Most Sympathetic and Least Sympathetic TMNT Villains?

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Who are the most sympathetic villains in TMNT? Who are the least sympathetic villains in TMNT?

Keep in mind, I am talking about the entire franchise, anyone from any comic book, movie, cartoon, video game, etc is fair game.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Baxter Stockman is the most sympathetic.

Everything bad happens to him every time in every incarnation except IDW. He's the world's whipping boy.

Surgically removed his own brain to implant it into a cybernetic robot? Check.
Blown half up and left hanging on Donatello's dungeon wall for over a decade? Check.
Blinded, crippled, reduced to a head in a jar? Check.
Reduced further to a brain in a jar? Check.
Trapped in a rotting corpse-like body? Check.
Grafted into an alien squid thing? Check.
Mutated into a fly a ridiculous number of times? Check.
Checked into a mental institution for believing in giant talking turtles? Check.

My man Stockman better stay in IDW and keep Bobby Curnow on his good side... he's thoroughly screwed everywhere else.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Baxter Stockman is the most sympathetic.

Everything bad happens to him every time in every incarnation except IDW. He's the world's whipping boy.

Surgically removed his own brain to implant it into a cybernetic robot? Check.
Blown half up and left hanging on Donatello's dungeon wall for over a decade? Check.
Blinded, crippled, reduced to a head in a jar? Check.
Reduced further to a brain in a jar? Check.
Trapped in a rotting corpse-like body? Check.
Grafted into an alien squid thing? Check.
Mutated into a fly a ridiculous number of times? Check.
Checked into a mental institution for believing in giant talking turtles? Check.

My man Stockman better stay in IDW and keep Bobby Curnow on his good side... he's thoroughly screwed everywhere else.

Too be fair Mirage Stockman is pretty unsympathetic, he put his brain into a cyborg on purpose, killed a bunch of people for petty revenge, infected April with nanobots, terrorized NYC for fun, etc. He deserved his fate. Most other versions of Stockman are sympathetic though.

Most versions of Karai are pretty sympathetic. The Nano monster from the 2003 cartoon was pretty sympathetic and Slash from the 2012 cartoon developed from a creepy villain to a hero over time. The 2012 version of Mutagen Man was pitiable, a shame nothing really happened with him.

Even the original Mirage Shredder is one of the more sympathetic versions of the character, really he became a villain to avenge his brother, that is a more sympathetic motive then Shredder usual gets.

In terms of truly evil TMNT villains, there are a fair amount: Utrom Shredder, Tengu Shredder, 87 Dregg, Mirage Skonk and Savanti Romero, Archie Mr. Null, the Nick versions of Rat King, Krang and Kavaxas are all define by ruthless cruelty in one way or another.

[Powder]

IDW's Mutagen Man is very high on the sympathetic list. Poor guy breaks my heart.

Ch'rell I can't sympathize with at all. Dude's pure evil for the hell of it. IDW Shredder too, I suppose. I like that in a villain, though.

[PApagreg]

Ehh you can argue that most of the bad stuff that happens to 2k3 Baxter is what he deserved after losing a few too many body parts you would think he would just leave the turtles alone but the man never learns. Though his Fred Wolf counterpart is actually deserve sympathy.

I second Nano from the 2k3 version, sure he got a happy ending but his episodes still make me tear up a bit.

[Utrommaniac]

IDW Mutagen man isn't really a villain, though? He might be teamed up with the Mutanimals, but he doesn't seem entirely comfortable going along with what they do. He's just happy to have some friends.

IDW Krang got halfway there, until he trashed any chance of empathy with doing the exact same sh*t to others that happened to his people. Which by any logic should also trash his chances of protecting what's left of them, because it would make them a great big target. He lost like...half his marbles in the effort and look where that got him.

But maaaan, someone just give 23K Stockman a nice big painting of a beach over relaxing music to stare at a good while. It's probably the one thing that would probably give him at least some mental peace. Can't exactly wrap him in a blanket and give him some hot chocolate.

