Turtles wear red masks again [Archive]

Andrew NDB

09-09-2016, 12:49 PM

But no, no mainstream TMNT story will ever have all four Turtles wearing red masks.

I wouldn't rule it out entirely. But certainly no time in the foreseeable future.

For in story reasons... Maybe the hue would look weird, but imagine if Splinter had died and each of the guys all made headbands out of a piece of his kimono. Would put an extra emotional spin on the motif beyond the clan unity.

Though personally, if the turtles needed to wear a single color, I'd rather it be black.

It'd be OK with that. In my old screenplay for "Ninja Turtles" (4), when Splinter got killed I had them shuck their colored bandannas and they all put on black ones.

Wait for Andrew to see this topic. He'll give you an hour and a half rant why red bandana's are natural and the colors make them metrosexuals.

But they do. There is no story-based reason for them to wear multi-colored bandannas beyond "I wanna be different!" or "I wanna make a fashion statement!" or "My favorite color is BLUE and I'm gonna wear it and show the world, damn it!" None of which seem in line with what would be the reasoning of a ninja trained from basically birth to be an assassin.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-09-2016, 12:56 PM

It'd be OK with that. In my old screenplay for "Ninja Turtles" (4), when Splinter got killed I had them shuck their colored bandannas and they all put on black ones.

So long as you give them their own distinctive silhouettes like in the Nick cartoon, it could work. Though personally, if the turtles needed to wear a single color, I'd rather it be black.

Black? You guys... Who do you think these turtles are, NINJA!? :tlol:

Krutch

09-09-2016, 01:41 PM

Do we really gotta do this (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=30133&page=8) all over again? :lol:

snake

09-09-2016, 01:47 PM

If anything it'll be like IDW where they only were them for the first arc.

Andrew NDB

09-09-2016, 01:47 PM

I have been very disappointed. No one has invoked Crisler's Law (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Crisler%27s%20Law) for like, months. Usually this is a topic that brings it out so let's see.

Utrommaniac

09-09-2016, 01:58 PM

But what I WOULD love to see make a comeback are the Utrom symbols the Turtles were sporting on their plastrons back in Volume 4. That was nifty.
Okay, I love that idea, but I also find it pretty funny that the Utroms couldn't tell them apart by their weapons. Here we have hyper-intelligent aliens who built a god-damn teleporter and practically all look and act identical (a thing I have a lot of problems with and thank IDW for dealing with), but when four turtles set their identities apart with their weaponry, and they don't take the time to set apart the tiny nuances that they should be able to spot, they make them wear symbols on their plastrons.

I could have gone with a joke that the Utroms can tell them apart without their weapons by the slightest little differences that the turtles never really took the time to notice.
"Oh yeah, I know you're Leonardo, you have that weird dent in the left side of your shell"
"...What dent?"
I recon if they're smart enough to tell each other apart in spite of looking incredibly similar, they should be able to spot little differences in every person down to their thumbprint - which is probably how they set each other apart anyway.

Regarding the turtles wearing red masks, I can see them doing it as a stealth tactic. Maybe in an "I am Spartacus!" situation where Raphael is in danger and the others have to protect him. So they all wear red masks and carry sai (but not actually use them for the purposes of distraction), and hope whoever they're dealing with can't pick up their differences in height and body shape.

Powder

09-09-2016, 04:38 PM

The only way it'll happen is if, as others said, they pay homage in a single episode or issue of something, or, if we ever get a Mirage animated DVD feature.

ToTheNines

09-09-2016, 04:53 PM

Damn, good idea! Never happen, but good idea.

Well, Ciro is a Mirage fanboy, so I'm sure he'd like to make it happen. Surely Nick would let go of the the rainbow headbands for ONE episode. And maybe I'm giving Playmates too much credit here, but it presents a variant figure opportunity, no?

As for my specific idea, now that I've looked at it with this in mind, I think Splinter's red would look really cool on the boys. Not to mention it's different enough from Raph's red so as to not make it pointless for him to bother with it.

CyberCubed

09-09-2016, 05:32 PM

I could see a training segment at the dojo with Splinter in the Nick cartoon where all the Turtles wear red bandana's as a training excercize.

The Turtles still look different though in Nick, with Don being tall and thin, Mike being shorter, the crack on Raph's shell, etc....that you would still tell them apart even if they all wore red.

snake

09-09-2016, 07:15 PM

The turtles wearing splinter's clothes as masks would be a great ending. Sucks that the chances of it happening are nearly nonexistant.

Panda_Kahn_fan

09-09-2016, 08:04 PM

Since everyone else is repeating their arguments here, I'll repeat mine, as well;

1.) Ninjas (shinobi) did not have clan colors. Clan colors are not part of Japanese culture, clans identified by clan mon (symbol or crest) colors were worn based on time of year, holiday, auspicious occasion. Clan colors are an aspect of celtic culture (Scottish clans, Irish clans, etc.)

2.) The color bandannas DO make more sense than one uniform color. No ninja clan or group would ever wear a uniform color that would identify them as a member of a distinct group, four ninjas wearing different colors would sow confusion among an enemy that saw or captured one of them. Any ninja clan who all dress in the same colors are a bunch of idiots.

3.) Ninjas have no uniform appearance- ninjitsu was the art of invisibility NOT because of ability to sneak around silently in the shadows (though plenty of that was done if the mission called for it) but the ability to blends in in plain sight, disguised as anyone or anything. That guy in a yukata next to you in the tea shop could be a ninja, and you'd never know it.

4.) Ninjas were not assassins- they were mercenaries, spies and saboteurs for hire. Killing during a mission was a last resort, because a body would draw unwanted attention. Japan had a separate, professional class of assassins, who were hired for killing jobs. Shinobi were called in to assassinate as a last resort, being extremely expensive to obtain, and was usually seen as overkill. In the ninjas heyday in the sengoku, a clan ninja would be lucky if they got one assassination per year, and even two or three kills in all of their missions combined per year. The goal of the ninja was to use his stealth and martial arts to NOT be seen, NOT to fight. A ninja always getting into fights is drawing unnecessary attention to themselves, making said ninja an idiot.

5.) The modern killing machine ninja in black kabuki pajamas who seeks 'revenge for dishonor' is the invention of Frank Miller, and has about as much to do with Japan or shinobi as American super heroes do. Ninja are more like sengoku-era James Bonds, or sengoku era special forces/commandos. The question of wither or not they are heroes should be weighed against that comparison, instead of Miller's orientalist wannabes.

That's is all, proceed with your debate!

ssjup81

09-09-2016, 08:15 PM

I couldn't see it happening in mainstream either. Each turtle now is connected to a color. Flashbacks or origins as to how they received their different color bandanas, yeah, I could see it...like in Archie. If I remember that right, Splinter just got tired of confusing them. lolSince everyone else is repeating their arguments here, I'll repeat mine, as well;

1.) Ninjas (shinobi) did not have clan colors. Clan colors are not part of Japanese culture, clans identified by clan mon (symbol or crest) colors were worn based on time of year, holiday, auspicious occasion. Clan colors are an aspect of celtic culture (Scottish clans, Irish clans, etc.)

2.) The color bandannas DO make more sense than one uniform color. No ninja clan or group would ever wear a uniform color that would identify them as a member of a distinct group, four ninjas wearing different colors would sow confusion among an enemy that saw or captured one of them. Any ninja clan who all dress in the same colors are a bunch of idiots.

3.) Ninjas have no uniform appearance- ninjitsu was the art of invisibility NOT because of ability to sneak around silently in the shadows (though plenty of that was done if the mission called for it) but the ability to blends in in plain sight, disguised as anyone or anything. That guy in a yukata next to you in the tea shop could be a ninja, and you'd never know it.

4.) Ninjas were not assassins- they were mercenaries, spies and saboteurs for hire. Killing during a mission was a last resort, because a body would draw unwanted attention. Japan had a separate, professional class of assassins, who were hired for killing jobs. Shinobi were called in to assassinate as a last resort, being extremely expensive to obtain, and was usually seen as overkill. In the ninjas heyday in the sengoku, a clan ninja would be lucky if they got one assassination per year, and even two or three kills in all of their missions combined per year. The goal of the ninja was to use his stealth and martial arts to NOT be seen, NOT to fight. A ninja always getting into fights is drawing unnecessary attention to themselves, making said ninja an idiot.

5.) The modern killing machine ninja in black kabuki pajamas who seeks 'revenge for dishonor' is the invention of Frank Miller, and has about as much to do with Japan or shinobi as American super heroes do. Ninja are more like sengoku-era James Bonds, or sengoku era special forces/commandos. The question of wither or not they are heroes should be weighed against that comparison, instead of Miller's orientalist wannabes.

That's is all, proceed with your debate!You know, getting down to it, the way the "ninja" are portrayed in the show, with clan uniforms or whatever, makes me think of the Yakuza and how they function for some reason. Ninja are supposed to be hidden and stuff. The Yakuza function in plain site. I know I've come across a Yakuza guy at least once since I've been here.

Powder

09-09-2016, 08:39 PM

imagine if Splinter had died and each of the guys all made headbands out of a piece of his kimono.

http://i68.tinypic.com/w8w7ep.png

ToTheNines

09-09-2016, 08:51 PM

It's beautiful! *sniff*

Bry

09-09-2016, 08:52 PM

Y'know, that shows how well it'd work in a "mainstream" version with the physically-different Nick designs. You can instantly tell them apart even without being colour-coded. Cool.

ToTheNines

09-09-2016, 09:05 PM

I don't even blame the OT for going rainbow, it just sucks that it stuck.

All the live action designs were different enough to warrant all red. 4kids had different head and eye shapes, plus skin tones (FF and beyond had big Raph and shrimp Mikey). Next Mutation, 07 movie, most IDW designs... you see my point.

TurtleGuy

09-09-2016, 09:08 PM

http://i68.tinypic.com/w8w7ep.png

This... looks pretty cool, actually.

And I say this as someone who likes the colored bandanas.

snake

09-09-2016, 09:25 PM

That's great, Powder! Love it.

Ninjinister

09-09-2016, 10:19 PM

F**k red bandanas
F**k different coloured bandanas
F**k black bandanas

Just give me the wrestling costumes, or if you MUST use the bandanas still, the Vision Quest costumes, or something of equal standing.

