Any fan of Green Lantern here? (comics)

[Avenger]

I just finished the 3 omnibus from Geoff johns run on Green Lantern, and I absolutely loved it!

Its covers everything from "Green Lantern Rebirth" (Comeback of Hal Jordan) to "Sinestro Corps War" to "Blackest Night" to "The End" of the News 52. After that Geoff Johns leave the title.

My next goal is to finish the run of the News 52, read Green Lantern Corps and then attack the Rebirth Era.

Do you have specific favorite storyline from GL comic book?

[Krutch]

Oh, man... Look, I hear ya. I loved it too in a big bad way when I was reading month-to-month.

But you're about to get an absolute spanking from Andrew.

[MikeandRaph87]

I just finished the 3 omnibus from Geoff johns run on Green Lantern, and I absolutely loved it!

Its covers everything from "Green Lantern Rebirth" (Comeback of Hal Jordan) to "Sinestro Corps War" to "Blackest Night" to "The End" of the News 52. After that Geoff Johns leave the title.

My next goal is to finish the run of the News 52, read Green Lantern Corps and then attack the Rebirth Era.

Do you have specific favorite storyline from GL comic book?

I picked up Green Lantern:Rebirth#1 back in the Fall of 2004 and I have read it ever since. I am reading the third succeeding volume from the mini-series, Hal Jordan and The Green Lantern Corps to this day. Its had a couple of low points, but its been the most consistently interesting book that DC has put out for a longtime. Sinestro Corps War is still the best storyline to come out of it.

[Avenger]

I picked up Green Lantern:Rebirth#1 back in the Fall of 2004 and I have read it ever since. I am reading the third succeeding volume from the mini-series, Hal Jordan and The Green Lantern Corps to this day. Its had a couple of low points, but its been the most consistently interesting book that DC has put out for a longtime. Sinestro Corps War is still the best storyline to come out of it.

Well, my favorite moments are when Hal interacts with the Corps, so I guess a comic titled "Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps" should please me.:D

The only issue I have is the format. I'm tired of TPB format with 5 or 6 issues; I prefer Deluxe Edition or bigger. So either way I wait for I-don't-know-how many years to have the format I want, or I buy it in numeric version on Play Store (Android).

[WebLurker]

I've become a fan of the current "Green Lanterns" series (with Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz), but that's the extent of my interest in this space cop franchise.

[Andrew NDB]

I just finished the 3 omnibus from Geoff johns run on Green Lantern, and I absolutely loved it!

Its covers everything from "Green Lantern Rebirth" (Comeback of Hal Jordan) to "Sinestro Corps War" to "Blackest Night" to "The End" of the News 52. After that Geoff Johns leave the title.

My next goal is to finish the run of the News 52, read Green Lantern Corps and then attack the Rebirth Era.

Do you have specific favorite storyline from GL comic book?

So basically you haven't read any good GL comics. That's a pity. But you're interested in reading more GL stuff, so that's good... start with anything before Geoff John's. Like almost anything.

Stop by my website here (also has a message board just like this one: http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com

[Krutch]

So basically you haven't read any good GL comics. That's a pity. But you're interested in reading more GL stuff, so that's good... start with anything before Geoff John's. Like almost anything.

Stop by my website here (also has a message board just like this one: http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.comY'know, I just realized I've never actually read your reasonings behind hating Geoff Johns so much. What is it about his work you dislike so much? From what I've read, I found his strength lies in developing lesser known villains into something actually interesting.

Then again, I've avoided the shitshow that was the War of Light, so, apparently I got out before it got real ugly. But I liked his Green Lantern run from Rebith through the Sinestro Wars and thought the Booster Gold series dropped in quality as soon as he left.

[MikeandRaph87]

I found it odd how the Guardians of the Universe were depicted as enabling villains and wondered why the space aspect became the only aspect. There is also villains like Goldface, Shark, Sonar (finally got an arc under Robert Venditti years later), and Evil Star that have completely disappeared. So yes there are problems with Johns run, but I enjoyed how he reworked the mythos as a whole. Its unfortunate how the numbering had to restart two times,but that is comics for you.

What do you all think of the Grant Morrison announcement? I do not think he has written Hal aside form a bit part on Final Crisis.

[Andrew NDB]

Y'know, I just realized I've never actually read your reasonings behind hating Geoff Johns so much. What is it about his work you dislike so much? From what I've read, I found his strength lies in developing lesser known villains into something actually interesting.

He's the poster child for everything that's wrong with "hot," fratboy writers today. Lots of splash pages, double-splash pages in issues you can read in 2 minutes, giant "everything you've known is WRONG!" events that cliffhang into even gianter giant events, all the while hiding behind A-list artists so their stuff always sells. You will never see Geoff "slum" it with a B or C-list artist. He's a hack of the worst kind.

He was always a decent ideas guy, at least, but then somewhere around GL Mega Event #2 or #3 he ran out of ideas, so he didn't even have that.

And 95% of his big events aren't even about telling a good story or getting into any of the characters' heads, but either A) Going down a list of things he wants to retcon from the character(s)'s history, or B) Retconning something of his own. He also has a big tendency to introduce supporting characters and subplots and then completely forgetting about them, ignoring them.

To be fair, "Rebirth" itself wasn't bad. And maybe the first... 15 or so issues of his initial Vol. 4 of Green Lantern, before the whole franchise became Sinestro Corps War #1-500.

[Krutch]

He's the poster child for everything that's wrong with "hot," fratboy writers today. Lots of splash pages, double-splash pages in issues you can read in 2 minutes, giant "everything you've known is WRONG!" events that cliffhang into even gianter giant events, all the while hiding behind A-list artists so their stuff always sells. You will never see Geoff "slum" it with a B or C-list artist. He's a hack of the worst kind.

He was always a decent ideas guy, at least, but then somewhere around GL Mega Event #2 or #3 he ran out of ideas, so he didn't even have that.

And 95% of his big events aren't even about telling a good story or getting into any of the characters' heads, but either A) Going down a list of things he wants to retcon from the character(s)'s history, or B) Retconning something of his own. He also has a big tendency to introduce supporting characters and subplots and then completely forgetting about them, ignoring them.

To be fair, "Rebirth" itself wasn't bad. And maybe the first... 15 or so issues of his initial Vol. 4 of Green Lantern, before the whole franchise became Sinestro Corps War #1-500.That's fair enough. Truthfully, I can't think of a single "big event" in comics I ever actually liked (maybe Civil War and to a much lesser extent, Crisis on Infinite Earths) so I tend to bail out once they start revving up. Which is why I bailed out once I saw that Sinestro Corps War was only the beginning.

I'm not sure the reasoning behind pitchforking someone for only working with high grade artists, though. You're a filmmaker - wouldn't you want your stuff to look as best as it possible can be, especially if you already have good working relationships with the people who can make it happen? I'm not even sure DC would allow Johns teaming with a lesser, unproven artist for their big titles which he's always attached to. But my knowledge of how the comic industry works isn't that sharp, admittedly.

[TurtleWA]

I haven’t read any GL. I think the first things I will read are the below two books.

I liked the three Superman Earth One books and have heard some good things about the GL one. And I think the 75 year edition will give me a good foundation.

1. Green Lantern Earth One HC Vol 01

2. Green Lantern A Celebration Of 75 Years HC

I’m hoping to read these sometime in the next half year.

[Avenger]

So basically you haven't read any good GL comics. That's a pity. But you're interested in reading more GL stuff, so that's good... start with anything before Geoff John's. Like almost anything.

Stop by my website here (also has a message board just like this one: http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com

What I bought since then: (outside of recent eras)

Green Lantern/Green Arrow run
Green Lantern: Earth One

I intend to buy Kyle Rainer's first run eventually.

I already knew about your message board. (still I didn't know it was your's)

So you don't like Geoff Johns. What do you think about Peter Tomasi's job on GLC? I read a few and I liked it, but the volumes are hard to find.

[Andrew NDB]

What I bought since then: (outside of recent eras)

Green Lantern/Green Arrow run

From the 70s? That's not bad at all.

Green Lantern: Earth One

Elseworlds.

I intend to buy Kyle Rainer's first run eventually.

Oh, you absolutely should. Since it's pre-Johns, DC has made it hard to find now, though.

So you don't like Geoff Johns. What do you think about Peter Tomasi's job on GLC? I read a few and I liked it, but the volumes are hard to find.

I know Peter Tomasi and he's a great guy. It's also no coincidence that when Peter stopped being an editor -- namely, Johns' editor -- that Johns' stuff went from the "Rebirth" and early Vol. 4 stuff into "nonsense mega-event city" stuff.

His GLC stuff was... the best it could be. It was so many people crammed into a single book, none of them got a chance to shine. Still, he found time for the Soranik Natu-Kyle stuff and the realization of the prophecy from Alan Moore's old "Tygers" story from "Tales of the GLC," which was cool. Even the reopening of Guy's "Warriors."

[MikeandRaph87]

Its ironic, I was lamenting in how the earth-based villains in Hal's rogues gallery have had no use for 15 years. The very next day Goldface was killed off.

[Ninjinister]

I'm gonna admit and it's counter to what Lantern fans apparently like, but I am a sucker for he damn rainbow corps.

Introduce a new Lantern color/type? Make a pre-existing character a Lantern, even for one panel? I'm there.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm gonna admit and it's counter to what Lantern fans apparently like, but I am a sucker for he damn rainbow corps.

Introduce a new Lantern color/type? Make a pre-existing character a Lantern, even for one panel? I'm there.

No wonder you wiped me out of the TMNT Wikis.

[Avenger]

He's the poster child for everything that's wrong with "hot," fratboy writers today. Lots of splash pages, double-splash pages in issues you can read in 2 minutes, giant "everything you've known is WRONG!" events that cliffhang into even gianter giant events, all the while hiding behind A-list artists so their stuff always sells. You will never see Geoff "slum" it with a B or C-list artist. He's a hack of the worst kind.

He was always a decent ideas guy, at least, but then somewhere around GL Mega Event #2 or #3 he ran out of ideas, so he didn't even have that.

And 95% of his big events aren't even about telling a good story or getting into any of the characters' heads, but either A) Going down a list of things he wants to retcon from the character(s)'s history, or B) Retconning something of his own. He also has a big tendency to introduce supporting characters and subplots and then completely forgetting about them, ignoring them.

To be fair, "Rebirth" itself wasn't bad. And maybe the first... 15 or so issues of his initial Vol. 4 of Green Lantern, before the whole franchise became Sinestro Corps War #1-500.

Yeah, I agree with you.


Blackest Night was supposed to be a big deal because all the differents colored lanterns were working together to stop Black Hand & Nekron.

The thing is, immediately after that, they did it again to stop Krona.

Another annoying stuff in the News 52: the multiple titles events like "The third army" or "Wrath of the first lantern", where you need 2 or 3 issues of each title to complete the story.

Ok, the event is also sold in a volume of it's own, but when you only read the main GL title, it's frustrating to get the beginning, the end, and missing a big part in the middle.

[MikeandRaph87]

Yeah, I agree with you.


Blackest Night was supposed to be a big deal because all the differents colored lanterns were working together to stop Black Hand & Nekron.

The thing is, immediately after that, they did it again to stop Krona.

Another annoying stuff in the News 52: the multiple titles events like "The third army" or "Wrath of the first lantern", where you need 2 or 3 issues of each title to complete the story.

Ok, the event is also sold in a volume of it's own, but when you only read the main GL title, it's frustrating to get the beginning, the end, and missing a big part in the middle.

The corrupt Guardians created most of their own rogues gallery and the ones Earth bound are ignored. There was not necessarily the rainbow corps alliance going for two consecutive stories that bothered me it was Hal Jordan and Sinestro having a marriage of convenience lasting for three calendar years that began with Blackest Night and continued on until Sinestro lost his green ring after he and Hal beat Black Hand in the afterlife.

What do you all think Grant Morrison will do?

[Andrew NDB]

What do you all think Grant Morrison will do?

All I know: amazing, amazing things. It's the best possible thing imaginable for GL.

[Ninjinister]

No wonder you wiped me out of the TMNT Wikis.

Uh...
What?

[MikeandRaph87]

Do we have an issue for the start of Grant Morrison's involvement yet?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I've got a question for the various GL fans... chief among them on here, no doubt is Andrew:

What's the breakdown on all the main Green Lanterns? What's each one's schtick or point of interest? I know all the names, but none of what makes them different from each other and why and how they took up the ring.

Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner, Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz... I think Alan Scott, way in the beginning before Hal? Did I miss any of them?

[Avenger]

I've got a question for the various GL fans... chief among them on here, no doubt is Andrew:

What's the breakdown on all the main Green Lanterns? What's each one's schtick or point of interest? I know all the names, but none of what makes them different from each other and why and how they took up the ring.

Hal Jordan, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Kyle Rayner, Simon Baz and Jessica Cruz... I think Alan Scott, way in the beginning before Hal? Did I miss any of them?

Hal Jordan: Pilot driver. Tend to go head first. Has trouble with autority
Guy Gardner: Ex-cop. Hot temper but strong will. Sometimes he reminds me of Logan in Marvel
John Stewart: Ex-military & architect. Constructs seems more efficient/solid due to his architect background.
Kyle Raynor: Artist. More imaginative constructs.
Simon Baz: Lebanese-American. Was (unfairly) accused of terrorism when he first became a lantern. Didn't read much about him.
Jessica Cruz: Didn't reach much about her.
Allan Scott: He was the "first" green lantern, but he's not connected with the GLC. His powers are coming from magic (and not big green battery on OA)

So if you like more colorful/hot temper, go with Hal & Guy.
If you like more calm/thinking before acting, go with John & Kyle.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Hal Jordan: Pilot driver. Tend to go head first. Has trouble with autority
Guy Gardner: Ex-cop. Hot temper but strong will. Sometimes he reminds me of Logan in Marvel
John Stewart: Ex-military & architect. Constructs seems more efficient/solid due to his architect background.
Kyle Raynor: Artist. More imaginative constructs.
Simon Baz: Lebanese-American. Was (unfairly) accused of terrorism when he first became a lantern. Didn't read much about him.
Jessica Cruz: Didn't reach much about her.
Allan Scott: He was the "first" green lantern, but he's not connected with the GLC. His powers are coming from magic (and not big green battery on OA)

So if you like more colorful/hot temper, go with Hal & Guy.
If you like more calm/thinking before acting, go with John & Kyle.

Thanks dude! So, who do you prefer?

[Andrew NDB]

Hal Jordan: Most of what you've read about him is a lie. He's not a lady's man... for decades he basically went from one monogamous relationship to another, and he pined, whined and cried over all of them -- I know, I own them all. Also a pedo, who banged a twelve year-old girl who used a GL ring to make her body (not her mind) advance into adulthood. Geoff says Hal just makes boxing gloves and simple constructs because he just "does what needs to be done" and that's basically true. When Geoff came on he basically went down a long list of things he didn't like in Hal's past and one by one, retconned things to make him basically Maverick in Top Gun, which he never was, and with a penchant for acting "cool" and punching people a lot. He doesn't really have much character, when it comes down to it, and is sort of a blank slate. He was at his most interesting when he was a villain, a Dr. Doom-like character as Parallax, before Geoff retconned it to be a space fear parasite and Hal to be a great, upstanding (and boring) guy again.

Guy Gardner: Basically loveable brute with a heart of gold. He always charges in, does stupid things but he always endears himself. He's the first GL to wear a yellow ring (Sinestro's after he died, and long, long before Geoff made "the Sinestro Corps") and was wearing a Red one for a few years, basically leading the Red Lantern Corps. Now I have no idea what they're doing with him. They seem to like to completely change his powers every few years. Being an "ex cop" is a new thing, when Geoff junked his whole backstory of being a high school coach that no one was even complaining about. I used to dislike him but he grew on me over the years.

John Stewart: Former architect and civil rights activist. His Marine military stuff was grafted on only a few years ago by Geoff "The Hackman" Johns because of what the old cartoon did with him, but it seems to be the only thing morons want to talk about nowadays. There's a ton more to him than that. He's the "straight man" to all the other GLs. He also became a Guardian once when he ate his own ring during "Mosaic." Every writer seems to write him completely differently and no one has a good handle on his character. Mostly writers just like to write him crying about how Xanshi got destroyed on his watch during "The Cosmic Odyssey."

Kyle Rayner: Funny, creative, and all around most human GL. He's an everyman who likes to draw and date a lot of women. For 11 years (in our time) he was the ONLY Green Lantern and carried the torch solo. He also resurrected Hal Jordan, resurrected all of the Guardians, and restored the Central Power Battery, and restored Oa after Hal killed himself, made the Guardians kill themselves, and destroyed Oa. Best GL in my book by far. Grant Morrison did a lot with him in JLA in the late 90s, so I can't wait to see what Morrison is about to do in GL when he takes over shortly. He likes to smack around bad guys with anime stuff and giant mechs. He thrives on Earth but the past ten years, writers keep throwing him in big ensemble casts in deep space... which is weird. Most recently he stole Hal's girlfriend, Carol Ferris, which makes sense because Hal is a chump.

Alan Scott: He's been around since WWII. Starheart (magic-based) powers. Was a mentor to Kyle and like the dad he never had. Family man with a wife, a son (Obsidian) and a daughter (Jade), he even gave Kyle his blessing to date Jade. Pretty cool guy. Then "Flashpoint" happened and Alan's back on Earth-2, now gay, with no children or wife (obviously). I think the idea is to reintroduce the JSA and the proper Alan Scott within the 8 year-long event with the Watchmen or whatever.

Simon Baz: Geoff Johns SJW construct #1.

Jessica Cruz: Geoff Johns SJW construct #2.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Hal Jordan: Most of what you've read about him is a lie. He's not a lady's man... for decades he basically went from one monogamous relationship to another, and he pined, whined and cried over all of them -- I know, I own them all. Also a pedo, who banged a twelve year-old girl who used a GL ring to make her body (not her mind) advance into adulthood. Geoff says Hal just makes boxing gloves and simple constructs because he just "does what needs to be done" and that's basically true. When Geoff came on he basically went down a long list of things he didn't like in Hal's past and one by one, retconned things to make him basically Maverick in Top Gun, which he never was, and with a penchant for acting "cool" and punching people a lot. He doesn't really have much character, when it comes down to it, and is sort of a blank slate. He was at his most interesting when he was a villain, a Dr. Doom-like character as Parallax, before Geoff retconned it to be a space fear parasite and Hal to be a great, upstanding (and boring) guy again.

Guy Gardner: Basically loveable brute with a heart of gold. He always charges in, does stupid things but he always endears himself. He's the first GL to wear a yellow ring (Sinestro's after he died, and long, long before Geoff made "the Sinestro Corps") and was wearing a Red one for a few years, basically leading the Red Lantern Corps. Now I have no idea what they're doing with him. They seem to like to completely change his powers every few years. Being an "ex cop" is a new thing, when Geoff junked his whole backstory of being a high school coach that no one was even complaining about. I used to dislike him but he grew on me over the years.

John Stewart: Former architect and civil rights activist. His Marine military stuff was grafted on only a few years about by Geoff "The Hackman" Johns because of what the old cartoon did with him, but it seems to be the only thing morons want to talk about nowadays. There's a ton more to him than that. He's the "straight man" to all the other GLs. He also became a Guardian once when he ate his own ring during "Mosaic." Every writer seems to write him completely differently and no one has a good handle on his character. Mostly writers just like to write him crying about how Xanshi got destroyed on his watch during "The Cosmic Odyssey."

Kyle Rayner: Funny, creative, and all around most human GL. He's an everyman who likes to draw and date a lot of women. For 11 years (in our time) he was the ONLY Green Lantern and carried the torch solo. He also resurrected Hal Jordan, resurrected all of the Guardians, and restored the Central Power Battery, and restored Oa after Hal killed himself, made the Guardians kill themselves, and destroyed Oa. Best GL in my book by far. Grant Morrison did a lot with him in JLA in the late 90s, so I can't wait to see what Morrison is about to do in GL when he takes over shortly. He likes to smack around bad guys with anime stuff and giant mechs.

Alan Scott: He's been around since WWII. Starheart (magic-based) powers. Was a mentor to Kyle and like the dad he never had. Family man with a wife, a son (Obsidian) and a daughter (Jade), he even gave Kyle his blessing to date Jade. Pretty cool guy. Then "Flashpoint" happened and Alan's back on Earth-2, now gay, with no children or wife (obviously). I think the idea is to reintroduce the JSA and the proper Alan Scott within the 8 year-long event with the Watchmen or whatever.

Simon Baz: Geoff Johns SJW construct #1.

Jessica Cruz: Geoff Johns SJW construct #2.

How long was Hal Jordan Parallax? Which Green Lanterns was he in conflict with at the time?

[Andrew NDB]

How long was Hal Jordan Parallax? Which Green Lanterns was he in conflict with at the time?

Just a couple of years, really. In 1994 when Cyborg Superman and Mongul nuked Coast City he tried to use his ring to resurrect everybody there and rebuild it... but the Guardians stopped him and ordered him to report to Oa for punishment. So he went to Oa to get the power he needed, fought his way through many GLs, and in their last ditch effort to stop him, the Guardians committed mass suicide except for Ganthet. So he entered the Central Power Battery, absorbing all of its power and taking the name "Parallax"... which simultaneously deactivated the rings of all other 3,599 Green Lanterns. He remained Parallax until 1996's "The Final Night," when he showed up to save the world from the Sun-Eater, sacrificing his life even as a villain.

So to answer your question... he was in conflict with no Green Lanterns, because there were no Green Lanterns at that time. Just Kyle, whom Ganthet found in a panic and gave a ring (powered separately from the CPB) to in an alley. There was a lot of talk about GLs dying in space when Hal blew up the Central Power Battery but there was never any actual evidence of that... pretty much all of them were accounted for and alive when the Central Power Battery and GL Corps was restored in "Green Lantern Corps: Recharge" in 2005.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Just a couple of years, really. In 1994 when Cyborg Superman and Mongul nuked Coast City he tried to use his ring to resurrect everybody there and rebuild it... but the Guardians stopped him and ordered him to report to Oa for punishment. So he went to Oa to get the power he needed, fought his way through many GLs, and in their last ditch effort to stop him, the Guardians committed mass suicide except for Ganthet. So he entered the Central Power Battery, absorbing all of its power and taking the name "Parallax"... which simultaneously deactivated the rings of all other 3,599 Green Lanterns. He remained Parallax until 1996's "The Final Night," when he showed up to save the world from the Sun-Eater, sacrificing his life even as a villain.

So to answer your question... he was in conflict with no Green Lanterns, because there were no Green Lanterns at that time. Just Kyle, whom Ganthet found in a panic and gave a ring (powered separately from the CPB) to in an alley. There was a lot of talk about GLs dying in space when Hal blew up the Central Power Battery but there was never any actual evidence of that... pretty much all of them were accounted for and alive when the Central Power Battery and GL Corps was restored in "Green Lantern Corps: Recharge" in 2005.

That's pretty awesome... no chance of that in a movie, though, is there?

[Andrew NDB]

That's pretty awesome... no chance of that in a movie, though, is there?

It would take a whole lot of setup. Like, one Green Lantern movie to establish everything, then there'd need to be a Superman movie where the Coast City stuff happens, then another Green Lantern movie where Hal deals with that aftermath of that, becomes Parallax, etc.. Would never happen with the current minds.

Though Hal becoming Parallax almost did. The first drafts of the 2011 movie all had Hal becoming superpowered by entering the Central Power Battery at the end, and then noticing the temples of his hair turned white at the end (white temples was retroactively a sign of possession by Parallax in the comics). You can guess who nixed that.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

It would take a whole lot of setup. Like, one Green Lantern movie to establish everything, then there'd need to be a Superman movie where the Coast City stuff happens, then another Green Lantern movie where Hal deals with that aftermath of that, becomes Parallax, etc.. Would never happen with the current minds.

Though Hal becoming Parallax almost did. The first drafts of the 2011 movie all had Hal becoming superpowered by entering the Central Power Battery at the end, and then noticing the temples of his hair turned white at the end (white temples was retroactively a sign of possession by Parallax). You can guess who nixed that.

Aw man, too bad. Geoff Johns strikes again, I assume?

So, Andrew... who do you fault for the Green Lantern movie's problems? When I saw it, it wasn't terrible... not great, but definitely on par with some of the average MCU movies.

[Andrew NDB]

So, Andrew... who do you fault for the Green Lantern movie's problems? When I saw it, it wasn't terrible... not great, but definitely on par with some of the average MCU movies.

First of all, I didn't hugely dislike the movie. I mostly take umbrage as a Kyle fan that they literally gave Hal Kyle's whole personality while simultaneously doing both Krona AND Parallax ridiculously wrong.

Here is Krona:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/KronaJLAZ2.png

And here is Parallax:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Parallax_rebirth.jpg

But they give us a midget (which Geoff made sure and retcon to emulate in the comics at the same time) and a space cloud. And then they merged them together in the first five minutes, lol

OK, but beyond that, not a bad movie. Sinestro was perfect. Kilowog was perfect. Oa was great. Hector Hammond was pretty solid. GL costumes were fine by me. The way the powers looked seemed sound.

So yeah. Not a great movie but hardly deserving anywhere near the level of hate it got. At some point it just became trendy to hate on it, like, "I hope this movie isn't as bad as the Green Lantern movie! LOL!!!" A second film could have adequately course corrected things and even dovetailed nicely with "Man of Steel."

I generally don't assign Geoff much fault in this, though the finger can definitely be pointed at him as he had full veto power and was on set everyday. Mostly it seemed like a movie with an engine of people that didn't understand Green Lantern, and Geoff on the outside mostly trying to do what little he could at that point to sort of guide the ship correctly... while shoveling his own sh**.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

So who was the main guy or guys behind the Green Lantern comics before Geoff Johns became involved?

[Avenger]

Just a couple of years, really. In 1994 when Cyborg Superman and Mongul nuked Coast City he tried to use his ring to resurrect everybody there and rebuild it... but the Guardians stopped him and ordered him to report to Oa for punishment. So he went to Oa to get the power he needed, fought his way through many GLs, and in their last ditch effort to stop him, the Guardians committed mass suicide except for Ganthet. So he entered the Central Power Battery, absorbing all of its power and taking the name "Parallax"... which simultaneously deactivated the rings of all other 3,599 Green Lanterns. He remained Parallax until 1996's "The Final Night," when he showed up to save the world from the Sun-Eater, sacrificing his life even as a villain.

So to answer your question... he was in conflict with no Green Lanterns, because there were no Green Lanterns at that time. Just Kyle, whom Ganthet found in a panic and gave a ring (powered separately from the CPB) to in an alley. There was a lot of talk about GLs dying in space when Hal blew up the Central Power Battery but there was never any actual evidence of that... pretty much all of them were accounted for and alive when the Central Power Battery and GL Corps was restored in "Green Lantern Corps: Recharge" in 2005.

It makes me think... I just read the Third Army event yesterday, and there is one part, when Kyle is working to master all 7 colors, where we saw the first meeting between Kyle and Ganthet, and the first visit of Kyle on Oa (with the meeting of Sayd). Funny thing, it happened "2 years ago"...

So basically everything that happened between Hal Jordan/Parallax and the Third Army event (All Kyle's adventures as GL, GL rebirth, Sinestro Corp War, Blackest Night, the Krona thing) happened in a period of 2 years.

I think Tony Bedard just screw up on that one. (the author of New Gardians title)

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

It makes me think... I just read the Third Army event yesterday, and there is one part, when Kyle is working to master all 7 colors, where we saw the first meeting between Kyle and Ganthet, and the first visit of Kyle on Oa (with the meeting of Sayd). Funny thing, it happened "2 years ago"...

So basically everything that happened between Hal Jordan/Parallax and the Third Army event (All Kyle's adventures as GL, GL rebirth, Sinestro Corp War, Blackest Night, the Krona thing) happened in a period of 2 years.

I think Tony Bedard just screw up on that one. (the author of New Gardians title)

The New 52 tried to retroactively keep most of the Batman and Green Lantern continuities, while also compressing them into an impossible "five years since the origins" timeline.

Just ignore the "X years ago" bit. :trazz:

[Andrew NDB]

So who was the main guy or guys behind the Green Lantern comics before Geoff Johns became involved?

Judd Winick had a big run on Green Lantern before Geoff seeped in. Ben Raab for a little bit. Ron Marz before that.

In the heyday of Green Lantern, it was guys like Gil Kane, Dennis O'Neil, Len Wein, John Byrne, Steve Englehart, Paul Kupperberg, Gerard Jones.

But it wasn't like it is now. There is never like, one writer who rules over GL. You'd get a writer with a respectable 2, 3 year-run overseen by an editor, and that's that. Now it's like... Geoff Johns overseeing everything, writers afraid to even speak his name in any way but overly complimentarily.

[Avenger]

First of all, I didn't hugely dislike the movie. I mostly take umbrage as a Kyle fan that they literally gave Hal Kyle's whole personality while simultaneously doing both Krona AND Parallax ridiculously wrong.

Here is Krona:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/KronaJLAZ2.png

And here is Parallax:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/Parallax_rebirth.jpg

But they give us a midget (which Geoff made sure and retcon to emulate in the comics at the same time) and a space cloud. And then they merged them together in the first five minutes, lol

OK, but beyond that, not a bad movie. Sinestro was perfect. Kilowog was perfect. Oa was great. Hector Hammond was pretty solid. GL costumes were fine by me. The way the powers looked seemed sound.

So yeah. Not a great movie but hardly deserving anywhere near the level of hate it got. At some point it just became trendy to hate on it, like, "I hope this movie isn't as bad as the Green Lantern movie! LOL!!!" A second film could have adequately course corrected things and even dovetailed nicely with "Man of Steel."

I generally don't assign Geoff much fault in this, though the finger can definitely be pointed at him as he had full veto power and was on set everyday. Mostly it seemed like a movie with an engine of people that didn't understand Green Lantern, and Geoff on the outside mostly trying to do what little he could at that point to sort of guide the ship correctly... while shoveling his own sh**.

He seems to be the new writer for the next GLC movie. It should be about an experienced Hal Jordan and a rookie John Stewart.

I would like the movie to be about the Green Lantern CORP. It would be fun to let a good place to Salaak, Kilowog, Gardner, Rayner, Sinestro. Hal Jordan in a good character but not THAT interesting. I never got why he's always the center of everything in GL. I do not hate him, but I like to see GL as a team title, and not just "Hal Jordan and his sidekicks".

[MikeandRaph87]

What I always wanted to know is why did editorial think it was a good idea for Hal Jordan to lose the city he protects and thus turn into a mass murdering psycho trying to make emerald constructs of everything and everyone in the city? It does not seem like something Hal would do parallax or not. This cannot be a simple sales gimmick.

Also, I recently uncovered that Hal Jordan protected Evergreen City for a couple of years in the late 60s'. Did Hal just get a new job in a new city and Green Lantern conveniently relocated with Hal? This however, I can see being a sales gimmick.

[TurtleTitan97]

What I always wanted to know is why did editorial think it was a good idea for Hal Jordan to lose the city he protects and thus turn into a mass murdering psycho trying to make emerald constructs of everything and everyone in the city? It does not seem like something Hal would do parallax or not. This cannot be a simple sales gimmick.


Well, this is the 90's we're talking about. Almost everything back then had to be X-TREME!!!

[Andrew NDB]

What I always wanted to know is why did editorial think it was a good idea for Hal Jordan to lose the city he protects and thus turn into a mass murdering psycho trying to make emerald constructs of everything and everyone in the city? It does not seem like something Hal would do parallax or not. This cannot be a simple sales gimmick.

Nobody cared about Green Lantern before that story. It was about to be cancelled again when they did that story.

Also, I recently uncovered that Hal Jordan protected Evergreen City for a couple of years in the late 60s'. Did Hal just get a new job in a new city and Green Lantern conveniently relocated with Hal? This however, I can see being a sales gimmick.

Hal Jordan got a lot of horrible jobs. Truck driver, salesman, etc.. There really weren't many "sales gimmicks" in the 60s, that was just the kind of stories there were.

[MikeandRaph87]

Nobody cared about Green Lantern before that story. It was about to be cancelled again when they did that story.

Its hard to believe. I always saw Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Flash as the secondary trinity. Granted Aquaman's limitations keep him from having a solid ongoing title, Hal Jordan and Barry Allen did. At least, I never thought Hal would be hurting in sales so much as unpopular as a character just stale directions. It's just a Superman villain blows up Green Lantern's home and he becomes a mass murderer killing Green Lanterns and Guardians? Its just too much. Not much respect for a JLA founder who had been a big part of the comic line for 35 years. So 90s extreme, no respect for characters, temporary sales peak is the answer to the Emerald Twilight debacle? Its all fixed now, its just the 1994 event seems drastic. Perhaps as soon as this happened people wanted Hal Jordan back and lead to the revival a decade later?

Hal Jordan got a lot of horrible jobs. Truck driver, salesman, etc.. There really weren't many "sales gimmicks" in the 60s, that was just the kind of stories there were.

Yes, a lot of fans think he was always a test pilot for Ferris Air, but from around 1968 to 1980 that was not the case. The whole GA/GL do America was made possible due to Hal's truck driver occupation. I can see it as a way to freshen up the character, but like the general public or casual fans know Hal is tied to Ferris air. A lot of obscure stuff like Itty the alien starfish friend of Hal. I have read some of the comics from 1979-1981 and its a pretty solid run, earth-based enemies like Sonar, Evil Star, and Shark all plague Hal while at Ferris and rekindling a relationship with Carol after a brief romance with a gypsy.

[Avenger]

Its hard to believe. I always saw Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Flash as the secondary trinity. Granted Aquaman's limitations keep him from having a solid ongoing title, Hal Jordan and Barry Allen did. At least, I never thought Hal would be hurting in sales so much as unpopular as a character just stale directions. It's just a Superman villain blows up Green Lantern's home and he becomes a mass murderer killing Green Lanterns and Guardians? Its just too much. Not much respect for a JLA founder who had been a big part of the comic line for 35 years. So 90s extreme, no respect for characters, temporary sales peak is the answer to the Emerald Twilight debacle? Its all fixed now, its just the 1994 event seems drastic. Perhaps as soon as this happened people wanted Hal Jordan back and lead to the revival a decade later?



Yes, a lot of fans think he was always a test pilot for Ferris Air, but from around 1968 to 1980 that was not the case. The whole GA/GL do America was made possible due to Hal's truck driver occupation. I can see it as a way to freshen up the character, but like the general public or casual fans know Hal is tied to Ferris air. A lot of obscure stuff like Itty the alien starfish friend of Hal. I have read some of the comics from 1979-1981 and its a pretty solid run, earth-based enemies like Sonar, Evil Star, and Shark all plague Hal while at Ferris and rekindling a relationship with Carol after a brief romance with a gypsy.

What is your opinion about the silver age era GL? I know it contains the first Hal Jordan's adventures. There are very tempting omnibus on Amazon but I don't know if this is good on a storyline point of view, or only for a collection point of view.

I own the GL/GA run. Is this comparable or did GL improve with time?

[Andrew NDB]

It's just a Superman villain blows up Green Lantern's home and he becomes a mass murderer killing Green Lanterns and Guardians?

Number of Green Lanterns Hal killed? 1. Kilowog, and he was brought back quickly.

Number of Guardians Hal killed? 0. They killed themselves.

So a grand total death toll of 1. Hardly a "mass murderer." And even Kilowog, he gave him fair warning to get out of his way.

Its just too much. Not much respect for a JLA founder who had been a big part of the comic line for 35 years. So 90s extreme, no respect for characters, temporary sales peak is the answer to the Emerald Twilight debacle? Its all fixed now, its just the 1994 event seems drastic. Perhaps as soon as this happened people wanted Hal Jordan back and lead to the revival a decade later?

"Fixed"? Nobody cares about Hal Jordan unless they do some gimmick with him. There's a reason his latest comic (literally called "Hal Jordan") has just been cancelled.

Parallax was the best thing to ever happen to him. I would have happily read a Parallax ongoing.

[MikeandRaph87]

We have to disagree there. When I got into comics in the Spring of 2002 I was disappointed to learn Hal Jordan was not Green Lantern and how it happened. Two and half years later he came back in a big way. I have not dropped the title since GL: Rebirth#1. There have been points of frustration,but I have enjoyed it overall.

[Leo656]

I try not to post anymore, but as a huge GL fan myself I have to step in and call horse sh*t on the "Parallax was out of character for Hal Jordan" nonsense. It ignores years' worth of story set-up and character development beforehand, for one thing, and also dismisses the information presented in the story itself.

Consider that everyone Hal Jordan knew violently died. I'll ask everyone to forget and put aside editorial considerations for a moment - I didn't know about sh*t like "sales numbers" or "market trends" when I was 10, and I didn't spend all my free time trying to figure out WHY people were writing this story or that one. I just read them and went along for the ride. So while we all know now that there were a lot of marketing reasons why the end of the "Reign of the Supermen" story and the beginning of the "Emerald Twilight" story were tied together; it solved a lot of issues across the entire DC line to do things as they did. Fine. Business is business, "Money talks and bullsh*t walks", okay, we know that. So let's put it all aside, ignore the "cheap marketing gimmick" nonsense, and focus on the stories themselves.

First off... I DON'T agree with Andrew about lots of things, just in general. I actually like Geoff Johns as a writer, generally speaking, and he's done a lot of stuff I enjoyed BUT he's definitely not as deserving of all the praise he gets in some circles. So we'll agree to disagree on Johns, but as far as GL in general, I have to give Andrew credit because, as far as fans go, he is to GL what I am to Superman. Seen it all, read it all, has insight others don't have... so, respect. Even when I absolutely don't agree with him I recognize where his opinions come from.

