Texas high school shooting

[Andrew NDB]

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/santa-fe-texas-shooting/index.html

Sounds like 8-10 already dead. They've found explosives, too. The assumption is that it's a white dude, I guess? I'm not seeing any reports about what kind of gun it was.

[TurtleTitan97]

Good grief.

[Katie]

I saw reports that people had found his Facebook page before it was deleted. White...or white/ hispanic dude with a Slavic sounding name.

He had a pic of a military looking coat with communist, nazi, fundi Christian, and Pagan patches. Also bisexual pride pins. Also was a football player at the school.

Seems like an Edgelord

[Andrew NDB]

Seems like an Edgelord

What is that?

[Katie]

Someone who is trying too hard to be dark and edgy


Edit to add link about shooter:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2018/05/18/texas-high-school-shooting-suspect-identified/amp/

[plastroncafe]

Never thought I'd fondly look back on the days when "dark and edgy" meant telling someone you didn't mourn your dead grandmother enough.

[ProphetofGanja]

I saw reports that people had found his Facebook page before it was deleted. White...or white/ hispanic dude with a Slavic sounding name.

He had a pic of a military looking coat with communist, nazi, fundi Christian, and Pagan patches. Also bisexual pride pins. Also was a football player at the school.

Seems like an Edgelord

That's a very eclectic variety of self-identifiers.

[Katie]

Seems like he was using them as totems of virtue.

Like the Nazi cross was strength or something. He had a whole list about what it meant to him. I didn’t save the list from my original source.

[Andrew NDB]

Sounds like... he is Greek?

Nothing released yet about what gun was used but I'm guessing it had to be a handgun since it sounds like... he just kind of got up and started shooting in art class? Hard to conceal an AR-15 in your backpack.

[Katie]

Sawed off shotgun and maybe an AR

[plastroncafe]

I'm seeing reports of pipe bombs as well.
Where was this kid radicalized?

[Andrew NDB]

Sawed off shotgun and maybe an AR

I could see a sawed off shotgun stuffed into a backpack... but an AR? Eh...

[Katie]

May be another incel....like the Toronto guy. I’ve seen those groups celebrating him online

[Prowler]

Ugh another one of these cases.

[plastroncafe]

It's a shame about the word Incel.
Used to mean something other than entitled misogynistic manbaby.

[Katie]

I could see a sawed off shotgun stuffed into a backpack... but an AR? Eh...

Texas governor says it was the shotgun and a .38. Both legally owned by the father.

[plastroncafe]

Was the shotgun sawed off?
Because I didn't think those were legal, depending on the length of the barrel.

[Andrew NDB]

Was the shotgun sawed off?
Because I didn't think those were legal, depending on the length of the barrel.

I'm assuming sawed off enough to fit in his backpack... so definitely illegal.

[Autbot_Benz]

NRA be like after this gun shooting

https://i.imgur.com/NSCBjUn.gif

Not to mention more useless thoughts and prayers from our NRA bought politicians.

[Katie]

Was the shotgun sawed off?
Because I didn't think those were legal, depending on the length of the barrel.

Some states let you own a sawed shotgun if you buy a special permit and pay a special tax. Not sure what Texas does. Kid could have cut it this morning too. Making a legally owned shotgun an illegal weapon.

[joe-eyeball]

Some states let you own a sawed shotgun if you buy a special permit and pay a special tax. Not sure what Texas does. Kid could have cut it this morning too. Making a legally owned shotgun an illegal weapon.


Short barreled shotguns are NFA items and are illegal unless you file with the ATF and pay a $200 tax stamp which comes with about a 6 month wait for approval. He probably just hacked it down himself. Or perhaps he acquired one of the two perfectly legal in most states short barreled shotguns that do not require tax stamp or wait because these guns were manufactured from the ground up as short barreled guns and not modified from longer barely versions.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Saw this on the news earlier today. Oddly enough, one of my guildmates on a game I play online is from there, and was very upset about it. She mentioned dealing with family matters from the incident.

