TMNT #80 Preview and Discussion

[bushido]

Preview here (https://www.comiccrusaders.com/exclusive-preview-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-80/).

[Utrommaniac]

"Everyone! Seat belts to maximum buckling!"

It took me a bit to decipher the text, but I figured it out eventually.


I really like how things were changed up on the turtles being on the Triceratons side this time, and now they're really gunning for it.

[bushido]

It took me a bit to decipher the text, but I figured it out eventually.

Did you click on View Full Size on the bottom right?

[Utrommaniac]

Well, I feel silly :lol:

I never noticed that was an option. Thanks.

[Technogeek29]

Who's coming out on top?
Wish the movies would push a more altruistic Splinter.

[ChosenOne]

Oh, sh*t, they're really gonna do it! :o Does this remind anyone else of...

"They're not stopping."
"Neither are we."

?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Kara Lewis needs to get on the mutants' side ASAFP.

Damn. This is gonna be a great issue. :tcool:

Haven't been this hyped since Attack on Technodrome! :tgrin:

[Coola Yagami]

Is that 2K3 April as a police officer?

Also I'm confused by Bishop and Slash. Like I understand that Slash is somehow forced to copy Bishop's movements, but is Bishop there in person or is he at home and his appearance there is symbolism to remind the reader that this is his doing?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Is that 2K3 April as a police officer?

Also I'm confused by Bishop and Slash. Like I understand that Slash is somehow forced to copy Bishop's movements, but is Bishop there in person or is he at home and his appearance there is symbolism to remind the reader that this is his doing?

Detective Kara Lewis, from the Michelangelo one-shot, Vengeance, Universe #1-4, and maybe one or two other appearances...

No, Bishop is really there. Bishop believes in leading from the front lines.

[ProphetofGanja]

Oh, sh*t, they're really gonna do it! :o Does this remind anyone else of...

"They're not stopping."
"Neither are we."

?

Oh yeah, definitely. So emotional! :sad:

Detective Kara Lewis, from the Michelangelo one-shot, Vengeance, Universe #1-4, and maybe one or two other appearances...

No, Bishop is really there. Bishop believes in leading from the front lines.

Which is really kind of silly, since he's remote-piloting a massive mutant turtle. I mean, being right there next to the turtle defeats almost all strategic advantage gained from using the mutant in the first place. Also, wtf is Bishop's deal is a he a robot or a clone or a cyborg or wtf???

[ChosenOne]

Oh yeah, definitely. So emotional! :sad:

I'm intensely curious to see how this all works out. My guess is, Stockman bails the Turtles and the Triceratons out somehow, and we don't get a proper outcome to the fight yet. Most of it will be talking and stalling for time. The Foot aren't that outgunned. Splinter is more than capable of handling the Turtles by himself, and that leaves the Elite Foot versus the Triceratons, which given everything we've seen on both ends seems pretty balanced to me. I could of course be wrong and it turns into a no-holds-barred bloodbath... We'll see soon enough. Definitely hyped either way!

Which is really kind of silly, since he's remote-piloting a massive mutant turtle. I mean, being right there next to the turtle defeats almost all strategic advantage gained from using the mutant in the first place. Also, wtf is Bishop's deal is a he a robot or a clone or a cyborg or wtf???

IKR? The Triceratons are veteran warriors under an expert commander, I can't believe that not a single one of them has spotted that obvious vulnerability in the ranks of the EPF... Regarding Bishop, he's wtf. Very much wtf. We're yet to see some light shed on him and his actual origins, and it won't happen until after #85, but I'm expecting as big of a stunner there as when we were told Kitsune's endgame (her family's reaction helped).

[Utrommaniac]

Okay, but I just remembered that the turtles did try and fail to defeat Splinter (in disguise) at one point, so it could mean huge things if the they're able to beat him this time, having gained a lot more experience since then.

[ChosenOne]

Yes, it will certainly be surprising and a sign of their growth if they can manage to keep him busy, and not just toying with them like last time. The Triceratons can handle themselves against the Elite Foot but if Splinter intervenes in that side of the battle, they're done for, so the Turtles pretty much need to keep him in check until whatever ends the conflict can happen. That's my take on it, at least. Like I said before, I expect Stockman to intervene somehow.

