Government Shutdown

[Andrew NDB]

http://15130-presscdn-0-89.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/mitch-mcconnell.jpg

How do you feel about the government shutdown? Is it impacting you or anyone you know? Is saving DACA worth shutting the government down to you?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Oh hey, the feds shut down again... yeah, I'm not impressed. People in suits not playing nicely while civilian lives and welfare hangs in the balance. Whoda thunk?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

So they aren't getting paid, because they aren't doing their jobs. Good. Might motivate them to get off their rears. Don't forget, the government runs on tax dollars, so if they want to just let that money sit there or go to other things while they dither around, fine by me.

[Redeemer]

So they aren't getting paid, because they aren't doing their jobs. Good. Might motivate them to get off their rears. Don't forget, the government runs on tax dollars, so if they want to just let that money sit there or go to other things while they dither around, fine by me.

Actually congress is still getting full pay regardless of the shutdownhttps://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/22/how-much-members-of-congress-get-paid-even-when-the-government-is-shut-down.html

These shutdowns are ridiculous, we are losing millions of dollars from the economy because of this shutdown and while they all still get paid, people who get military death benefits don't. The IRS is shutdown so taxpayers cant get their tax return down (Federal). It so stupid these idiots keep holding the country hostage, because of extremist politics.
So the last shut down was cause by republicans wanting to get rid of the healthcare bill and now the democrats are doing it for illegal immigrants/dreamers for deca correct? Its just ridiculous this happened a second time in five years. Before this we hadn't had shutdown since 95'. so stupid.
These issues are important, but there is no reason fo this

[Autbot_Benz]

Not surprised because that Turtle looking mother****er Mitch the Bitch Mconnell is the biggest useless piece of crap that we have in congress. Man he really pisses me off.

[ProactiveMan]

The way the world works nowadays, you probably won't even notice.

[plastroncafe]

and now the democrats are doing it for illegal immigrants/dreamers for deca correct?



Incorrect.
Or a very least highly debatable.
The Republican party used the annual simple majority budgetary vote to work their tax code revisions through the Senate without requiring the need for bipartisan support.

Meaning that this vote would require 60 yeas and not a simple majority as is usually the case.

[Redeemer]

Incorrect.
Or a very least highly debatable.
The Republican party used the annual simple majority budgetary vote to work their tax code revisions through the Senate without requiring the need for bipartisan support.

Meaning that this vote would require 60 yeas and not a simple majority as is usually the case.

Source??? As far as I know any bill for the senate takes 50/51(Vice president) to pass a bill.

Are you talking about a phillabuster? which that would take 60 to end.
I am sorry I am just confused by the statement honestly, bc as I said it should only take a simple majority vote to pass any bill.
And also I thought they passed the new tax code back in December????

[plastroncafe]

The budget isn't just any bill, and there are some things which require 2/3rds vote.

https://twitter.com/mcclure111/status/954840110348034054

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/what-is-reconciliation/ (https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/what-is-reconciliation/)

[IndigoErth]

It's happened before and we survived it... Not terribly a big deal, save for those actually directly impacted. (Such as the families that won't, at least not so soon, be getting the death benefits they're owed from troops that were killed after a helicopter crash Saturday -- if I correctly recall what I heard in passing.)

I just wish these politicians didn't get paid in the duration of it. It might help them come to some kind of workable middle ground solutions sooner.

[Katie]

Yeah, boring. Happened before. Whatever. Its all just grandstanding instead of actually doing something.

You know what would be great? If congress could stop trying to polarize to either extreme and maybe come together and compromise and get those 60 (or more) votes and stop worrying about Twitter for awhile.

[mrmaczaps]

The Dems shut down the Government to try to keep illegals here... while the military didn't get paid for a few days... Dems for illegals over American's.

[plastroncafe]

Which is exactly why the shutdown ended when the Republicans finally agreed to fund a Children's Healthcare initiative that they let expired back in September.

A Children's Healthcare initiative that recipients of DACA don't qualify for.

[Autbot_Benz]

The Dems shut down the Government to try to keep illegals here... while the military didn't get paid for a few days... Dems for illegals over American's.

yet a dem tried to get a bill passed so Military would get paid during the shutdown and Mitch The Bitch Mcconnell objected it. But ya keep believing what fox news tells you. If you think The Conservatives care about the military I laugh at you

LQVa3N45R4k

[Candy Kappa]

The "ultimate deal maker" and majority control... It'd be hilarious if it didn't affect people's lives.

[plastroncafe]

yet a dem tried to get a bill passed so Military would get paid during the shutdown and Mitch The Bitch Mcconnell objected it. But ya keep believing what fox news tells you. If you think The Conservatives care about the military I laugh at you

LQVa3N45R4k

I think the GOP cares about the military, I don't think they care about soldiers.
Kind of like the same way paper companies care about the forest, but less so the trees.

[IndigoErth]

Hm, true... the might and power and the stereotypical he-man manliness fantasy ideal in their heads, rather than the human part of it that sacrifices so much by agreeing to be a part of it and are normal mortals trying to deal with stupid stuff we humans shouldn't start to begin with and greatly impacts those involved, both during and after they come come. :ohwell:

[Prowler]

Belgium once went about a year or two without a government per se. They managed fine.

[Andrew NDB]

So the government has been (partially) shut down for a couple of weeks now. Thoughts?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

So the government has been (partially) shut down for a couple of weeks now. Thoughts?

Was I supposed to notice?

[IndigoErth]

Well, as I posted in the gear grind thread a little bit ago, I just found that, should I need to file a possible medical identity theft with the FTC because I got a bill in the mail from VSP vision care who I am not a customer of, I can't because that part of the FTC's website and services are closed down.

I hope calling that company's customer number or their fraud number I found via their site will be enough. But how can I ever really know that someone isn't trying to use my info.



edit: And should the shutdown last for "months" as Trump has proudly claimed if he has to.... well, then no one is getting their tax refund when they would normally expect it, so sooner or later all will notice. (But you still gotta file.)

[Andrew NDB]

edit: And should the shutdown last for "months" as Trump has proudly claimed if he has to.... well, then no one is getting their tax refund when they would normally expect it, so sooner or later all will notice. (But you still gotta file.)

