But tell me, how you go from 'oh Raph needs more tgis, Raph needs to be that' to 'NO ONE BESIDES LEO developed'.

Sorry, but that is nowhere near the truth and I just expressed that, PK, as respectfully as I can. If my memory is correct you have done this just as much, if not more.
But let's not argue, ok. I get it. You got your opinion and I've got mine:D

[Aaronardo]

I'm not trying to be PK. Please enlighten me with examples of underdevelopment? Because every example I've seen is season 1 or 2. As I've always said, PK, I can respect complaints. But tell me, how you go from 'oh Raph needs more tgis, Raph needs to be that' to 'NO ONE BESIDES LEO developed'.

You have clearly not been reading the thread.

(Unsure if quote will let me say what I need) I'll say it one last time to reiterate:

By "development", Leo is the only one growing as a character easily seen throughout season 3 psychologically. He's the only Turtle I can see actual growth in; though rushing the healing hands seems jarring to be a last minute resolve to the Karai plot in The Deadly Venom. Now, as for the other Turtles I"m going to point this out:

Donatello- I don't see a single development other than the love triangle fading into nonexistent. Aaron did point this out in season 2, but the last time I felt Donnie was an actual character was the rampaging Timothy in Mutagen Man Unleashed due to him in a harsh conflict of freezing the poor sap. The majority of season 2 did give him plot, but that's my main issue here. Donnie gets a large amount of plot which I respect, but most of them go absolutely nowhere or are rushed. A big one was the retromutagen which while hinted at up to Slash and Destroy went on the backburner, even then the passing mentions are not there. It's a prominent issue outside why Donatello is being close to a death;y brink; it's a 180 of his development. Unless they hint at more of his smarts or utilizing his character properly, I don't see growth.

Michelangelo- Oh boy here we go, the big one to me. :ohwell: Mikey possesses no growth at all; while I know this version can be handled for episodic focus, I don't see growth. Mikey might not be in the same boat with horrible treatment as Raphael, but of the four brothers I honestly think he's the second worst; if not then Mikey is possibly the worst written turtle in the series. The Croaking is all I have to say because after his growth in season 2's conclusion with Wrath of Tiger Claw, Kuro Kabuto, Dimension X, and Invasion all of it goes missing by this episode in season 3. He screws up for.... no reason whatsoever and rewarded when he caused the Punk Frogs to enter the farmhouse. I know for a fact Mikey wouldn't be this stupid, but why is it he's trusting of Napoleon whereas the previous episode he doesn't trust "Mrs. O'Neil?"

I can mention many things of each time Cipes' Mikey does an awesome moment, he takes two steps back in development. No more apparent is he bad then from the crush on Renet all the way to Dumb Don. That crush was beyond atrocious, completely out of the blue and makes Mikey a love sick puppy; I couldn't stand this behavior at all in the episode because of it being sudden. When compared to Leo, Don, or even Raph's relationships, Mikey's enters left field so suddenly even as a crush. Granted, Mega Shredder and Yokai made him how I want a Michelangelo; then Creeping Doom comes and the character falls flat again to be an idiot. When a character as comic relief does this often, I don't laugh, I facepalm at the insulting nature. So, Michelangelo might have grown in the past but each time his idiocy in the show destroys that development.

Raphael- I would have no problem with exploration if what happens are explained in context. Personally, it's a major annoyance to use one character as a scapegoat often; no more apparent is the show doing it with Raphael. Like I said, I can tolerate issues to an extent, but the exploration isn't well executed. I'm going to use comparison to both softie Raph and badass Raph in this show on the difference. Let's start with emotional Raphael:

Arguably the common example of this series is to use Spike/Slash and for good reason. Raph often interacted with the turtle to convey why Raphael has issues in the show, especially with his family. Eventually, it blossomed into Raph having to fight the monster he created who became like an attack dog; even then Raphael did show compassion when he's under guilt for what he did. Similarly it also happened with Karai's debut in New Girl in Town during the leadership; after Michelangelo was knocked out by Snakeweed, Raph didn't keep fighting. Instead he held back with him and Donnie taking Mike back to the lair before Raph went to Leo and Karai. These examples came from the very beginning, where Raph was caring to his family even if he's driven crazy by the household.