But I DO agree on Hal Jordan... at least, to a point. As a kid, I knew Hal from Super-Friends. I liked Green Lantern in general, but didn't know much about him, and when I finally read some GL comics, the powers were always FAR more interesting than the man wearing the ring. He was, much like the "real" Barry Allen, good-natured and well-meaning but horribly bland, dry as cardboard as a character.

When I first "met" Guy Gardner, it was like going from black and white to Color. He was everything Hal wasn't, and although he wasn't perfect, that imperfection became his entire character; the TRUE "hard-luck hero" who always tried his best to do his version of "the right thing" no matter what despite it never, EVER working out for him. He always fought harder than anyone, and always lost. Or, if he won, he got no credit for it. Even when he saved Superman during the Eclipso mess - by dropping a giant scoop of pure molten sun on top of a possessed Superman, like a F*CKING BADASS - everything Guy did was dismissed, downplayed, and ignored. Not only did the character take on great personal significance for me, he became my third favorite DC character of all time behind Superman and Batman.

What was great about the interactions between Guy and Hal, and the incredible consistency between the writers of the various DC books by then, was that Guy would ALWAYS point out what a fraud and a hypocrite Hal was, despite always treating Guy like some kind of moron or even a liability. How everyone always looked up to and admired Hal, despite Hal hardly ever doing anything to earn such admiration; whereas Guy may have gotten on everyone's nerves, HE was the one who always had to fight harder than anyone else just to prove he even "belonged" in the JLA. And he did belong. He earned it. He was fighting alongside the JLA against guys like Despero while Hal was taking time off from being a GL to "figure his life out", or something. Not that Hal was, again, a "bad" character, but he just simply wasn't anything "special", and whenever he was contrasted with a much more dynamic personality like Guy, that blandness was spotlighted tenfold.

When Guy kept his word and left the Corps after losing a fight to Hal... I know, for a FACT, that I wasn't the only kid who was disappointed - although it gave us the AWESOME Yellow Ring era, and Guy's incredible solo book (at least, the first 16 issues). But even in the material, everything was presenting it like the wrong guy (pun intended) got to keep the ring. Hal was clearly a jerkoff and Guy was standing up for himself against a bully; by this point, I and a LOT of people were ready to see Hal Jordan take a little rest. He was a dick, and he was a dick who did nothing to EARN being so smug.

Now, this will bring us back to Hal's personality in general, and how it's been altered several times, as Andrew has pointed out. Up through the 80s, he was pretty generic. When Crisis happened, making heroes more "three-dimensional" was the order of the day. Superman became more introspective, Batman was placed in stories dealing with the fallout from Robin's death, and Hal... well, they weren't sure what to do with Hal. I, personally, was a big fan of the two "Emerald Dawn" mini-series that re-told Hal's origin and the basic origin of the mythos. Some people weren't fans, because for one thing, a major story point involved Hal Jordan getting involved in a drunk driving accident and being sentenced to jail time, and since the Silver Age and its eternally-pure heroes were still fresh in peoples' minds, there was a vocal chorus of "Hal Jordan Wouldn't Do That". Conversely, "Emerald Dawn" was the first version of the GL origin that I'd ever read, so I grew up with the basic idea, as established therein, that Hal Jordan was a deeply flawed person; He made a lot of bad decisions, didn't like authority, had way too high an opinion of himself, and didn't always know how to deal with consequences when he'd make a mistake. I honestly liked it. I still preferred Guy, but some of who Hal was made more sense to me, now, and I was more sympathetic towards him based on all he'd been through. The "new" GL stories of the late 80s and early 90s were very much about Hal using the role of GL to become a better human being, and he didn't always get it right, and I thought that was really great.

Then, JUST when he finally seemed to have a handle on things, someone nukes his city and kills everyone he loves. He practically took his eye off the ball for a DAY, and it cost him EVERYTHING in his life. He wasn't even a part of the Superman/Mongul beef beforehand, making it all the more tragic; everyone he knew died because of someone ELSE's grudge match.

Now, if you honestly, TRULY can't see how that would have driven even the sanest man mad, to say nothing of someone like Hal who by then was established as having... issues, then you're not considering the weight of the story and are thinking too much about the real-life "marketing" stuff behind it. IN THE STORY, this guy lost everyone he cared about. Gone. For no reason. He had already been on edge, and then he fell over.

It DID make sense. It made PERFECT sense.

They'd spent years by then establishing Hal's relationships, and how far he'd go for the people he cared for, and how he'd always struggled with his failures and the guilt, and how much of his bravado was a false front to mask insecurities, and how he often felt like he wasn't even worthy of the ring... and then this happens. He snaps. "If only I'd been there." "This isn't fair." "I should have done something. I should DO something." We've all felt these things when we lose someone for unjust reasons, but most of us don't have the most powerful weapon in the universe on our finger at the time. Or else, most of us would have done EXACTLY what Hal did.

You have a ring that makes your dreams reality, and now everyone you love is dead and you want them back. So what do you do? You throw logic and reason out the window and try to "bring them back" because it's all you can think about. Someone tells you "No." Even though you have the power, you don't have the Right. Your personal injustice is just one more thing in an infinite cosmos. It's completely trivial in the big picture, it means nothing, it's insignificant, and by the way, head right to Oa for your f*cking spanking. How DARE you have feelings? How DARE you miss your family?

Jesus, I wanted to take a swing at one of the Guardians myself, for not having the slightest bit of compassion, or even TRYING to understand what Hal was going through. Instead, they pushed him; and when you go after a wounded animal, it will fight to the death to defend itself.

The rub is... Hal as Parallax WAS NOT THE VILLAIN. Not really. He was only ever misguided. He became the BEST kind of "villain", one whose motives make absolute sense and are completely relatable to anyone reading, and is only "evil" in the sense that they're completely uncaring of how their plans would hurt anyone else because they're 100% convinced of their own righteousness. He was "doing the wrong things for the right reasons". Trying to wipe out all existence and recreate the Multiverse "His Way" was obviously wrong on its face, but he could still justify it. It's easy, as a reader, to read a story and say, "This guy is the Bad Guy", but when you're IN the story, and the guy with the power to recreate existence says, "I can make a world where Bruce Wayne's parents lived. I can make a world where Kal-El grows up on Krypton with his family. I can erase the Holocaust. I can un-crucify Jesus. I can literally make it so that not a bad thing ever happens to anyone, anywhere, in the entire universe and all of history. Don't sweat the details, I'm just God, and I'm a God who doesn't want anyone to suffer, ever"... come ON. Anyone would be tempted by what he was offering.

(Cont.)

[Andrew NDB]

Someone mentioned the 70s "Hard Traveling Heroes" stories from Dennis O'Neil with Hal Jordan and Oliver Queen. Really great stories! They haven't aged particularly well, as those as seeded with then very topical issues. It's a bit telling that Hal Jordan was used as kind of the one dimensional "straight man" to Oliver Queen's more spirited activist. Appreciation of those stories also made me appreciate their later team-ups, and especially when Hal visited Oliver as Parallax during "Parallax View." Chilling. Also, Oliver was always supposed to be Hal's best friend... I guess Geoff didn't like that, so that's one of the first things he removed, replacing him with Barry... and then never actually bothering to include Barry, ever (no time... it's always from one big GL megavent to the next).

The rub is... Hal as Parallax WAS NOT THE VILLAIN. Not really. He was only ever misguided. He became the BEST kind of "villain", one whose motives make absolute sense and are completely relatable to anyone reading, and is only "evil" in the sense that they're completely uncaring of how their plans would hurt anyone else because they're 100% convinced of their own righteousness. He was "doing the wrong things for the right reasons". Trying to wipe out all existence and recreate the Multiverse "His Way" was obviously wrong on its face, but he could still justify it. It's easy, as a reader, to read a story and say, "This guy is the Bad Guy", but when you're IN the story, and the guy with the power to recreate existence says, "I can make a world where Bruce Wayne's parents lived. I can make a world where Kal-El grows up on Krypton with his family. I can erase the Holocaust. I can un-crucify Jesus. I can literally make it so that not a bad thing ever happens to anyone, anywhere, in the entire universe and all of history. Don't sweat the details, I'm just God, and I'm a God who doesn't want anyone to suffer, ever"... come ON. Anyone would be tempted by what he was offering.

Exactly. They did something completely unexpected with Hal Jordan and brilliantly gifted to DC its own version of Dr. Doom or Magneto, something they'd never ever had (unless you count the lame attempt with Monarch/Extant). And then they pissed him away because of H.E.A.T., fanboys, and Geoff Johns.

[Andrew NDB]

About Hal Jordan himself... someone once made a very excellent post on my site/board (http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com), the "Definitive Anti-Hal Post" from about 9 years ago. I retrieved it. It's still relevant, especially with the latest GL book that's literally titled "Hal Jordan" being cancelled today. Here it is:

(apparently it's too long to post... here's the first half)

Hello all,

Before beginning, I'd like to make a few things clear. One, if you don't like the Hal/Kyle debate, or posts about it, than you don't have to read this one. I happen to like the Hal/Kyle debate, because I enjoy debating things comic related and GL fans are passionate. If you don't want to read this..don't. I'm sure there are plenty of posts on each message board that you check that you don't read from disinterest...simply make this one of them.

Two, I don't consider this post trolling or flame bait. I consider trolling when you say things JUST to start a fight. These are actually my feelings on the subject and someone not agreeing with them doesn't make them flame bait. It just makes them different than yours.

Three, I'm going to avoid using the word "hate" because even though I know when I say I "hate" Hal I mean it more as an expression, but apparently some MB posters only speak literally and feel the need to post how it's stupid to hate a fictional character, and I literally loathe those responses.

Finally...just to avoid a lot of the over used insults I get here...I'm 34 and married, and prior to marriage I always had girlfriends.

That said, let me say that the reason I felt the need to write this (aside from being bored at work ) was because after over a year of posting my various feeling on the Hal/Kyle debates (actually over 10 years) I'm still often told I "just" dislike the character Hal Jordan.

This isn't true. I didn't put a bunch of superhero names in a hat and decide whoever I pulled out I would dislike. I dislike Hal as a fictional character because of legitimate reasons that I've developed over decades of reading the character (including collect his book through a HUGE chunk of the 80's).

They may not be your feelings about the character, but that alone doesn't negate my opinions.

It is these opinions, and my knowledge of Hal's past sales, that have caused me to come up with this theory:

"Hal doesn't sell well over long periods. His numbers will drop to the point of cancellation within the next few years."

That's my theory. Are Hal's sales great now? Awesome! But...his return was heavily hyped and he has a writer (Geoff Johns) who could put "Brother Power the Geek" in the Top 10 for at least one issue.

However, this won't last. It is like many characters that go through a period of major hype. Iron Man and Fantastic Four sold well for awhile after the "Heroes Reborn" saga, but both books dropped back to their regular numbers after the hype was over.

Ka-zar sold really well...when mark Waid and Andy Kubert were on it, and then what? His numbers dropped to the numbers a Ka-zar book would normally generate.

And even with both these advantages, Hal has already lost something like 54% of the books readers in a year. That's not a leveling off. That's a drop. Granted the first issue posted high enough numbers that the book is still doing really well, but that is a BIG drop off. It lost over 2,000 readers this month alone...a year in.

Why?

Again, my theory is "Hal doesn't sell". His return, the hype, the creative team, it's made people forget that for now, but that will die down eventually, and he'll be back on the verge of cancellation or having to undergo a major re-direction.

Why?

Because that's what always happens with Hal.

Now as for why this is constantly happening to Hal...I have my theories on this too.

Now before I begin posting those, you may ask why I want to post these opinions/theories on Hal. Good question. I dislike several superheroes, why post about Hal.

I'll admit...it's because Hal replaced my boy Kyle as the main DCU GL. That's why I'm arguing about Hal and not Wolverine, Silver Surfer, or any of the other heroes I don't like.

BUT that doesn't mean I'm JUST picking on Hal. I have legitimate reasons I don't like Hal that date back to before Kyle was created. Hal is just getting my attention because he is in my boy's seat. However I'm not making up reasons just because I like Kyle better.

Anyway, as for why I feel Hal doesn't sell...I think it has to do with the fact he has no personality besides that of a generic superhero personality.

To better explain this, I'm going to quote something said about Hawkman's powers from a website called seanbaby.com:

"If you're a Super Friend, being able to fly is like being able to break a graham cracker along the line...Don't get me wrong. Flying is pretty cool. But if you're a super hero, it might as well be the ability to read."

What 'seanbaby' is saying about Hawkman's main superpower is exactly how I see Hal's personality in a world of superheroes.

To be a superhero a character must have certain traits: sense of justice, willingness to put ones self at risk, etc. After that, it is the traits the characters have BESIDES those that makes then interesting as individuals. Hal doesn't have any of these. He's a throwback to the pre-Lee/Kirby days of big chinned grinning cardboard cutout superheroes distinguishable only by their costumes and hair coloring.

Nowhere is this better shown than in the much ballyhooed speech Hal gives in 'Rebirth' where he describes why he's different from the other GL's.

In the speech he says how you can tell the ring constructs of the other GL's (Kyle, John, and Guy) are affected by their personalities, but not Hal's. Why? Because Hal does "just what needs to done".

EXACTLY! Hal only does what a generic superhero would do BEFORE you added an actual personality to him. His ring isn't affected by his personality because there is nothing about his personality that isn't covered in the list of generic superhero traits.

Oh...and then he punches Batman.

[Andrew NDB]

(here's the rest)

That's the new way to do characterization for Hal. First over-explain things he does that all other superheroes do, than have him punch someone to stress how macho he is, despite the fact it's out of character.

Look the new JLA #1 with Roy talking about Hal. First Roy says only one person taught him to be fearless...Hal! This makes no sense. Roy grew up surrounded by superheroes, all of whom acted as brave as Hal. Second..it literally makes no sense. You can't teach someone to be fearless. You can teach them to overcome fear, sure, but teach them how to never experience it? Huh? That makes no sense. Plus, Hal was born without fear. It wasn't something he picked up.

Oh, and then he threatens to fight Roy.

And speaking of the born without fear thing, it embodies another problem with Hal as a character. He's too perfect. And by that I mean he's literally a character who is already at the end of his arc. He has nothing to achieve. He is the best GL, he is confident, he is a respected hero, he's fearless, etc. Individually, these traits can be fine, but together, and in a character who was born with them, where is Hal's arc? Where is his internal drive or conflict? Easy...he has none. He's already at the stage that usually comes at the end of a character arc.

Due to this a lot of dopey things have to be done to Hal to try and make him have a personality, as perfect characters can't drive stories with their personality (or as Denny O'Neil said about Hal, he's a character that needs to write around, not written about).

Currently those things are things like Hal having to deal with the judgments of his fellow heroes (i.e. Batman) and the recently found GL's for his time as Parallax...which could actually be interesting except for one thing: Hal was never Parallax. Parallax was giant yellow cockroach controlling Hal. Hal actually did NOTHING wrong (how could he? He's perfect) so it's actually those other people (Batman and the not-dead-GL's) that have something to overcome (i.e their prejudice towards Hal) and hence the ones with the actual character arcs in this tale.

This is just one example of the balancing act of how to make Hal interesting without infringing upon the perfection inherent in the character, which is dealt with by him having to occasionally act uncharacteristically, like punching people out of nowhere, or acting uncharacteristically stupid as in his POW storyline.

I mean, if you want to play Hal as someone who wouldn't take his ring on a test flight because it kills his buzz, fine, but not taking it on a mission where it could come in handy with helping his OTHER soldiers, that's just stupid, which is not a trait of Hal's. But again, they have to decide what they want to do with Hal first, than decide how to get him there (even if it is uncharacteristic) because perfect, flawless, fearless characters don't really drive stories.

I mean, they could if they didn't have a magic wishing ring that would do whatever they want as then the conflict would be between this hero and finding a way to accomplish his goals (ala Indiana Jones), but the ring negates that, so we're left with a character with no shortcomings as a character and giant deus ex machina wrapped around his finger to negate any outer conflicts he may face.

Which brings me to the mantra Geoff Jones is repeating through all his interviews about Hal...that the great thing about Hal is (unlike Batman) he doesn't plan...he just jumps right into things and then thinks his way out of it. This too could be interesting if not for, again, the fact has the power ring, so when he does think of what to do...voila...it's right there, and two...it's not true. Like the teaching Roy to be fearless thing, and the Rebirth "My personality is my lack of personality" speech, this is all smoke and mirrors. Nicely written but essentially meaningless.

All heroes jump into things and then figure their way out. Even Batman. Does Bats make plans? Sure...when he knows what's going to hit him, which is only like 5% of the time, or if the story has to do with the fact Batman is a control freak (ala Waid's "Tower of Babel" storyline in JLA), but mostly he, like most superheroes, await for the threats to reveal themselves, then jumps into battle.

Like most superheroes. Like Hal.

Now I know a lot of you will say Hal isn't perfect, and use his often rebelling against the Guardians as proof, but it isn't. Hal only rebels when the Guardians are wrong, making him perfect again. Am I saying he should not rebel when the Guardians are wrong? No. I'm just saying it doesn't prove he's not perfect, and also...it's something every superhero would have, hence backing up the generic superhero personality thing. The one time he was wrong with his rebellion, it wasn't him...it was the big bug. The other time, he was drunk...and now that's retconned away.

Also, I know many will argue I'm someone who only likes brooding characters, but that's not the case and would only be something said to try and blow off my actual arguments.

I like all kinds of character, funny, brooding, flirty, mysterious, daring, whiny, obnoxious... whatever. I'm not saying Hal isn't "dark" enough or "reflective" enough...I'm saying he isn't ANYTHING enough and that affects the character.

It makes him uninteresting.

It causes his books to fail numerous times.

And it will rear its head again, and the books sales will reflect that...again.

Hal is nothing but a cardboard cutout superhero with no internal conflict to drive the story personally and too much power to get into any situations he can't get out of.

In a world full of superheroes, he's generic, and that makes him dull, and as the hype dies down and nostalgia gives way people will remember why they didn't collect Hal in the past and his books numbers will drop, and in a few short years he will be on the verge of cancellation or needing to be revamped. Big events like the Sinestro Corps War will get people excited about Green Lantern....but not do a thing for Hal. He merely attends these events and any additional attention he receives is only residual, and otherwise only serve as delightful (temporary) distractions to take our eyes off the ball.

I know it like I know at that point Wizard will stop sucking up and do an article on whether or not DC made a mistake bringing back Hal as GL.

That is my theory.

Sincerely,
N.T. Platypus

[Leo656]

Thanks for not letting me finish. :lol: I'll wrap it up, I swear! :trazz:

Anyways...

The entire time he was Parallax, up until he sacrificed himself to stop the Sun-Eater, that's ALL he ever talked about doing: "Making Things Right." In his mind, he was still just trying to right a wrong... ALL "wrongs", really, and that over-reaching is what made him a "villain", but he never did too much that was "evil". Brutal, maybe, like putting Guy's eye out or cutting off Boodika's hand, but as Andrew said, even killing Kilowog was more circumstantial than a willing act of murder. His repeatedly stated goal was simply to end all suffering, everywhere, forever. Not to "take over", although obviously that would be the means to the end... not to "crush" anyone, no typical "villain" motivation... simply his natural heroic ideals, now twisted by too many tragedies.

It was all led up to, it all made sense, it WAS all in-character (consistent with how his character had been presented for the previous several years), and it all paid off when he sacrificed and redeemed himself. I even dug how they forced him to take on the mantle of the Spectre as "penance", just because it was so unexpected and fresh.

Unlike Andrew, I do like how "GL: Rebirth" brought Hal back and re-established the "normal" GL mythos, but I think I'm just more lenient of things in comics than he is, in general. :lol: I always expected someone to un-do or re-set everything, since Hal and the Corps had been such a huge part of the DCU for so long, so when someone finally did it, and it wasn't stupid or nonsensical (in my opinion), AND Kyle got to stick around, I was pretty happy with it. I do agree that making Parallax a "Fear Parasite" that simply latched onto Hal and "forced" him to do all of those things is kind of a cop-out, BUT I allow for a certain amount of "have your cake and eat it too" with these things. In MY headcanon, the Parallax entity had become too weak from its imprisonment in the Central Battery to fully take control of Hal, but was able though exposure to influence him somewhat by manipulating thoughts, fears, and insecurities that Hal already had and bringing them to the surface, making him so unbalanced. It makes sense, because retroactively, even though it was later explained that he was "possessed" the entire time, many times during his Parallax run the "real" Hal would emerge briefly, before he would start acting unbalanced again. So again, I personally dismiss the angle of, "He wasn't at all in control of himself", because that's not even consistent with the earlier stories, but I DO accept, "He was being influenced to a degree, but still acting mostly on his own" because there was evidence of that LONG before Johns ever came up with his "parasite" explanation, which leads me to think they always had a seed planted in case they wanted to flip Hal back to "good".

I mean, they must have. If the Kyle experiment hadn't been such a runaway success, I mean if fans really demanded in like 1994 that Kyle go away and Hal come back... they would have had to un-do Emerald Twilight, somehow. Like how Bruce during that same time period was always going to come back as Batman, but Azrael was originally supposed to keep the role for a while longer than he did, and DC sped up the resolution due to how poorly the AzBats angle was being received in general. It's different in that Bruce was always going to come back, and DC really did intend on keeping Hal away, at least for a long while, BUT if fans demanded he come back, they would have caved. Therefore, I do believe that DC ALWAYS had a back-up plan to bring Hal and the Corps back, and they probably always planned to explain that Hal had been manipulated by SOMEONE during Twilight. Personally, since Parallax hadn't been revealed as a "Fear Parasite" back then, I strongly suspect that Sinestro would eventually have been revealed to be the direct and sole mastermind. Sinestro and the Yellow Ring were HUGE plot points in the DCU that year-plus, like it was all building to something, and then it all got abruptly dropped when Kyle came in, but I don't doubt for a second that if "Rebirth" had happened ten years earlier than it did, it would have been Sinestro, not "The Real Parallax" that had turned Hal.

Instead, Geoff kind of juggled the details of what they already had established, AND doubled-down on Hal being possessed so he wouldn't have to take any responsibility for anything less-than-heroic he'd ever done. Which I agree with Andrew is kind of a cop-out, but eh. Could've been worse.

I AM glad Hal and the Corps came back, and unlike Andrew I generally enjoyed most of what I read afterwards (until I stopped buying books in 2008-ish). But to dismiss the entire Parallax storyline as somehow fraudulent, or to say that it did any kind of disservice to the character of Hal Jordan... no, Andrew is right, that was the most interesting few years that Hal Jordan's character EVER had. He was no great shakes before, and he came out of the whole mess with an actual personality and motivations, had faced untold adversity and come through it changed. That's called "Character Development". He never had any until the 80s/90s. Sad But True Facts.

Another thing Andrew's right about is that Kyle Rayner's run as GL was f*cking awesome. I wasn't sure what was going to come next for GL after Hal flipped out, but I took to Kyle instantly. He was greatly serviced by having writers who understood that they needed to create a realistic, complicated, three-dimensional character if they were going to have him take the place of someone like Hal who had almost always been an archetype more than anything. Making Kyle an artist was great, because it gave them a chance to do more creative things with the ring's powers than the generic Giant Boxing Gloves and Ping-Pong Paddles of yore. And although it's gotten tons of criticism, especially in recent years, I 100% maintain that Major Force murdering Kyle's girlfriend almost immediately after Kyle got the ring was absolutely necessary, because it instantly established that this kid was way out of his depth, in a world he didn't understand, with stakes he wasn't ready to deal with. The first couple issues, Kyle gets the standard "I'm a super-hero now and life is PERFECT!" origin story, letting the reader settle into the new status quo and feel "safe"... then, sharp left turn, the hugely-endearing girlfriend character gets murdered and stuffed in the fridge, with no build-up or warning. Brutal, yes, BUT, Bad Sh*t needs to happen to establish that there are consequences, and it made everyone immediately aware that this was not the "safe, predictable" Green Lantern anymore. Furthermore, Alex remained a presence in the book long after her death and the event affected literally everything Kyle did afterwards, and every one of his relationships. Again, that's Character Development. Good stuff.

Kyle's run COULD have simply been gradually unraveling the mystery of all the GL mythos that had come before him, finding his place in it, and growing into a hero on his own terms... and it WAS all of that, but it also became so much more than that. I can't stress enough, that if anyone is actively avoiding the Kyle Rayner Era of the comics, simply because they prefer Hal Jordan, they're a damn fool. Not because one is better than the other, but because objectively, the Kyle Rayner issues are, by and large, very, very, VERY good Green Lantern stories. There's action and drama and poignancy and tragedy and heartbreak and evolution and heroism. Everything that makes good fiction, period.

From 1997 through 2002, I will admit as a HUGE fan, that DC's output was mostly crap. Only a few books were worth reading at all, but Kyle's run as GL was, by far, consistently one of the very best books for many years. Hey, I'm a "purist" myself, I grew up with Hal, wasn't thrilled to see him replaced by "some nobody". But to be blunt, once Kyle was established and even Superman was treating him as an equal... if Hal never came back, I wouldn't have cried about it. Kyle was more than fine. Better than Hal? The best ever GL, period? That's up to individual interpretation and preference. :lol: But any and all biases aside, Kyle had one of the all-time greatest runs in comics. Anyone who says otherwise is lying and can't see past their own nostalgia.

Hal is fine. He's awesome sometimes. Kyle is also extremely awesome. I totally get why he's "The Real Green Lantern" to Andrew, and many others of "our" generation, the way Wally West is "The Real Flash" to me. Not just because they got tapped to fill a slot as a "legacy" character, but because they were DEVELOPED and GREW into the role over many years and many more stories, and became fully-formed characters of their own. Whenever anyone dismisses Wally or Kyle as "the fill-ins", I get pretty upset, because that is NOT what happened. Kyle is "Green Lantern" every bit as much as Hal, or Kilowog, or any of the "classics". He more than earned it.

Just had to throw my two cents in. Again, Green Lantern is something I've long been fairly passionate about, and the "Rise/Fall/Rise" of Hal Jordan was what initially made me care about him to begin with, so I felt I had to set the record straight on a few things that were being misspoken.
--------------------------

Now, it's all really inconsequential, anyways, because everyone knows that Guy f*ckin' Gardner is, was, and forever shall be, "The One, TRUE Green Lantern"!
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/2/20/Guy_Gardner_018.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20091025044818
"FUHGEDDABOWDIT!" :tcool::tcool::tcool:

[Andrew NDB]

Unlike Andrew, I do like how "GL: Rebirth" brought Hal back and re-established the "normal" GL mythos,

I actually really enjoy Rebirth itself. It's really well done, and delicately done. You can feel the touch of editorial in reining in Johns there, but it works. And I know from Ethan Van Sciver that Ethan Van Sciver was as much a part of the creative process there as Johns... hell, even Peter Tomasi weighed in on it, and that was his editor.

The wheels didn't come off until the first few issues of the Sinestro Corps War... and then things were laid threadbare by the completely anti-climactic end of it. There really was no plan. Geoff was just playing with his action figures in an official comic, and people threw a lot of money at it. And then he never stopped.

So I don't dislike "Rebirth," I just don't like the turn in what it represented. I certainly never wanted the Corps to stay gone... during the Kyle run, an eventual restoration of the Corps seemed an obvious thing to happen eventually, with Kyle destined to have some place of prominence within it. It was something to look forward to. I just didn't expect that would come at a personal cost to him, as a character. He's been jerked around more than anybody else.

Eleven years. Eleven years he was the only GL. That's like two whole generations of GL fans. And despite some initial allusions of goodwill towards Kyle, Geoff made it clear he would make it his mission to undermine and sweep under the rug everything Kyle ever did.

He even went so far as to have Sinestro kill Kyle's mom! And then ignore it! There's whole comic stories afterward where Kyle is interacting with Sinestro and it's never even brought up.

But "Green Lantern" to me has always been more interesting as a grand space saga or space opera rather than "I really like Kyle" or "I really don't like Hal." Things like the intrigue with the Guardians, the Controllers, the Zamarons, and ancient stuff with the Empire of Tears and Qward and all of that... the different eras of GL in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s, how they are so different yet build on one another. The changing characters, the changing dynamics of the Corps, the histories there, the bad blood... this or that. Super old adversaries from two decades ago coming back, and it making perfect sense. That's the kind of stuff I enjoy. And it's what Geoff Johns spent about 10 years and 20 megavents tearing down, either to suit his own personal taste or to better align with the "Green Lantern" movie he produced and oversaw yet pretends he had nothing to do with now.

[Leo656]

Lots'a Stuff!

Fair points.

For one thing, I was extremely happy to learn that Kyle wasn't going to be killed off just so Hal could return, because I was afraid of that as I'm sure many were. But after that, yeah, I wasn't always thrilled with how he was handled. It felt like pandering; "We'll keep Kyle around for the fans who like him... but we won't give him anything too important to do."

And it did feel, to me, like everything up until Sinestro Corps War had been building to something, had been at the very least planned and mapped out. It felt tight, and then, as you said, the ending kind of wobbled and then they just started adding new ring colors to keep things interesting. :lol: I do like Blackest Night, but I agree things post-Sinestro Corps War in general weren't as tight as they had been previously.

I think we like a lot of the same things about Green Lantern, as to what you've described. I don't fully agree that Geoff fully tore it down, or at least altogether intended to. To some point, as he usually does, it seemed like he was trying to represent the past and use it to weave threads into new stories, but it definitely seems like he got too distracted by the Colors Wars to bother with the past mythology anymore, after a point. I mean, he did start off by updating or bringing back a bunch of "classic" GL characters, both hero and villain... but then all the new characters, new "ancient conspiracies that change everything you thought you knew", and whatnot kind of made things fuzzy.

But I'm with you on why the franchise appeals. Absolutely. Green Lantern is one of my all-time favorite things, ever. Guy Gardner, individually, but Green Lantern as a thing, in general, as well. Even Alan, with that swank purple cape and the "...And I will shed my light over dark evil" version of the Oath, and that spiffy puffy red shirt. :lol: Love Green Lantern.

[Leo656]

Also, Yeesh... everything in that "Anti-Hal" letter Andrew posted was extremely harsh, but tough to argue. It reads like it was written shortly after GL: Rebirth, but it's still tough to argue with over a decade later, regardless. Again, I really like Green Lantern, I have a ton of books (nowhere near as many as Andrew, sadly! :lol:), and I like a lot of Hal's stories. I was even pretty happy with Ryan Reynolds and his interpretation of Hal (although, as usual, Ryan kind of just plays himself). So I'm no "hater". I'll even totally defend Hal banging Arisia, if I'm properly motivated (it's a weak defense, but still... :lol:). Green Lantern has always been one of my favorite books to read, no matter who the star was. And I'll even defend Geoff Johns's work, by saying that for better and worse, his run on the books had me buying Green Lantern more religiously than at any point since I was 11-12 years old, so obviously I was having fun with it or I wouldn't have stuck with it. I much prefer his JSA stuff, but I have liked much of his GL.

But Hal really has always been pretty vanilla. "Generic Super-Hero", as stated above, fits perfectly. His powers are great, but they've always been the meat of his stories while his personality only rarely factored into things. It's funny, because a while ago I was talking to someone about how Green Lantern was seriously misused on Super-Friends, arguably the least-interesting character of all, because at least Zan and Jayna had a f*cking space monkey. But then I realized, by definition everyone on that show had to be a cardboard cutout of themselves, and Hal already was kind of "stock"; watering him down at all didn't leave anyone much to work with.

I don't always agree with how Geoff has handled Hal, but I do appreciate that he's at least tried to flesh him out a little bit. It's not too similar to how he acted pre-Parallax and Rebirth, but a lot of super-heroes come back a little different when they rise from the dead, and it always seemed natural, to me. Like when Superman came back from the dead, he was a lot more carefree and cut loose a bit more than he had before he died, and he'd internally monologue about how coming back gave him a new perspective on everything. I kind of figure the same thing happened with Hal. I've noticed it happens more than some may think; very few characters just pick up right where they left off when they're resurrected. Even Guy Gardner mellowed out a bit after his own death and rebirth; he wasn't half as abrasive as he used to be, and they've kept that consistent years later. I think it's an interesting writer's tool, in that it gives one a perfect excuse to tweak things they don't like, or try and add some growth to a boring, stagnant, or directionless character. It's far too overdone nowadays, of course, but it provides rich opportunities for experimentation and exploration.
-----------------------

Speaking of Guy Gardner, I actually feel like his history and personality have been screwed with more unforgivably than Hal's in the last decade-plus. Some of it was great; Warrior served its purpose but was ultimately stupid, and I was glad to see it be thrown out after far, far too long. I had reservations about seeing Guy so easily become a Lantern again, as he had done so much in the intervening years to distance himself from his history and the Corps. But his simple dismissal of "Hey... I lied!" was easy enough to swallow. He'd dismissed chances to take the ring back before, so it was kinda weird... but he was Warrior at the time, and was seemingly fine that way. A quest for power at any cost has ALWAYS been consistent with Guy's character, so once he became aware his Vuldarian powers were gone, obviously he wasn't going to pass up the chance to have a Power Ring anymore under those circumstances. And elevating his "rank" in the Corps., and doing lots and lots of stories with him, and seemingly finally giving Guy his due... I was a huge fan of all that. That's part of why I like Geoff's run so much; he didn't do everything right, but after ten-plus years someone was taking my favorite character out of the box again, and making him super-important.

But other things made no sense, and I don't like them. For example, for reasons I can't understand, huge chunks of his history have been erased, ignored, or flat-out retconned. Important backstory. Family history. Historic events. And it happened slowly; little by little, over a period of years, Guy became a whole different character. First, it was shortly after Infinite Crisis, where Guy declares to Blue Beetle something to the effect of, "I ain't never killed nobody in my life", when that's patently false. Specifically, during his run as Warrior - which is, as far as I know, still canon, as it is still referenced on occasion - Guy killed lots of people. And aliens. And stuff. That was his thing, he was the hero who would "cross the line". He and Lobo had that whole contest on the Tormock's planet where they competed to see who could slaughter more of them. And I'm sure he's killed people since then in more recent stories. So that short, weird period in between for a few years, where they repeatedly pretended that Guy was some kind of "innocent" good guy and always had been... was very strange. I just ignore it, but it's there, it happened, and I don't think they ever explained it.

And then there's the fact that he has an entirely different family and life history. He's barely the same person at all, personality aside; everything that ever happened to him, and every single thing that influenced him to become the person who he is, is now completely different than it was, for reasons I don't understand. I hate when comics do this, because again, you can look, talk, and act the same, and have the same name, but if every single thing that has happened in your past is different, you're NOT the same person! Shatner's Capt. Kirk is clearly NOT the same person as Pine's Capt. Kirk, we can all agree on that, so you can see what I'm getting at here.

Guy Gardner's general history was established a long time ago and then given greater detail in the "Yesterday's Sins" arc of his own book, one of my favorite arcs of all time. Without getting too deep into it, it was far more interesting, tragic, and poignant than the rebooted New 52 version. Yesterday's Sins illustrates that Guy Gardner is simply the most tragic unsung hero in the entire DCU, and easily one of the most noble in spite of his self-righteousness; why anyone would hand-wave that kind of development away for some generic "I'm a cop, my whole family are cops, and now I'm a SPACE cop" nonsense is a mystery to me.

So yeah, clearly Geoff doesn't always know best.
-------------------------

To one of your earlier points, Andrew, Hal and Barry HAD often been established as very close friends long before Johns took over and made it firmly established. I'm not sure when it started, as I haven't read a ton of Silver Age GL or Flash, but I do have a lot of books from the 1980s, at least, where Hal was teamed up with Barry. In Mark Waid's run on Flash, for example, in the phenomenal "Return of Barry Allen" arc where Wally finally became the true Flash "once and for all", when "Barry" shows up out of nowhere, part of how he fools Wally and everyone is because Hal steps forward and says that he knew Barry Allen better than anyone, they were super-close friends, and this guy is definitely Barry Allen because Hal Jordan says so and he definitely wouldn't get that wrong (yet ANOTHER early sign that Hal wasn't quite right, or at least had questionable judgment long before he flipped to Parallax). Hal also teamed up with Wally quite often during his Flash run.

So GL and Flash being a team has been a long-established thing long before Geoff came around. Frankly, when I was a kid Green Arrow wasn't getting much of a "push", outside of that spiffy "Longbow Hunters" book, so I mostly saw Hal teaming up with Flash, and I thought they were the de facto "partners". I thought it was strange that Hal and Oliver were more frequent partners, because they seemed to have little in common, to me. :lol: I'm not aware of any degree to which Oliver has been de-emphasized as Hal's friend/partner in more recent years; simply commenting that pairing Hal up with Barry wasn't anything Geoff can take credit nor blame for.

[Andrew NDB]

For one thing, I was extremely happy to learn that Kyle wasn't going to be killed off just so Hal could return, because I was afraid of that as I'm sure many were.

There was 0 chance Geoff would make a martyr of Kyle. No, he was playing the long game... sideline Kyle enough years, enough fans will drop off/age out, the problem will take care of itself. Attrition.

Though Geoff did technically kill Kyle for about 5 minutes during Blackest Night.

And it did feel, to me, like everything up until Sinestro Corps War had been building to something, had been at the very least planned and mapped out. It felt tight, and then, as you said, the ending kind of wobbled and then they just started adding new ring colors to keep things interesting. :lol: I do like Blackest Night, but I agree things post-Sinestro Corps War in general weren't as tight as they had been previously.

I'm glad that they made Blackest Night a company-wide event... and I loved seeing Nekron again. Beyond that... what a horrible execution of something literally every GL fan was super stoked about.

And then they even did Brightest Day (which was actually GOOD) and literally retconned it all away not even a year later with Flashpoint.

I think we like a lot of the same things about Green Lantern, as to what you've described. I don't fully agree that Geoff fully tore it down, or at least altogether intended to.

Maybe not. But there is definitely a sense that "I know best" from him, and he's aligned GL to be strictly within a lens of what he thinks it should be, with stories only told the way he thinks they should be told.

