Does the Fred Wolf show get unfairly blamed?

[Groverman62]

I should say this first, I never watched the 80s show, it was before my time so I cant agree or disagree with anyone on how good or bad it is. But I have noticed a lot of resentment towards it.

People dislike the impact its had and think it has too much hold over the franchise today. And to me thats not really something for it to be held responsible for. Thats the fault of the people that the franchise is currently in the hands of.

What does everyone else think?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

The blame is not at all unfair.

It both created the franchise's lasting staying power and perpetual public perception, while at the same time forever hobbling it by handcuffing it to the cowabunga-calling pizza-munching groovy goofy cartoon concepts.

[mikey22]

if they kept it like season 1 and season 2 it would have been fine.


if it wasnt for the success of the 80s toon there would have been no 90 movie though so you kind of needed it.

but the lack of weapon usage and just throwing people around in every episode was poor.

[Groverman62]

What I mean say is, the Fred Wolf isnt making people follow its example. The people that are working on the franchise now can always decide to not go in that direction and do something different

[Wesley]

No, I think the criticism is fair. Season one was great even though it had its own problems. The cartoon got dumbed down in the later seasons, especially in the mid seasons like four and five when it became a parody of itself. Also, I didn't like that the violence was toned down due to censorship.

The show isn't as good as I remembered it. There are annoying catchphrases and too many pizza jokes. It was good for its time, as I didn't know about the comics and there was no other tmnt cartoon to compare it to back then, but parts of the show haven't aged well. I prefer the 2003 cartoon, as it had better characterisation and story arcs and was based on the original Mirage Comics.

I still like the OT, though, as it contains my favourite version of characters such as Rat King, Learherhead, Raphael and Shredder. The banter between Shredder and Krang was entertaining to watch and the pop culture references were good. There were some good story arcs as well in seasons like eight and ten.

[pferreira]

Fans of the Mirage comic get annoyed that what the general public know the Turtles for is the Fred Wolf cartoon, not the original comics which were much more complex and gritty in writing. There's a tendency by some people to label the FW show inferior although I would argue against that being the case. The FW show was a lot more clever than people feel it is and it's obviously had more of an impact in that whenever people remember the Turtles they remember the 80s cartoon iteration. This is what makes fans of the later animated shows even more annoyed.

[TigerClaw]

Fans of the Mirage comic get annoyed that what the general public know the Turtles for is the Fred Wolf cartoon, not the original comics which were much more complex and gritty in writing. There's a tendency by some people to label the FW show inferior although I would argue against that being the case. The FW show was a lot more clever than people feel it is and it's obviously had more of an impact in that whenever people remember the Turtles they remember the 80s cartoon iteration. This is what makes fans of the later animated shows even more annoyed.
To be honest, When the 80s cartoon came out, and then discovering it was based on the mirage comics, I tried to get into the Mirage comics, but I wasn't feeling them, The original comics were too dark and weren't like the show, then I found the archie series comics, which were more to my liking, it took the 80s cartoon and went on a different direction.

The Fred Wolf will always hold a special place in my heart, any incarnation of TMNT borrows some elements from it, be in the Nick TV series, IDW comics, or new movie.

[neatoman]

It is a bit annoying that a cartoon that ended twenty years ago still overshadows the more interesting and/or more recent material, especially when said cartoon is in terrible quality. The absurd lack of similarity to the comic it's based on is just icing on the cake.

[Prowler]

Like people have said numerous times before, the show is pretty old, so people should just let it go already or at least watch some episodes without the nostalgia goggles on. Doesn't help the fact that it's pretty different from the source material and a fairly dumbed down and kiddified version of it, which makes your average joe view the franchise as something for pathetic manchildren while liking Batman or Spider-Man is "cool".

[Candy Kappa]

It was a "necessary evil", it made the franchise big in the 90's. Without the FW show we'd probably just have the Mirage comics series, the Pen & paper tabletop game and a movie.


if it wasnt for the success of the 80s toon there would have been no 90 movie though so you kind of needed it.

iirc the movie was already in production before the show got overly popular, as the FW elements that are in the movie was added later to the script.

[IndigoErth]

It is what it is and did it's own important job of taking the Turtles mainstream, even if it wasn't via the most favorable route to some. But so many older fans would never even have discovered or gotten into TMNT if it were not for that show. I was too young for the comics, seeing as I had only just turned five when the first was published, but the cartoon targeted to my age group, well that did the job. But it comes full circle, I'd later know about everything else. And a lot that came after does kind of owe it to that first series for making the TMNT popular enough in the first place for people to be interested in continuing to sell them to the public in other ways.

The hold the original has over it... well, you've got an adult generation now who's behind some (a lot) who's main experience with TMNT was through that show. AND when it comes to random merchandise, particularly clothing, there is also the "vintage" factor that most other stuff isn't old enough to tap into yet. It would be nice if Mirage could get in on that more too though. But... marketing. The average, casual nostalgic of course is less aware of it, if at all.

[plastroncafe]

It does not get unfairly blamed.
It does not get unfairly lauded, either.

The original Mirage book started as a joke.
The original Cartoon started as a toy commercial.
Thems just the brass tacks of the matter.

[Shred87]

I would say the blame is a little much.... Without the cartoon we may not even have a franchise to bicker about... We're just waiting for someone to give a grittier movie franchise and it isn't happening anytime soon. Batman was Adam West for a generation and you can see where that is now. Michael Bay was the wrong guy for the job for those who favor the mirage story. The cartoon put the franchise on the map.

[CyberCubed]

This thread should be locked. The IDW comic is heavily based on the original cartoon and people love it, so it goes to show you in the hands of good writers and OT elements are done well.

[Tora]

Say what you want about the 87 show but without it the comic series likely would have died out by the late 80's early 90's and the creators would have moved on to other things. The best case scenario is that the OG Comics would have survived as a Cult series and maybe picked up by DC or Marvel at some point in the early to mid 90's.

So Yeah no 87 Toon/Toyline no Mega Franchise.

[plastroncafe]

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

[CyberCubed]

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

Weren't sales of the Mirage comic already declining after the first 11 issues? I'm not sure if Mirage TMNT would have made it past Return to New York. That might have functioned as the finale for the whole series.

[Wesley]

It was a "necessary evil", it made the franchise big in the 90's. Without the FW show we'd probably just have the Mirage comics series, the Pen & paper tabletop game and a movie.

Yep, I would never have found out about tmnt or have an interest in watching the later shows if it wasn't for the 1987 cartoon. I was 3 or 4 when I first started watching the cartoon in the early 90s, so it was good for its time back then, as I was part of the target demographic. The OT was a good introduction for kids to tmnt similar to the way James Bond Jr was to James Bond.

[Candy Kappa]

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.

I thought Marvel wanted to buy the Turtles, but E&L turned them down by being Kirby fanboys and artistic integrity or something. With Marvel not having a creator-owned rules, they would have lost the entire property of sold to Marvel.

[plastroncafe]

I thought Marvel wanted to buy the Turtles, but E&L turned them down by being Kirby fanboys and artistic integrity or something. With Marvel not having a creator-owned rules, they would have lost the entire property of sold to Marvel.

That is entirely possible.
Memory, it seems....did not serve.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

These "what-ifs" are fascinating. Curious if you know of any statements or interviews from larger independent comic publishers (e.g. Image) that attribute any inspiration to Mirage?

It seems to me that more impact on comics simply came from those half dozen creators at Marvel who finally said "screw this" and left to form creator-owned companies?

[plastroncafe]

Not off the top of my head, but a quick google gives me this:

A History of Indy Comic Books - Steven Phillip Jones (http://stevenphilipjones.com/a-history-of-indy-comic-books/)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Not off the top of my head, but a quick google gives me this:

A History of Indy Comic Books - Steven Phillip Jones (http://stevenphilipjones.com/a-history-of-indy-comic-books/)

Very cool... thanks!

Wow... check out this excerpt!

Independent comics scored a stunning success in 1984 with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (#1, April), a black-and-white magazine-sized comic book published as a joke by amateur cartoonists Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. TMNT became, in Wright’s words, “a megamerchandising bonanza” that was soon spun off into a long-running animated TV series, three live-action films, over two million toys and action figures, and a plethora of ancillary licensed products.[54] The Turtles’ success, meanwhile, ignited a black-and-white Indy comic book boom, and, over the next two years, hundreds of new small independent publishers flooded the market with black-and-white comic books, inflating the number of titles published each month from two hundred to eight hundred.[55] Many of these comics starred some variation of the Turtles or featured a super-team like the X-Men, and, for several months, speculators snapped up every title they could afford to buy. One TMNT copycat, Boris the Bear, proved popular enough to help launch Dark Horse Comics, founded in 1986 by Portland, Oregon comic shop owner Mike Richardson. A year later Dark Horse scored a critical success with Concrete (#1, March) by former Marvel creator Paul Chadwick, then hit it big commercially in 1988 with Aliens (#1 July). This original comic book sequel to the films Alien (1979) and Aliens (1986) cemented a symbiotic relationship between Dark Horse and the films’ studio, 20th Century Fox, that has since spawned hundreds of licensed comic books and a couple of popular films, including The Mask (1994) and Time Cop (1994).

Dark Horse came out of a TMNT spoof!

[Zak The Neutrino]

The only thing FW cartoon should be blamed for is taking TMNT mainstream and making it an international phenomenon.

Like it or love it we have many of what you guys do like because of the FW cartoon. Hell we probably wouldn't even have this forum without it. ;)

[neatoman]

This thread should be locked. The IDW comic is heavily based on the original cartoon and people love it, so it goes to show you in the hands of good writers and OT elements are done well.

And once again I feel the need to remind you, just because it lifted ideas from the cartoon doesn't mean it's anything like the cartoon, not when they have been altered to such an extreme extent. Of course IDW took things from the Fred Wolf cartoon but they treated them like blank slates, gutted the old characterisation from the cartoon to make these characters and concepts appeal to a more mature audience.

Cartoon Krang was an incompetent weakling with an annoying voice, IDW Krang is a psychopath who wears the skin of his enemies.
Cartoon Bebop and Rocksteady behaved like children, IDW Bebop and Rocksteady are destructive monsters who makes light of extreme violence.
Cartoon Slash was a moron obsessed with palm trees, IDW Slash has extreme mood swings.
Cartoon Mutagen Man was worried he wouldn't be able to deliver a letter, IDW Mutagen Manis suicidal.

And it's probably worth mentioning that characters that did appear in the show but have been given plenty of appearences outside of it (such as Shredder) don't seem to borrow much from their Fred Wolf counterparts. I could go on but I think you get the point

[Powder]

I love the show but it f**ked up any chance of the public seeing the TMNT as anything more than goofy kids fodder. I mean, versions since have had their dark & serious moments, but are still handicapped by having to cater to casuals who won't accept anything that doesn't invoke nostalgic reminders of a thing they haven't given a damn about in 17 years.