23K Karai has some points, but it really could have been worked on some more writing-wise. It could have further developed flashbacks of her adoption, why she was abandoned, further looked into her one-on-ones with Ch'rell. Who also could have had at least some kind of "tragic backstory", but there was more interest in making him a Villain Sue. This person had a pretty good idea of what could have worked as a backstory. (http://nixariel.tumblr.com/post/168597753950/so-bat-snake-wanted-to-hear-about-the-rebel) But, 4Kids being 4Kids, didn't really have a lot of interest in having some points on the villain side that maybe the heroes should have a good "sit down and think" over. Hopefully IDW Ch'rell will do something more productive in his classic Rage Ranting.

On some level, I can see where IDW Shredder has empathetic zones, since he's basically been used like a puppet by Kitsune his entire life (and previous life) to suit her own ends. His life isn't really his own; everything has been planned for him and there was no way for him to take his fate into his own hands without stumbling into what was set for him one way or another. Whatever way he could go, Kitsune would have ultimately controlled him. And now even in death, he's basically being used for her own weird issues with Daddy being gone from the mortal plane. And considering that she married him...things are a lot more weird.


But if there's anyone I feel pretty terrible for at this moment, it's IDW Karai.
She worked herself to the bone to do some Ninja Clan necromancy, literally bled to ensure its resurrection to the fullest, and what thanks did she get? She was belittled, cast aside as Chunin and replaced by some kid (I assume she's in her mid-twenties), and eventually lost complete control of something that she put blood, sweat, and tears into reviving.
You go on making your own group, girl.


Most of the TMNT villains across all boards seem to suffer from this:
http://78.media.tumblr.com/16ad366394b7e82b32adaeb342821674/tumblr_oymo417rOv1uxxqz1o1_500.png

[The Master Meglomaniac]

IDW Mutagen man isn't really a villain, though? He might be teamed up with the Mutanimals, but he doesn't seem entirely comfortable going along with what they do. He's just happy to have some friends.

IDW Krang got halfway there, until he trashed any chance of empathy with doing the exact same sh*t to others that happened to his people. Which by any logic should also trash his chances of protecting what's left of them, because it would make them a great big target. He lost like...half his marbles in the effort and look where that got him.

But maaaan, someone just give 23K Stockman a nice big painting of a beach over relaxing music to stare at a good while. It's probably the one thing that would probably give him at least some mental peace. Can't exactly wrap him in a blanket and give him some hot chocolate.

23K Karai has some points, but it really could have been worked on some more writing-wise. It could have further developed flashbacks of her adoption, why she was abandoned, further looked into her one-on-ones with Ch'rell. Who also could have had at least some kind of "tragic backstory", but there was more interest in making him a Villain Sue. This person had a pretty good idea of what could have worked as a backstory. (http://nixariel.tumblr.com/post/168597753950/so-bat-snake-wanted-to-hear-about-the-rebel) But, 4Kids being 4Kids, didn't really have a lot of interest in having some points on the villain side that maybe the heroes should have a good "sit down and think" over. Hopefully IDW Ch'rell will do something more productive in his classic Rage Ranting.

On some level, I can see where IDW Shredder has empathetic zones, since he's basically been used like a puppet by Kitsune his entire life (and previous life) to suit her own ends. His life isn't really his own; everything has been planned for him and there was no way for him to take his fate into his own hands without stumbling into what was set for him one way or another. Whatever way he could go, Kitsune would have ultimately controlled him. And now even in death, he's basically being used for her own weird issues with Daddy being gone from the mortal plane. And considering that she married him...things are a lot more weird.


But if there's anyone I feel pretty terrible for at this moment, it's IDW Karai.
She worked herself to the bone to do some Ninja Clan necromancy, literally bled to ensure its resurrection to the fullest, and what thanks did she get? She was belittled, cast aside as Chunin and replaced by some kid (I assume she's in her mid-twenties), and eventually lost complete control of something that she put blood, sweat, and tears into reviving.
You go on making your own group, girl.


Most of the TMNT villains across all boards seem to suffer from this:
http://78.media.tumblr.com/16ad366394b7e82b32adaeb342821674/tumblr_oymo417rOv1uxxqz1o1_500.png

There is nothing wrong with a villain who is just an ''A hole'', some of the best villains in fiction are compelling due to how vile they are, it depends on how you handle them:

The Emperor from Star wars, Freddy Kruger, many versions of Joker and the Red Skull, are all pure evil and can be compelling.