To some point, as he usually does, it seemed like he was trying to represent the past and use it to weave threads into new stories, but it definitely seems like he got too distracted by the Colors Wars to bother with the past mythology anymore, after a point.

Yep, he stopped cold turkey doing that kind of stuff about megavent #2 or #3. Then it stopped being, "What crafty thing will Geoff Johns do that carefully plays with continuity to give us something new built on something old?" (which I liked) and... sort of shifted into, "What is Geoff Johns going to completely cannibalize, either of his existing stories or of longstanding continuity today? Because he doesn't care anymore." Everything he was putting out after a while was exclusively, "Everything you've ever known about Green Lantern/the Guardians/the Maltusians... is WRONG!!!"

Even little things. Like foreshadowing a major Evil Star return, then losing interest in it and forgetting about it. Or foreshadowing the Black Entity inside Black Hand and doing zero with it. Or even completely forgetting about/losing interest in Cowgirl, Hal's girlfriend. These are all things HE wrote and created.

HACK!

I mean, he did start off by updating or bringing back a bunch of "classic" GL characters, both hero and villain...

He did, but if you think back, it was always for a purpose, and then he would lose interest and discard them. Think, like, Arisia. He literally brought her back just to make some retcon where Hal never had sex with a 12 year-old girl (some business about "oh no, THAT? her planet orbits her sun way slower... she was 12 but that's like 200!")... and then she had absolutely 0 meaningful to do with any storyline since (barring her minor supporting cast status on the GLC book later on, not written by Geoff).

Also painfully obvious: Geoff systematically and entirely slaughtered any and all of Kyle's villains from the 90s. In short order, Major Force, Nero, Graven, all got wiped out. All the 90s Lanterns were picked off, too... violently, even. Laira getting cleaved in half sticks out in my head, and Nero being executed like a dog as well. Almost like he had an agenda...

[Leo656]

You gotta wonder to what degree his Hollywood dalliances have had to do with all of that. The guy's genuinely written some awesome stuff in his career - and I still think his overall career average is pretty high; keep in mind, I checked out in 2009 so anything since I'm only passingly aware of - but when someone who used to perform at a consistently high level starts to lose focus, it's extremely noticeable.

"Brightest Day" was it, for me. I had stuck through a lot, and was loving a lot of what was going on in DC; at one point I was buying about 2/3s of the entire line (I had a lot more expendable income back then). And I was loving a lot of Brightest Day's events and excited about the future. THEN I heard that DC was hitting the Panic Button because Final Crisis hadn't gotten over as planned and the fallout since then had them scrambling to refocus the company, and had settled on New 52 and the "Nuke Everything" strategy, which I said then and still maintain was a complete overreaction, totally unnecessary, and did far more harm than good.

So, that's when I dropped everything. I was enjoying the ride just fine, until I found out none of it was going to have a proper ending or matter in just a few weeks. Everything I'd been doing collecting the line for so many years felt like a waste of time. There were other factors; everything going up to $3 an issue (god, if only they'd stayed there...) sure didn't help, and I was going through a personal crisis that gutted my income so I was going to have to drop a ton of books anyway. But the fact that everything I was reading would be pointless in a couple months sealed the deal, for me. I pick up a random issue once in a while, now... really can't afford to collect the way I used to... but that whole period really sucked. I felt completely jerked around and really couldn't justify the expense anymore. I picked up a few New 52 books, didn't like 'em, and felt justified in my decision to take a long break.

Before that, though... man, I had a good run going. I'll be getting all my books out of storage, pretty soon; I'm actually excited to get a chance to re-organize and catalog my collection for the first time in like ten years.

[Andrew NDB]

You gotta wonder to what degree his Hollywood dalliances have had to do with all of that. The guy's genuinely written some awesome stuff in his career - and I still think his overall career average is pretty high; keep in mind, I checked out in 2009 so anything since I'm only passingly aware of - but when someone who used to perform at a consistently high level starts to lose focus, it's extremely noticeable

Personally I think once he became inserted into a position of power on a corporate level, even given full veto power over the GL movie as a producer... his mentality changed from, "I'm a big GL fan who is allowed to play in this sandbox" to "I'm Geoff Johns™, Top Dog Dot Com, and I get to change whatever I want now and make Green Lantern my own." And it showed.

"Brightest Day" was it, for me. I had stuck through a lot, and was loving a lot of what was going on in DC; at one point I was buying about 2/3s of the entire line (I had a lot more expendable income back then). And I was loving a lot of Brightest Day's events and excited about the future. THEN I heard that DC was hitting the Panic Button because Final Crisis hadn't gotten over as planned and the fallout since then had them scrambling to refocus the company, and had settled on New 52 and the "Nuke Everything" strategy, which I said then and still maintain was a complete overreaction, totally unnecessary, and did far more harm than good.

You're a stronger man than me. Though Green Lantern as a property was fairly insulated from "Flashpoint" beyond side stuff... but pertinent stuff. Like, Brightest Day, Jade is resurrected... and then next week, Flashpoint... no more Jade. Her dad is gay on Earth-2 and she's never existed. Also Guy's bizarre new origin that nobody asked for.

So, that's when I dropped everything. I was enjoying the ride just fine, until I found out none of it was going to have a proper ending or matter in just a few weeks.

Initially they were quite ambiguous about how much previous continuity would stand. They made it clear stuff like "Blackest Night" and even "The Death of Superman" stood, just happened... somewhat differently now. Then as time went on it seemed like... maybe they never happened.

There was even a comic with a flashback showing Kyle joining the Green Lantern Corps by Ganthet welcoming him to Oa and giving him a ring and introducing him to all the other Guardians. But I guess that was a mistake...

Before that, though... man, I had a good run going. I'll be getting all my books out of storage, pretty soon; I'm actually excited to get a chance to re-organize and catalog my collection for the first time in like ten years.

My own collection is... vast. It's everything. Everything from the 40s to whenever "Godhead" came out. The wife has it pinned up on the top of the garage on a platform in the 36 mini boxes I put them in... so it's not really convenient to get to. Part of me is like, "Sell it! Screw it, if you want to read X issue, you can probably just access it online!" and the other part is like, "You had a lot of fun collecting all the GL comics for 2 years... you can have fun catching up with all the GL comics you've missed for the past 3 years again!" Which ordinarily wouldn't make me bite... but then I read the Grant Morrison news. Grant Morrison is basically down to be the new Geoff Johns for GL... or at least however much Geoff lets him, from afar. I don't know where you come down on Morrison, but as far as I'm concerned, that man is a f***ing master of storytelling and craft.

And it's interesting. "Green Lanterns" starring Geoff's two SJW Lanterns, Jessica and Baz, is being joined by Hal, whose "Hal Jordan & The GLC" title is being cancelled. Aaaand... that leaves everybody else. If Hal is being shuffled to that book, that means Grant's focus will be on Lanterns other than Hal, Jessica, or Baz.

As in, Kyle. Who he elevated in a huge way during his JLA run in the 90s. And even your boy, Guy.

[Leo656]

There was even a comic with a flashback showing Kyle joining the Green Lantern Corps by Ganthet welcoming him to Oa and giving him a ring and introducing him to all the other Guardians. But I guess that was a mistake...


:roll: Jesus. Horrible. Sloppy.

See, the little bit that I kept up on, I was aware that while most books were getting a full overhaul, they claimed that Batman and Green Lantern (the only consistently strong sellers at the time of the New 52 reboot, "coincidentally") would get to keep most of their established backstory. And that ended up not being true, at all. A lot of that had to do with the "Everybody's entire story is only 5 years old, now" nonsense, but regardless, almost everything that happened before Flashpoint was, as you said, only loosely the same, if at all. Like Guy Gardner. "Kinda sorta the same just totally different whatever nobody cares anyway" is NOT "still the same".

And yeah, all that stuff with Jade, and going to the trouble of bringing her back only to drop the entire angle. The New 52 sucked a batch of dicks. A batch or a box, whatever's bigger. All the dicks. One big 7-year long waste of everyone's goddamn time. And it's not like they can just go back and pick things up where they left off in 2010, and pretend nothing in between ever happened... although that still might be the best idea, if impractical. :lol: I know I'd take whatever was probably in the pipeline back then over pretty much whatever they've done since. All that "Justice League International" build-up, with "Justice League: Generation Lost"... and for WHAT? :roll:

I mean, I hear some recent stuff is pretty good, and I've picked up a few issues here and there that aren't bad. Action Comics #1000, for example, was pure perfection. So they can still hit home runs when they try. I'm just still really burned about that whole era and experience.

I'm in awe of that collection, and I know you keep busy but I'unno how you afford it all. :lol: Earliest thing I own is a Batman comic from the mid-1950s, I think, in awful shape. But it's real, and it's mine. I have a couple Superman books from the 60s, and a bunch more from the 70s, and then just about every Superman book from 1986 through 2010, minus a small handful. But nothing very early, rare, or valuable. Tons of stuff, though; mostly DC but some Marvel, mostly just a few scattered issues or mini-series, not much of a Marvel guy but certain things really grab my eye. I like the Squadron Supreme/Supreme Power stuff, for example. Or "Startling Stories: Banner". I'm looking forward to doing a full inventory in a few weeks, but at one point I had more than a dozen longboxes, about eight of them full of Superman stuff.

I could never sell anything I'd invested so much of my time and money into. At one point collecting was like a full-time hobby, and I'd hit the comic book store several times a week, accumulating a vast collection very quickly. In 2001, I had just over two boxes full of books; by 2008, I had around a dozen or more. Over a hundred bucks a week on books, easy. It all adds up. I couldn't do it all the same way now, but it was a fun and frantic period in my life that I look back on fondly, and I still like to get some back issues in the rare event I have spare cash. I'll probably start collecting more regularly again, even if just back issues of 80s and 90s stuff, once my collection is out of storage and I can put everything away properly.

Altogether, it's probably not even worth selling, though. It's just large; large enough to the point that the only way to unload it would be to sell it to a comic shop owner for a bulk rate, which would inevitably only pay me about 25 cents per issue. I paid cover price for a huge chunk of what I own, and rarely less than a buck for anything else; even if it's all technically "worthless", I couldn't justify taking any kind of loss, which would be necessary if I ever did try to liquidate it. Selling a large comic book collection is like selling a video game collection; if you absolutely need to make space in a hurry, sure, do it; otherwise, the loss isn't worth anything you'll get for it. May as well hang onto it and pass it on for future generations to potentially sell for a few pennies more.

Not that I'd ever even think about selling mine, anyway; just that I've occasionally looked into the logistics just to see if it would even be worth it, and it's not. If we ever ran out of room it'd actually be more practical to build makeshift furniture out of the longboxes and put decorative pillows over 'em. :lol:

[Krutch]

I don't know where you come down on Morrison, but as far as I'm concerned, that man is a f***ing master of storytelling and craft.It's funny - I share the same repulsiveness with Morrison that you do with Johns. I'm truly envious of people who enjoy his work because they seem to eat it all up. I wish I could appreciate it but so much of what I've read of his work just feels... stale? Lifeless? Indulgent? Dare I say "boring"?

I get it - I'm in the minority. But it feels like the whole world is on crazy pills sometimes.

All Star Superman was a bit better on second read, but it's without a doubt my number one "most overrated book of all time." Animal Man was... eh. Had fun moments but I generally don't like characters/stories that acknowledge their just characters in a fictional universe. And injecting himself into the story was eye rolling and borderline masturbatory. Kill Your Boyfriend was trash. Arkham Asylum seemed like a great setup on paper but reads stale. I only read the first two volumes of Batman & Robin but it left me with a feeling that I was just slogging threw it and was never really invested. None of the new villains like Professor Pyg(if I'm remembering correctly) seemed at all interesting. Batman R.I.P was a nightmare and Final Crisis was just boring considering the scope of the thing.

And I maintain The Filth is the worst book I've ever bought - Ever.

(Yeah, these are not exactly in depth critiques but its almost 6am and I'm just writing to pass out, so...)

So yeah, sounds like I'm overly harsh but it's just been my personal experience. His style of storytelling (coupled with dull dialogue) is not to my taste. I do appreciate his work more on a intellectual level. He comes up with some fascinating ideas that's wonderful to disect in your head, but nothing he writes comes close to actually pulling any heart strings.

Just my opinion of course :tcool:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Man, reading Andrew and Leo critiquing and analyzing Green Lantern comics is the most fun I've had on the internet in a long time.

Thanks for the awesome read, Professors! :trazz:

[MikeandRaph87]

What is your opinion about the silver age era GL? I know it contains the first Hal Jordan's adventures. There are very tempting omnibus on Amazon but I don't know if this is good on a storyline point of view, or only for a collection point of view.

I own the GL/GA run. Is this comparable or did GL improve with time?

I would recommend getting Showcase Presents Green Lantern volume one. It lays a lot of foundations and first appearances from Sinestro and other villains as well as Carol Ferris. It is so much cheaper than the omnibus. It is black and white print, but it never bothered me.

As far is it any good? Stories are silly and speed reads. Its more a novelty for what I mentioned above as far as seeing characters for the first time its great in that sense and its worth a read, but is mediocre overall.


https://m.barnesandnoble.com/p/showcase-presents-john-broome/1111527463/2679390050827?st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_New+Marketplace+Shopping+Books_0000000 0&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP164949&gclid=Cj0KCQjwx43ZBRCeARIsANzpzb8p5YYQKeje2ZHlC3W8 grZe5iKon9UhhAx2M00vY13dXqFZfPBECD4aAlCzEALw_wcB


I am on the road atm, but I read for half an hour the responses. There is a lot of insight, some that I disagree with and some that I agree with. I will reply more in depth this evening.

[Leo656]

Man, reading Andrew and Leo critiquing and analyzing Green Lantern comics is the most fun I've had on the internet in a long time.

Thanks for the awesome read, Professors! :trazz:

I do my best, buddy.

[Andrew NDB]

It makes me think... I just read the Third Army event yesterday, and there is one part, when Kyle is working to master all 7 colors, where we saw the first meeting between Kyle and Ganthet, and the first visit of Kyle on Oa (with the meeting of Sayd). Funny thing, it happened "2 years ago"...

The New 52 tried to retroactively keep most of the Batman and Green Lantern continuities, while also compressing them into an impossible "five years since the origins" timeline.

I don't really have a problem with the "time compression." I mean, I can sit down and read GL Vol. 2, #1-224 (from the 60s all the way to the 80s) -- every single issue -- and logically reason that whole slews of issues only take place over the course of a single day, or a week. Yet years are passing in reality. I'm positive I could do the same with all of Kyle's run.

And yeah, all that stuff with Jade, and going to the trouble of bringing her back only to drop the entire angle. The New 52 sucked a batch of dicks. A batch or a box, whatever's bigger. All the dicks. One big 7-year long waste of everyone's goddamn time. And it's not like they can just go back and pick things up where they left off in 2010, and pretend nothing in between ever happened... although that still might be the best idea, if impractical. :lol:

Can't they? Just make a big stupid event, whatever they want, even let the Hackman write it... then WHOOSH, return us to precisely the end of "Brightest Day" & "Generation Lost." They can even keep their SH**TY memories of the New 52 and all that.

I know I'd take whatever was probably in the pipeline back then over pretty much whatever they've done since. All that "Justice League International" build-up, with "Justice League: Generation Lost"... and for WHAT? :roll:

Oh, I know! And I was really, really looking forward to the new JLI after JL: Generation Lost. Then it was bait-and-switched into the FAKE New 52 JLI book where Guy was pretending he'd never met Ice before, etc.. Horrible, awful, ghastly.

Part of me was thinking the resurrected Max Lord (after the end of Brightest Day) just made everyone think the New 52 was real with his powers, and there'd be a story where he's confronted and everything is set back to normal... seemed like a good backdoor, but it never happened. They double-downed instead. But hey, maybe Geoff will reveal Max Lord is the new Ozymandias or whatever in his latest Watchmen sh**fest. Alternately, I also wrote a big theory about Wally (the real Wally) coming out of the Speed Force, unaffected by the events of Flashpoint and trying to make everyone remember the real DCU... and this is exactly what they did!

It's funny - I share the same repulsiveness with Morrison that you do with Johns. I'm truly envious of people who enjoy his work because they seem to eat it all up. I wish I could appreciate it but so much of what I've read of his work just feels... stale? Lifeless? Indulgent? Dare I say "boring"?

Meh! He puts a world-class scholarly level of thought, research and symmetry into every single thing he writes. If something is going over your head or seems boring/stale, it's probably because he's digging up something obscure from the 50s-80s and weaving it into the narrative that you either don't know about or have no interest in. He studies all of the great writers and is always honing his craft.

Geoff's take: "Lots of double-splash pages!! Explosions! BOOOOSH!!! Hal said something COOL!! Let's set up the NEXT story!!"

It's kind of funny, Geoff is like Superboy Prime come to life. Basically.

[Krutch]

Meh! He puts a world-class scholarly level of thought, research and symmetry into every single thing he writes. If something is going over your head or seems boring/stale, it's probably because he's digging up something obscure from the 50s-80s and weaving it into the narrative that you either don't know about or have no interest in. He studies all of the great writers and is always honing his craft.

This is the most common defence I hear when I bring up Morrison. To which I say, being referential doesn't make you a great storyteller, it just shows you've done your homework. As I've said before in another thread, I find it baffling how so many writers get eye rolls and groans when they try the same thing but when Godly Grant does it it's considered groundbreaking :roll:

I had an interest to check out The Invisibles but after reading a decent amount of his work, I just... nah. Hard pass.

Just a difference of opinion I guess.

[Andrew NDB]

This is the most common defence I hear when I bring up Morrison. To which I say, being referential doesn't make you a great storyteller, it just shows you've done your homework. As I've said before in another thread, I find it baffling how so many writers get eye rolls and groans when they try the same thing but when Godly Grant does it it's considered groundbreaking :roll:

The reference bits aren't indicative of his quality of storytelling, it's indicative of his (often) style of storytelling.

I mean, if you can find one, look at one of Grant Morrison's scripts. They are so dense, packed with notes on everything from emotion to references to angles, to everything. He pours a ton of thought into every nuance, and understands well the three act structure.

A Geoff Johns script is... "Hal throws a punch," and "OK, A-list artist, make me look good!"

Just a difference of opinion I guess.

I think it's more a difference in taste. There is nothing wrong with a good cheeseburger, after all. Some people will choose the salad. Others, the steak.

[Krutch]

True. Like I said, I'm genuinely envious of people who like his work because they really seem to love it with great passion. I've never said he isn't talented or that he's a hack. It's just not for me :ohwell:

I'll stick to Moore, Gaimon, Busiek, Whedon... and yeah, at times, Johns :P

But truthfully I'm so out of the loop of modern comics right now. Just thought I'd chime in with my dated two cents :P

--

Sidenote: I'm launching a Kickstarter for a comic somewhere in the next 2 or 3 months. Andrew, if I have any questions, mind if I send you a PM about it? I know you've had experience with it.

[Andrew NDB]

It also maaaay be the artist side of things. You'll never see Geoff Johns not hiding behind an A-list artist with the best colorists -- no matter what, a Geoff Johns comic will always look really, really good. Which he ensures.

Grant Morrison doesn't hide behind A-list artists. I mean, he's worked with some great ones but mostly he partners up with artists as eclectic as he is who can best execute his scripts/notes.

Sidenote: I'm launching a Kickstarter for a comic somewhere in the next 2 or 3 months. Andrew, if I have any questions, mind if I send you a PM about it? I know you've had experience with it.

Sure.

[Leo656]

I think Morrison's exceptionally creative and talented, but he's had his head up his own ass for a very long time. He's obviously very pleased with himself, to hear him talk about his work and his "process." Lots of comic book readers think Grant Morrison is a certified genius, but Grant Morrison is 100% certain of it. :trazz:

I "Like" to "Love" most of his stuff I've read. Like Johns, he's a master of reintroducing characters and/or concepts that have become forgotten or dismissed for being "out of fashion" or otherwise undesirable, and making them work so well that you wonder why nobody else ever did ____ so well before he did. That's a skill and a talent. Consider, the ONE time that Electric Blue Superman wasn't a complete and total sh*tshow, it was in an issue of Grant's JLA. He was the only one who even bothered trying to make that concept work; it didn't, but his take was far less insipid than anyone else's! He's good at stuff like that. Or taking a tiny background character from a Batman comic from 50 years ago, and turning him into a major important character in the present. You can read a Grant Morrison comic a hundred times and see something new every time, some detail or joke or hidden reference. And if there's something so over-the-top or abstract or outlandish that someone insists "simply can't work", he'll somehow make it work. He works hard, and he really is a sharp dude, and his work is very clever.

He's not anywhere near as clever as HE thinks he is, though. Often during one of his books, I'll reach a scene where I can just picture him giggling while writing it down, utterly self-satisfied with being just such a cheeky bastard. And that gets a little bit grating. And like Johns, often his retcons will skirt pretty close to flat-out burying other people's ideas, which also comes off as smug. He breaks the Fourth Wall too often and relies on deus ex machina's and anti-climaxes as a resolution to a frustrating degree. I mean, having characters in-story constantly say things like, "Batman is going to win because he's Batman, it's his only function", or, "Superman is going to save the day because it's the entire reason he exists" is a little bit cute but also heavily eye-roll-inducing. Having Final Crisis end by, literally, "Superman wishes on the Miracle Machine for a Happy Ending", and then ALL the Good Guy characters magically show up at once and just sort'a magically "wish away" the Bad Guy? We were just talking about Geoff Johns writing stories like a little kid playing with toys... well, Final Crisis ended the exact same way my living room action figure "wars" did when I was 6. :lol: And I really, REALLY like Final Crisis, I'm just saying that it's kind of broken.

He also leans WAY too heavily on the Silver Age stuff. Like, I totally understand and even enjoy when he puts those kind of things in there, as long as they don't become too intrusive or distracting; but did Bat-Mite REALLY need to be in "Batman: R.I.P"? I thought the story was fine otherwise, but that seemed a little (or a LOT) self-indulgent. And since I'm a Superman fan, everyone insists that I must love All-Star Superman, and people are forever gushing about how it's "The Greatest Superman Comic Ever made." You know who says that? People who NEVER read a Superman comic, then read that one, and said "Oh, okay, this is fine." I personally think that book is "Okay" but f*cking masturbatory as hell. I do NOT Like Silver Age Superman (generally speaking; things were already getting kind of cleaned-up for the better around 1980 or so); I think the entire Crisis happened solely to provide a chance to re-create Superman "properly" for the first time, which Byrne and Ordway managed to do. But then This Guy comes in all like, "Well, I grew up in the crazy 60s and 70s and I loved it when Superman could see to the other end of the universe and farted fairy dust! I drop acid and so I think stuff like Jimmy Olsen: Turtle Boy is f*cking brilliant! I don't like seeing Superman portrayed as a three-dimensional human being with human thoughts, feelings, and emotions, because that's too 'sad'; I liked it better when he was Santa Claus in a Cape, and he had EVERY super-power plus infinity and was smarter than a thousand Albert Einsteins! THAT's the way my Superman comic is gonna be!" :roll: And it's like everything after 1986 was meaningless, instead of The Only Time Superman Has Ever Been Any Good. It's like anything he grew up with is Good, and anything anyone did to "change" the character(s) afterwards is Bad; Geoff's been guilty of it, too.

Both Grant and Geoff basically want the entire DCU to look like the Super-Friends poster they had on their walls as kids, and are using their own work as a way of passive-aggressively getting back at all the writers from the 1980s and 1990s who "ruined their childhoods". Their styles are totally different but they honestly do pretty much the same things every time they get on a book: just jigger things around until it looks almost exactly the way it did when they were 10, or in some cases, the way they wished it did when they were 10. It's "fine", but when they do it as often as they do it gets noticeable and a little irritating.

I agree that Grant's dialog can be very stiff; his characters don't speak the way real people speak, but I think he's trying really hard to ape Jack Kirby with that. Like the way people will seem to shout increasingly-bizarre things at the top of their lungs for no reason, often while aggressively pointing, or shaking a fist in the air, when that sort of bombast seemingly is not situationally necessary. :lol: That's a thing Kirby used to do constantly and since he's Grant's hero I have to think it's an homage, rather than just being bad at writing dialog. Doesn't make it read any smoother, though! :lol: Clunky. Grant's dialog is clunky.

And I tell ya, I SWEAR sometimes the man is just being weird for the sake of being weird; just to see how far people will "allow" him to push things. And since he's Grant, nobody will actually tell him No, and so even his most ridiculous ideas still see print, because he doesn't have the audacity to admit that he was trolling people. :lol: It's gotta at least partly be that; the alternative is that he's 100% sincere, and that's... deeply troubling.

To be clear, though, I do like Grant Morrison. But I'm not one of his fanatics. I LOVE Batman: R.I.P. and Final Crisis - MOSTLY - but in both cases I had to read them beginning-to-end several times to fully "get" it. Not to enjoy them more deeply, not to look for more Easter Eggs... no, I had to re-read them front-to-back several times just so they'd make SENSE. And they made sense for ME, but I know many people who couldn't make sense of one, the other, either, or both after trying like hell, and at some point, I have to say that reading comics shouldn't require so much "homework". Final Crisis, especially; I have an informal "DC PhD", so to speak, so there's not much I don't know about, but the average person reading Final Crisis wouldn't have a chance in hell of following it. It's the most NON-New Reader Friendly thing I've ever seen. It's not that Final Crisis doesn't make sense; it DOES make sense, and once it does, it's actually pretty brilliant, but it takes serious WORK on the reader's part and that right there is why it didn't sell and killed the line off, "requiring" the New 52 reboot.

To this day, I can't help but wonder where we'd be if Geoff Johns had written Final Crisis, and Morrison only consulted on it. For better or worse, Johns is the writer with the more "populist" style; his FC may not have been "better", but at the very least every single person who read it would know exactly what was going on. When the book's biggest criticism is, "It's impossible to understand", and its failure tanked the entire line... well, I don't have a time machine, but I simply can't help but ponder, "What if...?"

But yeah... Grant and Geoff, Geoff and Grant. Two guys whose work I greatly enjoy but won't hesitate to pick apart. They've each written some of the absolutely most brilliant AND most "WTF?!" stories I've ever read. Neither one is my all-time favorite, but if their name is on a book, I'm probably going to at least read it. Some people vilify them, others put them on a golden pedestal. All said... I'm glad they're around.

They both could use a good smack once in a while, though.

[Andrew NDB]

Final Crisis is an interesting thing. On the one hand, it's a bit of a litmus test for comic book readers... on the other, it's sort of pointless. Grant Morrison was asked to write a big, loud, dumb "Infinite Crisis" kind of spectacle. He's not the guy you pick to do that... because he's not going to want to.

Fun fact: Didio meant for Morrison's Final Crisis to be a Flashpoint-style full reboot. It wasn't until fairly far into Morrison's writing that Didio was convinced out of it and Morrison had to revise everything.

[Leo656]

I don't care much for DiDio. He seems to have no vision whatsoever besides money and is entirely reactionary. The Mike Carlin Era was DC's true Modern Golden Age, in my opinion. Things were so tight when him and Dooley and Denny were running the show. Not so much after.

Y'know, at first, I thought Grant would have been perfect for a story like Final Crisis, on account of his... "interesting" way of thinking, but when I read it, I can't deny that it's nothing at all like what I expected him to produce.

Dan Jurgens would'a done fine. He's generally pretty good at those. Zero Hour turned out good, and Armageddon 2001 wasn't his fault.

[Krutch]

It also maaaay be the artist side of things. You'll never see Geoff Johns not hiding behind an A-list artist with the best colorists -- no matter what, a Geoff Johns comic will always look really, really good. Which he ensures.

Grant Morrison doesn't hide behind A-list artists. I mean, he's worked with some great ones but mostly he partners up with artists as eclectic as he is who can best execute his scripts/notes.I feel I've asked this comparison question before, but... You're in film - wouldn't you want your work to look it's best? I don't hear anyone complaining that A-List directors only work with the top DPs and art teams and A-list actors. I don't really understand how you can knock someone for it wanting their work to look it's best. Unless it's coming from a place of "Give some lesser-knowns a chance!" kind of mentality. In which case you're still left with a product that won't look as "pleasing" to the casual market, and now you've alienated a large portion of people who would have otherwised took a chance on your work.

Plus, you run the risk of looking like you're just giving your friends a big pay check for putting them at a top level title when their skills aren't quite up to snuff. I remember when Kevin Smith did Batman: Cacophony and everyone complained the art was crap and Walt Flannigan is only working on a Batman title because his buddy Kevin pushed for him.

I guess I'm just confused where you're perspective is coming from, because knocking a creative artist for wanting their stuff to look it's best seems... strange. Especially considering your background as a filmmaker.

Lots of comic book readers think Grant Morrison is a certified genius, but Grant Morrison is 100% certain of it. :trazz:
Yup. What was that quote he made about Moore? Something like "Moore thinks he's great because he put out Watchmen. I put out a Watchmen every week." :roll:

And since I'm a Superman fan, everyone insists that I must love All-Star Superman, and people are forever gushing about how it's "The Greatest Superman Comic Ever made." You know who says that? People who NEVER read a Superman comic, then read that one, and said "Oh, okay, this is fine." I personally think that book is "Okay" but f*cking masturbatory as hell. I'm happy to hear we're on the same page with All Star Superman. It's by no means bad - there's parts that are quite brilliant. The Goth Girl one-page is perfect enough to be framed. Ditto with the one-page origin. But Superman himself just always felt so... distant and alien.

And I tell ya, I SWEAR sometimes the man is just being weird for the sake of being weird; just to see how far people will "allow" him to push things.Ever read The Filth? :lol:

I have to say that reading comics shouldn't require so much "homework".100 percent this.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't care much for DiDio. He seems to have no vision whatsoever besides money and is entirely reactionary. The Mike Carlin Era was DC's true Modern Golden Age, in my opinion. Things were so tight when him and Dooley and Denny were running the show. Not so much after.

Didio is the worst. The Carlin/Dooley/Denny days may have given way to 90s... provocativism at times... but it was always a tight ship. You knew what was going on. There was plenty of intimate "one and done" issues, and character stuff was encouraged. Now everything is lawless. It's like Star Wars. "Regional governors given supreme authority," no overriding authority with any sort of vision, or any such thing even caring to do so. And everything on any comic is 5 issue arcs with "mini-events" bleeding into the next.

Y'know, at first, I thought Grant would have been perfect for a story like Final Crisis, on account of his... "interesting" way of thinking, but when I read it, I can't deny that it's nothing at all like what I expected him to produce.

I wasn't surprised at all, but then remember that whatever original vision he had and was mid-way into was cannibalized when Didio came back and said, "WAIT, Grant! Stop the presses! It isn't a reboot anymore! Just kinda... have it be a medium victory against Darkseid!"

Grant is a guy you pick when you want a lot of players (he knows how to utilize everyone) and some kind of mass-scale smart... eh, Ocean's 11-style event. Not "Crisis on Infinite Earths Part 2," with tons of fights and energy beams and death and stuff. It's just not in him. Even the biggest, best loved arcs in JLA weren't that.

"Seven Soldiers" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Soldiers) is one of his best works that I love beyond the JLA stuff.

Dan Jurgens would'a done fine. He's generally pretty good at those. Zero Hour turned out good, and Armageddon 2001 wasn't his fault.

Jurgens is a great guy. I can't fault him. His stuff is never super deep or multi-layered, but what he does he does well. I was sad when they cancelled the last volume of "Booster Gold" just because of Flashpoint. If anything, it should have continued, with Booster as an oddity, the only survivor of the pre-reboot stuff. Sales were fine. Guess Didio and Geoff didn't want that.

I feel I've asked this comparison question before, but... You're in film - wouldn't you want your work to look it's best? I don't hear anyone complaining that A-List directors only work with the top DPs and art teams and A-list actors. I don't really understand how you can knock someone for it wanting their work to look it's best. Unless it's coming from a place of "Give some lesser-knowns a chance!" kind of mentality. In which case you're still left with a product that won't look as "pleasing" to the casual market, and now you've alienated a large portion of people who would have otherwised took a chance on your work.

Plus, you run the risk of looking like you're just giving your friends a big pay check for putting them at a top level title when their skills aren't quite up to snuff. I remember when Kevin Smith did Batman: Cacophony and everyone complained the art was crap and Walt Flannigan is only working on a Batman title because his buddy Kevin pushed for him.

I guess I'm just confused where you're perspective is coming from, because knocking a creative artist for wanting their stuff to look it's best seems... strange. Especially considering your background as a filmmaker.

Well, you're not wrong. My point is only, a guy like Grant isn't interested in hiring whose art looks the most like cutting edge, eye-pleasing height-of-Image stuff. He could. He could bully and get that. He doesn't. He wants artists he can work with best that can best execute his vision. Geoff? He doesn't. He knows his scripts are flimsy so he insists on only A-list artists to make his stuff float. It's a matter of craft. Morrison isn't going to slum it with an amateur artist, but he's going to take someone who can pull off (as one example) a good Kirby-esque take over someone that might help him sell 2,000 extra copies just because that's the way the public is right now.

I'd love to read "Green Lantern: Rebirth" with a C-list artist. Or like, reputable artists but ones that aren't "hip." Klaus Janson or something. Let's see how that "Big return of Hal Jordan!" would have been heralded.

Yup. What was that quote he made about Moore? Something like "Moore thinks he's great because he put out Watchmen. I put out a Watchmen every week." :roll:

Well... he's not really wrong. The difference is probably that Morrison used to do a lot of hardcore drugs and Moore... never really stopped that. But man, I love me some old school Moore stuff. Moore right now, though, is part of the Frank Miller club: angry, bitter, codger country.

[Avenger]

I bought the first volume of GL Kyle Rayner, back in 1994. This is my review with spoilers:

It contains GREEN LANTERN #48-57, GREEN LANTERN #0 (Zero Hour), NEW TITANS #116-117 and R.E.B.E.L.S. #1.

I wanted to get book for a while. #48-50 is the Emerald Twilight storyline, whrere Hal Jordan turns on the Guardian and the Corps. In 2018, it's weird to see a storyline that big to be settled in 3 issues.

For me, it's now easier to see the retcon done by Geoff Johns about Parallax taking over Hal Jordan. In that story, there is no clue that something is controlling Hal. He just lost it after the Guardians stopped him to recreate Coast City.

All the issues were good, and some were great: the team-up with Superman, the meeting with Allan Scott and the confrontation with Hal Jordan.

I think I saw more different constructs whit Kyle in 10 issues than with Hal during all of Geoff John's run.

I started to read comic book about six years ago, and I read a lot of big "blockbusters" comic events like Marvel's Civil War, Secret Invasion, AvX or GL storylines likes Sinestro Corps War or Blackest Night, so I'm aware I have to adapt my expectations when I read something older like this. It's fun to watch a story where the universe is not going to explode every two issues.

In New 52 "New Guardians", It was showed that Kyle and Ganthet had a father/son relationship. I hope I'll see more of that is further issues. Their first meeting lasted about 15 seconds.

Vol 2 is already available, and Volume 3 will be available in January 2019.

[MikeandRaph87]

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2018/07/09/grant-morrison-liam-sharp-green-lantern-san-diego-comic-con/

It looks like we will find out about Grant Morrison's Hal Jordan Green Lantern title at SDCC. The title could rest one monrh and launch in October.

[ZariusTwo]

Grant Morrison's run has been officially announced today

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/07/19/the-green-lantern-relaunch-by-grant-morrison-and-liam-sharp-focuses-on-hal-jordans-life-as-a-space-cop

[Andrew NDB]

Grant Morrison's run has been officially announced today

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/07/19/the-green-lantern-relaunch-by-grant-morrison-and-liam-sharp-focuses-on-hal-jordans-life-as-a-space-cop

Damn, Morrison is just writing Hal Jordan... it'll still be aces, though.

[MikeandRaph87]

What is the expected release date, October?

[Andrew NDB]

What is the expected release date, October?

Probably as good of a guess as any.

[MikeandRaph87]

I got my answer. November according to this article.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/hal-jordan-returns-to-space-cop-duties-in-grant-morriso-1827721600/amp

[Avenger]

Probably as good of a guess as any.

I thought about you when I read this about the future Green Lantern Corp movie:

http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/07/22/green-lantern-corps-geoff-johns-complete-reimagining/

It was demonstrated here that Geoff Johns did a "blockbuster" work on GL (one big even after the other) , so I guess this is good to reach casual superhero fans who don't necessarily know much about GL.

I know he worked on the 2011 movie but I hope this time the result will be more satisfying.

[MikeandRaph87]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbr.com/green-lanterns-final-issue-hal-jordan-cyborg-superman-coast-city/amp/

Not keeping up with a non-Hal Jordan title, but I saw this on my feed. Hal Jordan faces Cyborg Superman once again. This time on the 25th publication anniversary of Coast City's destruction. Battle sight of course is the rebuilt city. This is interesting and I hope it is a ghost that can be put to rest.

Speaking of beating ghost, it seems like the Xanshi accident is being used as a crutch for the Ultraviolet Corps plot. John beat that ghost and was forgiven during Blackest Night.

[MikeandRaph87]

What are we supposed to take away from Tomar Tu realizing he was going the wrong way about honoring his father so he commits suicide? It was needless and sends a bad message!

General Zod blames Tomar Re for Krypton's end? I do not see the connection there. You cannot stop every single problem in a sector. :trazz:

Let's see Hal and Carol's relationship actually develop! Knowing DC though...

