PSA Leif Bo Staff being sold

[tmntgeoff]

8)I wanted to start a discussion thread about how many Bo staff movie props that have surfaced over the last year and a half. Several collectors have pointed this out and I wanted to see what everyones thoughts are.

Leif Tilden who was the suit actor for the first 2 original movies has sold a total of 7 Bo staff's to collectors, and has listed another tonight on ebay.
he could have sold more privately but I am unsure.

When I had first spoken to him it was via private message on ebay back in November of 2015. I noticed a bo was sold recently in completed listings section and was saddened to see that I missed out on another movie prop.

I contacted him to see if he had any other movie props that he had also taken home after filming.

He stated he did have 2 other Bo's but he would be keeping 1 to pass along to his kids. I gave him my email so he could send some photos.

These are what he sent below

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/image1_zps7xccdsnn.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/image1_zps7xccdsnn.jpg.html)

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/IMG_1431_zpseio9dm1h.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/IMG_1431_zpseio9dm1h.jpg.html)


At this point I had some doubt, as the screenshots looked nothing like the photos he sent. The leather was completely different. He stated this was due to the bo being one he carried around and they were made this way to have better grip.

I went ahead and sent his screenshots to show him that the bo had a chip of wood missing at the end and it had a twine style leather instead.

A week later I saw a post on Facebook which showed another collector had purchased a Bo and had it signed at a comic con. I contacted him to see if it was purchased recently, thinking Leif had sold it from under me.

He told me he had bought it several months prior.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/Screenshot_20161219-214517_zps1ramczes.png (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/Screenshot_20161219-214517_zps1ramczes.png.html)
So now he sold one privately to the collector, sold one on ebay and was offering to sell one to me while saying he had 2 left. This would make a total of 4 at the time. I was starting to get suspicious and spoke with a fellow Drome member who has had a long history of collecting movie props. He was also a part of the acquisition of the full weapon set that sold. According to the property master only 3 sets of weapons were ever produced. The member pointed out the Bo for the 2nd film was thinner and had less leather. The one Leif was selling didnt seem to be real.


When I spoke to Leif he stated there were several produced and that he had one in storage that matched the screenshots I provided. So this would make a 5th Bo

After a month or so of waiting he finally sent me a photo. This time the cord matched the style but the # of cross patterns was not right. It matched more to the 2nd film but still the same thickness of part 1.
Also the staff was stained a dark color instead of bare wood like the first film which. Also matches part 2 more.

At this point I told him i wasnt interested as the leather still didnt match and that I couldnt screen match with the alteration of the wood. Leif noted the leather came loose over the years, and he was having it repaired. After I declined he listed it on ebay and sold it for about $3500. This was back in January of 2016 and since then he has sold 5 on top of the 2 that the leather was way off.


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/received_1204679576238154_zpsvaabx8xb.jpeg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/received_1204679576238154_zpsvaabx8xb.jpeg.html)

Im really not trying to slander Leif, and I can take this down if members think I am, but I wanted everyone aware that he has sold 7 Bo's and he continues to have more. He is now starting to add a hologram decal to the wood to show its real but this only confuses collectors who have already bought one previously. recently He even had Kevin Eastman and Michelen Sisti sign one he has currently on ebay.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/Screenshot_20161219-214225_zps4hoz2ao4.png (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/Screenshot_20161219-214225_zps4hoz2ao4.png.html)

[Powder]

I have been curious about this myself. Seemed like way too many were being sold. I really hope that a turtle talent wouldn't prey on innocent fans, but it's not looking too good.

[d_osborn]

The hologram is PSA, which only authenticates the signatures. Has anyone that purchased one noticed a fresh varnish or leather smell. :lol:

Yeah, this could get interesting. Those things have been consistently bringing pretty big $$$$, plus are easily reproduced. I don't think Tilden exactly a mustache-twirling villain, but it's easy to see how someone could succumb to the temptation of easy money and justify cashing in on the implied provenance that their name/association brings. Easy cash can sway temptations. A fool and his money, yadda yadda.

This sort of thing is exactly why I don't do more with props. I've had the chance to pick up some pretty iconic TMNT pieces and just couldn't pull the trigger due to that little voice inside my head. This little nerd hobby is now a big money industry, with a bunch of forgers and less-than-honest people looking to squeeze money from unsuspecting, non-industry fans that might not ever know the difference. There's nothing worse than someone's key collection piece being revealed as a fake. I've seen it happen many times in the prop hobby, and it's not pretty.

