Has there been a shift in counter culture?

[Andrew NDB]

http://www.highlander-community.com/counter.jpg

When did this shift, and why?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Social Conservatism and good old family values are the new Counter Culture.

Alright, that's all folks! (runs away before the inevitable :tcouch:)

[PApagreg]

A fan of PJW I see, also no being a family man isn't counter culture nobody(at least like 95 percant of the American population) looks at a family man and says "Oh my god he is so counter culture" there are still tons of shows and sitcoms that feature the nuclear family and anyone who says otherwise is dumb.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I think there is, but not in the way you are suggesting. I think the new counter-culture is this odd trend of calling people out on (fill on the blank) as a form of social shaming. Its almost like the fringes are now using the modern version of locking somebody in the stocks while the public boos and heckles and throws gatbage at them for (insert behavior/actions here). Its all done on social media, but it seems the fringe cultures are becoming adept at this sort of thing as a way of "screwing the Man".

[sdp]

4chan is a perfect example it was and continues to be counter-culture only back then it wanted to liberate people from the constrictions of religious conservatives and now they want to liberate people from the constrictions of the PC liberals.


Just look at the Simpsons? Who were the ones attacking them in the 90s and who are the ones attacking them today. It doesn't matter if it's either political extreme when they both want this:

ozWpY6Cn67Y

[plastroncafe]

Maybe I have a differing view of counter culture, but I always assumed it meant being against the status quo.

Social Conservatism doesn't question, or move counter to, the status quo.
Same thing with the social purity movements that've co-opted social media.

[Prowler]

The youth is always gonna find something to rebel against, I guess

[TurtleWA]

I always thought of folks like the amish and others living off-the-grid as counter culture. It’s even more counter culture today considering how prevalent technology is compared with twenty years ago.

But I wouldn’t consider a hair style or number of kids as counter culture.

[Prowler]

I always thought of folks like the amish and others living off-the-grid as counter culture. It’s even more counter culture today considering how prevalent technology is compared with twenty years ago.

But I wouldn’t consider a hair style or number of kids as counter culture.

I'm surprised the Amish have avoided persecution and extinction. You'd think they'd be an easy target.

Or maybe they have been in the past? Help me, plastron.

[Utrommaniac]

They are starting to dwindle even more these days. Mostly because of their recent allowance of 18 year olds to leave the community and experience the "modern" world for a year.


And then a lot of them don't come back.

[Andrew NDB]

The Amish kind of quietly exist outside of things... in their own culture.

[ProphetofGanja]

I don't know if I'd say that there's been a shift in counter cultures but I would say there has been a change in how they fare.

Nowadays with the internet, it is easier for like-minded peoples to connect and share with each other and thus propagate unique cultures that may or may not thrive. In the past there were far more niche cultures than we remember, mainly due to not having the advantage of increased connectivity that we have today. Now all these unique cultures can last longer too, so that as internet usage has ramped up in the past few decades so has the staying power of niche movements/subcultures.

So I wouldn't say that counter culture has "shifted", more like fragmented

[TurtleWA]

I get the terms counter culture and sub culture confused.

I do think all counter cultures are sub cultures but not all sub cultures are necessarily counter cultures.

This video helped slightly. It’s short only 3:30. :ohwell:

yXclEnXpV-k

[Sage Ninja]

Yeah...I may be called a stinking SJW (the new witch hunt) or whatever for saying this but I do think there is a conservative counter culture going on in recent years, and I find that kind of sad...

[Sumac]

Yeah...I may be called a stinking SJW (the new witch hunt) or whatever for saying this but I do think there is a conservative counter culture going on in recent years, and I find that kind of sad...
When one culture becomes mainstream it's opposite becomes counter-culture. It's a natural process and there is nothing sad to be about.

Especially if you put things in perspective.

[plastroncafe]

Yeah...I may be called a stinking SJW (the new witch hunt) or whatever for saying this but I do think there is a conservative counter culture going on in recent years, and I find that kind of sad...

Conservative culture seeks to reinforce the status quo, so I don't think they get to have a counter-culture.