Not true (https://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2019/01/07/white-house-says-irs-will-pay-tax-refunds-during-government-shutdown/#5f86b6015554).

[IndigoErth]

Well good. I see that article is from today. Others prior were saying it would be delayed.

[Autbot_Benz]

So the government has been (partially) shut down for a couple of weeks now. Thoughts?

All because of Trump and his stupid Border Wall. I feel for all those government workers who are furloughed who won't get paid because of the orange Idiot.

[Andrew NDB]

All because of Trump and his stupid Border Wall.

Or conversely, because of the Democrats and their unwillingness to budge on a meager 5 billion dollars for border security.

I feel for all those government workers who are furloughed who won't get paid because of the orange Idiot.

They'll get paid eventually. It sucks, but this is part of the risk in working in government. As with the last shutdown, and the one before that. This isn't some new concept at play here.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Or conversely, because of the Democrats and their unwillingness to budge on a meager 5 billion dollars for border security.

Support the wall or not, we should NOT be throwing around the word "meager" when it comes to billions.

The national debt, combining the populace and the government, is upwards of $20 trillion. That bubble's gonna burst sometime... throwing $5 billion for anti-Mexican bricks isn't gonna help matters.

[Voltron]

$5 billion is way too much money.

AMERICANS SHOULD NOT PAY FOR THE WALL.

I was assured, time and again, that Mexico would not only pay for the wall, but they'd be happy to do so. Where are the pesos?

[Andrew NDB]

But even when well over 100 billion is spent yearly on deporting illegal immigrants that are caught, or the 90% of "asylum seekers" whose claims are deemed by a judge to be invalid are sent back with bed and breakfast and free airfare to their country? You're telling me 5 billion is a lot in this equation?

Even if 10% is staved away by this in a given year... we've saved money.

[Mayhem]

Walls don't work. Unless you are going to patrol and monitor and arm it along the entire length like they did in Berlin. Thing is, the Berlin Wall was magnitudes shorter than the proposed wall here, and people got through. You put just a wall up, nothing else, people are still going to go over and under it.

Besides, the majority of illegals in the US came in through legal routes and have overstayed and/or never gone back.

So I'm not surprised the Democrats are objecting because it will be a waste of money.

And I'm really not surprised by this either: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/trump-shutdown-government-did-not-know.html

[Candy Kappa]

Besides, the majority of illegals in the US came in through legal routes and have overstayed and/or never gone back.

This.

A wall isn't going to fix anything, and 5 billion dollars are not "meager"... jesus ****ing christ how out of touch you gotta be to write that. Either math is hard or you're Scrooge McDuck

[Voltron]

Yes, I'm telling you $5 billion is a lot to spend on a wall to stop airplanes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

There's plenty of other, non-ridiculous things we could be doing to stop this problem.

I'd also like to point out that this isn't really a huge deal, since illegal immigration is at an all time low according to all reports.

On top of that, we have a crumbling infrastructure. We could easily put a bunch of money towards updating the highways, roads, and bridges in the United States. This would create tons of jobs AND benefit all Americans. It'd make our lives safer and, in time, easier if it eased congested traffic areas.

We could put that money towards scientific research. That's always proven to be a wise investment. I read somewhere that every dollar invested into NASA yields $6-$7 in return.

The wall is a broken promise. The American people were PROMISED Mexico would pay for it. And now WE have to cough up a $5.7 billion.

There's a gofundme right now where all of his supporters can throw away their cash. Me? I'll keep my hard earned money in my pocket and wait for a politician who isn't full of crap.

Again:

AMERICANS SHOULDN'T PAY FOR THE WALL.

[Candy Kappa]

wow, speaking of the gofundme, it's at $19,558,343. This Brian guy is getting loaded

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

But even when well over 100 billion is spent yearly on deporting illegal immigrants that are caught, or the 90% of "asylum seekers" whose claims are deemed by a judge to be invalid are sent back with bed and breakfast and free airfare to their country? You're telling me 5 billion is a lot in this equation?

Even if 10% is staved away by this in a given year... we've saved money.

Looking at it from that perspective, that's a fair point I hadn't considered.

[Andrew NDB]

Walls don't work.

That's simply not true. There exist a flotilla of examples of walls that have and do work throughout the world.

"But if it's not manned there's no point!"

Of course there is. You can't walk through it, unless you brought a tall ladder with you or metal cutting equipment and have a Cenobite-like fetish for razor wire... so I wager that reduces the people willing or able to cross by at least 75%. And as long as there's an actual wall in place instead of just little 2 feet tall bars you can hop over or nothing at all, proximity stuff can be installed at some point to alert the nearest Border Patrol -- this is Step One.

[AquaParade]

wow, speaking of the gofundme, it's at $19,558,343. This Brian guy is getting loaded

Interesting.

I'd say I'm about average when it comes to keeping up with politics, and I'm a little behind on the exact details of this particular issue.

Would this Go Fund me actually get the wall built? In other words, is cost the main roadblock when it comes to getting this wall built? I know Trump wants it, wanted Mexico to pay for it, etc, but with the money raised, what else is standing in the way?

I mean it can't be that simple, but is it? I know there's much more to be discussed regarding the eligibility of the wall, besides how much it costs, but I'm not exactly tuned in on what those other major factors are at the moment.

[Autbot_Benz]

Can't wait for Trump's Address tonight. I can already smell the BS and lies he is gonna spew.

[Andrew NDB]

Can't wait for Trump's Address tonight. I can already smell the BS and lies he is gonna spew.

It's pretty annoying the number of people on my social media who are making posts just to let the world know that they won't be watching the address. It's like the people who make it a point to say proudly (or post memes thereto), "I've never watched Game of Thrones/Breaking Bad/Walking Dead."

Nobody cares.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

It's pretty annoying the number of people on my social media who are making posts just to let the world know that they won't be watching the address. It's like the people who make it a point to say proudly (or post memes thereto), "I've never watched Game of Thrones/Breaking Bad/Walking Dead."

Nobody cares.