Prowler

09-09-2016, 10:37 PM

Dude, don't phrase your thread title like that. It's phrased as if it's a statement instead of a question. For a second I thought this was gonna happen. Or maybe I'm just being naïve...

mrmaczaps

09-09-2016, 10:43 PM

I am not sure if any major incarnation has them wearing red masks. But I don't mind. Personally I was never fond of the red masks. In the comic, whether it was black and white or had them wearing red masks, it just makes it more difficult to tell who's who unless they have other features that distinguish them, aside from their weapons. I never thought it was original for them to all wear the same color and look pretty much the same.

I never had much problem telling them apart in the Mirage days even without seeing the weapons... they weren't all drawn exactly the same...

LeotheLateBloomer

09-09-2016, 10:46 PM

My bad, dude. I'd probably feel the same way.:trazz:

Wildcat

09-09-2016, 11:59 PM

For a special something or other its fine but I dont really like it. The colors are distinct and instantly recognizable.

Anyone who says theres no legitimate reason...they're actual characters with separate personalities and emotions. Not mindless fighting machines that need to follow some dress-code.

All red is too generic especially since they really don't wear anything else.

WebLurker

09-10-2016, 01:43 AM

LeotheLateBloomer

09-10-2016, 09:24 AM

http://i68.tinypic.com/w8w7ep.png

Send this to Ciro, now! You should be hired!:tgrin:

mrmaczaps

09-10-2016, 10:00 AM

I don't think it'll happen. The multi-colored masks have become the default trademarks for the characters, as much or even more so than their weapons. The characters just look wrong with out the variation.

That they look wrong without the multicolored duds is your opinion.

A happy medium might be for IDW to do an adult comic and leave those guys wearing red, or null the color and do the book in black and white.

WebLurker

09-10-2016, 10:37 AM

That they look wrong without the multicolored duds is your opinion.

A happy medium might be for IDW to do an adult comic and leave those guys wearing red, or null the color and do the book in black and white.

It is my opinion, true. However, I do think that the masks fall heavily under "Adaption Displacement (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdaptationDisplacement)." Show someone a red-masked Turtle and they'll probably assume it's Raph. Along with the rest of the franchise, I think it's safe to say that the '80s cartoon has pretty much replaced the original comics as the ultimate source material for the franchise. Even stuff that went back to the Mirage comics (like the 2003 cartoon and the current IDW comics kept the '80s masks).

Also, the colored masks allow the characters to be distinguished easily. I've tried reading some of the original comics, it's really hard to do. So, I think there's a practical reason why the change has stuck. It's arguably an improvement.

(As always, this's all IMHO, and your mileage may vary.)

neatoman

09-10-2016, 06:47 PM

While I have no real problem with the color coded masks (they were a step in the right direction in my opinion) I wonder though, are they a somewhat vestigial design coice now? Since the Nick show, the PD movies and some IDW artits have decided to give the Turtles more divergent designs, it seems like the color coded masks could very easily be discarded now.

Shark_Blade

09-10-2016, 08:07 PM

Ew no. It's confusing and shows lack of personality. Let them have their own color.

Powder

09-10-2016, 08:51 PM

Yeah, 'cause, you know, clothes define your personality.

TurtleGuy

09-10-2016, 09:12 PM

Yeah, 'cause, you know, clothes define your personality.

Clothes don't define your personality but your personality can define your clothes.

LeotheLateBloomer

09-10-2016, 09:40 PM

Yeah, 'cause, you know, clothes define your personality.

Well he is the guy that adores the version where they do wear clothes. :lol:

Shark_Blade

09-10-2016, 09:49 PM

Yeah, 'cause, you know, clothes define your personality.To an extent it does. You won't see Batman wearing pink.

Turtles wearing all red is just plain and boring. They're all the same lookwise, that's why I normally skip IDW origin story at the beginning until they get their individualized bandana.

Clothes don't define your personality but your personality can define your clothes.
Sure, try going to town just wearing a thong. Your personality can define your clothes, don't worry.

Prowler

09-10-2016, 10:19 PM

Anyway, I don't particularly care about Mirage's red masks. I mean, it looks cool in some art works, but I don't care enough to see them becoming a rule again.

As for the "boring" thing, well it's not really a mater of that. When it comes to kids cartoons, I guess every turtle wearing a mask of the same colour would confuse children. I was 5-6 years old the first time I saw the FW series and, not being an English speaker and all, had trouble telling apart the Turtles at first. And if you talk to "casuals" and older people that haven't seen the Turtles in years or never were big fans they NEVER seem to accurately guess which Turtle is which. So I guess if they all wore red in the mainstream media, people would be even more confused. Even if they gave each Turtle their own skin tonality. Hell, this one time a guy told me this when I asked him "So, who's your favorite Ninja Turtle?": "I can't pick one. they're all the same. Just like Donald Duck's nephews." I sh*t you not :lol:

mrmaczaps

09-10-2016, 10:48 PM

Well, to each their own. I for one, would love to see them all wear red again. The newer incarnations seem to like a different design for each character anyways and there's also sometimes color coded wraps on their weapons, so it's not like they'd have to abandon the cartoon colors.

Take it a step further, I'd like to see them more often without wearing the masks...

neatoman

09-11-2016, 04:25 AM

To an extent it does. You won't see Batman wearing pink.

This is not an edit

http://www.toonbarn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Pink-Batman.jpg

Shark_Blade

09-11-2016, 08:26 AM

Now that you mentioned it.. I just remembered..

http://i.imgur.com/7fHhLcm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/o7XIwPc.jpg

I wonder which Batman issue that was from..

LeotheLateBloomer

09-12-2016, 06:25 AM

Another reason why Brave and the Bold was awesome! I wish they would have continued that show.

With me being a huge Mirage nut, I'd love to see another version that would have them wear red masks again, whether be a new cartoon, movie, etc.

Donnie

09-12-2016, 03:22 PM

To me, the red bandannas are the single most over-rated thing in all of TMNT history. There, I said it. All about the colored bandannas.

Andrew NDB

09-12-2016, 03:26 PM

To me, the red bandannas are the single most over-rated thing in all of TMNT history. There, I said it. All about the colored bandannas.

I don't see how. If anything, "underrated" as much as they're ignored in 98% of everything TMNT Product™-related.

Powder

09-12-2016, 05:46 PM

To me, the red bandannas are the single most over-rated thing in all of TMNT history. There, I said it. All about the colored bandannas.

Bebop & Rocksteady are overrated.

Most people don't even know about the red bananas, let alone clamor for their return. :trolleye:

WebLurker

09-12-2016, 08:04 PM

Well, to each their own. I for one, would love to see them all wear red again. The newer incarnations seem to like a different design for each character anyways and there's also sometimes color coded wraps on their weapons, so it's not like they'd have to abandon the cartoon colors.

May I ask why the all-red masks are so great? I've never understood that.

Take it a step further, I'd like to see them more often without wearing the masks...

Maybe.

Powder

09-12-2016, 08:09 PM

Take it a step further, I'd like to see them more often without wearing the masks...

Be careful what you wish for!

http://i67.tinypic.com/feqb7n.png

I agree, though. It's always a pleasure to see them in a more casual state.

Tartaruhga Muhtante

09-12-2016, 08:17 PM

Sincerally, i like the coloured bandanas. Gives iddentity to the turtles. REd is cool , but i don't care with the classical color.

Tartaruhga Muhtante

09-12-2016, 08:19 PM

Then now launch me the rocks

ToTheNines

09-12-2016, 08:31 PM

May I ask why the all-red masks are so great? I've never understood that.

They're not there to sell toys to toddlers, for starters.

Andrew NDB

09-12-2016, 08:51 PM

They're not there to sell toys to toddlers, for starters.

And that is literally their genesis.

Bry

09-12-2016, 09:01 PM

May I ask why the all-red masks are so great? I've never understood that.

I took it to be their clan/team colour, like a uniform. The Mirage characters in particular were raised to carry out their mission, so for that iteration in particular the uniform red colour makes a lot of sense.

Other versions of the characters are more overtly individualistic and in-story were generally raised as ninja for their own protection moreso than a mission of vengeance. That's why I'm generally very cool with the multi-coloured headbands in those cases. It's also excellent visual shorthand for the individual characters, which yeah, absolutely came from marketing toys, but it's also pretty useful for "mainstream" adaptations.

The "all red" being a Mirage thing makes it more special to me, honestly. It's the original, and being a bit unique visually amongst all the other adaptations/variations makes it stand out.

mrmaczaps

09-12-2016, 10:04 PM

Bebop & Rocksteady are overrated.

Most people don't even know about the red bananas, let alone clamor for their return. :trolleye:

Most people are morons.

mrmaczaps

09-12-2016, 10:08 PM

Be careful what you wish for!

http://i67.tinypic.com/feqb7n.png

I agree, though. It's always a pleasure to see them in a more casual state.

That's looks pretty awesome actually. Bandanas being different colors to me has always been like that guy, always wearing the same hat or same exact shirt everyday. They're a team, they need to be unified. Wear red. Seriously, if someone can't tell them apart because they can't see their weapons or the bandana color, you got issues. Pay attention to what you are reading. Knowing them comes with reading comprehension. Lol

WebLurker

09-12-2016, 10:22 PM

That's looks pretty awesome actually. Bandanas being different colors to me has always been like that guy, always wearing the same hat or same exact shirt everyday. They're a team, they need to be unified. Wear red.

Well, are the bandanas part of a uniform, or personal clothing? I think that the more unique dressing choices tend to make the characters more interesting to watch than the more uniform ones.

Seriously, if someone can't tell them apart because they can't see their weapons or the bandana color, you got issues. Pay attention to what you are reading. Knowing them comes with reading comprehension. Lol

Seriously? I've taken a look at some of the original comics. The Turtles, like the '80s cartoon, look exactly alike. I'm nobody's idiot, and I could't tell which was which, unless they were addressed by name or were holding a weapon. That made me very quickly decide I did not want to read Mirage stuff.

Believe you me, the colored masks area a very useful anti-frustration feature. On top of that, I like the extra color. It makes the comics/cartoons/movies/whatever more interesting to read/view.

mrmaczaps

09-12-2016, 11:47 PM

Well, are the bandanas part of a uniform, or personal clothing? I think that the more unique dressing choices tend to make the characters more interesting to watch than the more uniform ones.

Seriously? I've taken a look at some of the original comics. The Turtles, like the '80s cartoon, look exactly alike. I'm nobody's idiot, and I could't tell which was which, unless they were addressed by name or were holding a weapon. That made me very quickly decide I did not want to read Mirage stuff.

Believe you me, the colored masks area a very useful anti-frustration feature. On top of that, I like the extra color. It makes the comics/cartoons/movies/whatever more interesting to read/view.