[Andrew NDB]

I was very curious what the liberal agenda would be in this shooting, as this shooting is completely counter to the Florida one that had all the high schoolers protesting. This was a 17 year-old child, not an adult, that grabbed his dad's guns (and we can get into a separate discussion about the parents' stake in the blame here and I'm all for that, and I do believe they have a large stake of blame in things for at least two reasons I can think of)... literally not one thing David Hogg and the others have been protesting for "gun reform" (moving legal gun age to 21, banning "assault-style rifles") would have done one thing to prevent this. Handguns are legal. Shotguns are legal. Neither are scary-looking "assault-style rifles" and this child bypassed all laws by simply... grabbing daddy's guns and stuffing them in a backpack.

So here's the angle:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/its-the-guns/560771/

"We want to get rid of all guns. Because other countries. And this."

Yikes. But at least... honest, now, since I guess there's really no other angle to attack this vs. the last one? Bring on the UK bins with the butterknife and screwdriver deposit symbol next (as literally exists now in the UK), I guess?

[plastroncafe]

Apparently a counter-terrorism think tank started watching social media shortly after news of the story broke. It took 30 minutes for the fake Facebook pages to start picking up speed.

So don't trust everything you hear regarding the shooter.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Why is it always so important that those behind all these school massacres played videogames?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-texas-santa-fe-high-school-20180518-story.html

[PApagreg]

So here's the angle:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/05/its-the-guns/560771/

"We want to get rid of all guns. Because other countries. And this."


Andrew show me the part where the article said "We should get rid of guns"

[Leo656]

Why is it always so important that those behind all these school massacres played videogames?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-texas-santa-fe-high-school-20180518-story.html

The same reason people insist making all guns go away will make crazy and violent people stop being crazy and violent.

We don't want to admit we have a People Problem. We don't want to fix the mental health care industry in America because we'd rather pretend those people don't exist. We don't want to admit that an entire generation of "parents" failed to raise their kids with empathy and/or coping skills because it was easier to hand them a tablet or smartphone and keep them quiet. We don't want to admit that getting kids hooked on amphetamines by age 6 because they're "hyperactive" was a really, really, REALLY bad idea.

Human beings demand a Convenient Boogeyman so they don't have to come up with Actual Solutions. It HAS to be guns, or video games, or TV and Movies.

It's never, EVER Human Error, or the fact that human beings come out of the box sh*tty and are only going to get sh*ttier as they age, unless they're raised properly. Admitting it's a People Problem is discouraging, because the solutions are more complicated than anyone wants to deal with.

Oh, but if the problem is something we can scream about, march against, and write up a bunch of meaningless legislation that punishes and inconveniences those who obey the law while keeping things "business as usual" for those who don't... well, that's easy.

[IndigoErth]

If we can't decrease the amount of them and stop being such a gun obsessed culture, I wish the technology would at least improve in a way that creates better safety to some degree.

I've thought for some years now that the design needs to become more high-tech... Start creating guns with a hand print reader in the grip that will allow it to only fire for the actual owner. (Who had no trouble passing deep background checks.) And make them somehow tamper proof and nonworking if screwed with.

Don't take away the others from people, but stop manufacturing them and the ammo that goes with them... Let people who own them keep their relics as vintage collectables. It wouldn't be a fast solution (maybe not even 100% due to some presumably knowing how to make ammo, though the larger majority probably won't be capable), but eventually it would at least decrease gun theft and these damn kids taking them from parents if the thing won't fire for anyone but the owner. (Granted it could be that a legit owner turns into a nut, but it would hopefully still be much fewer such incidences.)

[plastroncafe]

People, Americans in particular, are fond of easy solutions to complicated problems.

Because at the end of the day we don't mind who's inconvenienced, so long as it isn't us. So long as it's a THEM that has a problem why should WE change?

I'm not in Gun Fandom, so I don't know how to accurately address this issue within their community, nor should it be my responsibility to do so. But since the Gun Fandom seems to at least not see a problem, or at worst not care...then maybe it is up to the Big Bad Ol' Government to step in.

But yeah, we have a mental health issue in this country. We've had one for a while, and it's only getting worse the harder and harder it is for people to afford health care.