If you've never watched Breaking Bad, you're a terrible human being. Fight me. :trazz:

[Andrew NDB]

If you've never watched Breaking Bad, you're a terrible human being. Fight me. :trazz:

Everyone needs to see that show. At least give it two episodes to see if it's for you. I was leery about the show but I was hooked right away with the first episode.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Everyone needs to see that show. At least give it two episodes to see if it's for you. I was leery about the show but I was hooked right away with the first episode.

I am relieved to hear that you are not a terrible human being. :trazz:

[IndigoErth]

And I'm really not surprised by this either: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/trump-shutdown-government-did-not-know.html
Oh brother...

http://i.imgur.com/AhfHxzF.gif

It this point it's a wonder if he even understands how a toilet flushes. (And not even the "complicated" parts.)


Given all that go on about other people and their supposed "feels," it's amazingly ironic that here is a guy who wants to 'rule' this country largely based on whims and gut feelings. I guess no one ever told him that impulsive decisions aren't a good way to run a government. Or near anything for that matter.

But don't worry... he "can relate."

[Redeemer]

Yes, I'm telling you $5 billion is a lot to spend on a wall to stop airplanes. That's exactly what I'm saying.

There's plenty of other, non-ridiculous things we could be doing to stop this problem.

I'd also like to point out that this isn't really a huge deal, since illegal immigration is at an all time low according to all reports.

On top of that, we have a crumbling infrastructure. We could easily put a bunch of money towards updating the highways, roads, and bridges in the United States. This would create tons of jobs AND benefit all Americans. It'd make our lives safer and, in time, easier if it eased congested traffic areas.

We could put that money towards scientific research. That's always proven to be a wise investment. I read somewhere that every dollar invested into NASA yields $6-$7 in return.

The wall is a broken promise. The American people were PROMISED Mexico would pay for it. And now WE have to cough up a $5.7 billion.

There's a gofundme right now where all of his supporters can throw away their cash. Me? I'll keep my hard earned money in my pocket and wait for a politician who isn't full of crap.

Again:

AMERICANS SHOULDN'T PAY FOR THE WALL.

Illegal immigration is Definitely not at an all time low. In fact the illegal immigration population has tripled in size since the 90's. But it looks like it has actually stabilized and even gone do slightly the past few years.

Source: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/

I agree with everything else Voltron. From my understanding most illegal immigrants come through legal means and many simply overstay when they were legally allowed to be here, example cars.(Don't know if this is a majority or minority of illegal immigrants.)

This money would be better spent on repairing failing infrastructure and schools. I believe expanding border patrols and ICE's budget to help enforce existing laws would be more beneficial and effective. (IMO)

A wall sounds like a good idea at first and it worked for China :lol: but in this day of age and with this specific problem I feel like the Wall would be ineffective.

[Autbot_Benz]

Trump's "Address" in a nutshell

https://i.imgur.com/HxJ8kmS.gif

https://i.imgur.com/ZuUCVxw.gif

[Andrew NDB]

And again, illegal immigration "reports" are based on the ones they managed to catch. How on earth can they track all the ones who sneak into and stay here and are never caught? Or can there be any data on that? There are thousands upon thousands here in WA. I literally know of 90% more illegal immigrant Mexicans than I do legal ones and that's just out here in the city.

It'd be like saying, "people that break into my garage and drink water from my faucet at 3 AM is down 20% this year" when you don't have any cameras in the garage and you have no way to track how much water was taken or how many people came, other than the fact that you see footprints.

[Andrew NDB]

I mean, think about it. They can easily track and see who got visas to come here, came here (yes, on a plane most likely), let them lapse, and then show no record of them returning home. This is data we have, yes, because it is data available to us.

It is very easy to say the leading illegal immigration is people that came here with visas with ZERO data on the ones that simply cross illegally on foot or vehicle through soft or open spots in the border. Because there is no paper trail. We can count the ones they catch... but that tells us nothing about the bigger picture.

[Voltron]

Are you saying we have no idea how many illegal immigrants are currently in the United States?

Would it be safe to assume that ANYONE I meet in my daily life may be, in fact, an illegal immigrant here to steal my job and usurp my place in my family?

Andrew. . . a-are you an illegal immigrant?

Also, friendly reminder: please don't double post. Use the edit button to add to an existing post.

[Refractive Reflections]

At least the Democrats support building the wall! ...Right?
HmdiisLr5ug

Isreali Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, I'm sure would love to hear how ineffective walls are for a country's security.

[Andrew NDB]

Are you saying we have no idea how many illegal immigrants are currently in the United States?

Absolutely. Tell me how they would, otherwise. Almost all illegal immigrants that make it in have some semblance of family already here at this point that help them out. And they stay under the radar and waste no time having anchor babies and look forward to making a killing come tax time. For a while now it is a network that feeds itself... I see it everyday. These (most) aren't bad people but they are breaking the law and this isn't anything we should be rolling the red carpet for even more than we already are.

Would it be safe to assume that ANYONE I meet in my daily life may be, in fact, an illegal immigrant here to steal my job and usurp my place in my family?

Your place in your family? That's a very strange thing to say. What do you mean by that? In terms of steal your job... not necessarily, but possibly. In terms of the hiring process, and slightly dependant on your trade.

And "steal" is probably not the right word. Most of the ones I know have some semblance of papers they "got" and have worked enough bouncing around that they've built up a genuine resume with references... so it's yours vs. theirs. But when they legally shouldn't even be here to begin with...

Andrew. . . a-are you an illegal immigrant?

Nope. My mother is a 100% legal South American Colombian immigrant who fought long and hard to come here until her application was approved and she did. You know, actual (legal) immigration. She met my father here, a Boeing electromagnetic engineer, and now here I am. The push to award sneaky border crossers (note: not asylum seekers with legitimate cases, which account for 10% of those claiming that) the same privaleges she fought tooth and nail for years the right way sickens her... and sickens me, too.

Maybe it's just me but there appears to be a growing disconnect about the education on immigration. i.e., a whole generation is thinking that immigration is just barging into the U.S. and hopefully they can stay, that that's the only way. Or barring that, the only other immigration routes are asylum or refugee status. It's very strange. Applying for actual, legal immigration to the United States is a very real thing and has been here for decades.