You obviously don't pay attention to the art very well in context with reading it... it's obvious which one is whigh almost all the time.

But if you like the multiple colors, more power to you. The powers that be obviously think people are too stupid to tell them apart or they would have kept them all wearing red.

WebLurker

09-12-2016, 11:56 PM

You obviously don't pay attention to the art very well in context with reading it... it's obvious which one is whigh almost all the time.

You obviously don't know me or my reading comprehension very well.

But if you like the multiple colors, more power to you. The powersecond that be obviously think people are too stupid to tell them apart or they would have kept them all wearing red.

There are other reasons, too. The original comics were in black and white, so the mask colors didn't affect the experience very much. In a color cartoon, more variety of colors is generally a better experience, even if not needed. So, lowest common denominator aside, there are very legit reasons to continue the multi colors, not the least of which is that the colors have solidified themselves as what we expect to see and how we imagine them. Also, the color change doesn't really harm anything.

TurtleGuy

09-13-2016, 12:00 AM

You obviously don't pay attention to the art very well in context with reading it... it's obvious which one is whigh almost all the time.

But if you like the multiple colors, more power to you. The powersecond that be obviously think people are too stupid to tell them apart or they would have kept them all wearing red.

Here are a couple random Mirage comic book pages:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6-BqPJlZRws/VH6LoPQcfqI/AAAAAAAAuMo/9n1u10glrsg/s1600/leo%2Bis%2Bhurt.jpg

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/0/6726/757085-517872_19_super.jpg

If not for the name dropping, I honestly would not be able to tell who is who.

And I'm really not liking your elitist attitude(implying people are idiots and such just because they honestly can't tell them apart instantly unlike you somehow or just don't care about red bandanas).

Andrew NDB

09-13-2016, 12:45 AM

Here are a couple random Mirage comic book pages:

http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/leo/leo04.gif

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/0/6726/757085-517872_19_super.jpg

If not for the name dropping, I honestly would not be able to tell who is who.

And I'm really not liking your elitist attitude(implying people are idiots and such just because they honestly can't tell them apart instantly unlike you somehow or just don't care about red bandanas).

Oh. So basically: "If not for all the blatant clues on the page in front of me, how could I possibly tell who's who? Pffffft. This is dumb."

And my challenge way back about, "show me panels where we can't tell who is who" of Mirage B&W TMNT still hasn't really yielded dividends. Just a bunch of folk talking about how difficult it is to tell them apart if they're red-bandannaed who don't... spend a lot of time actually looking at anything where they'd actually ever have to try, even hypothetically. But still wanting to play that card, regardless.

WebLurker

09-13-2016, 12:54 AM

neatoman

09-13-2016, 03:39 AM

Oh. So basically: "If not for all the blatant clues on the page in front of me, how could I possibly tell who's who? Pffffft. This is dumb."

And my challenge way back about, "show me panels where we can't tell who is who" of Mirage B&W TMNT still hasn't really yielded dividends. Just a bunch of folk talking about how difficult it is to tell them apart if they're red-bandannaed who don't... spend a lot of time actually looking at anything where they'd actually ever have to try, even hypothetically. But still wanting to play that card, regardless.

Andrew... The second image is the conclusion of a fist fight between Leo and Raph during which they wrestle around for a bit, the name drop is literally the only clue for who won. While we know which ones are Raph and Leo in the first one, we don't know who's who of Mike and Don until the next issue.

Yes it's true that there are always some context clues but you can't really argue that it's good character design to make four characters look exactly the same, it's usually only done if the creator wants the audience to be uncertain.
http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ASM149_02-e1376784489610.jpg

mrmaczaps

09-13-2016, 10:19 AM

Here are a couple random Mirage comic book pages:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6-BqPJlZRws/VH6LoPQcfqI/AAAAAAAAuMo/9n1u10glrsg/s1600/leo%2Bis%2Bhurt.jpg

http://static2.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/0/6726/757085-517872_19_super.jpg

If not for the name dropping, I honestly would not be able to tell who is who.

And I'm really not liking your elitist attitude(implying people are idiots and such just because they honestly can't tell them apart instantly unlike you somehow or just don't care about red bandanas).

And I don't much care for your lack of skills in reading. Taking two panels from a comic pulls it from context and negates what I said about reading and seeing the images in context. Lazy. Read more comics. I have zero issue telling them apart while I'm reading. Colored bandanas is lazy. And frankly, with their designs being so different today, there's absolutely no reason to keep their colors. Do like the 2k3 series did and make the wraps on the weapons color coded if you must... stupifying of the Turtles for your lack of brains is well, stupid.

ToTheNines

09-13-2016, 10:55 AM

mrmaczaps

09-13-2016, 12:33 PM

WebLurker

09-13-2016, 01:02 PM

And I don't much care for your pack of skills in reading. Taking two panels from a comic pulls it from context and negates what I said about reading and seeing the images in context. Lazy. Read more comics. I have zero issue telling them apart while I'm reading.

Well, it's all well and good if you can tell them apart easily, but for those of us who have to work to do it, it saps a lot of fun out of it. And I must say that I'm starting to get offended as being dismissed as being lazy or an idiot for not being able to tell them apart effortlessly. Look, I'm not an idiot, can easily read at college level, and read comics. I have read some of the original TMNT stuff, and you know what? It is a pain in the butt to tell them apart when no weapon is visible and they're not addressed by name.

Colored bandanas is lazy.

To be frankly honest, excusing practical reasons, they look awesome like that (IMHO), far more so than the uniformity of the masks. (I'm sorry to have to say this, but I always thought the original designs and color choices were kind of ugly and that the red masks were a part of it.)

And frankly, with their designs being so different today, there's absolutely no reason to keep their colors.

Besides the fact that the colored masks have replaced the all reds ones as the default look and are as associated with the characters as their trademark weapons? I think the question is: "Why should they go back to red, when the only reason seems to be 'because that's how Mirage did it'?"

Do like the 2k3 series did and make the wraps on the weapons color coded if you must... stupifying of the Turtles for your lack of brains is well, stupid.

To be honest, I don't like the colored wraps very much. A quirk of mine. And it's hardly stupid to prefer one design over the other. In my case, I think the multicolors are superior because of the design reasons, while the fact that it further differentiates the characters on a visual level is a perk.

Andrew NDB

09-13-2016, 01:21 PM

Besides the fact that the colored masks have replaced the all reds ones as the default look and are as associated with the characters as their trademark weapons? I think the question is: "Why should they go back to red, when the only reason seems to be 'because that's how Mirage did it'?"

You're right. It's only the source material.

TurtleGuy

09-13-2016, 01:50 PM

ToTheNines

09-13-2016, 02:00 PM

Not trying to be mean, but the context of the story is all that matters, ya know?

Another anti-rainbow point: look at the million times we had bandana errors in Fred Wolf and Archie, even a couple in 4kids & IDW. Kinda defeats the purpose of "telling everyone apart" if the production team can't even get it right, no?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-13-2016, 02:03 PM

ToTheNines

09-13-2016, 02:11 PM

Been a long time. Once or twice in Infestation, and once in either #6 or #7.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-13-2016, 02:14 PM

Been a long time. Once or twice in Infestation, and once in either #6 or #7.

I'll have to check #6 and #7.

I thought you were talking about the first five issues where all four Turtles have red masks. Surprised they never caught that...

ToTheNines

09-13-2016, 02:15 PM

Yeah, they had some hack editing it before Bobby lol.

It was definitely #6, now that I'm thinking harder.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-13-2016, 02:19 PM

Yeah, they had some hack editing it before Bobby lol.

It was definitely #6, now that I'm thinking harder.

I just reviewed both 6 and 7. Didn't see a thing.

MsMarvelDuckie

09-13-2016, 02:28 PM

Actually I don't believe Raph even had one then. He had been on his own for over a year and I think he was maskless the whole time. The others only wore red in honor/memory of their brother. And honestly that is the ONLY reason I can think of for any of them ever going back to all one color. It could justvas easily be all blue. Or purple or.... This debate has been going on since before I even joined. So far the only argument for all red seems to be "because Mirage", and that it is more "ninja-esque" when in fact that fact has been refuted. Do we REALLY need a uniform color? What purpose does it actually serve when ninjas never had clan colors? As for having all one color in a BLACK AND WHITE comic- well that's kind of a moot point now, ain't it? The masks are COLORLESS!!! The entire logic on that one is pretty ridiculous. On both sides I might add. Only when the pages are colored would it even matter what color they are SUPPOSED to be. Otherwise, it's pointless.

ToTheNines

09-13-2016, 03:02 PM

I just reviewed both 6 and 7. Didn't see a thing.

God damnit cylons.

*walks down to basement*

#6 page 5, top panel. On the right you'll see a Leo/Raph switcheroo.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-13-2016, 03:06 PM

God damnit cylons.

*walks down to basement*

#6 page 5, top panel. On the right you'll see a Leo/Raph switcheroo.

WOW. I really had to squint on that, but you're right.

How the FRAK did you ever see that in the first place? :tlol:

ToTheNines

09-13-2016, 03:12 PM

After the years of abuse at the hands of Fred Wolf, head band color errors trigger me.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-13-2016, 03:23 PM

After the years of abuse at the hands of Fred Wolf, head band color errors trigger me.

A NOTICEABLE color error would bug me. Something like that? Where I need a magnifying glass?

I'll let it slide. :tgrin:

Powder

09-13-2016, 04:29 PM

Been a long time. Once or twice in Infestation, and once in either #6 or #7.

There were some goofs in Animated Adventures, too.

ToTheNines

09-13-2016, 04:33 PM

There were some goofs in Animated Adventures, too.

This is true. They've been good about that for a long time... but that accounts for EVERY rainbow version, save for the theatrical stuff and Nickelodeon, suffering from this.

Nuff said.

WebLurker

09-14-2016, 12:13 AM

You're right. It's only the source material.

I think the '80s cartoon has pretty much replaced Mirage as the source material. Multicolored masks? Love of pizza? Shredder being the Darth Vader of the franchise and clashing with the Turtles on a regular basis? Leonardo being the official leader? Those are pretty much unbreakable laws of the franchise today.

LeotheLateBloomer

09-14-2016, 01:29 AM

Yeah, all the modern stuff gives them different designs/heights/skin.

Tell me you don't know who's who in this?
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4040/4455876128_ff1ecec8dc_o.png

Those examples are crap, too TurtleGuy. The one from the Leo ish: Leo is obvious and Raph is the one with no mask (which is obvious if you actually read the book). The other two aren't talking so it dosen't matter. On top of that, it's in black and white anyways! So pretend they're in rainbow gear if you want.

