Man of Steel 2

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

This will make Leo656 very happy and Commenter 42 very unhappy. There will be fist pumps and cries of joy from one man, and howls of outrage and gnashing of teeth from the other.

http://batman-news.com/2016/08/08/warner-bros-superman-man-of-steel-2/

Me? Give me a Lex Luthor that isn't Jesse Eisenberg (or at least drastically change that twitchy twerp's performance) and more Cavill and Adams, and I'll be happy.

If WB has already jumped the gun and done Doomsday, what do they follow up with? The Superman Clone Saga (sorry, I don't remember the story arc's actual title)? Parasite? Bring in a better Supergirl (move over, Melissa)? Mongol? Metallo?

Personally, I'm betting the Superman clones... Superboy/girl, Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, Steel. I guess we'll have to see how Justice League handles bringing him back.

[CyberCubed]

I find it bizarre after all this time Brainiac has never been done in live-action. He's one of the most important villains.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I find it bizarre after all this time Brainiac has never been done in live-action. He's one of the most important villains.

I KNEW I WAS FORGETTING ONE OF HIS ENEMIES!

Yup, the movie will be Brainiac. No doubt about it.

[Electric]

DC is not afraid :)

[Commenter 42]

Actually this makes me happy. Snyder's barely treading water, and they just tosd him a cement block.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Actually this makes me happy. Snyder's barely treading water, and they just tosd him a cement block.

I'm pretty sure, agree or disagree, that Snyder won't be involved. At best, a minimalized presence.

WB wants/needs Superman to make bank, so they're going to pull out all the stops.

[ToTheNines]

Lol, can we not talk about Leo?

[Commenter 42]

If they could start with putting Superman in the film, that would work.
They would need to start from scratch. Geoff Johns is an ass hat though.

There's no hope. #SuprmanDiedwithReeve.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

If they could start with putting Superman in the film, that would work.
They would need to start from scratch. Geoff Johns is an ass hat though.

There's no hope. #SuprmanDiedwithReeve.

Honest question coming up, wanting to know your POV better.

You don't like the Man of Steel movie. How does that death of Zod play into your opinion?

If you disapprove, how then do you feel about Reeves' Superman killing Zod?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

If they could start with putting Superman in the film, that would work.
They would need to start from scratch. Geoff Johns is an ass hat though.

There's no hope. #SuprmanDiedwithReeve.

I loved everything about Reeve. How his superman was optimistic, hopeful and kind, everything superman was supposed to be. I don't hate man of steel absolutely, but I think Reeve was the absolute best and his movie is my favourite superhero movie of all time. I'd take his superman over the brooding (coughbatmancough) Superman in man of steel anyday.

Heck, I'm listening to his theme as I work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RotVp2ezfs

[ZariusTwo]

If you disapprove, how then do you feel about Reeves' Superman killing Zod?

There's a deleted scene in Donner's Superman II which showed Zod and company survived.

Was never used, but it's available on the DVDs

[plastroncafe]

"Have fun storming the castle boys!"
"Do you think it'll work?"
"It would take a miracle."

[Commenter 42]

Honest question coming up, wanting to know your POV better.

You don't like the Man of Steel movie. How does that death of Zod play into your opinion?

If you disapprove, how then do you feel about Reeves' Superman killing Zod?

It's not the killing of Zod. It's not Superman killing, I'm not that guy - I don't think he really needed to, but it didn't break the movie for me. That happened about 5 minutes in. As soon as I saw etch-a-sketch land, I knew it was going to be a tough watch. :lol:

My issue is the view of the character as outcast, moody, awkward, brooding...
'78 took the high road all the time. He was a better person. He put others first.

Snyders Superman isn't super. Just a guy, and not a likable one. Lot's of characters you can do that with, not Supes.

That's just a taste of my gripes. If anything, Snyder made a movie about Bizarro.

[TigerClaw]

This will make Leo656 very happy and Commenter 42 very unhappy. There will be fist pumps and cries of joy from one man, and howls of outrage and gnashing of teeth from the other.

http://batman-news.com/2016/08/08/warner-bros-superman-man-of-steel-2/

Me? Give me a Lex Luthor that isn't Jesse Eisenberg (or at least drastically change that twitchy twerp's performance) and more Cavill and Adams, and I'll be happy.

If WB has already jumped the gun and done Doomsday, what do they follow up with? The Superman Clone Saga (sorry, I don't remember the story arc's actual title)? Parasite? Bring in a better Supergirl (move over, Melissa)? Mongol? Metallo?

Personally, I'm betting the Superman clones... Superboy/girl, Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, Steel. I guess we'll have to see how Justice League handles bringing him back.
I hope Man of Steel 2 will have Supergirl in it, the prequel comic told Kara's origin, she was the one who stepped out of that cryochamber, when Superman went into the ship and for a brief moment, sees one that was opened.

[AT-Man]

Great, now y'all just spoiled that Superman will get revived in DCEU!

[Andrew NDB]

I find it bizarre after all this time Brainiac has never been done in live-action. He's one of the most important villains.

Yep. It's pretty pathetic, even factoring in the Reeve movies... his villains were Lex, then Zod, then Lex again in Returns, then Zod again in Man of Steel, and Lex again in BvS coupled with Zod's body again. How sad is that? Can we get new villains, please?

Mongul and Warworld would rock, though it might be thematically too similar to what they're probably planning with Darkseid and Apokalips. Brainiac is a no-brainer. I thought Man of Steel was foreshadowing him with the Codex stuff but they pissed it off to do a Dark Knight Returns/Death of Superman jambalaya in DC Cinematic Universe movie #2.

[turtlefanforever]

the first movie was DREADFUL!!! Wow, i don't intend on seeing this but if Cyborg Superman was the villain i'd consider it.

[MikeandRaph87]

This will make Leo656 very happy and Commenter 42 very unhappy. There will be fist pumps and cries of joy from one man, and howls of outrage and gnashing of teeth from the other.

http://batman-news.com/2016/08/08/warner-bros-superman-man-of-steel-2/

Me? Give me a Lex Luthor that isn't Jesse Eisenberg (or at least drastically change that twitchy twerp's performance) and more Cavill and Adams, and I'll be happy.

If WB has already jumped the gun and done Doomsday, what do they follow up with? The Superman Clone Saga (sorry, I don't remember the story arc's actual title)? Parasite? Bring in a better Supergirl (move over, Melissa)? Mongol? Metallo?

Personally, I'm betting the Superman clones... Superboy/girl, Cyborg Superman, Eradicator, Steel. I guess we'll have to see how Justice League handles bringing him back.

I will assume Darkseid is reserved for Justice League. What about Brainiac? He could reverse the stance the public took as a result of Zod. During the chaos Lex could be creating another monster,but this time a Superman he can control which will result in Bizarro and if the plot merits it Superboy can enter as the perfected clone while Bizarro could be from dated dna and Superboy a touch of Luthor dna to humanize the Kryptonian clone.

[ToTheNines]

Yep. It's pretty pathetic, even factoring in the Reeve movies... his villains were Lex, then Zod, then Lex again in Returns, then Zod again in Man of Steel, and Lex again in BvS coupled with Zod's body again. How sad is that? Can we get new villains, please?

Mongul and Warworld would rock, though it might be thematically too similar to what they're probably planning with Darkseid and Apokalips. Brainiac is a no-brainer. I thought Man of Steel was foreshadowing him with the Codex stuff but they pissed it off to do a Dark Knight Returns/Death of Superman jambalaya in DC Cinematic Universe movie #2.

They've bungled everything. Half of his supporting cast is already dead. Snyder will surely kill some more in JL.

[Commenter 42]

You know who might make a good Superman film? Cameron.

Hear me out.

Think about the sci-fi of Superman. It's the part they rarely explore. Think about the menagerie of aliens. Would be interesting. Superman off-world.

I'd say Abrams, given what he's done for Star wars and Star Trek, but he already had a shot, and his ideas were a little meh.
Maybe he's grown.

[Andrew NDB]

Great, now y'all just spoiled that Superman will get revived in DCEU!

So dumb. They actually go to the trouble of doing the Death of Superman in DC Cinematic Universe Movie #2, and they can't even make it to the end of the movie without spoiling his resurrection.

[Andrew NDB]

I'd say Abrams, given what he's done for Star wars and Star Trek

What, you mean this?

http://bestanimations.com/Military/Explosions/atomic-mushroom-cloud-explosion-2-2.gif

The best thing he did for Star Trek was having mostly nothing to do with the latest one. And TFA was pretty much just a study in how to "lift" a movie with only a slight coating of anything original.

[Netkeeper]

You know who might make a good Superman film? Cameron.

Hear me out.

Think about the sci-fi of Superman. It's the part they rarely explore. Think about the menagerie of aliens. Would be interesting. Superman off-world.

I'd say Abrams, given what he's done for Star wars and Star Trek, but he already had a shot, and his ideas were a little meh.
Maybe he's grown.
I don't like Superman [which probably makes my liking of Man of Steel incredibly appropriate because it was his personality that I liked] but I would be all over this.

[Commenter 42]

What, you mean this?

http://bestanimations.com/Military/Explosions/atomic-mushroom-cloud-explosion-2-2.gif

The best thing he did for Star Trek was have mostly nothing to do with the latest one. And TFA was pretty much just a study in how to "lift" a movie with only a slight coating of anything original.

Both massive successes.

I don't care that he effectively lifted TFA. It makes the most sense. Life is circular, SW is a circular story. The next gen should be repeating the path of the last, with a twist. The film was pretty great. Lucas tried to give fans something completely different with the prequels, and the results were a disaster.

for Star Trek, he did the same. Most people can't endure the original Trek series...it's tedious. TNG is easier to fun, Enterprise is impossible.

He opened it up, and cast well. He has a knack for getting the right people on board. 2009 was also the first time I felt VFX offered a space that reflected the cool Sci-fi of the 50's and 60's... it looked like it had been ripped from the mind of Asimov or Phillip K. Dick.
Production design is very important to me though... often more than the director, and sometimes even the story.

I don't like Superman [which probably makes my liking of Man of Steel incredibly appropriate because it was his personality that I liked] but I would be all over this.

Have you ever watched Superman the movie, or Superman 2?

[NinjaPug]

This version has already been ruined so much that it would take a great writer/director for me to get excited about this. Please don't continue trying to deconstruct Superman. Also, please don't kill main characters by shooting them in the head in a throwaway scene because you think it's "fun". Keep The ****** version of Lex away from this too.

[Netkeeper]

Have you ever watched Superman the movie, or Superman 2?
I'm having trouble remembering them. If I've watched them, it was when I was way younger. I remember Superman Returns, though, and I remembered not liking it.

[Commenter 42]

I'm having trouble remembering them. If I've watched them, it was when I was way younger. I remember Superman Returns, though, and I remembered not liking it.

Superman Returns was terrible, terrible and more terrible. It was horrible. bland. Yuck.

If you get around to it, try Superman the movie.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Superman Returns was terrible, terrible and more terrible. It was horrible. bland. Yuck.

If you get around to it, try Superman the movie.

I go by C42s word. Superman 1978 is my favourite superhero film of all time and of my favourite films in general.

[Spike Spiegel]

I like MOS and BVS as well as the Donner movies, but Returns is the worst to me. Superman '78 is a little dated but still the best. Reeve's acting as both Superman and Kent is absolutely amazing. You really think it's a different person when he puts on the glasses.

I don't think Returns should be in the DVD/Blu ray sets with the older Reeve films...even Superman IV deserves better.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

If Synder is not involved with this then I have some hope for this. I was recently given a collection of Superman: The Man of Tomorrow comics and I have to say, these are a really enjoyable read. It makes me love Superman more than I already have. What happened DC? This was your golden boy up until the mid 2000s.:tcry:

Is there anybody on this forum that prefers Superman over Batman?

[ToTheNines]

Me. Batman undoubtedly has a better rogues gallery and some great allies too, but I much prefer Superman as a character and all of the mythology that comes with him.

[Netkeeper]

Superman Returns was terrible, terrible and more terrible. It was horrible. bland. Yuck.

If you get around to it, try Superman the movie.
Yup, it was really bland and I think I even fell asleep the first time.

I'll give Superman the movie a shot, though. My dad really enjoys it so next time he's complaining about there not being anything on TV again, hopefully I'll remember this and bring it up.

[Andrew NDB]

Superman 1 and 2 were fine for their time, but no, they haven't held up well at all. Christopher Reeve's performance is always stellar... but just about everything else is pretty dodgy and camp after the movie leaves Smallville. In recent years I've tried to have several people who have never seen any of the Reeve Superman movies sit down and watch them with me (they kind of are "must see" movies in terms of the historical significance of them) and it's always a struggle.

[Spike Spiegel]

With the right plot and writer, I think Superman is the best character in mainstream comics.

One of the things I liked about MOS was being able to see him as that kind hearted, relatable Kansas kid. Like that scene when
he goes to visit Martha and throws back a beer. Sure, he has godlike powers and stuff, but at the same time there is a recognizable emotional core to him.