Or if they can afford it, they won't seek it out because of stigma, or because they're afraid people will come for their guns.

There's also the domestic abuse angle that is often under reported.

Plus the entitlement issue.

It's a big mess, with no easy answers...which is why people too stupid or lazy to address the big picture with no easy answers are all to willing to blame religion, video games, or the fact that a school has multiple fire exits.

It's important to remember that the current reading of the "well-regulated militia" clause is fairly new, and came about in backlash to the Black Panther Party open carrying. It went to the Supreme Court because a dude living in the DC area wanted to own a gun, and the laws there wouldn't let him.
Even the lawyers looking to bring the case didn't like using that dude as an example of their cause.

Not the least of which because he had a habit of using racially charged language.

[TurtleWA]

At this point I’m for regulating gun owners and sellers. Not the products. Currently I’m not so much for banning types of guns or ammo. But making laws holding gun owners and sellers more responsible when a gun they own is used in a crime.

As a gun owner you should have to prove you had all the safety measures in place but the shooter broke the gun safe electronic code or something. If you can’t prove you had the gun locked up tight then you should be prosecuted as an accomplice. Gun safes should be mandatory part of ownership.

If someone is drunk driving with a kid in the car I’m pretty sure they get arrested and the kid goes to child services. If you have your gun somewhat easily accessible, you get arrested and prosecuted if it’s used in a crime.

Maybe gun dealers need proof of gun safe ownership before selling the gun. Long gone are the days of a pistol in the bedside table drawer. Your kid or family friend gets your gun, you go to jail. Gun stores can’t prove the customer provided the means and intent to properly secure the firearm, they go to jail.

[joe-eyeball]

The same reason people insist making all guns go away will make crazy and violent people stop being crazy and violent.

We don't want to admit we have a People Problem. We don't want to fix the mental health care industry in America because we'd rather pretend those people don't exist. We don't want to admit that an entire generation of "parents" failed to raise their kids with empathy and/or coping skills because it was easier to hand them a tablet or smartphone and keep them quiet. We don't want to admit that getting kids hooked on amphetamines by age 6 because they're "hyperactive" was a really, really, REALLY bad idea.

Human beings demand a Convenient Boogeyman so they don't have to come up with Actual Solutions. It HAS to be guns, or video games, or TV and Movies.

It's never, EVER Human Error, or the fact that human beings come out of the box sh*tty and are only going to get sh*ttier as they age, unless they're raised properly. Admitting it's a People Problem is discouraging, because the solutions are more complicated than anyone wants to deal with.

Oh, but if the problem is something we can scream about, march against, and write up a bunch of meaningless legislation that punishes and inconveniences those who obey the law while keeping things "business as usual" for those who don't... well, that's easy.

This guy gets it! Bravo to you sir! America has been for quite some time a country where placing a band aid on everything just to get by is the way to go. The current American way is to pass the buck, finger point, and blame someone or something else for all of their problems. It’s never your fault!

Alcohol was a problem so they took it away and it created a black market only making things worse. Drugs are problem so they tried to make it look like they were do something about it and once again a black market that only seemed to increase the problem. Why on earth would any gun grabber think it would be any different with guns?

And anyone that says we’re not trying to take your guns is full of it. Go ahead take AR’s and assault style weapons and put magazine limits on things and when nothing changes it’ll be we’ve got to take more and more until there’s nothing left. That is the goal! If we lived in a country where people actually did their part, got along, reinstated family values, and took care of their own it wouldn’t matter how many guns there were. But that would be a monumental task to get people to work together and attack the REAL CAUSE and not just treat a symptom so certain people can feel like they accomplished something!

[IndigoErth]

If we lived in a country where people actually did their part, got along, reinstated family values, and took care of their own it wouldn’t matter how many guns there were.
And that makes the mentally ill not exist?

and not just treat a symptom so certain people can feel like they accomplished something!
Problem is, "gun grabbers" kind of exist, in two different senses, on still rather similar sides of the same coin. (Those too eager to take away and those too eager to 'grab' them and take up arms.) One thinks taking guns away will solve it? Too easy? Well, ya know... their counterpart that thinks throwing more guns at the problem is the answer is also an equally simple, equally stupid non-solution.