The only example I've ever found where you really can't tell who is who is Tales v.1 #1, but only at the beginning.

It's beautiful! I would love to make this my new profile pic.:cry:

I think the '80s cartoon has pretty much replaced Mirage as the source material. Multicolored masks? Love of pizza? Shredder being the Darth Vader of the franchise and clashing with the Turtles on a regular basis? Leonardo being the official leader? Those are pretty much unbreakable laws of the franchise today.

That is incorporating well-known elements into further incarnations. Even then, the later incarnations such as the films, 2k3, Nick, and to an extent NT: TNM have mostly based their material off of Mirage than the Fred Wolf toon. Also whether it was official or not, Leo has always taken the responsibility of leadership in any way he could.

FredWolfLeonardo

09-14-2016, 01:39 AM

Are people so pissed at FW that the coloured bandanas make their blood boil? What has this world come to?

Andrew NDB

09-14-2016, 01:54 AM

I think the '80s cartoon has pretty much replaced Mirage as the source material.

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/batman-robin-laughter.gif

LeotheLateBloomer

09-14-2016, 02:10 AM

Even Silver-Aged Batman disagrees.

Are people so pissed at FW that the coloured bandanas make their blood boil? What has this world come to?

Dude, it's not a big deal. It's just it'd be nice to see at least one other version outside the Mirage (and briefly IDW) where the turtles wear red bandanas.

neatoman

09-14-2016, 03:45 AM

I think the '80s cartoon has pretty much replaced Mirage as the source material. Multicolored masks? Love of pizza? Shredder being the Darth Vader of the franchise and clashing with the Turtles on a regular basis? Leonardo being the official leader? Those are pretty much unbreakable laws of the franchise today.

Not exactly. Shredder in the FW cartoon wasn't really Darth Vader as much as he was Elmer Fudd.

Might sound like a strange way to start off my argument but most of the things you mentioned are rather superficial, multicolored masks and pizza aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. I've said this before but I feel it's worth repeating, tonally speaking (and storywise) the Fred Wolf cartoon is pretty much ignored, where in the FW cartoon did anything like this happen?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CwPy1aKK4mo/VhlaZ9RSWAI/AAAAAAAAQiw/USDzWtwh_rk/s1600/50-5.png

And how many times did things like this happen?
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/0026-493x375.jpg

TurtleGuy

09-14-2016, 04:35 AM

Not exactly. Shredder in the FW cartoon wasn't really Darth Vader as much as he was Elmer Fudd.

I'd say Shredder was more Dick Dastardly than Elmer Fudd.

But I'm pretty sure I'll proven wrong yet again.

neatoman

09-14-2016, 04:52 AM

I'd say Shredder was more Dick Dastardly than Elmer Fudd.

But I'm pretty sure I'll proven wrong yet again.

Yosemite Sam maybe?

TurtleGuy

09-14-2016, 04:57 AM

Yosemite Sam maybe?

With a hint of Wile E. Coyote?

neatoman

09-14-2016, 05:32 AM

With a hint of Wile E. Coyote?

Come to think of it, he probably has the most in common with Doronjo. Which, ironically, pretty much has to be a coincidence.

WebLurker

09-14-2016, 11:16 AM

Not exactly. Shredder in the FW cartoon wasn't really Darth Vader as much as he was Elmer Fudd.

To put it another way, Mirage Shredder was killed off in issue one (and was only resurrected twice). The idea of him living and having a constant feud with the Turtles was invented by the '80s cartoon and has carried over to pretty much every other adaptation.

Might sound like a strange way to start off my argument but most of the things you mentioned are rather superficial, multicolored masks and pizza aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. I've said this before but I feel it's worth repeating, tonally speaking (and storywise) the Fred Wolf cartoon is pretty much ignored, where in the FW cartoon did anything like this happen?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CwPy1aKK4mo/VhlaZ9RSWAI/AAAAAAAAQiw/USDzWtwh_rk/s1600/50-5.png

And how many times did things like this happen?
http://www.adventuresinpoortaste.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/0026-493x375.jpg

Well, the masks have been pretty much used ever since, so if they're not that important, why is that? The pizza, I suppose.

While the rest of TMNT may never gone as goofy as the '80s show, from my experience, most subsequent installments are far more lighthearted than Mirage is, which is probably thanks to the '80s cartoon.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-14-2016, 11:21 AM

To put it another way, Mirage Shredder was killed off in issue one (and was only resurrected twice). The idea of him living and having a constant feud with the Turtles was invented by the '80s cartoon and has carried over to pretty much every other adaptation.

Shredder having a constant feud with the Turtles was most definitely NOT invented by the 80's cartoon.

His feud with the Turtles continued from his death on through all Foot Clan dealings (culminating in "City at War") and then through his daughter Pimiko throughout all of Volume 3. And it began even before Shredder, with Oroku Nagi and Hamato Yoshi.

So no. The 80's cartoon did NOT come up with the everlasting feud, nor did they really do it justice. By my count, only IDW and Nick have done justice to the Yoshi/Saki feud since.

ToTheNines

09-14-2016, 11:48 AM

Another story idea I've toyed around with, for an unborn universe, is having them all just have natural red markings around their eyes in some way that looks cool, yet not too outlandish. Since they're Red Eared Sliders, it could work.

Then to make Playmates happy, just sprinkle some rainbow in the designs tastefully. Give Leo blue hilts, Mikey orange wraps and pads, Don a purple man purse. But nothing for Raph, he's a practical turtle.

WebLurker

09-14-2016, 12:09 PM

Shredder having a constant feud with the Turtles was most definitely NOT invented by the 80's cartoon.

His feud with the Turtles continued from his death on through all Foot Clan dealings (culminating in "City at War") and then through his daughter Pimiko throughout all of Volume 3. And it began even before Shredder, with Oroku Nagi and Hamato Yoshi.

Okay, I didn't realize that.

So no. The 80's cartoon did NOT come up with the everlasting feud, nor did they really do it justice. By my count, only IDW and Nick have done justice to the Yoshi/Saki feud since.

Fair enough (although I think '80s Shredder was good for the type of character he was and show he was on).

Andrew NDB

09-14-2016, 12:33 PM

To put it another way, Mirage Shredder was killed off in issue one (and was only resurrected twice).

Eh, once. I'd hardly call the "Shredder Shark" a conscious or resurrected Oroku Saki.

The idea of him living and having a constant feud with the Turtles was invented by the '80s cartoon

True, although I can kind of understand the why. Not that they would care or that it would necessarily even make a difference to them (every cartoon of its ilk needed a singular Big Bad, i.e., a Skeletor), but how would Fred Wolf know that Shredder wasn't going to be a constant foil for the Turtles in the comics at that time? How would they know that resurrection #1 wasn't going to be 1 of dozens, and he wouldn't just be this perpetual sort of Joker to the Turtles' Batman?

Andrew NDB

09-14-2016, 12:37 PM

Shredder having a constant feud with the Turtles was most definitely NOT invented by the 80's cartoon.

His feud with the Turtles continued from his death on through all Foot Clan dealings (culminating in "City at War") and then through his daughter Pimiko throughout all of Volume 3. And it began even before Shredder, with Oroku Nagi and Hamato Yoshi.

Eh, "the longstanding blood feud with the Orokus and the Foot Clan and the Turtles" is not really the same thing as "Shredder (himself) constantly feuding with the Turtles."

Panda_Kahn_fan

09-14-2016, 12:58 PM

I think the '80s cartoon has pretty much replaced Mirage as the source material. Multicolored masks? Love of pizza? Shredder being the Darth Vader of the franchise and clashing with the Turtles on a regular basis? Leonardo being the official leader? Those are pretty much unbreakable laws of the franchise today.

It can't become the source material, that will always and forever be Mirage. But the OT is what everyone knows, and everyone who makes turtle media draws from. As I said in another thread, there have been too many generations saturated with the OT elements, from multiple media sources. All major versions of TMNT going forward are going to be multicolored masked, pizza chomping, Bebop and Rocksteady fighting, ninja heroes.

With turtles, I see people drawing more from the mixed soup of all TMNT adaptations and generations, with mirage as the first foundational ingredient in the mix. But I don't see anyone in power ever just going back an making pure Mirage TMNT broth ever again. Unless a piece of media is directly tied to mirage, I don't see red bandannas ever being a thing in any turtle n ever again.

WebLurker

09-15-2016, 12:49 AM

It can't become the source material, that will always and forever be Mirage.

Maybe it would fairer to say that the OT has become the most influential installment of the franchise, rather than it replaced Mirage as the source material?

But the OT is what everyone knows, and everyone who makes turtle media draws from. As I said in another thread, there have been too many generations saturated with the OT elements, from multiple media sources. All major versions of TMNT going forward are going to be multicolored masked, pizza chomping, Bebop and Rocksteady fighting, ninja heroes.

With turtles, I see people drawing more from the mixed soup of all TMNT adaptations and generations, with mirage as the first foundational ingredient in the mix. But I don't see anyone in power ever just going back an making pure Mirage TMNT broth ever again. Unless a piece of media is directly tied to mirage, I don't see red bandannas ever being a thing in any turtle n ever again.

Actually, I think the "mixed broth" has been a good thing for the franchise. It really opens up the storytelling possibilities.

Agree with you that the colored masks are here to stay.

Andrew NDB

09-15-2016, 01:12 AM

Maybe it would fairer to say that the OT has become the most influential installment of the franchise, rather than it replaced Mirage as the source material?

Only on a corporate, "What is probably going to make us the most money, historically?" level. With the possible exception of IDW, the colored masks have never been (re)born out of any other sort of agenda.

Actually, I think the "mixed broth" has been a good thing for the franchise. It really opens up the storytelling possibilities.

I don't think the old adage about, "if you try to please everybody, you will please nobody" is too far from the mark. I mean, I'm not so anal that I'm absolutely against intrinsically good elements from the children's spinoff stuff making it into new mainstream material... but it's got to be intrinsically good stuff. TMNT jambalaya, or making the creative puzzle "How do we rearrange these existing pieces from all these children's spinoff universes into something new?" instead of "How do we take the true spirit of the TMNT and come at it with a new, cohesive creative vision and really make it pop?" just seems pretty... I want to say lazy, but it's not (because I can imagine it being a lot of work in itself), but just plain shortsighted and the snake eating its own tail. Borderline fanfiction (which... it is, in a way, because now it is literally the fans bringing back to life their childhoods playing with toys on bigger platforms). I mean, King Tut doesn't need to be dusted off in Batman just because some kids laughed at him once in the 60s show and #nostalgia. Sure, I'm absolutely certain a talented writer could make a kickass version of King Tut that's awesome and scary and everything that character wasn't on the show... but if you're going to do all that, why even use that character? Would it be so off-the-wall to leave that character on the rack and -- gasp -- make something new?

pferreira

09-15-2016, 10:25 AM

Not exactly. Shredder in the FW cartoon wasn't really Darth Vader as much as he was Elmer Fudd.