In comparison, take a look at other relationships in the show for this character. Given we go by recent memory, take Mona Lisa as a prime example. Besides the given motivation of her similarities to Raph, why do these two have an attraction? Not only is out of character for Raph to suddenly like her even as a teen crush, Mona is similar for suddenly liking him even as a tough guy. The chemistry was rushed throughout to make Raph macho to impress a creature he just met.

As for tough guy Raph, it's downplayed often. Cockroach Terminator shows the tough guy persona obviously to face a fear, but others include Slash and Destroy to protect those you love, the recent Dinosaurs Seen in Sewers with fighting Zog and even the commencing of Casey and Raph's barely utilized friendship. Compare that to now, the only macho thing done was fighting the dragons on a planet with differing abilities abnormal from Earth, such as with the moon decreasing our weight. In addition, the only cool moment was the rematch against Rocksteady with the retromutagen in Pig and the Rhino. ("But I didn't!") I'm not asking for Raph to be a tough guy each time, but the little moments sprinkled in assist the matters on a character who never develops without limelight.

Oh, and on the subject of Raph. He's not portrayed horribly in this show, but he's definitely got the worst of it out of the four in this show. When was the last time you ever saw Raph be a badass? Seriously. When? The last time I can remember, personally, is in Cockroach Terminator, an episode that premiered over two years ago. I mean, if they want to make fun of Raph by making him the butt of jokes the way they do, it'd probably be funny if we actually saw him be more like the actual characterization of Raphael. And, hell, if you want a big softie Raph, guess what? The last time we saw him as a big softie at all was in "Within The Woods", the Season 3 premiere. Hasn't been like that since then. At all. In fact, not being able to stay consistent with his characterization is exactly why this incarnation of Raph is a bad character.

And there are more examples that I won't list due to length. Seriously, man, at least try to make a counter-point. Don't deny what's been reiterated countless times in this thread.
But I will admit Raph got a lot better treatment in this morning's episode than recently.

[Papenbrook]

I'm not trying to be PK. Please enlighten me with examples of underdevelopment? Because every example I've seen is season 1 or 2. As I've always said, PK, I can respect complaints. But tell me, how you go from 'oh Raph needs more tgis, Raph needs to be that' to 'NO ONE BESIDES LEO developed'.

Sorry, but that is nowhere near the truth and I just expressed that, PK, as respectfully as I can. If my memory is correct you have done this just as much, if not more.
But let's not argue, ok. I get it. You got your opinion and I've got mine:D

I never said anything about Leo getting the most development. I said that Raph, and to an extent, the show as a whole, is lacking development. So please, stop confronting every dissent. It doesn't help any of us.

[GoldMutant]

I never said anything about Leo getting the most development. I said that Raph, and to an extent, the show as a whole, is lacking development. So please, stop confronting every dissent. It doesn't help any of us.

I think what Happy is referring to is people bouncing off from being why Raph has no attention and comparing it to Leo. He doesn't mean you in the slightest.

What I do know is this, we're at a point in animation where we've grown accustomed to everything. We appreciate the art and the greater the writing or characters, the further we get immersed. This show clearly can pass certain boundaries since Shredder almost impaled Leo in season 1, we saw painful mutations throughout season 1 to 3, Leo nearly killed in 2, onscreen deaths in season 3, etc. Plus, this is the same network where Spongebob aired two suicide episodes, an episode on murder, and so on and so forth; it's also the same network that gave us Korra and Avatar.

Anyone who wants to defend the boundaries taken can attempt, but when this show has done it before it can be done. And Happy, the fact you danced around every point I've made or anyone else shows you can't handle this criticism. :ohwell: You haven't refuted anything and everyone who argues with you has provided points throughout the show; I've done that especially with the treatment. Seriously, this argument is getting ridiculous, but if it needs to proceed oh well. :roll:

[Papenbrook]

I think what Happy is referring to is people bouncing off from being why Raph has no attention and comparing it to Leo. He doesn't mean you in the slightest.

