Among the turtles who do you prefer being the best at combat/stealth [Archive]

Dragnskull

01-09-2018, 01:35 AM

I always liked the idea of mikey being the "Potential uber-ninja"

He's loud and goofy and doesn't take anything serious normally, so it'd be a perfect balance to see him "turn it on" when needed.

Good examples of this is him becoming the battle nexus champ in 2k3 series (granted all by accident), or in the Nick toon when he was in dimx and became savage mikey.

A complete goof, but has an X factor that gives him the greatest potential of all

Utrommaniac

01-09-2018, 01:49 AM

Someone did point this out on tumblr on the 2012 show.

I don't exactly remember which episode, but it was when Leo tried to sneak out on his own and Mike followed him...and didn't notice until Mike grabbed him from behind. He could have killed Leo if he wanted to!

Loud and obnoxious though 2012 Mike may be, I would have no problem with him being the sneakiest of the four. Because you'd never expect him.

Ulisa

01-09-2018, 12:36 PM

I’ve always seen Mikey as being the best of the four but it usually isn’t expressed. In part, I think that Mikey has to buckle down and decide to really throw his all into a fight which he does very rarely. I think it may be an issue of belief too. Mikey doesn’t act like the best ninja because he doesn’t think he’s the best. He see Leo and Master Splinter as being the most skilled so when he compares himself to them, he assumes they’re holding back or not putting their all into something. I think the thought of himself being better than Leo is something he just plain can’t wrap his head around but we’ve seen bits and pieces of it come out in certain episodes. Personally, I would love to see Mikey go all out...

plastroncafe

01-09-2018, 12:40 PM

I think Leo would be best at stealth, only because I like the idea of him being the best all-around. He's equally good at all things.

Raph, I think is stronger.
Mike, faster.
Don, more logically minded/smarter.

But YMMV.

Andrew NDB

01-09-2018, 12:51 PM

Equally good at combat and stealth.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2018, 12:57 PM

Sumac

01-09-2018, 01:01 PM

Leonardo, I guess.
At least as far most incarnations are concerned, he is supposed to be the best warrior.

IndigoErth

01-09-2018, 01:01 PM

Leo, definitely. Pretty much agree with what Plastron said and how she put it. They're all good, but they all have their own strengths to use to their advantage, and the others make up for it in their own ways.

plastroncafe

01-09-2018, 01:04 PM

I've never really bought into the whole "one has to be the best" thing... but I don't have a problem with it, either.

The only problems I have with the concept are when writers show Leo and Raph as the skilled, and Mike and Don as the "oh yeah, they're ninja... but they suck."

ESPECIALLY when they show Don as the "purple turtle with a stick REALLY sucks."

I think of it less as "which one is best" and more an extension of their personalities. They start off with the same base level of skills, which are damn near superhuman, but then curve off towards their own interests.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2018, 01:08 PM

I think of it less as "which one is best" and more an extension of their personalities. They start off with the same base level of skills, which are damn near superhuman, but then curve off towards their own interests.

I'm fine with that, and that does make sense. I just think this sometimes gets carried too far or given too much weight. Not every character is a team needs to be broken down to videogame character statistics.

"I need to beat this level quickly, better use Mikey for his speed! Next level has a ton of hard enemies, so I'll switch to Raph for his strength..."

FredWolfLeonardo

01-09-2018, 01:31 PM

I always found the idea of Michelangelo having "The greatest potential" as completely ridiculous.

What exactly makes Mikey have more potential than his brothers? He isn't as physically strong as Raphael, strategic as Leonardo, smart as Donatello, lacks focus, is lazy, and not to mention, the nunchaku are easily the worst out of all the turtles' weapons.

The only hidden potential he has in my opinion, is the potential for the most improvement.

Andrew NDB

01-09-2018, 01:34 PM

I'm fine with that, and that does make sense. I just think this sometimes gets carried too far or given too much weight. Not every character is a team needs to be broken down to videogame character statistics.

"I need to beat this level quickly, better use Mikey for his speed! Next level has a ton of hard enemies, so I'll switch to Raph for his strength..."

That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, LAME.

Prowler

01-09-2018, 02:02 PM

That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, LAME.