[ProphetofGanja]

Okay, but I just remembered that the turtles did try and fail to defeat Splinter (in disguise) at one point, so it could mean huge things if the they're able to beat him this time, having gained a lot more experience since then.

I do think it's possible that all four Turtles might be able to defeat Splinter if they work together. It would feel like significant evidence of the growth of their abilities, how much they've learned since before the City Fall arc, so long ago

Yes, it will certainly be surprising and a sign of their growth if they can manage to keep him busy, and not just toying with them like last time. The Triceratons can handle themselves against the Elite Foot but if Splinter intervenes in that side of the battle, they're done for, so the Turtles pretty much need to keep him in check until whatever ends the conflict can happen. That's my take on it, at least. Like I said before, I expect Stockman to intervene somehow.

Eh, I don't think Splinter could do that much against a whole room full of Triceraton soldiers armed with sci-fi weaponry. I mean, I believe that he is one of the most skilled fighters on Earth in the TMNT's world, but it would just be too much if he was able to defeat those odds.

[ChosenOne]

Eh, I don't think Splinter could do that much against a whole room full of Triceraton soldiers armed with sci-fi weaponry. I mean, I believe that he is one of the most skilled fighters on Earth in the TMNT's world, but it would just be too much if he was able to defeat those odds.

Not just Splinter by himself, but with some or all of the Elite Foot to run interference. Then the Triceratons would be well and truly outgunned.

[Utrommaniac]

Three cheers for April finally doing something! "He'll be our monster, dad"

I'm a little surprised by Zom being a good sport in returning to the Utroms.


But...Hob...

Hob.

The conflict was going on for three months! Were you just sitting on your butt the whole time?!

Well, he has alien guns now, so that's going to be horrifying down the road.

[neatoman]

Three cheers for April finally doing something! "He'll be our monster, dad"

I'm a little surprised by Zom being a good sport in returning to the Utroms.


But...Hob...

Hob.

The conflict was going on for three months! Were you just sitting on your butt the whole time?!

Well, he has alien guns now, so that's going to be horrifying down the road.

Well, here are my predictions on these points:


I'm guessing Stockman will receive a lot of government contracts for this, maybe we'll even get the Stockman/Bishop dynamic.
Triceratons are probably going to be dicks about it.
Not sure what Hob can do with those, is there anything he can't just do with human guns? Raid NULL or something?

[Utrommaniac]

Oh, I am DOWN with a Stockman-Bishop shakeup! Bring it ooooon!

[Enscripture]

Urrr this story was good if you exclude those retarded Universe comics those were TERRIBLE. Was hoping that a certain RED Utrom popped up at the end or something

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

It was not three months. Was it? More like days...

"Elite ninja, huh? Big fricking deal."

"You're a hero, Baxter. You're welcome."

Old Hob, yay!!!

[Utrommaniac]

Urrr this story was good if you exclude those retarded Universe comics those were TERRIBLE. Was hoping that a certain RED Utrom popped up at the end or something

Dude, chill :teek: .

It's probably next month anyway. In a Universe comic. And I'm anticipating it highly.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Urrr this story was good if you exclude those retarded Universe comics those were TERRIBLE. Was hoping that a certain RED Utrom popped up at the end or something

Hey, man, show some respect for Universe. :tlol:

It's given Bishop, the Mutanimals, Wyrm, Toad Baron, more Metalhead, Karai and her mutants in Japan, Sally and Ray versus mutant werewolf cyborgs, new scorpion and snake mutants, Turtles teaming up with Stockman...

Universe kicks ass... with a couple of misses. Not bad for 20 issues and counting!

Now, the BACK-UP stories... THOSE I'll hate on. :trazz:

[shredder orokusaki]

Urrr this story was good if you exclude those retarded Universe comics those were TERRIBLE. Was hoping that a certain RED Utrom popped up at the end or something


Iam coming! Just wait a little bit more! Iam making my new Utrom Shredder robot body and then i will become the leader of foot ninjas again! It is a SHAME what Splinter has done to my foot ninjas!

[neatoman]

Iam coming! Just wait a little bit more!

Fine, just remember to pull out when you do.