What I do know is this, we're at a point in animation where we've grown accustomed to everything. We appreciate the art and the greater the writing or characters, the further we get immersed. This show clearly can pass certain boundaries since Shredder almost impaled Leo in season 1, we saw painful mutations throughout season 1 to 3, Leo nearly killed in 2, onscreen deaths in season 3, etc. Plus, this is the same network where Spongebob aired two suicide episodes, an episode on murder, and so on and so forth; it's also the same network that gave us Korra and Avatar.

Anyone who wants to defend the boundaries taken can attempt, but when this show has done it before it can be done. And Happy, the fact you danced around every point I've made or anyone else shows you can't handle this criticism. :ohwell: You haven't refuted anything and everyone who argues with you has provided points throughout the show; I've done that especially with the treatment. Seriously, this argument is getting ridiculous, but if it needs to proceed oh well. :roll:

Oh. I thought he was.

Happy, if you are reading this, I am not trying to attack anyone who works on the show. I am just typing my grievances. Please, don't take it the wrong way.

[victory_angel]

(Unsure if quote will let me say what I need) I'll say it one last time to reiterate:

By "development", Leo is the only one growing as a character easily seen throughout season 3 psychologically. He's the only Turtle I can see actual growth in; though rushing the healing hands seems jarring to be a last minute resolve to the Karai plot in The Deadly Venom. Now, as for the other Turtles I"m going to point this out:

Donatello- I don't see a single development other than the love triangle fading into nonexistent. Aaron did point this out in season 2, but the last time I felt Donnie was an actual character was the rampaging Timothy in Mutagen Man Unleashed due to him in a harsh conflict of freezing the poor sap. The majority of season 2 did give him plot, but that's my main issue here. Donnie gets a large amount of plot which I respect, but most of them go absolutely nowhere or are rushed. A big one was the retromutagen which while hinted at up to Slash and Destroy went on the backburner, even then the passing mentions are not there. It's a prominent issue outside why Donatello is being close to a death;y brink; it's a 180 of his development. Unless they hint at more of his smarts or utilizing his character properly, I don't see growth.

Michelangelo- Oh boy here we go, the big one to me. :ohwell: Mikey possesses no growth at all; while I know this version can be handled for episodic focus, I don't see growth. Mikey might not be in the same boat with horrible treatment as Raphael, but of the four brothers I honestly think he's the second worst; if not then Mikey is possibly the worst written turtle in the series. The Croaking is all I have to say because after his growth in season 2's conclusion with Wrath of Tiger Claw, Kuro Kabuto, Dimension X, and Invasion all of it goes missing by this episode in season 3. He screws up for.... no reason whatsoever and rewarded when he caused the Punk Frogs to enter the farmhouse. I know for a fact Mikey wouldn't be this stupid, but why is it he's trusting of Napoleon whereas the previous episode he doesn't trust "Mrs. O'Neil?"

I can mention many things of each time Cipes' Mikey does an awesome moment, he takes two steps back in development. No more apparent is he bad then from the crush on Renet all the way to Dumb Don. That crush was beyond atrocious, completely out of the blue and makes Mikey a love sick puppy; I couldn't stand this behavior at all in the episode because of it being sudden. When compared to Leo, Don, or even Raph's relationships, Mikey's enters left field so suddenly even as a crush. Granted, Mega Shredder and Yokai made him how I want a Michelangelo; then Creeping Doom comes and the character falls flat again to be an idiot. When a character as comic relief does this often, I don't laugh, I facepalm at the insulting nature. So, Michelangelo might have grown in the past but each time his idiocy in the show destroys that development.

Raphael- I would have no problem with exploration if what happens are explained in context. Personally, it's a major annoyance to use one character as a scapegoat often; no more apparent is the show doing it with Raphael. Like I said, I can tolerate issues to an extent, but the exploration isn't well executed. I'm going to use comparison to both softie Raph and badass Raph in this show on the difference. Let's start with emotional Raphael:

Arguably the common example of this series is to use Spike/Slash and for good reason. Raph often interacted with the turtle to convey why Raphael has issues in the show, especially with his family. Eventually, it blossomed into Raph having to fight the monster he created who became like an attack dog; even then Raphael did show compassion when he's under guilt for what he did. Similarly it also happened with Karai's debut in New Girl in Town during the leadership; after Michelangelo was knocked out by Snakeweed, Raph didn't keep fighting. Instead he held back with him and Donnie taking Mike back to the lair before Raph went to Leo and Karai. These examples came from the very beginning, where Raph was caring to his family even if he's driven crazy by the household.