[MikeandRaph87]

Looks like Kyle Raynercould meet his maker on September 26th in Heroes In Crisis#1. I call this Identity Crisis 2.0. Also, it looks like another Morrison leaguer could die in Wally West. I dont care if Kyle lives or temporarily dies, but Wally was unfairly sidelined when Barry returned after 22 years and unlike Kyle was never given a role to fill to share some of the spotlight like Kyle was still able to.
http://comicbook.com/dc/amp/2018/08/14/did-dc-accidentally-reveal-which-hero-will-die-soon-/

[MikeandRaph87]

https://amp.newsarama.com/41742-grant-morrison-to-turn-green-lantern-ring-into-magical-wishing-ring.html


Power Rings are magicial wishing rings.

[neatoman]

Well, the Alan Scott version was meant to draw parallels with the Aladdin story, so I'm not exactly baffled by this decision. Hell, the Aladdin parallels even carry over to the Corps version, that's where the Ring and Lantern come from in the first place.

[Andrew NDB]

https://amp.newsarama.com/41742-grant-morrison-to-turn-green-lantern-ring-into-magical-wishing-ring.html


Power Rings are magicial wishing rings.

FAKE news. Morrison is literally reciting what power rings have always done since the 1960s, not suggesting there is new powers. If you read 3 or 4 comics before the Geoff Johns age you would understand.

Morrison making Green Lantern his thing in 2018 is literally the best thing to happen to Green Lantern since 1994.

[MikeandRaph87]

I never knew of Aladdin parallels of course the Scott Weinger/Robin Williams Disney version is what dominates my knowledge and may deter one source's inspiration of another since I am not nearly as familar outside of the 1992 film which is 51 years after Alan Scott's debut.


I am definitely open to what Grant has planned. Looking forward to it.

Andrew, you hate Geoff Johns as much as I hate Dan Didio or Zarius hates Dan Slott!

[Avenger]

I never knew of Aladdin parallels of course the Scott Weinger/Robin Williams Disney version is what dominates my knowledge and may deter one source's inspiration of another since I am not nearly as familar outside of the 1992 film which is 51 years after Alan Scott's debut.


I am definitely open to what Grant has planned. Looking forward to it.

Andrew, you hate Geoff Johns as much as I hate Dan Didio or Zarius hates Dan Slott!

Maybe he hates Geoff Johns, but we can't deny the impact of Geoff Johns on the GL universe in term of popularity. It brought many new readers (myself included) that will continue to follow the GL universe and will learn about past titles and events.

We had 4 GL titles during New 52 (+ Sinestro & Larfleeze). For Rebirth we had 2 titles and now we will probably have only one. I didn't read much Grant Morisson's stuff but I hope I will like him on GL.

I took my distance from the GL universe after buying volume 6 (godhead issues) because I was frustrated to again only a part of an event. I bought volumes 7 & 8 a few days ago so I finally finished New 52.

[MikeandRaph87]

Most of my Hal Jordan reading has been either GL: Rebirth and beyond or the issues he partook throughout thr entireity of the JL of A satelitte era (which I own like the Hal lead titles Rebirth and beyond). However, I have read a few issues here and there like the first several stories featuring Hal, key search for America issues with Green Arrow, and the stuff with the revived title reestablishing Hal at Ferris Air and with Carol. For a long time I wondered where Evergreen City and the difting came about. I found my answer in an article today.
https://www.cbr.com/green-lantern-carol-ferris-secret-identity/amp/

[Andrew NDB]

Most of my Hal Jordan reading has been either GL: Rebirth and beyond or the issues he partook throughout thr entireity of the JL of A satelitte era

I'm sorry. And "the satellite era of JL"? They had a satellite station since the 60s... nothing new.

[MikeandRaph87]

I'm sorry. And "the satellite era of JL"? They had a satellite station since the 60s... nothing new.

Sorry about what? I enjoy both runs for the most part. I own every issue of my favorite era of the Justice League, the satelilitte era. The satellitte era is 1970 to 1984. You are thinking about the moonbase in addition to that from the Magificent Seven era (1997-2006) as well as other bases. I am talking about the run that is labeled the satellitte era.

[Avenger]

I just bought the first five volumes of the rebirth serie (Hal Jordan and the GLC), and I have to say I had a very good time.

The focus is mostly on Hal (of course) but also on the 3 other human lanterns. It is much more interesting than having each one of them working alone in their own serie. For me, this is near perfection in term of casting and interaction.

At first I wasn't sure to like Robert Venditti on GL, but now I can say it will remain as one of my favorite run. (unless the 2 last volumes are very bad)

I recommand it to anyone wanting to have a good time reading Green Lantern.

Before I can read Grant Morisson's run, I'll probably continue with the serie Simon Baz/Jessican Cruz, and the 90's Kyle Rayner serie.

[MikeandRaph87]

Morrison explains "The" of The Green Lantern title.

https://www.cbr.com/why-grant-morrison-comic-is-called-the-green-lantern/amp/

[IMJ]

I've got a modest GL run spanning the early Silver Age books up until the new 52 relaunch where I gave up. I thought the Sinestro Corps War was terrific, but after that the Rainbow Corps thing lost me a bit - I didn't hate the concept, but by Blackest Night it ran thin and never got me back.

I love the Silver Age books for the keys, but for me the best era of GL was basically the volume three era drawn by Mark Bright. I've got a slabbed GL v2 #7 which was a helluva steal at the time - 1st Sinestro. All of my other GL books are just bagged and boarded - Silver through Bronze in Mylite 2's with Gerber boards.

[MikeandRaph87]

This is an interesting bit of Green Lantern history.
https://www.cbr.com/hal-jordan-green-lantern-name-coined/amp/

Props to you for not sticking to a particular hero Avenger. If Hal is not involved I have no interest aside from John being a part of an ensemble cast or playing back up to Hal Jordan.

I do wonder what started the instability with Hal Jordan behind-the-scenes which does seem ignored. What I mean is Hal inspired by Barry's happiness with Iris planned to propose to Carol, but playing hero caused him to be absent thus lose her. Not being able to deal with he had at least three unrelated jobs in three different places outside of Coast City. This lasted from 1969 to 1979, an entire decade.

[Avenger]

This is an interesting bit of Green Lantern history.
https://www.cbr.com/hal-jordan-green-lantern-name-coined/amp/

Props to you for not sticking to a particular hero Avenger. If Hal is not involved I have no interest aside from John being a part of an ensemble cast or playing back up to Hal Jordan.

I do wonder what started the instability with Hal Jordan behind-the-scenes which does seem ignored. What I mean is Hal inspired by Barry's happiness with Iris planned to propose to Carol, but playing hero caused him to be absent thus lose her. Not being able to deal with he had at least three unrelated jobs in three different places outside of Coast City. This lasted from 1969 to 1979, an entire decade.

I think ANY green lantern could have job stability issue when you have to leave in space for weeks. Maybe they insisted on Hal for that particular point because it's part of his gimmick but it could apply to anyone.

For the loving part, leaving earth for weeks is no worse than living the country for weeks as military. Again, this is part of Hal's character who can't get his life together.

The articles you provide here are interesting. I sometime search on the web for "green lantern vs star wars" or other stuff like that, but it's fun to have someone bringing some news or stories.

[MikeandRaph87]

I think ANY green lantern could have job stability issue when you have to leave in space for weeks. Maybe they insisted on Hal for that particular point because it's part of his gimmick but it could apply to anyone.

For the loving part, leaving earth for weeks is no worse than living the country for weeks as military. Again, this is part of Hal's character who can't get his life together.

The articles you provide here are interesting. I sometime search on the web for "green lantern vs star wars" or other stuff like that, but it's fun to have someone bringing some news or stories.

I think it became a part of Hal over time. Perhaps sales were low for Green Lantern compared to The Flash which is why Hal wondered for a decade and lost Carol. Parts of it were succezsful such as the Discovering America with Ollie angle though like Englehart's Detective Comics and JL of A runs were appreciated retroactively not while on the spinner rack. Hal was not the test pilot who dated his childhood crush turned boss like current mythos would suggest.

I get recommended articles on my Android feed. Here is another one.
https://www.cbr.com/green-lantern-earth/amp/

Tomorrow ends an era as Hal meets Cyborg Superman over Coast City on the publisging 25th abniversary of Coast City's drstruction. Like John Stewart ans Xanshi, the destructiin of Coast City needs to be put behind the character.

Will the return of Oa be explained or will Morrision pick and choose what is in conti uity in his space police procedural?

[Andrew NDB]

This is an interesting bit of Green Lantern history.
https://www.cbr.com/hal-jordan-green-lantern-name-coined/amp/

Props to you for not sticking to a particular hero Avenger. If Hal is not involved I have no interest aside from John being a part of an ensemble cast or playing back up to Hal Jordan.

I do wonder what started the instability with Hal Jordan behind-the-scenes which does seem ignored. What I mean is Hal inspired by Barry's happiness with Iris planned to propose to Carol, but playing hero caused him to be absent thus lose her. Not being able to deal with he had at least three unrelated jobs in three different places outside of Coast City. This lasted from 1969 to 1979, an entire decade.

Oh, Hal is a mess. Geoff wants you to believe he's Maverick from Top Gun, womanizer extraordinaire... but the reality is he was always in long term relationships or pining over one woman, crying all the time and super emotional.

[MikeandRaph87]

Oh, Hal is a mess. Geoff wants you to believe he's Maverick from Top Gun, womanizer extraordinaire... but the reality is he was always in long term relationships or pining over one woman, crying all the time and super emotional.

I always saw him as childhood sweethearts with Carol, but Hal's dedication to his duty as Green Lantern prevents happiness, like how Bruce's dedication to protecting Gotham prevents his. I know he dated others, but did not stick the way Carol did. Hal even gave up his green lantern identity for her for 2 and half years in the mid 80s giving John Stewart the mantle. Eve Doremus, Jill Pearlman,Olivia Reynolds, the ackward flirtation with Arisia and ackward flirtation with Powergirl may give people the idea of him being a player, but its more of the one thing that holds Hal hostage his rentlentless dedication to his heroic duty not even fear of commitment. GLs are not suppposed to have fear let alone of committment.

[Avenger]

Hal was not the test pilot who dated his childhood crush turned boss like current mythos would suggest.

Oh, Hal is a mess. Geoff wants you to believe he's Maverick from Top Gun, womanizer extraordinaire... but the reality is he was always in long term relationships or pining over one woman, crying all the time and super emotional.


My question would be: So what?

Geoff made Hal this way, but it is just another writer. In 15 years, maybe we'll have another "all new super duper secret origins" and we'll learn that Hal always hesitated with Carol because deep down he's gay, or whatever else.

Hal Jordan from Earth 1 is different; maybe one day this version will retcon the womanizer. The good news are: you still can read your old comics and enjoy it. It won't disapear because a retcon happened.

Comparing Green Lantern today vs 1972 is like comparing Batman today vs the Super Friends era. The culture is different, the readers are different. I think this is no use to be angry because a character's version is different from writer to writer.

We're suppose to talk how much we like green Lantern and why, not playing at "my favorite version is better than your's"

[IMJ]

We're suppose to talk how much we like green Lantern and why, not playing at "my favorite version is better than your's"

Well, on that point I think those kinds of conversations are woven into the fabric of superhero fandom. I've had a bit of an Iron Man hobby since I was a kid. The character version that I subscribe to the most starts with Layton and Michelinie, spans John Byrne's stuff and dovetails into Len Kaminki's run. And then after that I felt really lucky to have Kurt Busiek write as amazing an Iron Man run as he pumped out.

Fast forward 8 years after Busiek and now modern fans think that Matt Fraction's run was some kind of defining set of books. But in fact I'd argue day and night about how awful that run was, that it was some of the worst Iron Man ever, and that it took what Downey did with a snarkey Stark and turned it into a much declining character parody without much else going on month to month. Fraction's Iron Man is one of the character's lows that hardcore fans tend to hate on.

From Busiek to Fraction is two completely different Iron Man characters.

The same goes with GL. You start off by wanting to see a guy with a cool power set kicking some ass, but then someone writes a definitive story of some kind and you realize that those depths are a character pattern that you subscribe to. When a new writer basically ***** on that, as a long term fan it grates.

[Avenger]

Well, on that point I think those kinds of conversations are woven into the fabric of superhero fandom. I've had a bit of an Iron Man hobby since I was a kid. The character version that I subscribe to the most starts with Layton and Michelinie, spans John Byrne's stuff and dovetails into Len Kaminki's run. And then after that I felt really lucky to have Kurt Busiek write as amazing an Iron Man run as he pumped out.

Fast forward 8 years after Busiek and now modern fans think that Matt Fraction's run was some kind of defining set of books. But in fact I'd argue day and night about how awful that run was, that it was some of the worst Iron Man ever, and that it took what Downey did with a snarkey Stark and turned it into a much declining character parody without much else going on month to month. Fraction's Iron Man is one of the character's lows that hardcore fans tend to hate on.

From Busiek to Fraction is two completely different Iron Man characters.

The same goes with GL. You start off by wanting to see a guy with a cool power set kicking some ass, but then someone writes a definitive story of some kind and you realize that those depths are a character pattern that you subscribe to. When a new writer basically ***** on that, as a long term fan it grates.

Well, you're right. This a forum, so it is good to debate which version we consider the best.

Maybe I didn't write it the good way, but my problem is more about "my favorite version is better than your's so you're not a true fan because you don't like my version"

I consider you're as much an Ironman's fan as the next guy who like Matt Fraction's run, and vice-versa.

[MikeandRaph87]

Hal defeated Cyborg Superman with a little help from friends, generic alien green lanterns. It unfortunately was not a final defeat as Henshaw vanished. Poor mom and son too.

So Oa was being quietly reconstructed which is why it was mentioned in the solicit for Morrision's upcoming run. Comic book logic. Whatever.

[Andrew NDB]

So Oa was being quietly reconstructed

Reconstructed... again.

Here's a little article I did a short while back:
http://thegreenlanterncorps.com/top-10-biggest-moments-from-ron-marz-green-lantern-run/

[Avenger]

So, did anyone had the chance to read the Grant Morrisson's issues?

Did you like it? Is that very different from previous writers?

[MikeandRaph87]

So, did anyone had the chance to read the Grant Morrisson's issues?

Did you like it? Is that very different from previous writers?

One thing I did not like was how Hal seemed to have a one night stand so soon after rushing to Carol's home. DC may want you to think he goes from woman to woman like in the Flash and Green Lantern mini-series Mark Waid did,but Hal and Carol have been romantically linked since childhood. The first issue felt like it was from the 1970s', the decade period Hal spent away form Ferris Air and did different careers. We get Evil Star for the first time since 1995 Evil Star has factored into a storyline beyond a couple of background appearances. That is refreshing to see him dusted it off as it one of a few that Johns and others ignored. Murder Mystery? Infiltrating the Darkstars? I can understand now why Kanjar Ro was not used, but a stand-in of his race as Hal seems to kill him. Hal himself is not a murderer even when he accidentally kills Krona so it must be the moment that Grant referred to when he says there is something that will be followed up on that happens early and is more to it than meets the eye. The art is initially going to be hard to adjust to as it has been so consistent since 2004's Green Lantern Rebirth. while it may not be Ethan can Sciver or Ian Reis their art was the template that others used. I am keeping an open mind.

[Andrew NDB]

One thing I did not like was how Hal seemed to have a one night stand so soon after rushing to Carol's home. DC may want you to think he goes from woman to woman like in the Flash and Green Lantern mini-series Mark Waid did,but Hal and Carol have been romantically linked since childhood. The first issue felt like it was from the 1970s', the decade period Hal spent away form Ferris Air and did different careers. We get Evil Star for the first time since 1995 Evil Star has factored into a storyline beyond a couple of background appearances. That is refreshing to see him dusted it off as it one of a few that Johns and others ignored. Murder Mystery? Infiltrating the Darkstars? I can understand now why Kanjar Ro was not used, but a stand-in of his race as Hal seems to kill him. Hal himself is not a murderer even when he accidentally kills Krona so it must be the moment that Grant referred to when he says there is something that will be followed up on that happens early and is more to it than meets the eye. The art is initially going to be hard to adjust to as it has been so consistent since 2004's Green Lantern Rebirth. while it may not be Ethan can Sciver or Ian Reis their art was the template that others used. I am keeping an open mind.

Almost all of what you just said is wrong.

[Avenger]

One thing I did not like was how Hal seemed to have a one night stand so soon after rushing to Carol's home. DC may want you to think he goes from woman to woman like in the Flash and Green Lantern mini-series Mark Waid did,but Hal and Carol have been romantically linked since childhood. The first issue felt like it was from the 1970s', the decade period Hal spent away form Ferris Air and did different careers. We get Evil Star for the first time since 1995 Evil Star has factored into a storyline beyond a couple of background appearances. That is refreshing to see him dusted it off as it one of a few that Johns and others ignored. Murder Mystery? Infiltrating the Darkstars? I can understand now why Kanjar Ro was not used, but a stand-in of his race as Hal seems to kill him. Hal himself is not a murderer even when he accidentally kills Krona so it must be the moment that Grant referred to when he says there is something that will be followed up on that happens early and is more to it than meets the eye. The art is initially going to be hard to adjust to as it has been so consistent since 2004's Green Lantern Rebirth. while it may not be Ethan can Sciver or Ian Reis their art was the template that others used. I am keeping an open mind.

Sorry. I read the first lines and I stopped because you're describing what is happening in those issues, and I want ro keep the surprise. I should have specified I didn't read it yet. However, my feeling is that... you didn't like it much?

[MikeandRaph87]

Sorry. I read the first lines and I stopped because you're describing what is happening in those issues, and I want ro keep the surprise. I should have specified I didn't read it yet. However, my feeling is that... you didn't like it much?

Mixed opinion overall. I need to read through Morrison's 12th issue of The Green Lantern before I have an overall opinion that will stick.

[MikeandRaph87]

Almost all of what you just said is wrong.

I know you are a huge Green Lantern fan that hates Hal Jordan. I don't know what was wrong in the opinion part of my reply. As for the facts Evil Star had not been used for two dozen years for the most part and there has been a certain look to the art that has remained consistent.

[Andrew NDB]

I know you are a huge Green Lantern fan that hates Hal Jordan. I don't know what was wrong in the opinion part of my reply. As for the facts Evil Star had not been used for two dozen years for the most part and there has been a certain look to the art that has remained consistent.

Evil Star DID appear in early Geoff Johns Vol. 4 stuff, being dissected by some mystery alien race. He completely forgot/lost interest in the side story and abandoned it. Prior to Geoff Johns Hal Jordan DID have lots of relationships with women other than Carol Ferris.

[MikeandRaph87]

Evil Star DID appear in early Geoff Johns Vol. 4 stuff, being dissected by some mystery alien race. He completely forgot/lost interest in the side story and abandoned it. Prior to Geoff Johns Hal Jordan DID have lots of relationships with women other than Carol Ferris.

Sure in the 69-'79 timeframe as was touched on in Brave and The Bold: Flash and Green Lantern mini. Hal had at least two serious relationships and there was flirtations with Guy's ex and Arisia. Not to mention Jill Pearlman serving as competition for awhile. Hal always went back to Carol and carried a torch for his true love. It just seems like after Johns last issue stating they would end up together while Vendetti also finished Green Lantern with thrm embracing its weird to see Hal with a random blonde.

As for Evil Star, I know he was mentioned in #4-#6 with the german speaking Gremlins that experimented on Hector, The Shark, and Black Hand. However, I do not remember him appearing. I know he was referred to during the period Hal had the emerald gauntlet, but did not appear. That was one of the few disappointments of Johns run, Sonar, Goldface, Shark, Evil Star, and Dr. Polaris did not factor in.

[ZariusTwo]

Prior to Geoff Johns Hal Jordan DID have lots of relationships with women other than Carol Ferris.

This is something Morrison is trying to get back to in his run

[Leo656]

Poor Hal's been, like, eight different people in his lifetime. :lol:

In my head, I guess I always reconciled it as, "He ultimately loves Carol best, but lacks the emotional maturity to commit to a steady relationship with her or anyone." Seems consistent with guys in his line of work.

Otherwise, it's like the writers just don't communicate. :trazz:

Hmmm... come to think of it... now that my books are out of storage, It's sure been a while since I had me some'a that "Emerald Dawn"........

[2K3]

Grew up with Kyle Rayner as sole GL. These days more of a fan of John Stewart.

Geoff Johns' run is what really got me into Green Lantern comics. After the run however, re-reading it, it's a shame characters like Cowgirl disappeared halfway through and elements pre-emotional spectrum never got explored more (such as General Stone's Hangar 44) plus I wish certain Earth-base GL Villains appeared more (outside of Hector Hammond and Black Hand) such as Tattooed Man, Sonar and Dr. Polaris.

[MikeandRaph87]

Grew up with Kyle Rayner as sole GL. These days more of a fan of John Stewart.

Geoff Johns' run is what really got me into Green Lantern comics. After the run however, re-reading it, it's a shame characters like Cowgirl disappeared halfway through and elements pre-emotional spectrum never got explored more (such as General Stone's Hangar 44) plus I wish certain Earth-base GL Villains appeared more (outside of Hector Hammond and Black Hand) such as Tattooed Man, Sonar and Dr. Polaris.

That is my biggest complaint. If they did not figure into the emotional spectrum they are left out. There was the tease in the very early issues,but nothing became of it. Curious to see what will be done with Evil Star after all this wait.

Also, props for remembering Hanger 44! Also, General Stone knew Hal's identity so I was curious how that would be played. As for Jill "Cowgirl" Pearlman, she was a plot device wirhout any sense of permanance.

[MikeandRaph87]

Emerald Dawn got a shout out in Jeopardy tonight in category titled Emeralds.

[Leo656]

Neat. I much prefer both Emerald Dawns over any of the GL origins that we've had since.

"Don't fix what ain't broke", as they say.

[MikeandRaph87]

Neat. I much prefer both Emerald Dawns over any of the GL origins that we've had since.

"Don't fix what ain't broke", as they say.

To each their own I suppose. I never like the idea of Hal getting a DUI ahead of gaining the green lantern mantle. Secret Origin is solid. I just wish despite the expansion of the mythos that the earth based villains would have been included beyond teases to not at all.

Still it was cool seeing "this colorful hero's beginning's were told in a tale worthy of trade paperback" or something to that effect.

[MikeandRaph87]

So is Starbreaker, the cosmic vampire from JLA#96-99 that plagued the JLA and Adam Strange making a comeback or is this is his newly revealed daughter in The Green Lantern#4? In the previous issue at the auction,Agamemno could be seen for the first time outside the little known mini-series gem. Are these two big level threats isolated to one story-line making a comeback?

[MikeandRaph87]

https://www.cbr.com/green-lantern-itty-supporting-cast/

Here is an interesting article about Itty.

[Avenger]

https://www.cbr.com/green-lantern-itty-supporting-cast/

Here is an interesting article about Itty.


I saw some of your topics and answers in other thread and I have to say, your comic knowledge at large impresses me.


I just bought another GL comic:

https://dynamic.indigoimages.ca/books/1401277500.jpg?altimages=false&scaleup=true&maxheight=515&width=380&quality=85&sale=20&lang=en

I haven't finished yet, but it's interesting. The behavior of the Guy Gardner we know seem considered as "brain damaged".

[MikeandRaph87]

I saw some of your topics and answers in other thread and I have to say, your comic knowledge at large impresses me.


I just bought another GL comic:

https://dynamic.indigoimages.ca/books/1401277500.jpg?altimages=false&scaleup=true&maxheight=515&width=380&quality=85&sale=20&lang=en

I haven't finished yet, but it's interesting. The behavior of the Guy Gardner we know seem considered as "brain damaged".

Just answered you elsewhere. I can say that I know a lot about a little. I prefer it be know a little about a lot. I appreciate it!

[MikeandRaph87]

The Green Lantern#12 was confusing. So Qwa-Man is Hal Jordan of the Anti-Matter Universe? Aside from the same hair color what makes them the same? This Qwa-Man character is basically Cyborg Superman? Qwa as in Qward? Also, I thought Hal defeated Controller Mu and the mission was over? Suddenly, he is pulled back in by Mu who is not dead and they do not know that he is under deep cover following Mu's defeat?

Also, when did The Darkstars get renamed The Black Stars?

[2K3]

The Green Lantern#12 was confusing. So Qwa-Man is Hal Jordan of the Anti-Matter Universe? Aside from the same hair color what makes them the same? This Qwa-Man character is basically Cyborg Superman? Qwa as in Qward? Also, I thought Hal defeated Controller Mu and the mission was over? Suddenly, he is pulled back in by Mu who is not dead and they do not know that he is under deep cover following Mu's defeat?

Also, when did The Darkstars get renamed The Black Stars?

I've always find it weird when Grant Morrison takes an Silver Age concept and turns it on it's head when modernizing it (Batman's "Club of Heroes" is a good example of that).

Don't get me wrong, I love Morrison (he got me into JLA), but every so often he makes something that takes me YEARS to understand (Seven Soldiers/ Final Crisis/ Multiversity are prime examples).

[MikeandRaph87]

I decided to look into signs of Hal Jordan's downfall. Hal Jordan had some trouble carrying a book throughout his first run as Green Lantern which caused him to lose Carol and drift from job to job. The title could not be saved with Green Arrow being brought in to share the headline. It is a solid example of a classic run only in the rearview mirror and did not get the attention the time of the publication as it would later. Green Lantern then becomes the backup feature to Flash for four years. Upon his title being dusted off including O'Neil as writer and Ollie as a featured character it would go on a couple of direction changes the next 12 years. One of which saw Hal removed as Green Lantern for 16 issues.

Hal gets streaks of gray hair it seems debuting in 1990's Green Lantern#1. Though it appears for the first 20 issues that spotlight ws shared with both John and Guy before both John and Guy both get their own minis which write them out. I noticed an odd foreshadowing of a place Hal spent only a brief time in, Evergreen City and the cover suggest what might happen to Coast City. Though there seems to be no indication in Gerad Jones's run to suggest Hal's going mad with grief. Coast City is destroyed in issue #46 and the story just seems to start out of the blue and in another larger story tied with another character at that. Would John have not been a better candidate to be Parallax or if a hero had to break bad?

Between Green Lantern volume two and three Katama Tui is killed and John accidently implodes Xashi as an indirect response. So its not without precedence, but why would John not have been vulnerable to snap? The star sapphire gem was the cause of Katma's death and a personal conflict with Hal. Then there is the destory planet. John would want to rewrite tragedies it would seem a few years before Hal's sudden fall. It's also interesting that Hal shared spotlight with John and alien Lanterns and then initially with John and Guy before Hal becomes the focus once more. Also, Guy nor John truly replaced Hal. If a new direction for the sake of sales is going to be mandated then why not John or Guy take the title?

It is also interesting to note that none of anyone that is important to Hal Jordan actually died when Coast City was wiped off the map. Hal's parents were already dead and his younger brother's family had relocated while Carol and Tom were outside the city. There is no one in particular that Hal actually lost. Also, while John had the personal loss a half dozen years prior Kilowag is the last of his race, like Superman his planet gone. Before Dick Grayson, Wally West, and others were screwed by DC editorial Hal Jordan was. I understand that Ron Marz, the new writer was given a mandate to create a new green lantern to fully replace Hal Jordan, but who actually came up with the idea of Coast City being blown up with no personal loss making a needless bloodbath? There is also Hal killing Kilowag and random green lanterns and weakening the Guardians.

I am sorry for the long post, I just did research and it seems it was an out of no where editorial mandate to dump Hal Jordan and replace him in the title. Also, it seems to be one of the earliest fan movements against creative decisions.

[oldmanwinters]

I decided to look into signs of Hal Jordan's downfall. Hal Jordan had some trouble carrying a book throughout his first run as Green Lantern which caused him to lose Carol and drift from job to job. The title could not be saved with Green Arrow being brought in to share the headline. It is a solid example of a classic run only in the rearview mirror and did not get the attention the time of the publication as it would later. Green Lantern then becomes the backup feature to Flash for four years. Upon his title being dusted off including O'Neil as writer and Ollie as a featured character it would go on a couple of direction changes the next 12 years. One of which saw Hal removed as Green Lantern for 16 issues.

Hal gets streaks of gray hair it seems debuting in 1990's Green Lantern#1. Though it appears for the first 20 issues that spotlight ws shared with both John and Guy before both John and Guy both get their own minis which write them out. I noticed an odd foreshadowing of a place Hal spent only a brief time in, Evergreen City and the cover suggest what might happen to Coast City. Though there seems to be no indication in Gerad Jones's run to suggest Hal's going mad with grief. Coast City is destroyed in issue #46 and the story just seems to start out of the blue and in another larger story tied with another character at that. Would John have not been a better candidate to be Parallax or if a hero had to break bad?

Between Green Lantern volume two and three Katama Tui is killed and John accidently implodes Xashi as an indirect response. So its not without precedence, but why would John not have been vulnerable to snap? The star sapphire gem was the cause of Katma's death and a personal conflict with Hal. Then there is the destory planet. John would want to rewrite tragedies it would seem a few years before Hal's sudden fall. It's also interesting that Hal shared spotlight with John and alien Lanterns and then initially with John and Guy before Hal becomes the focus once more. Also, Guy nor John truly replaced Hal. If a new direction for the sake of sales is going to be mandated then why not John or Guy take the title?

It is also interesting to note that none of anyone that is important to Hal Jordan actually died when Coast City was wiped off the map. Hal's parents were already dead and his younger brother's family had relocated while Carol and Tom were outside the city. There is no one in particular that Hal actually lost. Also, while John had the personal loss a half dozen years prior Kilowag is the last of his race, like Superman his planet gone. Before Dick Grayson, Wally West, and others were screwed by DC editorial Hal Jordan was. I understand that Ron Marz, the new writer was given a mandate to create a new green lantern to fully replace Hal Jordan, but who actually came up with the idea of Coast City being blown up with no personal loss making a needless bloodbath? There is also Hal killing Kilowag and random green lanterns and weakening the Guardians.

I am sorry for the long post, I just did research and it seems it was an out of no where editorial mandate to dump Hal Jordan and replace him in the title. Also, it seems to be one of the earliest fan movements against creative decisions.

I haven't read as many GL books from those eras, but I also thought it was bizzare for Jordan to just snag like that betweens issues 40-50.

[Leo656]

If you buy into the Geoff Johns retcon that Hal had been "influenced" by Parallax for years before that, it makes a bit more sense. Even without that, you could argue that the time he'd gone into the Central Power Battery messed with his mind.

The two Emerald Dawn mini-series had also established Hal as sort of a maverick who clashed with the Guardians and struggled with putting his personal needs aside. I know, Hal's personality post-Crisis was a bit of a retcon in itself, but the fact is Hal was generally a pretty boring white-bread character before they decided to give him a personality in the late-1980s. Not everyone was a fan of him suddenly having deep personality flaws, but it did serve to make him more interesting.

I'll be honest, I was always more of a casual GL fan... UNTIL Emerald Twilight. At the time, whenever I skimmed the GL books, Gardner was always the most dynamic and "real" of the various characters to bear the mantle, while Hal always came off as a smug prick. The whole bit with "Emerald Twilight" did sort of come off as rushed, but at the same time, that was the very first time I'd ever had any serious empathy for the character whatsoever. Even years before any retcons about "Parallax was inside of him all along, pushing him to act this way," I was a big fan of the whole "Doing the wrong things for the right reasons" angle they took with him. He wasn't a straight-up one-dimensional villain, and the fact that he'd always been so close to so many of the heroes made every single appearance of him as Parallax a big deal, at a time when creating compelling new villains was something DC was struggling with.

Hal fans don't generally like to hear this, but at that period of time Hal was simply more interesting - and useful - as an anti-hero than as Green Lantern. Kyle, Guy, and even John at that time all had more depth, personality, and were just all-around more dynamic. I mean, read the first dozen issues of Guy's solo book, and read the issues of Green Lantern starring Hal that were published around the same time; Guy's book was tons of fun and highly unconventional, whereas the GL books at that time were "fine" but nothing spectacular. Even the "Mosaic" book starring John Stewart had a lot more "heat", very briefly, than Hal's book did.

Brief side note, there was a BIT of connective tissue in an issue of Superman, where Superman held a vigil at Coast City with all the heroes in attendance, and Hal was in a notably foul mood. Granted, it wasn't much, but it was one of those things where if you were following the larger DCU at that time you'd see little seeds like that being planted that would pay off later in other books.

I understand that the heel turn may have hurt a lot of people's feelings, but put simply, Hal Jordan as a character had NEVER been more interesting. And furthermore, I think it did a lot to help set up the character's later "Rebirth" period. Everyone loves a good redemption story, but the "problem" is that you can't have a redemption arc unless the character is a real dick for a while, first. I was always "fine" with Hal Jordan, but the Rebirth series was where I finally became a "fan" of Hal Jordan. I'd developed a lot of empathy for the character across Emerald Twilight, Zero Hour, Final Night, etc., to the point where by the end of Rebirth I went from not caring if he came back to being GLAD he was back. He'd earned it, I felt. Before that, he was just the "Third-Most Interesting Green Lantern", to me. But he'd definitely gone on a very unique and personal journey from 1993 onward, and all of that made the character a ton more fun to read.

I've even turned a few people who hate super-hero comics on with the whole Parallax arc, point of fact. This one girl never even heard of Green Lantern, thought super-hero comics were kinda dumb, and I was like "There's one thing I think might be up your alley," so I floated her a stack of my books including Emerald Twilight, the first few Kyle issues, Zero Hour, Final Night, and finally Rebirth, and absent any prior knowledge or investment into the character she thought it was altogether an incredible Fall/Rise/Redemption storyline. I sincerely think the entire thing plays really well if a person doesn't have a strong nostalgic affection for Hal Jordan; then they can read the whole thing as what it's intended to be, rather than "my favorite character is being mishandled."

As for why it couldn't have been John Stewart instead, well... I do concede there's a way it COULD have worked. Mosaic even sort of teased it, a little bit, with Sinestro messing with him and whatnot. The thing is - and this might sound messed up on its face, but is in fact a very real factor into things such as this - they weren't going to take a reasonably popular black character and make them into a villain. That's the long and the short of it. Think about how a few years earlier, the TMNT cartoon turned Baxter into a white guy, because they were openly skittish about having a black character behave in a villainous manner as well as being subservient to and berated by a not-black character. Put simply, within the realm of fiction, "black people can't be villains" because it makes people uncomfortable. So there was never any real chance that they were going to make John Stewart into Parallax, even if it would have made sense.

Plus, Stewart's solo book was cancelled due to low sales AND he just wasn't anywhere near as popular back then. It's very easy to forget this now, but John Stewart's popularity only exploded after the JL cartoon show. Before that, DC had essentially written him out of their entire line for several years simply because they didn't know what to do with him. Turning him into Parallax wouldn't have had anywhere near the same emotional impact on the readers. It could've worked for one short-term storyline but I doubt they would have been able to get a decade of strong stories out of it, the way they did with Hal as Parallax. They probably just would have killed him off in short order and that would be that.

I'unno, for my money it all worked out for the best. It kind of strikes me funny that Emerald Twilight still rubs so many people wrong, considering Hal's been Green Lantern again for almost 20 years, now. That decade he was an anti-hero is like a blip on the radar now, anyway. AND it served to make the character a lot more interesting. One would think that by now people wouldn't still be so affected by it.

[MikeandRaph87]

The reason I went looking through the first 50 issues of Green Lantern(1990) and even Action Comics weekly was because I recently read the five issue Final Night series and The Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan prestige format. I realized that John Stewart had reason to lash out and want to rewrite wrongs. There was also the blaming Hal Jordan for the loss of Katma Tui that could have been factored in.


In Hal's final goodbyes he healed John's paralysis. I would have thought that it would have lead to something but it appears John sat on the bench for six more years until the Justice League cartoon aired.


Yes, I also considered the black man going rogue not going over well with non-readers and know that is reason enough it could not happen. I just realized it was more reasonable for John to go rogue and not Hal.


When I went through the JLA volume there was one character that stood out to me as unlikable. Yes, Plastic Man is annoying as intended humor in the book, but that is not what I mean. I just plain out don't like Kyle. It is hard to explain but his personality and liberal mindset that turns me off. I also found it interesting that Kyle disappeared from the JLA book completely after The Obsidian Age after whining about people not being worthy of being protected. Everyone else found their way back into the book.

[Leo656]

Actually, I don't think the JLA series was ever a good showcase for Kyle Rayner. Right from the very first Morrison arc, both Kyle and Wally came off as really different from how they were portrayed in their solo books, and not in a good way.

What you come to find out years after the fact, is that Grant Morrison has this way of being sort of passive-aggressive when he's "forced" to write characters he doesn't care about or like very much. And he's one of those people who's in romantic love with the Silver Age, which means that if it had been up to him in 1995 he would have had Hal as Green Lantern and Barry as Flash during his JLA run. But both of those characters were off the table, so he was "stuck" with Kyle and Wally, and whether consciously or subconsciously he wrote both of them pretty out-of-character and almost unlikeable at times. It got a little better after Morrison left the book, but later writers still felt somewhat beholden to writing the characters as Grant had, for the sake of consistency, so you still had some of that stuff.

Now, keep in mind I'm generally a big fan of most of Morrison's JLA. It's probably the most conventional and easy-to-digest super-hero fare he's ever done, and each arc plays like its own little action movie, which is great. But when you know his quirks, it jumps out at you when he doesn't like a character, and it's clear in hindsight that he had no great love for either Kyle OR Wally. So while I love both of those characters, I don't especially love the way they were presented in that book. Those weren't the characters as they were portrayed in their own books, and much of their behavior in JLA rang false to anyone who paid attention. Much of their character development in the solo books was flat-out ignored by Morrison in favor of just twisting them into whatever archetype he wanted them to represent for the team dynamic. He wanted Kyle to be the "bratty kid brother" of the team and so that's what he wrote. That's not actually who that character WAS, but even back then DC had a way of just letting Grant do whatever he felt like.

But no, I agree that Kyle as presented in JLA was not portrayed in an especially great light. And I put much of that on the fact that Grant just plain didn't like the character. In the hands of other writers, though, he had a ton of shine.

