Do you prefer the Foot to be diverse or just be mostly Japanese

[PApagreg]

When I say diverse I mean The Foot has members(the ones who are actually ninjas) to be from different countries. For me it not only makes sense because real life shinobis weren't really picky when it came to choosing to train ninjas but also interesting because I could see different Foot ninjas having their own style depending on where they are from.

[IndigoErth]

Don't have too much of a preference. If like, say, 2012, it's a Shredder who had still been in Japan and then came to the U.S. only recently in pursuit of his messed up sense of revenge, it might make sense for him to bring some of his best Foot members from Japan with him. But also fill it out more by taking on additional members from around NYC once set up in the U.S.

Side note... seeing a few women among them would be totally okay. Just saying. (In addition to Karai being a high ranking member. How about some in the lower ranks as well.)

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I prefer the Foot to be mostly Japanese like a Yazuka type elite organization, but they would totally hire a diverse range of thugs and crooks to do their dirty work.

[Ninjinister]

If the Lin Kuei can recruit guys from Botswana and Prague, I don't see why Foot couldn't have members from anywhere.

Whether they're being hired for talent or cannon fodder, country of origin doesn't necessitate their qualification.

[Krutch]

I could care less as long as they're not robots.

[neatoman]

Mirage made it clear that the Foot under Shredder's command was a particular branch in New York that was only started 15 years earlier, not the Foot as a whole. In order for this branch to actually act independently from the Japanese main group, as well being able to ignore it the way they did in City at War, they would pretty much have to consist of more people than those who started it. In other words, even if the Foot is all Japanese in Japan, the American branch probably has a considerable amount of Americans, if it's not primarily Americans.

I could care less as long as they're not robots.

Agreed, I hate the damn robots. It's stupid, even for kids' cartoons.

[Candy Kappa]

Outside of Japan I'd expect the Clan to be fairly diverse, it's practical for local recruitment and for job related purposes like open infiltration.

[Andrew NDB]

Japanese only.

[newfan]

With maybe the exception of skilled individuals from elsewhere being brought in or connections, lower ranks if they are spending time out of Japan but otherwise ninja level soldiers? Japanese

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Multi-ethnic makes the most sense outside of japan. People forget ninja clans are simply martial arts based mercenary guilds; concepts like honor and national pride and negative attitudes towards 'gajin' mean NOTHING to them. Profits and successful missions are all that matter, so they would recruit anyone who had the skills or potential to be good ninja. And limiting themselves to Japanese-only recruits outside of japan seriously limits the talent pool they can draw from.

Also, ninja clans were outcasts in Japanese society. Why would a group of social outcasts embrace the traditions and prejudices that made them outcasts? The only traditions they would embrace would be personal clan traditions.

[Ninjinister]

Why would a group of social outcasts embrace the tradtions and prejudices that made them outcasts?

I 'unno man, that sounds like the internet to me.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I 'unno man, that sounds like the internet to me.

lol, can't argue with that bit of humorous logic. :lol: But traditional recruiting of Japanese-only would severely cripple the organization's manpower resources outside of Japan itself.

[Ninjinister]

Game recognize game.

[plastroncafe]

I 'unno man, that sounds like the internet to me.

Well played!
Really well played!
:D

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Diverse. I really like how they have been portrayed in IDW. Jennika is an interesting character, and it makes sense for US Foot to be diverse.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Japanese in Japan. Japanese and Japanese-Americans in the USA.

[Wesley]

I prefer the Foot to be diverse.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I always figured the leadership was mostly Japanese, with a lot of the rank and file membership being whoever could be recruited from the seamy underbelly of NYC.

[Spike Spiegel]

I always figured the Foot would acquire members from local populations they expand into.

Have there ever been any definitive stories about life among the members of the Foot, or what the recruitment process is like? Maybe the Turtles cameo as antagonists or something, but the main focus would be on the Foot hierarchy and maybe how they view Shredder/whoever the leader is compared to how we are conditioned to see him as a villain.

It seems like that would a cool side story for IDW or a miniseries of some kind.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I always figured the Foot would acquire members from local populations they expand into.