In comparison, take a look at other relationships in the show for this character. Given we go by recent memory, take Mona Lisa as a prime example. Besides the given motivation of her similarities to Raph, why do these two have an attraction? Not only is out of character for Raph to suddenly like her even as a teen crush, Mona is similar for suddenly liking him even as a tough guy. The chemistry was rushed throughout to make Raph macho to impress a creature he just met.

As for tough guy Raph, it's downplayed often. Cockroach Terminator shows the tough guy persona obviously to face a fear, but others include Slash and Destroy to protect those you love, the recent Dinosaurs Seen in Sewers with fighting Zog and even the commencing of Casey and Raph's barely utilized friendship. Compare that to now, the only macho thing done was fighting the dragons on a planet with differing abilities abnormal from Earth, such as with the moon decreasing our weight. In addition, the only cool moment was the rematch against Rocksteady with the retromutagen in Pig and the Rhino. ("But I didn't!") I'm not asking for Raph to be a tough guy each time, but the little moments sprinkled in assist the matters on a character who never develops without limelight.

To me, Raphael should be a mixture of emotions while still facing a demon within himself should his anger get the best. (A Shredder dream maybe?) While softness in a character should be done with Raph to make him three dimensional, other traits are severely downplayed. I know a character can be macho while also caring towards everyone; people might think it's wrong but Vegeta from DBZ is kind of an example, even if vague. Declining these traits doesn't help matters, it further weakens the character and doesn't show development, especially when a particular trait takes over from episode to episode. (Must I mention Clash in comparison to Mega Shredder, Turtle Temper, anything with Spike, etc.?)

People enjoy what they want, a personal taste of it being apples to oranges or DC to Marvel. I'll need examples from you as to how and why these four grow, specifically from episode to episode. I can agree on Leo, but the others I can't defend. I haven't seen an ounce of development for good reason because I don't encounter a passing mention or the development goes two steps backwards. Maybe I'll be wrong in season 4, but until then Don loosely and especially both Raph and Mikey aren't getting their proper treatment developmental wise.


Leo- Has grown as a leader. He is learning to trust and accept the opinions and suggestions of his brothers. However there is still much he need to learn about how to becoming a leader of a functioning team as there are times he still acts on his own because he feels it's for the better of the team.

Raph-Used to get angry at every turn and would find any reason to exert dominance over his brothers. But like they said they said in the Kicking Shell and Taking named video. Raph is angry all the time because he's the most sensitive. Raph's anger still is an issue, however he now accept that Leadership isn't getting your way all the time. He has been more tolerant of Donnie's explanations, and there have been numerous moments where he had jumped in to save one of his brothers from harm, particularly Mikey as he is the only one Raph calls "Little Brother" affectionately. And has proven himself as an alternate leader in Leo's absence.

Donnie-Used to have the meeker personality to everyone else. He wouldn't really have any opinions of his own, instead he would follow which ever brother had the stronger argument. And he would cave to Raph most of the times when Raph threatened him with bodily harm. He also was the weakest fighter on the team, partially due to the fact he would approach battle like a game of chess and would be too busy calculating his next move over what is happening in the moment. He now is boldly stating his opinion in regards to missions and what should be done. He also asserts some clout as a leader particularly with his off shoot group between April, Casey, and himself. And he also shows he does have a knack for diplomacy when the situation calls for it. Which will be only become stronger as he embraces parts of himself that he hasn't accepted yet.

[The Happy One]

You have clearly not been reading the thread.





And there are more examples that I won't list due to length. Seriously, man, at least try to make a counter-point. Don't deny what's been reiterated countless times in this thread.
But I will admit Raph got a lot better treatment in this morning's episode than recently.