[CyberCubed]

Cartoon Krang was an incompetent weakling with an annoying voice, IDW Krang is a psychopath who wears the skin of his enemies.

You're calling Pat Farley's voice annoying? Wow, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone, in my 15 years of being part of the online TMNT fandom, say they found Krang's voice annoying. Pat Farley is almost considered the best and most iconic Krang voice we ever had.

As for IDW Krang, he's basically just Ch'rell from the 2k3 series.

Cartoon Bebop and Rocksteady behaved like children, IDW Bebop and Rocksteady are destructive monsters who makes light of extreme violence.
Cartoon Slash was a moron obsessed with palm trees, IDW Slash has extreme mood swings.
Cartoon Mutagen Man was worried he wouldn't be able to deliver a letter, IDW Mutagen Manis suicidal.

Well this is all common sense. Of course the characters will be reimagined. Look at the way the Nick cartoon versions have changed too, Rocksteady is Russian and Bebop twirls around like Michael Jackson. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the original incarnations, its that we get new takes to fit their universe.

Why do you think Rocksteady/Bebop keep coming back in the first place? They've returned in every new series (IDW, Nick, and now the movie), and are still the most popular mutant henchmen in the franchise. And its because of their original incarnations that they keep returning. Sure there was Archie Bebop/Rocksteady too, but they were too short-lived in that series to be as memorable as the Fred Wolf versions.

[Zak The Neutrino]

You're calling Pat Farley's voice annoying? Wow, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone, in my 15 years of being part of the online TMNT fandom, say they found Krang's voice annoying. Pat Farley is almost considered the best and most iconic Krang voice we ever had.

As for IDW Krang, he's basically just Ch'rell from the 2k3 series.



Well this is all common sense. Of course the characters will be reimagined. Look at the way the Nick cartoon versions have changed too, Rocksteady is Russian and Bebop twirls around like Michael Jackson. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the original incarnations, its that we get new takes to fit their universe.

Why do you think Rocksteady/Bebop keep coming back in the first place? They've returned in every new series (IDW, Nick, and now the movie), and are still the most popular mutant henchmen in the franchise. And its because of their original incarnations that they keep returning. Sure there was Archie Bebop/Rocksteady too, but they were too short-lived in that series to be as memorable as the Fred Wolf versions.

I'm really surprised to say I agree with Cubed on this one.

[plastroncafe]

Krang's voice was/is super annoying.
That was kind of the point, but the fact remains.

[CyberCubed]

Krang's voice was/is super annoying.
That was kind of the point, but the fact remains.

When I think of annoying, I think bad. I never thought that about the voice.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

My 2 cents? Ch'rell is just a serious take on Krang and is what Krang SHOULD be.

It's kinda genius how 4Kids blended Krang and Shredder into one character, from a certain POV. Of course, from another POV, it's absolutely infuriating. :tlol:

[CyberCubed]

Krang being "fun" or comedic is a huge aspect of his character. Take that away and he becomes way too much like Ch'rell.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Krang being "fun" or comedic is a huge aspect of his character. Take that away and he becomes way too much like Ch'rell.

Nah, not really. Only because the Fred Wolf cartoon didn't portray any characters seriously.

Krang is an intergalactic interdimensional psychopathic conquering tyrant. What part of that has to be "fun" or "comedic?"

[ABrown]

Does the original cartoon deserve to get ridiculed for the ridiculousness that took place in action cartoons back in the 80's? ABSOLUTELY. A big part of being a fan of franchises from the 80's is making fun of the ridiculous things that took place during them.

Now does it deserve to get blamed for anything, no. Without it, there might not ever have been the original live movies, the 4Kids series, and now the current Nickelodeon show/movies.

[CyberCubed]

Nah, not really. Only because the Fred Wolf cartoon didn't portray any characters seriously.

Krang is an intergalactic interdimensional psychopathic conquering tyrant. What part of that has to be "fun" or "comedic?"

Actually IDW did portray Krang like this in his micro when he was younger. He was a selfish, spoiled prince. Its only after he had to survive on that planet alone that he became serious and psychotic.

[Ceres]

Actually IDW did portray Krang like this in his micro when he was younger. He was a selfish, spoiled prince. Its only after he had to survive on that planet alone that he became serious and psychotic.

Not really, he was a spoiled and probably adolescent brat before he went to Morbus but in no way comedic or funny. At least not in the way FW Krang used to be.
And FW Krang was only goofy when he was teamed up with Shredder because of their married couple dynamic.

[Powder]

He never said he was funny.

[Galactus]

While the 1987 animated series could be seen as something which while making TMNT the huge phenomenon and a pop culture mainstay it had the drawback of making sure the brand could never be seen anything but a complete ridiculousness for kids.

I don't think the blame can be laid at the door of the show. The real blame is that everyone has let it.

TMNT isn't the only the comic book property that has had light hearted ultra goofy televised shows to advertise toys and yet no one holds that against the Justice League because of Super Friends. Batman himself is in many ways is comparable to TMNT in that it became well known due to a highly popular camp television show yet that doesn't hold back different takes.

Granted TMNT has some handicaps in this regard. The big one being that they are anthropomorphic animal characters which many people find hard to take as seriously. Beyond that the fact that Mirage was an indie publisher and still fairly 'new' still there's little reason why people in general are so dismissive of the comics or indeed any version other the Fred Wolf show as an irrelevance.

What's really weird is in doesn't seem as well remembered. Ask most people what Raphael's personality is and you'd get far more people saying that he's a loner or a hot head as opposed to the sarcastic one which he was in the show. Likewise Fred Wolf didn't like the idea of the turtles and Splinter being a family and while Wise and other writers sometimes try to portray them as such the idea of the turtles being brothers and Splinter their father is a theme that's really stuck. Heck even things like their nicknames of Leo, Don, Raph and Mike were never used in the show.

If memory serves Eastman and Laird pitched to the big two, and turned down.
Mirage helped to usher in the age of the Indy Comic, which I think would have happened regardless of whether or not the FW toon came to be. I think the TMNT would have had the same impact it did on comics, just not the global phenomenon that it became because of the toon.

Eastman and Laird pitched the Fugitoid to different comic publishers but no dice perhaps due to that they were always going to self publish TMNT.

They did get an offer from Marvel to publish TMNT comics later on when the show became a hit. Presumably a comic based on the cartoon and a collection of the Mirage works similar to what they did with Elfquest. Peter and Kevin didn't really feel okay with working with Marvel due to their treatment of Kirby but did attend a meeting with them and Marvel said they wanted most of the profits from merchandising - needless to say they didn't take it.

[CyberCubed]

What I find baffling is people acting like Mirage or 2k3 influence hasn't also affected every series. The Bay movies may be going full OT nostalgia mode, but not the others:

- The 2k3 series influence is seen in all modern versions of Karai. The 2k3 series made Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter. The Nick cartoon does the same thing, make Karai into Shredder's adoptive daughter. The IDW comic makes Karai his Great Great grandaughter.

- Bishop has appeared in both the Nick cartoon and IDW comic

- Hun made his way into Mirage, a breakthrough since Mirage virtually never uses cartoon created characters, as well as IDW. There is a Nick Hun too but he doesn't resemble him.

- Fugitoid and the Triceratons, as well as the Utroms, have all appeared in Nick and IDW. Fugitoid/Utroms were never in the original cartoon.

- Renet has appeared in both Nick and IDW.

- Shredder having history to ancient Japan, the 2k3 series had him born in ancient Japan, is the same thing IDW did with their Shredder...only adding Hamato Yoshi into it as well.

- Shredder clones appeared in the Nick cartoon of all things


There is a lot of Mirage and 2k3 series influence in modern TMNT as well

[neatoman]

Why do you think Rocksteady/Bebop keep coming back in the first place? They've returned in every new series (IDW, Nick, and now the movie), and are still the most popular mutant henchmen in the franchise. And its because of their original incarnations that they keep returning. Sure there was Archie Bebop/Rocksteady too, but they were too short-lived in that series to be as memorable as the Fred Wolf versions.

I'm honestly not sure Bebop and Rocksteady are liked for the way they were written in the cartoon, it seems more likely that it simply has to do with their prominence in the cartoon and the nostalgia of the cartoon.

[CyberCubed]

I'm honestly not sure Bebop and Rocksteady are liked for the way they were written in the cartoon, it seems more likely that it simply has to do with their prominence in the cartoon and the nostalgia of the cartoon.

Bebop and Rocksteady had very funny moments and dialogue in the cartoon. Their banter with Shredder is great in many episode. The episodes they star in or have huge roles are also pretty funny.

Also a trio of bumbling villains was pretty common in kids cartoons at the time. Shredder/Bebop/Rocksteady are like Team Rocket from Pokemon, or Emperor Pilaf and his minions from Dragonball. They're comedic villains who try too hard to be evil and are thwarted every time.

[Bry]

My 2 cents? Ch'rell is just a serious take on Krang and is what Krang SHOULD be.

Case in point, and weird to agree with Cubed (:lol:), but: IDW Krang does have more in common with Ch'rell than Fred Wolf Krang. Classic Krang only works as-is in a campy, self-aware comedy universe like Fred Wolf. Go for anything "deeper" than that (like you really should for the long-term viability of the property) and Classic Krang doesn't really work at all anymore.

Incidentally, I've grown to vastly prefer Ch'rell and IDW Krang. :trazz:

[Leo656]

"Duuhhhh" and "You'se guys" is "Great Banter", apparently. Imagine that. :lol:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

"Duuhhhh" and "You'se guys" is "Great Banter", apparently. Imagine that. :lol:

Don't forget "say yer prayers, toitles." That's the extent of their dialogue.

Case in point, and weird to agree with Cubed (:lol:), but: IDW Krang does have more in common with Ch'rell than Fred Wolf Krang. Classic Krang only works as-is in a campy, self-aware comedy universe like Fred Wolf. Go for anything "deeper" than that (like you really should for the long-term viability of the property) and Classic Krang doesn't really work at all anymore.

Incidentally, I've grown to vastly prefer Ch'rell and IDW Krang. :trazz:

Absolutely.

[CyberCubed]

"Duuhhhh" and "You'se guys" is "Great Banter", apparently. Imagine that. :lol:

Except that's not how they usually talk in the OT at all. They had a lot of funny dialogue while interacting with Shredder, the Turtles, or each other.

[Leo656]

"Funny" as in, "A groan with a chuckle at the end of it while rubbing your temples as your brain does its best to digest the barrage of horrible puns and 'clever' wordplay", then, yeah, "Funny". :lol:

All the dialog on that cartoon is "funny", yeah... in the "Gong Show"/"Oh, man, get the hook!" kind of way. Not "Haha, that's clever and well-written" funny. I mean, that's fine, they were aiming for their audience, great, just call it what it is.