Have there ever been any definitive stories about life among the members of the Foot, or what the recruitment process is like? Maybe the Turtles cameo as antagonists or something, but the main focus would be on the Foot hierarchy and maybe how they view Shredder/whoever the leader is compared to how we are conditioned to see him as a villain.

It seems like that would a cool side story for IDW or a miniseries of some kind.

Mirage Tales V2 did one or two issues on that... and of course, the Jennika backup story in IDW "What is Ninja".

Pretty sure that's it, though.

[Andrew NDB]

Barring extreme exceptions, no, I don't think ancient Japanese ninja clans would be very... indiscriminate or secular.

Japanese and Japanese Americans who are vouched for by "old family." Nobody else.

[CyberCubed]

Only Asians are really good at martial arts, especially in a deadly clan, so it should only be Japanese.

[Andrew NDB]

It's not about ability, it's about people they can absolutely trust, absolutely. "Old school Japanese" don't really do that with any gaijin... like, at all. And we know The Foot is an ancient Japanese clan because we've literally seen its formation in Feudal Japan. You don't see any random dudes in the Yakuza.

It's when we get into stuff like (versions of) the Foot having, like, open recruitment for random white dudes off the streets of New York, or things like having Karai or Saki openly employing characters like Bebop and Rocksteady in their ranks that I lose any ability to take it seriously.

I mean, think about it. If you're Oroku Saki, who are you going to trust? Are you going to trust Jason Anderson, who you trained for a couple weeks and is now one of your Foot Soldiers, isn't going to rat out your whole criminal organization the first time he gets caught by the police (or worse, go in with a wire and bust you directly)? Are you going to trust Kenshin Hayabusa, whose grandfather in Japan vouches for him, whose whole family you know and trust from the old country, is probably going to slit his own wrists before doing that?

It'd be the latter. It would always be the latter. It would never be the former.

[PApagreg]

Barring extreme exceptions, no, I don't think ancient Japanese ninja clans would be very... indiscriminate or secular.

Japanese and Japanese Americans who are vouched for by "old family." Nobody else.

1. Like Panda and I said ninja clans weren't really picky in fact most of them comprised of peasants, farmers, orphans or just people from the lower caste of society. Also Ninjas were very pragmatic so they would't really care what skin color or nationality someone was as long as they bring results

2.If you were trying to gain intelligence in say an eastern European country it would make more sense to send in someone who can blend into a background which you can't really do if you see in a full bloodied Japanese.

3. Most of the time the Foot are used as cannon fodder so there is only so many of Japanese or Japanese Americans who are vouched by "old family".

It's not about ability, it's about people they can absolutely trust, absolutely. "Old school Japanese" don't really do that with any gaijin... like, at all. And we know The Foot is an ancient Japanese clan because we've literally seen its formation in Feudal Japan.

It's when we get into stuff like (versions of) the Foot having, like, open recruitment for random white dudes off the streets of New York, or things like having Karai or Saki openly employing characters like Bebop and Rocksteady in their ranks that I lose any ability to take it seriously.

Again ninja clans didn't care for Japanese tradition also just because the Foot was formed in ancient Japan it doesn't mean they can't adapt to modern times.

[CyberCubed]

In the Mirage comics in Tales they did show "white" New Yorkers being recruited to become Foot. The same thing happens in the first two movies, where Keno goes undercover to join the Foot Clan, and Casey did the same thing in the first movies. In 4kids/Nick it was also pretty much stated Purple Dragons or other street punks in New York were recruited to become Foot Soldiers eventually.

I mean if you have a NY branch of the Foot, logically you wouldn't expect them to all be Japanese. It's easier to infiltrate businesses and to do drug/weapons trading with native New Yorkers who know the area than some foreign Japanese.

[Prowler]

I've never thought about it, but I guess I don't care. I mean, with Shredder living in NYC and all it's hard to amass a huge army of foot soldiers with just Japanese nationals. Plus, he often forms alliances or cooperates with other underworld groups. Hun was one of his most trustworthy men in the 2k3 series, for example.

And it's not like you really know what 99.9% of the foot look like behind their masks, anyway.