Yikes, I can see how I wasn't making a point by stating the obvious:embarass:
So...here I go. I hope it makes sense:ohwell:

In Season 3 we saw Raph mellow out, take the responsibility of leading his remaining brothers. He took over training and made sure Leo was recovering. And while Raph may have appear to lose that toughness he transformed it into passion. Vision Quest showed that perfectly- for each one of the turtles, I think.

We saw Donnie let go of the past and focus himself on his family- on what's real and not a fantasy in his head. He respected Leonardo's leadership more and understood his place, and at the same time he respected himself more. We saw him over time become more skilkful, a more tactful fighter, calm and fluid in movement and still very powerful.

We've seen Mikey blossom too. He's focused and still doesn't lack that raw, unpredictable talent- in fact, just like all his bros, it's enhanced. He's experienced and often- like in Into Dimension X or Battle For New York- used his insightfulness and unorthadox skill and knowledge to get them out of tough spots. And, yeah, he's still a goof, but he's definitely got balance- more so than in season 1 or 2.

And those are just to name a few, really.

So, yes, they most certainly have developed. Maybe it's not in the way a couple of these guys want or expected- but they cannot say there is no development.

I hope that clears it up a bit on where I'm coming from:)

Am I way off with this, or.....???

And Pk, it all good. I wasn't specifically talking about you :)

And Gold, I can handle it, but when I see something I disagree on I tend to express my view point on it as well. I did agree with you on some points, though. It just seems like every chance some people get they jump down the creators' throats about Raph and I just hate that, sorry. Its not you, Gold, or anyone personally- I really think you're a cool dude. Just making a point (which I guess I wasn't very good at until a few minutes ago :lol:).

But I think we can drop it now. You're right in that it's nothing to fight over.

[Warhorse]

So, I know this is a very old thread, but I decided to watch the Nick show again, and those feelings I had then, came back. It starts great, and then by middle of season 3, I get so disappointed with what is happening to my favorite Turtle that I just gave up and stopped watching.

So, if anyone is still on here, how did everything pan out for Raph in the end of the series? Did it get better or worse? How about Mikey, because it seemed like he too wasn't getting much development.

[CyberCubed]

Raph is treated fine. He's my favorite Turtle and I loved this version of him.

[Warhorse]

Raph is treated fine. He's my favorite Turtle and I loved this version of him.

Then you must have very low standards. Seriously, name me at least 3 episodes since season 3 where he saved the day against a major villain.

[CyberCubed]

Then you must have very low standards. Seriously, name me at least 3 episodes since season 3 where he saved the day against a major villain.

Why does he have to save the day? Why are you acting like this is a competition between Raph or the other Turtles? I liked him because he had a great character, funny moments and good fight scenes. I’m not going to remember random eps off the top of my head, I’ve only seen each ep twice and that was a few years ago now.

[Dejablue]

Honestly at first I thought I'd hate Rise Raph but when I do watch the show I often think he's the most enjoyable turtle. Possibly because I find him much less annoying than the other 3. Also he reminds me of Boom Knuckles which is a huge plus.

EDIT: Wow Oh wait I'm an idiot. I thought this thread was in the Rise section. Whoops.

Okay so 2k12 Raphael? Well development wise he did pretty well imo. Because, just like in the 2k3 series, Leo is the only turtle who actually got developed in any significant permanent way. Raphael, Mikey, and Don have "moments" but nothing about who they were ever permanently changed after some significant moment. I think Raph taking charge of training in season 3 is the one real time he shined a an individual. Though I'll go out and say if anything was treated...well...rushed was his relationship with MonaLisa, which came out of nowhere and went nowhere. But at the end I ...think we're supposed to believe they are a couple? TMNT's track record with romance is pretty bad.

[Warhorse]

Why does he have to save the day? Why are you acting like this is a competition between Raph or the other Turtles? I liked him because he had a great character, funny moments and good fight scenes. I’m not going to remember random eps off the top of my head, I’ve only seen each ep twice and that was a few years ago now.

