On a scale from one to ten, how terrible are Bebop and Rocksteady?

[neatoman]

What it says in the title, "terrible" as in poorly written and/or annoying, not some other definition of that word. For the sake of simplicity, let's just try to stick to the FW versions, as they are the most prominent.

[Coola Yagami]

What it says in the title, "terrible" as in poorly written and/or annoying, not some other definition of that word. For the sake of simplicity, let's just try to stick to the FW versions, as they are the most prominent.

It's hard to say because at the time, dumb and unreliable henchmen were kind of a thing. Back then the bad guys were either all stupid, or they had a smart one and a dumb one, or we had a serious boss but he was stuck with dumb underlings. Shredder, of course, was the serious boss in this case (somewhat), so he got stuck with the stupid underlings.

In some episodes they were better than others. Sometimes they got so bad they could barely walk across a room without tripping all over themselves. The episode that bothered me the most was when they were with their old gang and they were actually afraid of them, despite the fact that as friggin mutant animals they should be able to take their old gang down like nothing.

I'd say 9 out of 10. At least their voices weren't as annoying as Scratch and Grounder.

[plastroncafe]

Which is the high-end? And which is the low end?

Because I'd like to give them one of the lowest scores possible, but I'm not sure which Way on the Spectrum to vote

[neatoman]

Which is the high-end? And which is the low end?

Because I'd like to give them one of the lowest scores possible, but I'm not sure which Way on the Spectrum to vote

1 is not very terrible, 10 is the most terrible.

[Coola Yagami]

I change my 9 to a 2.

[pferreira]

Terrible?! They were terrific! They were one of the key components of the FW series. Fun and funny characters and always great to see. You can have your mad scientist episodes, those two were hilarious. :lol:

I'd say 9 out of 10. At least their voices weren't as annoying as Scratch and Grounder.To be fair they were supposed to be, that's what made them getting blown up etc so funny.

[plastroncafe]

1 is not very terrible, 10 is the most terrible.

Then my vote goes to eleven.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Then my vote goes to eleven.

And mine would be 0.

[pferreira]

And mine would be 0.If I could pick 0 I would. They were awesome. :)

[plastroncafe]

And mine would be 0.

Hooray! Yay for us!

[Utrommaniac]

I went for a 4.

If only because their potential for FW on their own had some missed opportunities. And especially for the points that they were actually really witty - which is when I liked them at their best.

Especially the "snow day" bit.

[Donnie]

10. I can't stand them in any iteration, cartoon, movie, or comic.

[neatoman]

Hm, interesting. So far opions are more polarised than I expected.

[CyberCubed]

10. I can't stand them in any iteration, cartoon, movie, or comic.

What's wrong with Nick or IDW's versions? They're all fairly different from one another.

Hm, interesting. So far opions are more polarised than I expected.

That's only because if you click the poll choices, sdp jokingly voted for every single option. Because the poll is irrelevant really to the type of role they had in the series.

[neatoman]

That's only because if you click the poll choices, sdp jokingly voted for every single option. Because the poll is irrelevant really to the type of role they had in the series.

No it isn't, either you like them, you don't like them or you have mixed feelings about them. What role they actually played is what's irrelevant here. The hate Jar Jar Binks garners isn't really relevant to his role in the movie, but it doesn't change that people hate him.

[IndigoErth]

I'm just going to go for the middle at a 5. Not fantastic, nor awful. The ways that they are "terrible" have always seemed, in my view, very intentional, so it's a rather fake "terrible." They were what they were intended.

[pferreira]

Hm, interesting. So far opions are more polarised than I expected.You expect everyone to hate Bebop and Rocksteady? Really? :roll:

[plastroncafe]

I would expect a normal distribution of responses personally.
That things are polarized is pretty interesting.

[MrPliggins]

They were fine for the show they were in. But I kind of agree with Laird that they should've been left in the '80s. The characters right down to their names are epitomes of the '80s. That being said I haven't read much IDW, so they may be utilized well there.

[inaheap]

I will say that sometimes they seemed a little too dumb, but most of the time they were the bungling brawn I wanted them to be as a kid.

[Andrew NDB]

What's wrong with Nick or IDW's versions? They're all fairly different from one another.

https://res.cloudinary.com/teepublic/image/private/s--JO_kA6qb--/t_Preview/b_rgb:ffffff,c_limit,f_jpg,h_630,q_90,w_630/v1507228381/production/designs/1951667_1.jpg

[Spike Spiegel]

I kind of wish they didn't exist outside of the OT and maybe IDW. They're not really all that memorable, at least to me.