But now we have the typical liberal agenda attempting to control the language. "Illegal immigrants" become "undocumented immigrants" in the media so people become unclear and just lump the illegal immigration in with the legal... when those are pretty freaking worlds apart.

[Redeemer]

Absolutely. Tell me how they would, otherwise. Almost all illegal immigrants that make it in have some semblance of family already here at this point that help them out. And they stay under the radar and waste no time having anchor babies and look forward to making a killing come tax time. For a while now it is a network that feeds itself... I see it everyday. These (most) aren't bad people but they are breaking the law and this isn't anything we should be rolling the red carpet for even more than we already are.



Your place in your family? That's a very strange thing to say. What do you mean by that? In terms of steal your job... not necessarily, but possibly. In terms of the hiring process, and slightly dependant on your trade.

And "steal" is probably not the right word. Most of the ones I know have some semblance of papers they "got" and have worked enough bouncing around that they've built up a genuine resume with references... so it's yours vs. theirs. But when they legally shouldn't even be here to begin with...



Nope. My mother is a 100% legal South American Colombian immigrant who fought long and hard to come here until her application was approved and she did. You know, actual (legal) immigration. She met my father here, a Boeing electromagnetic engineer, and now here I am. The push to award sneaky border crossers (note: not asylum seekers with legitimate cases, which account for 10% of those claiming that) the same privaleges she fought tooth and nail for years the right way sickens her... and sickens me, too.

Maybe it's just me but there appears to be a growing disconnect about the education on immigration. i.e., a whole generation is thinking that immigration is just barging into the U.S. and hopefully they can stay, that that's the only way. Or barring that, the only other immigration routes are asylum or refugee status. It's very strange. Applying for actual, legal immigration to the United States is a very real thing and has been here for decades.

But now we have the typical liberal agenda attempting to control the language. "Illegal immigrants" become "undocumented immigrants" in the media so people become unclear and just lump the illegal immigration in with the legal... when those are pretty freaking worlds apart.

Andrew I am "assuming" they are drawing numbers from the national census, number of captures, number of border captures, number of visas applicants that did not leave. The statistics could be drawn from any of these or a combination of all them. The article I listed in previous post shows some pretty good educated estimates.

The numbers are not precise, but I believe they give a good representation of the illegal immigration population.


Also in regards to your family backstory I cannot only imagine illegal immigration being a slap in the face to those who worked so hard to legally immigrate to the U.S. and to ultimately become citizens.

[Mayhem]

A wall sounds like a good idea at first and it worked for China :lol:
It did, and it didn't, in the end the Mongols and others just went around it, and eventually through it when it was properly tested.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/06/great-wall-china-donald-trump-border-mexico

Some interesting comparisons as you brought the Wall up.

But to hark back to previous points, a wall by itself can be deterrent but in today's age, with drugs coming into the US from Mexico anyhow, it won't eventually keep out the determined people. Sure, yes, it may deter the casual fence hopper, but as already noted, most illegals never entered illegally. They came via legal routes and never went back.

It's somewhat equivalent to a Brexit discussion point in a way. Many people voted for Brexit because they were "sick of people coming here and taking our jobs". Sound familiar? The key point was though that despite migration from Europe to the UK had been increasing, immigration from the rest of the world to the UK has always been higher since we joined (1973) and we have complete control over that! The fallacy was about taking back control, and we always did for the majority of this. Lies and more lies.

Now when I come to the US, I have to give an address of residence while here. Does that also apply to Mexicans crossing on foot into the US via a border point? Don't need a visa, just a passport? Half a million people cross at San Diego EACH DAY btw, it's the busiest border crossing in the world. Unless you massively increase manning, you're going to have to rush things a bit to get everyone through in time. So better pre-checks and more people so you can check more thoroughly.

And quite easy to give a false address, you are relying on peoples' honesty. Like when the ESTA form asks if I've been a terrorist, kidnapped anyone or been a member of the Nazi party...! :lol:

[Voltron]

I'm going to say something, and I hope it doesn't come across too crass.

You know the Trump administration expanded the practice of stripping naturalized citizens of their citizenship, right? It's called denaturalization.

I mean, what then? What if someone decided your mother was a "bad hombre"? It's not outside the realm of possibility. Would you put your faith in people who feel that neo-nazis are "fine people"?

According to some of them, she's not an American citizen. I mean, not really. Not to them.

And to be clear: I am not insinuating that Ithink this. But there are people out their clamoring for a big, expensive, mostly useless wall. And those same people have SS tattoos on them. And they have ethnocentric ideals that very much put immigrants and foreigners in the cross hairs.

That's who you're throwing your lot in with. Not saying you're a Nazi, or a racist, or some "deplorable". But those kinds of people would be really happy to hear you talking about it.

But bear in mind: these people aren't doing it for some noble reason. They're doing it because their ****ing nuts. They are racists and bigots and generally rotten people who only want to hurt other people.

Anything we give them on this issue is a step in the wrong direction. Every inch they take just makes them bolder. And while there is a discussion to be had about immigration and border control, this isn't it. It shouldn't be framed like this. An ineffective wall sold to the American people through lies by a noted conman is not an option here. It never will be.

What if Trump does get it? Then what? He's going to want something else. Those terrible people will still want something more.

Read the last bit of this article. This, to me, encapsulates the pathos of what we're dealing with really well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html

At what point does this become too much for you to ignore? At what point does this stop being zero-sum politics and start being a discussion about smarter, less destructive ways to live together?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Anything we give them on this issue is a step in the wrong direction. Every inch they take just makes them bolder. And while there is a discussion to be had about immigration and border control, this isn't it. It shouldn't be framed like this. An ineffective wall sold to the American people through lies by a noted conman is not an option here. It never will be.[/URL]

At what point does this become too much for you to ignore? At what point does this stop being zero-sum politics and start being a discussion about smarter, less destructive ways to live together?

Unfortunately, it seems to be a very popular option. But you did a great job of summarizing.

[Andrew NDB]

Andrew I am "assuming" they are drawing numbers from the national census, number of captures, number of border captures, number of visas applicants that did not leave. The statistics could be drawn from any of these or a combination of all them. The article I listed in previous post shows some pretty good educated estimates.

The numbers are not precise, but I believe they give a good representation of the illegal immigration population.