Donatello got his ass handed to him often in the 2k3 series. I'ts like they made him out to be the least capable fighter of the group. So because he has brains that means he can't be a great fighter? Both have to be mutually exclusive? :roll:

Anyway, it makes the most sense for Leonardo to be a slightly more skilled fighter than his brothers. He is the leader after all. Funny thing is, in the FW series, despite him officially being the leader and being called a leader often, he didn't seem to be more or less skilled than his brothers. Then again most fights in that show were just slapstick anyways.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-09-2018, 02:40 PM

Funny thing is, in the FW series, despite him officially being the leader and being called a leader often, he didn't seem to be more or less skilled than his brothers. Then again most fights in that show were just slapstick anyways.

He has his moments of being more skilled than his brothers and is easily the most ninja-like, but I agree that the FW turtles were more equal to each other than other incarnations.

One positive thing about that however is that Michelangelo in that series wasn't reduced to being the worst of the group, which I really don't like in other versions. It gave all the turtles an equal spotlight rather than make one turtle more important than the others which was done with Leonardo in the 2003 series.

CyberCubed

01-09-2018, 02:54 PM

Leonardo wasn't focused on that much more than the others in 2k3, he just got more episodes relating to Shredder/Karai so it seemed like that.

PApagreg

01-09-2018, 02:56 PM

Equally good at combat and stealth.
Thats kinda boring.

"I need to beat this level quickly, better use Mikey for his speed! Next level has a ton of hard enemies, so I'll switch to Raph for his strength..."
I see it more as which character fits you playstyle, Mikey is the Fragile Speedster racking up combos, Raph is the Mighty Glacier bringing in good hits and counters, Leo is the jack of stats and Don is the Awesome but difficult character.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-09-2018, 02:57 PM

Thats kinda boring.

Well, as Andrew would say: its the source material :lol:

plastroncafe

01-09-2018, 02:59 PM

That depends on the source material.

Andrew NDB

01-09-2018, 03:12 PM

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2018, 03:19 PM

I think any deviation in their skillsets or stats would come from their mastery of their preferred weapon (katana vs. sai, etc.). Meaning, Leo might be a little stronger than the others simply by the virtue of him dual-wielding two heavy katanas all the time (try that, by the way... it's super difficult). Their training would be identical.

They didn't, like, have different masters. Or train at different dojos.

Exactly. Splinter is teaching them the same katas, the same exercises, the same everything. Except weapons techniques. And Leo probably pays more attention to the meditation stuff... he was the only one to attempt solo trips on the astral plane in Image. (Though all four Turtles ended up there to save Splinter, or Raph and Don ended up there when they were unconscious.)

IndigoErth

01-09-2018, 03:20 PM

Yeah, kinda dull to make them all cookie cutter.

Though valid reasons - be it cannon or simple assumptions that make sense - for different strengths is appreciated.

i.e. What might make Mikey the fastest? Maybe quick reflexes, but also paired with 'weaker' points of the others...? Raph might be bulkier and not built as much for speed. (More the bull in a china shop, so easy compensation.) The length of Donnie's bo and the way it's used may prevent equally quick action. Similarly Leo's swords are also large weapons, rather dangerous weapons with attention required to using two at once, and the danger of injury to self or allies should probably come with a level of caution that keeps his fight to only a reasonable speed. Mikey's weapons on the other hand can be stopped by him in a moments notice, are harmless out of use, and small enough to not be in the way if he quickly changes gears to hand-to-hand combat. Leo and Donnie inevitably lose time having to re-holster/sheath theirs, and the swords will never lose the need for cautious handling.

plastroncafe

01-09-2018, 03:21 PM

The internet is telling me that the average weight for a katana ranges between 800 to 1500 grams. Or... between 1.5 - 3 lbs.

PApagreg

01-09-2018, 03:21 PM

I think any deviation in their skillsets or stats would come from their mastery of their preferred weapon (katana vs. sai, etc.). Meaning, Leo might be a little stronger than the others simply by the virtue of him dual-wielding two heavy katanas all the time (try that, by the way... it's super difficult). Their training would be identical.

They didn't, like, have different masters. Or train at different dojos.