[Spike Spiegel]

The idea that a fictional clan of ninjas has to be discriminatory in a historically/culturally realistic manner in a world where we are also asked to believe in aliens, sentient robots, and talking animals that teach each other martial arts through books and muscle memory is kind of...funny, to say the least.

[Prowler]

Multi-ethnic makes the most sense outside of japan. People forget ninja clans are simply martial arts based mercenary guilds; concepts like honor and national pride and negative attitudes towards 'gajin' mean NOTHING to them. Profits and successful missions are all that matter, so they would recruit anyone who had the skills or potential to be good ninja. And limiting themselves to Japanese-only recruits outside of japan seriously limits the talent pool they can draw from.

Also, ninja clans were outcasts in Japanese society. Why would a group of social outcasts embrace the traditions and prejudices that made them outcasts? The only traditions they would embrace would be personal clan traditions.

I could swear in the first Mirage issue, one of the foot ninja calls Raphael a "gaijin" in a derrogatory sense. I doubt that's gonna offend a mutant turtle, though :lol:

It's not about ability, it's about people they can absolutely trust, absolutely. "Old school Japanese" don't really do that with any gaijin... like, at all. And we know The Foot is an ancient Japanese clan because we've literally seen its formation in Feudal Japan. You don't see any random dudes in the Yakuza.

It's when we get into stuff like (versions of) the Foot having, like, open recruitment for random white dudes off the streets of New York, or things like having Karai or Saki openly employing characters like Bebop and Rocksteady in their ranks that I lose any ability to take it seriously.

I mean, think about it. If you're Oroku Saki, who are you going to trust? Are you going to trust Jason Anderson, who you trained for a couple weeks and is now one of your Foot Soldiers, isn't going to rat out your whole criminal organization the first time he gets caught by the police (or worse, go in with a wire and bust you directly)? Are you going to trust Kenshin Hayabusa, whose grandfather in Japan vouches for him, whose whole family you know and trust from the old country, is probably going to slit his own wrists before doing that?

It'd be the latter. It would always be the latter. It would never be the former.

Actually, the Yakuza has a lot of people of Korean and Chinese ancestry, I think. Japanese of Korean ancestry have historically suffered discrimination in Japan, so I guess some joined the Yakuza and other gangs seeing no choice other than a life in crime.

But I guess the foot could have non-Japanese people in it but only in the lower ranks. The higher ranks would be exclusive to Japanese people.

In the Mirage comics in Tales they did show "white" New Yorkers being recruited to become Foot. The same thing happens in the first two movies, where Keno goes undercover to join the Foot Clan, and Casey did the same thing in the first movies. In 4kids/Nick it was also pretty much stated Purple Dragons or other street punks in New York were recruited to become Foot Soldiers eventually.

I mean if you have a NY branch of the Foot, logically you wouldn't expect them to all be Japanese. It's easier to infiltrate businesses and to do drug/weapons trading with native New Yorkers who know the area than some foreign Japanese.
Yeah, good points.

The idea that a fictional clan of ninjas has to be discriminatory in a historically/culturally realistic manner in a world where we are also asked to believe in aliens, sentient robots, and talking animals that teach each other martial arts through books and muscle memory is kind of...funny, to say the least.
I don't think racism has ever been a thing in TMNT. The only thing close to it is hatred for mutants. But if you're gonna write stories for mature audiences and such I don't see why racism or xenophobia couldn't be a thing to touch upon.

[Andrew NDB]

The idea that a fictional clan of ninjas has to be discriminatory in a historically/culturally realistic manner in a world where we are also asked to believe in aliens, sentient robots, and talking animals that teach each other martial arts through books and muscle memory is kind of...funny, to say the least.

This sounds awfully close to Crisler's Law (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Crisler%27s%20Law) to me...

[Utrommaniac]

I think of it as "depends on which sector".

Of course in Japan, they're going to be more Japanese on account of the population being so homogeneous.

But, in an area like New York, it's probably going to be a lot harder to find people with Japanese ancestry (which is part of why I think a Los Angeles-centered alternate universe would be pretty interesting) - and a lot easier to find "White Nerds" who would jump at the chance to join a ninja clan - even if they mostly end up cannon fodder, and the dozens of street gangs that would probably agree to being part of something bigger and more powerful than them.