Puns are the lowest form of humor and that show is guilty as F*CK. :trazz:

[CyberCubed]

The show was very nuanced, and had sophisticated layers of depth and intricate humor. It was filled with satire, drypan humor, and on the fly moments.

Its pretty evident from anyone who watches it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Except that's not how they usually talk in the OT at all. They had a lot of funny dialogue while interacting with Shredder, the Turtles, or each other.

You wanna see Bebop and Rocksteady done right? Go read their micro-issue or "Attack on Technodrome" again. THAT'S what the public should get in a movie, not the Fred Wolf "I want my mommy" comedy bullsh*t.

[CyberCubed]

You wanna see Bebop and Rocksteady done right? Go read their micro-issue or "Attack on Technodrome" again. THAT'S what the public should get in a movie, not the Fred Wolf "I want my mommy" comedy bullsh*t.

That was a good issue, but I don't care for them how they are in the main ongoing as much. Saying things like, "Rock" and "Bopster" and just talking about how tough they are. The writer for the micro was a lot better.

Bebop and Rocksteady have much more memorable banter in the OT.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

That was a good issue, but I don't care for them how they are in the main ongoing as much. Saying things like, "Rock" and "Bopster" and just talking about how tough they are. The writer for the micro was a lot better.

Bebop and Rocksteady have much more memorable banter in the OT.

No, they really don't.

Y'know what is memorable?

Taking down the Turtles, Splinter, Nobody, Alopex, and the Mutanimals without breaking a sweat. Not enough?

SMASHING DONATELLO TO PIECES WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER.

[CyberCubed]

No, they really don't.

Y'know what is memorable?

Taking down the Turtles, Splinter, Nobody, Alopex, and the Mutanimals without breaking a sweat. Not enough?

SMASHING DONATELLO TO PIECES WITH A SLEDGEHAMMER.

So making them overpowered hulks makes them all that interesting? They should be competent, sure, but not overpowered to the point where they're able to take down 10 other opponents at the same time.

IDW's Bebop and Rocksteady are largely there for nostalgia the most.

[Leo656]

I haven't read IDW but I agree that a "proper" take on Bebop and Rocksteady would rather show them as monstrous beasts who are dangerous, not seemingly-dangerous villains who are actually dumb as a box of rocks and a couple of whiny babies, besides.

I wouldn't even mind a version where their humanity was overriden by their bestial side and their animal bloodlust, and they couldn't even talk, period. Maybe grunt a few short words, like names or whatever, but that's all. All they'd do is terrorize and kill because that's all they know how to do anymore after the mutation destroyed their human minds. I'd love that. And if they have to talk, at least limit their vocabulary a little bit. Make them a little more bestial than human, to heighten the contrast between them and the Turtles beyond "Good Mutants" and "Evil Mutants". Then the characters become infinitely more interesting. "We're gonna mash you toitles inta mush!" can stay the f*ck home, that sh*t was corny and played out when I was 9.

The problem with Bebop and Rocksteady is, they look like bad-asses, but they're pussies, at least in FW. They were the ultimate "Good setup, awful follow-through". They introduce them like they're going to be such a big deal, and instead they're buffoons immediately. We know they're ultimately no threat to the Turtles because if you left those two alone with a can of soup, they'd somehow knock themselves unconscious with it, so they're not even "villains" anymore, they're a bump in the road, mere "time-wasting filler as the Turtles go from Point A to Z, plot-wise." Even as a kid I hated that. I've always hated when cool-looking villains get wasted as comic relief. I've long defended Bebop and Rocksteady as viable characters but I feel the original versions are nothing but a rough sketch of something potentially much better and more satisfying.

[CyberCubed]

The thing is strip away their humor than why use them? Replace Bebop/Rocksteady with any other animal duo and there would be no difference. I mean we've seen tons of other mutant pairs in the series and they're completely different characters.

Bebop/Rocksteady work because they're supposed to be comic relief. Otherwise replace them with anyone else like Dogpound/Fishface, or Bludgeon/Koya from IDW, or Rahzar/Tokka...and you get anyone else.

[Cyndaquilfan123]

Honestly, I've only seen the First Season of the Fred Wolf show, and I liked it. But, It's shaped the public's view of the Turtles. There are kids at my school that wear TMNT stuff because it's green. (Our Class Color is Green) They probably don't even know there's a Nick cartoon...

[Leo656]

The thing is strip away their humor than why use them? Replace Bebop/Rocksteady with any other animal duo and there would be no difference. I mean we've seen tons of other mutant pairs in the series and they're completely different characters.

Bebop/Rocksteady work because they're supposed to be comic relief. Otherwise replace them with anyone else like Dogpound/Fishface, or Bludgeon/Koya from IDW, or Rahzar/Tokka...and you get anyone else.

Because once you're not 8 anymore, "comic relief villains" are a worthless waste of time? I think that's good enough.

Bad guys are supposed to be BAD GUYS. The one and only reason Bebop and Rocksteady were comic relief in the FIRST place is because of the limits that contemporary standards and practices had placed on a children's show. If they had first been created as characters for ANY other media, you can bet that they would have been much closer to what I've described above. So we shouldn't be married to the idea that they HAVE to be Dumb Comic Relief. That was due to the necessary restrictions of the medium, not because "that's the BEST way to use those characters". I'd argue "If all they're going to be is fodder, too dumb to tie their own shoes and no real threat to the Turtles whatsoever, THEN why use them at all?" is the much stronger argument. You could keep about 9/10s of everything "important" about Bebop and Rocksteady, and still be faithful while making them an actual, credible threat to the Turtles, not merely two guys whose job is to show up, make puns, then get hit and fall down. That's a colossal waste of two visually-interesting characters.

If your "villain" doesn't make the heroic characters go, "Oh, sh*t" when they face each other, your villain sucks and needs to go back to the drawing board. "Comic relief villains". Feh. :roll: Then the story's literally a waste of time because there's no actual conflict, because there is no threat, and the story becomes filler. Who needs that? Those are the absolute worst kinds of throwaway characters, and I honestly think it's a disservice to Bebop and Rocksteady to keep them in that kind of little "box". They look bad-ass, they should BE bad-ass.

[Shark_Blade]

I should this first, I never watched the 80s show it was before my time so I can t agree or disagree with anyone on how good or bad it is. But I have noticed a lot of resentment towards it.

People dislike the impact its had and think it has too much hold over the franchise today. And to me thats not really something for it to be held responsible for. Thats the fault of the people that the franchise is currently in the hands of.

What does everyone else think?

It got blamed by some (very small, minuscule, insignificant number of) people for spreading tmnt-mania? Ha! :lol: Who cares.

We got IDW Bebop and Rocksteady (and Nick and Bay film versions of them) because of OT. We got Megan Fox as April in iconic yellow because of OT (heck all Aprils have their trademark yellow basically due to OT). We're getting Krang in Android body in upcoming film due to OT. Baxter became a fly in Nick due to OT. Party Wagon, Irma, etc.. there's so much more!

We owe OT so much and it's here to stay permanently (thank God). :tlove: It's pretty much the benchmark for the franchise now.

[TMNT_Guy]

I think the original cartoon is still one of the best depictions of the turtles, concept wise, even though the writing rarely followed through with it.

I will agree that many writers pull too much from the original series, I still think the first live action movie is still the best adaptation of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It took elements from the old cartoon, April being a reporter, multicolored headbands, etc, but it was first and foremost an adaptation of the comics that everything has come from. Sometimes I think TMNT writers concentrate too much on being new and different instead of trying to understand what made these stories and characters good in the first place.

I think all these reinterpretations over time are just going to confuse the public. Were the turtles accidentally mutated by a race of aliens, mutated by a disembodied brain from Dimension X, or were they human children reincarnated into turtles? Perhaps experiments to create the ultimate heroes? Is April a former lab assistant? A reporter? Archaeologist? How about a teenager with psychic powers? I feel that sooner or later, perhaps even now, it’s going to get to the point that no one can even agree on what these characters are anymore...let alone what the tone should be.

Until we get a movie/TV series that faithfully retells the events of the Mirage comics in great detail, I don’t think many die hard fans are ever going to respect the Fred Wolf series. Even if we do, there will still be those who detest it.

[Leo656]

http://www.ruralintelligence.com/images/blogs/blue-ribbons.gif
Here, you've earned this.

[CyberCubed]

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

[Leo656]

Is it really that hard to believe that some people just don't dig "silly"? I don't think it is.

It's fine that you like it as much now as you did then. A lot of people outgrew it and there's nothing wrong with that either. Lots of us would prefer to see some of those elements from the cartoon done better elsewhere. Since it's 30 years later and everything.

[CyberCubed]

Well that's why I also enjoy the 2k3 cartoon and the IDW comic. They're the most serious and plot-driven versions since Mirage. The Nick cartoon I'm fine with too, although I prefer the original cartoons drypan humor over Nick's "loud" humor.

[Shark_Blade]

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

I'd still say Season 1 is the best what OT could offer. I watched it when they released the turtle van dvd combo and never got to Season 10 since the later Seasons kinda dragged (some I binged watched on youtube like Leatherhead and Casey Jones episodes)..

But yeah Season 1 is awesome (story, animationwise) and it's the best thing if you want a quick feel what OT is all about.

[Leo656]

I don't always stop at Season One, but I often do. It just usually ends up being the "just right" amount of Old School TMNT. There were other great episodes all the way through that are worth it but I still get around to them less frequently.

There's something about being able to watch a full "Season" of the show in a quick afternoon, feel like you've seen the best and most satisfying part of something, and then go on and do something else with your day, having had a full experience. Later seasons had more and more misfires or skip-worthy ones, or ones you just had to be in the mood for, but Season One is good anytime.

Kinda have a soft spot for the Burger King Kids Club VHS episodes, though, not gonna lie. :trazz: Like Sky Turtles and The Great Boldini and that sh*t. :lol: Those ended up being among my favorites simply because I watched them a thousand times.

[neatoman]

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

But I've watched a couple of episodes just last month and I didn't like them, so I don't think "Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades" seems like it would be accurate. If that was was true then they didn't even like the show when they were children.

It seems more likely to me that a lot of people grew up, sat down to watch a few episodes for the sake of nostalgia and simply didn't like the show as adults.

[ssjup81]

But I've watched a couple of episodes just last month and I didn't like them, so I don't think "Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades" seems like it would be accurate. If that was was true then they didn't even like the show when they were children.

It seems more likely to me that a lot of people grew up, sat down to watch a few episodes for the sake of nostalgia and simply didn't like the show as adults.Ironically, I like the show more now than I did as a kid. Of course there are some things that do bug me about it, but that goes with any show or movie or book, but I do genuinely still like it. Actually, I hadn't seen any of the OT until I registered on this board.