I can't remember specifically what happened with Kyle after the fallout from The Obsidian Age, or why he was written out of JLA for a while. I imagine it had something to do with the goings-on in his solo book, whatever that may have been. He had a habit of getting flung backwards in time or going off into space for long stretches of time, for a while there. So it was probably something like that.
---------------------------

Back to John Stewart, again even if it would have made a modicum of sense to turn him heel instead of Hal, the emotional investment on the part of the audience simply wouldn't have been there. John Stewart, in 1993, was not a very well-known or popular character, and as mentioned his solo book had been cancelled in very short order after only a year or so. Him turning bad would have been a colossal "Who Cares?"

To understand why there was even a "need" to turn ANY of their big heroes into bad guys, and why the list of characters they could have used for that was limited to a select few who would have had major impact, we have to go back a few years to the "Armageddon 2001" cross-over, and DC's botched handling of its reveal. DC put a TON of promotion into that event, with promises that a major DC hero would turn bad and that things would change forever (back when promises like that actually had a bit of truth to them, even if "forever" would truthfully turn out to be "about 10 years", but I digress). And it was actually a great event with a lot of intrigue, until the ending. But you can pretty much pick any single one of the DC 1991 Annuals, and you'll find a great read. UNTIL the final issue, I maintain that Armageddon was one of the best cross-over events they ever did. 99% of it was fantastic.

Except, of course, the Big Reveal. The thing the whole event rested on.

The "major hero" who turned bad was F*cking Hawk, and the "life-changing fallout" was that his new Monarch character was written out of everything immediately and ignored for the next two-plus years as if Armageddon never happened. Talk about a bait-and-switch.

Now, most of us by now know the story, but for those who don't: The reveal was never supposed to be Hawk, it was supposed to be Captain Atom who turned bad, which is VERY obvious if you go back and look at the entire event from the beginning. That would've been a slightly bigger deal, as although Captain Atom wasn't one of the more popular DC character he WAS one of the most powerful by a mile, so the idea of him turning bad was very intriguing. A bad guy who can literally rewrite the laws of physics and bend space/time to his whims would be a really huge deal, especially if it was someone who'd been close to the heroes.

Problem was, the ending leaked out, and DC was SO upset that the spoilers would hurt the book's sales, they rewrote the entire ending so that Monarch was now Hawk. Who wasn't especially notable... or powerful... or particularly ingrained into the DCU... and also, the Hawk & Dove book had just recently been cancelled for lousy sales... and so on. They were admittedly in a bit of a spot, and in hindsight they should have just bit the bullet and made Monarch be Captain Atom as-planned. People would've gotten over having the ending spoiled, so long as the ending made sense. This ending, though, did not make sense, AND as far as alternate choices for the big bad went, you arguably couldn't do much worse than F*cking Hawk. They pretty much went with Hawk BECAUSE it was such an inconsequential character that they could sweep the whole thing under the rug in short order... but it left a bad taste in every single reader's mouth.

So, we look ahead a couple of years at Emerald Twilight and Zero Hour, and with Armageddon in the rearview mirror a LOT of things about what DC did with Hal Jordan suddenly made more sense. There's things we know, and things we can assume. Things We Know include....

- DC was building towards the Zero Hour event, which required a super-powerful villain with the power to reshape time and space. That leaves a short list.

- It was strongly preferable that the Zero Hour villain be a former hero, for maximum emotional response. Bonus Points if it's someone truly iconic.

Things we're left to assume include...
- The originally-planned villain of Zero Hour was probably never supposed to be "Parallax", but Monarch. Evidence to this is how Hawk/Monarch (now changed into "Extant" offscreen, with no explanation whatsoever) is still IN Zero Hour, but mostly as a red herring before the Parallax reveal. Technically, there's almost no reason for the Extant character to even be in play, in that story... unless there had already been chunks of the story written with him in mind. But once Jordan shows up, Extant becomes completely extraneous for the rest of it. Weird, right?

- Furthermore, it's become my belief over the years that Hal was only ever forced to turn because DC had botched the Armageddon reveal so badly. They needed a big, super-powerful former hero for the upcoming Zero Hour event, and they screwed the pooch on Monarch. They had very little time to course-correct, and so they rolled the dice and went with Hal. Which honestly was probably a better choice anyway. Hal turning bad definitely got a ton more ink than an evil Captain Atom would have.

I can't PROVE that that's the How and Why of it all, but if you start with Armageddon and factor in Zero Hour, then it all makes a lot of sense if you add it up. "Emerald Twilight" was essentially DC's attempt to fix the mess they'd made of one event while prepping for the next one. That's my theory. Can't prove it, but I don't think you can disprove it, either.

Either way, swap Hal for John and... it just doesn't work as well. Again, no matter what seeds were or weren't planted, or what logic was or wasn't there, not enough people cared about John Stewart at that particular point in time for it to have any real impact.

Point of fact, I honestly can't think of ANY character they could have pulled it off with, to the same success, as they did with Hal. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single other DC hero they could have turned heel that would have 1. Felt as organic, and 2. Had such a monumental impact. Anyone else, it would have felt incredibly forced AND I'd be willing to bet that after Zero Hour they'd never have been seen again. I'm not even sure that the original plan of Captain Atom as Monarch would have been as big a deal as Hal as Parallax turned out to be. So maybe the universe was just correcting itself all along.

As attempts to wipe up spilled milk go, they certainly could've done worse. As the previous attempt to turn Hawk proved, these things kind of only work if the fans already care about the character. Hal might've been "vanilla", but he was a Big Seven member of the JLA. If you want to shake things up and flip someone's switch to evil, and have it really mean something, that's pretty much your guy.

[MikeandRaph87]

Is the three issue mini-series from 1981 Tales of the Green Lantern Corps worth a buy if I am a Hal Jordan fan?

[Andrew NDB]

Is the three issue mini-series from 1981 Tales of the Green Lantern Corps worth a buy if I am a Hal Jordan fan?

That is a must. The Tales annuals too.

[MikeandRaph87]

That is a must. The Tales annuals too.

I found a near minutes set on Ebay for $18. I know most of the Hal Jordan publication history, but was not aware of this. I have The Untold Legend of The Batman and know about The World of Krypton before it in the early days of mini-series, but this one had escaped my knowledge until last weekend. Well, I got it in a Buy It Now. Hopefully it will be a solid read.

[Leo656]

Y'know what I always liked, was those Green Lantern Corps Quarterly books.

Most of the stories were rather inconsequential, but given that the Corps had thousands of Green Lanterns it was really cool to see some stories about some of the really minor and "unknown" ones. I remember it being a real gut punch when the final issue came out, right after Hal went nuts and destroyed the Corps.

The weirdest thing to me as a kid wasn't having Hal turn bad. It was wiping out the entire GL Corps at the exact moment when they were getting more attention than they ever had. Seriously, like one minute there's multiple books focused on the exploits of various GL-related characters - GL, GL Corps Quarterly, Mosaic, Guy Gardner, various mini-series like the "Emerald Dawns" or "Ganthet's Tale" - and then just like that, snap your fingers, all of it's gone. Guy's book kept going, somehow, after a full revamp to eliminate any traces of GL from it - I never much cared for the "Warrior" run, myself, but it was one of the longest-running DC titles of that specific era while lots of other books were getting axed left and right, so I guess the Warrior run must have been doing okay with SOME people - but otherwise there wasn't any GL presence in the DCU outside of Kyle's book. Which was a consistently good book. It was just weird, how overnight the entire DCU went from full-on GL saturation to almost nothing.

"Justice League Quarterly" wasn't bad, either. I miss stuff like that.

I found a near minutes set on Ebay for $18. I know most of the Hal Jordan publication history, but was not aware of this. I have The Untold Legend of The Batman and know about The World of Krypton before it in the early days of mini-series, but this one had escaped my knowledge until last weekend. Well, I got it in a Buy It Now. Hopefully it will be a solid read.

Y'know what's a great read from back then, too, is the "The Phantom Zone" mini-series. A rare Pre-Crisis Superman story that isn't junk. Pick that one up if you haven't. I saw it bundled recently for a song, so it's probably not hard to come by.

I almost never, ever recommend any Pre-Crisis Superman stuff - outside of "For The Man Who has Everything", "Must There Be A Superman?", and "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", most of the pre-1986 Superman stuff is crap; hard to admit about my all-time favorite character, but the truth is the truth - so if I'm telling you it's good, then you can take it to the bank, pally.

[IMJ]

Anytime Mark Bright worked on a Green Lantern book, it was top notch.

[MikeandRaph87]

Y'know what I always liked, was those Green Lantern Corps Quarterly books.

Most of the stories were rather inconsequential, but given that the Corps had thousands of Green Lanterns it was really cool to see some stories about some of the really minor and "unknown" ones. I remember it being a real gut punch when the final issue came out, right after Hal went nuts and destroyed the Corps.

The weirdest thing to me as a kid wasn't having Hal turn bad. It was wiping out the entire GL Corps at the exact moment when they were getting more attention than they ever had. Seriously, like one minute there's multiple books focused on the exploits of various GL-related characters - GL, GL Corps Quarterly, Mosaic, Guy Gardner, various mini-series like the "Emerald Dawns" or "Ganthet's Tale" - and then just like that, snap your fingers, all of it's gone. Guy's book kept going, somehow, after a full revamp to eliminate any traces of GL from it - I never much cared for the "Warrior" run, myself, but it was one of the longest-running DC titles of that specific era while lots of other books were getting axed left and right, so I guess the Warrior run must have been doing okay with SOME people - but otherwise there wasn't any GL presence in the DCU outside of Kyle's book. Which was a consistently good book. It was just weird, how overnight the entire DCU went from full-on GL saturation to almost nothing.

"Justice League Quarterly" wasn't bad, either. I miss stuff like that.



Y'know what's a great read from back then, too, is the "The Phantom Zone" mini-series. A rare Pre-Crisis Superman story that isn't junk. Pick that one up if you haven't. I saw it bundled recently for a song, so it's probably not hard to come by.

I almost never, ever recommend any Pre-Crisis Superman stuff - outside of "For The Man Who has Everything", "Must There Be A Superman?", and "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", most of the pre-1986 Superman stuff is crap; hard to admit about my all-time favorite character, but the truth is the truth - so if I'm telling you it's good, then you can take it to the bank, pally.

Hard to believe! I mean earth one as in Silver/Bronze Batman is my favorite Batman iteration by far.

Why is Kenny Loggins 'Danger Zone' playing in my mind substituting the word Phantom in the place of Danger? :lol:

I don't read Superman solo honestly. Aside from the Wedding Album special everything Superman I have is because of another character, like the 3 part Action Comics arc I got for Luthor, Brainiac, and the JLA Titans and a pair of earlier Action Comics I got for the Justice League appearance with a subsequent issue featuring Hal and Sinestro. There is also the 3 Batgirl appearances. I have all the DC Comics Presents that include a Batman related character. I do like reading Hal Jordan and Wally West individual stories though. There is not much Hal/ Wally out there.

Green Lantern as a brand was at a high with Hal, John, and Guy all getting their own titles and the alien Green lanterns were getting more focus than ever. What happened? Was it overexposure and dumpster fire sales? Best off if Hal held the main book and had other lanterns reoccurring? To go from three featured lanterns to creating a new one from scratch alone seems likeba drastic shift of direction creatively.


I don't like Hal Jordan committing a DUI and serving a 90 day jail sentence. Sure layered and flawed heroes, but not that particular flaw. I do prefer the 7 part Secret Origin, though I admit Emerald Dawn is a much cooler title for a story.

My next search will be for 'Gorilla Warfare' that weaved through Wally's Flash volume and Green Lantern volume 3.

[Leo656]

The "Phantom Zone" mini-series isn't exactly a Superman solo, despite it obviously featuring him predominantly.

The plotline is, Stuff Happens and then ALL of the Phantom Zone villains get released onto Earth while Superman and his friend Charlie Kweskill (secretly a de-powered Kryptonian named Quex-Ul who'd been de-powered, mind-wiped, and living a normal life on Earth) get sent to the Zone in their place. At which point, the Phantom Zone villains pretty much take over the world to rape, murder and pillage at their leisure while the JLA and the rest of the world tries to fight back and survive, all while Superman and Quex-Ul try to find a backdoor out of the Phantom Zone.

So it's definitely "a Superman story" but pretty much every other prominent DC character at the time has a role in it. Even if much of the time, said "role" is to get their asses kicked by a bunch of Kryptonians. But I mean, naturally. It's one of the few "The Bad Guys Win!" stories that actually does something interesting with the premise before the Good Guys inevitably save the day at the end.

It's good stuff, one of the most highly-acclaimed mini-series of its era. Pretty dark and gritty for its time, too. Again, it comes highly-acclaimed so I definitely recommend checking it out.
---------------

I wasn't in the room at DC Editorial at the time, so I can only speculate as to what caused the abrupt shift in focus from Lots of Green Lantern to Very Little.

Mosaic, I know, was cancelled for low sales. I think the entire concept was a bit too highbrow and cerebral for conventional tastes at that time, frankly. A patchwork of cities plucked from across the universe all coexisting on Oa in a fragile forced ecosystem was an intriguing premise, but the book didn't always have a lot of action in it. John, also, at that time was considered the "#3 Green Lantern" by most people, and there wasn't a ton of interest in a solo book starring him. Most people who read it, liked it, but not a lot of people read it.

We know Guy's book wasn't cancelled for low sales, as it was the only book even tangentially-related to GL to survive the "purge", albeit with Guy completely retooled into his new "Warrior" character. All of his GL trappings being stripped was more a side effect of DC's editorial mandate that nobody but Kyle was allowed to have any GL connections. So we know what happened there. It was a shame, as Yellow Ring Guy Gardner is BEST Guy Gardner.

GL Corps Quarterly, again, had to go because of the "No More GLs Besides Kyle" edict. I doubt that book ever had great sales, seeing as it was a Quarterly book full of filler stories, and those never do especially well. But I also don't think sales were anything to do with it being cancelled. DC simply wanted Kyle to be the only GL and for his book to be the only GL-focused book. No room for GLCQ.

With regard to Hal's solo book... again, I do like Hal and I try hard not to slander him, but at that particular point in time his character and his book were both treading water. Sales were not especially great, and after the first dozen or so issues of that GL volume were done with - the "Mad Guardian" arc, in particular, which was great - there just wasn't a lot going on that was noteworthy.

Superman, Batman, JLA and Flash books were all really moving the needle at that point in time. Their books were selling well and people were really into the stories in those books. GL, regrettably, was not in as strong a place. At one point, Guy's book was reportedly outselling Hal's. Again, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I can definitely believe that. GL, after issue #25 - the big "Hal and Guy Fight, Guy Quits the Corps" issue - it sort of seemed like the GL book was in a holding pattern. It's not that the stories in those post-25 issues were BAD... they were fine. But they weren't especially memorable or impactful, at a time when characters like Superman, Batman, and even Flash were "Must-Read" books.

So that probably had a lot to do with making Hal easy pickings for a Big Shake-Up, as much as all the other stuff I mentioned about Zero Hour. People can argue For or Against the Emerald Twilight arc all day, all month, and all year... what's indisputable is, overnight the Green Lantern comic went from "Eh, it's okay" to "Must-Read", and it STAYED a "must-read" book for a good long while afterwards. Sales reflect that, as do the letter column chatter from that time. There simply hadn't been so much "heat" around GL since the relaunch five years or so earlier.

So it's kinda funny, looking back on it. DC cut the entire GL line down to one book, wiped out the entire Corps, and put the entire focus on One Guy, a brand-new character rather than one that was decades-established... and in so doing, the entire GL "brand" had never been more popular. Pretty wild.

I've long held a theory that a lot of writers at the time were simply "bored" with writing Hal. If you look at the DCU from like, 1991-1993, he had a severely-diminished presence compared to Guy Gardner, who was suddenly everywhere. Who got to be the Lantern in the JLA? Guy, while Hal got shuffled off to the "Justice League Europe" book, which wasn't as popular. Who saved Superman from Eclipso? Guy Gardner... whereas I can't even remember if Hal had any big role in that event. You pull any cross-over from that time, or just pluck a stack of random DC books in general... Guy was everywhere. At one point, I wasn't sure if Hal even WAS still Green Lantern, since it seemed like he barely showed up anywhere for a while.

In hindsight, it seems like everyone wanted to write Guy at that specific point in time, because he was more "fun" to write for and a more dynamic character, whereas they were all just sort of "eh" with Hal by then. Again, this is just a gut theory, but if you go back and look, it does sort of fit with what was happening across the entire line. People weren't throwing Hal into their books to spike sales for a month... they were using Gardner.

As for Hal's 90-day drunk driving sentence... I know that's a controversial storyline, but is that REALLY any better or worse than the whole "He's An Ephebophile" storyline where he was banging Arisia? :lol: Let's be honest, here... Hal never had good luck whenever any writer tried to put some "depth" onto his otherwise-vanilla character.

Hal and Barry were possibly two of the biggest examples of characters who struggled to find a place of relevance once the 1980s hit, and "Comics Weren't Just For Kids Anymore". I mean, it's not exactly the fault of those characters; it's just that for 50 years, "They're Just A Good Guy, And They Do Good Guy Things" was all the "character" that a super-hero needed. Hal and Barry were strongly of that era, and when all of a sudden, super-heroes were being written more "realistically", it was hard to find a place for them because neither of them ever HAD any notable personality or depth of character. So you had writers scramble to come up with "flaws" and "conflict" to project onto two characters who had up to that point been the whitest of White Bread, and it didn't always play well. On Barry's side, you had him suddenly killing Zoom and then the never-ending "murder trial" storyline, all of which was a bit ridiculous, especially its resolution. And with Hal, you suddenly had things like "He's banging teenagers" and "He got a DWI that one time". Because it's like... what do you DO with these characters, to try and make them more "realistic" and give them "depth" despite never having had any?

Superman and Batman had a much easier time with that whole transition period because they'd always been portrayed with some depth and pathos long before that. Hal and Barry, not so much. Which is why they basically got the heave in favor of replacement characters who could be written with more depth, and carried less baggage. It was ultimately easier for writers to develop Wally and Kyle from the ground-up, than try and graft personalities onto Barry and Hal. They TRIED, but it didn't work.

Hal, eventually, managed to find a personality, years upon years later. Barry... eh. I can't speak to much as to recent years. I know that when I stopped reading around 2011, Barry had been back for a couple of years but still hadn't done anything to make me glad he was Flash again instead of Wally. Barry, to me, was honestly more impactful when he was "dead".

[MikeandRaph87]

The "Phantom Zone" mini-series isn't exactly a Superman solo, despite it obviously featuring him predominantly.

The plotline is, Stuff Happens and then ALL of the Phantom Zone villains get released onto Earth while Superman and his friend Charlie Kweskill (secretly a de-powered Kryptonian named Quex-Ul who'd been de-powered, mind-wiped, and living a normal life on Earth) get sent to the Zone in their place. At which point, the Phantom Zone villains pretty much take over the world to rape, murder and pillage at their leisure while the JLA and the rest of the world tries to fight back and survive, all while Superman and Quex-Ul try to find a backdoor out of the Phantom Zone.

So it's definitely "a Superman story" but pretty much every other prominent DC character at the time has a role in it. Even if much of the time, said "role" is to get their asses kicked by a bunch of Kryptonians. But I mean, naturally. It's one of the few "The Bad Guys Win!" stories that actually does something interesting with the premise before the Good Guys inevitably save the day at the end.

It's good stuff, one of the most highly-acclaimed mini-series of its era. Pretty dark and gritty for its time, too. Again, it comes highly-acclaimed so I definitely recommend checking it out.

I will follow up on the other half later,but I will say, I know there was the annual Crisis summer team ups of the JLA and JSA and own a majority of them. It's just I would have liked a so called event with the Satellite Era Justice League active and Dick Grayson operating as Robin. Like Grant or Geoff I lean Silver Age, but Barry bores me so much that I call him 'Barry the Bland'. He and Jason Todd NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESURRECTED. Forcing Flashpoint to go beyond fans of The Flash was a huge mistake especially pinning the blame of the reboot on him attempting retroactive sympathy, if you want his return accepted. I feel like Hal's return was much more desired and was handled a lot better. It also has the ability to have a shared role as a Green Lantern while it cannot be done necessarily in the long-term for Flash. It's the blessing and curse of a legacy. I want to read Hal Jordan, but I also want to read Wally West. I don't want anyone else in the costume if its a solo book. I won't read Barry and I won't read Kyle( yes to John in team books or Hal's back up).

As for The Phantom Zone, itself it maybe the classic era event I wanted to read. While I took Andrew at his word about Tales of The Green Lantern mini-series I do have around 250 Hal Jordan centered Green Lantern comics and not Superman. I think I will give it a read this weekend on readcomicsonline.to and see if its any good. I would rather read it first to see if I like enough to add to my DC mini-series long box. Might be the closest thing I will get aside from the Justice maxi-series or the post-crisis version of it, Silver Age (2000).

Also, another note. Comics are notorious for bringing back any character from the dead not involved in an origin. However, while that is the case Katma Tui, Tomar Re, who outside of Kilowag I thought would have been prominent enough as well as other like Arkkis Chummuck, Galius Zed, Boodika, Laira, Ch'p are all taking a dirt nap still. Heck, as little as G'Nort has been used I thought he was dead.

[Leo656]

I wasn't aware they killed Boodika again. Last I saw her was when she was an Alpha Lantern during the "Final Crisis" era.

I'll be honest, I was a hardcore DC fan/reader for decades, but after Flashpoint I just jumped off and I don't think I've bought a dozen DC books since 2011. Not JUST because I didn't like the New 52, I mean more than anything it was the price hike. I pretty much stopped buying ALL my comics when everything jumped to $3 and $4 per issue. The fact that I didn't like the content very much didn't help, but I might've gotten used to it over time, I admit. But I literally couldn't afford to keep up with it. Now DC's retconned their whole line multiple times since that and I can't even begin to figure out what's going on anymore. I'm honestly having serious doubts about whether or not I'll ever get back into collecting present-day stuff.

For me, "My" DCU was the one that began with Crisis on Infinite Earths and ended with Flashpoint. I was 5 in 1987, and that's when I was old enough to actually read comics and not just look at the pictures, so it felt like I was getting in on the ground floor of this "new" DCU right from the very beginning, it was just a perfect scenario. I didn't have to look backwards or try to catch up on storylines... everything was "brand new" again, Pre-Crisis canon didn't count, and all I had to concern myself with was what was right in front of me at that moment. It was all very simple, easy, and clean.

Things weren't always great - between 2000 and 2004-ish, the whole DC line was in a pretty weak place - but things generally had a way of evening themselves out. The whole "Brightest Day" angle seemed like it was doing a lot to get things in the DCU back to a really excellent place, and it kinda felt like '86/'87 again... and then, all of a sudden, Big Reboot, "Flashpoint", etc. etc. I'm aware that since then they've sort of tried to bring back certain elements of the '86-2010 DCU, but there's still so many retcons and patchwork to try and make it "fit" with the newer stuff, it just doesn't even feel the same to me no matter how hard they try to make it so. So for me, "my" DCU ended with Flashpoint.

But I mean, that version of the DCU had about a 25-year run, so I guess I can't complain too much. I miss what it was, but I could still be perfectly content to ONLY read books from that era, if I wanted, for the rest of my life and I wouldn't especially feel like I was missing much.
---------

I 100% agree that Hal's resurrection was much, much better-handled than Barry Allen's. As I've mentioned, I was never a huge fan of Hal UNTIL "Rebirth", and I actually preferred him as Parallax by then. I had zero interest in seeing Hal as GL again, but the Rebirth mini completely won me over. They actually made Hal seem IMPORTANT, and bringing him back didn't feel like, "Well, we're bringing him back because this writer had a Super-Friends poster on their wall when they were 5."

That IS, however, what Barry Allen's return felt like to me. "The writer just likes this guy better, so he's back". DC had gone to SUCH great lengths, for 20+ years, to really hammer home, "Barry's gone, and now Wally is the Flash, legit, for real, no take-backs." And then they took it back! I mean, they technically let him keep being Flash, but more or less he was just Barry's sidekick again. And I didn't like that. And I didn't think any of the stories I'd read, up through 2010, had up to then truly justified bringing Barry back and pushing Wally aside. It just felt like Geoff Johns flexing because he could.

I mean it's not like I dislike Barry. As a kid, when he was "dead", he'd always been portrayed in such a reverent light that even though he wasn't actively in the books I was reading, I had a lot of respect for him and his sacrifice in Crisis. To the point where that sacrifice ultimately defined his entire character, for me and lots of other readers who were maybe too young to have read Flash when Barry was the guy in the suit.

I mean, Barry was the guy who gave his life to stop the Anti-Monitor and save the whole universe. That was a Big Deal. Then both Barry AND the Anti-Monitor came back, as did the Multiverse, and so it was like, "Well, what exactly makes Crisis so meaningful NOW? You literally undid ALL of it." And thus, the single most important "event" book in DC's entire history was now just One More Big Cross-Over.

I agree about Jason Todd, too. Again, Tim was my Robin, and Jason's death was one of my favorite Batman stories of all time, still is. I never hated Jason, but like Barry it felt to me like his impact was greater as a ghost, as "Bruce's One Big Failure" And like Barry, none of the stories I read with Jason up through 2010 made it seem like it was ever NECESSARY to bring him back.
----------------

I really want to go digging in my longboxes and read The Phantom Zone again, myself. Problem is the spare room's a bit of a mess. I don't like reading comics online. :trazz:

But man, I remember having so many feelings when I read that book as a kid of maybe 9 or 10. There's this one scene, I won't spoil too much, but Faora is skinny-dipping in a lake, or something, and obviously you don't see anything, maybe just her back, or part of it... and I'm just like "...Man." :lol: That was the most "risque" thing I'd ever seen in a comic up to that point, even though it was literally nothing. And of course there's the rest of the book, which isn't exactly graphic in any sense but several characters do die. And that, too, was something I wasn't used to back then as a kid. Keep in mind, I read it in like 1992-ish and it came out way before then in 1982. So I can only imagine how it went over back when it first came out. DC had gradually been moving towards more "grown-up" fare even then, but it was still firmly the "Super-Friends Era" and so a book where a bunch of evil Kryptonians take over the world and start killing people for fun was pretty heavy stuff for its time.

FYI, there's a "sequel" of sorts to the mini-series in DC Comics Presents #97, the final issue of that series. It pretty much concludes and wraps up a bunch of things which the mini-series introduced, such as the final fate of the Zone itself and all the criminals that had been trapped within it. It's not absolutely essential reading, but it does provide a definitive ending to the entire Phantom Zone plotline and works as a nice coda for the mini-series. It's basically presented as the "final" Superman story of the pre-Crisis canon before the Crisis reboot and Byrne's Man of Steel.

That issue's mostly been forgotten about, even though the Phantom Zone mini-series got a lot of praise, simply because of the timing. The whole point of DC Comics Presents being cancelled was because DC was doing Crisis and getting ready for the big 1986 reboot, so all the loose ends in the DCU were being tied up, but since just a few weeks later the whole thing "didn't count" anymore not a lot of people read or remember that story, as they pushed it out of their minds to make room for the new canon which was being presented. Furthermore, at almost the exact same time that issue came out, "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" came out in the Superman books, which was ALSO presented as "the last Pre-Crisis Superman story" of sorts. And the two stories completely contradict each other - which isn't altogether a "sin", because the DC Comics Presents issue was presented as "canon" and "...Man of Tomorrow" was explicitly presented as An Imaginary Story.

So technically, "...Man of Tomorrow" isn't canon with anything, and DC Comics Presents #97 is the "real" ending of Pre-Crisis Superman. BUT, more people feel like "...Man of Tomorrow" is a better story, and altogether a more satisfying conclusion to the Superman saga. So that story got all the attention, Then and Now, while DC Comics Presents #97 was pretty much forgotten about, despite being the "real" ending of Pre-Crisis Superman.

Just a bit of Trivia, there. So if you like the Phantom Zone mini-series, there's one more issue of that story, technically, if you're inclined to seek it out.

[MikeandRaph87]

I will continue discussion on The Phantom Zone after I read it online this Saturday in the DC thread.

I wasn't in the room at DC Editorial at the time, so I can only speculate as to what caused the abrupt shift in focus from Lots of Green Lantern to Very Little.

Mosaic, I know, was cancelled for low sales. I think the entire concept was a bit too highbrow and cerebral for conventional tastes at that time, frankly. A patchwork of cities plucked from across the universe all coexisting on Oa in a fragile forced ecosystem was an intriguing premise, but the book didn't always have a lot of action in it. John, also, at that time was considered the "#3 Green Lantern" by most people, and there wasn't a ton of interest in a solo book starring him. Most people who read it, liked it, but not a lot of people read it.

We know Guy's book wasn't cancelled for low sales, as it was the only book even tangentially-related to GL to survive the "purge", albeit with Guy completely retooled into his new "Warrior" character. All of his GL trappings being stripped was more a side effect of DC's editorial mandate that nobody but Kyle was allowed to have any GL connections. So we know what happened there. It was a shame, as Yellow Ring Guy Gardner is BEST Guy Gardner.

GL Corps Quarterly, again, had to go because of the "No More GLs Besides Kyle" edict. I doubt that book ever had great sales, seeing as it was a Quarterly book full of filler stories, and those never do especially well. But I also don't think sales were anything to do with it being cancelled. DC simply wanted Kyle to be the only GL and for his book to be the only GL-focused book. No room for GLCQ.

With regard to Hal's solo book... again, I do like Hal and I try hard not to slander him, but at that particular point in time his character and his book were both treading water. Sales were not especially great, and after the first dozen or so issues of that GL volume were done with - the "Mad Guardian" arc, in particular, which was great - there just wasn't a lot going on that was noteworthy.

Superman, Batman, JLA and Flash books were all really moving the needle at that point in time. Their books were selling well and people were really into the stories in those books. GL, regrettably, was not in as strong a place. At one point, Guy's book was reportedly outselling Hal's. Again, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I can definitely believe that. GL, after issue #25 - the big "Hal and Guy Fight, Guy Quits the Corps" issue - it sort of seemed like the GL book was in a holding pattern. It's not that the stories in those post-25 issues were BAD... they were fine. But they weren't especially memorable or impactful, at a time when characters like Superman, Batman, and even Flash were "Must-Read" books.

So that probably had a lot to do with making Hal easy pickings for a Big Shake-Up, as much as all the other stuff I mentioned about Zero Hour. People can argue For or Against the Emerald Twilight arc all day, all month, and all year... what's indisputable is, overnight the Green Lantern comic went from "Eh, it's okay" to "Must-Read", and it STAYED a "must-read" book for a good long while afterwards. Sales reflect that, as do the letter column chatter from that time. There simply hadn't been so much "heat" around GL since the relaunch five years or so earlier.

So it's kinda funny, looking back on it. DC cut the entire GL line down to one book, wiped out the entire Corps, and put the entire focus on One Guy, a brand-new character rather than one that was decades-established... and in so doing, the entire GL "brand" had never been more popular. Pretty wild.

I've long held a theory that a lot of writers at the time were simply "bored" with writing Hal. If you look at the DCU from like, 1991-1993, he had a severely-diminished presence compared to Guy Gardner, who was suddenly everywhere. Who got to be the Lantern in the JLA? Guy, while Hal got shuffled off to the "Justice League Europe" book, which wasn't as popular. Who saved Superman from Eclipso? Guy Gardner... whereas I can't even remember if Hal had any big role in that event. You pull any cross-over from that time, or just pluck a stack of random DC books in general... Guy was everywhere. At one point, I wasn't sure if Hal even WAS still Green Lantern, since it seemed like he barely showed up anywhere for a while.

In hindsight, it seems like everyone wanted to write Guy at that specific point in time, because he was more "fun" to write for and a more dynamic character, whereas they were all just sort of "eh" with Hal by then. Again, this is just a gut theory, but if you go back and look, it does sort of fit with what was happening across the entire line. People weren't throwing Hal into their books to spike sales for a month... they were using Gardner.

As for Hal's 90-day drunk driving sentence... I know that's a controversial storyline, but is that REALLY any better or worse than the whole "He's An Ephebophile" storyline where he was banging Arisia? Let's be honest, here... Hal never had good luck whenever any writer tried to put some "depth" onto his otherwise-vanilla character.

Hal and Barry were possibly two of the biggest examples of characters who struggled to find a place of relevance once the 1980s hit, and "Comics Weren't Just For Kids Anymore". I mean, it's not exactly the fault of those characters; it's just that for 50 years, "They're Just A Good Guy, And They Do Good Guy Things" was all the "character" that a super-hero needed. Hal and Barry were strongly of that era, and when all of a sudden, super-heroes were being written more "realistically", it was hard to find a place for them because neither of them ever HAD any notable personality or depth of character. So you had writers scramble to come up with "flaws" and "conflict" to project onto two characters who had up to that point been the whitest of White Bread, and it didn't always play well. On Barry's side, you had him suddenly killing Zoom and then the never-ending "murder trial" storyline, all of which was a bit ridiculous, especially its resolution. And with Hal, you suddenly had things like "He's banging teenagers" and "He got a DWI that one time". Because it's like... what do you DO with these characters, to try and make them more "realistic" and give them "depth" despite never having had any?

Superman and Batman had a much easier time with that whole transition period because they'd always been portrayed with some depth and pathos long before that. Hal and Barry, not so much. Which is why they basically got the heave in favor of replacement characters who could be written with more depth, and carried less baggage. It was ultimately easier for writers to develop Wally and Kyle from the ground-up, than try and graft personalities onto Barry and Hal. They TRIED, but it didn't work.

Hal, eventually, managed to find a personality, years upon years later. Barry... eh. I can't speak to much as to recent years. I know that when I stopped reading around 2011, Barry had been back for a couple of years but still hadn't done anything to make me glad he was Flash again instead of Wally. Barry, to me, was honestly more impactful when he was "dead".

Until I researched where signs of Hal's downfall started as well as the streaks of gray started I did not know that Green Lantern Mosaic was actually an ongoing because it was so short-lived. I thought it was a mini-series. Perhaps it should have been.

Killing off Iris back in 1978 I assume was meant to show it was not rosy sci-fi with Barry. It looks like from an outsider perspective to have only gotten bizarre with the sudden interest in Zatanna and then Fiona so quickly afterwards and the soap opera trial that was longer than a DBZ fight. Then surprise Iris never died, but is in another body a millennium in the future! Even for comics that comes off as strange. Wally even as Kid Flash despite what Marv Wolfman may claim did have a personality and a direction. Sure he was wishy-washy about college taking priority over super heroics, but so was Peter Parker at that same timeframe. Wally was able to do what Dick will likely never do and that is blossom in the direction intended by design as the heir. Having a hero be removed from the board who has no personality and held on a pedestal is needed. I only read Barry in Justice League of America volume one and now the current volume, but even with the edgy 'my mom died' he comes across as better off the table instead of in play to increase importance. If a notable hero needs to die why not a bland one?

While my exposure to Hal is Superfriends before Green Lantern: Rebirth on beyond Justice League of America volume one he does lack the headstrong mr. cool rebel streak that he has now. I assume that it did not manifest until Emerald Twilight(1989)? Despite that I would not call him bland like I would Barry in the 60s' to the mid 80s'.

[Andrew NDB]

I started collecting around "Emerald Twilight" with Hal going crazy and becoming the lead villain in "Zero Hour." That was exciting sh** and I came to really like Kyle Rayner. At the same time as I was buying tons of back issues and learning about GL and the GLC, Kyle was simultaneously learning how to be a Green Lantern. This was around 1993, I guess.

So Kyle continued solo for 11 years. That's a long time. People try to make it seem now like it was just this tiny blip in history... but that's 11 years. He honestly should have remained a prominent character if not the flagship one. Also, turning Hal "evil" was the best thing they ever did to the character. I would have loved to have read a "Parallax" comic where he's like this Dr. Doom figure going around trying to "fix" things.

[MikeandRaph87]

I can forget that there were a few who grew up with comics between early 1994 to late 2002 as both Leo and Andrew did with Kyle flying solo. Kyle is a hard one to like and I prefer to have options on which character I read and it would not be him. Forcing Hal out like that and us onto Kyle was hard to swallow. Also, its the Green Lantern Corps and Hal just happens to be the best of them opposed to a costumed vigilante with a sidekick yet the corps is not present just an occasional Ganthet popping up.

Edit:
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Green-Lantern-1990/Issue-46?id=4202
I had to read it after the commentary. Guys look at the letter column at a letter from Simon DelMonte. It was pretty insightful on what is to come. Its almost like a shakeup with Hal was expected at least by the letter writer. wonder what the letter columns will look like by #55? Then the second woman in the refrigerator not long after too. Also, I noticed that creep Berganza was the editor of the time of Hal's fall.

Also, I have read and own the War World story in DCCP#27&28. Justice League made me think it was an inter-galactic gladiatorial arena. However, its actually the Death Star. What I don't understand is what Mongul and Cyborg Superman were planning. An engine the size of the city was supposed to do what? There were meant to be two one on each coast of the United States, one in Metropolis was averted and the one in Coast City was not.

[MikeandRaph87]

Additionally, I found it interesting that Carol referred to Tom as Pie Face all the way to 1994!

So Barry or Ollie, who is Hal's best friend?

[Andrew NDB]

Additionally, I found it interesting that Carol referred to Tom as Pie Face all the way to 1994!

So Barry or Ollie, who is Hal's best friend?

Everybody called him "Pieface" or "Pie" into the 2000s. No one was calling him Tom ever until people started getting offended for him.

Ollie is his best friend. As much as Geoff wanted it to be Barry and tried to force the narrative.

[MikeandRaph87]

Everybody called him "Pieface" or "Pie" into the 2000s. No one was calling him Tom ever until people started getting offended for him.