As it says in the John Byrne comics from the 80s, being from Krypton gives him his powers, but the Earth and her people are what make him human.

[Commenter 42]

Yup, it was really bland and I think I even fell asleep the first time.

I'll give Superman the movie a shot, though. My dad really enjoys it so next time he's complaining about there not being anything on TV again, hopefully I'll remember this and bring it up.

It's a feel good film. It DOES hold up, unless you want to nitpick effects, but that would be like chastising the work of Ray Harryhausen, despite being a pioneer.

If you want a punchy punch though, this ain't it.

With the right plot and writer, I think Superman is the best character in mainstream comics.


Superman done right, is the best, no contest.
He's been gone for a long time.

[Netkeeper]

Superman 1 and 2 were fine for their time, but no, they haven't held up well at all. Christopher Reeve's performance is always stellar... but just about everything else is pretty dodgy and camp after the movie leaves Smallville. In recent years I've tried to have several people who have never seen any of the Reeve Superman movies sit down and watch them with me (they kind of are "must see" movies in terms of the historical significance of them) and it's always a struggle.
I'm not too concerned with that, honestly. My parents have recently taken to watching old Star Treks and I make it through those just fine. Apparently that's pretty difficult to do. :lol:

[Commenter 42]

I'm not too concerned with that, honestly. My parents have recently taken to watching old Star Treks and I make it through those just fine. Apparently that's pretty difficult to do. :lol:

You should be fine then. :lol::lol::lol:

Reeve just is Superman. That's the problem, really. Cavill doesn't Superman well, at all. You need an actor that can pull it off; find that and the rest will almost take care of itself.

[Netkeeper]

Oh, that does remind me of my shallow-ness showing whenever I don't want it to and I'll admit I've always found Superman ugly until Man of Steel. whoops please don't put this one on my permanent record

[The Deadman]

Can we have this guy be the villain for the sequel if nobody wants Lex or Zod?

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/superman/images/1/14/250px-NuclearMan2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070424103849

[Andrew NDB]

Reeve just is Superman. That's the problem, really. Cavill doesn't Superman well, at all. You need an actor that can pull it off; find that and the rest will almost take care of itself.

Have to disagree with you, sir. Cavill Supermans just fine. The points where he's allowed to full-on be Superman, they work fantastically. Granted, he doesn't become a fully formed Superman until the end of Man of Steel... and then, granted again, until he remembers he already became Superman at the end of the last movie near the end of BvS again.

Imagine Cavill in just about any scene back in Superman: The Motionless Picture, and it'd work just fine. Possibly better, no disrespect to Reeve.

[Commenter 42]

Have to disagree with you, sir. Cavill Supermans just fine. The points where he's allowed to full-on be Superman, they work fantastically.

1. When is he full on being Superman?
2. What's your idea of a full on Superman?

He doesn't ever Superman. Not once.
He Batmans a bit, and says words. I don't believe a word he mumbles.
It all feels false and insincere.


Granted, he doesn't become a fully formed Superman until the end of Man of Steel... and then, granted again, until he remembers he already became Superman at the end of the last movie near the end of BvS again.


I hate the "hero needs to learn to be the title character routine. I can't stand it. 78 skipped it, covering it with some rando insane Brandoing.

Insane Brando > learning to hero. It was true in 76, and still true today.

What it means to be a Superman is in the doing. Superman is the greatest hero, not Peter Parker. His whole schtick is working to hide how F'ing amazing he is, not learn to be amazing. It's backwards, and essentially the problem.
Xmen need to learn how to fit in. Xmen are about figuring out how to control their powers. Superman is about restraint, and solving problems we can't, then solving problems his power can't. Snyder doesn't understand any of that.

Superman is the second most recognized character on Earth, after Jesus. I'd site the source, but I read that years ago, and I'm sure it's still true-ish.
We don't need to watch he learn his opowers - ther are 10 YEARS of Smallville if that's your bag.


Imagine Cavill in just about any scene back in Superman: The Motionless Picture, and it'd work just fine. Possibly better, no disrespect to Reeve.

Yeah, that's wrong. No disrespect to you, but, no. The guy is terrible.

Reeve wasn't exactly the greatest actor either, dude was wooden in every other role, ever. He sucks in everything else but, maybe Street Smart, but who the **** remembers that movie?

Reeve was unwatchable, in everything, except when he played Superman.

Cavill can't even do that.

I get you have a certain taste, you like stuff I think is terrible, so i get you're view point, I just don't see Superman as the 90's era emo angsty loser. Taht's not who he is to me. And I agree, '78 doesn't have a whole lot of action, but it flows, perfectly as a film. It tells an entire story, and for it's day, had some of the most innovative special effects of it's time.

MOS & BVS already look dated, and it's only been a few years. Despite all the "action", people were bored.

punchy punch is only exciting when it's real, or at least the stakes are high. Otherwise, it's total filler, and a total waste of screen time.

[Commenter 42]

Oh, that does remind me of my shallow-ness showing whenever I don't want it to and I'll admit I've always found Superman ugly until Man of Steel. whoops please don't put this one on my permanent record


You think Reeve is ugly, but Cavil is hot?
wait here:

(small images for your internet)

http://www.supermansupersite.com/george_reeves.jpg
G. Reeves

http://imstars.aufeminin.com/stars/fan/christopher-reeve/christopher-reeve-20060726-147692.jpg
C. Reeve

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/book-covers/sr-movieguide-pb.jpg
B. Routh

http://66.media.tumblr.com/15db8d2886208fd60516e260bb6a4ea3/tumblr_nw9z8juUCk1u6s820o1_400.jpg
D. Cain

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/03/03/17/31D1371900000578-0-image-a-14_1457024445464.jpg
H. Cavill



lol... If that's the only reason you like MOS... hahahahahhahahahahahahhaha

Totally get it, but man, Cavill reminds me of Nixon.

[Shark_Blade]

Cavill is the hottest Superman tbh. Never care about the other Supes and their films either.

[Commenter 42]

Cavill is the hottest Superman tbh. Never care about the other Supes and their films either.

Wait....Sharkie is gay?

Didn't see that coming. Sure Reeve is a little funny looking in some shots, but Cavill is short and stalky, balding, with a funny nose.

LARGE IMAGE WARNING!

http://henrycavill.org/images/Events/2016-02-11/Henry-Cavill-Org-BAFTA-Gala-001.jpg

now, picture him in 3 years...

Not very super. Adams already looks old for Lois. who will be 44 by the time MOS 2 comes out. Nothing against older women, but she already looks old for the 33 year old Cavill.

http://celebmafia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/amy-adams-vanity-fair-oscar-2016-party-in-beverly-hills-ca-1.jpg

Reboot, recast.

[Shark_Blade]

If a woman compliments another woman for being beautiful, it's fine.

But when a man does it some people automatically assumes it's gay? Lol get with the time already...

Even Henry Cavill compliments Ben Affleck for being hot in solo interviews.

[Commenter 42]

If a woman compliments another woman for being beautiful, it's fine.

But when a man does it some people automatically assumes it's gay? Lol get with the time already...

Even Henry Cavill compliments Ben Affleck for being hot in solo interviews.

Most men use the term Handsome, or attractive. You said "Hottest".
Straight men, even today, yeah we don't talk like that about other men.

I really don't care one way or the other. Actually, I do, i'm sure some version of the PC police will hop on here and berate me.

... nah, still don't care. It's fine if you think he's hot, but calling another man hot, will lead other straight men, and probably gay men, to think you are gay.

[Shark_Blade]

What's the difference between handsome and hot? Same thing tbh. Masculinity is so fragile among some straight people lol. Struggling to even compliment the same gender when it's so easy.

[Candy Kappa]

Cavill is a studmuffin.

[Commenter 42]

Cavill is a studmuffin.

lol. I don't see it. I just see a Nixon cartoon.
http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.179902.1339209122!/image/1123777893.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/1123777893.jpg



All I know is Sharkie is gay for him, and that makes my masculinity fragile, or some shite.

lol. Straight men calling each other Hot. Totally normal.

[ToTheNines]

Wait....Sharkie is gay?.

First and foremost, Sharkie is a troll. His sexuality is tertiary.

[Commenter 42]

First and foremost, Sharkie is a troll. His sexuality is tertiary.

What's secondary?

[Shark_Blade]

lol. I don't see it. I just see a Nixon cartoon.
[url]http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.179902.1339209122!/image/1123777893.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/1123777893.jpg[/url



All I know is Sharkie is gay for him, and that makes my masculinity fragile, or some shite.

lol. Straight men calling each other Hot. Totally normal.

Pfft see how the insecure "straight" blindly labelling people. I don't even fancy him nor like Superman much.

Perhaps Commenter is a closeted gay indeed. Lol

First and foremost, Sharkie is a troll. His sexuality is tertiary.

What's that TrollNines? You're a scum and your sexuality is doing your own mom? Gotcha.

Whatever rocks your boat. ;)

[ObiWanFan4life]

It's not the killing of Zod. It's not Superman killing, I'm not that guy - I don't think he really needed to, but it didn't break the movie for me. That happened about 5 minutes in. As soon as I saw etch-a-sketch land, I knew it was going to be a tough watch. :lol:

My issue is the view of the character as outcast, moody, awkward, brooding...
'78 took the high road all the time. He was a better person. He put others first.

Snyders Superman isn't super. Just a guy, and not a likable one. Lot's of characters you can do that with, not Supes.

That's just a taste of my gripes. If anything, Snyder made a movie about Bizarro.

I feel almost the same way.


That aside, I feel like they should get a new writer and director for this sequel. Man Of Steel and Batman V Superman have their fans, but his sensibilities are too niche for the majority of people (Fans and Non-Fans alike).

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Well this thread got really interesting really fast.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Well this thread got really interesting really fast.

You expected anything less from one of the most polarizing films in years?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You expected anything less from one of the most polarizing films in years?

Pffft. Not one of the most polarizing.

Batman V Superman surpassed it this year. Or how about The Interview? We had North Korea threatening terrorism over that cinematic gem.

"It's hilarious!"
"It's offensive!"
"We will dirty bomb your theaters for blaspheming our glorious leader."

THAT'S polarizing. :tlol:

[ObiWanFan4life]

Pffft. Not one of the most polarizing.

Batman V Superman surpassed it this year. Or how about The Interview? We had North Korea threatening terrorism over that cinematic gem.

"It's hilarious!"
"It's offensive!"
"We will dirty bomb your theaters for blaspheming our glorious leader."

THAT'S polarizing. :tlol:

Maybe I should have added "one of the most polarizing Superhero films in recent years". :lol:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Maybe I should have added "one of the most polarizing Superhero films in recent years". :lol:

THERE ya go. :tsmile:

EDITED: Except, thinking about it, it seems most CBMs are polarizing now. Everybody loves it or hates it.

Man of Steel, Batman V Superman, Avengers 2, Iron Man 3, X-Men Apocalypse, now Suicide Squad...

[ObiWanFan4life]

THERE ya go. :tsmile:

EDITED: Except, thinking about it, it seems most CBMs are polarizing now. Everybody loves it or hates it.

Man of Steel, Batman V Superman, Avengers 2, Iron Man 3, X-Men Apocalypse, now Suicide Squad...

Man Of Steel - Polarizing. Reception is 50/50 for the most part.

Batman V Superman - Mixed to Negative. The movie had it's hardcore fans, but most people were disappointed with/ or flat out hated the film.

Iron Man 3 - Polarizing, also like Man Of Steel.

Avengers 2 - I'd say the response was marginally positive for that one.

X-Men: Apocalypse - Also mixed.

Suicide Squad - Polarizing, but I've seen very few people who absolutely love it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Man Of Steel - Polarizing. Reception is 50/50 for the most part.

Batman V Superman - Mixed to Negative. The movie had it's hardcore fans, but most people were disappointed with/ or flat out hated the film.

Iron Man 3 - Polarizing, also like Man Of Steel.

Avengers 2 - I'd say the response was marginally positive for that one.

X-Men: Apocalypse - Also mixed.

Suicide Squad - Polarizing, but I've seen very few people who absolutely love it.

Well, I'd say "mixed to negative" or "mixed" is also polarizing. A milder polarizing, but the same.

The point I was realizing is that lately, these big blockbuster CBMs are becoming more and more divisive. As opposed to, say, 2008-2012, when everybody loved everything. Comparatively speaking.

Now that we have a glut of CBMs, we can pick and choose--and thus we become pickier and choosier. Also because there's a glut, standards raise and competition becomes more fierce.

Why go watch Thor 2 when I can watch Suicide Squad instead? Or why would you go watch Man of Steel 2 when you can watch Black Panther instead?

Soon, very soon, there will be a consolidation. Probably after Marvel Phase 3 completes and the first one or two Justice League movies hit the big screen.

Studios will focus on making fewer better movies that have a better success rate... it can't keep going like this. Marvel, at least, has definitely improved their game of late. WB/DC needs to find its footing pretty soon. And Fox... sigh.

[ObiWanFan4life]

Well, I'd say "mixed to negative" or "mixed" is also polarizing. A milder polarizing, but the same.