Might sound like a strange way to start off my argument but most of the things you mentioned are rather superficial, multicolored masks and pizza aren't that important in the grand scheme of things. I've said this before but I feel it's worth repeating, tonally speaking (and storywise) the Fred Wolf cartoon is pretty much ignored, You just couldn't resist taking potshots at the Fred Wolf cartoon could you. :x Sorry to disappoint you but no the Fred Wolf cartoon isn't ignored, it's just the stuff mentioned here was created for that cartoon and people like it enough that it's become associated with the Ninja Turtles throughout the years. You're blaming the public for liking aspects of the Fred Wolf cartoon that have carried on in other media?! :o

Maybe it would fairer to say that the OT has become the most influential installment of the franchise, rather than it replaced Mirage as the source material? Agree with you that the colored masks are here to stay.Yeah I mean you have to take into account the Mirage comic was still in it's infancy when the Fred Wolf series aired. There wasn't as much that could be adapted from the comic faithfully and stuff that could be adapted would need retooling (for better or worse) to audiences.

I'm not against bringing back the red masks, the cover made for the original Nes game was fantastic but years ago when I started reading the Mirage coloured comics I found it difficult to figure out who is who. I had to keep looking for their weapons to find out if Leo, Don, etc was speaking.

neatoman

09-15-2016, 12:00 PM

You just couldn't resist taking potshots at the Fred Wolf cartoon could you. :x Sorry to disappoint you but no the Fred Wolf cartoon isn't ignored, it's just the stuff mentioned here was created for that cartoon and people like it enough that it's become associated with the Ninja Turtles throughout the years. You're blaming the public for liking aspects of the Fred Wolf cartoon that have carried on in other media?! :o

Yeah I mean you have to take into account the Mirage comic was still in it's infancy when the Fred Wolf series aired. There wasn't as much that could be adapted from the comic faithfully and stuff that could be adapted would need retooling (for better or worse) to audiences.

I'm not against bringing back the red masks, the cover made for the original Nes game was fantastic but years ago when I started reading the Mirage coloured comics I found it difficult to figure out who is who. I had to keep looking for their weapons to find out if Leo, Don, etc was speaking.

I never said it was being ignored, just that the things from it that continues to be used aren't really that important, like a coat of paint. For example, the IDW turles might eat pizza but it's out of focus, unimportant.

I mean honestly, do you really feel such a strong need to defend elements from a cheap toy commercial from anyone dismissing them as unimportant?

Redeemer

09-15-2016, 12:39 PM

As much as I liked the Red Mask I am actually happy they have colored mask just so when I am reading the word bubbles in the comics I know who the Hell is talking :lol: Half the time while reading the old Mirage stuff I would have to go back a panel and look at which turtle had which weapon so I knew who the hell was talking..... :lol:

LeotheLateBloomer

09-15-2016, 01:00 PM

the IDW turles might eat pizza but it's out of focus, unimportant.

How often do they eat pizza? I ask because I haven't read a lot of IDW.

Andrew NDB

09-15-2016, 01:00 PM

when I am reading the word bubbles in the comics I know who the Hell is talking :lol: Half the time while reading the old Mirage stuff I would have to go back a panel and look at which turtle had which weapon so I knew who the hell was talking..... :lol:

It can be difficult to go through life with a disability, it's true.

neatoman

09-15-2016, 02:47 PM

How often do they eat pizza? I ask because I haven't read a lot of IDW.

Not a lot, probably less and less with time. Early on it's explained that Woody (a guy working at a pizzeria) caught the turtles rooting through the garbage for food and started giving them free pizzas out of charity. To be honest, they start eating a variety of different things pretty early on. Pizza is (for the most part) just treated like any other food in the IDW series and not like the thing the turtles love the most in the world, pretty soon you don't really think about it at all.

WebLurker

09-16-2016, 12:18 AM

It can be difficult to go through life with a disability, it's true.

Why are admissions that the Mirage Turtles are hard to keep track of make the confessors targets of scorn?

mrmaczaps

09-16-2016, 02:14 PM

Why are admissions that the Mirage Turtles are hard to keep track of make the confessors targets of scorn?

Because it's a lack of their brain being able to pick up on art, the other half of the comics communication form that really makes it comics... If you can't read the art and see the subtle differences, you have issues.

Saying that the bandanas HAVE to be colorized otherwise you don't know who is talking is just juvenile. It's your opinion. It's you agreeing with playmates that you are stupid. (I'm not saying you're stupid.) Playmates didn't want kids and parents to have to guess and wanted to be able to sell more toys. It's a gimmick.

The Turtles should wear red same as the foot soldiers. Even moreso now in IDW because they are part of the foot... They were "in a previous life" part of the foot clan when it was still good... Or at least Splinter was... Before he quit and they all died. Lol

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

09-16-2016, 02:28 PM

So basically, the color of the bandannas is for everyone what nostrils is for Cubed?

:tlol: Good to know.

MsMarvelDuckie

09-16-2016, 02:31 PM

snake

09-16-2016, 02:55 PM

If anything I would think that would be a reason NOT to. Wouldn't they want to distance themselves from the Foot and it's sullied honor? Even after rejoining, shouldn't they want to forge a new path by giving it a new image and letting Shredder's symbols die with him? Makes more sense than clinging to a past that only tarnishes their reputations.

Wouldn't distancing themselves be considered less honorable? I'm not too sure what is and isn't honorable when it comes to ninja clans.

Andrew NDB

09-16-2016, 02:57 PM

If anything I would think that would be a reason NOT to. Wouldn't they want to distance themselves from the Foot and it's sullied honor? Even after rejoining, shouldn't they want to forge a new path by giving it a new image and letting Shredder's symbols die with him? Makes more sense than clinging to a past that only tarnishes their reputations.

That's a dumb rationale. Should they switch from brown to white wristbands, because the Foot Soldiers wear brown wristbands, too?

I'm not too sure what is and isn't honorable when it comes to ninja clans.

Exactly. I mean, the Turtles do occasionally throw around the word "honor," but... really?

WebLurker

09-16-2016, 04:28 PM

Because it's a lack of their brain being able to pick up on art, the other half of the comics communication form that really makes it comics... If you can't read the art and see the subtle differences, you have issues.

Depends on the specific art. I've seen some where you can tell, infer by the dialogue, or otherwise. But others are very hazy that I wouldn't blame anyone from not knowing who's who. If the Mirage Turtles were more visually distinct, they way they are in the Nick cartoon and new movies, that would help considerably.

Saying that the bandanas HAVE to be colorized otherwise you don't know who is talking is just juvenile. It's your opinion. It's you agreeing with playmates that you are stupid. (I'm not saying you're stupid.) Playmates didn't want kids and parents to have to guess and wanted to be able to sell more toys. It's a gimmick.

And now Playmates sells toys with all-red, too. We've come full-circle, huh?

The Turtles should wear red same as the foot soldiers. Even moreso now in IDW because they are part of the foot... They were "in a previous life" part of the foot clan when it was still good... Or at least Splinter was... Before he quit and they all died. Lol

Well, maybe in IDW, but in most other versions, they're not, so that specific argument doesn't seem relevant across the brand.

To be frankly honest, the "you can't tell who's who" is kind of secondary issue, at best. I vote multicolored for one reason, I think it looks better. I like the less uniform look, I think the different colors make them seem more unique, and on top of that, I've seen the all-red artwork and I don't like it. I miss the variety.

FredWolfLeonardo

09-16-2016, 04:52 PM

Others: The turtles should have red bandannas in order to serve the honour of the foot clan, plus it looks so much more original and pure than the childish colour bands that have occured because of FWs toxic influence on the franchise, surely it won't be significant in the grand scheme of the turtles. You must be a FW peasent if you rely on the colours to tell them apart, they were just made to sell toys and be corporate sell outs to kids, its a shame you can't appreciate the purity of the red bandannas and you should be concerned about yourself if you can't notice the subtlety of great art, you should be able to instantly tell each turtle apart without the colour bandannas!

Me: I think coloured bandanas look cool, I guess we should stick with those...

Candy Kappa

09-16-2016, 05:14 PM

I personally prefer the red masks, but in the end I can tolerate the toyetic masks.

MsMarvelDuckie

09-16-2016, 07:34 PM

Wouldn't distancing themselves be considered less honorable? I'm not too sure what is and isn't honorable when it comes to ninja clans.

From a clan that was being run by a revenge-obsessed psychopath who has tried to kill them (sometimes repeatedly) in every version? The same clan that has been composed of teenage thieves, robots, and even gun-toting mercenaries in different iterations? THAT Foot clan? Given the turtles' and Splinter's more bushido code of honor, I'd say yes they WOULD want to distance themselves from that sort of thing. Particularly in versions where the Foot clan was Yoshi's RIVAL clan. (1990 film made it ound as though Yoshi came from a different clan than Saki.)

That's a dumb rationale. Should they switch from brown to white wristbands, because the Foot Soldiers wear brown wristbands, too?

Exactly. I mean, the Turtles do occasionally throw around the word "honor," but... really?

Dumb how? You don't wear the colors of your team's biggest rival and sit on the home side of a football game. THAT would be dumb. So why would they need or even want to wear the same colors as the guy who always wants them dead? Wearing the red really serves no purpose outside of "kewl edgy". Not even as a ninja thing since we already know ninjas never really had clan colors to begin with. Thats a European thing as several people have stated. If anything, the multi-colors is more in line with real ninjas. But hey red is so cool! So is all blue. Or all bkack..... The same rational could be used for any color if they had been given a different one.

Only REAL argument for all red is it would hide blood stains better.... Deadpool AINT wrong about that.

pferreira

09-22-2016, 10:14 AM

Why are admissions that the Mirage Turtles are hard to keep track of make the confessors targets of scorn?Yeah I don't get it either. They're all drawn the same pretty much unless we're talking about Volume 3, that's a different story.