Because it's fun to see your favorite turtle save the day, and I also like it when the show is evenly balanced so it shows that each Turtle has his role to play in the team, and well, this show dropped the ball bad on both Raph and Mikey. Seriously, with April and Casey actually saving the day far more than Raph and Mikey, why even bother having them in the show?

And thanks for proving my point, that Raph fans were given the finger once season 3 came around since you can't remember anything memorable about him in the show afterwards.

Personally, I gave it till the Raph turns bad arc to see if things would turn around, but they didn't, and I got board and disheartened with seeing my favorite character treated like crap, so I checked out. By the looks of the ratings going downhill about the same time, I wasn't the only one. Raphael tends to be the majority favorite with the public. Don't give them what they want, they bail. And don't bother giving me this crap "oh, they only wanted 5 seasons" or Ciro wouldn't be whining now about wanting to do a movie.

[Warhorse]

Honestly at first I thought I'd hate Rise Raph but when I do watch the show I often think he's the most enjoyable turtle. Possibly because I find him much less annoying than the other 3. Also he reminds me of Boom Knuckles which is a huge plus.

EDIT: Wow Oh wait I'm an idiot. I thought this thread was in the Rise section. Whoops.

Okay so 2k12 Raphael? Well development wise he did pretty well imo. Because, just like in the 2k3 series, Leo is the only turtle who actually got developed in any significant permanent way. Raphael, Mikey, and Don have "moments" but nothing about who they were ever permanently changed after some significant moment. I think Raph taking charge of training in season 3 is the one real time he shined a an individual. Though I'll go out and say if anything was treated...well...rushed was his relationship with MonaLisa, which came out of nowhere and went nowhere. But at the end I ...think we're supposed to believe they are a couple? TMNT's track record with romance is pretty bad.

Don't worry about getting the threads mixed up. But thanks for the chuckle.

I agree with season 3 being promising, but for some reason the showrunners were adamant on so much of the story revolving around April. She's supposed to be the supporting character, not the character that the majority of the story revolves around. I would start to notice more and more, the interactions, adventures and team ups of the brothers themselves were taking a back seat to one of the Turtles being teamed up with one of the humans. That too could have hurt the ratings. Sorry, but April was boring and Casey pining for her was boring as well. Leo and Karai's stories were exciting, because at least Karai was interesting as a character. Shame, too bad the show didn't have the balls to write off April in season 2 and have Karai be the one tagging along with them.

[CyberCubed]

Personally, I gave it till the Raph turns bad arc to see if things would turn around, but they didn't, and I got board and disheartened with seeing my favorite character treated like crap, so I checked out. By the looks of the ratings going downhill about the same time, I wasn't the only one. Raphael tends to be the majority favorite with the public. Don't give them what they want, they bail. And don't bother giving me this crap "oh, they only wanted 5 seasons" or Ciro wouldn't be whining now about wanting to do a movie.

Raphael was handled fine all series, and has a lot of focus in Season 4 with Mona Lisa, and great fight scenes and arcs in every series. He does the most fighting of all the Turtles.

Also ratings have nothing to do with the show or how characters are handled, ratings for everything on TV declined in the 2010's decade as it went on due to online streaming becoming mainstream and TV becoming less important. Little kids don't have to watch on TV when it was streamed online and put on itunes or Nick's site.

[Dejablue]

Honestly I feel like Casey and Raph's friendship was one of the best things in the show.

One of the worst things was the love triangle. Because it was never resolved. I remember the great NaruSaku vs NaruHina wars of old so I can say with confidence that the writers of this show dragged out the triangle on purpose, knowing it would generate conversation and views within its young audience. Very cute at first in my opinion but I was sick of it by season 3.

One of the most perplexing things was April and her powers. Mostly because it was never concluded and in the end it added nothing to the narrative other than giving April a reason to still exist because she could fight. I wonder if they ran out of time and had to cut the subplot all together.

They could have done something interesting and made April the queen of the utroms or something, or some kind of middle man between the good utrom and Earth (And you could easily make that some kind of background situation that would steadily ease April into more of a background character role) Or at least used her mysterious origins as a spring board into how the turtles first discover dimension X. But she wasn't necessary for that. We never even learn the fate of her mother, thus her subplot fizzles out into nothing.