Honestly, if people are so hard up on being able to own all that they want, then they need to be the ones to take a far larger role in figuring out a workable solution. Not just throwing more guns at the problem

I mean, if tiger ownership became a big thing, but there was a problem with owner's neighbors getting attacked when they get loose, is it the neighbors job to figure out a solution...? No. It should be the owners taking a good look at what they might be able to improve on and their collective association of tiger owners in general.

If OWNERS and groups like the NRA would more willingly try hard to find something that works then people who don't share their gun interests might at least see that they're trying and less often feel like they need to be the ones to try to do something about, well, not wanting them or their kids to die like that. Because as it stands, most don't seem to be trying, they just defend a right to own and nothing more. That isn't enough.

[Rooish]

I think it's multifaceted.

America has extremely lax gun laws, and sorry guys, but every other rich nation has stricter gun laws. And we all have proportionally less gun violence.

The rampant individualism and the poor health care doesn't help the mental health crisis, I'm sure. But there are mental health problems everywhere. We had a lunatic in Toronto that ran people over with a van, because the van was easily accessible to him. Guns weren't. If the guns are easy to get, people will kill others with them.

And no one needs a semi-automatic or other rapid fire gun for any reason. I know that wasn't what was used here, but it's an issue with these shootings you guys have.

[TurtleWA]

I mean, if tiger ownership became a big thing, but there was a problem with owner's neighbors getting attacked when they get loose, is it the neighbors job to figure out a solution...? No. It should be the owners taking a good look at what they might be able to improve on and their collective association of tiger owners in general.

Though that’s like putting your life in another persons hands. If my neighbor had a tiger that’s known to escape from time to time you better believe I’d being doing something more than just trusting them to take care of it.

Like I said a few posts ago penalties need to be enforced for those that have guns and do not store them safely enough that they end up being used in a crime. Little Timmy gets Grandpa’s gun and commits a crime Grandpa is going to be in some severe trouble. Same thing if Sally gets into Grandmas medicine cabinet and takes pills for her and her friends and someone overdoses. Grandma is going to be in some trouble.

Yeah Timmy and Sally have personal accountability. But when you own products like firearms or pills that can end lives you also have responsibilities. So do doctors prescribing the pills and gun stores selling firearms. More penalties for all. Possible prison time and paying the families of victims to start with.

[Leo656]

America has extremely lax gun laws

Broad generalization, factually incorrect. My state, NJ, allegedly has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. We don't seem to have a lot of reported shootings, but there are too many variables to say it's solely related to the existing laws themselves. There's also tons of government corruption and organized crime is still a very real and active thing. You *could* say, "NJ has tough gun laws, thus fewer people get shot in NJ," but it's not a straight line from A to B.

Point being, though, some places in the U.S. may be lax, others definitely are more strict. I bristle at the "You Americans are gun-crazy" narrative. It's simply false. That's not what *you* specifically said, but it has been and is being said, so I felt it bears mentioning.
----------------------------------------------------------

As for proper care and storage of weapons; aside from my Dad, the only people I ever knew who owned guns - at least the ones I *know* owned guns; I'm sure a few simply never shared that information with me because it wasn't relevant - but anyway, the few gun owners I know all kept theirs in giant fridge-sized safes with one-to-several locks on them. That seems more than reasonable, and I don't think most gun owners would have a problem if that was made a mandatory storage method, punishable by law if not adhered to. Seems pretty common sense, to me. It may have made a difference in this case, where the shooter allegedly stole his father's guns; we'll never know, but it's a possibility.

Still wouldn't do jack sh*t to stop those pesky black-market types from getting them and storing them however they jolly well pleased... but it might help a smidge. If it would make people feel better, then maybe it's something to consider. It's a conversation worth having.