[TigerClaw]

You could argue that the TMNT Fandom is part of a Subculture.

[ProphetofGanja]

You could argue that the TMNT Fandom is part of a Subculture.

I would say it's more like a specific nook of what could be called the Nerdy/Fandom subculture but yeah, I agree

[Prowler]

Yeah...I may be called a stinking SJW (the new witch hunt) or whatever for saying this but I do think there is a conservative counter culture going on in recent years, and I find that kind of sad...

Like I've said, the youth usually likes to rebel against authority and power.

My mother once told me something like this:

"When the right-wing rules a country, the youth is largely left-wing. When the left-wing rules a country, the youth is largely right-wing".

[BartAllen]

It is weird how the modern left has taken on this moralistic outrage especially when it was the opposite 20 or so years ago. I'm old enough to remember when it was the religious right that was the thought police.

Frankly. I'm always going to disagree with the folks that want to limit free speech. Be it the super religious republicans of the 90's or the super ideological progressive left that now wants to limit free speech.

[Prowler]

It is weird how the modern left has taken on this moralistic outrage especially when it was the opposite 20 or so years ago. I'm old enough to remember when it was the religious right that was the thought police.

Frankly. I'm always going to disagree with the folks that want to limit free speech. Be it the super religious republicans of the 90's or the super ideological progressive left that now wants to limit free speech.
It is weird, indeed.

[plastroncafe]

When did the religious right stop being the thought police?

[sdp]

They used to have a lot of power and their leverage meant they could censor a lot of things. I grew up reading all the things that had been censored because of them.

Now it's the exact opposite who is censoring media because they got leverage thanks to social media and being able to band together to make a fuzz. I think we have seen the end of it, more and more I see people standing up to it.

[plastroncafe]

I think the reason you don't see as many Moral Majority people involved in grass roots activism anymore is because their movement has been legitimized and is working at the establishment level.

The religious right isn't as loud now, because they don't have to be.
They're actually at the table lobbying our legislators, when they're not legislators themselves.

You don't have to go searching far for their words because they are inscribed on the planks of party platforms.

[sdp]

I disagree, the only reason they are in power now was because of the push the American left did during the Obama years that people wanted to balance things out. We're still seeing the effects of the "PC" or whatever you may want to call it that became extreme during the past few years, so it wasn't grass roots, it started when they had power and now they don't want to give it up and i think just until recently that PC culture is losing its power with the majority as they've gone too extreme for most.

Similarly it was those religious groups that did the most damage when they had control, and they might've been loud when they didn't but they weren't causing as much trouble as time went on since they just weren't taken seriously anymore either.

I think it's easy to rally people into what's "right" for culture until either side goes to an extreme and they lose credibility and things balance out (only for the cycle to repeat). Which is what I'm guessing is happening right now, I'm guessing the next step is a more "centrist" view that most can cling on to instead of further dividing which has lead to the political mess right now.

[plastroncafe]

Having the Oval is not the same as controlling all three branches of the US Government, which is what the GOP has had for at least two election cycles now.

The only thing that's really died in the US is a rational right.
The right wing has gone so far right that centrist and right leaning Democrats are seen as left wing by comparison.

When people are calling Obama a socialist, that's when you know the political spectrum is entirely off its rocker.
Dude was a centrist, if anything.

But, we're just going to have to agree to disagree, and maybe we'll all still be around when the dust settles.
Because I don't see a right wing this pinned as one willing to come to the table for centrism.
They're just too angry for compromise.

[Prowler]

Yeah this PC thing is getting a bit out of hand. There's no need to force include black people and LGBT characters in every single work of fiction just to say you're not racist or homophobe. That's not gonna make racism and homophobia go away. For God's sake, people bitching about games like The Witcher not having any black people in it is ridiculous :lol:. I don't expect to see White people in anime or Asian movies I watch.