When I saw the OT as a kid, I always thought Shredder/Krang's schemes would have been more successful if not for having to depend on those two.

[mrmaczaps]

I dislike ALL versions of Bebop & Rocksteady... ugh.

[Coola Yagami]

I kind of wish they didn't exist outside of the OT and maybe IDW. They're not really all that memorable, at least to me.

When I saw the OT as a kid, I always thought Shredder/Krang's schemes would have been more successful if not for having to depend on those two.

You have a bit of a point. It's not like Robotnik keeps using Scratch and Grounder in future cartoons or games.

[bwwd]

For me theyre great at what theyre supposed to do - be dumb, ill vote 10 :lol:

[Coola Yagami]

For me theyre great at what theyre supposed to do - be dumb, ill vote 10 :lol:

Exactly. Times have changed, and we are past the era of incompetent bumbling idiot henchmen. Villains nowadays kill their minions for their failures, not keep them around and whine about 'being surrounded by idiots'.

[Powder]

I don't really know how to vote. I love them in their element (the original series), but as far as I'm concerned, they should have stayed there.

That said, though I'd much prefer they not be included in new iterations, I have enjoyed all of their current versions for what they are.

[newfan]

I don't really care for them, (not sure how many versions they are in) while I can appreciate some comic relief with the villains, not so much that.

[CyberCubed]

Technically there are now 5 versions of them:

1. Original cartoon Bebop/Rocksteady
2. Archie TMNT Adventures Bebop/Rocksteady
3. Nick Bebop/Rocksteady
4. IDW Bebop/Rocksteady
5. Platinum Dunes Michael Bay Bebop/Rocksteady

They appeared in the 4kids series during Turtles Forever but those were the crossover versions rather than new incarnations. Then there's the videogame versions which were only loosely based on the cartoons.

Come to think of it all the incarnations of Bebop/Rocksteady are fairly different than each other. I don't know why people feel they're same across incarnations.

[sdp]

Well if you give me an option to vote for everything when you should only be allowed to vote for one then it's not my fault, it just tempts me. I also tend to vote for the underdog in polls even if it doesn't represent my opinion 100%.

I didn't like R&B as a kid but I grew to like them when I got back into TMNT and now I'm a big fan. I do think they can work in a more serious context, I always found them intimidating in TMNT II: The Arcade Game and in the action figures, in fact that's why I didn't like them as a kid in the cartoon, they weren't the badasses they were in my mind. Same with Slash.


I don't really know how to vote. I love them in their element (the original series), but as far as I'm concerned, they should have stayed there.

That said, though I'd much prefer they not be included in new iterations, I have enjoyed all of their current versions for what they are.

You prefer not to have them included and yet you have enjoyed all current versions? :lol: I understand you it just didn't come out very clear.

[Shark_Blade]

They're not even terrible, far from it.

Teribble is Ch'rell as Shredder. What a reductive Kraang wannabe disgusting blob.

[Andrew NDB]

They can't really exist in a thing we're supposed to take seriously. At all. At the very least, in a thing where we're supposed to take Shredder and the Foot Clan seriously, if they're to employ them.

"But what if we make them super gritty and serious and competant?" Then that's not Bebop and Rocksteady.

Plus, they're examples of the ooze behaving dumbly. Whether it's "touch this and then touch the ooze, then you're half of that!" or "it's your ancient animal genes come to roost after ooze exposure!"

[CyberCubed]

Teribble is Ch'rell as Shredder. What a reductive Kraang wannabe disgusting blob.

We barely saw Ch'rell himself since they used Oroku Saki throughout the series even after the Utrom reveal. And what difference does it make? Ch'rell is what a 2k3 version of Krang would have been like, plus we also discover there was a real human Oroku Saki from ancient Japan in Season 5 anyway.

[Chabrendeki]

They can't really exist in a thing we're supposed to take seriously. At all. At the very least, in a thing where we're supposed to take Shredder and the Foot Clan seriously, if they're to employ them.


A bunch of young mutated turtles, who fight like ninjas are a little goofy too, to be honest. That kind of contradiction between serious and funny is an integral part of the franchise. The question is more likely: how far do you wan't to go with that?