That said, all the gun owners I know are also among the most responsible people I know in general, and have all their sh*t super-together as a general rule. They hate it when this kinda sh*t happens, because then they get lumped in with the lunatics, despite being nothing at all like them. But they own a gun, or several, and therefore "are nuts" by proxy. "Guns are The Devil and anyone who likes them is evil by association" has become the narrative. That's unfair.

I don't own a gun and never will, but I simply don't think it's fair any time decent people are lumped in with ne'er-do-wells, simply by circumstance. Let's face it, nobody wants to see more shootings happen, but people shouldn't focus so much on "Guns" as they should focus on, "WHY does this generation default to Mass Murder as a reaction to disappointment?" We've always had guns, and we've always had bullies, and mentally ill people, but we haven't had this many mass shootings until the last 20 years or so.

Something changed. When you isolate the variables, you notice the patterns: Part-Time parents, kids raised by The Internet, without decency, manners, or empathy - and forget about "Discipline", that's a dirty word - combined with a pharmaceutical industry that targets children as "consumers" and convinces people that every kid who can't sit still has a "disorder", that can only be treated by pumping their still-developing brains full of chemicals it's going to take decades to fully gauge the side effects of.

When all of those things run parallel, I *really* question why "Guns" is all anyone can see as a reason why kids are snapping to such extreme degrees. There's SO much more that's wrong, that can actually BE fixed, if people had the right priorities.

But that would take a lot more effort. So, no, let's dump it all on guns and video games, pass a bill, and wallow in the satisfaction of a job well done... or at least, a Real Problem well-lip serviced. Eh?

Eh.

We had a lunatic in Toronto that ran people over with a van, because the van was easily accessible to him. Guns weren't. If the guns are easy to get, people will kill others with them.


But see, this anecdote actually does more to prove the point I'm always trying to make - That if a person wants to cause death and destruction, they will, with whatever is available. The actual tool itself is not the most relevant detail. If this Texas kid couldn't get his Dad's guns, he almost certainly would have brought a knife into art class, and he definitely would have been able to kill and injure at least a few people before he was taken down. 23 people? Maybe not, but still a few. He wanted to hurt people, and he did, and he would have anyway, gun or no gun, because he was a disturbed lunatic and nobody cared enough to intervene long before this happened, the way they should have.

Some people will say, "But he only killed/hurt so many because he had a GUN!" And what THAT says, is that it would be "acceptable" if he "only" killed three or four people with a knife (AND also ignores that he was also, apparently, making bombs... which is a whole other kind of "Holy SH*T, where were his parents at?", in my opinion).

I'm not comfortable with even the idea that the gun itself is so important to the narrative, that any other kind of fatal attack would somehow hypothetically be less bad simply by absence of a gun. Even one dead kid is too many, so the "At least it wasn't a gun" thing doesn't sit well with me. Crazy is Crazy, and Dead is Dead.

I guess I'm more of a Big Picture guy.

[PApagreg]

And anyone that says we’re not trying to take your guns is full of it. Go ahead take AR’s and assault style weapons and put magazine limits on things and when nothing changes it’ll be we’ve got to take more and more until there’s nothing left. That is the goal! If we lived in a country where people actually did their part, got along, reinstated family values, and took care of their own it wouldn’t matter how many guns there were. But that would be a monumental task to get people to work together and attack the REAL CAUSE and not just treat a symptom so certain people can feel like they accomplished something!
What you said isnt a solution in fact it basically boils down to "If everyone was nicer then there would be no crime" like if you want to critizize other peoples method fine but next time at least have an idea that's not something out of a PBS cartoon


Some people will say, "But he only killed/hurt so many because he had a GUN!" And what THAT says, is that it would be "acceptable" if he "only" killed three or four people with a knife (AND also ignores that he was also, apparently, making bombs... which is a whole other kind of "Holy SH*T, where were his parents at?", in my opinion).

I'm not comfortable with even the idea that the gun itself is so important to the narrative, that any other kind of fatal attack would somehow hypothetically be less bad simply by absence of a gun. Even one dead kid is too many, so the "At least it wasn't a gun" thing doesn't sit well with me. Crazy is Crazy, and Dead is Dead.