[Prowler]

I think the original cartoon is still one of the best depictions of the turtles, concept wise, even though the writing rarely followed through with it.

I will agree that many writers pull too much from the original series, I still think the first live action movie is still the best adaptation of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. It took elements from the old cartoon, April being a reporter, multicolored headbands, etc, but it was first and foremost an adaptation of the comics that everything has come from. Sometimes I think TMNT writers concentrate too much on being new and different instead of trying to understand what made these stories and characters good in the first place.

I think all these reinterpretations over time are just going to confuse the public. Were the turtles accidentally mutated by a race of aliens, mutated by a disembodied brain from Dimension X, or were they human children reincarnated into turtles? Perhaps experiments to create the ultimate heroes? Is April a former lab assistant? A reporter? Archaeologist? How about a teenager with psychic powers? I feel that sooner or later, perhaps even now, it’s going to get to the point that no one can even agree on what these characters are anymore...let alone what the tone should be.

Until we get a movie/TV series that faithfully retells the events of the Mirage comics in great detail, I don’t think many die hard fans are ever going to respect the Fred Wolf series. Even if we do, there will still be those who detest it.
Man, the TMNT franchise having different characterizations and alignments in each incarnation is one of its most interesting things, but also one of its most annoying ones. You get to a point where you might as well just create a new character altogether than give a completely different personality to an already existent one. Otherwise it will just feel like glorified fanfiction, and as you've mentioned, it will confuse fans.

The problem isn't with Mirage fans respecting Fred Wolf or not since they're the minority and most Turtle fans aren't Mirage fans at all or are even aware of tis existence for the most part. I think it's mostly the Fred Wolf crowd that is the problem due to "THIS AREN'T THE TURTLES I GREW UP WITH!". And that's where having many different versions can cause such a division in the TMNT fandom. Most people will just be a fan of one or two versions. The ones who are into FW, 4Kids, Nick, IDW and Mirage are quite a minority.

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

Most people who dislike the OT... they represent what? 3% of the fanbase? Because what I see more often is people who grew up with the OT praising it despite not having watched it in ages. The minority who dislikes the OT for not being faithful to Mirage among other things hardly has a voice.

I don't always stop at Season One, but I often do. It just usually ends up being the "just right" amount of Old School TMNT. There were other great episodes all the way through that are worth it but I still get around to them less frequently.

There's something about being able to watch a full "Season" of the show in a quick afternoon, feel like you've seen the best and most satisfying part of something, and then go on and do something else with your day, having had a full experience. Later seasons had more and more misfires or skip-worthy ones, or ones you just had to be in the mood for, but Season One is good anytime.

Kinda have a soft spot for the Burger King Kids Club VHS episodes, though, not gonna lie. :trazz: Like Sky Turtles and The Great Boldini and that sh*t. :lol: Those ended up being among my favorites simply because I watched them a thousand times.

Season One was definitely great. Especially the first two episodes. I think I'll love Turtle tracks and Enter The Shredder forever. I can see myself still watching those episodes when I'm 70 and on my deathbed :P. The show would have been better if it had stayed the way it was in season 1 until the very end. And I'm sure it would have still been pretty successful. I mean, season one might be episodic, but it's not like it's totally different from the rest of the show until Red Sky. The difference is, the Turtles use their weapons to fight and Shredder seems more threatening and competent. As do Bebop and Rocksteady, for that matter. But hey, helicopter parents hated Ninja weapons. :tgrumble:

I used to re-watch the FW series every Summer break until 2008. I did skip some episodes, though. But I still loved the show a lot back then.

FW due to its episodic nature, isn't the best show to marathon except for Season 1 and the final 3 seasons. It's an alright show for its time, but it had a lot of missed opportunities and untapped potential as well. I think the most annoying parts of it happen in season 4 and 5 when they were just focused on pumping out episode after episode. The comedy would be a bit cringy in those seasons at times. And I don't like how the city o New York got WAAAAAY too comfortable with the idea of 4 mutant turtles walking around the block.

Ironically, I like the show more now than I did as a kid. Of course there are some things that do bug me about it, but that goes with any show or movie or book, but I do genuinely still like it. Actually, I hadn't seen any of the OT until I registered on this board.
I don't like it more now than when I was a kid. As a kid I sorta thought it was something badass. Although as I got into my teens, I was already deluding myself thinking that and didn't believe in it deep down. I still believed they'd kill Shredder in the last episode, though. Quite wishful thinking of me, but Red Sky did spice things up for a while. Plus, when I got into my teens, the 4Kids series had begun, and now that one seemed badass to me while FW was looking cheesy and childish. But looking back, 4Kids wasn't that badass either and was just another 20 minute toy advert. :lol:

I'll always have fond memories of FW but I dislike how the franchise and the media have hung on so much to it and how many TMNT fans think it's the be it all of the franchise and it should be the rule for it. Nothing wrong with taking some elements from it, but it shouldn't go down as the only remembered version of it. Let's see if the Nick series will be remembered in 20 years from now. As far as I know, it has had more commercial success than the 4Kids series thus far... in fact, would you guys believe it that several people still have no idea that there was a TMNt cartoon running from 2002/2003 to 2009? There's people who don't know about the Nick show too, but from my experience way more people know about the Nick toon than they do about the 4Kids one.

[twopinacoladas]

If you look back at it it was pretty goofy and light hearted but perfect for those 4-10 year old kids at the time. I think now watching it there are lots of good episodes and some that are good for nostalgia. Then others while not terribly bad that seemed to repeat the same story it was a good show at the time and it had its place.

If it wasn't for the show me and most people would never of gotten into TMNT and at least speaking for my self I wouldn't have been able to get into and appreciate the comics, films, 2k3 show and even the 2012 show I don't like all aspects of it as I think it is to mutant heavy but they have done some things nicely. Without the original cartoon the films probably wouldn't exist or the 2k3/2012 show etc.

[Candy Kappa]

I certainly enjoy FW a lot more as an adult after seeing the show in its entirety (and original budding), a lot of the jokes and the dry humor resonates more.

As a kid I loathed the FW with a fiery passion.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

It depends on how much you watch. Season 1 is very enjoyable but by season 3 it gets pretty bad. I've had several friends go back and watch them and they can't even stand season 1.

[Prowler]

It depends on how much you watch. Season 1 is very enjoyable but by season 3 it gets pretty bad. I've had several friends go back and watch them and they can't even stand season 1.
Season 3 is still quite good, imo. Season 4 not so much. Half of the season 4 episodes are quite skippable. Plus, many of them have pretty bad animation. Plus, the European vacation episodes were made at the time, so technically they're part of season 4, even though they aired between season 6 and 7 in many places. And most of those European vacation episodes were mediocre. So that's less points for season 4.

The second "worst" season of the show was season 9, imo.

[Zak The Neutrino]

Season 3 is still quite good, imo. Season 4 not so much. Half of the season 4 episodes are quite skippable. Plus, many of them have pretty bad animation. Plus, the European vacation episodes were made at the time, so technically they're part of season 4, even though they aired between season 6 and 7 in many places. And most of those European vacation episodes were mediocre. So that's less points for season 4.

The second "worst" season of the show was season 9, imo.

I think I'm thinking of season 4. Whenever I try to watch the series I get stalled out around there.

[Prowler]

I think I'm thinking of season 4. Whenever I try to watch the series I get stalled out around there.
Both had almost 100 episodes in total, so it's understandable.

For reference, If the technodrome is at the Earth core, it's a season 3 episode. If it's in Dimension X, then it's a season 4 episode.

[Wesley]

There were a lot of great, average and bad episodes. One of the problems with the show is that it went on for too long and too many episodes were made. It could've been condensed into five seasons. I think that the shorter seasons of the cartoon like one and seven were the best.

A lot of episodes aren't as good as I remembered them as a kid. I watched the Cowabunga Classics DVD nearly a year ago and thought half of the eps on it were boring and too silly. Those eps proved that Turtles Forever got the personalities of the OT characters nearly right.

The OT started out good, but went downhill after season one, though the later seasons had some decent episodes. It tried to get back on track around season 7, but it was too late, as a lot of fans had outgrown it at that point and moved on to other shows.

[CyberCubed]

Season 3 is actually how people remember the OT the most besides Season 1. Season 3 was when the show was at the height of its popularity ratings wise and was the most rerun season on TV. The bulk of Season 3 is very good and fun, with only a few awful episodes, (the one with the Irma robot), the recap ep, and the one where Mike turns human for an ep.

Season 4 is a bit more of a mixed bag since this is when the show was starting to get repetitive, but there are still some great episodes there. Some of the weakest episodes of the series are in this season, but it still has some good ones.

Seasons 5 and 6, again, have a mix of great episodes and some dull episodes. But since they're shorter seasons overall there's less overball bad episodes.

Season 7 was the best the show was since Season 1. All 13 episodes are pretty fun and the show has more action this season.

Seasons 8-10 are of course the final seasons, and this is where the show was revamped.

[Prowler]

Season 3 is actually how people remember the OT the most besides Season 1. Season 3 was when the show was at the height of its popularity ratings wise and was the most rerun season on TV. The bulk of Season 3 is very good and fun, with only a few awful episodes, (the one with the Irma robot), the recap ep, and the one where Mike turns human for an ep.

Season 4 is a bit more of a mixed bag since this is when the show was starting to get repetitive, but there are still some great episodes there. Some of the weakest episodes of the series are in this season, but it still has some good ones.

Seasons 5 and 6, again, have a mix of great episodes and some dull episodes. But since they're shorter seasons overall there's less overball bad episodes.

Season 7 was the best the show was since Season 1. All 13 episodes are pretty fun and the show has more action this season.

Seasons 8-10 are of course the final seasons, and this is where the show was revamped.
I agree with you for the most part. I'd say that the first 3 seasons are the most memorable ones of the FW show. It's quite incredible how so many people still remember April turning into a cat and the Punk Frogs debut episode after all these years.

I find seasons 8 and 10 to be pretty good as well. 9 not so much. It wasn't bad by any mean, but it wasn't that great as a whole. I prefer "mad" Dregg from season 10. He got more interesting and more ruthless in the final season. Season 9 had Split-Second though. A hell of an episode with a great one shot villain. Plus, the Turtles' mutations were actually useful for once. But in the Doomquest episode, they just held them down.

Season one was the best season of the show followed by season 7. Now as for the 3rd best season... I'm not so sure. 2 and 3 were both pretty good, but I also feel tempted to award seasons 8 and 10 the 3rd place on the podium. But the show was revamped and quite different by then, so it's hard to compare.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

So making them overpowered hulks makes them all that interesting? They should be competent, sure, but not overpowered to the point where they're able to take down 10 other opponents at the same time.

IDW's Bebop and Rocksteady are largely there for nostalgia the most.