Again, none of those things can have ANY data on the illegal immigrants that came here across the border illegally successfully. There is NO paper trail for these people.

How do you get numbers on something where there is no way to track it? You don't. Comparing said nonexistent numbers against ones that do exist (the visa applicants that don't leave) as proof positive to prove a point is pretty stupid. Certainly meaningless.

You know the Trump administration expanded the practice of stripping naturalized citizens of their citizenship, right? It's called denaturalization.

I mean, what then? What if someone decided your mother was a "bad hombre"? It's not outside the realm of possibility. Would you put your faith in people who feel that neo-nazis are "fine people"?

According to some of them, she's not an American citizen. I mean, not really. Not to them.

It really sounds like you're taking a very left-media, paranoid stance on matters. One unsubstantiated by anything that's actually happened and based on the "w-w-w-w-what if!" of sensationalist journalism and the talking heads on the "news" that are trying to tell us what we should be taking away from everything, ever. The same voices that told us Trump was going to deliver us into a certain nuclear war with North Korea.

Oh, I'm not worried about my mother, she'll be fine. The actual story is that Trump had lawyers looking into naturalized citizens that lied on their applications (https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/396923-trump-administration-now-has-naturalized-citizens-in-its-sights). My mother neither lied or had anything to lie about and that was 40 years ago.

There are no stories of naturalized citizens like this being scrutinized and stripped of it. That's not a thing.

And to be clear: I am not insinuating that Ithink this. But there are people out their clamoring for a big, expensive, mostly useless wall. And those same people have SS tattoos on them. And they have ethnocentric ideals that very much put immigrants and foreigners in the cross hairs.

You're kind of insinuating that. And this sounds a lot like the rationale around the time of the election that Trump is a horrible person because the KKK endorsed him. If I ran for governor tomorrow and they endorsed me unbeknownst to me, that hardly has anything to do with me or is any reflection on me.

That's who you're throwing your lot in with. Not saying you're a Nazi, or a racist, or some "deplorable". But those kinds of people would be really happy to hear you talking about it.

Now we're just talking about "the feels." I don't have anything in common with those people and, again, "illegal immigrant" is not a race.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Maybe it's just me but there appears to be a growing disconnect about the education on immigration. i.e., a whole generation is thinking that immigration is just barging into the U.S. and hopefully they can stay, that that's the only way. Or barring that, the only other immigration routes are asylum or refugee status. It's very strange. Applying for actual, legal immigration to the United States is a very real thing and has been here for decades.

But now we have the typical liberal agenda attempting to control the language. "Illegal immigrants" become "undocumented immigrants" in the media so people become unclear and just lump the illegal immigration in with the legal... when those are pretty freaking worlds apart.

I think one of the contributing factors or problems is that perhaps the bureaucracy and timeline for becoming a legal immigrant has greatly expanded in the last generation or two? But that's hearsay and an assumption on my part. I've got ancestors going back to the Civil War, so it's nothing I've ever personally experienced nor do I have any family history (that I know about).

In my personal experience, the argument about illegal immigration in my state is often fueled by racism. Or, at least, the racism becomes a bigger part of the argument than the facts. So I'll freely admit I'm not as educated as apparently some of you are; my stance can easily boil down to "I'm not one of THOSE Texans."

Actually, I'm finding this a very educational thread.

[Candy Kappa]

As if the US needs to "stripping naturalized citizens of their citizenship", you just need to be a couple of shades darker then transparent and ICE might be all over you, detain you for days and drop your ass in Mexico despite never been to Mexico. Like what they did to Mark Lyttle.

[neatoman]

Also in regards to your family backstory I cannot only imagine illegal immigration being a slap in the face to those who worked so hard to legally immigrate to the U.S. and to ultimately become citizens.

Did you mean "I can only"? Or did you mean to add a "but also" and just forgot? Because "I cannot only" is confusing.

[Andrew NDB]

As if the US needs to "stripping naturalized citizens of their citizenship", you just need to be a couple of shades darker then transparent

Many Mexicans don't have dark skin at all, you know. Just saying.

[Candy Kappa]

Many Mexicans don't have dark skin at all, you know. Just saying.

And they might be less likely to be deported like Lyttle was, despite Lyttle being a US-born citizen.

[IndigoErth]

For my fellow U.S. members, be mindful of what you're eating guys...

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/government-shutdown-stops-fda-food-safety-inspections-n956716

Seems the shutdown has impacted the FDA's food safety inspections. Article suggests they want/plan to try to get it going at least to some extent, but that requires getting some of their workers to return sans pay.

Soooo, yeah, maybe wash and cook stuff really good. (And aim for pre-shutdown packaging dates on things that can't be?)

:ohwell:

[Redeemer]

It did, and it didn't, in the end the Mongols and others just went around it, and eventually through it when it was properly tested.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/06/great-wall-china-donald-trump-border-mexico

Some interesting comparisons as you brought the Wall up.

But to hark back to previous points, a wall by itself can be deterrent but in today's age, with drugs coming into the US from Mexico anyhow, it won't eventually keep out the determined people. Sure, yes, it may deter the casual fence hopper, but as already noted, most illegals never entered illegally. They came via legal routes and never went back.

It's somewhat equivalent to a Brexit discussion point in a way. Many people voted for Brexit because they were "sick of people coming here and taking our jobs". Sound familiar? The key point was though that despite migration from Europe to the UK had been increasing, immigration from the rest of the world to the UK has always been higher since we joined (1973) and we have complete control over that! The fallacy was about taking back control, and we always did for the majority of this. Lies and more lies.

Now when I come to the US, I have to give an address of residence while here. Does that also apply to Mexicans crossing on foot into the US via a border point? Don't need a visa, just a passport? Half a million people cross at San Diego EACH DAY btw, it's the busiest border crossing in the world. Unless you massively increase manning, you're going to have to rush things a bit to get everyone through in time. So better pre-checks and more people so you can check more thoroughly.

And quite easy to give a false address, you are relying on peoples' honesty. Like when the ESTA form asks if I've been a terrorist, kidnapped anyone or been a member of the Nazi party...! :lol:

Mayhem that comment about the wall you quoted was supposed to be a joke :lol:

and also if you look at the link I provided in the post it actually indicates the majority of illegal immigrants actually entered illegally to begin with. I think it said about 55 or 60% came in illegally and the other 40-45% came in legally and never left.