But they do have different talent/personalities/interest. Its like students going to the same class/subject and having the same teacher but getting different grades, some people are either going to put more into the work, having a passion for a certain subject, or have a natural talent for said subject.

Andrew NDB

01-09-2018, 03:27 PM

But they do have different talent/personalities/interest. Its like students going to the same class/subject and having the same teacher but getting different grades, some people are either going to put more into the work, having a passion for a certain subject, or have a natural talent for said subject.

You're thinking about human teenagers in high school and equating the Turtles to that.

Stop doing that.

Exactly. Splinter is teaching them the same katas, the same exercises, the same everything.

Yeah, and find me four healthy, genetic brothers who do all of that, the exact same everything in the same gym every day for 15 years where it eventually emerges that different brothers end up radically different builds-wise, or anything.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2018, 03:31 PM

But they do have different talent/personalities/interest. Its like students going to the same class/subject and having the same teacher but getting different grades, some people are either going to put more into the work, having a passion for a certain subject, or have a natural talent for said subject.

I really don't think Splinter would tolerate Raphael slacking off and trying for a C- in Stealth, or Donatello struggling to get a D- in Combat.

Splinter is their father AND teacher. There is no escape... they will ALL be proficient at everything Splinter teaches.

I mean, I get the differentiation everyone else seems to favor, but it seems to me that too much emphasis is given. Like, the cartoons think that Donatello would get an A+ in Strategy and a D- in Combat, when really it should be a A+ in Strategy and an A- in Combat.

plastroncafe

01-09-2018, 03:32 PM

Or don't, because there's no reason not to.

PApagreg

01-09-2018, 03:33 PM

You're thinking about human teenagers in high school and equating the Turtles to that.

Stop doing that.
Its a freakin analogy, my point is that just because they go to the same school and practice the same art doesn't mean they are the same when it comes to skill and combat. There are many factors that come to play.

@CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
Well it kinda depends on what you see has D- or A-. I personally see the Donnie as being a B+ and Mikey being an A- when it comes to Martial Arts. I imagine all of them being all around "good" ninjas but some of them are better suited for some things.

Yeah, kinda dull to make them all cookie cutter.

Though valid reasons - be it cannon or simple assumptions that make sense - for different strengths is appreciated.

i.e. What might make Mikey the fastest? Maybe quick reflexes, but also paired with 'weaker' points of the others...? Raph might be bulkier and not built as much for speed. (More the bull in a china shop, so easy compensation.) The length of Donnie's bo and the way it's used may prevent equally quick action. Similarly Leo's swords are also large weapons, rather dangerous weapons with attention required to using two at once, and the danger of injury to self or allies should probably come with a level of caution that keeps his fight to only a reasonable speed. Mikey's weapons on the other hand can be stopped by him in a moments notice, are harmless out of use, and small enough to not be in the way if he quickly changes gears to hand-to-hand combat. Leo and Donnie inevitably lose time having to re-holster/sheath theirs, and the swords will never lose the need for cautious handling.

I also see their interest putting a factor in this. In most incarnations Splinter tends to give them some downtime and how they spend it effects what they are good at. I see Leo perfecting his Katas, Raph either working out or beating up some punks, Don studying or tinkering with machines and Mikey doing parkour or something.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-09-2018, 03:53 PM

Like, the cartoons think that Donatello would get an A+ in Strategy and a D- in Combat, when really it should be a A+ in Strategy and an A- in Combat.

Thats more of what the Nick and 2003 cartoons did while FW Donatello was equal to his brothers on combat.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-09-2018, 03:57 PM

Leonardo is the most skilled and routined, but Michelangelo is the best allround fighter.

Candy Kappa

01-09-2018, 06:06 PM

The internet is telling me that the average weight for a katana ranges between 800 to 1500 grams. Or... between 1.5 - 3 lbs.

Plus, being 23-30 inches in length. It's not only heavy to dualweild but also unwieldy, hard to control and you lose all versatility, ending up being super predictable in a fight. And being a two hand sword you don't cut effectively with just one hand.