Nope, Bebop and Rocksteady have only been used in IDW for specific purposes. You know what versions of B&R are largely nostalgia driven and nothing else? Nick TMNT. They're barely anything like the original.

And hell yeah, I should be terrified at the thought of the TMNT going up against them. And I have been, each time. After "New Mutant Order", when I saw Donatello was going up against them all by himself, I just shook my head sadly and said, "This is going to end tragically." And it sure as hell did.

And then I was terrified again in the Gauntlet battle... four Turtles against Bebop and Rocksteady plus Koya and Bludgeon? Holy sh!t, this sh!t just got real and hit the fan all at once!

The thing is strip away their humor than why use them? Replace Bebop/Rocksteady with any other animal duo and there would be no difference. I mean we've seen tons of other mutant pairs in the series and they're completely different characters.

Bebop/Rocksteady work because they're supposed to be comic relief. Otherwise replace them with anyone else like Dogpound/Fishface, or Bludgeon/Koya from IDW, or Rahzar/Tokka...and you get anyone else.

IDW B&R are hilarious, from smashing open an ATM so they can pay for breakfast, to "stupid Lobster missed" to their fight with Mikey and Raph, to worrying about ghosts in "City Fall"... every time, they're a laugh riot.

And nothing is more terrifying for me than a funny slaughterhouse. It's like the Joker, except more comedic. Everything's funny to me, even smashing open a turtle shell and saying "gross" at what I see! IDW is what Bebop and Rocksteady always should have been.

Except for the cement truck fight in "Shredder is Splintered", or whatever, I could never take them seriously in Fred Wolf. They were just wasted potential.

Most of the people who do dislike the OT haven't watched it in decades, likely since they were children themselves, so I don't think it even matters.

I marathon the show every 2-3 years, and enjoy it as much every time. Aside from some of the crappier episodes, I still enjoy at least 75% of the shows total episodes. Just erase the European Vacation eps, and some of the crappier episodes from the middle seasons, and the rest is good.

I've watched probably ten episodes of the Fred Wolf show in the last year, and watched the first two episodes of Season 1 with my son last week. I still hate it. I outgrew it, because "dumb goofy fun" is no longer fun for me.

So nah, you're wrong.

[CyberCubed]

Nope, Bebop and Rocksteady have only been used in IDW for specific purposes. You know what versions of B&R are largely nostalgia driven and nothing else? Nick TMNT. They're barely anything like the original.

They're still too overpowered in IDW. It literally took 10 characters to bring them down plus a building. And the second time only cause Metalhead blew up on them. Not even Koya or Bludgeon are portrayed like that. It seems IDW tried to compensate for them being pushovers in the OT to making them nearly invincible, which I don't think was the best of ideas.

Nick's Bebop/Rocksteady are OK, but at least I can appreciate they tried to do something different with them.


I've watched probably ten episodes of the Fred Wolf show in the last year, and watched the first two episodes of Season 1 with my son last week. I still hate it. I outgrew it, because "dumb goofy fun" is no longer fun for me.

So nah, you're wrong.

What did you hate about the first two episodes? They were quite good and entertaining.

IDW also turned Krang into a generic alien conqueror, with his only defining trait being his loyalty to the Utroms. Seriously place IDW Shredder and Krang side by side when you hear them speak, they almost have the same exact personality. Shredder says, "Don't fail me again!" Krang threatens Baxter and Fugitoid the same way. They both act arrogant and then cause their own downfall.

Krang and Shredder nearly have the same personality in IDW, if it wasn't for their different backstories, you couldn't tell the difference. This was especially noticeable when they met for the first time.

[shuriken]

I don't always stop at Season One, but I often do. It just usually ends up being the "just right" amount of Old School TMNT. There were other great episodes all the way through that are worth it but I still get around to them less frequently.

There's something about being able to watch a full "Season" of the show in a quick afternoon, feel like you've seen the best and most satisfying part of something, and then go on and do something else with your day, having had a full experience. Later seasons had more and more misfires or skip-worthy ones, or ones you just had to be in the mood for, but Season One is good anytime.

Kinda have a soft spot for the Burger King Kids Club VHS episodes, though, not gonna lie. :trazz: Like Sky Turtles and The Great Boldini and that sh*t. :lol: Those ended up being among my favorites simply because I watched them a thousand times.

I agree. The thing about the OT with it's 193 or (197?) episode run is that there are a good chunk of episodes that are objectively terrible. And I've seen some of the eps recently. That fish one is garbage, so are a lot of the middle season episodes. Season 1-3 are my fave IMO, then the red Sky eps (sue me). A lot of it is preference but honestly the series doesn't hold up that well.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

They're still too overpowered in IDW. It literally took 10 characters to bring them down plus a building. And the second time only cause Metalhead blew up on them. Not even Koya or Bludgeon are portrayed like that. It seems IDW tried to compensate for them being pushovers in the OT to making them nearly invincible, which I don't think was the best of ideas.

Nick's Bebop/Rocksteady are OK, but at least I can appreciate they tried to do something different with them.

I do agree that their too overpowered in IDW simply because it is going to be difficult to continue believably using them. But it does also allow for some great "brain over brawn" fight sequences... I think Mondo electrocuting them should have worked; that would have kept it quasi-believable.

However, remember: Bebop and Rocksteady are so far the only human-mutant hybrids. I can accept their level of insane power due to this reason... it will be interesting to see what their next appearance is.

What did you hate about the first two episodes? They were quite good and entertaining.

The pizza, the "Ninja Pizza", the endless neat for silly jokes like "Is it a death threat?" No, worse... the check." The entire building filling with water, the granny with a tommy gun, the "this rope was made in Japan... see? Made in Japan"... basically, every time the show forced a joke. Every single time.

I did like Bebop and Rocksteady getting locked in the zoo, and the big robot fight, and the Technodrome's endless traps... that's about it, really.

IDW also turned Krang into a generic alien conqueror, with his only defining trait being his loyalty to the Utroms. Seriously place IDW Shredder and Krang side by side when you hear them speak, they almost have the same exact personality. Shredder says, "Don't fail me again!" Krang threatens Baxter and Fugitoid the same way. They both act arrogant and then cause their own downfall.

Krang and Shredder nearly have the same personality in IDW, if it wasn't for their different backstories, you couldn't tell the difference. This was especially noticeable when they met for the first time.

Krang is motivated by his father's gluttonous wastes of the Utrom war machine, empire, supplies, and lives all for glory; he seeks to rebuild the homeworld they lost and to provide a new sanctuary for his people. He grew up from pampered prince to independent soldier and hero to savior of an entire species. He is motivated solely to create New Utrominon. His is a story of redemption gone wrong.

Oroku Saki is motivated by power, anger, and hatred. He hates his father for holding him back and then trying to kill him, for being controlled by forces he doesn't understand, and sees everything around him as betrayal: Yoshi, his father, his former master. He demands absolute loyalty and shows no warmth or loyalty in return; he is cold, calculated, and merciless.

The only thing they have in common is that they both use people for their own ends and punish failure. And how many villains of ANY series can you name that don't have those traits?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

On a slightly different tangent, a couple of you made the insightful observation that people such as myself RESENT Fred Wolf because the franchise has never been able to grow away from its Fred Wolf public perception.

That's absolutely it; I hadn't realized that most of my loathing for the series would go away if a public movie franchise was allowed to draw from ANY other source. But that hasn't been the case since Peter Laird was working with 4Kids, and never will be again.

The Nick series frustrates me because it tries to do its own thing but spectacularly fails to tell an overarching narrative with any consequence; some of its darkest and most serious aspects get glossed over for filler episodes, Mikey is a braindead idiot, Donnie has been reduced to genius lovesick puppy, April and Casey are terrible, and mutations just happen because toys. Bebop and Rocksteady, Rahzar, Karai... the show seemed to lose ANY interest in telling the story of Miwa.

I like some of what Nick brings to the table, mostly its new characters like Fishface, Dogpound, and Tiger Claw, but its storytelling is this weird hybrid of Fred Wolf goofiness and (occasionally) flickers of Mirage. But it seemingly always prefers to showcase new toys (sorry, one-off characters), make jokes, and prolong story arcs like Miwa and Donny/April with no desire for resolution.

Fred Wolf, meanwhile, is great for creating a bunch of concepts that deserve a more serious and character-driven revamp, but too much of it is relegated to pizza jokes and goofiness. I want to see more characters get the IDW treatment like Bebop, Rocksteady, and Mutagen Man did; I want to see good renditions of Dirtbag and Groundchuck, the Punk Frogs, Antrax and Scumbug, Ace Duck, and all those other great action figures. But even the Punk Frogs got screwed over by becoming a Napoleon Dynamite parody...

Long story short: Except for IDW, the best days of TMNT storytelling are long over.

[CyberCubed]

The pizza, the "Ninja Pizza", the endless neat for silly jokes like "Is it a death threat?" No, worse... the check." The entire building filling with water, the granny with a tommy gun, the "this rope was made in Japan... see? Made in Japan"... basically, every time the show forced a joke. Every single time

I found all those jokes quite humorous. Not sure what the problem is here. Its amusing quips.

Its the forced humor in the IDW comic, and the 2k3 series, that usually falls flat because its trying to be funny but doesn't. Mikey saying, "I can read more manga now!" when he realized he could read Japanese made me roll my eyes.



Long story short: Except for IDW, the best days of TMNT storytelling are long over.

I seriously doubt that's true.

[Powder]

Completely agree with Cubed.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I found all those jokes quite humorous. Not sure what the problem is here. Its amusing quips.

Its the forced humor in the IDW comic, and the 2k3 series, that usually falls flat because its trying to be funny but doesn't. Mikey saying, "I can read more manga now!" when he realized he could read Japanese made me roll my eyes.




I seriously doubt that's true.

Ugh. Well, all I can say is we have different senses of humor. More power to you, Cubed.

[TurtleTitan97]

I'd say the criticism is fair and on point. I don't find the OT to have aged too well honestly.

[CyberCubed]

Ugh. Well, all I can say is we have different senses of humor. More power to you, Cubed.

The type of humor in the OT is used in many comedy shows, even ones aimed at adults. I'd love to know what you find funny then...in comparison I suppose?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

The type of humor in the OT is used in many comedy shows, even ones aimed at adults. I'd love to know what you find funny then...in comparison I suppose?

I dunno, I have a hard time locking it down myself... basically it has to be really old (3 Stooges, Peter Sellers, classic Loony Tunes and Disney cartoons) or edgy. John Oliver, Pete Holmes, John Pinette... Flypaper, Deadpool, The Losers... <shrug>

But basically most recent comedies that people like just turn my stomach. I hate "Spaceballs", I hated "UHF"... oh, Dodgeball was good. Will Ferrell's great.

[Leo656]

My wife and I spent two f*cking hours today watching videos of Triumph the Insult Comic Dog. :lol: That wasn't even the plan, that's just how it went down.