Ollie is his best friend. As much as Geoff wanted it to be Barry and tried to force the narrative.

I always thought Barry was despite the sharing the spotlight with Ollie in the 1970s.There is also the Waid mini Flash/Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold. I thought Wally and Kyle as close friends was forced because of the idea that Green lanterns are meant to be close friends with flashes. I don't have a preference.

[Leo656]

I missed the 70s so as a kid I always thought it was Barry and Hal who were best friends. In the 80s and early-90s, that's how DC mostly presented it. In fact, during the "Return of Barry Allen" storyline back then, they specifically had Hal come in and (mistakenly) vouch for "Barry" (secretly Zoom), because he was considered the one most likely to know if he was legit, since they had been "best friends". They also did a few flashback stories to when Barry was alive, and there they also presented Hal and Barry as best friends.

I was aware that Hal and Ollie had a long history together, but at one point it seemed to me like most of their connection was based on the fact that they both wore green. :lol: Zero Hour was honestly the first time I, personally, ever read a story where Ollie was explicitly presented to be Hal's "best friend". And then after Hal came back they definitely reset it and made it much more explicitly clear that it was Hal and Ollie.

So I guess in the grand scheme of things, it's been Hal and Ollie who were best friends. But there was definitely a time when they got away from that and tried to push it so that Hal and Barry were closer.

Just an observation, but to me Hal and Ollie's relationship always seemed a bit too antagonistic to be completely "sincere", insofar as being Best Friends goes. Like GOOD friends maybe, but the Hal/Barry stories always presented them in a way that made it look a little bit more... I'unno... "friendly".

I thought Wally and Kyle as close friends was forced because of the idea that Green lanterns are meant to be close friends with flashes.

I did kinda get that vibe too, for a minute, yeah. At the end of the day, it makes sense for those two specifically though, since both of them were tasked with carrying on and living up to the impossible legacy of their predecessors. It does make sense that there would be a certain kinship there, for sure.

But as a kid there was definitely a minute where I wasn't thinking that deeply about it, and just figured it was as you said, "Flash hangs out with Green Lantern, no matter who's in the suits." :lol:

[MikeandRaph87]

I missed the 70s too, but it was the best decade of comics. The back issue bin is full of treasures and runs to form.

Going back to Mongul and Cyborg Superman's plan. What exactly were they trying to achieve by removing Coast City and Metropolis from the map? Why those two cities? What exactly is an engine city? I don't get how a planet can become a Deathstar battle ship.

[IMJ]

I missed the 70s too, but it was the best decade of comics. The back issue bin is full of treasures and runs to form.

Going back to Mongul and Cyborg Superman's plan. What exactly were they trying to achieve by removing Coast City and Metropolis from the map? Why those two cities? What exactly is an engine city? I don't get how a planet can become a Deathstar battle ship.

Mongul's M.O. is usually to develop a world into "warworld" IIRC.

On that note, one of my favorite Superman books of all-time is Superman Annual #11 (https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_Annual_Vol_1_11). It's one of the better Mongul stories in general and also widely considered one of the best Superman stories of all-time. By coincidence it was also the first comic book I ever owned. Definitely recommended reading.

To the thread at hand though - the way that the Death of Superman informed the direction of Green Lantern for years to come was awesome. It was expertly woven.....

[Leo656]

They were basically gonna retrofit Earth into Warworld, that giant Death Star-kinda planetoid spaceship that Mongul uses to go around enslaving galaxies and whatnot.

Superman had already wrecked the original a few years earlier, so Mongul was still pretty pissed about that by the time he ran into who would become Cyborg Superman out in space. Cyborg Superman had gone mad after his family died, and he came to blame Superman for it. So ultimately, the plan was that together, they'd turn Earth into a new Warworld with Mongul ostensibly as its figurehead ruler as he'd been before, but with Cyborg Superman as the one really in charge. They'd kill and enslave everyone on Earth, and then they'd go around enslaving planets and galaxies together all over the universe. And the real kicker, everyone would think that Superman was the one who was actually responsible for it all, since while he'd been dead the Cyborg Superman had essentially fooled everyone into thinking he was the real Superman back from the dead. So he was gonna enslave the universe in Superman's name using Earth/Warworld as the gun. Pretty evil.

Why specifically Coast City and Metropolis to be turned into Engine Cities, I know they mentioned some of it but I don't know if they specifically mentioned all of it. I think that specifically, the fact that they were two coastal cities was of importance, like it would maximize the damage globally, help fracture the fault lines quicker, cause massive flooding and all of that stuff. There was a strategic element to it, but I can't remember when or how deeply they address it, I just know that they did, to some degree.

I'm pretty sure Metropolis was also picked for the fact that it was Superman's city. Part of the plan was to frame Superman for murdering the universe, so to start by having "him" kill off his adopted hometown would again be really, really twisted. I don't think that, in-story, either of the bad guys had any particular beef with Coast City; it just happened to be there.

Editorially, obviously, Coast City was picked because it fit directly into DC's plans for Hal and Zero Hour. But in-story I'm pretty sure it was just dumb luck that they got hit.

"Engine City" is exactly what it sounds like: A giant city-sized engine that would help quickly retrofit Earth into Warworld. I believe at least one of them was going to also be part of the propulsion system that would have helped the new Warworld travel through space, had the villains succeeded. There were ultimately going to be more "Engine Cities" all over the globe at strategically-placed points. But basically, the short of it is that if they had managed to just turn those two coastal cities into Engine Cities, the damage to the planet would already be so catastrophic that most of the work would have been done.

Much of the Engine City was constructed of similar morphing, self-replicating and shape-shifting alloy as the Cyborg himself, so the cities would essentially "grow" from seeds into giant self-sustaining engines. He could also control any or all of it with his mind, which was even more dangerous; he could essentially BECOME the City anytime he wanted to.

Anyway, it's Comic Book Science. The guy's got Kryptonian Morphing Alloy and he's essentially just a consciousness that can control anything mechanical. You can't really overthink it. It's Bad Sh*t is the point. :lol: I mean, we're left to assume this is pretty much how Mongul made all his other Warworlds, before and since, since he's had others but this is the only time they ever bothered showing any part of the How.

Pretty nasty. Not a bad plan, as far as plans go. Except for, y'know, Superman not staying dead kinda f*cked the whole thing up for 'em. I don't see who would've stopped them otherwise, though. They pretty much had it nailed before he showed up. As he does.

[MikeandRaph87]

They were basically gonna retrofit Earth into Warworld, that giant Death Star-kinda planetoid spaceship that Mongul uses to go around enslaving galaxies and whatnot.

Superman had already wrecked the original a few years earlier, so Mongul was still pretty pissed about that by the time he ran into who would become Cyborg Superman out in space. Cyborg Superman had gone mad after his family died, and he came to blame Superman for it. So ultimately, the plan was that together, they'd turn Earth into a new Warworld with Mongul ostensibly as its figurehead ruler as he'd been before, but with Cyborg Superman as the one really in charge. They'd kill and enslave everyone on Earth, and then they'd go around enslaving planets and galaxies together all over the universe. And the real kicker, everyone would think that Superman was the one who was actually responsible for it all, since while he'd been dead the Cyborg Superman had essentially fooled everyone into thinking he was the real Superman back from the dead. So he was gonna enslave the universe in Superman's name using Earth/Warworld as the gun. Pretty evil.

Why specifically Coast City and Metropolis to be turned into Engine Cities, I know they mentioned some of it but I don't know if they specifically mentioned all of it. I think that specifically, the fact that they were two coastal cities was of importance, like it would maximize the damage globally, help fracture the fault lines quicker, cause massive flooding and all of that stuff. There was a strategic element to it, but I can't remember when or how deeply they address it, I just know that they did, to some degree.

I'm pretty sure Metropolis was also picked for the fact that it was Superman's city. Part of the plan was to frame Superman for murdering the universe, so to start by having "him" kill off his adopted hometown would again be really, really twisted. I don't think that, in-story, either of the bad guys had any particular beef with Coast City; it just happened to be there.

Editorially, obviously, Coast City was picked because it fit directly into DC's plans for Hal and Zero Hour. But in-story I'm pretty sure it was just dumb luck that they got hit.

"Engine City" is exactly what it sounds like: A giant city-sized engine that would help quickly retrofit Earth into Warworld. I believe at least one of them was going to also be part of the propulsion system that would have helped the new Warworld travel through space, had the villains succeeded. There were ultimately going to be more "Engine Cities" all over the globe at strategically-placed points. But basically, the short of it is that if they had managed to just turn those two coastal cities into Engine Cities, the damage to the planet would already be so catastrophic that most of the work would have been done.

Much of the Engine City was constructed of similar morphing, self-replicating and shape-shifting alloy as the Cyborg himself, so the cities would essentially "grow" from seeds into giant self-sustaining engines. He could also control any or all of it with his mind, which was even more dangerous; he could essentially BECOME the City anytime he wanted to.

Anyway, it's Comic Book Science. The guy's got Kryptonian Morphing Alloy and he's essentially just a consciousness that can control anything mechanical. You can't really overthink it. It's Bad Sh*t is the point. :lol: I mean, we're left to assume this is pretty much how Mongul made all his other Warworlds, before and since, since he's had others but this is the only time they ever bothered showing any part of the How.

Pretty nasty. Not a bad plan, as far as plans go. Except for, y'know, Superman not staying dead kinda f*cked the whole thing up for 'em. I don't see who would've stopped them otherwise, though. They pretty much had it nailed before he showed up. As he does.

I had assumed that Cyborg Superman was acting as an agent for Mongul to decide where to attack. Seems like a large unpopulated area, but whatever they are evil! However, it seems that Henshaw had contacted Mongul and he is working under Cyborg Superman? It's just tying it to the Death and Return of Superman and wiping out the entire city without Hal Jordan involved at all until that point and despite the massive bloodshed no one actually died. What I mean is no one of actual importance to Hal.

So two engine cities would make the Earth into a ship at the behest of Cyborg Superman? From there Mongul will collect species and bring them to the dying planet for gladitorial combat? Maybe its the Justice League influence that contributing to my confusion. Also, the fact that the biggest Green Lantern tragedy happening in a Superman book without the main character effected. Its seems executed (pun unintended) so poorly by editorial.

I can see Ollie being the best friend over Barry. It upped the emotion for Zero Hour. Also, Hal having revived Ollie would put that as an exclamation point. In Identity Crisis, I reread it a couple months back. Hal tells Ollie that he is working on a way to return to the living. Was that merely a teaser for the editorial green lite return in Green Lantern: Rebirth that was just a few months away? Plot-wise it suggest something, but i assume he really was not working on anything as he had put it.

[Leo656]

Mongul was working for Cyborg Superman and not the other way around.

Mongul initially fancied himself as the one who'd lead, but Henshaw had other plans and took over from the very beginning. They never really hit it off very well. I always figured Henshaw would have killed Mongul the moment he stopped being useful; he pretty much constantly threatened to do just that.

[MikeandRaph87]

Mongul was working for Cyborg Superman and not the other way around.

Mongul initially fancied himself as the one who'd lead, but Henshaw had other plans and took over from the very beginning. They never really hit it off very well. I always figured Henshaw would have killed Mongul the moment he stopped being useful; he pretty much constantly threatened to do just that.

Having read both Mongul's initial appearance in DCCP#27& 28 and 'For The Man Who Has Everything' I took him for a tyrant. Then the idea of him bowing before Cyborg Superman makes no sense.

I understand now that Cyborg Superman is the recruiter of Mongul and supplied the 77,000 explosives and nanotechnology seeds. Coast City and Metropolis were to be used to control the rotation of the planet.

It is also interesting that aside from Krona that there was no specifically identified Guardian until Ganthet and he appeared in just two stories before Hal Jordan's fall. You would have thought that Ganthet would have had more interaction with Hal beforehand.

[IMJ]

All this great talk about Mongul as a villain.... Anyone else a fan of this book?

https://i.imgur.com/SjYfmcml.jpg

I haven't routinely bought Superman since around the time the "Return of Superman" story wrapped up. But I've got a modest collection related to the character's moments of "greatest stories ever told" runs or issues.....

Another terrific issue:

https://i.imgur.com/cuBeWqsl.jpg

[Leo656]

It makes perfect sense if you actually know the characters.

Mongul is a tyrant, an all-around irredeemable "bad guy".

But as bad as he is, Henshaw's worse. Like way, way worse.

That was ultimately the point of the reveal, and it played incredibly well. You're SUPPOSED to think Mongul is the Big Bad, because it's obvious. Then you find out Cyborg is also a bad guy, and you have certain expectations. Then you find out who Cyborg actually IS, and it's like... "Oh, Jesus." He's both evil AND insane. And on top of all that, he's immortal.

As bold as Mongul is, he'd never be crazy enough to aspire to, like, try and take down Darkseid and take over Apokolips. Henshaw would, and (using Doomsday as his weapon) almost did. He's Next-Level.

Superman #81 details the first meeting of Mongul and Henshaw, where their dynamic was established. No one had ever tortured Mongul into submission the way he'd done to so many others. He'd rarely felt pain, and he'd NEVER felt fear. Not until he met someone more ruthless then he was, something he'd never even thought possible. Add on the fact that Mongul had already been brought down by Superman, and Henshaw in his Cyborg Superman form is even MORE powerful than Superman is.

Mongul, also, ultimately isn't very bright, while Henshaw was already a genius even before he became immortal and had access to Kryptonian tech.

So on one hand, you've got a guy who's essentially "just" a big, tough, nigh-indestructible and incredibly ruthless dude... and then here's his boss, who's essentially Satan in robot form. :lol:

Seeing Mongul revealed as the lackey and not the mastermind was shocking on purpose, but also, made perfect sense. The reveal of Cyborg as Henshaw and his history with Superman was the clincher. To anyone who'd been following the Superman books for several years, that was literally a "drop-the-book-in-your-lap-in-shock" moment. People had a million theories about Cyborg Superman, but THAT specific reveal was one nobody'd ever even considered. At the same time, it was like "Oh, yeah, duh, I really SHOULD have seen that coming." It was a very smart, really sharp reveal and it went over huge. People loved it.

People were honestly a little bit let down - initially - when it looked like Mongul was the one behind everything. Like it wouldn't have been "bad", it would've been fine, but it was a little too predictable. Then BAM, second twist/reveal, and it wasn't a "cheat" but rather something that paid off a few stories from a few years earlier. And that just made it a slam dunk.

All this great talk about Mongul as a villain.... Anyone else a fan of this book?

https://i.imgur.com/SjYfmcml.jpg


I've mentioned before, it's easily the best single-issue Superman story ever, before the Byrne reboot happened.

Superman didn't actually really get "good", objectively, until the Byrne reboot in 1986; before that it was 99% fluff for little kids. But every now and then, you had a gem like that one or "Must There Be A Superman?". There are a few good Pre-Crisis Superman stories, but they're rare. "For the Man Who has Everything" is pretty much the definitive "best" of that era. Which would mean more if there wasn't such a low bar.

I'm maaaaaybe the biggest Superman fan. I'd plead the case in court if I had to. BUT. Pre-Byrne Superman is... mostly not good.

[Avenger]

Happy to know this topic is still alive.

I don't know why, but I was never able to find the GL issues #1-47 (before Emerald Twilight) Except for the issue #46 being included in the "Return of Superman" storyline.

For what I can find on Comixology, Amazon or DC Infinite:

Green Lantern #1-200
GLC #201-210

On paper comic book, I think I didn't find anything after the GL/GA.

After that it goes right to issue #48 for the Emerald Twilight storyline.

Maybe it's because I search for e-comics or collection editions (not really interested in single issues)

So there are a lot of GL issues that were never put in any collections.

[IMJ]

It makes perfect sense if you actually know the characters.

Mongul is a tyrant, an all-around irredeemable "bad guy".

But as bad as he is, Henshaw's worse. Like way, way worse.

That was ultimately the point of the reveal, and it played incredibly well. You're SUPPOSED to think Mongul is the Big Bad, because it's obvious. Then you find out Cyborg is also a bad guy, and you have certain expectations. Then you find out who Cyborg actually IS, and it's like... "Oh, Jesus." He's both evil AND insane. And on top of all that, he's immortal.

As bold as Mongul is, he'd never be crazy enough to aspire to, like, try and take down Darkseid and take over Apokolips. Henshaw would, and (using Doomsday as his weapon) almost did. He's Next-Level.

Superman #81 details the first meeting of Mongul and Henshaw, where their dynamic was established. No one had ever tortured Mongul into submission the way he'd done to so many others. He'd rarely felt pain, and he'd NEVER felt fear. Not until he met someone more ruthless then he was, something he'd never even thought possible. Add on the fact that Mongul had already been brought down by Superman, and Henshaw in his Cyborg Superman form is even MORE powerful than Superman is.

Mongul, also, ultimately isn't very bright, while Henshaw was already a genius even before he became immortal and had access to Kryptonian tech.

So on one hand, you've got a guy who's essentially "just" a big, tough, nigh-indestructible and incredibly ruthless dude... and then here's his boss, who's essentially Satan in robot form. :lol:

Seeing Mongul revealed as the lackey and not the mastermind was shocking on purpose, but also, made perfect sense. The reveal of Cyborg as Henshaw and his history with Superman was the clincher. To anyone who'd been following the Superman books for several years, that was literally a "drop-the-book-in-your-lap-in-shock" moment. People had a million theories about Cyborg Superman, but THAT specific reveal was one nobody'd ever even considered. At the same time, it was like "Oh, yeah, duh, I really SHOULD have seen that coming." It was a very smart, really sharp reveal and it went over huge. People loved it.

People were honestly a little bit let down - initially - when it looked like Mongul was the one behind everything. Like it wouldn't have been "bad", it would've been fine, but it was a little too predictable. Then BAM, second twist/reveal, and it wasn't a "cheat" but rather something that paid off a few stories from a few years earlier. And that just made it a slam dunk.



I've mentioned before, it's easily the best single-issue Superman story ever, before the Byrne reboot happened.

Superman didn't actually really get "good", objectively, until the Byrne reboot in 1986; before that it was 99% fluff for little kids. But every now and then, you had a gem like that one or "Must There Be A Superman?". There are a few good Pre-Crisis Superman stories, but they're rare. "For the Man Who has Everything" is pretty much the definitive "best" of that era. Which would mean more if there wasn't such a low bar.

I'm maaaaaybe the biggest Superman fan. I'd plead the case in court if I had to. BUT. Pre-Byrne Superman is... mostly not good.


Yeah I've been slowly building the Byrne run on and off for a while now. I think between all of the titles I'm only missing a few books. It's a gorgeous run too....

[MikeandRaph87]

Happy to know this topic is still alive.

I don't know why, but I was never able to find the GL issues #1-47 (before Emerald Twilight) Except for the issue #46 being included in the "Return of Superman" storyline.

For what I can find on Comixology, Amazon or DC Infinite:

Green Lantern #1-200
GLC #201-210

On paper comic book, I think I didn't find anything after the GL/GA.

After that it goes right to issue #48 for the Emerald Twilight storyline.

Maybe it's because I search for e-comics or collection editions (not really interested in single issues)

So there are a lot of GL issues that were never put in any collections.

Hey Avenger, I picked up all four parts of 'The Gorilla Warfare' arc between Flash volume 2 and Green Lantern volume 3. This guy has quite a bit of what you are looking for and will adjust the shipping if you ask in a PM ahead of purchase. I got the two Flash issues and two Green Lantern issues for $16 altogether with the combined shipping. I prefer to get the single issues personally. It makes sense for a long-term collection and appreciation. Also, if condition is a concern you can always read it for free online after you get the issue so not to mess up the condition. That is just my take, but if you want Green Lantern volume 3 #1-47 see what this guy has. Also, if Wally's Flash volume is your thing he has many of those for sale as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/143665783978?var=442649449495

[Leo656]

Yeah, most of the GL run before Emerald Twilight, I don't think, has been collected. I've got most of them, and I don't remember having exactly a big problem finding them... but that's taking into account I buy 99% of my comics at shops and not online.

Also, I bought most of my collection between 2000-2009 and I'd imagine a ton of stuff is harder to find now just in general. Not sure about those.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, most of the GL run before Emerald Twilight, I don't think, has been collected.

Bits and pieces, but not much. And it doesn't help that the pre-Emerald Twilight issues of Vol. 3 were primarily written by who became a tried and convicted kiddie porn baron, Gerard Jones. Dude is still in prison, too.

[Leo656]

Yeah I've been slowly building the Byrne run on and off for a while now. I think between all of the titles I'm only missing a few books. It's a gorgeous run too....

Byrne's run was great, short as it was. Then it pretty much became "The Jurgens Era", and Jurgens was really great too. Historically, he's always been the guy they call when they need to "fix" whatever they screwed up with Superman. Every few years, they get away from him and give someone else the job... and inevitably, they call him back once it gets off-track.

He's probably the best Superman writer who ever lived. He's definitely got the miles. Art-wise, he's my personal favorite as well but Jim Lee is also really, really good. But between art and writing at the same time, Dan's the only guy who ever did it all for an extended run and did it better than anyone else. He really gets the character, and furthermore, treats it like more than a job.

Bits and pieces, but not much. And it doesn't help that the pre-Emerald Twilight issues of Vol. 3 were primarily written by who became a tried and convicted kiddie porn baron, Gerard Jones. Dude is still in prison, too.

Jesus, I keep forgetting about that. Yeah, that probably doesn't help.

[MikeandRaph87]

I received this in the mail today! :D


I am surprised that the Guardians did not have names or distinctive personalities from one another until so late in Hal's 35 year first run.

On a lesser note I was not aware of Gerard Jones. I knew the editor of the book when volume 3 launched Eddie Berganza, was a harassing creep.

[Andrew NDB]

I knew the editor of the book when volume 3 launched Eddie Berganza, was a harassing creep.

Berganza's a real piece of sh**. He really ruined a San Diego comic con for me, once.

[Leo656]

Yeah, it kinda goes to show you how much thought DC put into their books when for literally decades, the Guardians were just "The Guardians". :lol:

I really liked it when Appa Ali Apsa ("Old Timer") went mad. That was really neat. Like you'd think that would happen at some point, right? These cosmic, all-powerful beings that are older than the universe... you'd think one of 'em would lose their marbles at some point. Especially since they so often came off as jerkasses to begin with.

That was another thing I loved about Emerald Twilight. Hal finally called the Guardians out on being a pack of assholes, and all they could do was sit there like "......" because it was completely true. :lol: Up until then I thought it was just me.

[Avenger]

Yeah, it kinda goes to show you how much thought DC put into their books when for literally decades, the Guardians were just "The Guardians". :lol:

I really liked it when Appa Ali Apsa ("Old Timer") went mad. That was really neat. Like you'd think that would happen at some point, right? These cosmic, all-powerful beings that are older than the universe... you'd think one of 'em would lose their marbles at some point. Especially since they so often came off as jerkasses to begin with.

That was another thing I loved about Emerald Twilight. Hal finally called the Guardians out on being a pack of assholes, and all they could do was sit there like "......" because it was completely true. :lol: Up until then I thought it was just me.


Well, what happened at the end of Geoff John's run would pretty much define "loosing their marbles" They went evil just to be killed by Sinestro, and they were replaced by another bunch of undevelopped and unnamed Guardians. (Beside Ganthet)

Changing 4 quarters for 1$.

[MikeandRaph87]

Well, what happened at the end of Geoff John's run would pretty much define "loosing their marbles" They went evil just to be killed by Sinestro, and they were replaced by another bunch of undevelopped and unnamed Guardians. (Beside Ganthet)

Changing 4 quarters for 1$.

Yes, I found the backup set of Guardians who were left behind as guards millenniums ago a cheap plot device I thought would have been above Johns.

There is definite cues from Star Wars which the Jedi Council block out all aspects of emotion and it allows their enemy to exploit and kill them.

Avenger,did that eBay link be of any use to you?

[Avenger]

Yes, I found the backup set of Guardians who were left behind as guards millenniums ago a cheap plot device I thought would have been above Johns.

There is definite cues from Star Wars which the Jedi Council block out all aspects of emotion and it allows their enemy to exploit and kill them.

Avenger,did that eBay link be of any use to you?

I checked yes, but unfortunately, since it's US and I'm in Canada, I think the shipping is going to be more expensive than 15$.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much energy and money I want to spend finding "unread old issues" because it's more about "I read it" than "I liked it and I'm going to read it again".

I still have some troubles with old dialogues and old artworks.

The trouble with Geoff John's run is that it was always "blockbuster" style. That's why I had so much trouble with Grant Morrison.

I read the 3 first issues of the new serie. So far, it seems to be John centered.

[MikeandRaph87]

I checked yes, but unfortunately, since it's US and I'm in Canada, I think the shipping is going to be more expensive than 15$.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much energy and money I want to spend finding "unread old issues" because it's more about "I read it" than "I liked it and I'm going to read it again".

I still have some troubles with old dialogues and old artworks.

The trouble with Geoff John's run is that it was always "blockbuster" style. That's why I had so much trouble with Grant Morrison.

I read the 3 first issues of the new serie. So far, it seems to be John centered.

That is why I dropped it after reading the Hal lead titles since GL:Rebirth in the Fall of 2004. It's not Hal centered so its not for me. It's too many green lanterns. Heck, it was hard enough balancing Hal, Kyle,John, and Guy and making them all relevant. Then to double the number and not even include Alan Scott in the count? Green Lantern seems to be a dumping ground for unnecessary diversity. I want my Hal Jordan centered title back. Since Morrison's The Green Lantern Season 2 #12 saw prin the only Green Lantern related book I bought was the recent annual because Hal was one of the two GLs it was centered on along with Cruz.

[Andrew NDB]

Well, what happened at the end of Geoff John's run would pretty much define "loosing their marbles" They went evil just to be killed by Sinestro, and they were replaced by another bunch of undevelopped and unnamed Guardians. (Beside Ganthet)

Changing 4 quarters for 1$.

Yeah, and Geoff was determined to make the Guardians into bad guys, for some reason. I remember when there was the big thing about the Guardians making 10 rules for the GLC, but Geoff only bothered to reveal two of them before he just lost interest in the whole thing (as usual).

[MikeandRaph87]

On a related note, Ganthet only appeared twice before Emerald Twilight. His second appearance was in a storyarc titled 'The Third Law'. What is the third law or the first two for that matter?

Also, Hal vaporizes fellow green lanterns with his ring in Emerald Twilight. Yet later on there is said to be a default that prevent lanterns from killing with their rings.

[Andrew NDB]

On a related note, Ganthet only appeared twice before Emerald Twilight. His second appearance was in a storyarc titled 'The Third Law'. What is the third law or the first two for that matter?

The first law was that energy cannot be created, the second law that every action causes a permanent loss of energy and the third law according to Krona was that "perfect peace can only come through absolute entropy." This was all surrounding the discovery that Krona tinkering with the Big Bang shortened the life of existence considerably.

But those aren't remotely the same things as the "laws" that the Guardians started rolling out in the middle of Geoff's run.

Also, Hal vaporizes fellow green lanterns with his ring in Emerald Twilight. Yet later on there is said to be a default that prevent lanterns from killing with their rings.

Hal vaporizing Green Lanterns (and it was only one, Kilowog, who didn't even exactly die) was during the reign of the original Guardians, about 30 minutes before they all committed suicide around the Central Power Battery (later comics would say "Hal killed the Guardians!" but this is blatantly untrue). They didn't have a no-killing thing. In fact, the GLs even executed Sinestro late into Vol. 2.

The no-killing thing was from the Guardians after those Guardians. Who were resurrected as male and female baby Guardians by Kyle in Vol. 3 #150 who then all had to grow up anew. These Guardians had rules about no-killing and later rules about love and such.

[MikeandRaph87]

The first law was that energy cannot be created, the second law that every action causes a permanent loss of energy and the third law according to Krona was that "perfect peace can only come through absolute entropy." This was all surrounding the discovery that Krona tinkering with the Big Bang shortened the life of existence considerably.

But those aren't remotely the same things as the "laws" that the Guardians started rolling out in the middle of Geoff's run.



Hal vaporizing Green Lanterns (and it was only one, Kilowog, who didn't even exactly die) was during the reign of the original Guardians, about 30 minutes before they all committed suicide around the Central Power Battery (later comics would say "Hal killed the Guardians!" but this is blatantly untrue). They didn't have a no-killing thing. In fact, the GLs even executed Sinestro late into Vol. 2.

The no-killing thing was from the Guardians after those Guardians. Who were resurrected as male and female baby Guardians by Kyle in Vol. 3 #150 who then all had to grow up anew. These Guardians had rules about no-killing and later rules about love and such.

The last issue of Green Lantern vol.2,right? Where he was apparently put in the central power battery? Though he reemerged before Emerald Twilight and faced Guy Gardner right?

I was not sure if it was a post-Infinite Crisis re-write stating that Green Lanterns did not kill to justify Geoff Johns narrative and part of Sinestro's motivations.

Yeah, the whole mass suicide thing was weird and I never understood why Hal was blamed for their 'deaths'. Maybe he drove them to the point where they felt it was necessary, but he did not pull the trigger.

[Avenger]

On a related note, Ganthet only appeared twice before Emerald Twilight. His second appearance was in a storyarc titled 'The Third Law'. What is the third law or the first two for that matter?

Also, Hal vaporizes fellow green lanterns with his ring in Emerald Twilight. Yet later on there is said to be a default that prevent lanterns from killing with their rings.

So it means the Guardian in GL/GA wasn't Ganthet? I haven't read it for a long time, but I thought it was a "blueprint" for Ganthet or an early version of him.

[MikeandRaph87]

So it means the Guardian in GL/GA wasn't Ganthet? I haven't read it for a long time, but I thought it was a "blueprint" for Ganthet or an early version of him.

I am basing it off of the story as depicted in Ganthet's Tale as well as aDC Comics chronlo0gy archive DCU Guide. Perhaps he was proto-Ganthet? I am the expert on pre-crisis Batman, only Green Lantern: Rebirth onwards can I even claim with the character.

[Avenger]

The first law was that energy cannot be created, the second law that every action causes a permanent loss of energy and the third law according to Krona was that "perfect peace can only come through absolute entropy." This was all surrounding the discovery that Krona tinkering with the Big Bang shortened the life of existence considerably.

But those aren't remotely the same things as the "laws" that the Guardians started rolling out in the middle of Geoff's run.



Hal vaporizing Green Lanterns (and it was only one, Kilowog, who didn't even exactly die) was during the reign of the original Guardians, about 30 minutes before they all committed suicide around the Central Power Battery (later comics would say "Hal killed the Guardians!" but this is blatantly untrue). They didn't have a no-killing thing. In fact, the GLs even executed Sinestro late into Vol. 2.

The no-killing thing was from the Guardians after those Guardians. Who were resurrected as male and female baby Guardians by Kyle in Vol. 3 #150 who then all had to grow up anew. These Guardians had rules about no-killing and later rules about love and such.

I don't know how much time passed "in universe" between last Kyle's issue and the starting of Rebirth, but it seems Geoff Johns never bothered to develop the baby guardians thing. When the GLC is rebuilt, they all are mature Guardians and no trace of the "education" Ganthet gave them.

And also Kyle's reaction "Wait! My ring can talk?". Totally strange considering how much time he was GL.

I loved Geoff's run, but reading all Kyle's run made me realise how little he cared about his predecessor's work.

[Andrew NDB]

The last issue of Green Lantern vol.2,right? Where he was apparently put in the central power battery? Though he reemerged before Emerald Twilight and faced Guy Gardner right?

Eh... his spirit or something was in the CPB, inside the Yellow Impurity that looked like an organ within it (retroactively, I guess that was Parallax?). Not him, exactly. When the GLs zapped Sinestro to death, he was dead for a good while.

I was not sure if it was a post-Infinite Crisis re-write stating that Green Lanterns did not kill to justify Geoff Johns narrative and part of Sinestro's motivations.

I mean, maybe. By the same way that later on, later Geoff comics would pretend that the Guardians had always been 50/50 male and female when that was 100% not the case. They were all male for thousands of years until Kyle's social experiment. Geoff loves to retcon little things and pretend they've always been that way.

Yeah, the whole mass suicide thing was weird and I never understood why Hal was blamed for their 'deaths'. Maybe he drove them to the point where they felt it was necessary, but he did not pull the trigger.

It's mostly lazy writers who remember things wrong or never bothered to read them.

So it means the Guardian in GL/GA wasn't Ganthet? I haven't read it for a long time, but I thought it was a "blueprint" for Ganthet or an early version of him.

Not Ganthet and no blueprint. That Guardian was Appa Ali Apsa, who was driven mad after those adventures and became "The Mad Guardian," a villain.

[Leo656]

It's hard to believe that Geoff John pre-GL Rebirth and post-GL Rebirth are even the same guy. I like that story a lot but that seems to be the biggest fracture point.

Before that, he had a slew of good reboots under his belt and a decent reputation for "cleaning up" things that had gotten overcomplicated. Really good Flash, Teen Titans and JSA runs.

After that, nobody ever said "no" to the guy again and he had free reign to do absolutely anything, to the point where he quickly developed Grant Morrison "Only MY Books Are Canon" Syndrome.

He did some good stuff after, but since then he's very clearly been high on his own sh*t. Too bad.

[Andrew NDB]

It's hard to believe that Geoff John pre-GL Rebirth and post-GL Rebirth are even the same guy. I like that story a lot but that seems to be the biggest fracture point.

Before that, he had a slew of good reboots under his belt and a decent reputation for "cleaning up" things that had gotten overcomplicated. Really good Flash, Teen Titans and JSA runs.

After that, nobody ever said "no" to the guy again and he had free reign to do absolutely anything, to the point where he quickly developed Grant Morrison "Only MY Books Are Canon" Syndrome.

He did some good stuff after, but since then he's very clearly been high on his own sh*t. Too bad.

I take it as proof positive that the good Geoff years (and look at the first few issues of GL Vol. 4 before the "Sinestro Corps War"... those were some good issues! and I didn't mind the SCW as a one off event until all we were getting were back to back events or writing crap for trades) were the result of editorial reining him in, Peter Tomasi in particular. As soon as Peter Tomasi stepped down as editor and started writing and Geoff only dealt with editors scared of him, his inner crap started to show bigtime and the kinds of stuff that he wanted to write about and "deal with" became pretty clear.

He stopped telling stories and stared just doing mega events with bullet points of things he wanted to "fix" throughout GL history.

[Leo656]

I blame his Hollywood influence.

I mean, as I understand it he was never a "big shot" but he'd done time as Donner's lapdog, and thus he was a "big shot" to the plebeians working within the comic book industry, who probably had stars in their eyes and were just amazed someone from a "real" entertainment arm would deign to have anything to do with them. And also, since he had Hollywood experience, "obviously" he was smarter and had better ideas than all of these lowly comic book writers.

That's what it always felt like to me. Within the realm of comics, he had a good start but quickly got out of control. Ever since Sinestro Corps it's like a pod person took over. I'm shocked they didn't just start inventing new colors so they could keep the whole "War of Light" plotline going for another decade. I liked the basic idea, until it became obvious "this is going to be the ONLY Green Lantern plot for the next hundred years". Then it all got boring.

[MikeandRaph87]

I got tired of the alliance of convince between Hal and Sinestro. It started in Blackest Night and went on until the end of Geoff's run with Green Lantern volume 5 #20. That was about 3 years worth of stories.

I understand that Geoff wanted to make Green Lantern more space opera, but I wanted to see the rebuilt Coast City and rouges like The Shark, Sonar, and Evil Star who all seemed to be left behind in the retooling of the mythos.

The lantern colors have gone beyond Geoff Johns. First Synder had the Ultraviolet Lantern. Now Bendis is introducing a gold lantern. Was the Ultraviolet Lantern ot ever resolved by Justice League#39 or was it resolved in Death Metal, the latter of which I did not read?

[Andrew NDB]

I got tired of the alliance of convince between Hal and Sinestro. It started in Blackest Night and went on until the end of Geoff's run with Green Lantern volume 5 #20. That was about 3 years worth of stories.

Geoff seemed pretty obsessed with Sinestro as the Greatest Green Lantern and in somehow redeeming him. He also seems to forget -- or ignore -- that Sinestro was responsible for the wiping out of an entire sector... literally trillions upon trillions of lives. There really shouldn't be any coming back from that.

I understand that Geoff wanted to make Green Lantern more space opera, but I wanted to see the rebuilt Coast City and rouges like The Shark, Sonar, and Evil Star who all seemed to be left behind in the retooling of the mythos.


Yeah. I didn't mind some kind of balancing act between space and Earth/Coast City... but just 99.9% space after Sinestro Corps War? Why did he even bother to bring back Coast City at all, then?

[MikeandRaph87]

Some things were amplified beyond expectations like the growth of the mythos, intertwining other characters like Star Sapphire, Black Hand, and Nekron while other things like having some Earth based stories taking away from Coast City and a few other villains and relationships like his younger brother and supporting cast. Its not all space, space, space. I understand Earth is but one planet and he is charged with an entire sector (how many solar systems is a sector though?), but one of the reasons Coast City is vulnerable is because Hal is off in space almost all the time.

In Flash#200 Barry tells Hal, 'You are well on your way Hal' and he responded, 'Well on my way'? To what?'. This was published over a year before Green Lantern: Rebirth was printed. So we know that Barry is aware of Hal's downfall and comeback. Yet how long before it actually happened was it decided Hal could be dusted off as Green Lantern? Obliviously, the character himself was only shelved for about two years between Parallax and Spectre so he important enough to stay around in some form. It is also interesting at how just months before this in response to Justice League cartoon John Stewart is allowed off the bench. Makes me wonder if DC did not have faith in Kyle and wanted to have all the green lantern mantle holders active to see if sales could take like 1992 intended and hold firm instead of flatline.

