Did people not like the change?

[Yabuturtle]

I know that sometimes I think people just didn't like the change, whether the episodes were actually good or not. Interestingly there is the 1987 and 2003 cartoons that went through certain phases. The 87 cartoon started off goofy and became more serious while the 03 cartoon started serious and became goofier.

I never really thought the Red Sky season was that bad. Things changed, the tone changed and Dregg was the main villain most of the time but that doesn't mean it was bad. After all, Shredder and Krang were the main villain for 8 seasons, so I don't see why Dregg could not be given some spot light. But maybe people just wanted a definitive end with Shredder and Krang and didn't mind Dregg, they just didn't want him to be the main villain. I don't even know why some disliked Carter. I never thought he was bad or annoying and he had some interesting character development.

The Turtles mutating was not liked and I could understand why, but in most of the red sky episodes, they didn't mutate anyway. Only for a few episodes. Some I feel just dislike it because it wasn't the original. Like with Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers.

I don't understand it. Some will complain the turtles are too goofy and need to be more serious and when they do, they complain. Or when they complained in the 03 cartoon, saying they were not like the original 87 Turtles enough, and when they became goofier, people still complained. But I guess there's no pleasing some people. I was just wondering if anyone here noticed the same thing.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

When change is organic or natural, it's good. But when they change things drastically to try to revive flagging interest, the results are often suspect. And in the case of TMNT, usually ill-received.

Exhibit A: The Red Sky seasons
Exhibit B: The Ninja Tribunal
Exhibit C: Fast Forward
Exhibit D: Back to the Sewers

Not sure if the Season 4 space stuff with Nick counts yet or not... time and the duration of the show's remainder will tell, I suppose.

[TigerClaw]

I know that sometimes I think people just didn't like the change, whether the episodes were actually good or not. Interestingly there is the 1987 and 2003 cartoons that went through certain phases. The 87 cartoon started off goofy and became more serious while the 03 cartoon started serious and became goofier.

I never really thought the Red Sky season was that bad. Things changed, the tone changed and Dregg was the main villain most of the time but that doesn't mean it was bad. After all, Shredder and Krang were the main villain for 8 seasons, so I don't see why Dregg could not be given some spot light. But maybe people just wanted a definitive end with Shredder and Krang and didn't mind Dregg, they just didn't want him to be the main villain. I don't even know why some disliked Carter. I never thought he was bad or annoying and he had some interesting character development.

The Turtles mutating was not liked and I could understand why, but in most of the red sky episodes, they didn't mutate anyway. Only for a few episodes. Some I feel just dislike it because it wasn't the original. Like with Fast Forward and Back to the Sewers.

I don't understand it. Some will complain the turtles are too goofy and need to be more serious and when they do, they complain. Or when they complained in the 03 cartoon, saying they were not like the original 87 Turtles enough, and when they became goofier, people still complained. But I guess there's no pleasing some people. I was just wondering if anyone here noticed the same thing.
The change never really bothered me, the core things about that show always remained the same.

The changes that happened with the Fred Wolf series in its final season, was them trying to come up with some new ideas for the series, for a show that lasted for 10 seasons, they had to come up with some new fresh stuff, by introducing a new villain and not repeat the same tropes all over again.

[ToTheNines]

Red Sky was a pitiful, blatant attempt to be Timm's Batman.

Ninja Tribunal, FF, BTTS and the Nick space arc were all done at the behest of Playmates because merch.

[ABrown]

I enjoyed both shows before and after the change in tone. I like the earlier lighter episodes of the original cartoon, and enjoyed the darker toned "red sky" era. Similarly, I liked the more serious seasons 1-5 of the 4Kids series. And I enjoyed the lighter Fast Forward season. I didn't really enjoy the Back To The Sewer season though. I found it to be kinda boring. I would've preferred that they had just done a second Fast Forward season.

[snake]

I hate the red sky seasons simply because of the way they look and how they're written. It's like all the fun was sucked out of the show in an attempt to be as bland as possible.

[Yabuturtle]

I hate the red sky seasons simply because of the way they look and how they're written. It's like all the fun was sucked out of the show in an attempt to be as bland as possible.