...Hating Spaceballs, though, and UHF... that's not allowed... especially UHF. The hell, man...
http://ci.memecdn.com/148/8360148.jpg
:trazz:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I can't believe I forgot to say "Archer." That is the single funniest thing ever. EVER. Anyone who disagrees should have to bump uglies with Cyril. :tlol:

[Leo656]

Got that right, DickNuts.

Although they replay the episodes too much considering every night is a marathon and there's really not that many episodes. I've seen the entire series at least 5 times by now, and some episodes I've seen over a dozen.

Still funny though. Pam got HAWT when she was on the coke. But then, they all do.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Got that right, DickNuts.

Although they replay the episodes too much considering every night is a marathon and there's really not that many episodes. I've seen the entire series at least 5 times by now, and some episodes I've seen over a dozen.

Still funny though. Pam got HAWT when she was on the coke. But then, they all do.

Abso-bloody-lutely.

And Cheryl got hotter when she got into country. That bit with the popsicles cracks me up every time. Krieger: "Need film, need film, need film!!!" :tlol:

[Leo656]

Oh, God, Cheryl is so goddamn Retard Hot. :lol:

"CHOKE ME!!!" :lol:

[turtle1237]

All I have to say about this cartoon.

You can’t fix perfection .


The later shows try to be there own thing, but you cant out do perfect can you?

[neatoman]

All I have to say about this cartoon.

You can’t fix perfection .


The later shows try to be there own thing, but you cant out do perfect can you?

Did you just call the Fred Wolf cartoon "perfect"?
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In all seriousness though, how is something so cheap and lazy ever "perfect"?

[LeotheLateBloomer]

The type of humor in the OT is used in many comedy shows, even ones aimed at adults. I'd love to know what you find funny then...in comparison I suppose?

When the Adam West series has aged better than the Fred Wolf toon, that's saying something.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Oh, God, Cheryl is so goddamn Retard Hot. :lol:

"CHOKE ME!!!" :lol:

"No, not SLACK off..." :trazz:

[CyberCubed]

When the Adam West series has aged better than the Fred Wolf toon, that's saying something.

Uh, no? The Adam West show was also aimed at adults, of course there was going to be adult humor in that series. In terms of characters/story, its basically slapstick and villain of the week.

[TurtleGuy]

I'm starting to think I'm the only one on this forum who still likes this show unironically(and a little ironically)...

To me it's just a fun little show.

[MikeandRaph87]

I appreciate the 4th wall humor and puns much more than I did as a kid. The dialog is great. I do hate some of the goofy antics mid season 3- 6. Part of it holds up while other parts don't.

[CyberCubed]

I'm starting to think I'm the only one on this forum who still likes this show unironically(and a little ironically)...

To me it's just a fun little show.

Because some people think angst, faux-drama, depression, and violence are the only ways to write a show, apparently. For some reason people forget different genres exist when it comes to TMNT.

[TurtleGuy]

Because some people think angst, faux-drama, depression, and violence are the only ways to write a show, apparently. For some reason people forget different genres exist when it comes to TMNT.
Let's not generalize. It's just going to piss people off.

I'm well aware that the show is flawed. The writing can be hokey at times, and the lack of violence is annoying, but IMO the clever humor makes up for it.

Then again, it's probably also because I'm still not all that interested in the Mirage universe aside from the first movie and the 2k3 series.

[Mewzard]

Let's not generalize. It's just going to piss people off.

I'm well aware that the show is flawed. The writing can be hokey at times, and the lack of violence is annoying, but IMO the clever humor makes up for it.

Then again, it's probably also because I'm still not all that interested in the Mirage universe aside from the first movie and the 2k3 series.

Well, for the longest time (about two decades), the first movie was my Gold Standard of TMNT.

That only changed when I started reading the Mirage Comic. I saw so many of the elements I loved from the first movie that most incarnations seemed to ignore.

There's something about the way the story goes, the way the book feels, the style it has, all combined together that just work for me more than any other incarnation of the Turtles (at least, of my experience with Eastman and Laird's volume one issues).

I...I feel like I've seen some of the Fred Wolf Cartoon when I was very little (my older sister was a fan at the time), but honestly, my oldest memory of the franchise was the first movie (which came out when I was like two years old).

I really should go back and give it some more time.

My preference may be Mirage's more serious take, but I'm also a goofy bastard who enjoys silly comedies, and I was able to enjoy what I've read of Archie and IDW as well, so I suppose my tastes are open enough to give it a shot (I'm just committed financially at the moment, so it'll have to wait, lol).

There's nothing wrong with multiple takes on the franchise. I'd just love to see Mirage's take get more love. The first movie showed you could really do it justice on screen. Maybe it should get a nice black and white animated release, aim for the teen crowd/PG-13 (I don't think it's violent enough to warrant an R).

[ssjup81]

I appreciate the 4th wall humor and puns much more than I did as a kid. The dialog is great. I do hate some of the goofy antics mid season 3- 6. Part of it holds up while other parts don't.I think I fall into this category. This is why I seem to like it more now. I get all of the jokes.

[Wesley]

I appreciate the 4th wall humor and puns much more than I did as a kid. The dialog is great. I do hate some of the goofy antics mid season 3- 6. Part of it holds up while other parts don't.

Same here. I watched some of the episodes recently and found that there were a lot of good one-liners that went over my head as a kid such as Raphael's sarcastic remarks and the banter between Shredder and Krang.

Also, I still love the Red Sky seasons and think they had a good mix of drama, action and comic relief. I thought the three-way battle between Dregg, Shredder and the Turtles was great as a kid, as I hadn't seen that sort of dynamic on a show before at the time.

I would like to see some of the OT characters like Big Louie, Chronos, Krakus, Colonel Knight, etc. been used again. It was the characters that made the show worth watching most of the time. In any event, I think the show has aged better than other cartoons that were on at around the same time such as Sonic SatAM and Spiderman TAS.

[MikeandRaph87]

Yes, the quips by Raphael and Shredder and Krang's banter are what make it great. The dialog as whole really.

Here is an example of The Shredder/ Krang dynamic.
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I always saw potential with Dark Water and we are actually finally seeing it in IDW. Big Louie always seemed to be the most formidable of all of the mob bosses that appeared in the 1987 cartoon and elsewhere. Sure, he had a Godfather like gimmick and was a bit goofy, but that was because he was in the more comedic inspired seasons of the TMNT (1987) cartoon. I had plans of my own for Krakus, but don't know if he would appear beyond the 1987 cartoon. Chronos appeared in the best episode that did not include Shredder and Krang in the Red Sky era. It had Dregg only briefly and was not necessary. Yet the secondary mutations and Carter remained and it was still really good. It proves just how effect the crazed clock mastermind was.

[TMNT_Guy]

Honestly, out of the 193 episodes of the series, there are only 25 episodes that I always skip. I think that’s pretty good for a show that lasted for ten years, nearly every long running show is bound to have some stinkers.

Even then most of the episodes I skip aren’t bad, just that they have bad continuity or bad replacement voices. For example, The Ninja Sword of Nowhere is a good episode…but Raphael’s voice in that episode is terrible. The rest of the 168 episodes range from ok to awesome for me.

[MikeandRaph87]

Honestly, out of the 193 episodes of the series, there are only 25 episodes that I always skip. I think that’s pretty good for a show that lasted for ten years, nearly every long running show is bound to have some stinkers.

Even then most of the episodes I skip aren’t bad, just that they have bad continuity or bad replacement voices. For example, The Ninja Sword of Nowhere is a good episode…but Raphael’s voice in that episode is terrible. The rest of the 168 episodes range from ok to awesome for me.

It is funny that you use The Ninja Sword of Nowhere as the example. I usually cite it as of two poor plot devices found in season 3. An alien antique collector steals away the sword after coming out of nowhere and does not care about Splinter still being trapped? The crap kind of poor plotting is that to wrap up an episode? I used to roll my eyes at the Elvis impersonating aliens, but I can see it as aliens who are picking up radio and television signals from thirty years before and their way of fitting in amongst the populace from what they know and its funny to me as an adult. The second lazy plot device was the moth balls having a magic property in Michelangelo's Birthday and Splinter said he simply believed it was possible so it was. Those two wrap ups annoy the adult me.

[TurtleGuy]

"Funny" as in, "A groan with a chuckle at the end of it while rubbing your temples as your brain does its best to digest the barrage of horrible puns and 'clever' wordplay", then, yeah, "Funny". :lol:

All the dialog on that cartoon is "funny", yeah... in the "Gong Show"/"Oh, man, get the hook!" kind of way. Not "Haha, that's clever and well-written" funny. I mean, that's fine, they were aiming for their audience, great, just call it what it is.

Puns are the lowest form of humor and that show is guilty as F*CK. :trazz:

No. The lowest form of humor is pop culture references like Mikey saying "Zoinks" "Jinkies" "Ruh Roh", "You got some splaining to do" and a bunch of other lame catchphrases from other shows(Seriously, Raph, you chastise and smack Mikey for saying "cowabunga" but not that crap?).

And the humor wasn't all puns. There was a lot of self aware humor. Also, just for the heck of it, here are a few of my favorite lines from the series:

(Usagi Yojimbo)

Raphael: He's not only from medieval Japan, but also from an alternate universe, so naturally he speaks English.

(Plan Six From Outer Space)

Secretary: Education?
Rocksteady: I got four years of science school.
Secretary: And what did you study?
Rocksteady: I didn't study anything. They studied me!

(Leonardo, the Renaissance Turtle)

LEX-1: When will you humans realize that crime does not pay?
Leonardo: Warning shots for jaywalking?! You must have a loose fuse!
April O'Neil: For sure! This city has ENOUGH potholes in it already!
LEX-1: The prisoners will be put on bread and water for making wisecracks! Do you have any last words ?
April O'Neil: I can think of a few, (Aside Glance) but, they're not appropriate for television!

(Turtles at the Earth's Core)

Rocksteady: Gee boss, it ain't easy gettin' dinosaurs to obey.
Bebop: Yeah... (snorts) They're all muscle and no brains.
Shredder: (to the camera) I won't say it, it's too easy.

It is funny that you use The Ninja Sword of Nowhere as the example. I usually cite it as of two poor plot devices found in season 3. An alien antique collector steals away the sword after coming out of nowhere and does not care about Splinter still being trapped? The crap kind of poor plotting is that to wrap up an episode? I used to roll my eyes at the Elvis impersonating aliens, but I can see it as aliens who are picking up radio and television signals from thirty years before and their way of fitting in amongst the populace from what they know and its funny to me as an adult. The second lazy plot device was the moth balls having a magic property in Michelangelo's Birthday and Splinter said he simply believed it was possible so it was. Those two wrap ups annoy the adult me.