I guess I'm more of a Big Picture guy. Umm no unless the people he stabbed were either the disabled or children I doubt anyone wouldve died and if you dont believe there was a mass stabbing in 2014 and while 24 people got attacked none of them died http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26959628. You say it doesnt matter whether or not the guy have a knife but apparently its a difference between life ans death

[Leo656]

The "attacker's" own incompetence with handling the knife may have also been a factor in that particular case. I'd also have to see the knife.

That said, I maintain that if you have a knife in your hands and actual intent to kill (emphasis on "actual"), and you can't even effectively fatally injure one person, your heart wasn't in it and it's all for attention. Which is what most of these psychos are not-so-secretly after, anyway: Fame and/or Infamy.

That's another thing that changed. "Back in the day", stuff like this happened from time to time, and when it did, the press treated it thusly: "Something extremely bad happened, the perpetrator was Some Nut, and we're not going to dignify him or his actions by spending any more than the absolute bare minimum discussing this." The criminal was either executed or rotted to death in prison, and everyone happily moved on with their lives.

Now? Instant celebrity and non-stop media coverage. Everyone knows the shooter's name and life story within a half an hour of the incident (yet they constantly overlook all the decade-plus of Warning Signs that the person in question was a powder keg; always some "Not MY son!" enabling horse sh*t, like the Cruz kid). I blame Columbine in part for this; those two sh*theads made no secret in their tapes and diaries that a main driving factor was the idea that they would "live forever in infamy" for what they did, and they have. There are more than a few "troubled youths" who have LITERALLY grown up idolizing those two c*nts, and the endless case studies and analyses have more or less provided a "School Shooting How-To Guide" for people who identify with them.

We don't need to be turning these people into celebrities and martyrs. EVERY time this happens, there's immediate copycat threats within 48 hours at other schools. That's no coincidence; nor is it coincidence when someone like the current twat declares he's going to go out in a "blaze of glory", then turns chickensh*t and turns himself into the police instead. He simply realized that he can't enjoy his three hots and a cot in prison, or seeing his face all over the news, if he's dead. He'll more than likely be executed in 30 or 40 years after endless appeals and millions of dollars in taxpayer support, but until then, he's gonna be a STAR... by his own dubious definition.

And if you think that's not a factor, you've never been a teenage boy that "nobody liked and everyone picked on." If he was that unhappy with life, and REALLY wanted to die, he would have done the "honorable" thing and blown his own empty f*cking head off in his own room, and spared everyone else; nothing of value would have been lost. You don't do sh*t like this if you're NOT looking for attention; it's actually probably more of a motivator than "revenge", if we're being honest. A disproportionate number of mass shooters have been narcissists and sociopaths. Most had sh*tty upbringing, and almost all were put on psychiatric drugs at a questionable age.

ALL of that was important before a single one of them ever picked up a weapon, and it remains important now; but people don't like the longer, more detailed version of the "Cause/Effect" game. It has to be ONE easily-controlled factor. "Guns." "Video Games." Not people, though. NEVER the parents, certainly. Their kids were only assembling an arsenal and building pipe bombs in the f*cking garage; what were they supposed to do, invade their kids' privacy? Jesus.

See, I just think it's super important to count all the other dominoes that fell over BEFORE some maladjusted twat picked up a gun. It's never a random impulse, yet people try and convince themselves that "If only that darn GUN wasn't there, everything would've been perfectly fine!" No it wouldn't; kid probably would've bottled up his "issues" for a few more years before strangling his eventual wife or girlfriend to death. If he didn't do this, it would have been something else. How do I know that? Because nobody tried to stop this guy BEFORE he did what he did, despite everyone around him clearly seeing him as a dangerous and unstable person!

See, I've BEEN a "troubled youth with a sh*tty background and easy access to weapons" that multiple people over the years took the time to intervene on the behalf of, to ensure I did NOT become one of these c*nts. So I don't buy the excuses or the Blame Game. IF I had ever snapped and shot someone, I'd frankly be insulted if anyone tried to blame the gun and not me, because that's the reality of life. "When I do Good, give me all the credit; when I do Bad, give me all the blame." At least, that's how it used to work, and is supposed to. "Personal Responsibility" is another dirty word nowadays.