The point I was realizing is that lately, these big blockbuster CBMs are becoming more and more divisive. As opposed to, say, 2008-2012, when everybody loved everything. Comparatively speaking.

Now that we have a glut of CBMs, we can pick and choose--and thus we become pickier and choosier. Also because there's a glut, standards raise and competition becomes more fierce.

Why go watch Thor 2 when I can watch Suicide Squad instead? Or why would you go watch Man of Steel 2 when you can watch Black Panther instead?

Soon, very soon, there will be a consolidation. Probably after Marvel Phase 3 completes and the first one or two Justice League movies hit the big screen.

Studios will focus on making fewer better movies that have a better success rate... it can't keep going like this. Marvel, at least, has definitely improved their game of late. WB/DC needs to find its footing pretty soon. And Fox... sigh.


We, DC is 0/3 at this point, they either need to seriously rethink their approach, or just drop it all together.

[plastroncafe]

It's like DC is trying to do something new, but that new-ness is getting squashed by committee right before launch.

Every single one of their movies has been like this post Burton's Batman.
Nolan's Bat movies have their faults, but lack of voice and direction isn't one of them.

[ObiWanFan4life]

It's like DC is trying to do something new, but that new-ness is getting squashed by committee right before launch.

Every single one of their movies has been like this post Burton's Batman.
Nolan's Bat movies have their faults, but lack of voice and direction isn't one of them.

Just give it to Bruce Timm and Paul Dini, that would be a good start.

[ZariusTwo]

Just give it to Bruce Timm and Paul Dini, that would be a good start.

Live-Action Bats and Barbera bat-sex? No thanks:P

[plastroncafe]

Live-Action Bats and Barbera bat-sex? No thanks:P

Maybe Dini is what kept Timm from that sort of thing...

[ObiWanFan4life]

Live-Action Bats and Barbera bat-sex? No thanks:P

That was Brian Azzarello's demented brain child.

[ZariusTwo]

That was Brian Azzarello's demented brain child.

True, but Timm's always championed that pairing.

[ToTheNines]

Pfft see how the insecure "straight" blindly labelling people. I don't even fancy him nor like Superman much.

Perhaps Commenter is a closeted gay indeed. Lol



What's that TrollNines? You're a scum and your sexuality is doing your own mom? Gotcha.

Whatever rocks your boat. ;)

My mom's so handsome, though.

[plastroncafe]

My mom's so handsome, though.

I consider myself to be pretty damn handsome.
Especially when I break out the tux.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'd just like to point out that the colloquialism is "whatever floats your boat." The other one being "don't rock the boat."

Words! They matter!

[Commenter 42]

My mom's so handsome, though.

WIN! GANAR!

*confetti.*


I'd just like to point out that the colloquialism is "whatever floats your boat." The other one being "don't rock the boat."

Words! They matter!

You're so fragile! Cylon is a closeted logophile, I'll say.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You're so fragile! Cylon is a closeted logophile, I'll say.

I'm an author and a man of education. No closeted about it.

[Commenter 42]

I'm an author and a man of education. No closeted about it.

Fantastic.

Do you think Alan Ruck would work for Reed Richards? For me he feels right, and would be an interesting addition to the Ruffalo/RDJ Dynamic.

http://gatecast.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Alan+Ruck.jpg

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Fantastic.

Do you think Alan Ruck would work for Reed Richards? For me he feels right, and would be an interesting addition to the Ruffalo/RDJ Dynamic.

http://gatecast.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Alan+Ruck.jpg

Possibly. Haven't seen him in anything, but that bio pic on IMDB looks pretty spot on.

[Commenter 42]

Possibly. Haven't seen him in anything, but that bio pic on IMDB looks pretty spot on.

You've never watched Ferris Buller?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You've never watched Ferris Buller?

Nope.

10 characters.

[Spike Spiegel]

Fantastic.

Do you think Alan Ruck would work for Reed Richards? For me he feels right, and would be an interesting addition to the Ruffalo/RDJ Dynamic.

http://gatecast.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Alan+Ruck.jpg

I like it. Comic accurate casting for the FF would be very cool.

Imagine Sigourney Weaver as Agatha Harkness. James Earl Jones as Galactus' voice.

And, just for the hell of it, Gilbert Gottfried as the voice of HERBIE.

[Commenter 42]

I like it. Comic accurate casting for the FF would be very cool.

Imagine Sigourney Weaver as Agatha Harkness. James Earl Jones as Galactus' voice.

And, just for the hell of it, Gilbert Gottfried as the voice of HERBIE.

Right? lol...nice additions. Sarah Michelle Gellar as Sue Storm, and ... Chris Zylka...looks like a solid Johnny Storm.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Right? lol...nice additions. Sarah Michelle Gellar as Sue Storm, and ... Chris Zylka...looks like a solid Johnny Storm.

Wow. Good calls on both.

Still, Chris Evans was a great Johnny Storm. :tlol:

[plastroncafe]

He and Chiklis were the only solid portions of that movie.

[Commenter 42]

You need to check out a Ferris Buller. Ruck would be amazing as Reed.

Kinda like how Lori Petty kind of is Harley Quinn..

[Cure]

BuEller, man. Ferris Bueller. He's also in Speed.

And yeah, I never thought of him, but he would make a good Mr. Fantastic.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

So this is actually a go then? Haven't they learned their lesson yet? Superman is not the same as Batman, tonally or otherwise. Trying to make them both similar in character is to completely miss the dynamic between them. I agree with 42. And daaamn but Ruck WOULD make a good Reed! Also I fully agree that Evans and Chicklis were great as Johnny and Ben. Hmm Geller as Sue? I could dig it!

[Luigiperps]

They better bring Jimmy Olsen back.

[NinjaPug]

They better bring Jimmy Olsen back.

You didn't like Snyder blowing his brains out in a throwaway scene for fun?

Snyder - “We just did it as this little aside because we had been tracking where we thought the movies were gonna go, and we don’t have room for Jimmy Olsen in our big pantheon of characters, but we can have fun with him, right?”

[Splinter the boss]

wow! There is a sequel? I'm looking forward to it.

[ProactiveMan]

You didn't like Snyder blowing his brains out in a throwaway scene for fun?

Snyder - “We just did it as this little aside because we had been tracking where we thought the movies were gonna go, and we don’t have room for Jimmy Olsen in our big pantheon of characters, but we can have fun with him, right?”
Summary execution fits the tone of that character so well right?! :ohwell:
http://i.imgur.com/kQP4W81.jpg

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Summary execution fits the tone of that character so well right?! :ohwell:
http://i.imgur.com/kQP4W81.jpg

He deserved it.

Only the Doctor can wear a bowtie and not look like a complete moron. Sorry, Jimbo.

EDIT: In all seriousness, though, I do hate how Snyder summarily killed off both Jimmy Olsen and Mercy Graves in one movie. Second worst decision after casting Jesse Eisenberg.

[Andrew NDB]

EDIT: In all seriousness, though, I do hate how Snyder summarily killed off both Jimmy Olsen and Mercy Graves in one movie. Second worst decision after casting Jesse Eisenberg.

Are we sure Mercy Graves is dead? If she's an Amazon she would easily survive a little blast like that. Maybe she'll turn up in the Wonder Woman movie.

And there's still Jenny Olsen.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Are we sure Mercy Graves is dead? If she's an Amazon she would easily survive a little blast like that. Maybe she'll turn up in the Wonder Woman movie.

And there's still Jenny Olsen.

Later movies could get around those deaths, it's true. The CIA agent wasn't really Jimmy (alias!); Mercy is an Amazon and slipped out... still, for all practical intents and purposes, they dead.

[ToTheNines]

He deserved it.

Only the Doctor can wear a bowtie and not look like a complete moron. Sorry, Jimbo.

EDIT: In all seriousness, though, I do hate how Snyder summarily killed off both Jimmy Olsen and Mercy Graves in one movie. Second worst decision after casting Jesse Eisenberg.

Jimmy.... Mercy... Pa Kent... Emil Hamilton...

All dead in a fictional universe where Supes just ain't Supes and Lex sure as **** ain't Lex.

[plastroncafe]

It's always frustrating when poorly crafted fanfic by a BNF gets higher praise than it deserves.

[ToTheNines]

You mean a fan of Jesus Christ? Cause the man clearly hates Superman and is not a fan.

Pretty sure the only things he's read in his life are Frank Miller and The New Testament.

[Commenter 42]

You mean a fan of Jesus Christ? Cause the man clearly hates Superman and is not a fan.

Pretty sure the only things he's read in his life are Frank Miller and The New Testament.

Hard to tell if Snyder is deeply religious or not.
If only he'd give us a sign in his work...let us know how he feels about God.

That would be such an entertaining movie!

[ToTheNines]

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0AvPmn-MuTM/Vvo3y81pa9I/AAAAAAABuqw/_vNo80IGU04ETUe1Jg74NJhGYLphIYasg/s640/CeQrWvGW8AAQZRH.jpg

[Commenter 42]

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0AvPmn-MuTM/Vvo3y81pa9I/AAAAAAABuqw/_vNo80IGU04ETUe1Jg74NJhGYLphIYasg/s640/CeQrWvGW8AAQZRH.jpg

That's beautiful. I want that for my office.

[Commenter 42]

Angry ex-employee of WB destroys Kevin Tsujihara (http://www.aggressivecomix.com/open-letter-warner-brother-executives-hits-hard/)


I've gone on my rants before, but this guy... that's balls.

I wanted to know a little more about Mr. CEO, so I Wiki'ed him...

Funfact: He developed and launched QuickTax Inc., a tax preparation website.

Suddenly, it all makes sense.... and now we have Geoff Johns.

[plastroncafe]

I'd love to know who wrote the letter, not just because the letter is awesome, but because they name being attributed to it is: Gracie Law, a character from Big Trouble in Little China.

[Commenter 42]

I love the send off:

It’s time to wake up and make the f*cking donuts, Kevin.
-Gracie Law.

[CyberCubed]

I wonder if Superman will smile in this movie.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I wonder if Superman will smile in this movie.

He smiled at a minimum of six times in BvS alone. I counted.

[Commenter 42]

He smiled at a minimum of six times in BvS alone. I counted.

I didn't. Not even once.

[Splinter the boss]

I'm curious. Why does it matter if he smiles or not?
keep in mind I didn't visit the previous pages.

[Shark_Blade]

I'm curious. Why does it matter if he smiles or not?
keep in mind I didn't visit the previous pages.

It doesn't matter. Batman doesn't smile and we like him just fine too.

[ToTheNines]

I'm curious. Why does it matter if he smiles or not?
keep in mind I didn't visit the previous pages.

Because he's Superman. It would be a quality which one could consider in-character for him. Not than anyone at Warner Bros. has bothered to give the source material a look.

[plastroncafe]

Yeah, dark and dour is Batman's schtick. Why does this universe have him stepping on Batman's cape?

[Bry]

Superman isn't Batman and shouldn't be Batman. Turning him into Batman takes away everything that's special about him.

The reason that a good Batman/Superman team-up is so fun is because they're such different characters. They contrast and compliment each other. If, like in BvS, they're both made into the same shade of moody/super-serious grimdark, then the whole combination (and conflict) is just... boring. It completely deflates both characters.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/45/42/e6/4542e62398e8f12f1c4a671eedc3ddcb.jpg

[ObiWanFan4life]

Superman isn't Batman and shouldn't be Batman. Turning him into Batman takes away everything that's special about him.

The reason that a good Batman/Superman team-up is so fun is because they're such different characters. They contrast and compliment each other. If, like in BvS, they're both made into the same shade of moody/super-serious grimdark, then the whole combination (and conflict) is just... boring. It completely deflates both characters.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/45/42/e6/4542e62398e8f12f1c4a671eedc3ddcb.jpg

It's times like these I wish we had a Like button.

[Splinter the boss]

Superman isn't Batman and shouldn't be Batman. Turning him into Batman takes away everything that's special about him.

The reason that a good Batman/Superman team-up is so fun is because they're such different characters. They contrast and compliment each other. If, like in BvS, they're both made into the same shade of moody/super-serious grimdark, then the whole combination (and conflict) is just... boring. It completely deflates both characters.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/45/42/e6/4542e62398e8f12f1c4a671eedc3ddcb.jpg

Wow! Nice comic strip, really entertaining.

[raph27]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/45/42/e6/4542e62398e8f12f1c4a671eedc3ddcb.jpg

This reminds me of that Justice League webcomic with kids as DC characters. JL8 I think it's called.

[Commenter 42]

Toss Adams, hire Janet Montgomery
.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/48/fc/b9/48fcb9c4b73c67a904f9c860591c5c3d.jpg

Lois should be sexy, but powerful.


HUGE bonus points if they give her violet "Betty Davis eyes"
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/19/09/43/190943f211c70a36dca30d1a3aadc914.jpg

But not the song. I don't want the song.

[ToTheNines]

You're over Selma Blair though?

[Commenter 42]

You're over Selma Blair though?