Going by that alone, Leo should be the strongest, but not the best tactician or the sharpest tool in the shed :lol:

Prowler

01-10-2018, 02:56 PM

I don't see what's wrong with the Turtles not all having the same abilities and fighting skills or technique. I mean, I know they're all of the same height and I assume weight as well, but they have different personalities from each other, so naturally they're gonna approach battles differently. Just like in real life, everyone is different somewhat, not just humans but animals as well.

IndigoErth

01-10-2018, 06:41 PM

Mhmm. I mean, my sister and I were raised by the same people, and both learned what they taught us, but doesn't mean we turned out to be essentially two copies of the same person. In some ways, we couldn't be more different.

LeotheLateBloomer

01-11-2018, 12:52 AM

Thats more of what the Nick and 2003 cartoons did while FW Donatello was equal to his brothers on combat.

I don't recall when it was ever stated that he was the least skilled in the 2003 series.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 01:17 AM

I don't recall when it was ever stated that he was the least skilled in the 2003 series.

Sorry I meant it the other way around, Don was the least skilled in Nick while he was roughly equal in FW and 2k3.

There was that episode in the Nick toon where Raph and Leonardo were shown as superior fighters than Don and Mike, as far as the latter two being demoted to the B team.

Coola Yagami

01-11-2018, 08:47 AM

IndigoErth

01-11-2018, 09:48 AM

Don't be silly, of course I was. Opportunities are just very scarce now that the market for evil ninja clan leaders has dried up. Something about some Turtles making the job unappealing, I dunno.

Andrew NDB

01-11-2018, 09:49 AM

IndigoErth

01-11-2018, 10:19 AM

*shrug* Call it Mirage canon-based or whatever, your tunnel vision view of them is yours. Some don't ignore the peripheral.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 12:04 PM

I guess a more fair comparison for the tmnt is being trained in the army rather than high school.

There is none of this "Use your special talent" in the army. Rather, its "Everyone must meet a certain skill level and keep it that way otherwise you're pure trash."

plastroncafe

01-11-2018, 12:09 PM

Being able to meet a certain skill level, and keep it that way, isn't the same thing as everyone having the exact same skill level in all things.

There's a reason those are minimum levels.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 12:16 PM

Being able to meet a certain skill level, and keep it that way, isn't the same thing as everyone having the exact same skill level in all things.

There's a reason those are minimum levels.

Yes, but there is a uniformity in the army if you compare people who do the same thing and have been trained in that for a equal number of years.

Sure, there is some minor variation but the two soldiers will largely be the same at their jobs due to the nature of it.

The Mirage tmnt in Issue 1 were trained to be assassins with the purpose of killing Shredder in the same way, under the same master for 15 years and their uniformity really showed when they worked as a team.

plastroncafe

01-11-2018, 12:35 PM

So...taking your logic further, Raph can lead.
I mean, he's got the same skills as Leo does, and they've had the same training.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 12:39 PM

So...taking your logic further, Raph can lead.
I mean, he's got the same skills as Leo does, and they've had the same training.

Leadership is not just about fighting skills. Leonardo also has a stricter code of honour than Raphael, more wisdom, is more level headed and takes time to meditate upon Splinter's teachings.

Besides, if you have been following recent tmnt news, Raphael is gonna be the leader in the 2018 show.

plastroncafe

01-11-2018, 12:45 PM

Leadership is not just about fighting skills. Leonardo also has a stricter code of honour than Raphael, more wisdom, is more level headed and takes time to meditate upon Splinter's teachings.

But that doesn't make any sense, they had the same teacher. Why would Leo's sense of Honor or Wisdom be any different than Raph's?

If they are as interchangeable as you and Andrew insist that they are, there's no reason for Leonardo to be the leader at all.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 12:52 PM

But that doesn't make any sense, they had the same teacher. Why would Leo's sense of Honor or Wisdom be any different than Raph's?

If they are as interchangeable as you and Andrew insist that they are, there's no reason for Leonardo to be the leader at all.

Wisdom is much different from physical strength and reflexes. The former cannot be taught and requires internal reflection while the latter can be and is a matter of training.

Me and Andrew never suggested anything like that. They may have roughly the same level of fighting skills (atleast in earlier versions), but there are other differences between the turtles such as their personalities etc.