The Brexit comparison is an interesting comparison.

[Redeemer]

Again, none of those things can have ANY data on the illegal immigrants that came here across the border illegally successfully. There is NO paper trail for these people.

How do you get numbers on something where there is no way to track it? You don't. Comparing said nonexistent numbers against ones that do exist (the visa applicants that don't leave) as proof positive to prove a point is pretty stupid. Certainly meaningless.


Andrew....... They can track people who are here illegally to a certain degree. They can track people who come here legally on visas who refuse to leave and become illegal immigrants. The another way they can track data is by number of apprehensions. They also can get numbers by the national census. They can compare the national census vs number of documented citizens and legal immigrants that are here. They have statistical data. Look in my earlier post or just go to the DHS homepage and you can find statistics on illegal immigration..... JUST PLEASE DO NOT BE DISMISSIVE WITHOUT PROVIDING PROOF OR SOME SORT OF EVIDENCE BACKING YOUR CLAIMS BEFORE HAPHAZARDLY DISMISSING THE STATISTICAL DATA I PROVIDED.....

[Mayhem]

Andrew....... They can track people who are here illegally to a certain degree. They can track people who come here legally on visas who refuse to leave and become illegal immigrants. The another way they can track data is by number of apprehensions. They also can get numbers by the national census. They can compare the national census vs number of documented citizens and legal immigrants that are here. They have statistical data. Look in my earlier post or just go to the DHS homepage and you can find statistics on illegal immigration..... JUST PLEASE DO NOT BE DISMISSIVE WITHOUT PROVIDING PROOF OR SOME SORT OF EVIDENCE BACKING YOUR CLAIMS BEFORE HAPHAZARDLY DISMISSING THE STATISTICAL DATA I PROVIDED.....
This is a country that doesn’t have a proper national computer system to tracking who owns all the firearms, you think it’s going to be the same for people? :o

To be fair, you’d think if they knew who had entered the country, and who had subsequently left, then the remainder must have stayed...!

[Redeemer]

This is a country that doesn’t have a proper national computer system to tracking who owns all the firearms, you think it’s going to be the same for people? :o

To be fair, you’d think if they knew who had entered the country, and who had subsequently left, then the remainder must have stayed...!

I know it does track people who enters this country. The reason the country cannot track guns appropriately is because of how lax gun sale laws are. There is no way to track gun sales, bc people do not have to report the sales. I can go sell a gun right now and not have to report it to anyone. Guns have serial numbers and in theory could be track like cars IF and only if people were forced to report the sales of firearms. Cars are easily tracked bc of vin numbers and the fact the people have to report the sales of cars to track them.

Point being tracking gun is not due to a shortfall of software development. but bc of lax gun sale laws.

[mrmaczaps]

I know it does track people who enters this country. The reason the country cannot track guns appropriately is because of how lax gun sale laws are. There is no way to track gun sales, bc people do not have to report the sales. I can go sell a gun right now and not have to report it to anyone. Guns have serial numbers and in theory could be track like cars IF and only if people were forced to report the sales of firearms. Cars are easily tracked bc of vin numbers and the fact the people have to report the sales of cars to track them.

Point being tracking gun is not due to a shortfall of software development. but bc of lax gun sale laws.

Sounds like you support socialism. Dangerous. This is America. There is no need at all to track gun sales or gun owners. That's something out of Nazi Germany. Going to make the big bad government come door to door, with guns, to find out who has what for guns? Talk about a bloodbath.

[Voltron]

How is any of what he said socialist? Do you even know what that word means? And the Nazis hated socialists. You literally can't be both.

YOU sound like one of those super-geniuses who think that Obama was a Muslim-Atheist, without knowing what either of those words mean.

[Autbot_Benz]

How is any of what he said socialist? Do you even know what that word means? And the Nazis hated socialists. You literally can't be both.

YOU sound like one of those super-geniuses who think that Obama was a Muslim-Atheist, without knowing what either of those words mean.

Don't waste your time with mrmaczaps dude is two scoops right wing stupid.Trust me I am saving you a long back and forth

[Voltron]

Don't waste your time with mrmaczaps dude is two scoops right wing stupid.Trust me I am saving you a long back and forth

Thanks for the tip. I'll save my breath.

Also, I edited the title to reflect the new shutdown, rather than the last one.

[Redeemer]

Sounds like you support socialism. Dangerous. This is America. There is no need at all to track gun sales or gun owners. That's something out of Nazi Germany. Going to make the big bad government come door to door, with guns, to find out who has what for guns? Talk about a bloodbath.

Well... Everyone in the U.S. already has a social security card, cars have titles and are forced to report when selling a car. Guns already have serial numbers and it would be nice to hold people accountable who commit gun violence you know..... :ohwell: and no none of what I said was semblance of socialism.....

Just so we are clear here is what socialism is by definition.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

[Andrew NDB]

Also, I edited the title to reflect the new shutdown, rather than the last one.

It is as much a Trump shutdown as it is a Democrat shutdown. Until now I've disagreed with you but you've been intelligent as you have cordial despite your obvious bias and you're not, like, banning people who don't agree with you as you easily could... but this is way out of line. I obviously did not make a thread called "Trump Shutdown," nor does that represent the reality of the situation beyond the liberal narrative.

You are literally changing the language to better align the world (or this forum, in this case) to your beliefs, ala the liberal cause. Par for the course. Disappointing.

[Candy Kappa]

It is a Trump shutdown.

[Andrew NDB]

It is a Trump shutdown.

There is a budget that is not agreed upon. Trump wants a meager (respective of the actual, yearly 100+ billion cost of dealing with illegal immigration) 5.7 billion, yes. The Democrats don't agree. The Democrats could say tomorrow, or an hour from now, "Fine, here's your 5.7 billion" and presto, the (full) government is back up and running. They could even be like, "OK, we will authorize the 5.7 billion... but we want ______." They're not even doing that. The power is equally in both parties' hands.

[Candy Kappa]

so now $5,700,000,000 is "meager" too

what happened to $5,000,000,000? Donald realized he needed more?