[shredder orokusaki]

Oh, I am DOWN with a Stockman-Bishop shakeup! Bring it ooooon!
And then with my new Utrom armor i will destroy his body and put his brain in a jar and then will kill him! Like i did to the 2003 Baxter! But this time i will throw his brain out of the jar and let it die there!!! Bishop will not save this Stomcnan too. Because iam planning to destroy his brain too and not just his body! I will let his brain die due ot lack of water while i will be laughting!!!

[CyberCubed]

This was a solid wrap-up and we know from Universe that Don will go to Burnow Island to make peace between the Triceratons and Utroms so technically this story isn't over yet.

As I said last issue I like the new female Elite Guard, I wonder if she'll be an actual character going forward or just a nameless leader. What I also liked is how despite Splinter and the Turtles at odds, neither felt out of character. Splinter just told the Foot to take down the Turtles and not kill them, and after the Turtles defeated them he just did his best to discipline them. And Mikey refusing to fight at all was a nice touch. It helps keep Splinter doing what he's doing believable rather than if they just went with a, "Splinter has gone evil" story. You can tell how much he cares for his sons and wants to protect NY.

Some other stuff was pretty funny, like Bishop screaming, "No!" just because he couldn't fight Triceratons anymore, he was enjoying himself a little too much there, huh? :lol:

The epilogue ending with Old Hob picking up weapons felt kind of random, it's the same thing Hob has been doing for a long time now so it felt weird to end this arc on that, it wasn't anything new. Would have preferred to see what Bishop was thinking at the end instead.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Some other stuff was pretty funny, like Bishop screaming, "No!" just because he couldn't fight Triceratons anymore, he was enjoying himself a little too much there, huh? :lol:

The epilogue ending with Old Hob picking up weapons felt kind of random, it's the same thing Hob has been doing for a long time now so it felt weird to end this arc on that, it wasn't anything new. Would have preferred to see what Bishop was thinking at the end instead.

We've already seen Bishop is bat-crap-craaaaaaaazy. Or did you forget he curb-stomped his daddy in his wheelchair? :tlol:

But yeah, I like your point. I really feel like Burnow Island is about to blow the heck up. Triceratons, Ch'rell, Utrom civil war, Bishop, Slash, Leatherhead...

Can't wait for that story arc. I'd rather read that than Pantheon stuff!

It is odd that Old Hob didn't show up in this arc... especially as you have to believe that Hob and family are waiting for a chance to steal Slash back from Bishop!

[PApagreg]

Okay issue the art was awful and the fight scenes were a bit on the boring side but the plot developed so I guess that's good

[ChosenOne]

I expected more of a fight, to be honest, and the Triceraton soldiers to last longer against the Foot. And Splinter being a bit more unreasonable, which was a nice surprise to see how level-headed he remained. His reasons make some sense, though obviously the Turtles are just as justified in opposing him. Called it on the way the battle ended. I really want to see what Hob is cooking up, seems like we've been waiting on his mutant army for a long time now.

[Utrommaniac]

I actually think that, provided Ch'rell doesn't do something to annihilate the Triceratons - which I doubt - is that the Triceratons might serve as a pretty good damper on things getting too dangerous with the Utroms.

"Right, we've f*cked up your population enough, but this time, we're not going to let it get worse. Stop the fightin."



My one disappointment is that they never met Pepperoni. That would have been amazing.

[CyberCubed]

I wonder how many Triceratons died from the ones Bishop killed or the one lit on fire in the previous issues. It looks like Zom didn't think about their losses.

[mrmaczaps]

This issue seemed rushed... the art was sloppy... More detail please. Finish it even. Some panels were really bad...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

This issue seemed rushed... the art was sloppy... More detail please. Finish it even. Some panels were really bad...

Well, the original artist WAS unable to do #79 and #80. So it was actually rushed, probably.

[mrmaczaps]

Well, the original artist WAS unable to do #79 and #80. So it was actually rushed, probably.

Ah was not aware of that. Story itself seemed rushed too.

[Enscripture]

Hey, man, show some respect for Universe. :tlol:

It's given Bishop, the Mutanimals, Wyrm, Toad Baron, more Metalhead, Karai and her mutants in Japan, Sally and Ray versus mutant werewolf cyborgs, new scorpion and snake mutants, Turtles teaming up with Stockman...