Lol, yeah, we broke it off. Sad day in 42's world. I had to say "see ya later".

We'll always have Paris.
and Breakfast at Tiffany's...

[Andrew NDB]

JJ Abrams producing new Superman movie:

https://deadline.com/2021/02/superman-reboot-in-the-works-at-warner-bros-with-ta-nehisi-coates-writing-j-j-abrams-producing-1234701922/

Ta-Nehisi Coates is writing and Hannah Minghella is also a producer (an African American man and white woman, respectively).

Ta-Nehisi is the national correspondent for The Atlantic, and as such, "Coates covered cultural, social and political issues, specifically that of African Americans and white supremacy. His 2014 cover story for that publication, “The Case for Reparations,” started a national conversation on the subject. It was named the “Top Work of Journalism of the Decade” by New York University’s Carter School of Journalism Institute."

So basically this sounds like it could very well be Superman: SJW Bugaloo (or "Revenge for the 'Insurrection' at the Capitol and George Floyd"). Possibly starring a black Superman. Jeeze. I'm not even sure I'd want to see Cavill in such a thing. In fact, I know I wouldn't. I just want to see a good Brainiac movie, or something with Warworld... not "systemic racism" (and while Warworld and systemic racism are both imaginary, at least one of them is actually entertaining). Why is this so much to ask? If Cavill is in it it would probably just be about his giving up his "white privilege" on a sacrificial altar.

[Leo656]

I am greatly relieved that after Snyder's Justice League comes out, I never have to watch a comic book ever movie again.

A little disappointed. But way more relieved.

[AquaParade]

I am greatly relieved that after Snyder's Justice League comes out, I never have to watch a comic book ever movie again.

A little disappointed. But way more relieved.

Don't lie. If nothing else, you'll be sneaking reels into one of these babies, and filling in the blanks on your own.

https://www.amazon.com/Classic-Viewmaster-Viewer-Model-RED/dp/B0030BQY6A/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=master+classic+viewer&qid=1614383629&sr=8-6

;)

[Galactus]

JJ Abrams producing new Superman movie:

https://deadline.com/2021/02/superman-reboot-in-the-works-at-warner-bros-with-ta-nehisi-coates-writing-j-j-abrams-producing-1234701922/

Ta-Nehisi Coates is writing and Hannah Minghella is also a producer (an African American man and white woman, respectively).

Ta-Nehisi is the national correspondent for The Atlantic, and as such, "Coates covered cultural, social and political issues, specifically that of African Americans and white supremacy. His 2014 cover story for that publication, “The Case for Reparations,” started a national conversation on the subject. It was named the “Top Work of Journalism of the Decade” by New York University’s Carter School of Journalism Institute."

So basically this sounds like it could very well be Superman: SJW Bugaloo (or "Revenge for the 'Insurrection' at the Capitol and George Floyd"). Possibly starring a black Superman. Jeeze. I'm not even sure I'd want to see Cavill in such a thing. In fact, I know I wouldn't. I just want to see a good Brainiac movie, or something with Warworld... not "systemic racism" (and while Warworld and systemic racism are both imaginary, at least one of them is actually entertaining). Why is this so much to ask? If Cavill is in it it would probably just be about his giving up his "white privilege" on a sacrificial altar.

Ta-Nehisi Coates also writes Captain America for Marvel and frankly it hasn't turned Steve Rogers black or had his role usurped by an African American or had an anything to do with racial or 'SJW' issues. Simply having him as a writer shouldn't be seen as a sign of anything like that.

[Vegita-San]

he apparently called 9/11 rescuers trash.

If that's not bizarre SJW stuff, I don't know what is.

hard pass on this one.

[Leo656]

Don't lie. If nothing else, you'll be sneaking reels into one of these babies, and filling in the blanks on your own.

https://www.amazon.com/Classic-Viewmaster-Viewer-Model-RED/dp/B0030BQY6A/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=master+classic+viewer&qid=1614383629&sr=8-6

;)

HAH, I had one of those. I had some Real Ghostbusters reels.

But no, I won't be seeing this movie, ever. They already lost me with Abrams, but they 10000% lost me by deciding to do it the way they're doing it.

I ONLY care about a Superman movie that represents the comic book characters properly. There's a little room for leeway, but not this much. Didn't see the MCU Spider-Man movies, because they ignore the comics. Don't plan on seeing "The Batman", because of similar ass-wiping with much of the comics material. Riddler as Jigsaw? Batman as a 98-pound wimp? Nah, I'm out.

I'm not a huge Linkara guy - sometimes he's funny, sometimes irritating - but on comic book movies, we strongly agree: "I like the comic books. Those are the stories and characters I like, and I like them for specific reasons. Why would I want to watch something that completely disregards almost EVERYTHING I like about those stories and characters, to the point where it's only the same thing 'In Name Only'? I have zero interest in that whatsoever."

It's fine, I don't need to ever see any more Superman movies. They wouldn't be as good as "Man of Steel", it's not even possible. I'm of the same mind as I am about any more TMNT movies: "No thanks, they're just going to be terrible and I don't need to ever watch them. And I'm honestly Just Fine if they decide to stop trying forever."

So yeah, nice attempt at being cute, but I promise you, I won't be seeing this. We're coming up on almost ten years since BayTurtles 1 and I still haven't seen that one, either, and never, ever will. I made a promise to myself after Transformers 4 and ChickBusters almost gave me a stroke: If I already know I'm gonna hate it, I don't f*cking watch it. I'm already more than halfway to dead, at my age I don't have time to waste on sh*t that's just gonna piss me off. Which is why I'm never gonna watch "Ragnarok", either. I don't need the aggravation.

I'm done "just giving things a chance" when my gut is right 10000% of the time.

[Andrew NDB]

You know how leftists like to hijack an existing comic book character and either replace them with a new character who is LGBTQ and/or a different race, or simply force an existing character to be LGBTQ, because they know that on its own without that boost it'll probably fail? It's exactly the same principle.

i.e., "I really, really want to make a 'powerful' movie that makes a lot of money about systemic racism, how Trump supporters are nazis, and what a saint George Floyd was... but I know nobody will see it because nobody ever sees those kinds of movies (not in big numbers). But now if I package that movie inside of a 'Superman' relaunch movie! Ho-hooo!"

[Leo656]

You know how leftists like to hijack an existing comic book character and either replace them with a new character who is LGBTQ and/or a different race, or simply force an existing character to be LGBTQ, because they know that on its own without that boost it'll probably fail? It's exactly the same principle.

i.e., "I really, really want to make a 'powerful' movie that makes a lot of money about systemic racism, how Trump supporters are nazis, and what a saint George Floyd was... but I know nobody will see it because nobody ever sees those kinds of movies (not in big numbers). But now if I package that movie inside of a 'Superman' relaunch movie! Ho-hooo!"

They're in for a rude awakening, because most Superman fans don't want "Black Superman". And most of them won't go see it on principle. Not because "they're racists" but because Superman Is A White Guy. They see through the pandering nonsense you mentioned, as it's very transparent and people aren't generally AS stupid as Hollywood thinks.

For ten years, fans have been bemoaning the state of Superman movies by claiming that MoS and BvS "didn't respect the source material". They're wrong, anyone who actually reads comics can write a book on WHY they're wrong, but whatever, that's what their Big Complaint was.

And now they do THIS? :lol: Ohhhh YEAH, those people who claim that they hated MoS and BvS because they "didn't represent the source material properly" are just gonna LOVE this. :lol:

Should just go ahead and make "Hancock 2" instead, if they wanna scratch that itch. Will Smith's been doing a whole lotta nothin' lately.

[Andrew NDB]

They're in for a rude awakening, because most Superman fans don't want "Black Superman".

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think it'll be a black Superman. By the same token that JJ refused to do "Star Trek" 2009 without Nimoy to float around as Spock, because he knew without that little bit of credibility he was opening himself to having tomatoes thrown at him from all quarters. A black Superman movie, even if it's riding a currently en vogue movement... the potential for him to embarrass himself out of the gate is very high, and he hates that. No, it'll be Cavill Superman, or a Cavill-like Superman... but it'll be so mired in racism (like, actually racism, from the other guys) and white guilt it'd really be better of as just being a black Superman movie.

Like, just look at that writer guy's body of work. There is literally no other reason to hire him than to make a big steaming pile of "woke."

[Leo656]

Given how both WB and Michael B. Jordan have been trying to get a project starring him as Superman off the ground for years now, I have to respectfully disagree with your position. Smart money says that Adonis Creed will be the next Superman. Those are the Vegas Odds.

We shall see. But going by what this writer likes to write AND what WB has been actively pursuing, I don't see how anyone can predict it won't be Jordan unless the internet backlash is HUGE.

[Andrew NDB]

Given how both WB and Michael B. Jordan have been trying to get a project starring him as Superman off the ground for years

The last thing I read from Michael B. Jordan like a year ago when he responded to all of those rumors is that he wouldn't play black Superman. At least, Clark Kent. It'd need to be some other Superman from the multiverse, like the one Grant Morrison likes to write about. Which wouldn't interest Abrams at all and probably wouldn't suit the big picture of whatever WB is trying to rehatch the DCEU into.

We shall see. But going by what this writer likes to write AND what WB has been actively pursuing, I don't see how anyone can predict it won't be Jordan unless the internet backlash is HUGE.

There is writing a black Superman, and then there's writing a "white" Superman (he's an alien, for christ's sake) that has to lick the boots of the current movement in a big budget movie and helps legitimize it. If you're a card carrying member of the "movement" nowadays, there is probably more allure to the latter.

[TigerClaw]

The last thing I read from Michael B. Jordan like a year ago when he responded to all of those rumors is that he wouldn't play black Superman. At least, Clark Kent. It'd need to be some other Superman from the multiverse, like the one Grant Morrison likes to write about. Which wouldn't interest Abrams at all.
Yeah, Val Zod is the character he could play in a Elseworlds Superman movie.

[Sumac]

he apparently called 9/11 rescuers trash.

If that's not bizarre SJW stuff, I don't know what is.

hard pass on this one.
Seriously?
And what is the context for this? If there is any, except "I am so ****ing important that I can **** on people for whatever reason my brainfart produced today?"

[Leo656]

I'd never heard of this Coates guy, or at least I didn't remember hearing about him, so I did a little research and read some of the stuff he's written and done.

Guy's a huge racist asshole and a rotten human being. Openly hates white people, taught his kids to hate white people. Thinks Martin Luther King was a foolish optimist and that Whites and Blacks can never co-exist, that white people are inherently evil and violent and spend all of their time trying to hurt black people. Said 9/11 responders were "inhuman", and implied that 9/11 was a good thing because it was mostly rich white people who got killed. When Barack Obama gave a speech while he was President saying that black people needed to have more personal responsibility and not blame "racist whites" for all their problems, this guy called bullsh*t on that idea. He's said that the idea of an integrated society is foolish, and that even hoping for such a thing is foolish.

He is an angry, maladjusted human being with a sick and twisted worldview. He firmly believes that Blacks and Whites are forever destined to be at each others' throats and soundly rejects any suggestion to the contrary.

And THIS is the guy who's gonna write a movie about Superman, "the avatar of Hope".

People said that Zack Snyder's depiction was "dour" and "bleak"? That he "misunderstood the character"? That his presentation "lacked hope"? :roll:

Wait'll they get a load of what THIS asshole comes up with. This Coates guy literally has said "there IS no hope" if it means different groups of people ever coming together and coexisting... which is everything Superman represents.

This is WORSE than I feared. They literally have the Worst Possible Person they could ever have found to write Superman. A guy who hates people with different skin than him. A guy who doesn't even believe in hope as an abstract or a concept. A guy who believes "if your life sucks, it's all someone else's fault, and there's nothing you can do to get that boot off of your neck."

EVERYTHING this guy represents, is the exact OPPOSITE of what Superman represents. Every. Single. Thing.

This is a complete Worst Case Scenario. I can only hope that enough of this guy's nonsense words resurface, to the point where the backlash is SO severe that WB kicks him off the project. It would be one thing if they hired a black guy "just" to get some ink; they didn't have to hire the f*cking black equivalent of David Duke, for f*ck's sake.

I usually roll my eyes when people online dig into a person's past to try and "cancel" them, but in this case it's not only justified, but necessary. If a white guy said half the stuff this guy has said, he wouldn't just not be an influential writer, he'd be in goddamn jail for trying to start a race war. There's no room for such toxic, race-baiting nonsense in civilized society, and a guy with so much hatred in his heart should NOT be writing Superman.

This guy is trash. Literal human garbage.

[Sumac]

Guy's a huge racist asshole and a rotten human being. Openly hates white people, taught his kids to hate white people. Thinks Martin Luther King was a foolish optimist and that Whites and Blacks can never co-exist, that white people are inherently evil and violent and spend all of their time trying to hurt black people. Said 9/11 responders were "inhuman", and implied that 9/11 was a good thing because it was mostly rich white people who got killed. When Barack Obama gave a speech while he was President saying that black people needed to have more personal responsibility and not blame "racist whites" for all their problems, this guy called bullsh*t on that idea. He's said that the idea of an integrated society is foolish, and that even hoping for such a thing is foolish.