I mean honestly, do you really feel such a strong need to defend elements from a cheap toy commercial from anyone dismissing them as unimportant?What you consider unimportant people have fond memories of and like Turtles because it has those elements. And calling the 80s series a cheap toy commercial is taking potshots the same way I could call your beloved IDW series a cheap comic series. My opinion and people will disagree but I feel that's out of order man.

neatoman

09-22-2016, 10:39 AM

What you consider unimportant people have fond memories of and like Turtles because it has those elements. And calling the 80s series a cheap toy commercial is taking potshots the same way I could call your beloved IDW series a cheap comic series. My opinion and people will disagree but I feel that's out of order man.

Well there's of course the difference that even if you can call what IDW does cheap, you can't really accuse them of producing it for the sole purpose of selling toys (there isn't even any type of merch for it, not even t-shirts), it's made with the purpose of being genuine entertainment.

I mean sure, I have fond memories of the Pokemon anime but I have to admit it doesn't really hold up nor would I really defend the quality, and part of the reason it doesn't hold up is because it wasn't really created for the purpose of being entertaining but rather for the purpose of marketing video games.

oldmanwinters

09-23-2016, 10:32 PM

If any Mirage purists yearn to see the red masks on the Nick Turtles, you can always pick up a copy of the "Mix & Match" book! :tlol:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-Mix-Match-/272300195513?hash=item3f665b3eb9:m:m5aFO7bPyzQLrT-FTDzJJPw
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/MixMatchBook_zpsnr8n2tbg.jpg (http://s9.photobucket.com/user/slimer2erasmus/media/MixMatchBook_zpsnr8n2tbg.jpg.html)

Andrew NDB

09-24-2016, 01:28 AM

If any Mirage purists yearn to see the red masks on the Nick Turtles

I do not. There is no reason.

LeotheLateBloomer

09-24-2016, 06:56 AM

If any Mirage purists yearn to see the red masks on the Nick Turtles, you can always pick up a copy of the "Mix & Match" book! :tlol:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-Mix-Match-/272300195513?hash=item3f665b3eb9:m:m5aFO7bPyzQLrT-FTDzJJPw

I do not see why I should be labeled a 'Mirage purist' for being interested in seeing at least one other version where they wear read masks.:tconfuse:

Powder

09-24-2016, 07:13 AM

I do not see why you should think he was labeling you or anyone else in this thread.

oldmanwinters

09-24-2016, 07:18 AM

VR9NbvTOfaU

Coola Yagami

09-24-2016, 04:57 PM

If anything I would think that would be a reason NOT to. Wouldn't they want to distance themselves from the Foot and it's sullied honor? Even after rejoining, shouldn't they want to forge a new path by giving it a new image and letting Shredder's symbols die with him? Makes more sense than clinging to a past that only tarnishes their reputations.

That's kinda hard to do... even their own fighting style is essentially... the Foot Clan fighting style. Their lives are too tied to the clan to just ignore and distance themselves from it.

MsMarvelDuckie

09-24-2016, 10:21 PM

Depends on which version we are talking about. AFAIK Yoshi was never IN the Foot EXCEPT in FW (and now IDW and Nick I guess). In the 90's films he was apparently not part of it, nor in 2K3 or even Mirage from what I understand of his backstory there. So no, they would not have been using ANYTHING of the Foot in any of those versions. Thus no reason out of OR in-story for the red masks. It is literally just an arbitrary color choice by the artists.

FTR I have nothing against the red masks. I just don't see why anyone gets so hung up on something so trivial that only confuses things. It's a bit like conplaining that Batman doesn't wear the old 60's outfit anymore.

Panda_Kahn_fan

09-24-2016, 10:25 PM

I do not see why I should be labeled a 'Mirage purist' for being interested in seeing at least one other version where they wear read masks.:tconfuse:

I don't mind them wearing the red masks, I just want them worn for the right reasons.

snake

09-24-2016, 10:26 PM

D8cvgQJFDeo

Is this the most Drome-Relevant video of all time?

WebLurker

09-25-2016, 12:17 AM

Depends on which version we are talking about. AFAIK Yoshi was never IN the Foot EXCEPT in FW (and now IDW and Nick I guess)...

Splinter was never a Foot Clan member in the Nick show. "Vengeance is Mine" and "Tale of the Yokai" establish that he belonged to the Hamato Clan. Shredder was the last survivor of the Foot Clan (which was an enemy of Hamato Clan). As an adult, Shredder rebuilt the Foot, officially starting on the day he attacked Splinter and his family, which leads to the events of the TV show.

FTR I have nothing against the red masks. I just don't see why anyone gets so hung up on something so trivial that only confuses things. It's a bit like conplaining that Batman doesn't wear the old 60's outfit anymore.

:nod::thumbsup:

pferreira

09-29-2016, 10:11 AM

Well there's of course the difference that even if you can call what IDW does cheap, you can't really accuse them of producing it for the sole purpose of selling toys (there isn't even any type of merch for it, not even t-shirts), it's made with the purpose of being genuine entertainment.

I mean sure, I have fond memories of the Pokemon anime but I have to admit it doesn't really hold up nor would I really defend the quality, and part of the reason it doesn't hold up is because it wasn't really created for the purpose of being entertaining but rather for the purpose of marketing video games.No that's not right. If you were being insensitive or cynical you could easily say the IDW is as much a cash grab as the Fred Wolf series because the purpose of the IDW series is to bring Viacom money, the same way the 80s cartoon did for Mirage. That's the whole point of a franchise, to make money.

Candy Kappa

09-29-2016, 10:56 AM

even Mirage from what I understand of his backstory there.

.... Not sure what issues you've read, but Yoshi was a member of the Foot Clan in Mirage comics.

Powder

10-01-2016, 05:16 PM

No that's not right. If you were being insensitive or cynical you could easily say the IDW is as much a cash grab as the Fred Wolf series because the purpose of the IDW series is to bring Viacom money, the same way the 80s cartoon did for Mirage. That's the whole point of a franchise, to make money.

No, it's definitely right. They literally said we're gonna make a series to sell toys. It being good independent of that fact is a bonus.

pferreira

10-06-2016, 10:00 AM

No, it's definitely right. They literally said we're gonna make a series to sell toys. It being good independent of that fact is a bonus.Of course they made it to sell toys but the IDW comic series is meant to make money the same way. They're both exactly the same, there to make money which is why it's a franchise.

After neatoman's last response I asked original series writer Brynne Chandler about fans criticism of the lack of story arcs and the fact it was meant as nothing more than a 'cheap toy commercial'. This is my comment and then what she had to say:

"I know, I hate fans feeling it's inferior to the other Turtles cartoon series, that it lacks depth and was made just to sell toys. I understand you can make that argument with some cartoon shows but I really don't get that at all with this series. Okay the 80's cartoon lacked massive story arcs, gritty action and drama but while I had nothing to do with the Fred Wolf series I take great offence to people saying we can't take it seriously because it has no depth and the writers didn't care." - Me

"It wasn't really possible to do massive story arcs in 80s cartoons because there was no guarantee that the episodes would always be shown in order. Especially in syndication. So, fans complaining about this might want to educate themselves a bit about how the medium worked at that time, yah?" - Brynne Chandler

That's the best response I could get, take it as you will. Personally I happy with it. :)

neatoman

10-06-2016, 10:57 AM

Of course they made it to sell toys but the IDW comic series is meant to make money the same way. They're both exactly the same, there to make money which is why it's a franchise.

After neatoman's last response I asked original series writer Brynne Chandler about fans criticism of the lack of story arcs and the fact it was meant as nothing more than a 'cheap toy commercial'. This is my comment and then what she had to say:

"I know, I hate fans feeling it's inferior to the other Turtles cartoon series, that it lacks depth and was made just to sell toys. I understand you can make that argument with some cartoon shows but I really don't get that at all with this series. Okay the 80's cartoon lacked massive story arcs, gritty action and drama but while I had nothing to do with the Fred Wolf series I take great offence to people saying we can't take it seriously because it has no depth and the writers didn't care." - Me

"It wasn't really possible to do massive story arcs in 80s cartoons because there was no guarantee that the episodes would always be shown in order. Especially in syndication. So, fans complaining about this might want to educate themselves a bit about how the medium worked at that time, yah?" - Brynne Chandler

That's the best response I could get, take it as you will. Personally I happy with it. :)

Yes, it's true that there was a demand for syndication friendly television back then and that the episodes couldn't really form a strong connected narrative, nobody is disputing that. However, in such a scenario the episodes need to work on their own and therein lies the problem.

You're creating a strawman here, the problem isn't that aren't any arcs but that the self contained episodes don't work. Deus ex Machina, padding and contradictions, all common problems in the FW cartoon and you'd probably consider them problems in any other show. Even episodic writing needs to be well paced and make some narrative sense, sorry.

As for your comment on the IDW series being made for profit, there is a rather important difference. The comics themselves are where the profits for IDW lies, the comics are the product so there has to be something keeping the reader interested in buying the book, like a good story. For Fred Wolf it was different, the show was just a means to sell the toys which meant that as long they sold the company could receive funding for the cartoon, as a result it was deemed more profitable to cut corners and the show itself suffered from it.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

10-06-2016, 11:11 AM

Yes, it's true that there was a demand for syndication friendly television back then and that the episodes couldn't really form a strong connected narrative, nobody is disputing that. However, in such a scenario the episodes need to work on their own and therein lies the problem.

You're creating a strawman here, the problem isn't that aren't any arcs but that the self contained episodes don't work. Deus ex Machina, padding and contradictions, all common problems in the FW cartoon and you'd probably consider them problems in any other show. Even episodic writing needs to be well paced and make some narrative sense, sorry.

As for your comment on the IDW series being made for profit, there is a rather important difference. The comics themselves are where the profits for IDW lies, the comics are the product so there has to be something keeping the reader interested in buying the book, like a good story. For Fred Wolf it was different, the show was just a means to sell the toys which meant that as long they sold the company could receive funding for the cartoon, as a result it was deemed more profitable to cut corners and the show itself suffered from it.

Word of gospel.

MsMarvelDuckie

10-06-2016, 10:30 PM

Splinter was never a Foot Clan member in the Nick show. "Vengeance is Mine" and "Tale of the Yokai" establish that he belonged to the Hamato Clan. Shredder was the last survivor of the Foot Clan (which was an enemy of Hamato Clan). As an adult, Shredder rebuilt the Foot, officially starting on the day he attacked Splinter and his family, which leads to the events of the TV show.