It makes sense that they'd be diverse out of necessity, rather than the "just because" factor.

[plastroncafe]

Ninjas blend.
There are certainly benefits to having folks in your organization that can blend into a variety of situations and locations. With that in mind, I'm not particularly bothered by The Foot recruiting folks from a variety of backgrounds.

From a writing perspective, if the Foot Clan was going to be ethnically homogeneous, then I'd be sure to add some other characters of that ethnicity who aren't bad guys.

Otherwise you get Season II Daredevil, and...we deserve better than that.

[Andrew NDB]

Otherwise you get Season II Daredevil, and...we deserve better than that.

I don't buy into this mentality at all. It isn't the writers' duty to balance all races equally and fairly in terms of good guys and bad guys in... everything. Sometimes an evil Japanese ninja clan is just an evil Japanese ninja clan.

Could they have included "Ryu, the helpful supporting Japanese character" that season to counterbalance the evil Japanese ninja clan? Sure. But they didn't, and who cares.

[PApagreg]

I mean, think about it. If you're Oroku Saki, who are you going to trust? Are you going to trust Jason Anderson, who you trained for a couple weeks and is now one of your Foot Soldiers, isn't going to rat out your whole criminal organization the first time he gets caught by the police (or worse, go in with a wire and bust you directly)? Are you going to trust Kenshin Hayabusa, whose grandfather in Japan vouches for him, whose whole family you know and trust from the old country, is probably going to slit his own wrists before doing that?

It'd be the latter. It would always be the latter. It would never be the former.

The problem with that is that while Kenshin Hayabusa is more trustworthy there aren't a lot of people like him, also if Kenshin dies you are going to have a hard time finding someone with his credentials. Meanwhile there are thousands of Jason Anderson and Akira Watanabe and the former is better at infiltrating the rival biker gang from Alabama or the Crips/Bloods in LA.



But I guess the foot could have non-Japanese people in it but only in the lower ranks. The higher ranks would be exclusive to Japanese people.


I personally think that would't work, it would be very hard to have a Japanese person representing the "France" branch or the "Dubai" branch also I doubt the non-Japanese Foot would be happy that the higher up positions would only be open to people of Japanese blood.

[Prowler]

The problem with that is that while Kenshin Hayabusa is more trustworthy there aren't a lot of people like him, also if Kenshin dies you are going to have a hard time finding someone with his credentials. Meanwhile there are thousands of Jason Anderson and Akira Watanabe and the former is better at infiltrating the rival biker gang from Alabama or the Crips/Bloods in LA.



I personally think that would't work, it would be very hard to have a Japanese person representing the "France" branch or the "Dubai" branch also I doubt the non-Japanese Foot would be happy that the higher up positions would only be open to people of Japanese blood.
France and Dubai? The foot now have branches in those places? Are they becoming a major corporation nowadays? Damn. Back in my day they were only present in Japan and USA(New York City only afaik).

Well the upper ranks would be... Shredder and Karai basically. Doubt most of the foot clan members, Japanese or not, would want to rule it and become the next Shredder. So I doubt there'd be much tension among them.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

First off, the idea of the modern
Foot clan being around is ridiculous, no ninja clan survived the meji restoration, period. Second, the whole don't trust gaijin this is historically B.S... Japanese clan employed, befriended, and trusted gajin, and even adopted them into thier clans throughout Japanese history. "Honor"in Japan and the surrounding countries wasn't really about what you did and how you acted, it was how people thought you acted. You adopt bob the samurai into your clan? Perfectly fine, as long as you hide it from the other clans. Avenging cousin Ryus death? You hated cousin ryu, but you make the effort to make the appearance of trying to avenge him. In Japan, clan honor was never about duty and obligations, it was about the appearance of duty and obligation, "saving face". So the foot eould, at best, only pay lip Service to "dont trust gaijin"

[Andrew NDB]

The problem with that is that while Kenshin Hayabusa is more trustworthy there aren't a lot of people like him, also if Kenshin dies you are going to have a hard time finding someone with his credentials. Meanwhile there are thousands of Jason Anderson and Akira Watanabe and the former is better at infiltrating the rival biker gang from Alabama or the Crips/Bloods in LA.