I think a good story can have room for both sympathetic villains and unsympathetic villains, different villains of different morality levels can play off each other and different stories require different types of villains. I like Utrom Shredder, sure he is just pure evil, but he is one of the most epic threats the Turtles have faced and his ruthlessness and cruelty are a big reason why he is such an unstoppable threat.

[Utrommaniac]

Most of them still had some pretty complex backstories. I think it's just what you do with the a-holeness that makes it work.

Comparing 23K Ch'rell to Palpatine is probably going to give Palpatine the win. Mostly because I think Palpatine is more intimidating, partly because unlike Ch'rell, he was able to succeed in his goals for a good while.

You can have an "a-hole villain", but sometimes that can be detrimental to the characterization. Such is the case with 23K Ch'rell. He was...one-note, shall we say.

[sdp]

All incarnations of Stockman that I'm familiar with, dude just can't catch a break, even when he is indeed evil he still gets it so much worse than the average villain that you can't help but feel bad for him.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I think Nick Shredder was pretty sympathetic. I know he did some pretty horrible things, but he honestly felt different from the other Shredder's who knew they were evil and didn't care.

Nick Shredder believed he was right all the time and lied to himself so much that he became a victim to his own lies. I find it pretty sad actually how he had basically trapped himself in a never ending vicious cycle.

Even in his worst moment as Super Shredder, when fighting Leonardo in the final battle, he hesitated for a moment when Leonardo called him a monster and a demon. Its really subtle and well done.

[The Master Meglomaniac]

Most of them still had some pretty complex backstories. I think it's just what you do with the a-holeness that makes it work.

Comparing 23K Ch'rell to Palpatine is probably going to give Palpatine the win. Mostly because I think Palpatine is more intimidating, partly because unlike Ch'rell, he was able to succeed in his goals for a good while.

You can have an "a-hole villain", but sometimes that can be detrimental to the characterization. Such is the case with 23K Ch'rell. He was...one-note, shall we say.

Ch'rell took over the world in the future, killed millions of beings through out the galaxy and almost destroyed reality, that's pretty good track record.

Palpatine is just pure evil at the end of the day and really there are tons of villains who fit that same type, whether they work or not depends on the story:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CompleteMonste

[Ninjinister]

IDW's Mutagen Man is very high on the sympathetic list. Poor guy breaks my heart.


I don't know if I'd ever call him a villain.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Krang.

Archie Krang was extremely brutal. He destroyed entire planets in Dimension X, killing all lifeforms on them.

[Candy Kappa]

I find Mirage Shredder being very sympathetic as he is the hero in his own story. The guy trained from age 8 to 18 to become one of the best in the Foot to avenge the death of his brother, and he did avenge what he probably thought was a great man.

[neatoman]

Least sympathetic, I guess Ch'rell is a good choice in that case. His motivation is basically wanting to get revenge for being sentanced, a sentance he got for commiting genocide and other planetary atricities, simply in the name of his ego. You don't much more unsympathetic than that.

Most sympathetic is a harder one, does the original Rat King, Leatherhead, Zog or Old Hob count? Rat King just wanted to be left alone, Leatherhead was just angry at the end of the day, Zog didn't know what he was doing and Hob does questionable things but none of these really feel like villains.

If I had to pick an actual villain, I guess IDW Hun? He is an abusive father, alcoholic and crime boss. He's clearly not a good person, nor does he really try to be, but you get the feeling he knows what he does is wrong and isn't happy about it. Instead of trying to better himself in a healthy way, he just tries to substitute awful behaviour for other awful behaviour. He's this ****ed up kind of person who do exist in the real world, so it doesn't feel forced like an attempt to make a villain sympathetic tends to do.

[Wesley]

I’ve never read the comics, but I’d say OT Baxter Stockman, OT Shredder and Max Winters (from Tmnt 2007) are the most sympathetic while Utrom Shredder, 1990 movie Shredder and Lord Dregg are the least sympathetic.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Surgically removed his own brain to implant it into a cybernetic robot? Check.

Archie's Verminator X did such things, not for being wounded but for inmortality.