[Andrew NDB]

DC wanted another Emerald Twilight level spike in sales. Geoff pitched the Hal return. Then to be fair, Kyle gets an Ion ongoing series that... Geoff almost immediately out of the gate forces into being only a maxi-series so he can make Kyle a normal Green Lantern again and basically get lost in the GLC ensemble book for years. Which is weird because Geoff himself made Kyle into Ion in Infinite Crisis.

I think making Kyle into Ion was all well and good until it ran the risk of outshining his work with Hal in GL. Can't have that.

[MikeandRaph87]

Geoff stated in a CBR interview that he was approached by editorial and asked if he was a fan of Hal Jordan and if so would he be interested in pitching a return to the green lantern mantle. I am surprised that DC would want that assuming they would be all John Stewart because of the acclaimed cartoon. It appears that Hal Jordan fans got DC's attention and it even got a nod in other media.


I was not thrilled about Hal being included in the post-Infinite Crisis League and immediately replaced by John Stewart. I know that Dwayne McDuffie is the writer and head writer for the cartoon featuring John, but the blink and you miss it inclusion was irritating. I admit if its not a call for an iconic story John fits better organically but the bait switch miffed me.

[Andrew NDB]

The JL cartoons exposure for John Stewart never translated into sales for comics. And John as a character has been pretty toxic over the years. Every writer coming on has a completely different idea of who he is and immediately wants to redefine him. Then Geoff brought in the Marine background stuff from the cartoon which was largely incompatible with his earliest background in the comics, and most writers seemed only interested in the Marine stuff from that point on.

[MikeandRaph87]

The JL cartoons exposure for John Stewart never translated into sales for comics. And John as a character has been pretty toxic over the years. Every writer coming on has a completely different idea of who he is and immediately wants to redefine him. Then Geoff brought in the Marine background which was largely incompatible with his earliest background, and most writers seem only interested in that stuff.

Really? I assumed it did which is why Kyle was sent off into space and John was reoccurring ally to Hal not to mention allowing McDuffie to replace Hal so quickly.

John has also proved to be a vital part of the Justice League in Rebirth. Also, with Hal not having a title and it seems John is lead of a current single title among other green lanterns I assumed he was marketable.

Would it be said Kyle was not a strong sale on his own?

[Andrew NDB]

Really? I assumed it did which is why Kyle was sent off into space and John was reoccurring ally to Hal not to mention allowing McDuffie to replace Hal so quickly.

John has also proved to be a vital part of the Justice League in Rebirth. Also, with Hal not having a title and it seems John is lead of a current single title among other green lanterns I assumed he was marketable.

I'm not sure why you're debating his worth as a character. I just mean his toxicity as a character in terms of what he's all about... because that radically always changed depending on who was writing him. The crying, self-doubting John Stewart who blew up Xanshi in "Cosmic Odyssey" is hardly the same wide-eyed activist architect who appeared in the 70s GL comics. The deeply philosophical John Stewart from "Mosaic" is hardly anything like the hardened ex-Marine Geoff started writing. Etc., etc..

Would it be said Kyle was not a strong sale on his own?

No, and it's pretty simple math. Kyle carried a solo Green Lantern series on his own, as basically the only Green Lantern for 11 years. 11 years. John Stewart was given an ongoing once, "Green Lantern: Mosaic," and it limped to about 20 issues before being cancelled.

And as far as JLA goes, Morrison loved writing for Kyle and some of the best Kyle stuff happened during Morrison's "JLA" relaunch.

[MikeandRaph87]

I gotcha now. Not debating anything. Just trying to figure out the mindset of DC executives is all. I suppose having the cartoon GL, the GL fans have clamored for redeemed, and the torchbearer all active simultaneously sales could take off and go according to who sales best. Making Kyle Ion and later the sole White Lantern make Kyle special for his fans.I guess that is what is going on with Hal right now, he has a ring generated by his own will power while only one other ring is active without the central power battery and is on standby to swoop in when needed. Hal may be experiencing that as I wait for another title for him instead of the diverse lanterns focus.

I thought Leo said Morrison didn't care for Kyle? In reading through Kyle did have a couple of big moments in Rock of Ages and interacting with Luthor in World War III. He also was the one who got them restored in The Obsidian Age and for some reason Batman thought Hal would be best choice to lead in Soul War because of no working relationship with Hal( which seems quite odd considering) just before Kyle was switched out for John. Kyle comes off as liberal and annoying. Hard to like especially as a Hal fan.

[Andrew NDB]

I thought Leo said Morrison didn't care for Kyle?

No, Morrison has gone on record as famously loving writing for Kyle. Particularly because he was "green" and still figuring things out as a Green Lantern.

In reading through Kyle did have a couple of big moments in Rock of Ages and interacting with Luthor in World War III. He also was the one who got them restored in The Obsidian Age and for some reason Batman thought Hal would be best choice to lead in Soul War because of no working relationship with Hal( which seems quite odd considering) just before Kyle was switched out for John. Kyle comes off as liberal and annoying. Hard to like especially as a Hal fan.

Well, Kyle was when Judd Winnick got his hands on him for a good while. But that's what happens when Judd Winnick gets his hands on anything.

[MikeandRaph87]

No, Morrison has gone on record as famously loving writing for Kyle. Particularly because he was "green" and still figuring things out as a Green Lantern.



Well, Kyle was when Judd Winnick got his hands on him for a good while. But that's what happens when Judd Winnick gets his hands on anything.

I really don't like him for simple reason of bringing Jason Todd back. He was prominent for a few years then disappeared from the scene. I have been holding back, but Kyle was the gay rights activist years before it was the cool thing to be. Kyle's behavior under Joe Kelly was easy to turn me off. Granted this guy also teased Batman and Wonder Woman having a romance.

I also read titles based on what characters are in it. If Hal is in the lead I am buying. If it's like it is now with Mullein, Baz or Cruz playing second fiddle to John Stewart I will keep it dropped. It needs the character I am invested in for me to buy. It may be a problem for Green Lantern as a whole. Will people buy because it's Green Lantern or does it depend on who is in the title? Some buy for only Kyle. Some will only for Hal like me. Others John. You might no matter who is judging to your run goin back to Alan Scott.

[Leo656]

I thought Leo said Morrison didn't care for Kyle?

That was just assumption on my part. I've honestly never heard Morrison speak to that. To me Kyle's characterization just felt "off" in JLA compared to his solo book, and I'm aware that Morrison didn't exactly get his "dream cast" on JLA just in general - he got close, but some of the characters he wanted were off-limits due to editorial, and he got stuck with Electric Superman for a chunk of it who he REALLY did not want but made the best of. So I just sort of assumed he wasn't a big fan of Kyle and would've rather had Hal, but if Morrison says otherwise I'm not gonna fight him on it.

I have been holding back, but Kyle was the gay rights activist years before it was the cool thing to be.

I'm not sure why that's "bad". Granted it's become incredibly overdone nowadays but at the time it hadn't been completely forced yet. Kids being beaten to death by their peers for being gay was still a semi-regular headline in the news in that era so it's not altogether surprising that someone in comics would address the issue.

Not altogether different from the various "don't be racist" comics from the '70s and whatnot. Comics have always addressed that kind of stuff - GL in fact was something of a forerunner of it during the Green Lantern/Green Arrow days - but they used to have a more delicate hand in doing so.

It's not that I have a problem with that sort of thing on its face, it's when it becomes a company-wide mandate that EVERYTHING needs to dive into that sort of stuff because it's "important", to the point where it's popping up in everything, is when it gets on my nerves. Therefore Winick's GL run didn't really make me blink. It was practically understated compared to what goes on nowadays.

[MikeandRaph87]

I know he was denied Hawkman who was experiencing a convoluted mess at the time, created Zauriel as a winged ancient weapon user, in his place. I have not read commentary beyond that.

From the bits that I read about it Kyle was acting absurd running off into space mad at humanity. It was just commentary to get people talking and made Kyle look ridiculous. There were better ways to take Kyle off the board so John could get off the bench.

Aside from 'Gorilla Warfare' arc in 1992 is there any good interaction between Hal and Wally? Wally shares pages with both Kyle and John, but does not seem to get it with Hal.

[IMJ]

Byrne's run was great, short as it was. Then it pretty much became "The Jurgens Era", and Jurgens was really great too

I love Jurgens. And his pencil work is great - loved his involvement in Armageddon 2001 too. I sort of look at that long-batch of Superman books that span the Byrne and Jurgens era with the same level of esteem as that basically 100-issue run of ASM that transitioned us from McFarlane to Larsen to Bagley and almost all of it was just high-quality comics.

Back then you could get excited about when they'd put a subtitle to an arc on a book - you know "part one of six". I remember that there was a feeling that even stuff like the "Dark Knight's Over Metropolis" issues felt huge (and rightfully so on that one - those books featured a continuity monster event that most people don't pay attention to with the Kyrptonite ring).

I remember that the "Soul Search" arc felt like it was an entire event. And all it really did was present another fun story-arc. No reboots, no relaunches, no renumbering needed. That was a great era for Superman as far as readable books go. And then even obviously later into Jurgens defining run on the books.

The JL cartoons exposure for John Stewart never translated into sales for comics. And John as a character has been pretty toxic over the years. Every writer coming on has a completely different idea of who he is and immediately wants to redefine him. Then Geoff brought in the Marine background stuff from the cartoon which was largely incompatible with his earliest background in the comics, and most writers seemed only interested in the Marine stuff from that point on.

I really like John Stewart as a character. But honestly it was the JLA series that really put me into that fandom. I've got the Mosaic books around here too - fished them out of bins years ago, but haven't read 'em. Green Lantern to me is that era of Marz and Bright and so on. And then again the Sinestro Corp stuff until I got sick of the "rainbow world".

[Leo656]

I know he was denied Hawkman who was experiencing a convoluted mess at the time, created Zauriel as a winged ancient weapon user, in his place. I have not read commentary beyond that.

From the bits that I read about it Kyle was acting absurd running off into space mad at humanity. It was just commentary to get people talking and made Kyle look ridiculous. There were better ways to take Kyle off the board so John could get off the bench.


Yeah, Hawkman was one of the biggest ones Grant wanted but couldn't have. Hawkman has to have THE most convoluted and tangled history in the entire DCU, with the Legion of Super-Heroes coming in a close second.

And I'unno, there were definitely better ways to write out Kyle for a minute, but let's be honest, we've all had at least one "I don't want to live on this planet anymore!" moment, and he had the means to actually act out on that impulse, so he did. So it was heavy-handed, but believable.

I mean, Kyle was always rather impulsive anyways. And being a super-hero wasn't something he aspired to, it got dropped on him. So getting a bit out of sorts when something really bad happens to someone he cares about, and being like "Why am I risking my life over and over again to protect these people when so many of them are such assholes?" is a pretty human reaction. Granted, they could've easily just had Superman give him a pep talk or something and that would me a much more conventional resolution to what he was feeling, but clearly they wanted to go with something else.

It definitely didn't play smooth with everyone, but that's the kind of thing that happens when you make it a point to write super-heroes as if they're people and not archetypes. I do agree that it wasn't Kyle's proudest moment but I also don't think it was intended to be; rather, I think it more or less came off exactly as it was meant to. It did feel rather abrupt to me, however. But then again, I'd only recently gotten back into collecting at that point so it felt like I'd just started following him again and suddenly he was gone. So it was more about that than the story itself, for me.

I love Jurgens. And his pencil work is great - loved his involvement in Armageddon 2001 too. I sort of look at that long-batch of Superman books that span the Byrne and Jurgens era with the same level of esteem as that basically 100-issue run of ASM that transitioned us from McFarlane to Larsen to Bagley and almost all of it was just high-quality comics.

Back then you could get excited about when they'd put a subtitle to an arc on a book - you know "part one of six". I remember that there was a feeling that even stuff like the "Dark Knight's Over Metropolis" issues felt huge (and rightfully so on that one - those books featured a continuity monster event that most people don't pay attention to with the Kyrptonite ring).

I remember that the "Soul Search" arc felt like it was an entire event. And all it really did was present another fun story-arc. No reboots, no relaunches, no renumbering needed. That was a great era for Superman as far as readable books go. And then even obviously later into Jurgens defining run on the books.


Those were definitely the days. I mean not to humblebrag, but I own and have read EVERY Superman comic from '86 through around 2008, except for a one-shot or mini-series here or there, and between TPBs and collected editions I've read plenty of stuff from 1938 and onward, too. And NOTHING comes close to the Byrne/Jurgens era. Although credit must be given to Ordway, Roger Stern, and others as well since they were all working together all those years. It was such a tight ship and a smooth ride; coordinating four monthly Superman books the way they did in the early/mid-90s had to have been a nightmare, but the execution was incredible. Each book having its own characters and plot points but things weaving in and out organically from week to week and one book to the next was so silky-smooth. I don't know how they managed it, especially for almost a decade - aside from the fact that they had all those exhaustive group meetings for that purpose. SO much work involved, but they pulled it off and made some real magic.

Jurgens is my sentimental all-time favorite writer/artist. There's a reason he always gets tapped whenever they do a "Let's fix the mess we've made of our universe" type story, he has an uncanny knack for that kind of thing. But he's also great at the smaller and more "human" moments, too. Add on the fact that many people say he's probably the nicest guy in the business, you've got an all-around winner.

I mean, nobody's perfect. He mostly has two stock heads he draws - one male and one female - and distinguishes the characters mostly by hairstyle. And he always used to have Superman say "Whoa!" a little bit too much. :lol: Which isn't a big deal but once you notice it, you can't un-notice it. But he's got a really dynamic style and really nails the fluid motion of the characters. He really knows how to capture a moment and put over what you're supposed to feel when you look at the page, whether it's a Big Moment or a smaller one.

As a kid, I didn't always pay close attention to who was writing or drawing what book. But that's how I started; I'd be reading the four Superman books, one a week, and I liked all of them just fine but the "Superman"-titled book Jurgens was writing and drawing just stood out as being quite a bit better than Adventures of Superman, Action Comics, and Superman: Man of Steel. Those other books were good, too, but I was immediately drawn to Jurgens over the rest. I remember the contrast in his art over Jon Bogdanov's art, for example - which I REALLY did not like - and I pretty much came to the conclusion that Jurgens was the best Superman artist I'd ever seen, and Bogdanov was the worst (although somehow, I've definitely seen a LOT worse than Bogdanov since then, and that's a shame). So that's when I started to really distinguish between writers and artists.

I mean, "Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey", man. That series - and those covers! - was just a masterwork. The story, the art... it's as good as comics get. And I don't think it would've been as good in lesser hands. Jurgens also did that wonderful "Superman/Aliens" cross-over, too, which doesn't get talked about NEARLY as much as it should.

I never met him, but I do have some comics signed by him that my Dad got me off of QVC or something back in the day. So that's awesome.

[Andrew NDB]

Hunter/Prey was a huge event to me, maybe in the same way Vengeance of Bane II was. And I was looking forward to it ever since that image of Doomsday laughing while strapped to that asteroid. Also, let's not short Brett Breeding as an inker. Nobody made Jurgens' pencils pop (including Jurgens himself) quite like him. Jurgens/Breeding on a cover meant it was a power team. Dixon/Nolan/Hanna, too.

*edit: Also, the Doomsday: Year One annual! Doomsday gets a GL ring!

And Superman/Aliens was great... though, man... what a missed opportunity to show what a Superman grown chestburster would be like (a drone with Kryptonian powers? man....). Still, it was funny to see him basically just be able to wretch it out of his chest like a loogie.

Batman vs. Predator (only the 1st one) and Batman vs. Aliens... now that's pure gold.

[Leo656]

Good lord, yeah. All of that.

Rarely in my LIFE have I been so captivated by a comic as I was by Hunter/Prey. Not just finding out Doomsday's origins, which turned out to be way cooler than anyone ever guessed (MOST people just assumed he was a drone Brainiac had left behind as a failsafe, which would've been "fine" but not AS good); but just all of it. Cyborg Superman's return and his attempted coup of Apokolips. Doomsday vs. Darkseid... and Darkseid LOSES! Waverider, back when he was everywhere. The fights... the fights! The whole Superman vs. Doomsday conflict becoming a cosmic event spanning multiple PLANETS (and even time itself). The first time we see Doomsday "evolve" to protect himself from harm. Superman and that f*cking laser sword. Those f*cking COVERS. Lois in lingerie.

And maybe the best part, just the characterization of Superman. Some of the best ever. "I never had any reason to be afraid of anything... until I died. And I just can't live with it. I have to put this demon to rest, no matter what it takes." For one thing, he's never really shown to be afraid of anything, and further, he's rarely so proactive. The threats always come to him; this time, the Prey becomes the Hunter. Lois being all, "But what if he IS back? What if there's more? You're just gonna die all over again!" And he's like, "Maybe. But I really don't have any choice." For all he knows there's a whole planet full of Doomsdays out there, somewhere. "Don't care. I've got to end this, one Doomsday or a million." No back-up, no Justice League... just a Mother Box, Waverider and his "I can advise but not get involved" spiel. And still, he doesn't even blink. Even when Waverider tells him straight, "You technically CAN'T win this; Doomsday's evolved beyond you. You Are Going To Die." And Superman's just like "Maybe. Or maybe I won't. Either way, this ends."

Nobody ever wrote a better Superman than Jurgens. And that mini captures Why completely perfectly.

I still have the Laser Sword Superman vs. Doomsday two-pack from the Kenner "Man of Steel" toy line. Excellent stuff.

- Big fan of that Doomsday Annual, too. We knew so little about him back then. We knew the origin, we knew how he ended up on Earth, but almost nothing in-between. So that was exciting stuff.

- Brett Breeding was definitely the best inker for Jurgens by a mile, although Joe Rubenstein came very close; sometimes at a glance, you could hardly tell, but Brett's lines were much more "smooth" and he really made Dan's artwork pop. They were a phenomenal team.

By comparison, the inker on Superman/Aliens - Kevin Nowlan, I think? - had such a rough and gritty style that Dan's pencils were almost unrecognizable. Like you could recognize his poses and layouts, but his faces especially were completely different in that book. It totally fit the story, though, and I'm sure that's why they went with that inker for that project. It's just interesting, though; anyone who doesn't respect the input of the inker can look at that book, and an issue of Hunter/Prey, and recognize how two different inkers can completely change the way a penciller's artwork comes off in the final product. Definitely not "just tracers". :)

[IMJ]

Yeah, Hawkman was one of the biggest ones Grant wanted but couldn't have. Hawkman has to have THE most convoluted and tangled history in the entire DCU, with the Legion of Super-Heroes coming in a close second.

And I'unno, there were definitely better ways to write out Kyle for a minute, but let's be honest, we've all had at least one "I don't want to live on this planet anymore!" moment, and he had the means to actually act out on that impulse, so he did. So it was heavy-handed, but believable.

I mean, Kyle was always rather impulsive anyways. And being a super-hero wasn't something he aspired to, it got dropped on him. So getting a bit out of sorts when something really bad happens to someone he cares about, and being like "Why am I risking my life over and over again to protect these people when so many of them are such assholes?" is a pretty human reaction. Granted, they could've easily just had Superman give him a pep talk or something and that would me a much more conventional resolution to what he was feeling, but clearly they wanted to go with something else.

It definitely didn't play smooth with everyone, but that's the kind of thing that happens when you make it a point to write super-heroes as if they're people and not archetypes. I do agree that it wasn't Kyle's proudest moment but I also don't think it was intended to be; rather, I think it more or less came off exactly as it was meant to. It did feel rather abrupt to me, however. But then again, I'd only recently gotten back into collecting at that point so it felt like I'd just started following him again and suddenly he was gone. So it was more about that than the story itself, for me.



Those were definitely the days. I mean not to humblebrag, but I own and have read EVERY Superman comic from '86 through around 2008, except for a one-shot or mini-series here or there, and between TPBs and collected editions I've read plenty of stuff from 1938 and onward, too. And NOTHING comes close to the Byrne/Jurgens era. Although credit must be given to Ordway, Roger Stern, and others as well since they were all working together all those years. It was such a tight ship and a smooth ride; coordinating four monthly Superman books the way they did in the early/mid-90s had to have been a nightmare, but the execution was incredible. Each book having its own characters and plot points but things weaving in and out organically from week to week and one book to the next was so silky-smooth. I don't know how they managed it, especially for almost a decade - aside from the fact that they had all those exhaustive group meetings for that purpose. SO much work involved, but they pulled it off and made some real magic.

Jurgens is my sentimental all-time favorite writer/artist. There's a reason he always gets tapped whenever they do a "Let's fix the mess we've made of our universe" type story, he has an uncanny knack for that kind of thing. But he's also great at the smaller and more "human" moments, too. Add on the fact that many people say he's probably the nicest guy in the business, you've got an all-around winner.

I mean, nobody's perfect. He mostly has two stock heads he draws - one male and one female - and distinguishes the characters mostly by hairstyle. And he always used to have Superman say "Whoa!" a little bit too much. :lol: Which isn't a big deal but once you notice it, you can't un-notice it. But he's got a really dynamic style and really nails the fluid motion of the characters. He really knows how to capture a moment and put over what you're supposed to feel when you look at the page, whether it's a Big Moment or a smaller one.

As a kid, I didn't always pay close attention to who was writing or drawing what book. But that's how I started; I'd be reading the four Superman books, one a week, and I liked all of them just fine but the "Superman"-titled book Jurgens was writing and drawing just stood out as being quite a bit better than Adventures of Superman, Action Comics, and Superman: Man of Steel. Those other books were good, too, but I was immediately drawn to Jurgens over the rest. I remember the contrast in his art over Jon Bogdanov's art, for example - which I REALLY did not like - and I pretty much came to the conclusion that Jurgens was the best Superman artist I'd ever seen, and Bogdanov was the worst (although somehow, I've definitely seen a LOT worse than Bogdanov since then, and that's a shame). So that's when I started to really distinguish between writers and artists.

I mean, "Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey", man. That series - and those covers! - was just a masterwork. The story, the art... it's as good as comics get. And I don't think it would've been as good in lesser hands. Jurgens also did that wonderful "Superman/Aliens" cross-over, too, which doesn't get talked about NEARLY as much as it should.

I never met him, but I do have some comics signed by him that my Dad got me off of QVC or something back in the day. So that's awesome.

YEEEsss man. So much of this, yes. Even the Bogdanov comment :lol:
I will say though that you hung in there with Superman long after I did. I'd say my collection spans the Byrne MOS era through an issue or two after the Return of Superman wrapped up. I will say that I'd like to put together all of the books that Busiek was involved in years later. I'm a big Busiek fan.

Hunter/Prey was a huge event to me, maybe in the same way Vengeance of Bane II was. And I was looking forward to it ever since that image of Doomsday laughing while strapped to that asteroid. Also, let's not short Brett Breeding as an inker. Nobody made Jurgens' pencils pop (including Jurgens himself) quite like him. Jurgens/Breeding on a cover meant it was a power team. Dixon/Nolan/Hanna, too.

*edit: Also, the Doomsday: Year One annual! Doomsday gets a GL ring!

And Superman/Aliens was great... though, man... what a missed opportunity to show what a Superman grown chestburster would be like (a drone with Kryptonian powers? man....). Still, it was funny to see him basically just be able to wretch it out of his chest like a loogie.

Batman vs. Predator (only the 1st one) and Batman vs. Aliens... now that's pure gold.

Loved Hunter Prey. And yeah it did feel like a big deal when it came out. That prestige format - an honest, story-driven follow-up to Doomsday. I had dropped the Superman books by then, but I did buy that as well - they are still in my boxes now. As to Leo's points about Jurgens art? Yeah I loved it too. Loved his Armageddon work, loved that title. That felt like an honest big event as well.

I actually had a letter published in an issue of Superman that I wrote to them about deciphering who Monarch was. I had an awesome theory. I thought I'd have won a "Baldy Award" for it to be honest! :lol: That was the first letter I had printed in a comic!

[Leo656]

Heh heh... "The Baldy Awards". Those were the days.

I actually didn't drop the Superman books on purpose, and never actually completely. We were going through a lot of personal shakeups at the time - broke, then homeless, then parents split up, then homeless again, then couch-surfing for a while, and then finally, some stability - so I ended up dropping ALL my comics for a couple years... except Sonic the Hedgehog, primarily because it was cheap and self-contained and therefore very easy to keep up with.

My devoted collecting at that point ended right at the start of the "Superman: The Doomsday Wars" mini-series; I got the first issue and that was like the last one I got for a long time, because it was right when sh*t was hitting the fan at home. Then I picked up an occasional random issue during the "Electric Superman" shake-up, but I was totally out of the loop. I tried to get back to "regular" collecting with "Superman Forever" and the beginning of the Dominus arc, when he got his old costume and powers back, but stuff kept getting in the way.

Then in 2000 my wife introduced me to the comic shop she'd always gone to, and so from then until 2008 I was more hardcore than I'd ever been. By then I was an adult with a job so I was able to pick up with the contemporary books and then very quickly fill in all the back issues I'd missed.

So, just curious, who'd you think Monarch was? I couldn't even hazard a guess, back then. I was still learning my way around the full DCU back in 1991, so all I could figure was, "It most likely won't be Superman." :lol: And that was like the safest of all bets.

In hindsight... it was VERY clearly supposed to be Captain Atom. :lol: Even in Armageddon #2, all of the artwork with Monarch's revealed face was VERY obviously redrawn in a panic at the last minute, to make it Hawk and not Atom. As a kid, I knew it looked... "off", but I couldn't speak to why.

[IMJ]

Heh heh... "The Baldy Awards". Those were the days.

I actually didn't drop the Superman books on purpose, and never actually completely. We were going through a lot of personal shakeups at the time - broke, then homeless, then parents split up, then homeless again, then couch-surfing for a while, and then finally, some stability - so I ended up dropping ALL my comics for a couple years... except Sonic the Hedgehog, primarily because it was cheap and self-contained and therefore very easy to keep up with.

My devoted collecting at that point ended right at the start of the "Superman: The Doomsday Wars" mini-series; I got the first issue and that was like the last one I got for a long time, because it was right when sh*t was hitting the fan at home. Then I picked up an occasional random issue during the "Electric Superman" shake-up, but I was totally out of the loop. I tried to get back to "regular" collecting with "Superman Forever" and the beginning of the Dominus arc, when he got his old costume and powers back, but stuff kept getting in the way.

Then in 2000 my wife introduced me to the comic shop she'd always gone to, and so from then until 2008 I was more hardcore than I'd ever been. By then I was an adult with a job so I was able to pick up with the contemporary books and then very quickly fill in all the back issues I'd missed.

So, just curious, who'd you think Monarch was? I couldn't even hazard a guess, back then. I was still learning my way around the full DCU back in 1991, so all I could figure was, "It most likely won't be Superman." :lol: And that was like the safest of all bets.

In hindsight... it was VERY clearly supposed to be Captain Atom. :lol: Even in Armageddon #2, all of the artwork with Monarch's revealed face was VERY obviously redrawn in a panic at the last minute, to make it Hawk and not Atom. As a kid, I knew it looked... "off", but I couldn't speak to why.

Dude - if you saw the theory I put together... lmao! I even found panels in a copy of one of the Superman books that would have explained how Monarch got his name, I found panels that correlated the art design of the shadowy black figure from Armageddon 2001 to a character in the same book. The editors on Superman were like in complete shock in reply to the letter....

I'd tell you outright, but I can honestly see you getting excited at how uncanny this all was simply by pulling two issues of Superman to thumb through from your collection..... hahhahahaa

[Andrew NDB]

I actually didn't drop the Superman books on purpose, and never actually completely.

I did. I think I made it from the end-ish of Reign of the Superman all the way to a little bit past the wedding of Superman and Lois, then I tapped out. I think it was a little bit of the Batman comics' fault (by around this point I was getting disgusted that there never was any actual change in the Batman comics... only the illusion of change), and then them quickly resolving the Superman Red/Blue thing and then giving Superman a hair cut was the final straw for me.

[Leo656]

Long time ago my wife and I read the entire Superman run together from Byrne's first issue all the way up through Infinite Crisis, and she was SO mad when Clark cut off his mullet. :lol:

I have to admit, even though the Electric Superman stuff (and then the part where he split into TWO people, Superman Red and Superman Blue) was NOT a good idea and never should've been done... going back to it after the status quo was restored and it was "just another storyline"... parts of it weren't altogether awful. Like some of the writers (like Jurgens) tried really, REALLY hard to make it work.

The thing is, at the time they weren't selling it as "just another temporary storyline", they were outright saying "This is the new normal, get used to it" and people were 100% not okay with that. It's easier to get through it nowadays, knowing it didn't last that long. At the time, though, it was infuriating.

I hated how they ended it - they kind of didn't; they just had him stop the Millennium Giants and "die", then wake up back to normal with his old powers and everything. No explanation beyond "Maybe this was my 'reward' for saving the world again", which was... odd. Like he didn't say outright "God put me where he wanted me to be", but... that's kinda how it sounded. And that was a bit strange. I mean, I know he was raised Christian and everything (and has literally fought his way through the Afterlife more than once) but it's still a bit odd to see/read him even imply stuff like that.

So yeah, really sh*tty and abrupt ending to a story that never should've been done in the first place. But the ending (or non-ending), to be blunt, was mostly the fans' fault. We/they rejected Electric Superman so hard and insisted we wanted him back to normal Right Now, at any cost, that the editors at DC were like "Well... here ya go, then." They probably would have come up with a proper ending if they'd had some more room to do so, but we honestly didn't give them much choice.

Having him just "magically" back to normal was a cop-out, but... we DID say we didn't care how it happened as long as it happened, and they took that very literally and gave us exactly what we asked for. So... yeah.

That Dominus arc immediately after, though. SO good. And then "King of the World". Again, SO GOOD.

[IMJ]

I PM'd you two about the Armageddon thing. Hope you get a kick out of it enough to pull the two comics and see what I was pointing out!

[MikeandRaph87]

Yeah, Hawkman was one of the biggest ones Grant wanted but couldn't have. Hawkman has to have THE most convoluted and tangled history in the entire DCU, with the Legion of Super-Heroes coming in a close second.

And I'unno, there were definitely better ways to write out Kyle for a minute, but let's be honest, we've all had at least one "I don't want to live on this planet anymore!" moment, and he had the means to actually act out on that impulse, so he did. So it was heavy-handed, but believable.

I mean, Kyle was always rather impulsive anyways. And being a super-hero wasn't something he aspired to, it got dropped on him. So getting a bit out of sorts when something really bad happens to someone he cares about, and being like "Why am I risking my life over and over again to protect these people when so many of them are such assholes?" is a pretty human reaction. Granted, they could've easily just had Superman give him a pep talk or something and that would me a much more conventional resolution to what he was feeling, but clearly they wanted to go with something else.

It definitely didn't play smooth with everyone, but that's the kind of thing that happens when you make it a point to write super-heroes as if they're people and not archetypes. I do agree that it wasn't Kyle's proudest moment but I also don't think it was intended to be; rather, I think it more or less came off exactly as it was meant to. It did feel rather abrupt to me, however. But then again, I'd only recently gotten back into collecting at that point so it felt like I'd just started following him again and suddenly he was gone. So it was more about that than the story itself, for me.

It's still a mess judging my the current Justice League run with the zombified Hawkman controlled by Hawkwoman while Hawkgirl exist independently. Why not just stick with the Earth-1 Thanagarian cop who became a museum curator alongside his wife Shiera alias Hawkwoman?

Did Grant ever say what his wishlist roster would have been?

For me I would stick with the core and that would be it. Superman,Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, and Hawkman. Hal would definitely be GL, but Flash I feel like it would have to be Barry if I am going for iconic even though he bores me and I have 40 Wally West featured comics. The only taboo thing I might do is make Aquaman the chairperson because he is a ruler and would be best equipped, not to mention he needs more to do as far as being effective and putting him in charge of Detroit then leaving himself to avoid hypocrisy? He needs some redemption in that.


Kyle I can only truly read when he is a co-star to Hal or he can be the one that I tolerate in JLA before he stormed off. Perhaps it is my conservative nature in thinking Kyle overrated, but it was nice to see John get some attention other than 'that is the guy who's overconfidence blew up Xanshi' or 'we need a black character so let's use him' instead of truly allowing the character to grow. That is why I thought after what happened with Xanshi and Katma Tui in the same year real time he could have had some great character depth. Also, Katma when deciding to settle on Earth she disguised herself to be accepted in other words hid her red alien complexation with an African American skin tone. Would that be considered racist today? Why did she feel the need to do that when Starfire just mingled with the population knowing she was an alien and any association Dick had with her would jeopardize his secret identity? Furthermore John's identity was public. It just seemed like an unnecessary accomodation to fit in.

[Leo656]

Grant's wish for JLA was to start with the original Core Seven - Superman, Batman, Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Aquaman - and then quickly expand up to 12 with other JLA standouts like Hawkman, Green Arrow, Plastic Man and a few I can't remember off the top of my head. The intention was always for a few of the "second tier" members to be rotated occasionally but to always have the Core Seven be consistent and unchanging.

But the Knights of the Round Table was the specific blueprint he was using for his JLA. He said that from the beginning. Which guy represented which Knight, I doubt even he gave it that much thought. :lol: Or maybe he did and I missed it. But that was his long-game plan, 12 members at any given time with seven constants and a few rotating in and out. That's more or less exactly what he DID do, but he didn't get to use the specific characters he wanted for various reasons of legality.

To your Aquaman idea, the problem with that is the very fact that he IS responsible for 3/4s of Planet Earth already is why he's generally never a JLA member for very long. "I ain't got time to go hopping around the universe with you dumbasses, I'm f*cking busy." He's only ever even a member when they pretty much force him into it, and frankly, for his character that makes perfect sense. He'd NEVER be the leader.

Matter of fact, he WAS, very briefly, in that Detroit League era you hate so much. He was the one who put that League together and ran it very briefly. Then - as always - he quit because he was just too busy with everything else to be a JLA member, let alone the leader. To him, his responsibilities to the oceans and Atlantis take way more priority than the rest of the world, or even the Universe. He's got some serious tunnel vision with that, which is why he always butts heads with the rest of the JLA. Even if they tried to make him the leader, he'd never do it. He actually kinda hates being in the JLA. He'd never wanna run it.

I actually loved it when he initially rejected Batman's offer to join the League in the movie, because that's exactly how Aquaman would react to that situation. He only joined up pretty much when left with no other option. Like, that's SO f*cking Aquaman. Aside from Mamoa being a "dudebro", his attitude towards being a team player were 100% on point in that movie.

[MikeandRaph87]

Do you feel like the Justice League should be exempt from continuity interference? It's why Wonder Woman
was originally written out for seven years. I mean, the reason that the Satellite era fell apart was because of Hal temporarily giving up his ring, Barry on trial, Batman leading the Outsiders, later Aquaman was searching for Mera and had to avoid being a hypocrite. There is more, but you see by the months leading up to COIE practically everyone was too busy for the League. That is the only reason it chased the New Teen Titans formula.

Much later on the post-Infinite Crisis League lasted about 30 issues until characters were made unavailable. It became The Titans with Black Canary and Congorilla co-starring. Why did this League become not much longer than Detroit? Continuity interference.

Yeah, I am a Detroit hater. It lasted from #233-261. #240 was a flashback. So 28 issues and only about 7 arcs. Aquaman quits in #245 and the next issue they are booted from Detroit. So #247-261 are Happy Harbor/ New York City based. Batman is even brought in for sales the chairperson in #250. Guess Bruce can't always help sales. The only arc of note is the Flame of Py'tar that was used in Desperate featured episodes of Justice League, 'Hearts and Minds'. Which brings us full circle. How do you feel Kilowag and Katma Tui were presented in the cartoon. Obviously, it was my introduction to the characters. Also, the alternate reality Seaboard City, is Coast City?

[Leo656]

No, I definitely prefer it when a line has a tight continuity across the board. That's why the 1986 through 1996 era is my all-time favorite era of DC comics, bar none. What happened in any single book had a ripple effect across the entire line. What happened in Superman affected what happened in Green Lantern, which affected what happened in Guy Gardner, which affected what happened in Justice League which affected what happened in Wonder Woman, and so on down the line. That's what I want to see. It truly makes the DCU feel "alive" and that all these characters are inhabiting the same space.

If I'm buying into the concept of your entire line having a cohesive continuity where nothing happens in a vacuum, then there's no point for a flagship book to be "non-canon". It breaks the immersion. It only benefits those who choose to only read one or two books and ignore all else. And those readers do exist, but history has shown that most DC fans prefer canon and "ripple effect" continuity. Whenever they start doing "non-canon" stuff in the primary books, sales tank for all the books. There's offshoot books for self-contained non-canon stories. Like that was literally the entire point of "JLA Classified", to do stories that only vaguely fit into canon and had no immediate effect on the present-day continuity of the JLA ongoing titles.

Obviously it makes things more difficult for the writers when several dozen books all have to cross-reference each other. But that's what makes the DC Universe a "Universe" and not simply a line of disconnected random sh*t that has no real affect or stakes. It's not like it's impossible to coordinate a shared universe, they did it for a decade and did it VERY well.

It's not that there's no room for non-canon and self-contained books. But the MAIN ongoing titles should always be reasonably intertwined. Like if I read Aquaman and he gets his hand eaten off by piranha, and then I read JLA the same week and he still has two hands, I immediately call bullsh*t on that. Stuff like that immediately takes me out of everything completely. Why am I even bothering to keep up with multiple books if they may as well be taking place in completely different worlds entirely? If the Superman in "Superman" and the Superman in "JLA" aren't the same guy, then why do I really care about either one? Like if the JLA book ends up self-contained, did the Superman in JLA ever get killed by Doomsday, or is that "not canon" to JLA because it happened in his own book? And so on and so forth.

Frankly, I just wish the writers would work harder and communicate better. You CAN do a tight-knit universe with flawless continuity across the entire line, where what happens in Book A directly affects Book C which in turn carries into Book Z. Because again, the DCU from 1986 through 1996 is practically flawless in its cohesion. That is infinitely more satisfying to read than a bunch of little cartoon stories with no stakes and no continuity between them.