Universe kicks ass... with a couple of misses. Not bad for 20 issues and counting!

Now, the BACK-UP stories... THOSE I'll hate on. :trazz:

I'm talking about the ones in this story-arc. That from the heart for the herd that triceratots and that stupid costume comic

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I'm talking about the ones in this story-arc. That from the heart for the herd that triceratots and that stupid costume comic

Can't argue with you on those!

[Utrommaniac]

Yeah, there were some severe problems with For the Herd.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Yeah, there were some severe problems with For the Herd.

Yeah, but you're the Utrom fanatic. You dig deeper into their culture and history than a guy on PCP trying to dig a hole to China in his backyard. :twink:

[Utrommaniac]

It's actually more on Zog's side in that situation for me :P . Namely that his original aggressions were toward Quanin and not really toward Krang. He says that he has no interest in if the rebellion fails or succeeds, so long as Quanin loses specifically.


I could try to do a lot on developing Utrom culture though. The problem is trying to break away from a human perspective.


I would also like to watch that guy on PCP trying to dig to China (while calling an ambulance)

[Leomaru]

Am I the only one who finds it irritating that the turtles are still no match for splinter? :tgrumble:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Am I the only one who finds it irritating that the turtles are still no match for splinter? :tgrumble:

I don't like how the Turtles constantly can't win a fight in IDW, but I don't mind them still losing to Splinter.

He's their teacher; he knows their weaknesses and how to exploit that. Plus he's got tons more experience.

I'll gripe when they can't beat Leatherhead, or Hakkr, or Slash, or Shredder... but I'm still okay with Splinter winning each round.

[Utrommaniac]

With Slash and Leatherhead, you'd think they would have learned from their fights with Krang.

Though, he couldn't really move very quickly because the suit and not being able to have a wide range of vision because of his glass, thus having to resort mostly to projectile weapons...and also wouldn't stop pontificating :lol: .

Slash and Leatherhead have the benefit of being really fast for their size.
They could have beat Slash if it weren't for that meddling Michelangelo. But he's going to be even harder to fight because of Bishop, who someone needs to realize is a great big glitter-bombed target since he insists on being on the scene every time.

Shredder is understandable for their struggle to beat, and so is Hakk-R. He's a slippery fella.

[ChosenOne]

There are some foes the Turtles should eventually be able to beat as a sort of "graduation" from their status as students. Shredder is the one that immediately comes to mind. Splinter, however, is not one of them. I'd be okay if they never could defeat him, just stalemate at the most.

[CyberCubed]

I liked that they took out the Elite Guards fairly easily, since we're rather "late" in the IDW run now. If this was earlier in the series the Turtles should have lost.

[Redeemer]

Okay issue the art was awful and the fight scenes were a bit on the boring side but the plot developed so I guess that's good

This issue seemed rushed... the art was sloppy... More detail please. Finish it even. Some panels were really bad...
I am glad I was not the only one thinking this

Well, the original artist WAS unable to do #79 and #80. So it was actually rushed, probably.

Wow that stinks....

[Powder]

The art was not "awful" or "sloppy". It was stylized, & some of you didn't like it. & that's okay, but know the difference between something being objectively bad, & it not suiting your tastes.

[Redeemer]

The art was not "awful" or "sloppy". It was stylized, & some of you didn't like it. & that's okay, but know the difference between something being objectively bad, & it not suiting your tastes.

No it was definately rushed :lol:
When I see a lack of faces on panels "blank faces" it was definitely rushed

Powder I do agree that this issue was stylized which is fine, but as I said above when you leave faces blank that is "rushed" or "sloppy"

[PApagreg]

The art was not "awful" or "sloppy". It was stylized, & some of you didn't like it. & that's okay, but know the difference between something being objectively bad, & it not suiting your tastes.

1. When people say something is awful usually they mean it was awful based on their subjective taste since art is mostly subjective.

2.Like Redeemer said there were a lot of instances of characters having blank faces so there is a reason why some people might think it was a bit sloppy.