He is an angry, maladjusted human being with a sick and twisted worldview. He firmly believes that Blacks and Whites are forever destined to be at each others' throats and soundly rejects any suggestion to the contrary.

Wow.
No wonder leftards worship him.

Not sure what I've expected, but this is even worse, than I thought.

[IMJ]

They hired cesspool, scumbag, racist writer Ta'Nehisi Coates for the movie. It is absolutely going to feature a black Superman or bare minimum will be laced with agenda and trod on traditional white culture. The only reason that Coates has been accepted in writer culture is that it is replete with liberals who are looking for an outlet for their own hate.

How can any of you people not see that what has been going on, and the positioning of people with this hostile takeover of culture is a lie? They aren't fighting injustice. But what they are doing is an outlet for whatever rage was instilled into them as children during dinner with their own racist parents who went on, and on, either about their perceived injustices or ancient injustices of the world. And now those kids are grown up, like Coates and they've never actually had their lives impacted by racism but they feel that they are fighting the good fight based on their Dad's loud fu(&*& mouth at dinner as a kid.

And the reason that society itself isn't putting a stop to this is because no one wants to speak the truth like I just did here for fear of being scarlet lettered. Because the weakest amongst you pieces of $#!( or the dumbest amongst you dumb $#%^ would brand someone a racist because those of that are so shallow, that are such losers, that the feeling of being involved in a gang mentality for the first time in your pathetic fu$%^&* lives makes you feel safe.

What is going on is not equality. It is vengeance for perceived slights and it is scared losers joining in, and it is complete bull $#!t. And the dumbest amongst you, the absolute bottom losers of humanity would read what I wrote here and either here or somewhere else call me a racist for what I've said here. And you'd be the same person that hung a bunch of people in Salem, MA for allegedly being witches. But then again those same people are so f'n dumb that you don't even understand what I'm saying when I cite being "scarlet lettered" or "The salem witch trials".

[ZariusTwo]

How can any of you people not see that what has been going on, and the positioning of people with this hostile takeover of culture is a lie?

I think more people understand than they used to, but some generally fear the repercussions of speaking out about it due to the weaponization of "cancel culture" by the radicalised 'outraged' social media plants

It's been telling for a considerable while this decade that we now live in a world where the black hats are worn by those in white

[IMJ]

I think more people understand than they used to, but some generally fear the repercussions of speaking out about it due to the weaponization of "cancel culture" by the radicalised 'outraged' social media plants

That's exactly what I'm getting at as well. Exactly. People need to hit this nonsense head-on now and basically all costs.

[CyberCubed]

There's nothing interesting about a black superman. He would still be Clark Kent, and unless they re-write his backstory to be from "da hood" instead of Kansas, he'd have the same upbringing. So it's pointless skin color change that accomplishes nothing.

Remember the days most actors were white and black actors got their own movies and roles as well? It was fine. If Coming to America 2 was recast with a white Eddie Murphy everyone would be pissed.

[IMJ]

There's nothing interesting about a black superman. He would still be Clark Kent, and unless they re-write his backstory to be from "da hood" instead of Kansas, he'd have the same upbringing. So it's pointless skin color change that accomplishes nothing.

Remember the days most actors were white and black actors got their own movies and roles as well? It was fine. If Coming to America 2 was recast with a white Eddie Murphy everyone would be pissed.

That's because it's a lie and a manipulation and a one way street. These people are disingenuous. Don't believe them and stopping caving into their assertions and demands. Don't cheat anyone out of anything. Don't do that. But don't bend a knee to this BS. Don't give it your money and don't help it. Just walk away. Don't harm anyone or stop anyone from earning something. But don't support this financially. Just don't.

[Autbot_Benz]

There's nothing interesting about a black superman. He would still be Clark Kent, and unless they re-write his backstory to be from "da hood" instead of Kansas, he'd have the same upbringing. So it's pointless skin color change that accomplishes nothing.

Remember the days most actors were white and black actors got their own movies and roles as well? It was fine. If Coming to America 2 was recast with a white Eddie Murphy everyone would be pissed.

you do know DC Comics already has 2 alt earth black superman they can use for this movie right? Val-Zod and Calvin Ellis

[Andrew NDB]

And guess what happens when this movie fails?

"Oh... I guess we were right. Superman is really hard to write and 'get right.' Well, we tried again. We'll try it again in another 10 years."

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

And guess what happens when this movie fails?

"Oh... I guess we were right. Superman is really hard to write and 'get right.' Well, we tried again. We'll try it again in another 10 years."

Except for his appearances on the CW, where Supergirl and Lois and his kids are all better superheroes than he is.

[Leo656]

And guess what happens when this movie fails?

"Oh... I guess we were right. Superman is really hard to write and 'get right.' Well, we tried again. We'll try it again in another 10 years."

That's exactly it.

The movie will get great reviews, for being "groundbreaking" and "fresh" and "different". Because it's automatically insulated from criticism. "If you don't like it, you're racist."

BUT. It won't be a movie about hope, or optimism, or the Superman character being "the bridge between two peoples", because Coates doesn't personally BELIEVE in those things at all. He believes in oppression and segregation as a default. He believes that cultural divides can never be overcome. He believes that if you're black, you essentially have "no hope" because the entire game is rigged against you, so it's pointless to even try and better yourself.

This movie will be bitter, jaded, and cynical in a way that makes Zack Snyder look like Mary Poppins. Mark my f*cking words.

And this is lousy because for whatever I think about MoS or BvS or Zack Snyder or Henry Cavill, people who don't like those movies or that portrayal tend to say "It's not hopeful or uplifting enough". I personally disagree, but it's what they say. You ask them what they don't like, they'll tell you. Right or Wrong, that's their opinion.

So WB's solution to this "problem" is to hire a writer who is the exact opposite of "hopeful" or "optimistic" in his words, deeds and actions. He is a bitter and angry human being, and it didn't happen yesterday, he's been like this for decades.

You can NOT say things like "It's foolish to believe that we can ever come together as a society across racial divides" and write Superman. You can't. You can't say things like "Justice doesn't exist for you if you're different from the people in power" and write Superman. You can't say "We are powerless to ever overcome oppression because it's culturally ingrained and we're outnumbered" and write for Superman.

You cannot be so literally Hopeless and write for the character who is the entire personification of Hope as a concept.

What a terrible, horrible, awful, ass-backwards decision.

And WHEN actual Superman fans stay home, and the movie doesn't make money, WB will declare, "Well, we tried EVERYTHING! I guess Superman just doesn't sell!" And then it goes back on the shelf. 10 years? Probably more like 20 or more. It's happened before.

Horrible.

F*ck WB. And F*ck This Guy for everything he believes. It's HIS sh*t attitude that KEEPS the racial divide going and actually has made it worse than ever. This whole "We can never come together, you can never overcome" horse sh*t. F*CK that racist, divisive, ass-backwards f*cking LIE that keeps people wallowing in victimhood and keeps people down and stuck living in misery. When you TELL people "There's no hope, don't bother", guess what? They listen. But if you tell, and further SHOW people, "Guess what? You CAN overcome. You CAN rise above," then guess what? They ALSO listen. What a person chooses to believe has a lot to do with what they've been taught.

We each, as individuals, have the responsibility to put The Right Message out into the world, in hope that others will absorb it and in turn follow it. That message CAN NOT BE "the whole world is against you, and you can't do sh*t about it except be angry and 'fight back'." No. NO, I REJECT that idea. I REJECT the idea that people can't come together, that people can't Be Better, that it's all out of our hands. I reject everything this guy espouses.

He can not be writing Superman. He can't. He just can't.

[Andrew NDB]

The movie will get great reviews, for being "groundbreaking" and "fresh" and "different". Because it's automatically insulated from criticism. "If you don't like it, you're racist."

Yep. I can already see the 20-30 SJW articles that will arise.

"Why aren't white men (and women) seeing the new Superman movie?" and so on, with a bunch of like-minded people sharing these articles on FB with a "See? Racism is alive!" This will, of course, probably be after we get a bunch of interviews with the writer and maybe some of the cast saying things like, "You're a white man and don't want to see a black Superman? DON'T WATCH IT!!!"

[Leo656]

They get their wish; I won't be seeing it.

[Andrew NDB]

Now Henry Cavill is getting "backlash" (from weirdos) for dating Gina Carano:

https://www-deseret-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/entertainment/2021/2/27/22303162/man-of-steel-henry-cavill-gina-carano-dating?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16144766669496&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseret.com%2Fentertain ment%2F2021%2F2%2F27%2F22303162%2Fman-of-steel-henry-cavill-gina-carano-dating

[Leo656]

He's legit one of the nicest guys in the cesspool that is Hollywood. People are f*cking stupid.

[Coola Yagami]

Now Henry Cavill is getting "backlash" (from weirdos) for dating Gina Carano:

https://www-deseret-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/entertainment/2021/2/27/22303162/man-of-steel-henry-cavill-gina-carano-dating?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16144766669496&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseret.com%2Fentertain ment%2F2021%2F2%2F27%2F22303162%2Fman-of-steel-henry-cavill-gina-carano-dating

And like... not even dating her nowdays, this was ten years ago.

Imagine dating, idk.... Melissa Benoit, and she does some whatever **** years later that gets her 'cancelled' and now they turn the focus on you cause you ****ed her a few times years before?

These guys are insane.

[Andrew NDB]

As far as these whackos are concerned, he has two things going against him: #1: a couple of years ago he said he was afraid to date in the middle of the #metoo movement (https://www.yahoo.com/news/henry-cavill-says-hes-scared-date-post-metoo-doesnt-want-called-rapist-alone-155417524.html). #2: he dated Gina Carano.

I think the going after Cavill now mostly smacks of cancelling Gina Carano probably not being satisfactory enough for these types (she has her new Daily Wire deal, didn't back down and apologize to anybody).

[Sumac]

Yep. I can already see the 20-30 SJW articles that will arise.

"Why aren't white men (and women) seeing the new Superman movie?" and so on, with a bunch of like-minded people sharing these articles on FB with a "See? Racism is alive!" This will, of course, probably be after we get a bunch of interviews with the writer and maybe some of the cast saying things like, "You're a white man and don't want to see a black Superman? DON'T WATCH IT!!!"
Its like with Birds of Prey again:
Step 1: "You toxic male incels do not like movies with strong women? Go **** yourself don't watch it, NAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!".
Step 2: BOP fails like a crap, cue: "Why those nasty white men scum didn't saw movies with the strong womenz, NAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!".
Step 3: "We need more moviez with strong womenz to show them white male scum, BWAAAAAAAAAAHHH!"
Step 4 (probably): Hollywood execs launder money using dumb**** "feminists" and Twatters as tools to gain influence and money.

Now Henry Cavill is getting "backlash" (from weirdos) for dating Gina Carano:

https://www-deseret-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/entertainment/2021/2/27/22303162/man-of-steel-henry-cavill-gina-carano-dating?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a6&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16144766669496&csi=0&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.deseret.com%2Fentertain ment%2F2021%2F2%2F27%2F22303162%2Fman-of-steel-henry-cavill-gina-carano-dating
Geee, man, but SJW scum is totally not a religious cult who will chase those who were close to infidels for something they did YEARS before person was cancelled. No, sir! They are totally rational and nice people who want better future for everyone (but people they disagree with).

[Andrew NDB]

Dany Garcia (the ex wife of the Rock who also represents Henry Cavill) posted earlier today about wishing she could say something about "big things" that are happening but can't due to NDAs.

Pretty good odds given the timing of the post it has everything to do with Superman. And Cavill.

https://cosmicbook.news/big-things-henry-cavill-dany-garcia?amp

[IMJ]

Sometimes I think the people who pull this complaint nonsense know the complaints aren't valid and instead are opportunistic. These are people like Heath Ledger's Joker who know that they have power to stir $#!( up and that's actually what they are doing.

Like when you have that one friend that we've all had - you like the guy but he's an idiot and he says rude $#!( or makes comments that reveal his jealousy about his life as compared to your life. And you know that he's doing it because other people do it to him somewhere for his daily stupidity and he's sort of trying it out on you so that he can figure it out.

And for the cross section of the people of Twitter that are like that, this then means that the fault is actually on the people that respond and give them what they want. The complainers should have next to zero power unless their complaint stemmed from an action that had a direct and proximate impact on their physical well being. People who run companies and studios are completely at fault for responding to complainers that have no connection at all whatsoever to a person yet demand their livelihood.

And all of that even makes me wonder if someone at the studio was the one who stirred up this Cavill/Cara Dune thing just to help push him out knowing that he would be a shadow over their agenda plan Superman movie with Abrams.

[Andrew NDB]

YEHs07CRgso

[Sumac]

Sometimes I think the people who pull this complaint nonsense know the complaints aren't valid and instead are opportunistic.
I'd say most of them are.
Especially when it comes to people with money and some kind of reputation.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

They could just do a John Stewart film if they want a black superhero.