[Voltron]

It is as much a Trump shutdown as it is a Democrat shutdown. Until now I've disagreed with you but you've been intelligent as you have cordial despite your obvious bias and you're not, like, banning people who don't agree with you as you easily could... but this is way out of line. I obviously did not make a thread called "Trump Shutdown," nor does that represent the reality of the situation beyond the liberal narrative.

You are literally changing the language to better align the world (or this forum, in this case) to your beliefs, ala the liberal cause. Par for the course. Disappointing.

*AHEM*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--6mq58zw4s


It is disappointing that facts are of little use against the conservative propaganda machine.

The fact of the matter is that the United States was, is, and may very well remain under cyber attack by hostile, foreign powers. These agents have been shown to push conservative agendas in the pursuit of disrupting the American political process.

Every day, unknown numbers of saboteurs are acting against America's best interest by relentlessly dismantling our discourse. Many experts have said that these plots skewed the election to a different and, thus, unnatural result.

Obviously, this could very well be called a crisis. And while I'm not calling a state of emergency on the Drome, I have decided to use my giant a-brain and high IQ to help stop the dissemination of fake news in this thread. I would hate to lock the door on the WALL of this thread, you know?

People demand a tough, no-nonsense mod who tells it like it is. And that's what I did here. And I used the best words. Really.

If you still feel upset by this, I will happily discuss it with you after we come to a consensus on what irony and compromise mean. However, I must caution that I'm not going to go along with propaganda talking points.

As it stands, since Mr. Trump so vocally accepted blame for the entire shutdown, I see little reason as to why his name shouldn't be attached to it.

[BartAllen]

so now $5,700,000,000 is "meager" too

what happened to $5,000,000,000? Donald realized he needed more?

To the United States government? Yea, that's meager. Have you seen what they budget for the military? And the cost of paying for the permanent underclass that's going to be occupying the US living off of taxes for the rest of their lives? The 5 billion is chump change compared to what it's going to cost to house, feed, and educate these people. They're not interested in work. They're interested in having the government take care of them.

This isn't the 70's or 80's when a latino would come to the country, learn a trade, and add to society. A larger than not chunk of these people come to this country and simply live off of welfare.

Oh, and forget Trump. If you don't like him that's fine. Why not ask yourself why the majority of the people who claim to be against the wall/barrier/whatever had no problem with it while Obama was president? Both Pelosi and Schumer voted for a barrier at the border less than a decade ago.

Unfortunately, this is a measuring contest. Simple as that.

Do people still really believe the nonsense narrative that was pushed behind the steel dossier? There are liberals and progressives who admit that **** was fraudulent. Oh, and Russia didn't hack ****. They spent about 5,000 dollars on ads on social media. Yea, that's some hardcore election meddling. People really will believe whatever nonsense justifies their idiotic nonsense ideology.

Proof that the Russian meddling was barely anything. Listen. Absorb. That's not some right wing guy. That's the Google CEO talking about how much Russia 'interfered' with the election. FFS. Let that **** go. It didn't happen. Trump is not this uniquely bad monster. They're all ****ing horrible. They just have PR firms that make their horrible **** palatable.

https://youtu.be/emxUdrVVR8s

[Candy Kappa]

Just cause the US military budget is Eric Sacks level of stupid, doesn't diminish that 5 billion is a **** ton of money.

Besides, $5.7B is still $15B short of what the wall at minimum will cost

[Voltron]

Also, and I cannot stress this enough:

Trump said we wouldn't have to pay for the wall.

So, literally anything over $0.00 is an outrageous price tag. We were promised a free wall.

[BartAllen]

Just cause the US military budget is Eric Sacks level of stupid, doesn't diminish that 5 billion is a **** ton of money.

Besides, $5.7B is still $15B short of what the wall at minimum will cost

To the richest government in the world for the past 100 years? No, not really.

Also, and I cannot stress this enough:

Trump said we wouldn't have to pay for the wall.

So, literally anything over $0.00 is an outrageous price tag. We were promised a free wall.

Because politicians stick to all of their promises?

"If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor."
"No new taxes"
"Kuwaiti incubator babies"
"There are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq"

Trump is not unique in his nonsense promises. Yes, he is far more brash and idiotic in his presentation, but he is no way worse than anyone who preceded him. Everything Trump gets blamed for his predecessor did. Where was the condemnation then? Oh, I know, you liked Obummer, so it wasn't bad when he was doing just about everything Trump is doing now.

I'd give it to you that Trump was this uniquely bad presence if Obama didn't tear gas illegals at the border. If Obama didn't want the border wall when he was a senator. If Obama said that the AHCA was going to lower medical costs. If Obama didn't illegally start an armed conflict in Syria. I don't have the 'liberal smarts' to view him as this great beacon of "Hope" and "Change". He was horrible. He just dressed it up in pretty words and phrases.

I could even talk about the fact that Obama tried to have reporters arrested. I won't, though, as we need to focus on the fact that.. Orange man bad.

[Voltron]

Oh, wow. You sure showed me.

Hey, everyone! Don't worry, we figured it out! We can't complain about anything anymore because someone else already did it.

Flawless logic. That's what you've got. I have no idea what I was thinking, coming in against mental giants like this. I mean, had I known Bart was able to velcro his own shoes without supervision. . .

[BartAllen]

Oh, wow. You sure showed me.

Hey, everyone! Don't worry, we figured it out! We can't complain about anything anymore because someone else already did it.

Flawless logic. That's what you've got. I have no idea what I was thinking, coming in against mental giants like this. I mean, had I known Bart was able to velcro his own shoes without supervision. . .

... So you're saying you can in no way refute my statements so you result to ad hom attacks. Nice.

Wow and, even worse, you're a mod.

For the record: I'm not saying you shouldn't complain against Trump. I do all the time. His ideas about the environment are horrible. Him putting Rick Perry in charge of... well, pretty much anything is ****ing idiotic. Yes, there are plenty of things we could discuss about how Trump is a disaster. He is in a lot of ways.

Things we shouldn't focus on include: Russian meddling. That's fake. Him being this uniquely bad 'presence' that is somehow making the country worse off. How?