[DrSpengler]

Here is my full summary and review of TMNT #80 at TMNT Entity. (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2018/03/tmnt-idw-80.html)

All of the script elements were there, and save for a bit of an easy-out to resolve the invasion, this was a solidly written finale. Splinter and the Turtles finally going head to head was a big moment I'd been waiting for, but this was also a case where I was GLAD that it ended without a verdict. I want this struggle between them to keep going and get deeper and deeper; I'm enjoying the storyline that much.

But the art. Brahm Revel is a good artist and VERY good at layouts. But it was clear this was a rush job. Compare it to even the previous issue he did and the pared down, simplified aesthetics are obvious as well as the lack of detail in the environments (again, compared to last issue alone). His layouts still shine and this issue had the potential to look great, but it doesn't look finished. Many of the panels look like colored thumbnails.

That bugged me too much, especially for an issue that's a big deal in terms of the current storyarc and the ongoing character arc. I know that circumstances in deadlines and having to find an emergency replacement artist at short notice are likely what led to this, and it sucks for everybody that it happened this way. But once you've paid for the product, you have to look at what you've paid for and judge it accordingly. And it looks like I got a comic full of thumbnails.

[funatic]

Was Damian Couceiro late on deadlines? I imagine he was supposed to finish this arc. I wonder if we will see him on future books now? Shame to lose him if so since he had a great style that suited the turtles.

Din't mind Brahm Revel's that much, pretty good dynamism for what was clearly a rush job. However if you're lurking in this thread, Bobby, I'm sure I speak for most of us when I say we wouldn't mind a later book if it equals more polished art. That was the Mirage guarantee after all! :tlol:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I dunno, it's a balancing act. When Mateus and Cory swap in and out to help each with deadlines (Vengeance and Trial of Krang), I like it because they're both great artists.

But this... this was really, really rough.

It didn't occur to me before, but a big story arc like this really DID need much more detailed artwork. Previously, the less detailed and less refined artwork has usually been on smaller story arcs. Blood Brothers (the Turtles first meeting Slash), Sins of the Father, Mutanimals, the Turtles meeting the Street Phantoms (#51-52), and a bunch of mini-series and micro-series.

Compare that to the big story arcs: Secret History of the Foot Clan, Attack on Technodrome, Vengeance, Trial of Krang, City Fall, Shadows of the Past...

This wasn't great. DrSpengs really put a spotlight on the art, with some pretty damning language. And I can't argue with him at all. :tlol:

[ChosenOne]

It's interesting to read all these opinions on the art. I'm an odd case myself, as I'm usually all about the story and can't tell good or lacking art from the broad side of a barn, though I will on occasion praise specific artists who I think go above and beyond (such as Santolouco in the case of IDW TMNT). Having said that, even I felt there was something "off" about the art in this issue when I turned to the page where the Turtles fight the Elite Foot. It did not detract from my experience as much as it did others', but it was still very noticeable even for a layman like man. And I don't think that's a good sign.

Still, gotta give Brahm Revel credit where credit is due for sticking to the deadline and delivering as much as he could, in as little time as he apparently had. I hope he doesn't get too much flak, professionally speaking, for his artistic output in this issue.

[CyberCubed]

I liked the art during the Foot fight a lot, it had this "smear" look to it like the ninja's were fighting so fast it'd look like a blur in real life.

Also was this the first time the Turtles fought Elite Foot in IDW? I can't remember if they did around issues 48-50...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I liked the art during the Foot fight a lot, it had this "smear" look to it like the ninja's were fighting so fast it'd look like a blur in real life.

Also was this the first time the Turtles fought Elite Foot in IDW? I can't remember if they did around issues 48-50...

I think the first time we saw the Foot Elite was when Shredder and Donatello were cutting a deal.

So yes, first time for the TMNT. Although the Foot Elite have previously fought Krang... and all died invading Burnow Island.

[PApagreg]

I liked the art during the Foot fight a lot, it had this "smear" look to it like the ninja's were fighting so fast it'd look like a blur in real life.

Also was this the first time the Turtles fought Elite Foot in IDW? I can't remember if they did around issues 48-50...

They're ninjas not speedsters there should't be a reason for the blur.

[oldmanwinters]

I don't like how the Turtles constantly can't win a fight in IDW, but I don't mind them still losing to Splinter.

He's their teacher; he knows their weaknesses and how to exploit that. Plus he's got tons more experience.