I don't really understand that. It still kept a lot of humor actually. It did not have the slapstick but it still had funny jokes and even some 4th wall ones. It had much better action and better written characters like Megavolt and Chronos who actually had backstories. I found it to be improved in a lot of ways. It had a few plot holes but I don't think it's that bad. Plus the Red Sky theme is the best tmnt intro theme out there.

[ToTheNines]

I hate the red sky seasons simply because of the way they look and how they're written. It's like all the fun was sucked out of the show in an attempt to be as bland as possible.

And then it randomly tries to be fun from time to time and it's just awkward.

[CyberCubed]

The red sky seasons are excellent. They're roughly on par with most mid 90's cartoons not named B:TAS.

By the end of Season 7 the show had been going on for 7 years in the same format. It was time for a change.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I liked Red Sky alot while Fastforward and Btts kind of left me dissapointed.

I found the darker and more apocalyptic setting fitting for ending the show, the only thing which I think should've not changed was the design of the turtles,

[snake]

The red sky seasons are excellent. They're roughly on par with most mid 90's cartoons not named B:TAS.

By the end of Season 7 the show had been going on for 7 years in the same format. It was time for a change.

Shut up, Cubed

[Utrommaniac]

I tried to watch Red Sky and I just found the tone shift to be too much. And the coloration was unpleasant on the eyes as well.
Once Krang and Shredder were out of the picture, I was done. As I was watching it, I was hoping to see how they would be getting by without the Technodrome.

Dregg and his assistants taking over was something of this for me
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8042/7977466155_5ffbc3facf.jpg

[CyberCubed]

It was superb. I think I was only 10-11 years old when Red sky happened, so as a kid just about to enter my teen years I immediately took to the darker tone and more action.

Fun fact: The 2k3 series came out when I was 17. And as a 17 year old that series also gave me exactly what I wanted at that age.

[CyberCubed]

Once Krang and Shredder were out of the picture, I was done. As I was watching it, I was hoping to see how they would be getting by without the Technodrome.

Well Shredder (and Krang) are eventually replaced in every TMNT universe anyway, so its not too much a surprise.

[Powder]

Red Sky's fine with me. Interesting character designs, some cool plots (love that Battle Nexus-esque episode), great theme song. Dug the mutations a lot, Dregg was a good villain. It's fine. A few of the new villains are lame as hell (Chronos comes to mind) but one episode I can forgive.

[Yabuturtle]

Odd, I found Chronos to be interesting. And a villain that the Turtles unintentionally created, too.

The most interesting thing is that in the red sky season they actually did something different with it. Dregg was trying to act like a good guy, and almost everyone believed it, which made it harder for the Turtles to stop them. Everyone knew Shredder and Krang were evil but people thought Dregg was really good until he was exposed. One of the more interesting and darker episodes was Carter the Enforcer where it showed a future where Dregg won. It was like Shredderville, except it was darker and it wasn't a dream.

I think some people are just nitpicky about change and just want to pick it apart, whether the change is good or not. If the Turtles are goofy, they want them to be serious and then they complain. If they are serious and they want them to be goofy, they still complain.

[Powder]

Good in concept, yeah, just didn't care for his design/execution.

[ToTheNines]

Fun fact: The 2k3 series came out when I was 17. And as a 17 year old that series also gave me exactly what I wanted at that age.

Gotta say... not that fun of a fact.

[Coola Yagami]

Not sure if the Season 4 space stuff with Nick counts yet or not... time and the duration of the show's remainder will tell, I suppose.

Luckily the Turtles are back in New York and continuing their rivalry with the Foot. And unlike Back to the Sewers that also brought the Turtles back to the present day and tried to get back into the Purple Dragons/Foot stuff, it just wasn't the same and was a pale imitation of earlier seasons.

Here, the series seems to get right back into the swing of things and making it more interesting with Karai and Shinigami.

Yes I know the Turtles are more than just the Foot, but in Mirage comics and other incarnations the Foot is basically just Shreder, the Elite and a bunch of nameless soldiers, with the occassional noteable henchman or two.