Andrew NDB

01-11-2018, 12:53 PM

But that doesn't make any sense, they had the same teacher. Why would Leo's sense of Honor or Wisdom be any different than Raph's?

If they are as interchangeable as you and Andrew insist that they are, there's no reason for Leonardo to be the leader at all.

He's not the leader. Splinter is. Leonardo is "Splinter in waiting/training in case Splinter dies."

The idea that the TMNT need a leader within themselves is as flawed as the idea that Splinter wouldn't be conditioning them in exactly the same ways, with exactly the same exercises. It's not like Splinter would be like, "You seem emotional today, Donatello-san... you may do 3 hours less on the free weights and 5 less katas. Papa loves you! Shredder will probably just seppuku himself one day, no worries."

Candy Kappa

01-11-2018, 12:56 PM

Or, Splinter would see where each Turtle excel beyond the standard training and expand each Turtle's skill set and hone their individual abilities as well. As a good Ninja would do.

plastroncafe

01-11-2018, 12:58 PM

What makes Leo so special that he gets to be the On Deck leader?

They're either all exactly the same, or they're not.

Andrew NDB

01-11-2018, 12:58 PM

What makes Leo so special that he gets to be the On Deck leader?

Well, it has to be somebody. Maybe he was the first one to speak or something, who knows.

plastroncafe

01-11-2018, 01:01 PM

Well, it has to be somebody. Maybe he was the first one to speak or something, who knows.

By your own words it doesn't have to be anybody.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 01:03 PM

Or, Splinter would see where each Turtle excel beyond the standard training and expand each Turtle's skill set and hone their individual abilities as well. As a good Ninja would do.

Thats certainly the case in later versions. Not that I'm against it or anything, I'd be willing to give it a chance. I'm interested to see what makes Splinter choose Raphael the leader in the 2018 show.

What makes Leo so special that he gets to be the On Deck leader?

They're either all exactly the same, or they're not.

You'd be the last person to argue in black and white :lol: And just because he's leader doesn't mean he's superior even outside of Mirage. Say for example in the Original Cartoon, Leonardo was the offical and undisputed leader despite the turtles being roughly interchangable in terms of fighting skills. That didn't make him any more special, as all four turtles were treated as equals in that series, who worked as a unit.

Well, it has to be somebody. Maybe he was the first one to speak or something, who knows.

Pizza! Pizza!

pferreira

01-11-2018, 03:34 PM

It's a difficult question although for the video games at least Donatello is definitely the best character up until the 2007 video game.

Well, as Andrew would say: its the source material :lol::lol:

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 03:40 PM

It's a difficult question although for the video games at least Donatello is definitely the best character up until the 2007 video game.

Yeah, he was Rocksteady's worst nightmare :lol:

plastroncafe

01-11-2018, 03:44 PM

And just because he's leader doesn't mean he's superior even outside of Mirage. Say for example in the Original Cartoon, Leonardo was the offical and undisputed leader despite the turtles being roughly interchangable in terms of fighting skills. That didn't make him any more special, as all four turtles were treated as equals in that series, who worked as a unit.

Some turtles are just more equal than others...

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 03:49 PM

Some turtles are just more equal than others...

turtle privelige!

PApagreg

01-11-2018, 10:10 PM

Me and Andrew never suggested anything like that. They may have roughly the same level of fighting skills (atleast in earlier versions), but there are other differences between the turtles such as their personalities etc.

I mean would't their personalties effect how much they train or excel, we all know Raph is the hot head so would't it make sense if he put more effort into close quarters. Or what about talent, we all accept the fact that Donnie is a natural when it comes to engineering and science so is it too far off to say Mikey is more talented than his brothers at stealth and its not to say his other brothers are terrible at stealth just that he is the best at it.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-11-2018, 10:47 PM

I mean would't their personalties effect how much they train or excel, we all know Raph is the hot head so would't it make sense if he put more effort into close quarters. Or what about talent, we all accept the fact that Donnie is a natural when it comes to engineering and science so is it too far off to say Mikey is more talented than his brothers at stealth and its not to say his other brothers are terrible at stealth just that he is the best at it.