[AquaParade]

They could just do a John Stewart film if they want a black superhero.

To play devil's advocate, Green Lantern doesn't hold the same weight as Superman.

It's not about having a black hero, it's about having Superman be a black man. Sort of like Sam Wilson - Captain America.

[IMJ]

They could just do a John Stewart film if they want a black superhero.

Exactly.

X. Ackt. Lee.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

To play devil's advocate, Green Lantern doesn't hold the same weight as Superman.

It's not about having a black hero, it's about having Superman be a black man. Sort of like Sam Wilson - Captain America.

Yes but why though? Falcon was given the Mantle by Steve so it's not the same scenario.

[Zulithe]

Based on the creative team and the rumors, yeah they probably are doing a black Superman. I just hope they do Calvin Ellis or one of the existing options and not remake Clark as black. I feel like that trend is really overdone in Hollywood and rarely works well. Better to lift up existing POC characters instead like they did with Miles Morales, worked wonders for Into The Spider-Verse. If they had instead did a black Peter Parker I think it wouldn't have felt so natural.

(Yes I know all about Bendis and how Miles was created, before anyone wants to get into it. I'm talking about the films here.)

[IMJ]

To play devil's advocate, Green Lantern doesn't hold the same weight as Superman.

It's not about having a black hero, it's about having Superman be a black man. Sort of like Sam Wilson - Captain America.

Yes. That's true. But you shouldn't stop there. You should give some consideration to the sense of self-importance and narcissism that it takes to create a culture of hostile takeover to serve that mentality instead of raising children to enjoy a character like Superman regardless of color. You don't see it? You can't see that if color didn't matter and we live in an inviting America that you want to be part of, that you could just raise your children of color to join the society and they wouldn't care that Superman is white?

But instead the activity is hostile. When you do this, you aren't joining an advancing country, but rather you are attacking an advancing country.

Mentality #1
"We will bring our kids into the societal fold and raise them to enjoy Superman regardless of his color because we want the divisions to end. And we can do this safely because society at large is a better place than it was in time's past."

Mentality #2
"Black people can be Superman too and we will take him from you to prove it, to enhance ourselves and to fight racism by doing this. Which of course is sound logic because it will flush out every racist by proxy of anyone who doesn't like what we do. We are special and put the word "black" in front of everything and are busy being "black men in America" rather than just "men" in America."

What has widely proliferated is mentality #2. And most people who support it are either too dumb or too afraid to parse out the truth. Most people who support this are hiding in the witch hunt by burning someone at the stake with the craziest of crazy people.

There are two camps. The first is an entire cohort of people who have mastered finger pointing, complaining and excuse making about life. The second are the normal, well-adjusted people of color have advanced their lives, supported their children, go to work and hope for growth and they aren't on board for this. And if they are they at least have the decency to keep their human-condition-anger at the world under wraps.

The race swapping, the hostile infiltration, the scarlet lettering of anyone who points out the problems with this, all simply keep racism alive at the service of some liberal thinkers ego.

[CyberCubed]

Why a black Superman though? Why not a Mexican Superman? Or a Chinese Superman? Or an Indian Superman? Or a Muslim Superman?

There's no difference between a black Superman or virtually any other race, they're just choosing black because it's the most "common" thing to do. Imagine if they cast an Indian guy as Superman? But I bet Hollywood wouldn't think of it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Imagine if they cast an Indian guy as Superman? But I bet Hollywood wouldn't think of it.

You're obviously not familiar with Bollywood.

[Zulithe]

There are lots of other super people of various races. There is Kong Kenan for example, if they want to do a Chinese superman. So they have lots of options. Probably black though because that's often how these things pan out.

Personally I feel Asian and Latino representation is lacking while black representation is very strong in modern super hero cinema. So yes, I would love to see them do Kong Kenan instead, for example.

[AquaParade]

I'm not saying it's the right way to do things, but trying to get at the reason WB is making a movie about a black Superman, instead of using a character who is already black.

[Prowler]

Am I crazy or wasn't The Rock rumoured to play Superman in a future movie about a decade ago? I don't know if it ever was a substantial rumour or not, but I remember such rumour. It was around 2009 or 2010 I think?

And a couple of years before The Rock had been rumoured to play Johnny Bravo in a live action adaptation of the Cartoon Network series, but the movie ended up getting cancelled.

[Galactus]

JJ Abrams isn't someone that is going to push for a black Superman and just because Te Nehesi Coates is rumoured to be writing doesn't mean it either. He wanted to write Captain America because he wanted to write a character whose own personal beliefs were very different to his own and it was perfectly fine. Not the best Captain America run but pretty good and Steve Rogers was characterised as he should be.

But if we must debate the merits of a black superman.

Mentality #1
"We will bring our kids into the societal fold and raise them to enjoy Superman regardless of his color because we want the divisions to end. And we can do this safely because society at large is a better place than it was in time's past."

That suggests that black people exist outside of the "societal fold". If African Americans feel disenfranchised and apart from society it will be because society isn't that a much a better place than it was in times past.

You can reverse this argument and say why can't white kids be raised to appreciate black superheroes? I'm sure a lot of people here would say they are but how many black led superhero movies are there compared to white ones?

Mentality #2
"Black people can be Superman too and we will take him from you to prove it, to enhance ourselves and to fight racism by doing this. Which of course is sound logic because it will flush out every racist by proxy of anyone who doesn't like what we do. We are special and put the word "black" in front of everything and are busy being "black men in America" rather than just "men" in America."

Having a version of Superman which is black doesn't erase the myriad versions of Superman which is white including the ongoing version in the comics.

Also the black experience in the Western world is very different to the white one. Trying to pretend otherwise is just burying your head in the sand. One small piece of evidence to support that is the lack of black led superheroes in movies. It's not even some weird that is a thing when we know there are people in positions of power who shout down the idea of black led superhero movies (as well as female and LGBTQ-led movies) out of the belief they don't sell tickets or toys.

[IMJ]

Why a black Superman though? Why not a Mexican Superman? Or a Chinese Superman? Or an Indian Superman? Or a Muslim Superman?

EXACTLY. X. Ackt. Lee.

[Sumac]

But if we must debate the merits of a black superman.
Why can't those people create superheroes of their own, instead race-lifting pre-existing characters?

[Coola Yagami]

Why can't those people create superheroes of their own, instead race-lifting pre-existing characters?

Because then you get **** like that Super Friendship Squad or whatever that show is called.

[Sumac]

Because then you get **** like that Super Friendship Squad or whatever that show is called.
They have enough money to write competent writers and market new character as they see fit. Its not an excuse anymore.

[Leo656]

They tried to set up an entire "blacks-only" comic book company back in the 90s with Milestone, and gave it a huge push out of the gate with a big DC cross-over - which annoyed the crap out of people because several ongoing arcs in multiple books were abruptly put on hold for a few weeks so that this "Big Important Event" with a bunch of characters nobody had ever heard of could take center stage. The entire line shut down in less than four years due to an overwhelming lack of interest. Static Shock hung on and even managed to get a cartoon series, but there was a lot more stuff that was completely ignored. DC eventually bought them out and periodically tries to inject them into the main universe, but again, nobody honestly cares about Icon and Hardware.

The "why" of all this has been explored to death, and some of the reasons are generally dismissed as being racist. But if a company tried to launch a minority-focused line at the height of the comic book speculation boom, when every publisher had its own new super-hero "universe", and they put a lot of money and effort into marketing and advertising these things, including a DC cross-over and a ton of ink in Wizard magazine... and it didn't work... then maybe it's just not something that works. That was the biggest, best, and most sincere effort in that endeavor, and it failed.

Every effort since then to "inject diversity" into mainstream comics has been very cynical and corporate-mandated, whereas Milestone was a creator-driven task where a bunch of minority writers and artists saw a hole in the marketplace and tried to address it in an honest and reasonable way completely on their own. But where was the audience? Why didn't they turn out to support this project? Again, there's a lot of reasons given, but you're generally not supposed to address them out loud because "that's racist".

It could be that, generally speaking, there are enough minorities who already like Superman, Batman, the X-Men, etc. for who they already are and don't specifically need "Black Superman" or "Black Batman" in order to feel "included" or more "represented". There's a very strong possibility that the minorities who were already buying Superman comics didn't care about buying comics about Icon, and saw the premise of "What if Superman were a black guy instead?" as pandering. Again, much of it is speculative; what's NOT speculative is, they "created new characters", they wrote new stories, and in the end people didn't care enough to support the brand, and the brand shut down very quickly. Most people don't even remember "Milestone".

So I kind of understand why if minority creators are looking to get some ink, it's quicker/easier to just "race-flip" an existing character than come up with a new one. But it still kind of illustrates a problem with their approach when they're so incredibly convinced that minorities only respond to characters who strongly resemble them.

I'm sure there are some people who'd only like Superman or Wonder Woman if they were Black, or whatever else, but I have to believe that they're a minority of a minority.

[Prowler]

I don't understand this recent idea that people need fictional characters to look like them in order to relate better to them and thus become fans.

Look at anime and Japanese videogames. They're popular all over the world. Do you think kids all over the world like that stuff any less because the characters are mostly Japanese? Of course not. When I was a kid EVERYONE watched some anime TV and I've never, and I mean LITERALLY NEVER, heard any kid around my age at the time complain there weren't enough white characters in anime. I didn't hear any of the black kids I know complain about the lack of black characters either.

So really, where is all of this coming from? Must be from a VERY small vocal minority. What kind of normal person keeps tabs on how many people of each colour exist in each series as they flip through channels?

[Coola Yagami]

The thing that gets me is why the companies choose to pander to the minority over the majority. The SJWS don't buy the books, they just use them to make articles to announce that it's the first (insert whatever diverse here) or to complain that the new book is not diverse enough.

This whole 'like me' nonsense has got to stop.

OK, I admit, as a Hispanic, I do smile when I hear Spanish in an 'American' movie. I thought Luis from the MCU was a riot, but he has his role and doesn't need to be the main character for example. I don't need Winter Soldier to be cast as Hispanic for me to like him nor do I need some big 'all Hispanic cast' movie about Miguel O'Hara or whatever.

On the flip-side characters that feel forced and they have to throw an 'ese' every third sentence bother me, cause not all of us talk like that.

[Sumac]

I don't understand this recent idea that people need fictional characters to look like them in order to relate better to them and thus become fans.
Individualism + post-modernism + social networks made a lot of young, and not only, people narcisstic, to the point where they can't hear "no" as an answer and think they are the most amazing (and somehow) most oppressed people on the planet, thus demanding TO BE represented everywhere.

Basically a colossal ego trip, pandered by corporations, who don't understand that nothing will satisfy them, just will make them more hungry and stupid.

[IMJ]

Individualism + post-modernism + social networks made a lot of young, and not only, people narcisstic, to the point where they can't "no" as an answer and think they are the most amazing (and somehow) most oppressed people on the planet, thus demanding TO BE represented everywhere.

Basically a colossal ego trip, pandered by corporations, who don't understand that nothing will satisfy them, just will make them more hungry and stupid.

I absolutely love and respect the insight for writing this behaviorally focused post about the nature of what is going on right now. This is the root system by which I tend to explain how things happen.

It's one that is often way too overlooked by people looking for explanations, and ignored by people who do these things. The very nature of their problem means that they will not look at themselves and recognize these negative things about their personality, and therefore they can't change. The very nature of the problem informs these people that they don't have a problem.

[Sumac]

What's worse this idiots obscure problems and real oppression of others with their ********, like "I have very unique special gender - I am the most oppressed person on Earth, donate me money and make laws to protect me or you are a Nazi!!".

As a result tax money go to those pathetic idiots, while people who need real help end up with nothing.

To put it bluntly - they are NOT victims, they are parasites.

[AquaParade]

I'm still waiting for my white 50 Cent. Black people get all the cool hip, hop guys and we just have Eminem.

[Sumac]

I have a feeling, that if Eminem debuted this days he would be immediately "cancelled" on the grounds of "cultural appropriation" and "racism".

[Galactus]

I have a feeling, that if Eminem debuted this days he would be immediately "cancelled" on the grounds of "cultural appropriation" and "racism".

Eminem always acknowledged that he was in a position of privilege and talked a lot of the black artists he took inspiration from and helped him get to the position he was in. He wouldn't be cancelled for that.

His homophobia might be a problem but this is a area I feel he has legitimately evolved on. If he debuted now it likely wouldn't be part of music.

[Leo656]

Meh. I think Madchild is way better than Eminem ever was. Eminem was very much a corporate MTV creation whereas Mad represents the underground. Madchild was once banned from America for congregating with Hell's Angels; that's "street cred" that money can't buy.

Em spits faster but I think Mad's rhymes are legit funnier. Plus, Mad wrote "Red Dragon", which pretty much trumps everything, anywhere, ever.

The only bad thing about Mad (aside from being a huge drug addict) is that he's Canadian. But on a case-by-case basis I'm occasionally willing to overlook that. I mean it's bad, but it's forgivable. Especially since he moved to L.A. at one point and I think he's a dual-citizen now.