Here we got the Foot involving most of the major evil characters, Chris and Xever, Bebop and Rocksteady, Baxter, Tiger Claw, Hun, now Karai and Shinigami have their own faction of Foot. It's a lot of cool characters to miss out on because you ship the characters elsewhere for half a season. That's why Fast Forward should have been a 2 or 5 parter but not an entire damn season where all of the supporting cast is gone for so long. In a sense, we never got to see them ever again.. just their pale imitations in Back to the Sewers.

Luckily the Nick show didn't go overboard with the woods and outer space and brought them back to their roots.

[Ninjinister]

The damnable thing is that these massive change seasons were to sell toys that never existed.

Red Sky? None of the major (or any?) characters received figures
Lost Season? Nothing outside of the Mystic Turtles, which actually came out closer to their appearance in Mutant Nightmare.
Fast Forward? This one came the furthest... only about half of the planned figures got cut.
Back to the Sewer? Nothing again.

At least Fast Forward's second half of figs, and Back to the Sewer had stuff publicly shown, though. Red Sky and Lost Season didn't have shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiznit.

[Coola Yagami]

Another thing... Red Sky was just... so-so. Didn't like the mutations and how they forced Carter into it. Maybe if he was a recurring character but not full time cast member. Don't like that all the other villains were gone. Dregg might have been more tolerable if we had a break and had Baxter, Slash and Leatherhead once in a while.

The deal was, maybe they had a limited budget or maybe they were so used to slapstick that they didn't know how to choreograph an actual fight scene... but the show could have used actual action, especially if they wanted to compete with Batman's fist fights. Even though there were less jokes and less stupid plots, the show was still full of laser guns and big cartoony goofy-ass monsters. And all Raph would do was just toss his sais. Like... that's ALL. HE. WOULD. EVER. DO.

I think if they wanted to breathe new life into it, an actual good sword fight with Shredder that would look like he actually wanted to kill them would have done wonders for the show. And you're gonna show clips of the live action movie in the theme song and still rely on half-assed fighting in the actual show? C'mon....

[ABrown]

Fun fact: The 2k3 series came out when I was 17. And as a 17 year old that series also gave me exactly what I wanted at that age.

Interesting. I would've thought that "exactly what 17 year old you wanted" would've been Ashley Scott as Huntress on Birds of Prey.

Gotta say... not that fun of a fact.

Ha. Sounds like Penny's reaction to one of Sheldon's fun facts.

[Yabuturtle]

Another thing... Red Sky was just... so-so. Didn't like the mutations and how they forced Carter into it. Maybe if he was a recurring character but not full time cast member. Don't like that all the other villains were gone. Dregg might have been more tolerable if we had a break and had Baxter, Slash and Leatherhead once in a while.

The deal was, maybe they had a limited budget or maybe they were so used to slapstick that they didn't know how to choreograph an actual fight scene... but the show could have used actual action, especially if they wanted to compete with Batman's fist fights. Even though there were less jokes and less stupid plots, the show was still full of laser guns and big cartoony goofy-ass monsters. And all Raph would do was just toss his sais. Like... that's ALL. HE. WOULD. EVER. DO.

I think if they wanted to breathe new life into it, an actual good sword fight with Shredder that would look like he actually wanted to kill them would have done wonders for the show. And you're gonna show clips of the live action movie in the theme song and still rely on half-assed fighting in the actual show? C'mon....

I don't mind new characters showing up as long as they are good. Casey Jones was a riot and was entertaining but he did not have much of a personality in the 80s cartoon. Carter started off with someone who wanted to learn more, techniques and sciences and so forth. It took him a while to adjust, since he was more reckless and his mutated form started getting out of hand at first but eventually he could control it. And he would debate on whether he should cure his mutation or not. They did have sword fights. Even in the first episode it showed Leo and Shredder dueling a couple times.

Raph would use his sais if he was up against robots, but he tossed his sais around anyway pre red sky and post redy sky.

Some say Dregg was good but should not have been the main villain. Even though I think Dregg was a great villain and the only villain to convince the people of Earth that he was a good guy. I do think there should have been a more climatic fight with Shredder and Krang instead of just dumping them into Dimension X again.

Krang should have brought his robot body. They never once explained what happened to it. We knew it was working in Shredder Triumphant and they he just used his bubble walker for the rest of the show. I know his robot body was somewhat damaged, but after he got Beserko's resources he should have been able to repair it a little. We could have seen some fight scenes with Krang and his android body.