I think, the FW cartoon pushed that a little too far sometimes (for my taste at least). But I see a potential in the two characters.

I've read the IDW comics till the Northampton arc yet, and I think they have managed to present these guys as worthy opponents. Even the Nick series had moments where the two weren't that goofy.

So I don't think just because their source is in the FW cartoon, this two guys are bad characters. That would be a bit prejudiced.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

"But what if we make them super gritty and serious and competant?" Then that's not Bebop and Rocksteady.

Bebop and Rocksteady were never very competent, but there is a precedent for making them more serious and aggressive, as it is how they were in the First (and to a certain extent, the second) season of the Original Cartoon before they became more comedic and childlike.

[Andrew NDB]

A bunch of young mutated turtles, who fight like ninjas are a little goofy too, to be honest.

If one were to follow Crisler's Law (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Crisler%27s%20Law), I suppose.

there is a precedent for making them more serious and aggressive, as it is how they were in the First (and to a certain extent, the second) season of the Original Cartoon before they became more comedic and childlike.

Maybe they were a twee more "serious and aggressive" in the first season, but they certainly were absolutely comedic and childlike even in their first appearances. It's arguably their hallmark "charm." Fine in the Fred Wolf show, radioactive in anything aiming to be taken even semi-seriously.

[Chabrendeki]

Yes, okay, Crislers Law... but you missed my point.

You say, you can accept serious stories about teenage mutant ninja turtles, but you can't imagine any possible incarnation of B&R being treated serously?

Is it possible, that you are arguing the whole time with Crislers Law - just not with the Turtles but with B&R?

Don't think about them as menacing... let's forget that. How about an introspective one? To be humiliated and dehumanised to mere animals by selfish people and forced to be hollow mercenaries, humans treated like frenzied war dogs.
To find themselfs in a state where any other chance to a socialized life is impossible, than to bow themselfs the will of their bosses, and find themselfs in battles they do not wish for. That could be something, huh?

[Andrew NDB]

Yes, okay, Crislers Law... but you missed my point.

You say, you can accept serious stories about teenage mutant ninja turtles, but you can't imagine any possible incarnation of B&R being treated serously?

Is it possible, that you are arguing the whole time with Crislers Law - just not with the Turtles but with B&R?

Don't think about them as menacing... let's forget that. How about an introspective one? To be humiliated and dehumanised to mere animals by selfish people and forced to be hollow mercenaries, humans treated like frenzied war dogs.
To find themselfs in a state where any other chance to a socialized life is impossible, than to bow themselfs the will of their bosses, and find themselfs in battles they do not wish for. That could be something, huh?

OK. Just make them not ooze-derived (something else, anything), or connected (certainly not employed by!) to the Foot or Shredder and then they'd be remotely stomachable.

Though at that point... why even do so at all? They're not so intrinsically connected to the TMNT outside of nostalgia for the children's cartoon spinoff stuff. They didn't even appear in any films until the last one, which was a failure.

[Utrommaniac]

Don't think about them as menacing... let's forget that. How about an introspective one? To be humiliated and dehumanised to mere animals by selfish people and forced to be hollow mercenaries, humans treated like frenzied war dogs.
To find themselves in a state where any other chance to a socialized life is impossible, than to bow themselves the will of their bosses, and find themselves in battles they do not wish for. That could be something, huh?

Why yes, I would like that very much. That's a pretty good perspective to consider.

[Chabrendeki]

OK. Just make them not ooze-derived (something else, anything), or connected (certainly not employed by!) to the Foot or Shredder and then they'd be remotely stomachable.

Though at that point... why even do so at all? They're not so intrinsically connected to the TMNT outside of nostalgia for the children's cartoon spinoff stuff. They didn't even appear in any films until the last one, which was a failure.

Yeah, that's a point. But don't forget, that the cartoon is to a lot of people the definitve version of the Turtles (certainly I'm not happy with that, but that's a fact). And they were prominent characters there. So they are and remain deeply connected to the franchise.

Let's say so: what is it, that is "intrinsically connected to the TMNT"? Only the four turtles and maybe Splinter. Everything else could be thrown out and be reinvented (just think on the Mirage out of canon issues). That wouldn't make you happy either...

My problem is not what is already there, but how it is used. And if it is used well, I'm happy with it.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, that's a point. But don't forget, that the cartoon is to a lot of people the definitve version of the Turtles

Screw that, and screw them. They didn't even turn up for the last movie, which was exclusively catered to them.