Sadly, lots of Americans(I underline and bold this just to make sure people know I'm not saying ALL of them are like this. Don't hit me pls :tlol:) seem to think diversity boils down to black and white people and overlook the fact that there's a TON of diversity in Europe, Africa, Latin America and Asia. Just because all Indians are brown doesn't mean there aren't many differences among them. Just like White people in Europe can be vastly different. A Pole and a Serb are both Slavs, but they're quite different. Just like I'm different from a Finnish guy.

[sdp]

We do have to agree to disagree since we already know our views :lol: But just to clear things up I don't think the current status quo is any good, I saw the elections as an extreme response from the people (among many other factors)

A more centrist person can come and fix things, I do think Obama was centrist on many things and wasn't extreme "left", the right just hated him because he was black and that was already extreme enough for them :lol: But that extreme culture of the left behand during his era, he even tried to speak against it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HWjGFjgEck) a few times, the first one was at a college but I couldn't find that clip.

Yeah this PC thing is getting a bit out of hand.


Sadly, lots of Americans(I underline and bold this just to make sure people know I'm not saying ALL of them are like this. Don't hit me pls :tlol:) seem to think diversity boils down to black and white people and overlook the fact that there's a TON of diversity in Europe, Africa, Latin America and Asia. Just because all Indians are brown doesn't mean there aren't many differences among them. Just like White people in Europe can be vastly different. A Pole and a Serb are both Slavs, but they're quite different. Just like I'm different from a Finnish guy.

This is it, There needs to be more understanding of other cultures and that being a world power means all their decisions affect the rest of the world. But even those bickering on who has the moral high ground are clueless.

[plastroncafe]

There's a lot that I'd say the Majority of Americans don't understand about Diversity, and I think that at least some of that comes down to geography.

We're really isolated, as a country. And we're also really HUGE as a country. I didn't really understand that for myself until the day I realized it takes as much time to fly from Boston to London as it does to fly from Boston to Los Angeles. That's...huge.

As for this extreme left idea, yeah...I don't buy that. I don't think anyone is anymore extreme on the left than they've ever been, it's just that the scale has shifted to the right so much it seems like there's more of them.

Again, Obama isn't a leftist, he's a centrist. So yeah, of course he was going to tell people on the left to tone it down, that's what centrists do.
And in the name of centrism, he didn't do nearly the amount of stuff that he said he was going to do, either because he was flat out stone-walled by the the right, or because he was trying to appease them in the name of group unity.

And that group, does not want unity.
They want theirs, and eff everyone else.
So when people come after Social Justice Warriors, or what ever buzzword salad phrase is being bandied about by the alt-write these days, they sound to me like the folks who poo-poo'd and tortured folks fighting for the ratification of the 19th Amendment, or who fought against the ADA.

[Prowler]

There's a lot that I'd say the Majority of Americans don't understand about Diversity, and I think that at least some of that comes down to geography.

We're really isolated, as a country. And we're also really HUGE as a country. I didn't really understand that for myself until the day I realized it takes as much time to fly from Boston to London as it does to fly from Boston to Los Angeles. That's...huge.



Sure, but it's fine to be ignorant about what's outside of your bubble as long as you admit it and don't tell/expect others to do things like you. ;)

[plastroncafe]

Sure, but it's fine to be ignorant about what's outside of your bubble as long as you admit it and don't tell/expect others to do things like you. ;)

Don't look at me, I'm one of those coastal elites who doesn't understand how real americans live their lives under the constant threat of the jackbooted PC Police.

[Prowler]

Don't look at me, I'm one of those coastal elites who doesn't understand how real americans live their lives under the constant threat of the jackbooted PC Police.

It was a general "you". Not personally aimed at you.

[plastroncafe]

It was a general "you". Not personally aimed at you.

:D
No I figured that.
Believe me, I'd love it if my country developed a sense of Long Game that focused on something other than Profit or Prophet.

[Prowler]

:D
No I figured that.
Believe me, I'd love it if my country developed a sense of Long Game that focused on something other than Profit or Prophet.
Speaking of which:

https://www.rawstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/dollar-bill-detail-money-on-shutterstock-800x430.jpg

:P

[sdp]

When you're on the other side of the fence, it's difficult to see that you're more alike than not. They, just like you think they're the "correct" side and the "with us or against us" mentality is the current problem we have right now.