[Coola Yagami]

They did have sword fights. Even in the first episode it showed Leo and Shredder dueling a couple times..

Yeah but I mean like... a good sword fight. Like I said they were trying to compete with batman the animated series. They really needed to step up their game in the fighting department.

[Yabuturtle]

Yeah but I mean like... a good sword fight. Like I said they were trying to compete with batman the animated series. They really needed to step up their game in the fighting department.

Well Batman was well animated so the fights would look more impressive. Same with Gargoyles. I do kind of wonder why the animation on TMNT wasn't as good, even though at the time they were everywhere and were more popular than Batman and Gargoyles.

[CyberCubed]

Interesting. I would've thought that "exactly what 17 year old you wanted" would've been Ashley Scott as Huntress on Birds of Prey. .

When I was 17 years old, Saturday morning cartoons were my top priority.

[nellyp]

When I was 17 years old, Saturday morning cartoons were my top priority.

I am not sure if this explains a lot or just raises further questions...better we don't tumble down this rabbit hole though I think.

[Utrommaniac]

I was still enjoying cartoons when I was 17. Granted, they were all things I missed growing up and I was finally able to see them on the internet. And...that's pretty much the only place I ever watched them.

[CyberCubed]

I am not sure if this explains a lot or just raises further questions...better we don't tumble down this rabbit hole though I think.

I spent my entire 20's watching cartoons and playing videogames too. I wonder if my 30's will be the same, so far its not much different.

[sdp]

By the time of the red sky season the turtles were pretty much dead, it's not that the Red Sky season wasn't liked, it was the turtles in general people were tired of. Another season like the previous ones would've been as much if not more of a ratings killer than Red Sky. All shows that change the formula is for this reason and many blame the show failing on that but it's more of a reaction to seeing a show die and trying to help it.

Same with 4Kids, the show was failing so Playmates who was the only one doing decent got more say in what they wanted, it's not that they killed it, in fact after the 2007 movie the ratings picked up during Fast Forward so while it's not liked it helped the show. Problem is they took too long for the next season and the 2007 movie cash-in was long gone when BTTS aired so it was sent to die.

Watching Red Sky for the first time (as an adult though I did watch a few as a teen when the first season came out on DVD that had a few red sky episodes), it really depends on the season, one of them (I think the first Dregg season) is really boring, the last season is more exciting, and the last season before Dregg which is also a "red sky" season is average, it tries to be "moody" and grim like other shows at the time but it's dull. I'm ok with the change though, they got plenty of "original" episodes so trying something new was fine.

As far as 2k3, I remember really liking FF's first "half season" but I wasn't a regular viewer of the show so the change wasn't as drastic, I had only seen most of S4 and a little of the others. The second time I watched FF I found it terrible but maybe it doesn't do as well after watching all those great prior seasons. I remember thinking BBTS was fine but that isn't a popular opinion.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Red Sky was a pitiful, blatant attempt to be Timm's Batman.

Ninja Tribunal, FF, BTTS and the Nick space arc were all done at the behest of Playmates because merch.

Yep, that's how I see it.

[sdp]

I stopped liking cartoons around 13 or so but around 17 I started to like cartoons again because of Teen Titans and I thought I only liked that show since it mixed action with comedy, little did I know it spiraled into me becoming a big fan of animation. It definitely died down again around the time I was 24 though but even if I don't watch as many cartoons now I still watch them, I'm just more of a "I'll watch what I like" instead of only liking animated shows.

Definitely never a priority but when I got back to cartoons I did make the effort to wake up on Saturdays to catch the SatAM blocks, however since I was out till late at night on Friday it was often difficult :lol:

[Wildcat]

I don't remember the Red Sky change and don't have all of the OT DVDs so I can't comment on that.

My problem with FF/BttS was that now super futuristic technology was a thing. Especially going back to current day New York. It brings in too many what-if, why-not and paradox scenarios.

Being of lighter tone isn't so bad but for me having a huge shift in general life turned it too much into a sci-fi, space age cartoon.

Nick Space arc was fine because it didn't alter their normal life. Super technology didn't takeover the focus.