But before you misread, let's be fair. Hey, screw the Mirage fans, too! Screw all TMNT pre-existing TMNT fans. I'm not even being facetious. It shouldn't be "for" any pre-existing fans. TMNT isn't even that big right now that it can rest on those laurels and again, that didn't even save the last movie.

A new, successful TMNT movie can rise on its own merit. Learn from the mistakes of old, attempt a new reimagining of the core principle of the source material. Try that in a big way, and see what happens. It can't be worse than what they've been doing, I say. The audience will come or it won't... that's more a marketing thing than anything else anyway in the game of trailer cutting and whatnot, and certainly not indicative of a "We need to make it JUST LIKE THIS because this is what worked for toddlers and tweens in the late 80s and early 90s!!" Because that's absurd.

Let's say so: what is it, that is "intrinsically connected to the TMNT"? Only the four turtles and maybe Splinter. Everything else could be thrown out and be reinvented

I'd go a little further. Turtles, Splinter, circle of vengeance with Saki/Foot, some kind of ooze origin. But sure. And reinvented with care to at least the heart/intent of the source material.

[Chabrendeki]

Yeah I think we reached a consensus.

I'd go a little further. Turtles, Splinter, circle of vengeance with Saki/Foot, some kind of ooze origin. But sure. And reinvented with care to at least the heart/intent of the source material.
I get your point, and I have tought about too to include Shredder above. Here is why I didn't: is the Shredder so a focal point in the source material? Yes, he is a key antagonist in some of the best issues, but can we say, that there isn't any TMNT possible without the Shredder?

I would think we have seen this a lot. If we stick to the Shredder, we are stuck to the same story every time. I would say, let's get rid of him. Perhaps in Part 3 he can be introduced, but he is not that intrinsical, as you put it, that he must be there in the first movie (if we are talking about a movie).

One of the more hopeful news about the new cartoon is, that there is no Shredder yet. For me, obviously.

[newfan]

I don't want to come off topic by moving onto Shredder (so apologies for that) but I would like to see Shredder used again in whatever reboot, just not at first, so you have something a little different maybe to start and then Shredder comes in a bit later, build up to him.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Maybe they were a twee more "serious and aggressive" in the first season, but they certainly were absolutely comedic and childlike even in their first appearances. It's arguably their hallmark "charm." Fine in the Fred Wolf show, radioactive in anything aiming to be taken even semi-seriously.

Whats so comedic and childlike about their season 1 appearances? In that, they don't really crack any jokes, and are portrayed as psychopathic juggernauts who the turtles can't take down via ordinary means.

https://cowabloga.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/rb.png?w=663&h=499

Its not until season 2 that they start making jokes and become more kid friendly. Even then, they still have a few moments of being serious sprinkled here and there throughout the series, and in season 8, they completely lose their "hallmark charm" as you describe it. Don't get me wrong, I love the comedic aspect of B&R, even more than the serious portrayals,but it is not completely out of character to make future versions dangerous and not silly as there is a precedent.

[Chabrendeki]

It was a kid's show. The whole show was some kind of comedic and childlike (compared to the source material).

That the show went more comedic and childlike for season 2, and that season 1 was perhaps compared to other kid's properties at the same time not so childish, doesn't mean, it wasn't comedic and childlike at all.

But I think B&R wasn't the worst part of the FW-cartoon. For me they are not the cause of the problems of it. I voted with 4 because their stupidity in latter seasons is (and was) kinda boring for me, but I've always seen a lot of potential in the two characters.

So they had some good moments in the Archie comics, I appreciate today, and loved as a kid (eg. opening panels to #12).

[edit] PS.: I think it's a common misunderstandnig serious would mean more strong and more menacing. I mean, the PD B&R are dangerous, but still silly.
Seriousness comes from characterisation in depth. That you can relate with your own problems to something.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

It was a kid's show. The whole show was some kind of comedic and childlike (compared to the source material).

That the show went more comedic and childlike for season 2, and that season 1 was perhaps compared to other kid's properties at the same time not so childish, doesn't mean, it wasn't comedic and childlike at all.

You're talking about the show as a whole, but I'm talking about the villains (Bebop and Rocksteady specifically). I'm not saying that the show wasn't childlike, even in the first season, but most of the comedy in that miniseries focused on the turtles.