Why would a Japanese ninja gang have any interest in infiltrating biker gangs or Crips/Bloods? Biker gangs are pretty threadbare, and Bloods and Crips are way, way beneath them. Do you think Oroku Saki cares one iota about the 13 Sureños or 74 Hoova Crips? They will kill you, sure, but their trade is crack cocaine, meth, bullets, and baggy pants. They'd be far more apt to eliminate them and assume their clientele, if anything, before they'd remotely consider "infiltrating them." What would that even accomplish?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Widening their sphere of influence by absorbing their clients directly? Just a guess.

[Prowler]

First off, the idea of the modern
Foot clan being around is ridiculous, no ninja clan survived the meji restoration, period. Second, the whole don't trust gaijin this is historically B.S... Japanese clan employed, befriended, and trusted gajin, and even adopted them into thier clans throughout Japanese history. "Honor"in Japan and the surrounding countries wasn't really about what you did and how you acted, it was how people thought you acted. You adopt bob the samurai into your clan? Perfectly fine, as long as you hide it from the other clans. Avenging cousin Ryus death? You hated cousin ryu, but you make the effort to make the appearance of trying to avenge him. In Japan, clan honor was never about duty and obligations, it was about the appearance of duty and obligation, "saving face". So the foot eould, at best, only pay lip Service to "dont trust gaijin"

Yeah. Just like it would not make sense for the modern foot clan to rely on swords and such only. In the 2k3 series, Shredder's tower was obviously well equipped with modern technology. Granted he was an alien in that series, but still. Sci-fi is a big part of the TMNT property, so I have no issues with modern and future technology mixing with ancient ninja clans to some degree.

Things are never black and white. Even if a clan on principle would be against gaijins joining, they'd always make an exception to the rule or two if they felt they really needed to. Making some connections with local New Yorkers only seems wise to me.

In the Sopranos I think Tony didn't like black people much, but yet he had some black business associates, for example.

[Andrew NDB]

Widening their sphere of influence by absorbing their clients directly? Just a guess.

You really think the Foot would have any interest in "absorbing" these guys?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--sFAvfOq---/18j5dlt3yxnjxjpg.jpg

Or these guys?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SeDpjGKUvVQ/hqdefault.jpg

[PApagreg]

Why would a Japanese ninja gang have any interest in infiltrating biker gangs or Crips/Bloods? Biker gangs are pretty threadbare, and Bloods and Crips are way, way beneath them. Do you think Oroku Saki cares one iota about the 13 Sureños or 74 Hoova Crips? They will kill you, sure, but their trade is crack cocaine, meth, bullets, and baggy pants. They'd be far more apt to eliminate them and assume their clientele, if anything, before they'd remotely consider "infiltrating them." What would that even accomplish?

You do know that there is more to ninjas than direct combat right in fact combat is pretty much a last resort when it comes to ninjas. Their biggest trade is spying, espionage, sabotage, and infiltration. Their goal is low risk and high reward, for example why go out and start a gang war with Blood/Cripes and the Hells Angels when you can just send the leaders the heads of their top enforcers/dealers and in order to know said top enforcers you might need to send in a spy to gather intel. Another thing is that Shredder can't kill every single member because whether he like it or not the old pushers know the areas and the people who live in them a lot better than he does so he probably needs to keep a few of them alive and still needs a spy to make sure none of them are planning on either betraying him or bamboozle him off of the profits.

You really think the Foot would have any interest in "absorbing" these guys?

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--sFAvfOq---/18j5dlt3yxnjxjpg.jpg

Or these guys?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/SeDpjGKUvVQ/hqdefault.jpg


I mean in most incarnations the Foot absorbs The Purple Dragon so why not them.