But yeah, everybody talks about Eminem, and nobody ever remembers that Madchild absolutely belongs in the conversation. He wrote a song called "Zombie F*cker." That's awesome.

[Sumac]

Eminem always acknowledged that he was in a position of privilege and talked a lot of the black artists he took inspiration from and helped him get to the position he was in. He wouldn't be cancelled for that.
You assume that SJW trash would have enough brain to figure it out, but they go for people regardless of how much good work they've done.

If you did something wrong in their eyes - you are forever bad guy and nothing will redeem you. Yes, they are that childish and infantile.

[Andrew NDB]

I have a feeling, that if Eminem debuted this days he would be immediately "cancelled" on the grounds of "cultural appropriation" and "racism".

They're already trying.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/04/gen-z-tries-to-cancel-eminem-but-millennials-push-back/?utm_source=NYPFacebook&sr_share=facebook&utm_medium=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=SocialFlow

[Leo656]

I am admittedly not much of a fan of his, but that's pretty stupid.

Rap music by definition is very much about anger. Some of that's political, some of it's domestic, but it's rooted in feelings of dissatisfaction and rage. That's like the entire point of its existence, whether it was Chuck D imploring people to "Fight The Power" or Eminem spilling his guts about all the nasty stuff he fantasized about doing to his ex-wife. Sure, that's not all of what rap music is or can be, but that's ultimately where it comes from. And when rap music is neutered... boy, it's pretty terrible.

This younger generation is really screwed up. Getting their feelings hurt by every passing cloud. I'unno where it started but it needs to stop.

[Coola Yagami]

I am admittedly not much of a fan of his, but that's pretty stupid.

Rap music by definition is very much about anger. Some of that's political, some of it's domestic, but it's rooted in feelings of dissatisfaction and rage. That's like the entire point of its existence, whether it was Chuck D imploring people to "Fight The Power" or Eminem spilling his guts about all the nasty stuff he fantasized about doing to his ex-wife. Sure, that's not all of what rap music is or can be, but that's ultimately where it comes from. And when rap music is neutered... boy, it's pretty terrible.

This younger generation is really screwed up. Getting their feelings hurt by every passing cloud. I'unno where it started but it needs to stop.

Now I want to hear a hardcore gangsta rap about an old guy rappin bout passing clouds and kids not getting the **** off his lawn.

[Leo656]

I have not heard ALL of Madchild's most recent catalog, as he seems to put out a new song every week or so. He's rather old and disgruntled, though, so I'm willing to bet he's at least touched on some of these things at least once. :lol:

[oldmanwinters]

Remember, no matter how hard one tries to appease the new cultural orthodoxy, it's never enough:
It is also worthy to note that representation and social commentary aren't the only areas of exploration afforded to a Black Superman, as all aspects of Black culture could and should be utilized to produce a full-bodied character not limited to trite tropes. How do his notions of serving Earth change when raised as a Black man in a systemically racist country? Does he see vigilantes as a welcome alternative to perpetual over-policing, or does he forsake his community to become a hero for every man (aka white men)? These are the questions a non-marginalized hero could never explore onscreen, and should be the driving force of Superman's internal narrative, not overdone stereotypes. (The only trope I will tolerate is a short scene where Superman jokes that he can mask his identity with a simple pair of glasses because all Black people look the same, followed by a wink from a random Daily Planet security guard in on the joke.)

The premise of a Black Superman fighting a canon villain to save society without mention of his thoughts on whether this society is worth saving would fail on all fronts of the story. If DC wants a simple story, stick with a simple character: a white man who has no reservations about serving his country, because when he really thinks about it, the country has always done the same for him.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/having-black-superman-huge-deal-213818896.html

[Leo656]

Remember, no matter how hard one tries to appease the new cultural orthodoxy, it's never enough:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/having-black-superman-huge-deal-213818896.html


Gross.

For better or worse, we live in a world where when it comes to recent Superman films, material that's presented and meant to be taken as "poignant, thoughtful and introspective" is erroneously seen as "mopey, angsty, and Emo" by people who will only accept Superman so long as he never expresses any human emotions aside from an abundance of joy. He's either constantly smiling and making bold dramatic speeches, or people don't wanna see it. That's the most vocal opinion, even if it isn't the majority opinion.

And so of COURSE the natural thing to do is to present Superman as an "angry black man" wrestling with what it means to be the most powerful man in the world when that world is "full of inherent systemic racism." THAT is the "hopeful, joyous, optimistic" counterpoint to the "still trying to figure things out" portrayal of the recent movies. Sure. :roll:

Snyder's films have already dealt with those themes about feelings of alienation, and people generally hating or fearing those who are "different" just because they are in fact different, in a very real and satisfying way. He doesn't need to be a black guy, with the point being made with the subtlety of a brick to the head, for those themes to be explored. Many people have made the case that "those aren't themes that need to be explored in a Superman movie; we don't want to see a world that fears him or him wrestling with his role and what he represents, or any of that stuff," but the fact is that for those who like Snyder's films, it's their exploration of that very material that gives them so much of their weight. We the audience know that he's the story's hero, because we see him strive to be that; to the world at large, he's just dangerous, an unpredictable loose cannon they can't fully trust or put faith in because he's just so "different" from them - until he gives his life to save the world that had feared and scorned him. He never gave up on the people he was pledged to save, even when they wouldn't accept him. That's the drama. That's the heroism. That's the "hope".

BUT. Some people will still swear that such weighty themes are just "too heavy" or "too dark" for a mainstream Superman movie. I disagree with that sentiment, as do many others, but it helps to explain why the reaction to that presentation of Superman is so divisive, with those who love it REALLY loving it and those who feel it was "wrong" not allowing for any argument to the contrary.

So it completely f*cking baffles me why WB would make this particular choice, when the most overwhelming criticism of their most recent Superman movies has been "Not happy enough." When one of the few things people liked about the theatrical cut of Justice League was "Look how smiley-happy Superman is all of a sudden!" People who leaned away from Snyder's take have been saying since "Man of Steel" that what they want is something lighter and more upbeat, and even people who love Snyder's presentation generally acknowledge that it's about time that Superman take a step away from being "thoughtful and introspective" and more towards the more lighthearted and well-adjusted character he's generally presented as. It was a journey of self-discovery, and I'd forever argue that it was done well, but it would be acceptable now to lean into a more upbeat direction, sure.

But with this... if anything, it promises to be MORE "bleak and dour" than anything Snyder was ever accused of. Some people who hate Snyder's style have said that his exploration of themes is as subtle as a sledgehammer; Superman as an "oppressed, angry black man" fighting to save the world while overcoming "systemic racism", with all the dramatic irony being "But the world will always hate him and never accept him, NOT because he's an alien... but because he's black!" will be about as subtle as an 18-wheeler full of sledgehammers and pianos ramming into a brick wall at full speed.

This whole thing is stupid. The one saving grace, is that the most recent thing I've read was that it's going to be an "Elseworlds" movie with a different character entirely, so it's not like they'll be ruining Clark Kent for this nonsense. But at the same time, it's baffling and infuriating that the next motion picture presentation of Superman, the one that's going to define the character for the next decade in the eyes of mainstream audiences, isn't even going to be the real Superman in any form or fashion whatsoever. That's lunacy.

Typical WB. "We don't know how to market our products, except by the whims of Millennial Twitter. Those are the only people we listen to."

Garbage. This promises to be nothing but garbage. And in the unlikely event it actually turns out to be successful... well, it will just hammer home the point that for all their bluster people just plain don't like or understand the Superman character, if they'd reject Snyder's take but embrace something like this instead.

[Sumac]

Remember, no matter how hard one tries to appease the new cultural orthodoxy, it's never enough:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/having-black-superman-huge-deal-213818896.html
This **** was written by retard who most likely never ever read a good Superman story in his life.

Even though I am not big fan of Sups, his overall motivation has nothing to do with serving a country. His conflict is whether or not he should serve humanity as a whole, as imperfect as it is, while he, himself, being almost a perfection himself.

The rest about "systemic racism" and **** is not even worse mentioning. Author lives in his own reality and I don't see much of a purpose to comment on delusions.

[Galactus]

People who watch movies like to see their characters go on a journey of some form. Who they are when they start the movie is different to who they when they end it. They change and the characters around them change too.

We've talked before about how Man of Steel is basically Objectivist story. Snyder gets Superman enough that he is too earnest and selfless to be an objectivist so the natural journey he goes in proving everyone including Ma and Pa Kent that tells him he must only think of himself his views are right. The movie contrives a scenario that forced the character to choose to murder Zod or have everyone else die, something which if it happened in any other version of this property he'd find another way but here he folds and kills him.

So maybe the journey that Clark/Superman has been on this entire time was the opposite and our protagonist was wrong and everyone else was right. Maybe some evil should be shown no mercy and should be snuffed out on the spot. That's certainly not what I would want for Superman but I'd grudgingly respect the guts of going in that direction...but it doesn't do that either.

Despite being forced to something which goes against his own moral code he does his embarassing scream and just feels bad about it. It doesn't change him or any of the world around him in any meaningful way. The movie poses some pretty important questions it just doesn't answer them. Not because they were saving it for other movies in that same continuity (because they didn't explore this further) or because Snyder wanted the audience to come up with their own conclusions but there isn't really a satisfying answer.

People were iffy on Man of Steel not because it was dark and serious and they are just brainless idiots who wanted the Donner movie version or because it tried explore 'serious' themes (most of which were covered by other hit comic book movies) but because it just wasn't good. An interesting movie for sure but not actually good. To be honest I came away from MOS thinking the movie was made a man who likes Superman's idealism but staunchly doesn't agree with it and wanted to prove the character wrong but if the recent reports on were he would have taken the DCEU if allowed I'm convinced he actually dislikes the character.

As for a black Superman I feel everyone overreacting as frankly it's very unlikely to happen but if it does...

It is also worthy to note that representation and social commentary aren't the only areas of exploration afforded to a Black Superman, as all aspects of Black culture could and should be utilized to produce a full-bodied character not limited to trite tropes. How do his notions of serving Earth change when raised as a Black man in a systemically racist country? Does he see vigilantes as a welcome alternative to perpetual over-policing, or does he forsake his community to become a hero for every man (aka white men)? These are the questions a non-marginalized hero could never explore onscreen, and should be the driving force of Superman's internal narrative, not overdone stereotypes. (The only trope I will tolerate is a short scene where Superman jokes that he can mask his identity with a simple pair of glasses because all Black people look the same, followed by a wink from a random Daily Planet security guard in on the joke.)

The premise of a Black Superman fighting a canon villain to save society without mention of his thoughts on whether this society is worth saving would fail on all fronts of the story. If DC wants a simple story, stick with a simple character: a white man who has no reservations about serving his country, because when he really thinks about it, the country has always done the same for him.

I have zero problem with this. After all if you're going to make Superman an African American it only makes sense that the movie explores the most likely life he would have led and how differently it would shape him. If you're looking for a Superman movie to explore serious themes you got one right there.

[Slade]

Ohh boy....:roll:

[Leo656]

Boy, that's just one big giant bad take, right there. :lol: But whatever. "Opinions".

- I think if a person wants to sound like they're making an intelligent point they could start by finding out the difference between "murder" and "manslaughter", just for one thing. :trazz: Seriously, these things matter a whole bunch, and whenever I hear anyone (and there are a lot of them) bang on about "HE MURDERED ZOD!", I have to just sigh and accept that the person speaking is an ignorant person trying to sound smart, and I confess I mostly just dismiss the rest of their point because if they can't even get THAT right... well....

Despite the fact that we generally agree on nothing, I'd like to think that you're better than the usual nitwits who try and belabor the point about how awful and terrible and whatever that scene was supposed to be. So if you're going to try and make that point, I implore you to at least use the right words in doing so.

- But yeah, as is usually the case I strongly disagree with just about everything you said. Most definitely that "MoS wasn't a good movie". That's just complete nonsense. :lol: Maybe it wasn't what you wanted, but to say it's not a good movie goes beyond "opinion" into something else entirely. It's only a "bad movie" to people who think they know the Superman character a lot better than they actually do. Evidence to this stands by the fact that most people who never saw/never cared about the Reeve movies, and/or only saw the character for the first time in MoS, generally say that it is indeed a very good movie. The only "criticism" it gets is from people who swear it somehow mishandled the character, based on their own preconceived notions and biases, and those people are quite simply incorrect. They can have their opinion, their opinion is still not accurate and based on inherent biases. People who HAVE no such biases all generally like the film. There are countless people who openly state that that movie is what made them care about Superman to begin with. I don't think a "bad movie" has such power, quite frankly.

- And yes, most people who hated it ARE just Donner/Reeve acolytes, if you actually pay any attention to the Superman fanbase and the things they actually say. They hold up that movie as if it were The Last Word (rather than the first) on the character, and any interpretation that veers away from it is "wrong". That's not me saying that, that's Those People saying that. And it is a very asinine opinion to have, but it doesn't stop those people from saying it, over and over and over again.