The villains in season 1 were relatively straightforward and didn't crack jokes like they did in season 2 onwards. They were still defeated in comedic ways by the turtles but their personalities were not yet developed into what we know them to be today.

I mean, both henchmutants were shown throwing around the turtles after choking them, and Rocksteady even acted pretty serious towards Shredder when he was insulted for not beating the turtles, something he would never do again :lol:

[Leofan26]

I'll go beyond this poll and give them a 0, that's right folks a 0.

These two are my least favorite villains ever. I wish they never got revived for the 2012 series or live action films, bah.

[Chabrendeki]

I'll go beyond this poll and give them a 0, that's right folks a 0.

These two are my least favorite villains ever. I wish they never got revived for the 2012 series or live action films, bah.

So you mean 10 (most terrible)?

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah I think we reached a consensus.

I get your point, and I have tought about too to include Shredder above. Here is why I didn't: is the Shredder so a focal point in the source material? Yes, he is a key antagonist in some of the best issues, but can we say, that there isn't any TMNT possible without the Shredder?

It isn't him specifically (though he needs to be there), it is what he represents to the TMNT. The circle of vengeance that defines them (for a good while, anyway). Nagi beat up Shen, so Yoshi killed Nagi. Saki killed Shen and Yoshi, so Splinter trained the TMNT to kill Saki. TMNT kill Saki so the Foot swear vengeance on them. The cyclical game of blood that they become readily hip to in "City at War." It's one of the most "real" things that's ever been done with the TMNT ever. You lose Shredder, you don't have that.

Whats so comedic and childlike about their season 1 appearances? In that, they don't really crack any jokes, and are portrayed as psychopathic juggernauts who the turtles can't take down via ordinary means.

https://cowabloga.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/rb.png?w=663&h=499

Its not until season 2 that they start making jokes and become more kid friendly.

Nonsense. Even the first few episodes I can remember them spouting out "funny" stuff and one-liners.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Nonsense. Even the first few episodes I can remember them spouting out "funny" stuff and one-liners.

I think you're remembering episode 6 and onwards unless you count lines like "Maybe I should wring your stinking neck", "You just give us another shot pal, and you'll see some squished turtles" and "Those Shell Heads are dead" as comedic one liners.

[neatoman]

I think you're remembering episode 6 and onwards unless you count lines like "Maybe I should wring your stinking neck", "You just give us another shot pal, and you'll see some squished turtles" and "Those Shell Heads are dead" as comedic one liners.

"I wish I had brought some comics", Said by Bebop as he's waiting to get mutated, took less than two minutes for me to find and he's not even a warthog by that point. There are other one liners as well, even if it goes over your head that they were meant to be funny nearly every scene they're in has clear comedic elements to them. The scene you last quoted features very cartoony animation, such as Rocksteady's eyes turning into traffic lights when bonked on the head with traffic lights.

But let's for a moment pretend they weren't comedic characters in the first five episodes, what are they then? They have no agency of their own, they never succeed in anything, their appearences are fairly brief and they don't really drive the plot in any signifigant way. And as we're pretending they're not comedic, what are their personalities? Snarling brutes? Gee, how exciting...

[FredWolfLeonardo]

"I wish I had brought some comics", Said by Bebop as he's waiting to get mutated, took less than two minutes for me to find and he's not even a warthog by that point. There are other one liners as well, even if it goes over your head that they were meant to be funny nearly every scene they're in has clear comedic elements to them. The scene you last quoted features very cartoony animation, such as Rocksteady's eyes turning into traffic lights when bonked on the head with traffic lights.

But let's for a moment pretend they weren't comedic characters in the first five episodes, what are they then? They have no agency of their own, they never succeed in anything, their appearences are fairly brief and they don't really drive the plot in any signifigant way. And as we're pretending they're not comedic, what are their personalities? Snarling brutes? Gee, how exciting...

Nothing about that comics line really sounded like an attempt at humour to me. If you read my earlier posts, you would see that I acknowledged that Bebop and Rocksteady in season 1 were defeated in comedic ways but I never found them funny at that point, it was mainly the turtles cracking the jokes until season 2 when the villains starting attempting their own wisecracks.