[Andrew NDB]

You do know that there is more to ninjas than direct combat right in fact combat is pretty much a last resort when it comes to ninjas. Their biggest trade is spying, espionage, sabotage, and infiltration. Their goal is low risk and high reward, for example why go out and start a gang war with Blood/Cripes and the Hells Angels when you can just send the leaders the heads of their top enforcers/dealers and in order to know said top enforcers you might need to send in a spy to gather intel. Another thing is that Shredder can't kill every single member because whether he like it or not the old pushers know the areas and the people who live in them a lot better than he does so he probably needs to keep a few of them alive and still needs a spy to make sure none of them are planning on either betraying him or bamboozle him off of the profits.

In the day to day, the Foot's main business is protection rackets in NYC. Crips and Bloods would be counter-intuitive to that end. If anything, the Foot would eliminate Crips and Bloods from their streets in short order so ensure maximum protection payments and "clients."

I mean in most incarnations the Foot absorbs The Purple Dragon so why not them.

Sadly, "most incarnations" of TMNT kind of suck.

[newfan]

As others have said, where they are being based elsewhere they might have some in the case they need to fill numbers at the bottom line but otherwise as I said before, besides maybe a select few due to expertise? and also having connections in the city, the ninja soldiers? mostly Japanese.

Edit: RE: Purple dragons for example, were they actually foot members in some versions or did Shredder just take control of them or make use of them sometimes?

[Andrew NDB]

As others have said, where they are being based elsewhere they might have some in the case they need to fill numbers at the bottom line but otherwise as I said before, besides maybe a select few due to expertise and having also connections in the city, the ninja soldiers? mostly Japanese.

I mean, I could see, like, a single agent of the Foot acting like a "handler" to regular city gangs. Maybe. But that wouldn't make the gangs "members" of the Foot.

[newfan]

I mean, I could see, like, a single agent of the Foot acting like a "handler" to regular city gangs. Maybe. But that wouldn't make the gangs "members" of the Foot.

That's what I was thinking, also I think it came up in the other thread of the foot hiring street gangs etc, one the members said something about Shredder controlling rather than recruiting.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Edit: RE: Purple dragons for example, was they actually foot members in some versions or did Shredder just take control of them or make use of them sometimes?

To be fair (atleast in some versions), I don't actually recall the Purple Dragons being members of the Foot, but rather working for them. Same with Bebop and Rocksteady, who were never Foot Clan members but were subservient to them.

[PApagreg]

In the day to day, the Foot's main business is protection rackets in NYC. Crips and Bloods would be counter-intuitive to that end. If anything, the Foot would eliminate Crips and Bloods from their streets in short order so ensure maximum protection payments and "clients."



Sadly, "most incarnations" of TMNT kind of suck.

I mean not really in fact it would improve the protection racket business because they can use the street gangs(Crips/Bloods) to rough up certain business and neighborhood while they use Foot to stage an event to get a good reputation from the community. Also the Foot is going to need all funds they can get so they can still use the gangs to sell drugs or any black market goods.

[Garfield]

I have an affinity for the 1990's Ninja Turtles Movie, with one of the main story lines being The Shredder seducing the troubled youth of New York City with materialism in exchanged for them committing crimes for him, and allowing the more tenacious, talented and loyal of them to become Foot soldiers "Full members of the Foot". all with the gritty urban setting and American kids being either part of the Foot as or grunts.

But the foot being all Japanese can work just as well, depends on the kind of story you want to tell.

[pferreira]

Sadly, "most incarnations" of TMNT kind of suck.Except Mirage Vol 1? :ohwell:

[plastroncafe]

I would not make that exception.
There's all kinds of stuff wrong with Mirage Vol 1.

[Ninjinister]

I would not make that exception.
There's all kinds of stuff wrong with Mirage Vol 1.

I honestly thinking about this a few weeks ago:

While there is a lot that I personally enjoy about it, there is not a lot that I believe would considered "good" from an objective standpoint. And yes, I am just talking about the non-guest era stuff. Actually there was some guest era stuff I'd say was better than anything P&K put out then.

[Andrew NDB]

Actually there was some guest era stuff I'd say was better than anything P&K put out then.

Absolutely. A whole volume written and drawn, say, by Rick McCollum & Bill Anderson could have been mind-blowing, possibly revolutionary. Or even like a 10, 20 issue back-to-back run by A.C. Farley? Man.

There's all kinds of stuff wrong with Mirage Vol 1.

In your opinion.