I'll gripe when they can't beat Leatherhead, or Hakkr, or Slash, or Shredder... but I'm still okay with Splinter winning each round.

Ironic, since the Turtles essentially dominated their first major fight with Shredder in IDW #12! Leonardo even told him he was "unimpressed." Splinter, on the other hand, got diced up pretty good by Shredder in that same encounter (though without much visible blood and wounds).

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Ironic, since the Turtles essentially dominated their first major fight with Shredder in IDW #12! Leonardo even told him he was "unimpressed." Splinter, on the other hand, got diced up pretty good by Shredder in that same encounter (though without much visible blood and wounds).

Splinter had done a bit more of a Gauntlet battle...

Which, actually, could go to show why they fared better in #12 and worse in #50. :tlol: Going up against Shredder? Try to go in fresh off the bench. Otherwise, make sure Coach has a lot of ice and a stretcher waiting for you...

[Redeemer]

Ironic, since the Turtles essentially dominated their first major fight with Shredder in IDW #12! Leonardo even told him he was "unimpressed." Splinter, on the other hand, got diced up pretty good by Shredder in that same encounter (though without much visible blood and wounds).

You have that backwards I believe. In the Leonardo Micro it was Shredder who said "Im not impressed" and threw/knocked Leo off a construction site.

[Utrommaniac]

Yeah, Leo basically got his butt whooped in that chapter
https://i.imgur.com/hCIIT6r.png
[Opening bar of My Heart Will Go On]


(Hey whatever happened to the homeless lady in that micro, anyway? It's also kind of uncanny seeing Sophie's style like this, since this is clearly before she could really let loose on her trademark of cuteness)

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

Ahem,

And then it was revisited later when Leo threw the line back at Shredder when they rescued Splinter in TMNT #12 I believe. Circumstances were a bit odd but that was what caused Shredder to target Leo as his 2nd in command.

[ProphetofGanja]

Yes yes, Leo got to throw that line back in Shredder's face; that was pretty sweet

Kinda makes me want to start another read-thru of the series again

[Redeemer]

Ahem,

And then it was revisited later when Leo threw the line back at Shredder when they rescued Splinter in TMNT #12 I believe. Circumstances were a bit odd but that was what caused Shredder to target Leo as his 2nd in command.

Did it happen that way??? Him.... my bad I guess I am due for a re-read of the series :lol:

Yes yes, Leo got to throw that line back in Shredder's face; that was pretty sweet

Kinda makes me want to start another read-thru of the series again

It sounds like I NEED to start :lol:

[Utrommaniac]

At this point, I think we ALL need a re-read for those of us who are.

Who knows what kind of sneaky hints have been dropped through the series that have gone totally over our heads as being hints.
We were already somewhat onto Pantheon stuff, but I think there might be other things, especially relating to reincarnation and...other Pantheon things.

[MikeandRaph87]

At this point, I think we ALL need a re-read for those of us who are.

Who knows what kind of sneaky hints have been dropped through the series that have gone totally over our heads as being hints.
We were already somewhat onto Pantheon stuff, but I think there might be other things, especially relating to reincarnation and...other Pantheon things.

Would you mind making a bullet point list in the IDW general discussion thread?

[Utrommaniac]

I could try :P . Like a "What we know so far" kind of thing?

[ChosenOne]

I have a feeling some things (these hints or early Easter eggs) will only make sense after the Pantheon and/or reincarnation storyline has fully played out.

[Utrommaniac]

I think at least a few things are coming together now that we know what Kitsune has been planning all this time. We still don't know all the details

Which includes the full extent of her deal with Krang, unless I'm missing something big time. I'm still not entirely sure what he wanted from her. Which I'm pretty sure was access to Japan as his hiding place for the Utroms in stasis, but that fell through. So he had to go for Burnow instead. And then it's a question of how he went about deciding that was the better option.

[MikeandRaph87]

I could try :P . Like a "What we know so far" kind of thing?


Yes and keep in mind some things were in early development so may not be easter eggs like the snake creature being a patheon member, but it was beforethe lineup was fully decided.

[Utrommaniac]

Yeah, that wouldn't really be something that would count necessarily. I think something more appropriate would be "Pantheon family members have been killing each other for some reason and now there's only a few left"