The only moments with the villains I found funny in season 1 are a few of Shredder's lines like "Tonight I dine on turtle soup", "You might struggle to find a date on Saturday Night", "It feels so good to be so bad", and "I don't wanna conquer this place, I wanna conquer Earth!" but those still much fewer jokes than what Shredder would do in later seasons. Also, Shredder didn't change as drastically as B&R in the transition from season 1 to 2 and it still doesn't negate my point about Bebop and Rocksteady themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I like the FW villains more in season 1 without their usual comedy routine (I find their lack of comedy to be bland infact), but I am merely defending the idea that a serious version of Bebop and Rocksteady is not something completely out of the blue with no basis in any of their original appearances. Snarling brutes can be quite fitting in a more serious setting and be potentially very interesting in my opinon, especially since they won't be defeated in comedic ways and are allowed to be more violent than what a kids show would allow.

[CyberCubed]

If Bebop/Rocksteady appear in the 2018 show I wonder what they'll be like. I don't think they'll continue with Russian Rocksteady or laser break-dancing Bebop like in Nick, but make them more into street punks again.

Oh well as long as Bebop is a black man with a purple mohawk, all is well.

[Coola Yagami]

Oh well as long as Bebop is a black man with a purple mohawk, all is well.

..... guess you're not gonna change in 2018, are you?

[pferreira]

So I don't think just because their source is in the FW cartoon, this two guys are bad characters. That would be a bit prejudiced.They're far from bad characters and I tend to find people who don't like them generally don't think much of the cartoon series either.

If one were to follow Crisler's Law (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Crisler%27s%20Law), I suppose.Speaking of Crisler's Law which you like to quote all the time, a user at Den of Geek recently tried to convince me that I take Star Wars too seriously because I dislike what Disney and current Lucasfilm have done to the franchise. Well apparently at the end of the day I'll always have the original trilogy which kinda misses the point I'm trying to get through to him about (shrugs shoulders).

Screw that, and screw them. They didn't even turn up for the last movie, which was exclusively catered to them.I'm a fan of the cartoon, I went to see it and it was nothing like the 80s cartoon. :roll:

But let's for a moment pretend they weren't comedic characters in the first five episodes, what are they then? They have no agency of their own, they never succeed in anything, their appearences are fairly brief and they don't really drive the plot in any signifigant way. And as we're pretending they're not comedic, what are their personalities? Snarling brutes? Gee, how exciting...I think you're asking too much from these characters. B & R are bumbling but dangerous henchmen. Unless you attach yourself to the cartoon as in enjoy it you aren't going to enjoy the characters. Season 1 clearly showed they could be violent and dangerous. They're dumb? Well what did you expect, they're a gang of lowlives. You can't expect them to be geniuses.

Even then, they still have a few moments of being serious sprinkled here and there throughout the series, and in season 8, they completely lose their "hallmark charm" as you describe it. Don't get me wrong, I love the comedic aspect of B&R, even more than the serious portrayals,but it is not completely out of character to make future versions dangerous and not silly as there is a precedent.Spot on. They're supposed to be those characters. It's like asking for an adaptation of Shredder that is a good guy.

[Metalwolf]

I give them a 5. They aren't great and they aren't intolerably bad, they are just 'OK.'

Reason is, they aren't bad characters but I do think the 'stupidity for comedy' kind of hurts them. It often gets overused to an annoying extent, to the point it can make one wonder why Shredder still keeps them around.

The other thing is that they can feel over-included. Nick didn't need them, it already had it's own set of henchmen. Problem is, there were nostalgic fans that demanded them, and so Nick added them. It wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't overshadow the original henchmen, but they did, and whatever unique badassery those guys might have developed took a backseat to these two.

I do think they can be fun though, but they should not be used every time Shredder needs some henchmen. That gets old, which was what I'd been feeling for a while. Plus they sorely need to be updated, they don't have to be bumbling throwbacks to the 80's all the time, they can evolve. It wouldn't be so bad if they have an animal origin, or wore modern fashion, or if they were fully competent (and not bumbling manchildren) and used dark comedy rather then goofy jokes.

For right now though, they need to be shelved for a while. Shredder needs to get some new henchmen and TMNT needs to not be afraid to try new stuff. Otherwise it just looks like it can't move on past the Fred Wolf series or Mirage stories and tries to rely too much on fan nostalgia to keep it going.

[Andrew NDB]

If Bebop/Rocksteady appear in the 2018 show I wonder what they'll be like.

If? C'mon. There's 0% chance they won't be there. Get ready for a new Beebop and Rocksteady origin!

[miru]

Only a 2. Then again, that’s due to the varying writing quality of this episodic show.