[neatoman]

OT Shredder

Sympathetic is not the same thing as pathetic. He's a loser who can't wield his power correctly but that doesn't mean we feel sorry for him any way, he still wants to take over the world for no good reason and it's never implied there's anything remotely tragic about him.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Yeah, he was a comedic villain. Nothing sad about him although I did find him very likeable.

[Wesley]

Sympathetic is not the same thing as pathetic. He's a loser who can't wield his power correctly but that doesn't mean we feel sorry for him any way, he still wants to take over the world for no good reason and it's never implied there's anything remotely tragic about him.

When you put it like that, you’re right, neatoman. He was a likable villain, though.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

The only time I found OT shredder sympathetic was in Turtles Forever when he fought against Utrom Shredder alongside the turtles to save the multiverse.

Ch'rell's relationship with Karai came off as somewhat sympathetic to me as well.

[IndigoErth]

Off the top of my head... agree with OT Baxter. OT and 2003 Rat King probably too... he never asked to be what he was, be it an experiment or just some guy that wasn't right in he head, even if it made him bad. Maybe OT Slash for similar reasons.

2012 Baxter maybe a tiny bit. 2003 however, hell no; too evil at heart, he deserved whatever he got.

[ProphetofGanja]

The only time I found OT shredder sympathetic was in Turtles Forever when he fought against Utrom Shredder alongside the turtles to save the multiverse.

Ch'rell's relationship with Karai came off as somewhat sympathetic to me as well.

I would argue that Shredder came off as more of a pathetic character than a sympathetic one in Turtles Forever. Crucial difference.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

For most of the movie yes, he was shown to be utterly pathetic, as were almost all the Original Cartoon characters in that film.

However, Original Cartoon Shredder (and Krang) saw Ch'rell's attempt at destroying the multi-verse to be too insane (even by their standards) and showed some humanity.

Despite being out of character since Shredder and Krang had no problem with destroying the world in The Old Toon and the Nick crossovers, that moment did come off as sympathetic.

Another moment of Original Cartoon Shredder being somewhat sympathetic came to my mind when I remembered how he was in season 8 and 10. A lot more vicious and serious, but also very close to Krang rather than always arguing with him. He even gave his own blood to save Krang who was drained by Dregg.

[Shark_Blade]

Most sympathetic: Karai, having a sad excuse of a father like Shredder. This applies to 2k3 & Nick version.

Least sympathetic: Timothy/Mutagen Man from Nick TMNT. Good riddance he's dead - so annoying and pathetic.

[Prowler]

FW Bebop and Rocksteady. They're hard to hate, really. They're a comedic duo.

I wouldn't really call FW Baxter sympathetic... but I do pity him.

Chrell was the first one I thought for least sympathetic. Dregg also wasn't sympathetic at all.

As for one-shot villains... that guy who wanted to turn the Turtles into wax in the FW series. Couldn't stand that guy.

[PApagreg]

I wouldn't really call FW Baxter sympathetic... but I do pity him.


Out of curiosity why would't you call FW Baxter sympathetic

[The Master Meglomaniac]

The only time I found OT shredder sympathetic was in Turtles Forever when he fought against Utrom Shredder alongside the turtles to save the multiverse.

Ch'rell's relationship with Karai came off as somewhat sympathetic to me as well.

I do not think Ch'rell cares about Karai and sees her as anything but a tool, he tried to kill her when she stopped him from killing Leo and was willing to let her die when he tried to destroy the multiverse.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I do not think Ch'rell cares about Karai and sees her as anything but a tool, he tried to kill her when she stopped him from killing Leo and was willing to let her die when he tried to destroy the multiverse.

True, Ch'rell may have raised Karai and all, but he was pretty ruthless and uncaring overall. I find Nick Shredder to be much more sympathetic when it came to his relationship with Karai.

[Utrommaniac]

I personally think that Karai should have been his Achilles Heel. It would at least give him at least a bit more dimension and potentially raise questions about his full backstory even if it was never going to be fully explained.

[Prowler]

Out of curiosity why would't you call FW Baxter sympathetic
He was a bad guy right from the start. The only episode where you could say otherwise was his debut episode.

[PApagreg]

He was a bad guy right from the start. The only episode where you could say otherwise was his debut episode.