Again, he's done nothing out of the ordinary. He's a schmuck, for sure. They all are. The unique outrage and idiocy being presented by those that dislike him is silly for a variety of reasons.

Oh, and I will continue to treat everyone in this thread with civility as that is how it's outlined in the rules of this board. It's a shame that you, as a mod, are unable to do the same. I won't hold it against, though.

Oh, and my ideas might not be flawless, but I don't need to result to insults when I can't refute someone.

One other thing. I'm not trying to 'own' or 'show' anyone anything. I'm trying to look at this entire situation (Trump) with a critical eye. Do I like him? Not really. Is he an idiot? God yes. Is he any worse than any of the other corporate bootlicking politicians who gain something by dividing the country? No; He's fits right in.

[Voltron]

I did refute your statement.

Also, I was complimenting you. I wish you wouldn't misconstrue my words. Perhaps you should stop resorting to such foul language?

Please stop wasting bandwidth.

[BartAllen]

I did refute your statement.

Please stop wasting bandwidth.

Okay, if you say so... :roll:

You will refute me when you can point to a single instance where Trump has done something that has, (a) negatively impacted the country in some unique and/or horribly irreversible way, or (b) prove that you're not ideologically slanted against a man that you deem as something silly because it's repeated over and over by the same corporate shills on the TV.

6 companies own every media outlet in the US. That includes fox news. Trump wasn't molded by them. He's not in their sandbox. That's why they hate him. Do you really think they give a care about what's going on with us? No. Not even remotely. It's about power and influence. They can't get him like the got Obozo or the Dubbya. That's why they hate him and argue against everything he does. When Obama promised to remove troops from Afghanistan, they lauded him as the best thing ever. Now that Trump is doing the same, they are saying it's shortsighted and that he doesn't understand the 'complex' issues in meddling in a foreign government. This isn't even about Hillary at this point. This is just about hating on Trump because it gets them ratings and makes corporations money.

Mind you, they did the same exact thing with Bernie. Read Donna Braziles' book. It's all there.

Oh, and I still haven't resulted to insults. :)

Uh huh. Complimenting me. It's okay. I get it. ;)

Now, if you want to talk about Trump's idiotic tariffs or other equally stupid trade deals than I am absolutely willing to listen. The rest? No. That's silly stuff. That's not real. That's just the unhinged fantasies of a bunch of crybabies that are mad they didn't get to have their way back in 2016.

[Voltron]

And were I to give them to you, you would change your mind? You wouldn't wave them away with "What about Obama, he did such-n-such"?

Why waste my time?

Also, you did insult me. You used foul language, took a bellicose demeanor, assumed my political affiliation, unjustly criticized my status as a moderator, not to mention continuing to waste storage space after I asked you politely to stop. . .

And here I am, cast as some villain for admiring velcro.

So I ask you politely one last time: please stop insulting me and please stop wasting bandwidth.

[BartAllen]

And were I to give them to you, you would change your mind? You wouldn't wave them away with "What about Obama, he did such-n-such"?

Why waste my time?

Also, you did insult me. You used foul language, took a bellicose demeanor, assumed my political affiliation, unjustly criticized my status as a moderator, not to mention continuing to waste storage space after I asked you politely to stop. . .

And here I am, cast as some villain for admiring velcro.

So I ask you politely one last time: please stop insulting me and please stop wasting bandwidth.

lmao. We both know what you did. You actually made fun of the intellectly disabled. I'm sure you'll delete my posts next and claim I did something horrible to you. I've also stopped using foul language as per your one instruction.

I'm not casting you as anything. I'm just pointing out what you did. I'm sure your next step will be to ban me from the board for pointing out the truth.

Is there something wrong with talking about presidents and their actions as a measuring stick to the current president? That's done all the time.

Oh, and Bandwidth is just the amount of time it takes a piece of information to be transmitted from one point to another. My posts aren't harming anything. Unless you're trying to make some implication using that second, less known, definition. ;)

I am always willing to listen to unbiased media sources that aren't dealing in scare tactics. That can no longer be said for most of the major news outlets. Unfortunately.

It's odd that you're asking me to stop talking about the topic at hand. We're talking about the Shutdown. How is that wasteful at all. Is it because I hold opinions that you don't? I'm more than willing to take this to PM.

[Vegita-San]

regarding russia.

while i think it's a bit overblown, and being used by the democrats to try and slander him anyway theycan (the republicans do the same thing)......I think we'd be fools to think trump DOESN'T have some kind of russian connections. the democrats probably do too.

whether or not they influenced the election somehow is the question, and after 3 years, no real proof yet. yet, the dems infleunced their own side of the election and got away with it.

so, yeah, trump fits right in with all the other scumbags in washington on all sides.

[BartAllen]

regarding russia.

while i think it's a bit overblown, and being used by the democrats to try and slander him anyway theycan (the republicans do the same thing)......I think we'd be fools to think trump DOESN'T have some kind of russian connections. the democrats probably do too.

whether or not they influenced the election somehow is the question, and after 3 years, no real proof yet. yet, the dems infleunced their own side of the election and got away with it.

so, yeah, trump fits right in with all the other scumbags in washington on all sides.

That's fair. There probably is a connection. He is a businessman with businesses all over the world. Does that mean Russia colluded with him to overthrow the election? No. And how? Did Boris run into the polling places and switch the votes? Of course not.

My only thought about this entire situation is we need to go after the things he's actually doing. Not the silly stuff that has no verifiable evidence.

That said, if the Mueller probe does show something illegal has happened, then I hope Trump is impeached, thrown out of office and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I think any rational person would agree with that.

I'm not a fan of Trump... there is enough stink around him that there is probably something there. I don't think it's Russian collusion.

[Voltron]

Please stop antagonizing me. I'd rather not have to lock the thread.

Edit: It seems I've struck a nerve. Thread locked until the issue is resolved.

Edit 2: Reopened.

My apologies for that unpleasantness.

[BartAllen]

You open up the thread again after you've deleted all your own incriminating posts making fun of people that don't share your particular bias? Wow, can someone say fascism? lmao.

[Voltron]

*sigh* I didn't delete anything, but if you insist on dragging this out. . .

LOCKED.