Of course, devil's advocate-- it's possible he had a small cache of weapons. Maybe some that didn't match were from other films or MA competitions. Maybe he found a few more. Maybe more bo props were built in case of wood breakage, stunt use, etc. Perhaps the TMNT 2 prop master is misremembering or using low-production numbers to inflate value of the props he was selling. 20+ years is a LONG time, things can me misremembered, forgotten, etc.

Production documentation helps, but then again, the Golden Harvest TMNT movies were pretty low-rent indie productions-- that type documentation from the prop dept might not even exist.

Know what you're getting. Do your research. Trust your gut. Hopefully this won't turn into a Tilden witch hunt, but like Powder said-- it's not looking too good.

[tmntgeoff]

Very well put Derek. There are just too many red flags that I wanted to at least let everyone know.

I was not the only person who has noticed these either.

*Original bo being sold had wrong leather.
*Bo's were altered when they should be left untouched.
*No Bo sold has been screen matched.
*None have had the identifying mark like a chipped end

I believe you are right with the amount produced though. Since the Bo from the 2nd film was indeed thinner there could have been 3 made for part 1 and 3 made for part 2.

The sai,katana and nunchucku were used in the first and 2nd films, but the leather was changed for the 2nd film.

The issue I see is all the Bo's sold have been the thick version. 1 of the thin versions sold with the complete set of props back in 2014 but that was not sold by Leif, but the property master.

This is where my props came from originally so I have no doubts mine are real

[tmntgeoff]

A few other things I'd like to show. He stated "the staff" is the only prop he had left
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20161220-095415_zpsbiz7qipm.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20161220-095415_zpsbiz7qipm.jpg.html)


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20161220-095326_zpsabp624eo.png (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20161220-095326_zpsabp624eo.png.html)

When I showed him a photo of the Bo staff recently purchased at the time from the complete set of movie props he said that he had never seen a Bo like that and it might be from the red film. You can clearly see this matches the 2nd film due to the leather cross pattern only having 5 when the first film had 14 x patterns.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20161220-100008_zpslv2khyjr.jpg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Screenshot_20161220-100008_zpslv2khyjr.jpg.html)

After he stated he had another Bo in storage with a leather lace which needed repairs he sends me a pic that looks almost like the pic I had sent earlier. (Pic above)

Photo that was attached in his email enlarged below.


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k27/exotik4doorcivic/image1_zpsygw8xcp9.jpeg (http://s84.photobucket.com/user/exotik4doorcivic/media/image1_zpsygw8xcp9.jpeg.html)

[IndigoErth]

If it turns out that he is indeed taking advantage, that is incredibly disappointing. :tsad: Either way, I don't know how anyone could do that or similar and live with themselves.

[tmntgeoff]

If it turns out that he is indeed taking advantage, that is incredibly disappointing. :tsad: Either way, I don't know how anyone could do that or similar and live with themselves.

I was more or less trying to bring it to everyone's attention as I just got more and more suspicios each time I saw a Bo sell.

[OA]

Id love to get a prop someday but I know nothing about how to get a legit one so at these $$$$ I'll have to pass...

[bretttheleofan]

I personally have a large production made and screen used collection from other movies ( no TMNT yet) and I would stay far away from these. Too many red flags for me. You don't always need provenance as a good screen match is the best you can get, these however are just too convenient with zero matching qualities. It's very sad and very shady.

[NinjaRap]

When it comes to buying movie props, it's your job to be your own investigator, to find out all the facts, so you can weigh the evidence and make a smart, informed decision that you would feel comfortable living with. You can't let anyone speak for the piece--the piece has to speak for itself.

Click on the spoiler if you want a little insight into the kind of probing that goes on with this stuff.

In the case of the full set of Turtle weapons discovered in Hawaii, it was accompanied by a substantial amount of documentation, including a letter of authenticity from the TMNT II prop master (who also worked in the prop department during the 1990 movie). He verified via e-mail that those weapons and letter did come from him.

Cool, but the authentication process didn't stop there, because the weapons still had to be screen-matched. That's easier said than done. The 1990 movie is so dimly lit, which makes comparing the finer details difficult. And in TMNT II, the Turtles hardly ever brandish their weapons at all.

Lobby cards, posters, magazine pictures, and behind-the-scenes footage had to be poured over instead. After hours of research, the bo could be positively matched to a TMNT II promotional image, which at least proves that the staff was held during the making of that movie. The rest of the weapons couldn't be matched with absolute certainty at the time, but it was determined that they were designed in the same style as the screen-used ones (the known replicas out there didn't even come close).