:nod::thumbsup:

Yes I know that Yoshi wasn't technically in the Foot there. However, one could argue that neither was Saki. He was adopted into the Hamato clan, making it one of the FEW places they were ever in the same clan. That was my point sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

.... Not sure what issues you've read, but Yoshi was a member of the Foot Clan in Mirage comics.

Was not aware of that. I had always thought they wrre from rival clans like in the movie. It was never mentioned in any of the issues I have so I just assumed they were from different clans. However, Splinter himself was never part of ANY clan technically. Unless they were into adopting pets into their clan. In any case Splinter raised the turtles as HAMATOs and not Foot. So no, they really had NO association with tbe clan outside of some techniques. Which is kind of my point about not wearing Foot colors. Why would they if they are not even directly associated with it?

mrmaczaps

10-06-2016, 11:04 PM

Was not aware of that. I had always thought they wrre from rival clans like in the movie. It was never mentioned in any of the issues I have so I just assumed they were from different clans. However, Splinter himself was never part of ANY clan technically. Unless they were into adopting pets into their clan. In any case Splinter raised the turtles as HAMATOs and not Foot. So no, they really had NO association with tbe clan outside of some techniques. Which is kind of my point about not wearing Foot colors. Why would they if they are not even directly associated with it?

Except that Yoshi was Foot and his techniques are of the Foot... and what the Turtles use for a fighting style is the same as the Foot...

Really it just makes no sense for them to wear the bandanas at all... if you start there, you can end there. Lol.

It also makes no sense to wear red ones vs different colored ones too... Are turtles color blind?

pferreira

10-07-2016, 05:52 AM

You're creating a strawman here, the problem isn't that aren't any arcs but that the self contained episodes don't work. Deus ex Machina, padding and contradictions, all common problems in the FW cartoon and you'd probably consider them problems in any other show. Even episodic writing needs to be well paced and make some narrative sense, sorry.Well I wouldn't say the self contained episodes were bad so what's the problem? The show never had an issue really with pacing bar maybe a couple of episodes and ok some stories were crazy but within those crazy stories they made sense.

As for your comment on the IDW series being made for profit, there is a rather important difference. The comics themselves are where the profits for IDW lies, the comics are the product so there has to be something keeping the reader interested in buying the book, like a good story. For Fred Wolf it was different, the show was just a means to sell the toys which meant that as long they sold the company could receive funding for the cartoon, as a result it was deemed more profitable to cut corners and the show itself suffered from it.Now that sounds like a strawman argument. From what I understand the cartoon was only funded by PlayMates for the first season. Season 2 onwards was funded by Fred Wolf or his investors. Please feel free to correct me if this is incorrect info. I'm not saying the IDW comic book is trying to sell toys, I'm saying it's not different to the Fred Wolf cartoon in keeping the brand alive by making money. You're trying to separate a cartoon you don't like from something you love and it isn't working. I can understand why writers like Brynne Chandler get annoyed with fans who think they weren't making an effort when they were.

neatoman

10-07-2016, 06:59 AM

Well I wouldn't say the self contained episodes were bad so what's the problem? The show never had an issue really with pacing bar maybe a couple of episodes and ok some stories were crazy but within those crazy stories they made sense.

... I have a problem with the pacing of the episodes, the show was constantly adding pointless scenes to fill out time. I have a problem a problem with the plots, as they are full of nonsensical turns. You might not have a problem with those issues, but I could easily point out what I think doesn't work.

Now that sounds like a strawman argument. From what I understand the cartoon was only funded by PlayMates for the first season. Season 2 onwards was funded by Fred Wolf or his investors. Please feel free to correct me if this is incorrect info. I'm not saying the IDW comic book is trying to sell toys, I'm saying it's not different to the Fred Wolf cartoon in keeping the brand alive by making money. You're trying to separate a cartoon you don't like from something you love and it isn't working. I can understand why writers like Brynne Chandler get annoyed with fans who think they weren't making an effort when they were.

"Playmates only funded season 1" my ass, it smells like an insane amount of BS. If that was true, why the constant influx of of things from the toyline? Why make episodes featuring Wingnut, Screwloose, Mondo Gecko, The Mutagen Man, Muckman, Slash, Scumbug, that weird mutagen toilet and whatever else if they weren't required to do so? Why not edit the episodes properly? Why rush the animation?

I'm not trying to seperate the FW cartoon from TMNT, I'm pointing out that it doesn't make any sense to say it wasn't mainly a toy commercial. As for "not different to the Fred Wolf cartoon in keeping the brand alive by making money.", please don't make that kind of excuse. It doesn't change the awful animation or writing, making money is not an excuse for poor quality.

As for effort, dude, these kinds of show were notorious for demanding quantity over quality and I seriously doubt FW TMNT wasn any different. Here's a qoute from Donald F. Glut on Transformers, he worked on plenty of cartoon from that era.

No one, not even the story editors, looked at these scripts very carefully. I seem to remember the show being on a really tight schedule, and we had to crank these scripts out fast. I wrote some of them in a single day, first draft, and they went almost immediately to the storyboard artists after Bryce or an assistant gave them a rather cursory read. We were not trying to create art, just get them done fast, and get paid...

None of the writing on this series, in my opinion, was good or passionate or, sometimes (my own included, like The Autobot Run) even adequate. But we got paid well for writing them fast.... I was never a fan of any of the characters.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070217131842/http://members.aol.com/tfencyc/interview_glut.html

Again, not from a FW writer but from a collegue of the FW writers and it really shows what working on these sort of shows was like.

FredWolfLeonardo

10-07-2016, 08:02 AM

neatoman

10-07-2016, 08:36 AM

Love the FW show to death, and I think its actually really good. I didn't even grow up with it, I began watching it when I was 15 and now I have almost completed the whole thing after many years, having learned about its existence quite sometime after I watched Nick and 2k3.

I can understand people who love the show to discuss it for enjoyment and even haters who mock it in a fun way, but what's the point of over-analyzing and being very serious about bad writing, plots and "objectively" poor what not? Is there really any enjoyment that comes out of it? Besides,FW bashing isn't really allowed here as far as I know so respect FW for the great show it is!

pferreira started to use strawman arguments and I felt the need to adress them. I don't really care wheter or not people enjoy the show, they can enjoy whatever the hell they want, but to say things like:

After neatoman's last response I asked original series writer Brynne Chandler about fans criticism of the lack of story arcs and the fact it was meant as nothing more than a 'cheap toy commercial'.

As if I or anyone else thinks the writing isn't bad for other reasons, that the writing only sucks because there aren't any story arcs, is ridiculous. Nobody was saying that episodic TV was bad or that the show should have a serialised narrative.

Andrew NDB

10-07-2016, 10:42 AM

From what I understand the cartoon was only funded by PlayMates for the first season.

Yeah, that sounds like horse puckey.

pferreira

10-07-2016, 11:08 AM

... I have a problem with the pacing of the episodes, the show was constantly adding pointless scenes to fill out time. I have a problem a problem with the plots, as they are full of nonsensical turns. You might not have a problem with those issues, but I could easily point out what I think doesn't work.Ok that's your opinion but I don't go around short changing a show for problems it didn't have.

"Playmates only funded season 1" my ass, it smells like an insane amount of BS. If that was true, why the constant influx of of things from the toyline? Why make episodes featuring Wingnut, Screwloose, Mondo Gecko, The Mutagen Man, Muckman, Slash, Scumbug, that weird mutagen toilet and whatever else if they weren't required to do so? Why not edit the episodes properly? Why rush the animation?From what I understand Playmates weren't interested in funding Season 2 onwards as they'd done what they set out to do. Fred Wolf bought the rights with help from investors. He made a deal with Playmates for them to continue making toys except they wouldn't be involved in funding for the series. As long as the toys were incorporated wherever possible into the series that would provide Playmates with profit while some of that would end up going into the Fred Wolf company. Why not edit the episodes properly? They were edited properly or are you talking about the European 'Hero Turtles' edits because that messed up the show. Why rush the animation? Simple, it was rushed because you have a syndicated cartoon series having to fulfill it's number of required episodes. You make 47 episodes for Season 3 and you're all expecting them to look perfect?! You really don't know anything about animation do you. :o

I'm not trying to seperate the FW cartoon from TMNT, I'm pointing out that it doesn't make any sense to say it wasn't mainly a toy commercial. As for "not different to the Fred Wolf cartoon in keeping the brand alive by making money.", please don't make that kind of excuse. It doesn't change the awful animation or writing, making money is not an excuse for poor quality.We know you don't have any respect for the 80s cartoon, you don't need to make fake excuses as to why you don't like it.

As for effort, dude, these kinds of show were notorious for demanding quantity over quality and I seriously doubt FW TMNT wasn any different. Here's a qoute from Donald F. Glut on Transformers, he worked on plenty of cartoon from that era. Again, not from a FW writer but from a collegue of the FW writers and it really shows what working on these sort of shows was like.Yeah but you're immediately assuming they didn't make any quality because of the quantity. I won't lie, that they had to crank scripts out however having chatted to Brynne Chandler every episode required a good idea and disregarding the writers work back then who worked on the show is wrong because they did what they could with the conditions. I know you don't believe this but they did actually care about their scripts. Animation/writing today could learn a lesson or two from back then, the good stuff, not the bad stuff obviously.

As if I or anyone else thinks the writing isn't bad for other reasons, that the writing only sucks because there aren't any story arcs, is ridiculous. Nobody was saying that episodic TV was bad or that the show should have a serialised narrative.That's one big complaint of the 80s cartoon series on here as well as with other cartoons elsewhere so yeah I'm right to ask. You yourself said the purpose of the 80s cartoon was to be a 'cheap toy commercial'. I responded back with a quote from one of the writers that they did more than that, that they took more care.

Love the FW show to death, and I think its actually really good. I didn't even grow up with it, I began watching it when I was 15 and now I have almost completed the whole thing after many years, having learned about its existence quite sometime after I watched Nick and 2k3.

I can understand people who love the show to discuss it for enjoyment and even haters who mock it in a fun way, but what's the point of over-analyzing and being very serious about bad writing, plots and "objectively" poor what not? Is there really any enjoyment that comes out of it? Besides,FW bashing isn't really allowed here as far as I know so respect FW for the great show it is!Thank you! It's nice to see young people enjoying a 1980s cartoon series, I'm glad it doesn't put off every young viewer because of what's seen as an outdated style and not being modern enough. You raise got points as well. :)

neatoman

10-07-2016, 11:19 AM

Yeah, that sounds like horse puckey.