Having no continuity has some benefit for those folks who'd prefer to ONLY read, like, JLA and Green Lantern and Batman, and nothing else. But the fact is MOST DC fans care about the whole DCU and not little pieces of it. In which case, as history has shown, tight continuity is the majority preference.

[MikeandRaph87]

No, I definitely prefer it when a line has a tight continuity across the board. That's why the 1986 through 1996 era is my all-time favorite era of DC comics, bar none. What happened in any single book had a ripple effect across the entire line. What happened in Superman affected what happened in Green Lantern, which affected what happened in Guy Gardner, which affected what happened in Justice League which affected what happened in Wonder Woman, and so on down the line. That's what I want to see. It truly makes the DCU feel "alive" and that all these characters are inhabiting the same space.

If I'm buying into the concept of your entire line having a cohesive continuity where nothing happens in a vacuum, then there's no point for a flagship book to be "non-canon". It breaks the immersion. It only benefits those who choose to only read one or two books and ignore all else. And those readers do exist, but history has shown that most DC fans prefer canon and "ripple effect" continuity. Whenever they start doing "non-canon" stuff in the primary books, sales tank for all the books. There's offshoot books for self-contained non-canon stories. Like that was literally the entire point of "JLA Classified", to do stories that only vaguely fit into canon and had no immediate effect on the present-day continuity of the JLA ongoing titles.

Obviously it makes things more difficult for the writers when several dozen books all have to cross-reference each other. But that's what makes the DC Universe a "Universe" and not simply a line of disconnected random sh*t that has no real affect or stakes. It's not like it's impossible to coordinate a shared universe, they did it for a decade and did it VERY well.

It's not that there's no room for non-canon and self-contained books. But the MAIN ongoing titles should always be reasonably intertwined. Like if I read Aquaman and he gets his hand eaten off by piranha, and then I read JLA the same week and he still has two hands, I immediately call bullsh*t on that. Stuff like that immediately takes me out of everything completely. Why am I even bothering to keep up with multiple books if they may as well be taking place in completely different worlds entirely? If the Superman in "Superman" and the Superman in "JLA" aren't the same guy, then why do I really care about either one? Like if the JLA book ends up self-contained, did the Superman in JLA ever get killed by Doomsday, or is that "not canon" to JLA because it happened in his own book? And so on and so forth.

Frankly, I just wish the writers would work harder and communicate better. You CAN do a tight-knit universe with flawless continuity across the entire line, where what happens in Book A directly affects Book C which in turn carries into Book Z. Because again, the DCU from 1986 through 1996 is practically flawless in its cohesion. That is infinitely more satisfying to read than a bunch of little cartoon stories with no stakes and no continuity between them.

Having no continuity has some benefit for those folks who'd prefer to ONLY read, like, JLA and Green Lantern and Batman, and nothing else. But the fact is MOST DC fans care about the whole DCU and not little pieces of it. In which case, as history has shown, tight continuity is the majority preference.

I only read 3 DC books at a time. For the longest time I read Green Lantern, only the Hal Jordan focused one and Batgirl because it was Barbara Gordon under the cowl . I also read Justice League of America off and on. So I am one of those that you are referring to and I suppose why it would benefit me.

I read Detective Comics from #988 after the Tynion Batgirl squad angle ended up to the point Tamaki took over with #1034. I didn't like it when other storylines from other books were interfering with the book I was reading.

Now Hippoltya is in Justice League and I am supposed to know why without being told and question why Naomi is present. Continuity will no longer disrupt Wonder Woman from being involved only for Superman likely to be removed for that reason.

I look understand your reasoning. One aspect that I praise about both Ninja Turtles(2003) and Justice League is the continuity being so tight and episodic. It's a part of what makes both so good, you can see the interconnected pieces and character growth, almost have to watch it chronologically.

1986-1996 is my younger siblings favorite period of DC, but for a different reason. He likes the cast of characters in Justice League International and along with each Justice League titles has sets of the associated characters like Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, and Captain Atom. Also, the contrasting tone in the flagship team book despite the dark overtones and interweaving epics going on in the majority of the line. Also, continuity hampered Giffen putting together the Justice League with so many off the table. I read Denny offered Batman for further exposure for the new League. However, the rest of the major characters were preoccupied.

The first thing I need to know about films or shows is, which characters are involved? If its characters I enjoy I am all for it, if not I am lukewarm to disinterested. If Hal is not the lead I don't care. If Dick is in the Robin or Batman suits I am more interested than if he is in the Nightwing suit. Just as examples.

[Leo656]

I mean, I was there once upon a time. I originally only cared about reading Superman and Batman comics. Then I found Flash... then Green Lantern... and Justice League... then I got some "Who's Who in the DCU" books. And I'm like "Jesus... I've seriously been missing out. There's WAY more to love about DC than just Superman and Batman." Especially at that time. Just about EVERYTHING they put out over that decade was just f*cking incredible, with only a few rare exceptions.

After that, ignoring the rest of the DCU and only sticking to one or two characters just seemed... well, dumb. Obviously my favorites stayed my favorites. But I hate to think of all the great books I'd have missed - literally thousands of books - if I stayed in my "I only care about Superman and Batman" bubble.

Comics have definitely gotten prohibitively expensive in recent years, though, so I definitely couldn't do Now as I did Then for cost reasons. Even so, every single thing nowadays eventually gets a collected edition, and you can usually find those for sale used for like five bucks. So if I really wanted to get caught up right now, I easily could, I won't pretend I couldn't. I couldn't buy the single issues but if I were patient and thrifty I could buy a few trades and easily get filled in. In that regard, it's actually easier to get caught up now than ever before.

I mean, I love to read comics. Having to read more of them isn't exactly a punishment, for me. "Well, I have to read a lot of them to get what's going on." Alright. That's a feature, not a bug. It's more like you GET to read a lot of comics to get what's going on. :)

JL International definitely had some magic. I get Giffen's complaints about having to fit into the wider DCU, but to his credit, whatever gripes he had he still managed to put out a great book. That's the thing about writing mainstream comics that every writer has outspokenly struggled with at some time or other: By definition, it's a constant game of compromise.

[MikeandRaph87]

This is a sample of what I got in the postal mail today!

Flash volume 2 #1 and the four issues of Flash volume 2 and Green Lantern volume 3 that compromise the 'Gorilla Warfare' storyline.

[Andrew NDB]

You guys talk about continuity 1986 through 1996... with Green Lantern, its continuity from the 60s to about the first 2 or 3 years into Geoff Johns' regime was pretty well insulated from all things. "Crisis on Infinite Earths" didn't screw with GL even a tiny bit.

It wasn't until a ways into Geoff's stuff that you had guys going, "I want to write a completely different origin for Guy Gardner" and stuff like that. And suddenly every month was stuff like, "Everything you've ever known about ____ is WRONG!"

[Leo656]

That Flash run gets REALLY good with the Vandal Savage arc leading up to Issue #50, just FYI.

Spoiler Alert: Issue #50, if you don't already know, was the debut of Wally's "Metallic" Flash suit with the white eyes and no little boot wings. Some kinda S.T.A.R. Labs liquid metal fabric or... some such thing. Like Savage "kills" Wally and in the process his suit gets trashed, then Killg%re brings Wally back to life but his suit's still wrecked, so the McGee's whip him up that spiffy new one.

F*cking loved that suit. That was like one more symbol of Wally finally coming into being his own man and not just Barry's shadow.

Then one day in 2000-whatever they just started drawing him in Barry's suit again. Even though Barry's suit was destroyed in issue #49 and him getting the "metallic" one was a huge part of his character development. And everybody knew that.

See why I like strong continuity? :lol:

Anyways, yeah, that Flash run was awesome.

"Gorilla Warfare" is silly but harmless. Any Flash/Green Lantern team-up is pretty sure gold.

[Leo656]

You guys talk about continuity 1986 through 1996... with Green Lantern, its continuity from the 60s to about the first 2 or 3 years into Geoff Johns' regime was pretty well insulated from all things. "Crisis on Infinite Earths" didn't screw with GL even a tiny bit.

It wasn't until a ways into Geoff's stuff that you had guys going, "I want to write a completely different origin for Guy Gardner" and stuff like that. And suddenly every month was stuff like, "Everything you've ever known about ____ is WRONG!"

Yeah, it seems like Green Lantern and Batman almost always get through those reboot events almost scot-free. They always had very little change despite all of reality being rewritten. I noticed that even as a kid.

Batman got all kindsa f*cked up with the New 52 and the whole "four Robins in five years" or whatever bullsh*t. But Green Lantern pretty much picked up right where it'd been, aside from some of the stuff you mentioned.

And Guy Gardner's "Yesterday's Sins" origin was one of the best origins any DC character ever had. Put me in the f*cking room with whoever decided they could do better. F*cking with that was one of the worst things they ever did. That story explained literally EVERYTHING about what made Guy Gardner the human being that he was. You can't change it without making him a completely different person altogether.

But they did change it, completely.... yet he magically was the same guy despite having lived a completely different LIFE. Not possible. Dumb. Nonsense. Also, new origin sucked.

[MikeandRaph87]

You guys talk about continuity 1986 through 1996... with Green Lantern, its continuity from the 60s to about the first 2 or 3 years into Geoff Johns' regime was pretty well insulated from all things. "Crisis on Infinite Earths" didn't screw with GL even a tiny bit.

It wasn't until a ways into Geoff's stuff that you had guys going, "I want to write a completely different origin for Guy Gardner" and stuff like that. And suddenly every month was stuff like, "Everything you've ever known about ____ is WRONG!"

It's things like that which caused me to ignore Justice League Year One because it does not stick because of Black Canary's infusion and Wonder Woman's absence among other examples.

I noticed that Mark Waid wrote roughly 98 issues of Flash volume 2 not counting the 231-236 arc. I didn't realize it was that long. I believe it is a few more issues than John's run on Green Lantern that would be 6 issues of Rebirth, 69 issues pre-Flashpoint, and 20 which would total 95 installments until his bow out in GL vol.5#20.

I suspect Geoff Johns retooling of the mythos was more independent than a company-wide reboot. His story remained unaffected by Flashpoint asidefrom continuing with the same numbering after War of the Green Lanterns for the final 20 issues Johns scripted.

I was hoping that the post-Infinite Crisis League would allow Hal and Wally to interact. Alas, it was not to be. Aside from the Gorilla Warfare arc is there anything else out there? I assume that the closest might be Wally's appearance in Flash/Green Lantern: The Brave and the Bold?

[Leo656]

As mentioned previously, in "The Return of Barry Allen" arc leading into Flash #75, Wally asks Hal to verify that "Barry" is really Barry, because Hal would know better than anyone alive.

Hal concludes that "The ring says he's telling the truth... and so do I."

And "Barry" turned out to be Zoom with amnesia. So Hal AND his ring are f*cking morons, and accidentally, we have one of the Very First Clues on the way to Emerald Twilight that Hal is not all there in the head. :trazz:

I'm sure there were a couple others but that's the first one I can think of off the top of my head.

Actually, they were both in Justice League Europe. I never really followed that one but there ya go.

[MikeandRaph87]

As mentioned previously, in "The Return of Barry Allen" arc leading into Flash #75, Wally asks Hal to verify that "Barry" is really Barry, because Hal would know better than anyone alive.

Hal concludes that "The ring says he's telling the truth... and so do I."

And "Barry" turned out to be Zoom with amnesia. So Hal AND his ring are f*cking morons, and accidentally, we have one of the Very First Clues on the way to Emerald Twilight that Hal is not all there in the head. :trazz:

I'm sure there were a couple others but that's the first one I can think of off the top of my head.

Actually, they were both in Justice League Europe. I never really followed that one but there ya go.

Yeah, it was mere months before the Emerald Twilight swerve. How could the power ring not pick up the DNA not matching with Barry? With all of the comic book sci-fi technology and modern technology not being able to identify that its Thawne instead of Barry is hard to believe.

JLE? I have access to that, but never really looked into it.

Also, to an earlier statement, Giffen succeeded where Conway failed. He broadened the League beyond iconic American whites and it did not feel like a forced approach with a weakened League like Detroit floundered. In fact its the 1st 60 issues people remember which did not include the more memorable characters like Wonder Woman, Hal Jordan, Wally West and Aquaman. They were reoccurring or apart of offshot Leagues post-Breakdowns.I will always prefer the classic characters in the Satellite in fixed orbit 22,300 miles above Earth, but Giffen did one heck of a job.

Flash volume 2 wise, I know Vandal Savage is the big bad for the first 50 issues, but I only have the first two issues then skip to 19 rogue gathering then jump to 69,70 the Gorilla Warfare storyarc. Considering the length of Waid's run I am surprised by how little The Rouges are used. It made just be Underworld Unleashed and that's it. It's not until Johns run that the gray area of The Rogues is explored and the two generations of foes collide.

I read Tales of the Green Lantern Corps mini-series by Len Wein. It was Krona's second ever appearance and the debut of Nekron. I can see quite a bit of inspiration Johns took from this for his run.

[Leo656]

The Rogues were Barry's villains. Part of "making Wally his own man" was to give him his own rogues' gallery. So he didn't actually fight too many of Barry's old villains for a very long time. He either got his own villains or "new" versions of the old ones, for a while. Lots of the original Rogues, like Piper and Trickster, either reformed, retired, or both. Piper and Wally were very good friends, point of fact.

As for the ring not picking up that "Barry" was Thawne, short version is it had something to do with him being from the future. Like technically that story is the "first" Zoom story ever, in that it explains his origin for the first time. And as it would happen, it was WALLY who Zoom first fought, years before Zoom ever even met Barry Allen, all thanks to a glitch in time and a malfunctioning cosmic treadmill.

Basically, Thawne was originally a huge Barry Allen fanboy in the far future, to the point where he wanted to BE Barry Allen. He was the caretaker of the Flash Museum, and idolized Barry to the point where he restored the Cosmic Treadmill and spent a fortune getting plastic surgery to look like Barry, along with recreating the accident that gave Barry his powers. And I *believe* that part of that included "experimental gene therapy" to try and manipulate his DNA. I mean, it's Comic Book Science, it's nonsense but that's your answer. He basically did everything that Future Science allowed in order to completely become "Barry Allen" right down to a genetic level. Because he just loved Barry Allen soooooo much.

But then he found out that he was destined to become Zoom, Barry Allen's greatest enemy, and in fact be killed by Barry one day. That broke his brain, he had a meltdown, and tried to escape his "destiny" by going back in time to change it. But the treadmill malfunctioned, and he ended up in Wally's era and not Barry's. The stress of time travel scrambled his brain even more, and gave him severe temporary amnesia, to the point where he really believed he was Barry, at least for a while. Then when he remembered, he got the idea to literally replace Barry and disgrace his memory, with no one being the wiser. The ultimate revenge. Barry being dead by then, there was no way Thawne's "destiny" to become his enemy and die by his hands would ever happen.

Of course, Wally finally unlocked his full powers by removing the mental block he'd placed by himself (basically, Wally was always more powerful than Barry in theory, but he was so afraid of replacing him that he subconsciously forced himself to be far less powerful) and kicked Zoom's ass. Zoom went back to the future, got amnesia AGAIN, and forgot he'd ever met Wally West. From then going forward, history resumed as it had before, with Thawne eventually making it back to Barry's era to become his greatest villain, as was fate.

Really great story, my favorite Flash story ever.

But anyways. Since he'd fiddled with his DNA and his amnesia had him thinking he really was Barry, that would explain how Hal's ring didn't catch it. Point of fact, it was Jay Garrick who first got a whiff that something was wrong. I believe the point was to illustrate that magic rings are no substitute for old-fashioned intuition and a gut feeling something isn't right.

[MikeandRaph87]

When reading through Gorilla Warfare arc I see ads for Ganthet's Tale and promotion for The Third Law. It appears before volume 3 that The Guardians were generic and became a corrupted Jedi Council then.

In Tales of the Green Lantern Corps we see a Hal Jordan that has the never back down Maverick/Obi-Wan character we see in Green Lantern: Rebirth and beyond.

It's interesting to note how The Guardians of The Universe are supposedly immortal, but Korona manages to kill two of them. Then the suicide ritual going up against Hal in Emerald Twilight and finally Atrocious killed the Guardians Kyle revived. Long-living and hard to kill, but immortal? Not hardly.

[Leo656]

I guess "Immortal" in the sense of, they'd live "forever" unless killed by outside forces?

I mean, isn't that how Highlanders work? I'unno.

[Andrew NDB]

I guess "Immortal" in the sense of, they'd live "forever" unless killed by outside forces?

I mean, isn't that how Highlanders work? I'unno.

Exactly. Immortal doesn't mean invulnerable. Vampires are perfectly Immortal until they walk out into the sun or run into a guillotine.

[MikeandRaph87]

The three annuals of Tales of the Green Lantern Corps that was mentioned. Is it Hal Jordan and an ensemble of alien Green Lanterns? I ask because I read depending on who is behind what mask. I am glad that I took the recommendation of the Tales mini-series! The historical importance of Kronos and Nekron is notable in it. There are also 3 writers I will happily look at anything they did O'Neil, Englehart, and Wein do it was a pleasant surprise to find that Wein was the writer!

Again slightly off topic, why did Vandal Savage oppose Wally as an overarching villain the first 50 issues? I know that Jay Garrick individually and the JSA overall opposed Savage, but was wondering the narrative reasoning.

I do enjoy Return of Barry Allen, perfect passing of the torch story that will ever be written. I say that knowing that Dick has wonderful taking on the cowl stories,
but this has a permanence and sprinkled with respect perfectly. Though my favorite arc is probably Rogue War. It leaned too much Zoom/Reverse Flash than the Rogues themselves but the story itself is interesting.

[MikeandRaph87]

In addition to the above, Guy Gardner turned down getting his ring back when he was offered it by Ganthet? I thought Kyle just happened to be in the area and Ganthet was like 'here you are human'. I don't understand why Gardner would do that other than macho pride that Guy did not want to admit was best for him. The whole warrior genes thing never made any sense to me.

[Leo656]

Yeah, that was a retcon. When the books were initially being published Ganthet most certainly did not approach Guy with an offer of having the ring back. At the specific moment when he even could have, Guy still had the yellow ring for a very brief period as Hal hasn't destroyed it yet. Guy didn't go on the quest for the Warrior Waters and discover his latent Vuldarian abilities until AFTER Kyle had become Green Lantern. And Guy never would have traded away the yellow ring for the weaker Green Lantern ring.

It was just a lazy retcon someone tried to staple on way after the fact but they got the timing of everything wrong. I mean yeah maybe in the "new" timeline some couple dozen reboots and timeline shake-ups later. But IN 1993 there simply wasn't a way in which Ganthet offering Guy a ring would've worked smoothly. It almost works but ultimately doesn't.

I think the person who came up with that just forgot at which point Guy became Warrior. It wasn't very long after Kyle got the ring, but it was after.

[Andrew NDB]

Guy lost his yellow ring like RIGHT after Emerald Twilight, in Emerald Fallout. Hal melted it off his hand if I recall. So it technically happened during Kyle becoming a GL.

And yeah, to this day Ron Marz will tell you that Kyle was a right place, right time GL. It was Geoff that retconned so that Kyle was always supposed to get the ring, destiny and prophecy and blah blah lazy hack writer stuff.

[Leo656]

The way it read on the page was that Ganthet gave Kyle the ring, like, immediately after the disaster on Oa. When Guy went to confront Hal on Oa and Hal in turn trashed his yellow ring, it wasn't like minutes later, probably a day or so at least but probably longer.

It was definitely a very tight timeframe but I'm almost 100% sure there was a gap between Kyle getting the ring and Guy's ring being trashed. Therefore there was no situation where Ganthet could have offered Guy a GL ring and he realistically would have wanted it. AFTER his yellow ring got trashed, different story. Guy definitely would've taken a GL ring before going on that whole trek to South America and everything; the search for the "Warrior Waters" was a complete last resort for Guy. But he still had the yellow ring when Kyle got his ring, even if it was only briefly.

I mean I can see Ganthet being that desperate to ask Guy. But if Guy still had the yellow ring, he would've said no. And he also would've rubbed Kyle's face in it a hundred times over the years, had that happened, yet never did.

That's the problem with retcons. They might seem to fit neatly but they actually screw more things up than it would seem at a glance.

[Andrew NDB]

I mean I can see Ganthet being that desperate to ask Guy. But if Guy still had the yellow ring, he would've said no. And he also would've rubbed Kyle's face in it a hundred times over the years, had that happened, yet never did.

Wait... I'm racking my brain but... I think there WAS a story sometime in the mid-late 90s that showed Ganthet approaching Guy before Kyle and him refusing the ring just like you say. Damn... what WAS that story?

[Leo656]

Yeah, there was a story where Ganthet offered Guy a ring, and I wanna say it was around the time of Final Night. But it was way after Kyle had been on the scene. Basically there was some looing disaster and Ganthet offered Guy a ring and was like "It can be yours again, if you wish it," and Guy was all like "Man, once upon a time I wanted this more than anything..." but then he turned it down because he was all settled in as Warrior by then and had put his past as Green Lantern firmly in the rearview mirror.

Which of course made it all the more confusing when "Rebirth" happened and Guy was all like "Hey... I lied!", but Geoff Johns didn't write the previous story and so it was just clutter he didn't want to deal with.

Anyways, yeah, Ganthet DID offer Guy a GL ring at some point in the late-90s or somewhere and Guy did turn it down. But that was way, way after Kyle came on the scene.

Like you, I'm now racking my brain trying to remember when and where. I want to say it was around Final Night but I'm pretty sure it wasn't IN Final Night.

[MikeandRaph87]

I remember in Infinite Crisis it was stated that Kyle was from Earth-8 in other words those who debuted between Crisis on Infinite Earths through Zero Hour were from said the proposed alternate Earth. So I don't know if that was a retcon of Kyle being predestined to be a green lantern. Well, it worked out. Kyle got 8 years in the spotlight on his own.

Interesting observation, how many times has the central power battery been destroyed? Yellow was the necessary flaw in the rings, well why not the vulnerable central battery? It seems like its destroyed every few years to put the threat. That was case in Tales of The Green Lantern Corps, Emerald Twilight, War of The Green Lanterns, and now whatever the current storyline is called which only Hal and the Far Sector green lantern have active rings.

I thought Far Sector was an Elseworlds tale.:trazz: Still waiting on Hal to get a title back.

[MikeandRaph87]

Yeah, there was a story where Ganthet offered Guy a ring, and I wanna say it was around the time of Final Night. But it was way after Kyle had been on the scene. Basically there was some looing disaster and Ganthet offered Guy a ring and was like "It can be yours again, if you wish it," and Guy was all like "Man, once upon a time I wanted this more than anything..." but then he turned it down because he was all settled in as Warrior by then and had put his past as Green Lantern firmly in the rearview mirror.

Which of course made it all the more confusing when "Rebirth" happened and Guy was all like "Hey... I lied!", but Geoff Johns didn't write the previous story and so it was just clutter he didn't want to deal with.

Anyways, yeah, Ganthet DID offer Guy a GL ring at some point in the late-90s or somewhere and Guy did turn it down. But that was way, way after Kyle came on the scene.

Like you, I'm now racking my brain trying to remember when and where. I want to say it was around Final Night but I'm pretty sure it wasn't IN Final Night.

Having recently read Final Night Guy had Warriors operating and was Warrior. It served as a base for the heroes and it looked like the final chapter of International. I say that because many of the regular members of its lineup were involved.

[Andrew NDB]

Basically there was some looing disaster and Ganthet offered Guy a ring and was like "It can be yours again, if you wish it," and Guy was all like "Man, once upon a time I wanted this more than anything..." but then he turned it down because he was all settled in as Warrior by then and had put his past as Green Lantern firmly in the rearview mirror.

Yeah... that's in the Final Night: Parallax one shot, must be. But I thought there was something else. Like in an annual or a special or something. Where Guy is like, "Let me tell you something, and set the record straight!" and then we get the story of Ganthet going to Guy before Kyle.

[MikeandRaph87]

Whatever happened to the Blue Lantern Corps? Saint Walker was the only one and it was going to expand again but it faded into the background.

[MikeandRaph87]

This is one of the handful of books that are advertised in the school library at the school I work at.

[Andrew NDB]

Whatever happened to the Blue Lantern Corps? Saint Walker was the only one and it was going to expand again but it faded into the background.

Got destroyed along with every other Corps. Then brought back and forgotten about again, or something.

[MikeandRaph87]

Got destroyed along with every other Corps. Then brought back and forgotten about again, or something.

So basically on hiatus in the mythos until a writer decides to build around Saint Walker? I remember the subplot of him taking refuge on Mogo but once Grant started his 27 issue run he disappeared.

I picked up a copy of both Ganthet's Tale and The Last Will and Testament of Hal Jordan to kick off my Green Lantern: Rebirth set.

Read through the first issue of JLA: The Last Ride. So Hal is restarting The Green Lantern Corps with John Stewart, Kilowag, and the Cruz woman and needs to create respect for the Corps by protecting Lobo before a fair trial can be achieved. Wally West is Flash! Not enough Hal and Wally working together!

Though Batman is being a jerk to Hal and Superman. It is odd how Batman and Superman are supposed to be different in approach to what they do. They push the no-kill policy the hardest in the DCU and were loners who were raised by surrogate family. I don't see why they are supposed to butt heads.

[Leo656]

Because Batman prefers to solve 99% of problems with punching and Superman at least tries to avoid that kind of thing. Also, Batman doesn't generally believe in rehabilitation and Superman is all about seeing the best in everyone. So philosophically they are rather different.

I abhor "no kill" policies. They reek of editorial mandate and are a relic from the days when only 5 year old kids read comics. I'm not saying guys like Superman and Batman should go around purposely killing people if it can be avoided - it should definitely always be the ultimate last resort, and they should always feel terrible about it - but the whole "Heroes Never Kill" thing is SUPREMELY disrespectful to cops and soldiers, who are forced to kill people all the time and are nonetheless "heroes". Just for one example.

I mean let's be real, no version of Superman whose ever existed would have just stood by and let Zod roast that family in "Man of Steel". In any scenario where taking one life would save More Than One Life, and it was the only way out, they would do what they had to do and mope about it later. Batman, same thing. It's about the context, and there are absolutely scenarios where killing would be unavoidable.

Make it a last resort, have it only happen like once every few decades or whatever, fine. Really sell and put over how much they hate doing it. Treat it responsibly. But the whole "Heroes Never Kill" business? Bollocks. 5 year olds don't even read comics anymore, we can stop protecting their delicate sensibilities.

[Andrew NDB]

Wait... I'm racking my brain but... I think there WAS a story sometime in the mid-late 90s that showed Ganthet approaching Guy before Kyle and him refusing the ring just like you say. Damn... what WAS that story?

Ah-hah! I know what it was. "Green Lantern Secret Files and Origins" #1.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Green-Lantern-Secret-Files/Issue-1?id=109503#1

[MikeandRaph87]

Ah-hah! I know what it was. "Green Lantern Secret Files and Origins" #1.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Green-Lantern-Secret-Files/Issue-1?id=109503#1

Ah, thanks for that! I was thinking the link was to Secret Files & Origins 2005 which bridged GL: Rebirth to the 2005 ongoing.

Why did DC change over from annuals from 1999 to 2005 to Secret Files & Origins?

[MikeandRaph87]

Also, I was wondering about secret identities and the Green Lantern Corps. If I understand correctly Hal Jordan was following the norm of costumed heroes in leading a private life while acting as a hero. However, the Corps were space cops and cops don't have secret identities. So when both John and later Guy decided to act in public as a space cop and not keep a line drawn between their duties and private lives it was the norm for a Green Lantern. Once Parallax decimated the corps Kyle did as Hal and put the role of costumed hero ahead instead of space cop since that is who he would primarily interact with due the Corps being inactive. I believe I got it right that a Green Lantern is technically not a super hero but a space cop and that is why, but I wanted to double check to see if I am correct.

[Andrew NDB]

Also, I was wondering about secret identities and the Green Lantern Corps. If I understand correctly Hal Jordan was following the norm of costumed heroes in leading a private life while acting as a hero. However, the Corps were space cops and cops don't have secret identities. So when both John and later Guy decided to act in public as a space cop and not keep a line drawn between their duties and private lives it was the norm for a Green Lantern. Once Parallax decimated the corps Kyle did as Hal and put the role of costumed hero ahead instead of space cop since that is who he would primarily interact with due the Corps being inactive. I believe I got it right that a Green Lantern is technically not a super hero but a space cop and that is why, but I wanted to double check to see if I am correct.

The mask is optional, if you have a private life and loved ones to protect. Notice that Guy Gardner and John Stewart don't bother with masks.

Yeah, Kyle wasn't a space cop until maybe late into the run. Before he did his big exodus into space.

[Leo656]

Those first few Kyle issues were so great. It was so much fun watching this guy with no clue what he was doing get thrown into the deep end and have to figure all this "Green Lantern" stuff out as he went along. Very unconventional and refreshing for the time. And of course, nobody could've seen the bit with Alex and Major Force coming. Truly shocking stuff, especially coming as early in the run as it did. Sort of set the tone right away for Kyle that "This gig ain't fun and games, kid." Like the first few issues are just a fun romp and then BAM, sucker-punch. It upset me but I also thought it was very well done.

[Andrew NDB]

Those first few Kyle issues were so great. It was so much fun watching this guy with no clue what he was doing get thrown into the deep end and have to figure all this "Green Lantern" stuff out as he went along. Very unconventional and refreshing for the time. And of course, nobody could've seen the bit with Alex and Major Force coming. Truly shocking stuff, especially coming as early in the run as it did. Sort of set the tone right away for Kyle that "This gig ain't fun and games, kid." Like the first few issues are just a fun romp and then BAM, sucker-punch. It upset me but I also thought it was very well done.

Absolutely. I was hooked at that point. Riveted.

[MikeandRaph87]

See that is where I differ. Green Lantern: Rebirth is what got me hooked. Emerald Twilight and giving a name to Women in Refrigerators within an 18 month period. 90s overkill.

Green Lantern has another rogue Guardian? It is either removing the central power battery or a rogue guardian.:trazz: Let's get back to Hal,DC!

[Leo656]

No, it was just a well-done story that raised stakes and defied convention. You need to do that from time to time lest things get stale. The Silver Age died for a reason. People grew up. DC killing off a secondary character (who was invented for that specific storytelling purpose) is a far, far cry from the stuff that Image and Marvel were doing around the same time.

And Gail Simone can suck it. I read her entire "Women In Refrigerators" rant and all I got from it was, "We're not allowed to ever have anything bad happen to female NPCs." :roll: She's literally a hairdresser who got lucky because she was friends with the right people, and she's barely ever written anything even decent. She had no business finger-wagging anyone, side characters have been getting killed off to better motivate the heroes for ages, male and female NPCs alike. So you can "fridge" Jason Todd or Aqualad, but you can't do the same to Barbara Gordon or Alex DeWitt? Of course you can.

Simone is an idiot and that whole spiel about "the Women In Refrigerators trope" is asinine. You're allowed to kill off side characters, people have been doing it since the f*cking Bible. It's not "representative" of anything, it's called "Telling Stories".

[MikeandRaph87]

After sorting my comic collection last July I finally completed making a master spreadsheet by long box. I believe I have compiled the ultimate Hal Jordan: Rebirth and Beyond set. However if there is something missing you can let me know. It sucks that he is without a title right now.
Tales of The Green Lantern Corps #1-3 mini-series
DC First: Green Lantern/Green Lantern one-shot
Ganthet's Tale one-shot
Green Lantern: Willworld one-shot
The Last Will & Testament of Hal Jordan one-shot
Green Lantern/Star Trek #1-6
Green Lantern Rebirth#1-6
Green Lantern Secret Files & Origins (2005) one-shot
Green Lantern (2005)#1-69
Sinestro Corps War#1 special, Tales of The Sinestro Corps#1-3
Blackest Night: Tales of The Corps#1-3
Green Lantern/Plastic Man one-shot
Green Lantern (2011) 0-52
Annuals#1-4
Relic one-shot, Mongul one-shot, Black Hand one-shot Sinestro one-shot
Larfleeze Christmas Special
Green Lantern Future's End one-shot
Green Lantern: God's Head one-shot
Hal Jordan and The Green Lantern Corps #1-50
Hal Jordan and The Green Lantern Corps: Rebirth one-shot
Green Lanterns#57
The Green Lantern Season One #1-12 & Annual
The Green Lantern: Blackstars# 1-3
The Green Lantern Season Two #1-12 & Annual
Green Lantern 80th Anniversary Special
Green Lantern 2021 Annual

[Andrew NDB]

Hey, guys... come on over to the Green Lantern Corps message board. A member just paid for the vBulletin upgrade to the latest version of 5.6.6..

http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/forum

We're a small bunch left at this point but... spirited.

[MikeandRaph87]

https://comicbook.com/dc/amp/news/dc-green-lantern-writer-grant-morrison-hal-jordan-pansexual/

So Grant Morrison thought to fit into the diversity fad going through mass media Hal had to be attracted to anything that moves because of his space patrols and greatest fear...commitment to Carol Ferris.

I follow the hero behind the mantle not the mantle itself and have a preference for what mantle that individual wears. For that reason I bought the Batgirl series from the New 52 and did not continue with Batgirls. The same reason I read from Rebirth through The Green Lantern Season Two.

Also, I did not know sales for Morrison's 27 issue run sold poorly. Thinking Critical suggest the title with Thorne was stopped at 12 issues and had even lower sales.

[MikeandRaph87]

Any thoughts on Green Lantern( 2023)#1?

[Andrew NDB]

I just peeked at it. Nice. That's what GL should be doing now. Back to basics and nice character stuff.

But Carol's moved on from Hal? Last I heard (and it was a long time ago now) she was dating Kyle Rayner. And that was after she was MARRIED to someone other than Hal. And speaking of Kyle, everybody but him gets a little backup in the end of the book?

[ZariusTwo]

But Carol's moved on from Hal?

Doubt it. Her first appearance in the issue sees her biting her lip anxiously when Hal is mentioned by her receptionist, she wants him, but it's going to be complicated like it normally is. She's got a new life, a potential new marriage, and the true love's back in her life. If she wanted a clean break, she wouldn't have rehired him, which she does here.

I trust Carol will be with Hal mid way through the run or before it ends, Jeremy Adams is gaining a bit of a cult reputation as "Mr. Fixit" in DC, he did solid work on Wally West and restored him to how he used to be.

[MikeandRaph87]

I just peeked at it. Nice. That's what GL should be doing now. Back to basics and nice character stuff.

But Carol's moved on from Hal? Last I heard (and it was a long time ago now) she was dating Kyle Rayner. And that was after she was MARRIED to someone other than Hal. And speaking of Kyle, everybody but him gets a little backup in the end of the book?

Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps ended and Green Lanterns its then sister series went on for a half dozen more issues and Hal was included in it's final arc which saw Hal face off with Cyborg Superman over the rebuilt Coast City. It was a great full circle moment for the character. In the final page Hal dedicated himself to Carol and she accepted him with an embrace, but then Grant Morrison jumps in and remembers any random girlfriend he had in the 70s' before getting back with Carol when he gave the mantle to John in the early to mid 80s'. If you think Bruce and Selina have a will they/won't they to the point of annoyance these two are even worse. I agree with Zarius that Hal and Carol will end up together by say issue 25 or so, but we have the latest fiancee' currently standing in the way.

Hal Jordan really felt true to form and the uncanny resemblance in character to Pete Maverick is blatantly obvious. The only thing is, while Hal stood up to the little blue bosses he quit when The United Planets took over the oversight? That does not seem to fit him, more like stay and force them to let him do as he sees fit, the rebel you cannot expel/fire as proven from past storylines.

[Andrew NDB]

Hal Jordan really felt true to form and the uncanny resemblance in character to Pete Maverick is blatantly obvious.

They even have him say, "Good morning, Aviators."

[MikeandRaph87]

They even have him say, "Good morning, Aviators."

The simulation Hal failed at and showing up an elite younger group of pilots. It makes me wonder if Carol is going to be forced to have Hal lead a team after breaking protocol and saving people without his ring similar to how Maverick played out.

I am hoping the more Earth-based villains not adapted in Johns era will see decades removed panel time.

[MikeandRaph87]

Issue 2 solict:
Hal Jordan’s homecoming is off to a rocky start! Carol Ferris is this close to firing him from the job he’s only just begged his way into, his power ring isn’t exactly working right, and off in the shadows, Sinestro, the architect of Hal’s current crisis, is waiting for the perfect moment to strike.

Is it suggesting that Sinestro talked The United Planets into quarantining Earth?

Did anyone else notice that the original solicits stated it was the Guardians of Oa that did so not The United Planets. This must have been a last minute switch in plot. Perhaps it was to get around throwing green lanterns into various different corps in the John Stewart short-lived lead.

Also, this officially sucks, Knight Terrors, I am not going to read is putting a pause on practically everything. It may as well have waited until after this 'event' instead of interrupting it. At least my favorite title, Batman/Superman: World's Finest is allowed to carry on.

[MikeandRaph87]

Alright so the second issue will lead into the two part Knight Terrors event. It will basically be the third installment despite having to wait until after Labor Day for issue three.

Hal was in character and made me laugh. It appears that Nathan is like Gil, not Hal, a nice guy who doesn't take off for hero duty. He won't last long. So the threat encountered at the end of the issue is Knight Terrors, is it Nekron or some made up for event baddie?

[MikeandRaph87]

Major Disaster makes a cameo attacking Los Angles, I thought he was reformed?

Sinestro has a daughter with Abin Sur's sister, but now has a younger child, a son? What did he do on Kougar that Hal deems unforgiveable? I thought Kouguar was destroyed? There was no issue reference to refer to in this week's #4.