- The one thing you got right was that MoS was a rather overtly Objectivist take on the material... but that's because ALL super-hero stories are inherently Objectivist. They ALL rely on the notion that there are "special people" who exist to show the "normals" how to better behave, and that the world only functions properly when you unshackle these "Special People" and let them do their thing, not try and handcuff them and force them to conform to the standards of the common rabble. Yes, we do see a lot of that in Snyder's movies, but that's a feature, not a bug. Snyder simply understands that ALL super-heroes are inherently Objectivist and isn't shy about shining a light on it. Case in point, "The Battle of Smallville" where at every turn, the Army's interference only makes the situation worse whereas Superman more or less has things under control against Faora and Nam-Ek until he has to keep stopping to clean up whatever mess the soldiers are making. Like sure, they were only doing their job, but the scene also sends the message of "Boy, maybe things would be alright if people just got out of Superman's way and let him Be Superman" (which is also the entire point of BvS, as well, only illustrated to much larger degree).

The entire concept of super-heroes is Objectivist. They are the "special ones" who get to operate outside the laws of society because we the audience know and understand that they're stronger, faster, smarter, and more noble than we are. What keeps them (and Superman specifically) heroic, however, is their humility, the fact that THEY don't see themselves as inherently all that much better than anyone else. They are, in their minds, "Just trying to do the right thing", whereas a character like Lex Luthor openly sees himself as superior, and that's why he's the villain. But if Batman (the most openly Objectivist of all the super-heroes in both thought and deed) were real? We'd all want him locked up for being a lunatic vigilante. We only cheer for him as a fictional character because we see his thought balloons, and are privy to his thoughts and motivations. We know he's inherently selfless, and so we cheer for him despite the fact that his entire raison d'etre is because "I get to do this job because I'm better than everyone else." Which is pretty bluntly Objectivist.

But yeah, there's nothing wrong with a super-hero story leaning into those themes so long as the heroic characters maintain their humility. By definition, the idea that people are allowed to act outside the law without any sanction because they're "better" IS an Objectivist idea. All Snyder did was rip away any veneer to the contrary. But anyone who would claim that Objectivism and super-heroes have nothing in common simply doesn't pay any attention.

- And I stand firmly by my point that if people think Snyder's take was "dour and joyless", and if those same people want something more "hopeful and optimistic" from the property... "Oppressed, Black Superman Fighting Systemic Racism" is NOT the way to get there. We'll see, but I don't see any way that happens. I don't see anything "hopeful" or "optimistic" in being beaten over the head with "White people treat Black people bad" for two hours and change. "His disguise only works because white people can't tell black people apart." :lol: Such intelligent and witty social commentary that would be. :roll: Give me a break.

[Coola Yagami]

I actually enjoyed Man of Steel, it's just I strongly feel we really REALLY needed a Man of Steel 2 before all this crossover business. IMO the world barely knew Superman so no one, including the audience should care he dies in BVS. That whole scene in Justice League where he was talking to some kids... ********. At that point kids wouldn't know or care who Superman is, let alone know he's this big hero they're supposed to look up to.

If we were to compare this to the Dark Knight Trilogy where BB was his beginning, TDK was his prime and TDKR is his retirement, it feels like we're missing an entire movie between MoS and BVS. It's like if they only made BB and TDRK. We really needed that movie in between where Superman saved the world from idk... Braniac, Metallo, Parasite, someone before we just up and killed him off.

[Leo656]

I can see why people feel that way, but I don't think it's all that necessary. The story they chose to tell was that only his sacrifice to save a world that hated and feared him would ever make those people accept him as a hero, which makes perfect sense in context. Before that, for all anyone in that world knew he was just another alien invader like Zod, and he was a very polarizing figure with some people hailing him as a hero and others (like Batman initially) only seeing him as a loose cannon or villain-in-waiting.

The only way to decisively prove that he was none of those things was to make the ultimate sacrifice. Because if he wasn't as pure and goodly as he'd claimed then he wouldn't have so readily given his life for the greater good. The fact that his sacrifice would be what ultimately won his detractors over makes perfect storyline sense. And I think it would have been a bit diluted if he'd been more accepted or popular before that. Like yeah, he could have stopped some alien but would that have really been enough to change those people's minds? I'm not so sure. People would still have doubts. Giving his life to save the world, though? There's no longer any argument about whether or not his motives were pure or altruistic.

I mean look at it like this; Jesus wasn't "JESUS" until he went up on the cross; before that he was just a polarizing figure who some saw as the New Messiah and others saw as a heretic. And the films have always framed Superman's story as a Jesus metaphor going back to the first Donner film. Taking that bit of authorial intent into account, it all makes perfect sense. It's all about the context.

Again, I get why some people would have rather done it the other way, but I disagree that it was fundamentally necessary, and I think it actually does work better for the way they were trying to tell the story.

[Prowler]

I don't really know much about superhero stuff in general and I don't normally watch superhero movies either. I haven't watched any of all the 500 billion movies that Marvel had pumped out in the last several years.

I watched Man of Steel because I had heard very good things about it, even though the movie had some detractors as well. But you gotta know how to filter what you read and hear about things to determine whether it's worth checking out or not. And my gut instinct told me MoS was worth watching.

And I don't regret my decision one bit. I thought it was a pretty well made movie. Leo656 and possibly other users already stated all the reasons why it's a great movie, so I'm not gonna bother listing those reasons again.

[Andrew NDB]

Well, there is the whole "Truth, justice, and the American way" thing that everyone in charge has been trying to forcibly downplay since Singer had his rapey little fingers on Superman.

[Leo656]

To be fair, a lot of that was kinda shoehorned in during WWII to sell war bonds. He was never an uber-patriotic character before that. Then the live-action George Reeves show popularized it but I'd argue that it's not the be-all end-all. "The American Way" is a very vague term, anyway. I know what it's supposed to mean in relationship to Superman, but to be fair it's undeniable that a lot of people have very conflicting opinions about what "The American Way" really means.

I get that it's his catchphrase by default, but... he's always stood For Everyone and he's not beholden to a flag. I'm fine with the phrase being used but I don't really complain if it's missing, either.

Come to think about it... it was always a bit problematic of a phrase, even in its inception. I mean, if we're being completely honest, back in WWII it could be argued that "The American Way" meant "Ignore atrocities on a global scale until they affect you personally, at which point you do get involved but in victory you take all the credit despite the fact you had lots of help." And that's when the phrase first became linked with Superman. So yeah, always something of a questionable message from the beginning.

I'm fairly patriotic so I don't take any specific issue with the phrase, but playing Devil's Advocate I can see why it would annoy or upset some people. Ultimately, the ideals Superman represents are greater than the shifting morality of any one country anyway.

[Coola Yagami]

To be fair, a lot of that was kinda shoehorned in during WWII to sell war bonds. He was never an uber-patriotic character before that. Then the live-action George Reeves show popularized it but I'd argue that it's not the be-all end-all. "The American Way" is a very vague term, anyway. I know what it's supposed to mean in relationship to Superman, but to be fair it's undeniable that a lot of people have very conflicting opinions about what "The American Way" really means.

I get that it's his catchphrase by default, but... he's always stood For Everyone and he's not beholden to a flag. I'm fine with the phrase being used but I don't really complain if it's missing, either.

Come to think about it... it was always a bit problematic of a phrase, even in its inception. I mean, if we're being completely honest, back in WWII it could be argued that "The American Way" meant "Ignore atrocities on a global scale until they affect you personally, at which point you do get involved but in victory you take all the credit despite the fact you had lots of help." And that's when the phrase first became linked with Superman. So yeah, always something of a questionable message from the beginning.

I'm fairly patriotic so I don't take any specific issue with the phrase, but playing Devil's Advocate I can see why it would annoy or upset some people. Ultimately, the ideals Superman represents are greater than the shifting morality of any one country anyway.

Plus you really... REALLY don't want to know what 'the American way' is nowadays. No way Superman, or Captain America for that matter would stand for the ****ed up mess we represent nowadays.

[Andrew NDB]

No way Superman, or Captain America for that matter would stand for the ****ed up mess we represent nowadays.

Since the latest election? Yeah, I suppose so. "The American way" is now to hate America.

[oldmanwinters]

Well, there is the whole "Truth, justice, and the American way" thing that everyone in charge has been trying to forcibly downplay since Singer had his rapey little fingers on Superman.

Dang, until now I hadn't even thought about the creepy moment of Superman spying on his ill-legit son at night being exponentially creepier on account of the director's own history.

[Coola Yagami]

Since the latest election? Yeah, I suppose so. "The American way" is now to hate America.

Oh it's been like that since 2016. Obviously before that, but it's gotten worse since then.

[Galactus]

I post on many boards that discuss comic books and comic book movies and converse with many big Superman fans and maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but I've never gotten the impression that Man of Steel is that popular. Maybe it's observational bias but frankly the idea that the movie is held up as the holy grail or even that good within the Superman fan community seems to be more than a little overstated.

I consider myself a fan of the character (although not a devoted one) and while I do like the '78 movie and it's sequel it's not really what I want to see from a modern Superman movie. I've yet to speak to anyone who wants that. Not liking Snyder's take on Superman doesn't mean you want cheesy, happy go lucky Donner movie anymore than not liking any of the newer Batman movies means you want the Adam West version back.

Since we agree on barely anything it wont surprise you when I say that I disagree that superheroes are inherently objectivist concepts. Conceptually you can argue that most comic book superheroes are way too selfless to be described as such, most work within the system of laws some even with governments and law enforcement and usually what makes them 'better' than regular folk is usually a complete accident. A radioactive spider bite, an alien crash lands on earth and gives you a magic ring, an infusion of mongoose blood. Even Superman who is naturally better than humans only gets to be so because his father was a pre-eminent scientist of dying world. You can re-imagine all these superheroes with an objectivist lens but I'm not sure Superman was quite the right choice to do it.

For my money Snyder handled Clark Kent/Superman well enough. It's the world and situations he put him in that were botched. That's why I put so much emphasis on that scene were he kills Zod. I have little issue with Superman using lethal force, Golden Age Supes did it all the time and even modern does it very grudgingly but from a creative stand point if you're going to contrive a situation were a lot of thematic weight rests on his decision whether to kill Zod or not...and other than that scream nothing about Superman's character really changes due to his decision.

The nice interpretation is that the character is too humble to act like a super powered Mr A but if you strip it down the point of Man of Steel is Superman should be that but wont unless pushed to his absolute limit and will never change. That just doesn't sound like a very satisfying message. Like I said I used to think that Snyder likes Superman but thinks he's misguided but all this stuff about Bruce and Lois and de-brainwashed Clark having to raise their child after Batman saves the world seriously has me questioning that. I don't know if I want a black Superman tackling racial injustice but it's certainly a more interesting and no more un-Superman than what Snyder had planned.

[Andrew NDB]

So it looks like the new Superman movie writer, Ta-Nehisi Paul Coates, is working on Captain America comics and now did a big SJW hit job on Jordan Peterson... making him into the Red Skull/a nazi, basically:

https://variety.com/2021/digital/news/jordan-peterson-red-skull-ideologies-ta-nehisi-coates-captain-america-1234945126/

[oldmanwinters]

Hard to believe there are NINE volumes of Captain America. Seems like that series gets re-launched every 5 years or so.

[Sumac]

So it looks like the new Superman movie writer, Ta-Nehisi Paul Coates, is working on Captain America comics and now did a big SJW hit job on Jordan Peterson... making him into the Red Skull/a nazi, basically:

https://variety.com/2021/digital/news/jordan-peterson-red-skull-ideologies-ta-nehisi-coates-captain-america-1234945126/
He is a bit too late - Peterson is not much relevant today anymore.
But whatever makes him feel better, I guess.

[ZariusTwo]

So it looks like the new Superman movie writer, Ta-Nehisi Paul Coates, is working on Captain America comics and now did a big SJW hit job on Jordan Peterson... making him into the Red Skull/a nazi, basically:

https://variety.com/2021/digital/news/jordan-peterson-red-skull-ideologies-ta-nehisi-coates-captain-america-1234945126/

He's been writing Captain America since 2018, shortly after Waid had a fun time tidying up the mess left by Secret Empire, only for Coates to tackle some of it's aftermath and tell yet another story of Cap trying to earn back the trust of a a disillusioned American populace, only to be overwhelmed by the rise of alt-right propaganda.

[Coola Yagami]

Guess some people find the harsh truths that Peterson spits out very hard to swallow.


Also the thought of supervillain Red Skull being some sort of podcast youtuber or whatever is just so incredibly stupid, he might as well be running around stealing kids' homework like the Joker.

[Sumac]

Funny thing, I don't really who are they aiming this **** at?
I don't think a lot of teenagers reading those books and those who do, most likely either hardcore fans, who don't care about propaganda or wokeys, who are already brainwashed.

[Andrew NDB]

He is a bit too late - Peterson is not much relevant today anymore.
But whatever makes him feel better, I guess.

I wouldn't say he isn't relevant anymore... but yeah, 2 years ago before his "break" probably would have been the right time.