I mean if he was good in his debut episode that means he wasn't a bad guy from the start.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

As for one-shot villains... that guy who wanted to turn the Turtles into wax in the FW series. Couldn't stand that guy.

Monroe Q. Flem

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Monroe Q. Flem

A name! It has a name! :o

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

A name! It has a name! :o

Not the best episode, but I at least liked the design of his robots once the wax melted.

[cammy85]

OT Shredder did eventually get very sympathetic and not just when he saved Krang. I remember a very brief moment in Turtle Trek where it looked like Shredder actually had genuine remorse for Leonardo almost being crushed in that factory; almost like a "What have I become?" moment. I also figured that also explained why they made no attempt to return to Earth in Season 9 and 10 other than being kidnapped by Dregg.

Human Baxter had pretty much gone insane after his first appearance so maybe his fate as a fly was good for him. You do feel bad for him because he never gets that chance to be human. On the other side of the coin, he'd still be looking at serious jail time if he did get demutated and captured.

Flem... now there was a character. It was rare to see another villain (even a one or two shot) on the syndicated episodes and this guy was something else. He was indeed annoying, but it was a refreshing concept nonetheless. I even brought him back in a fanfic to create the series' answer to Mekaturtle from the first NES game.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

remember a very brief moment in Turtle Trek where it looked like Shredder actually had genuine remorse for Leonardo almost being crushed in that factory; almost like a "What have I become?" moment.

Me too, I am also intrigued by that moment. I wonder if the writers/animators made it happen on purpose or was it just a mistake? Either way, its surreal how for a moment he looks sad as Leonardo is abou to get crushed then after he is saved, goes back to being evil.

[Utrommaniac]

OT Baxter definitely has huge sympathy points.

All he wanted was to help his city with a severe pest problem, and that got him rejected, pushed around, and mutated into a monster.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

mutated into a monster.

I think it was just a way of writing him out of the series in a time of censors.

[pferreira]

I'd say the most sympathetic villain was Baxter...somehow...

[oldmanwinters]

I find Mirage Shredder being very sympathetic as he is the hero in his own story. The guy trained from age 8 to 18 to become one of the best in the Foot to avenge the death of his brother, and he did avenge what he probably thought was a great man.

It's amazing that in all the Mirage tales ever told, I can't think of one of them that expanded upon the relationship between Saki and Nagi, which is the impetus for the entire TMNT storyline.

[cammy85]

I'd say the most sympathetic villain was Baxter...somehow...

I do agree. Up until his mutation, he was Shredder's stooge and his deeper descents into insanity made viewers who understood made you feel sorry for him for sure. After that, there were the multiple times he could've returned to human form but Shredder kept going back on his word.

[pferreira]

I do agree. Up until his mutation, he was Shredder's stooge and his deeper descents into insanity made viewers who understood made you feel sorry for him for sure. After that, there were the multiple times he could've returned to human form but Shredder kept going back on his word.Exactly! Very much this. :)

[miru]

Too be fair Mirage Stockman is pretty unsympathetic, he put his brain into a cyborg on purpose, killed a bunch of people for petty revenge, infected April with nanobots, terrorized NYC for fun, etc. He deserved his fate. Most other versions of Stockman are sympathetic though.

Most versions of Karai are pretty sympathetic. The Nano monster from the 2003 cartoon was pretty sympathetic and Slash from the 2012 cartoon developed from a creepy villain to a hero over time. The 2012 version of Mutagen Man was pitiable, a shame nothing really happened with him.

Even the original Mirage Shredder is one of the more sympathetic versions of the character, really he became a villain to avenge his brother, that is a more sympathetic motive then Shredder usual gets.

In terms of truly evil TMNT villains, there are a fair amount: Utrom Shredder, Tengu Shredder, 87 Dregg, Mirage Skonk and Savanti Romero, Archie Mr. Null, the Nick versions of Rat King, Krang and Kavaxas are all define by ruthless cruelty in one way or another.


Those plus Bloodsucker, Archie Krang, Maligna, and 90s movie Shredder, are all very much depraved and awful individuals. On the other hand, I do sympathise quite a bit with some of the Foot in Mirage that got backstories, like in "Cold, Cold Ice".

[Toxin45]

Eh I find Baxter Stocman from the 2003 series to be pitful