Fast forward to this year, and a pile of never-before-published Polaroids and photo prints taken on the set of TMNT II was unearthed. They revealed Raphael with a sai that has its leather patterned exactly as the one that was found in Hawaii, which further adds credence to the weapon set as a whole.
As for Tilden's auction, there's obviously excellent provenance here, since it's being sold by him, but the description leaves a lot to be desired. He even butchered poor "Misha Sista's" name.

If this is, indeed, Tilden's eighth bo, how could he possibly remember which were actually used a quarter of a century ago? And by "used," does he mean screen-used, production-used, or something else? Prop terminology can be very slippery.

While it's true that Turtle actors were gifted mementos like the weapons after filming wrapped, going home with eight examples of the same prop is hard to swallow. How could he have walked away with so many? Or a better question might be, why would he have walked away with so many?

For $6,000, you would think that he could provide a little more information. Instead, most of his write-up focuses on the signatures, which is just plain weird. He already went through the trouble of posting pictures of himself and Eastman with the bo, why would a certificate of authenticity for the autographs even be necessary? It feels like a smokescreen to distract you from what's really important: proof of the item's usage in the film.

This paperwork comes from a company called Coolwaters Productions LLC, which happens to list Tilden as a celebrity client (https://www.coolwatersprods.com/063ltilden.html). According to its About Us page, the president of Coolwaters used to work for an outfit called Icons Authentic Replicas, which was "mainly known for creating prop replicas from various films" (https://www.coolwatersprods.com/about-us.html). If anything, the documentation might actually muddy the waters even more.

Serious collectors generally frown upon signatures on an original prop in the first place, since they see that as taking away from the history of the piece. Autographs could actually hurt the value of a prop in the long run. Tilden isn't the first to do this; Mikey's stuntman Nick Palma wrote on an original TMNT II nunchaku, thanking someone named "Bob," so, if that ever comes up on the market again, and your name isn't Bob, you may not want to be reminded of that every single time that you glance down at it.

Speaking of depreciation, Tilden apparently not only took it upon himself to repair some of these staffs, he also waterproofed them like you would outdoor furniture: http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtle-movie-1789998775.

There are too many issues and unanswered questions, and since we're talking about nothing more than a wooden stick with some leather attached to it, potential bidders should take extreme caution. Always look before you leap.

[d_osborn]

For those of you interested in original prop and movie production ephemera, NinjaRap Mike speaks the truth. He's probably one of the most cautious, well-researched collectors I know.

[tmntgeoff]

A fellow member that wanted to remain nameless on the forum pointed this out that I wanted to share.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=M2WpvRgwPJw
At around the 2:45 ish mark Leif explains he purchased a dowel from the hardware store and made his own bo for his audition. His hand movement also shows as if he's wrapping a grip.

There also have been several different lengths sold. 48 inches, 56 inches and 60 inches.

When I spoke to Leif about this before this was his response.

"There were also different sizes made. Some for tight fight scenes, some lighter and thinner to make it easy for stunt guys. Others were thicker for camera purposes. Also there were some cut in half because the staff would hit my legs when I ran.

It took many styles, many sizes depending on what was needed.

Like I said there were also rubber ones. There was also one painted green in case they wanted to cgi the weapon.

Hope that helps .."

What doesn't add up is there is really only 1 Bo style seen every every scene.

Like my katanas/sai the leather wrap changes directions throughout the film and I believe the Bo leather isn't exact in every scene but all of them were un stained and the same length/diameter

[Raph]

NinjaRap is right.

Leif is nice, but kinda strange :roll:
I contacted him years ago and he thought I was such a cool guy that he promised me his last bo (for free).
And now suddenly he has a few!
Do the math I'd say...

[tmntgeoff]

For those of you interested in original prop and movie production ephemera, NinjaRap Mike speaks the truth. He's probably one of the most cautious, well-researched collectors I know.

I agree, Mike has a wealth of knowledge when it comes to the turtles movies. It's a shame we don't talk anymore.

Mike, are you able to post any of the poloroids you spoke of in the last post? Maybe In the movie section? I obtained several photos from the prop master which I will post up one which shows the sai pair I own and the leather matches identical. I was also able to screen match them to the junkyard fight scene.

The sai on his left belt matches with distinct markings and then a few seconds later the same sai is on the right side of his belt.

[tmntgeoff]

There is a discussion online that there are 4 current Bo staffs for sale on eBay. Several of them have bids so I'm just bumping the thread to advise collectors to bid with caution.