Once again, it depends on the version, but you are right one way or the other as there is either minor or major variation due to their personalities.

The turtles are not carbon copies of each other, but not so different that they share very less in common in either.

I personally prefer the turtles not having their personalities having major affects on their fighting skills, so we don't get things like Michelangelo becoming the worst fighter because of the writers dumping all the comic relief on him or Leonardo becoming overly important till the point where he overshadows the other turtles.

Candy Kappa

01-12-2018, 03:27 AM

Once again, it depends on the version, but you are right one way or the other as there is either minor or major variation due to their personalities.

The thread is about personal preference and not scoring each incarnation, though.

FredWolfLeonardo

01-12-2018, 03:33 AM

The thread is about personal preference and not scoring each incarnation, though.

I did state my personal preferences :roll:

MikeandRaph87

01-12-2018, 10:41 AM

Michelangelo as the most agile and fastest also never showing his full capabilities unless absolutely pushed to the point he can go 100% like was mentioned in Dimension X in the 2012 cartoon or the Battle Nexus arc among others.

Raphael as the physically strongest.

Leonardo as one with the balanced skills. Not the best in any but overall makes him the best.

Donatello I don't want his brain thinking outside the box all the time to get him out of situations, but to have average to slightly above average rounded skilled.

pferreira

01-18-2018, 01:30 PM

Yeah, he was Rocksteady's worst nightmare :lol:Agreed. :D

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-20-2018, 03:09 AM

I don't get the thing of Michelangelo knowing Dimension X by heart in the Nickelodeon series.

plastroncafe

01-20-2018, 08:16 AM

I think the idea is that he's so illogical all the time, that it would make sense that he would just instinctively Get a place that doesn't run on Earth Logic.

Original TMNT Cartoon Fan

01-20-2018, 08:36 AM

I think the idea is that he's so illogical all the time.

Is he? Many times, he came up with ideas to save the day.

IndigoErth

01-20-2018, 03:49 PM

Nah... Mikey only knew it by heart because if you recall time works differently there and he'd been there for a while by the time his bother's showed up. He'd had time to learn how to survive.

dragonside

01-21-2018, 05:54 PM

If we assume that they are different.....

I would say they are good at different kinds of stealth

Donatello - using stealth by using tech. Also understanding how to beat the systems in place.

Leonardo - generally the most focused and therefore aware of the situation kind of stealth.

Mikey - naturally quick and responsive (aka talent). can be very stealthy when puts mind to it.

Raph - physically the strongest, but not as fast. I would say if stealth is needed, raph is going to have the hardest time. But we have seen that he can hide in the shadows pretty well. Biding his time. His stealth would be terrible when he is angry.

IndigoErth

01-21-2018, 06:39 PM

Donnie can help Raph out by inventing invisibility cloaks for the team. :D

PApagreg

01-21-2018, 06:59 PM

Donnie can help Raph out by inventing invisibility cloaks for the team. :D

A bit too Harry Potter for my taste

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-21-2018, 07:03 PM

A bit too Harry Potter for my taste

Darius Dun and his Street Phantoms take issue with your dismissal of their technology, sir.

IndigoErth

01-21-2018, 07:09 PM

And come on, you know this next series is going total Harry Potter, minus the Hogwarts. :trazz: (But not minus the hog if Bebop shows up.)

pferreira

01-25-2018, 02:40 PM

And come on, you know this next series is going total Harry Potter, minus the Hogwarts. :trazz: (But not minus the hog if Bebop shows up.)Now all the TMNT have to do is yell 'Flipendo!' against enemies. :lol:

ryukenden

02-07-2018, 07:35 PM

All the Turtles should be good at stealth with them being ninjas and all. Don would have to be the one to hack into the security systems and make sure they don’t get picked up by surveillance cameras. Everyone should play a part during infiltration.

For example if they have to hack into a CEO’s computer, Don would do the hacking while Leo watches his back and he would then send Raph and Mikey to be lookouts or have one cover their exit. Mikey would obviously bring a handheld game to keep himself from getting bored. The lookout Turtles could distract or if necessary, neutralize any guards. I think this is what they should have done during Secret of the Ooze.