[CyberCubed]

Threads like this always make me wonder if people don't get what TMNT is about. TMNT is not just the Turtles in New York facing Shredder/the Foot 90% of the time.

The Turtles can go into the future, into space, go outside of New York to Northampton, Europe, Asia, etc....and its all fine. You can do anything with TMNT.

[Wildcat]

Threads like this always make me wonder if people don't get what TMNT is about. TMNT is not just the Turtles in New York facing Shredder/the Foot 90% of the time.

The Turtles can go into the future, into space, go outside of New York to Northampton, Europe, Asia, etc....and its all fine. You can do anything with TMNT.I never said I was against other things. I said I didn't like the shift in focus to space age technology.

FF/BttS was a space age cartoon with the Turtles. That's exactly what it was once they travelled to the future and back. If it had just been a special arc it wouldn't have bothered me.

[Wesley]

It's an interesting contrast reflecting their eras how the 1987 cartoon went from being lighthearted to somewhat serious and the 2003 cartoon went from being serious to somewhat lighthearted.

I liked the Red Sky seasons, though I think maybe they should have been a separate entity to the earlier, goofier seasons due to the drastic change in tone. My signature quote is taken from one of the episodes.

I've only watched some episodes of Fast Forward, but I didn't care much for it. The change in tone was too drastic for my tastes. It was still fun to watch, though.

I watched Back to the Sewers and thought it was decent, better than Fast Forward anyway.

[The-Shredder]

The damnable thing is that these massive change seasons were to sell toys that never existed.

Red Sky? None of the major (or any?) characters received figures
Lost Season? Nothing outside of the Mystic Turtles, which actually came out closer to their appearance in Mutant Nightmare.
Fast Forward? This one came the furthest... only about half of the planned figures got cut.
Back to the Sewer? Nothing again.


Actually, NKOK did release several RC toys based on Back to the Sewer. I have a Leonardo ATV Rider, and it comes with a cool backdrop of cyberspace from the show. However, the build quality isn't very good, but I consider it to be a nice novelty from when the 4Kids show was coming to an end.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41jCBhoZTuL.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/XZsAAOSwBahU2sQX/s-l225.jpg

[snake]

The damnable thing is that these massive change seasons were to sell toys that never existed.

Red Sky? None of the major (or any?) characters received figures
Lost Season? Nothing outside of the Mystic Turtles, which actually came out closer to their appearance in Mutant Nightmare.
Fast Forward? This one came the furthest... only about half of the planned figures got cut.
Back to the Sewer? Nothing again.

At least Fast Forward's second half of figs, and Back to the Sewer had stuff publicly shown, though. Red Sky and Lost Season didn't have shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiznit.

I feel you. I wish people would research if the thing they're claiming "only existed to sell toys" actually had toys made.

Idiots saying that Darth Maul in Clone Wars was a huge toy commercial when he got ONE figure in a target exclusive multipack

[Powder]

Actually, NKOK did release several RC toys based on Back to the Sewer. I have a Leonardo ATV Rider, and it comes with a cool backdrop of cyberspace from the show. However, the build quality isn't very good, but I consider it to be a nice novelty from when the 4Kids show was coming to an end.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41jCBhoZTuL.jpg

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/XZsAAOSwBahU2sQX/s-l225.jpg

It may be branded BTTS but it's obviously a TMNT sculpt. Doesn't count.

Aaand if anyone wants that, I have one for sale. :tlol:

[oldmanwinters]

Folks 'round these forums were giddy as a schoolgirl when we finally got the Ninja Tribunal season, presented by 4Kids as a "Lost Episodes" feature. For fans who disliked the Fast Forward season, it was expected to be a return to form to designs and storylines fans had invested in through the first four seasons.

Now at the end of the day, I thought it was mostly all-together terrible, but that's just me.

[thundermaster612]

2k3's many changes didn't bother me. Red Sky sometimes irks me because it was such a drastic change from the other tone but its still good with me.

[CyberCubed]

Ninja Tribunal arc is great. Fast Forward has some great episodes, but a lot of average or poor episodes. BTTS has at least 6 episodes I really like.

[pferreira]

The problem I had with the Red Sky era was that they took out the fun and all the recurring characters from the show. There were too many changes too soon.