Yeah, there's no way Playmates didn't have some major influence after season 1. Even if there were other investors, Playmates had to be amongst them or else the show wouldn't promote the toys. I suspect Fred Wolf himself claims otherwise because easier to promote the DVD/iTunes if you don't admit it was just to promote toys throughout. What sounds easier to market, a hit show by a small studio or a corner cutting advertisement?

You know, the funny thing about this is that season one is generally agreed upon as the best season. So if this nonsense about Playmates only being involved with season one is somehow true, that would mean the meddling of a toy company was helping the quality of the show:lol:

neatoman

10-07-2016, 01:25 PM

Ok that's your opinion but I don't go around short changing a show for problems it didn't have.

From what I understand Playmates weren't interested in funding Season 2 onwards as they'd done what they set out to do. Fred Wolf bought the rights with help from investors. He made a deal with Playmates for them to continue making toys except they wouldn't be involved in funding for the series. As long as the toys were incorporated wherever possible into the series that would provide Playmates with profit while some of that would end up going into the Fred Wolf company. Why not edit the episodes properly? They were edited properly or are you talking about the European 'Hero Turtles' edits because that messed up the show. Why rush the animation? Simple, it was rushed because you have a syndicated cartoon series having to fulfill it's number of required episodes. You make 47 episodes for Season 3 and you're all expecting them to look perfect?! You really don't know anything about animation do you. :o

We know you don't have any respect for the 80s cartoon, you don't need to make fake excuses as to why you don't like it.

Yeah but you're immediately assuming they didn't make any quality because of the quantity. I won't lie, that they had to crank scripts out however having chatted to Brynne Chandler every episode required a good idea and disregarding the writers work back then who worked on the show is wrong because they did what they could with the conditions. I know you don't believe this but they did actually care about their scripts. Animation/writing today could learn a lesson or two from back then, the good stuff, not the bad stuff obviously.

That's one big complaint of the 80s cartoon series on here as well as with other cartoons elsewhere so yeah I'm right to ask. You yourself said the purpose of the 80s cartoon was to be a 'cheap toy commercial'. I responded back with a quote from one of the writers that they did more than that, that they took more care.

Thank you! It's nice to see young people enjoying a 1980s cartoon series, I'm glad it doesn't put off every young viewer because of what's seen as an outdated style and not being modern enough. You raise got points as well. :)

Ok I'm just gonna give you a comprehensive list of the reasons I doubt they really cared about the quality.

The cranked out scripts, the "at least had to have a good idea" part seems like the lowest quality standard you could have for a script.
Why yes, cranking out 47 episodes out in 6 months will result in bad animation, that's why you shouldn't do it. Although that doesn't really explain why shorter seasons like season 2 or 9 don't look very good either...
What I meant with proper editing was that they could have fixed the animation errors or the sound mixing errors, but they didn't. It might have been harder back then but they could have (and should have) done it anyway.

As for your explaination of the deal... It seems like a very strange deal to make. It sounds like Fred Wolf and his investors basically agreed to produce a toy commercial free of charge, why not just make a deal that makes the show disconnected from the toyline entirely if he was going to pay for it himself?

pferreira

10-08-2016, 12:53 PM

The cranked out scripts, the "at least had to have a good idea" part seems like the lowest quality standard you could have for a script.Nope, good scripts start with good ideas. That's how scripts are done. I know you kids have been brought up on scripts made by committee but a good idea for a script and it then being expanded into a full story with dialogue is how scripts are actually and should be done.

Why yes, cranking out 47 episodes out in 6 months will result in bad animation, that's why you shouldn't do it. Although that doesn't really explain why shorter seasons like season 2 or 9 don't look very good either...Haven't you read up on any of the history of the Fred Wolf show? 47 episodes were needed for Season 3 to make up the syndicated amount that was necessary, I think 65. Again, you're not looking at the wider picture of the time. Fred Wolf Films or MWS are or were an indie company. They ain't Disney or Warner Bros animation. You're expecting quality animation for every episode from an indie company? Please do some research before you criticise the show, please. I know it sounds like I'm being harsh but you can't criticise something that you clearly haven't got enough background info on. I'm not an expert but wondering why a studio does 47 episodes shows a lack of knowledge.

What I meant with proper editing was that they could have fixed the animation errors or the sound mixing errors, but they didn't. It might have been harder back then but they could have (and should have) done it anyway.I agree and I'd love them to go back and do it now for blu-ray. The fact was Fred Wolf's company is an indie company with limited time and resources. They didn't have the budget for writer getaways or to hire TMS for every episode.

As for your explaination of the deal... It seems like a very strange deal to make. It sounds like Fred Wolf and his investors basically agreed to produce a toy commercial free of charge, why not just make a deal that makes the show disconnected from the toyline entirely if he was going to pay for it himself?Playmates paid for the first season. They didn't want to pay for the following seasons although they were eager to support the show in toys once the show became popular. What you're suggesting was not what they were going for because it was only with the first season's success Fred Wolf got the investment for future seasons. Your Transformers example is kind of flawed because that was mostly a toy commercial. Fred Wolf says on the Turtle Power documentary he didn't want the 80s Turtles cartoon to be simply a toy commercial which is why the series had more character development than Transformers did. Hasbro's mandate with a Transformers episode was to show their range of toys. Mirage just made a deal with Playmates to help them develop toys which could be incorporated into the cartoon wherever possible.

Yeah, there's no way Playmates didn't have some major influence after season 1. Even if there were other investors, Playmates had to be amongst them or else the show wouldn't promote the toys. I suspect Fred Wolf himself claims otherwise because easier to promote the DVD/iTunes if you don't admit it was just to promote toys throughout. What sounds easier to market, a hit show by a small studio or a corner cutting advertisement?

You know, the funny thing about this is that season one is generally agreed upon as the best season. So if this nonsense about Playmates only being involved with season one is somehow true, that would mean the meddling of a toy company was helping the quality of the show:lol:As confirmed by Fred Wolf in the Turtle Power documentary, taken from IMDB trivia:

"With a successful television premiere and five episodes that were available for repeats in spot syndication, Playmates shifted their focus toward the planned summer 1988 launch of the action figure line. The company was unwilling to commit funding for additional episodes beyond the miniseries. Fred Wolf wanted to continue the momentum and arranged a deal with Sachs-Finley that would give him ownership of the first five episodes, and then began the long process of trying to secure funding for the additional thirteen. All three major networks passed on the series and Wolf ended up making a deal with Group W, the TV division of Westinghouse. However, the budget was too steep for Group W and Fred Wolf offered to lower cost by a million dollars by offering to subsidize the show himself. It was a crapshoot on Wolf's part as he didn't have the money at the time and depended on one of the job Wolf was bidding on outside of the turtles. The crapshoot worked and the other stuff came through."

There's your humble pie. :lol:

Tetsu Deinonychus

10-29-2016, 12:21 PM

While I understand why most versions of TMNT go with the individual colors, I have always wanted to see some TMNT animation with the Mirage-true all red masks.

Obviously, they won't do this for a whole TV series or a big budget theatrical movie, but I would love if they did like WB does for the DC comics heroes and made a line of Direct to DVD animated movies aimed at the hardcore fans.

Then we could get straight-from-Mirage story adaptations for adult fans. Imagine animated films based on memorable Mirage story-lines, taken right from the comics, drawn in as close to that issue's art style as is feasible for animation, complete with the mild swears, character deaths, and of course the all red masks.

And, just as WB can make DTV Batman movies based on Dark Knight Returns, Killing Joke, and now a "60s Batman" based one. The "TMNT multiverse" films wouldn't have to stick to just one version of TMNT. The door would be open to straight from the comics adaptations of Archie and IDW story-arcs as well. Even an original story set in the Fred Wolf TMNT universe would be do-able. This would have something for the whole fan-base.

Back on topic: For anyone bringing up that it would be hard to tell the Turtles apart outside of a comic, you're forgetting that they wouldn't have to sound alike. They'd still be voiced by different actors and have different voices (and for the hard-of hearing, the captions could simply indicate which Turtle is speaking during scenes when it might be hard to tell). So, that should clear up the confusion.

Anyway, while I must admit there are moments in the Mirage comics where it's hard to tell which Turtle is which. I don't think those moments happen very often. And, compare that to mask-coloring errors which happened just as often in the Archie (and from what I hear IDW), and way more often in the FW show, where when I was a kid half-the-fun was playing "spot the cel-painting-errors". I think it evens out.

miru

09-18-2018, 07:37 PM

Only on a corporate, "What is probably going to make us the most money, historically?" level. With the possible exception of IDW, the colored masks have never been (re)born out of any other sort of agenda.

I don't think the old adage about, "if you try to please everybody, you will please nobody" is too far from the mark. I mean, I'm not so anal that I'm absolutely against intrinsically good elements from the children's spinoff stuff making it into new mainstream material... but it's got to be intrinsically good stuff. TMNT jambalaya, or making the creative puzzle "How do we rearrange these existing pieces from all these children's spinoff universes into something new?" instead of "How do we take the true spirit of the TMNT and come at it with a new, cohesive creative vision and really make it pop?" just seems pretty... I want to say lazy, but it's not (because I can imagine it being a lot of work in itself), but just plain shortsighted and the snake eating its own tail. Borderline fanfiction (which... it is, in a way, because now it is literally the fans bringing back to life their childhoods playing with toys on bigger platforms). I mean, King Tut doesn't need to be dusted off in Batman just because some kids laughed at him once in the 60s show and #nostalgia. Sure, I'm absolutely certain a talented writer could make a kickass version of King Tut that's awesome and scary and everything that character wasn't on the show... but if you're going to do all that, why even use that character? Would it be so off-the-wall to leave that character on the rack and -- gasp -- make something new?

You’re right! Ever since the buyout, the franchise has picked up intrinsically good elements and re-used them to make them staples. Everything that makes the franchise recognizable, but with a fresh feeling and tone to the whole deal. Everything feels consistent and balanced. Occasionally, DC will dig up some obscure villain in an attempt to salvage them. Not all of these second chances are successful, but many are. We all know about Harley, and King Tut and Roxy Rocket have worked like charms as well. Some others, like Lock-Up and Sin Tzu have been less successful.

The only version that really lifts things up for the sake of nostalgia is, surprise surprise, the awful PD films. Any other time this is done, it’s for a one-off joke or to try and make SOMETHING out of NOTHING, Spinning straw into gold. IDW has been completely successful, Nick has mostly spun straw into steel, and the PD films have all failed. Just one out of four major incarnations failed at this.

On topic, I could still see this happening again, with them wearing red as part of a trick on the enemy.