I honestly thought the episode was great right up until the ending, mostly because of how Deus Ex Machina-ey it was. But I chalk up the aliens not caring about Splinter still being trapped due to them either thinking he was a limbo local, never seeing him, or just don't think it's their problem.

[CyberCubed]

The worst eps in the original toon, besides the European Vacation eps, is the one Mikey turns human, "The Turtle Terminator" which had a robot Irma and Raph's alternate voice, Michaelangelo toys around (just a dull episode), Donatello's Badd Time with the hillbillies who steal the Turtle Van, and some of the mad scientist episodes...even though those aren't all that bad.

Ninja Sword of Nowhere was fantastic, luckily Raph's alternate voice doesn't get many lines in that ep.

[MikeandRaph87]

I don't think the alien antique dealers were neccessary at all. Instead Shredder could have been tricked into opening a riff so they could retrieve Splinter then the sword could have been melted by a blaster.

I agree about Donatello's Badd Time. There is also Funny, They Shrunk Michaelangelo. There is Ring of Fire and Polly Wanna Pizza as well. I like Split Second and Carter, The Enforcer, but the other six episodes not so much.

[TurtleGuy]

I don't think the alien antique dealers were neccessary at all. Instead Shredder could have been tricked into opening a riff so they could retrieve Splinter then the sword could have been melted by a blaster.

Heck, they could've just thrown the sword itself into limbo.

[CyberCubed]

Polly Wanna Pizza isn't too bad. I liked it when the parrots got switched and its a harmless gangster episode.

[Jephael]

Looking back the only things I find cheesy are the names they give random badguys, like Mugsy McGuffin. Come on, they could've tried being a little more original than that.

[Galactus]

I'm starting to think I'm the only one on this forum who still likes this show unironically(and a little ironically)...

To me it's just a fun little show.

Honestly compared to what I may come off as I actually still like the show.

I feel like the first five episodes are about as good as Saturday morning cartoons got in the 80s and despite the drop in quality and being all round more formulaic season 2 is still well made.

The third season is perhaps one of the most interesting eras of a long running tv shows ever made in that it's so inconsistent with episodes with the same tone as the first season and others that are full on comedic and out there like Cowabunga Shredhead and everything in between and yet somehow it still worked. I even appreciate the really lightweight Seasons 4 and 5 in the same way I appreciate silver age DC comics. I'd even go as far as to say that the '87 series is one of the few shows that "jumped the shark" and then jumped back with Season 6.

Like I said I don't believe the Fred Wolf show is to blame for TMNT not being taken with the degree of seriousness as it should be (either as franchise or a story) as plenty of great comic properties have had campy shows and yet it's never held them back.

It's the attitude by a large section that this is the only way to approach the property even though many of the hallmarks that TMNT is known for and seen as intrinsic to the property like family theme or Raphael being a loner and so on not only didn't originate from that show but didn't even feature in the show. Heck even the popularity of Casey Jones is not from the show, no one who is excited about the character thinks of the perma-masked guy but Elias Koteas faithful version.

That's the problem not the show itself.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

In terms of characters/story, its basically slapstick and villain of the week.

Uh....so is the Fred Wolf cartoon.

Honestly compared to what I may come off as I actually still like the show.

I feel like the first five episodes are about as good as Saturday morning cartoons got in the 80s and despite the drop in quality and being all round more formulaic season 2 is still well made.

The third season is perhaps one of the most interesting eras of a long running tv shows ever made in that it's so inconsistent with episodes with the same tone as the first season and others that are full on comedic and out there like Cowabunga Shredhead and everything in between and yet somehow it still worked. I even appreciate the really lightweight Seasons 4 and 5 in the same way I appreciate silver age DC comics. I'd even go as far as to say that the '87 series is one of the few shows that "jumped the shark" and then jumped back with Season 6.

Like I said I don't believe the Fred Wolf show is to blame for TMNT not being taken with the degree of seriousness as it should be (either as franchise or a story) as plenty of great comic properties have had campy shows and yet it's never held them back.

It's the attitude by a large section that this is the only way to approach the property even though many of the hallmarks that TMNT is known for and seen as intrinsic to the property like family theme or Raphael being a loner and so on not only didn't originate from that show but didn't even feature in the show. Heck even the popularity of Casey Jones is not from the show, no one who is excited about the character thinks of the perma-masked guy but Elias Koteas faithful version.

That's the problem not the show itself.

I could agree with this.

[TurtleGuy]

I will say that one thing that the Fred Wolf cartoon DOES get unfairly blamed for and that's it's somehow this show's fault that the 4kids series isn't on DVD in complete seasons/series form. That's all on Nickelodeon.

[CyberCubed]

I think its time for this thread to be locked.

[Xav]

I would like to see some of the OT characters like Big Louie, Chronos, Krakus, Colonel Knight, etc. been used again..Well Colonel Knight recently showed up in the IDW comics.

[MikeandRaph87]

I think its time for this thread to be locked.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsUP00eK4Ul9Jt3J3d9avBlafPvVf4P kPyr0B6BIn95Qh2_REwEw

[neatoman]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQsUP00eK4Ul9Jt3J3d9avBlafPvVf4P kPyr0B6BIn95Qh2_REwEw

It doesn't need to get locked at all, it's a fair topic and isn't a copy of another active thread. From what I can tell, Cubed is just a little uncomfortable with the topic.

[DarkLightDragon]

It doesn't need to get locked at all, it's a fair topic and isn't a copy of another active thread. From what I can tell, Cubed is just a little uncomfortable with the topic.

Nah, he can't take actual criticism of stuff he likes.

[neatoman]

Nah, he can't take actual criticism of stuff he likes.

That's kinda what I meant.

[DarkLightDragon]

That's kinda what I meant.

Ah, gotcha. Pardon any unintentional patronizing on my part then.

[pferreira]

For some people they can't go back and enjoy shows like Ninja Turtles, Real Ghostbusters, He-Man, Thundercats, etc. It just depends on the person. I still find the Fred Wolf cartoon enjoyable, fun, imaginative and humorous. Shock horror I do believe the Fred Wolf cartoon is still great. ;)

[cammy85]

Coincidentally, I'm back on a He-man kick right now, having blown through the Top 10 and watching the movie last night.

But yes, each season has its own positives and negatives. I do want to break out my sets but have a hard time deciding what episode/season to watch.

Seasons 1, 7, 8 and 10 are all great to me and once you watch one, you might as well just watch the whole thing. The rest are all over the map in tone and it all depends on your mood at the time. My problem is i can't decide right there and then what to watch so I don't bother. Season 3 is classic but all over the map, Season 4 is CBS cartoon goofy then amped up in other seasons. Too many generic villains. :s Like I said, all depends on your mood.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I will say that one thing that the Fred Wolf cartoon DOES get unfairly blamed for and that's it's somehow this show's fault that the 4kids series isn't on DVD in complete seasons/series form.

Why would they say so? The 1987 cartoon was rleased to DVD between April 2004-November 2012 which is both before and after the mid-October 2009 Nickelodeon purchase of TMNT. It's true Nickelodeon has the final decisions.

[CyberCubed]

The difference is Nick owns the 2k3 series, but the original cartoon is still owned by Lionsgate.

So Nick has no control over how the original cartoon comes to DVD, however they ARE in control of the 2k3 series and even then they can't release proper DVDs.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The difference is Nick owns the 2k3 series, but the original cartoon is still owned by Lionsgate.

So Nick has no control over how the original cartoon comes to DVD, however they ARE in control of the 2k3 series and even then they can't release proper DVDs.

OK, but I still can't think how that should affect Nickelodeon not releasing the 2003 cartoon to DVD.

[Powder]

It doesn't. 4kids fanboys just like to get upset about made-up stuff.

[ABrown]

Coincidentally, I'm back on a He-man kick right now, having blown through the Top 10

If any show got their dvd releases properly executed, it's the original He-Man cartoon. The top 10 dvd set was outstanding, and it's what I'm far more likely to rewatch than the entire series again. That show just doesn't stand the test of time very well, not anywhere near as well as the original TMNT series does. I'll absolutely rewatch the best of set. However, if I'm going to rewatch a He-Man series in its entirety it will be the Mike Young Productions 2002 series.

and watching the movie last night.


Are you talking about the Dolph Lundgren movie? I picked up the dvd years ago cause i found it for like $5. But if I'm looking for a He-Man fix, it's not very likely that I'm going to throw that in.

[cammy85]

I agree!!! And in the spirit of this thread, the first season of the original MOTU cartoon is mostly worth watching while the second is hit and miss, especially towards the end. It all depends on the tone you feel like watching. TMNT and He-man both have their serious and silly sides. I only mentioned the movie because I just got that nostalgic and the fact that Dolph Lundgren is going to be the lead in the new Kindergarten Cop movie.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Isn't the 1983 Heman cartoon without any episode order?

[cammy85]

Originally, yup!! They were all over the damned place. The DVDs have them in story order. Ex. originally, Modulok appeared in an episode where everybody knew him then his second appearance had his origin.

[Yoshimickster]

I like it for what it is, a fun silly cartoon about mutant ninja turtles. And sure MOST of the time Shredder is a moron, but his ninja skills stay consistent through-out enough for him to be a threat.

Though I will admit the "Vacation in Europe" season kind-of insulted my intelligence. You mean to tell me the Foot clan can teleport ANYWHERE on Earth, and only reason they fail is because they want EVERY plan they make to happen when they get their revenge on the turtles? I mean COME ON-on the one hand, it coincides with the revenge theme of ninja turtles, how it can make someone obsessed beyond ALL logical recourse, and ultimately bring their down-fall. But...THEY COULD STILL WAIT-get some materials in New York while the Turtles vacation. BUT-said season still made me laugh so whatevs.

I do have criticisms beyond that though, the biggest being that they introduced a THOUSAND great characters but only developed a sparse few. The prime offender: Metalhead. Anyone who remebers this name, most likely remembers him from one of the most ICONIC boss fights in TMNT history, against the mechanical Turtle doppelganer:METALHEAD! He had stretchy arms, lasers, he was a freaking robot turtle, just cool. And he even appeared in the show, with the combined personalities and talents of all the turtles, allowing him to predict their moves. During the ep, they reprogram them to their side to fight the foot, and after that they reprogram him again...to be their maid. OKAY a little lame, but maybe his second appearance would be better? NOT by a long shot, Donnie tries to reprogram him to be a vacuum cleaner, he BREAKS and is never seen nor heard from again. What.The.SHELL?! They had a robot best friend with the combined fighting abilities of the turtles and Shredder, and the combined genius of Donotello and Krang, and you make him a VACUUM CLEANER?!

This is a show that ultimately averages out to "okay" status, but a different kind of okay because you know if they just tweaked it a TAD it could be great. Maybe Playmates shouldn't have made so many toys for characters that wouldn't appear in show, FORCING the writers to plug them in, which I'm pretty sure the writers HATED doing. I don't think its a coincidence why several toy adaptations were only in one episode(Flush-o-matic anyone?) But hey, that's why we got the 2K12 series, sure it ain't perfect, but its a MARKED improvement.