T
As for this extreme left idea, yeah...I don't buy that. I don't think anyone is anymore extreme on the left than they've ever been, it's just that the scale has shifted to the right so much it seems like there's more of them.

You don't think, you don't buy that.


he didn't do nearly the amount of stuff that he said he was going to do, either because he was flat out stone-walled by the the right
Hasn't the left done the same with the remaining power they have with Trump?

And that group, does not want unity.
They want theirs, and eff everyone else.
Don't you think the other side thinks exactly the same as you here?

So when people come after Social Justice Warriors, or what ever buzzword salad phrase is being bandied about by the alt-write these days,

Aren't alt-right, nazis, white supremasists, gamergaters the same buzzrods used by the other side?

:D
No I figured that.
Believe me, I'd love it if my country developed a sense of Long Game that focused on something other than Profit or Prophet.
What country doesn't?

Do you think your circle of friends would sacrifice all the benefits they have to make a better world? For there to be winners there have to be losers and all those #firstworldproblems are because there's a third world doing all the heavy lifting. Now that's the real depressing world we live in and the real privilege that affects more people than anyone else and I would like to see change.

[Prowler]

Sadly, extremists on both sides have gotten more vocal in the current decade. It's a shame because I think both the left and the right have good ideas. And for the record, I tend to swing more to the left when ti comes to social matters and such.

As for the alt-right, back in the 80s/90s far-right wingers were usually skinheads and other type of people who engaged in violent behaviour, which really didn't help their cause. Nowadays they're going more by the clean cut and well dressed look in order to appeal to more people and other demographics.

A lot of people on both sides lack common sense. Being forced to pick between two extremes? No thanks.

[plastroncafe]

Hasn't the left done the same with the remaining power they have with Trump?

Nope.
Because there aren't any leftists with power.
Only centrists who happen to be left of the conservative.

Don't you think the other side thinks exactly the same as you here?

Here's the difference for me:
If you read the platform of the conservative party in the United States, it has planks that specifically reduce people like me to second class citizenship status.

Both sides aren't the same.

Aren't alt-right, nazis, white supremasists, gamergaters the same buzzrods used by the other side?

You're forgetting that alt-right, nazi, and gamergate are all buzzwords coined by those particular factions to describe their political movements.

These are self identifications.
As for white supremacy, that's not a buzz word, that's a literal thing.

Do you think your circle of friends would sacrifice all the benefits they have to make a better world? For there to be winners there have to be losers and all those #firstworldproblems are because there's a third world doing all the heavy lifting. Now that's the real depressing world we live in and the real privilege that affects more people than anyone else and I would like to see change.

This isn't a zero sum game.
We're talking about human rights and dignity, not pie.

As for #firstworldproblems, I present this:

It may surprise you, but folks in developing countries have cell phones and take selfies just as much as you do. Believe me. And their front-facing cameras go out of focus or they struggle to find a charger that matches their phone. Those aren’t first world problems. They are just problems.
Seriously, Stop Saying “First World Problems” (https://medium.com/@pgothman/seriously-stop-saying-first-world-problems-3b571fb098e9) (medium.com)

[Andrew NDB]

Because there aren't any leftists with power.

Is this true?

[Leo656]

What about that Ocasio-Cortez bimbo, who literally can't open her mouth without either lying or mangling the English language. :lol:

Her an' her Crazy Bug Eyes. :lol: Pretty sure she's got some pull right now. I mean, she SHOULDN'T, because she's an idiot, but since when has that ever mattered? :lol:

[Prowler]

Is this true?

Plas is gone, man. She won't reply to you.

[Xav]

A more centrist person can come and fix things, I do think Obama was centrist on many things and wasn't extreme "left", the right just hated him because he was black and that was already extreme enough for them :lol:Honestly I think the're probably more people claiming Obama was hated because he was black than those who actually did.

[Andrew NDB]

Plas is gone, man. She won't reply to you.

It was rhetorical. Though even if she was here, she'd had me blocked for months. Or at least, she said she did.