[pferreira]

Maybe Playmates shouldn't have made so many toys for characters that wouldn't appear in show, FORCING the writers to plug them in, which I'm pretty sure the writers HATED doing. I don't think its a coincidence why several toy adaptations were only in one episode(Flush-o-matic anyone?) But hey, that's why we got the 2K12 series, sure it ain't perfect, but its a MARKED improvement.There's an episode where the writers were forced to include a device that flips trash and they made fun of it by having it fail in the episode.

[Konchadunga]

I'll be honest, while I think Fred Wolf's detractors have passed up its nostalgic purists in how annoying they are, it's hard to argue that the expectations it's placed on the brand aren't a frequent burden.

The thing that needs to be acknowledged is that the Fred Wolf show was made in less-than-ideal circumstances. The big problems with it are all neatly summed up as "It took an uncompromising brand and made it a compromising brand". Eastman and Laird conceived their creation as a creator-owned, creator-driven alternative to DC and Marvel's takes on the genre; they weren't even anticipating that their idea would be incredibly lucrative. That it somehow was caused them to rush out the door with the authorization of an animated adaptation at a time and for an audience that weren't really ready for an animated adaptation. Plenty of things had to be censored; especially given it was an era of extensive moral pandering. I'm convinced it was impossible to adapt Mirage faithfully in a 1980s TV show; in 2003 things were looser but still not there, and on those grounds, I at least give the Fred Wolf crew a lot of credit for trying to be their own thing with its own brand of entertainment. I agree with Andrew NDB's summation on that podcast; the 2003 cartoon may be objectively a lot better than the 1980s one, but if you have access to the Mirage series, it actually feels more bastardized than Fred Wolf, since you know exactly where something was removed and it never feels whole. Then there's the later seasons when 2000s show, too, abandoned its Mirage roots and got pretty stupid, and that gave me an all new appreciation for the Fred Wolf show, since at least it acknowledged its own stupidity.

So no; I don't "blame" the Fred Wolf show, because it seems unfair to blame a show or its creators for failing to do a good job adapting something at a time when circumstances they couldn't control wouldn't allow it. It's the people existing since then, who try to play to Fred Wolf nostalgia, without a good consideration of the depth of the situation, that tend to cause problems. It's irritating to see not just parodies, but also the original movies and the infamous "Coming Out of Their Shells Tour" doing the "Every Turtle is Mikey" thing and inundating people with surfer lingo and pizza references, and then it's also irritating to condense all of the Fred Wolf goofiness into Mikey, which really plagued the 2003 show. What casual observers looking back don't seem to get is that even the fans of the Fred Wolf series weren't there only for the surfer-talk and pizza, and when it comes to other incarnations, becoming fixated on such things just gets more troublesome.

Then there's the alternate scenario of dead-seriousness, wherein Fred Wolf icons get adapted in a way that misses the point of why people liked them. It was discussed in past pages whether writers can adapt Krang in a way that's more serious than in Fred Wolf, but for me the better question is, should they do it? My answer is no. I'd say the choice is lose-lose; many people who like Fred Wolf will be disappointed Krang isn't funny anymore, and while the people who dislike Fred Wolf may tolerate him when he's devoid of humor, he's hardly the villain they'd prefer to be in his place. They could just use the Triceratons for the "imperialistic alien warlord" thing if they want it to be dead-serious, or even a new alien they created. I've already talked about how thoroughly unworkable the Neutrinos are when written as serious characters, so I won't reiterate here.

[Powder]

Then there's the alternate scenario of dead-seriousness, wherein Fred Wolf icons get adapted in a way that misses the point of why people liked them. It was discussed in past pages whether writers can adapt Krang in a way that's more serious than in Fred Wolf, but for me the better question is, should they do it? My answer is no. I'd say the choice is lose-lose; many people who like Fred Wolf will be disappointed Krang isn't funny anymore, and while the people who dislike Fred Wolf may tolerate him when he's devoid of humor, he's hardly the villain they'd prefer to be in his place. They could just use the Triceratons for the "imperialistic alien warlord" thing if they want it to be dead-serious, or even a new alien they created. I've already talked about how thoroughly unworkable the Neutrinos are when written as serious characters, so I won't reiterate here.

Yeah, this stuff really shivers me timbers, too.

[cryan]

Coincidentally, I'm back on a He-man kick right now, having blown through the Top 10 and watching the movie last night.

But yes, each season has its own positives and negatives. I do want to break out my sets but have a hard time deciding what episode/season to watch.

Seasons 1, 7, 8 and 10 are all great to me and once you watch one, you might as well just watch the whole thing. The rest are all over the map in tone and it all depends on your mood at the time. My problem is i can't decide right there and then what to watch so I don't bother. Season 3 is classic but all over the map, Season 4 is CBS cartoon goofy then amped up in other seasons. Too many generic villains. :s Like I said, all depends on your mood.

In all fairness CBS did allow a nude lizard chick in the cartoon. The series did what it was intended to entertain. Goofy at times sure but fun at the same time.

[plastroncafe]

She wasn't nude.
Mona Lisa had a bandanna.

[TigerClaw]

She wasn't nude.
Mona Lisa had a bandanna.
not a bandanna, but a scarf.

http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/2c6b90cb6ed0a3f22a251e31d143f7431349917766_full.jp g

[CyberCubed]

Ok, can we lock this thread now? Please?

[plastroncafe]

not a bandanna, but a scarf.

http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/2c6b90cb6ed0a3f22a251e31d143f7431349917766_full.jp g

That's totally a bandanna. She's just wearing it around her neck, instead of her head. Plus, she's wearing a belt. So totally not naked.

Or at least no more naked than the turtles.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

When you're a mutant reptile, a bandanna and a belt are all you need.

[Wildcat]

Well the OT is the most prominent version that people associate the turtles with but I don't think it should be blamed for not evolving into a more serious franchise.

I think those who believe that are most likely those who grew up with it and probably expected it to catch up by now.

Look at Batman. That eventually turned non-cheesy or whatever you wanna call it. Tmnt is significantly younger than Batman but it doesn't help that Nick owns it now. So we'll just have to wait and see what it's like in the future.

The Nick cartoon is good though and the current movies will eventually stop. I don't really see it having multiple sequels. It really depends on what Nick does and how much liberty they allow on it.

[ssjup81]

Ok, can we lock this thread now? Please?Why? There's nothing wrong with it, and if there is an actual rule being broken or some issue, I'm sure someone would just report it and inform the mods. If the mods are leaving the thread open, then you're just overreacting to nothing.

[cryan]

Yeah, I think we already established that the FW series for good or bad had an influence. does it give a bad wrap to some yes to others its something to enjoy. Different strokes for different folks.

[cryan]

That's totally a bandanna. She's just wearing it around her neck, instead of her head. Plus, she's wearing a belt. So totally not naked.

Or at least no more naked than the turtles.

I am sorry I even brought it up. :lol:

[CyberCubed]

Why? There's nothing wrong with it, and if there is an actual rule being broken or some issue, I'm sure someone would just report it and inform the mods. If the mods are leaving the thread open, then you're just overreacting to nothing.

Because the thread has run its course and should be locked. If it was up to me I'd probably lock a good 40% of all the total threads on this forum.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The worst eps in the original toon, besides the European Vacation eps, is the one Mikey turns human, "The Turtle Terminator" which had a robot Irma and Raph's alternate voice, Michaelangelo toys around (just a dull episode), Donatello's Badd Time with the hillbillies who steal the Turtle Van, and some of the mad scientist episodes...even though those aren't all that bad.

Ninja Sword of Nowhere was fantastic, luckily Raph's alternate voice doesn't get many lines in that ep.


Okay, I KNOW the "human Mikey" ep (The Gang's All Here) gets a bad rap, but what's so bad about it? It's actually one of my favorites, as it ha an interesting story that WASN'T just "bad guy of the week" or cheesy plot done for the nth time, it had good character development for him, as well as the others- we see their secret dreams (during the "what we'd do if we were 'normal'" conversation in Don's lab after discovering what the cookies do), and it ever brought in some backstory and development for Rocksteady and Bebop! Overall, as goofy as the premise was, it was a GOOD story with solid plot and didn't have a ridiculous deus ex ending- they even had to go out and HUNT for Mikey, and mistook someone else for him before they actually found him, which was almost too late!


I don't think the alien antique dealers were neccessary at all. Instead Shredder could have been tricked into opening a riff so they could retrieve Splinter then the sword could have been melted by a blaster.

I agree about Donatello's Badd Time. There is also Funny, They Shrunk Michaelangelo. There is Ring of Fire and Polly Wanna Pizza as well. I like Split Second and Carter, The Enforcer, but the other six episodes not so much.


Donatello's Badd Time was actually a very humorous episode, that really brought out his hubris and pride in a way that was negative, while still being sympathetic about it. This is one of my favorite Donnie eps, for the simple reason that he could be duped by a bunch of hillbillies, and too embarrassed to admit it to the others. It's a good character story, and the scenes where he is chasing them down in the supped-up truck are very Spy Hunter-esque. I still enjoy that one! Was it gimmicky and silly? Sure, but it still told a decent story and had great character development.


Because the thread has run its course and should be locked. If it was up to me I'd probably lock a good 40% of all the total threads on this forum.

Cubed, that's really NOT how a forum works, nor is it what Mods are for. I should know- I've been on the other side of that "screen". Threads don't get locked just because someone thinks they've become pointless or boring- there must be a clear violation or other "good" reason for it. Mods don't just close them because someone feels the thread is past it's prime.

[CyberCubed]

Cubed, that's really NOT how a forum works, nor is it what Mods are for. I should know- I've been on the other side of that "screen". Threads don't get locked just because someone thinks they've become pointless or boring- there must be a clear violation or other "good" reason for it. Mods don't just close them because someone feels the thread is past it's prime.

I've been on other forums where mods locked threads that went on way too long and got off topic, or threads that were made with the intent of bashing something and to cause arguments. Also some mods just lock threads for the hell of it, and they're known as, "Nazi mods" on other forums.

[shuriken]

^^I disagree Cubed but whatevs.
No Fred Wolfe isn't unfairly blamed at all. The comics they are based on a ridiculously different from the 87 toon. And because of that many people have not and wont take them seriously. Kinda like Batman 66 and the original Batman comics. It is what it is.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

While there certainly are Mods on various forums who abuse the power, that's not the purpose of them. Again, unless there is a violation of some sort or the thread is REALLY off topic or unfairly critical or inflamatory, a RESPONSIBLE Mod won't close one "just because". Nazi Mods are called that for good reason- they are an example of BAD Mod behavior.