To place blame on an inanimate object, regardless of its designed function, removes some of the blame and guilt from the actual shooter(s). And I want the shooter(s) to carry 100% of the blame. That's all they deserve; not 99% blame, with even 1% blame for the tool(s) they used. 100% blame, for pulling the trigger in the first place, and for being such a worthless human being that something that happened to them in f*cking HIGH SCHOOL was somehow, in their minds, worth fatally hurting people over.

Again, what the F*CK happened to this generation? "This girl didn't wanna go out with me; better shoot up the school." "These kids all picked on me; better make them all pay, to show the world I DIDN'T deserve to be scorned and ostracized!" "I have feelings! I have value as a human being! Nobody appreciates me, though, so I'll just have to KILL THEM ALL! Then they'll realize they were wrong, and I'm NOT some dangerous wacko!" What. The. F*CK. These people are so goddamned "damaged" that their gut reaction to some of the most benign disappointments life can throw at them is to f*cking KILL PEOPLE.

.........I'm sorry, I'd honestly rather know why THAT's happening on a constant basis now, than to keep hearing the "guns" circle-jerk. If we're not going to even bother to collectively have the correct conversations, then nothing is going to change.
-----------------------


Y'know what I'd LOVE to see change? C*nts like this getting to live off tapayer dollars in the relative comfort of a prison cell for an extended period. He was caught, he confessed, there is NO question of guilt; just drag him out back and put a bullet in the back of his head, job done. Can't argue "taxpayer cost" when a single bullet costs less than a quarter, and it would be poetic justice. Actually, true "justice" would require him to be shot 23 or so times; and THAT"s just fine with me, too. F*ck this kid; even one more day above ground while 10 people are under it because he had a "bad day" is a supreme insult. Any human rights he had - including the right to exist - were given up when he decided that his "feelings" meant more than other people's lives. The punishment must be of equal measure to the crime; otherwise, it's not "punishment" at all, its tolerance. Well, I don't fancy to "tolerating" people like that. Any empathy or sympathy I may have hypothetically had for him or his "problems" evaporated when he decided "Everyone's gonna pay."

Dogs get put to sleep for biting someone, but a mass-murderer can escape justice in the name of "compassion". I have infinitely more sympathy for the dogs. No sh*t. A dog is reacting on instinct to protect itself; a murderer has made a willing and conscious decision to hurt people, and then acted upon it. The dog bites out of self-preservation and fear; the human murders because of a choice. The dog almost always gets put down; the human, only rarely, and only if they're from a state with f*cking common sense. What sense does ANY of that make?

It's f*cked up. All of it. Every single bit of this is f*cked up. But people just keep avoiding the Big Picture. Because Guns.

I guess it's just easier.

[Redeemer]

I think it's multifaceted.

America has extremely lax gun laws, and sorry guys, but every other rich nation has stricter gun laws. And we all have proportionally less gun violence.


Guns are not the problem it is the people.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43610936

London, a city that does not allow guns had more murders the past two months than the city of New York did where it is lawful to own a gun and who use to be notorious for gun violence. Its a people issue, not a gun issue. I think we need to enforce our gun laws more than anything and also pass some common sense laws.

[Leo656]

Guns are not the problem it is the people.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43610936

London, a city that does not allow guns had more murders the past two months than the city of New York did where it is lawful to own a gun and who use to be notorious for gun violence. Its a people issue, not a gun issue. I think we need to enforce our gun laws more than anything and also pass some common sense laws.

I heard that ol' Saucy Jack did some damage over there back in the day, too. Wonder what kinda heat he was packing? :lol: Surely he couldn't have murdered multiple women on what very well could have been two separate continents, as modern evidence suggests, if all he had was a flimsy old knife.

Come to think of it, most serial killers historically preferred anything BUT guns, as they're noisy, messy, and attract too much attention. Probably why they were almost never caught despite racking up rather impressive body count numbers. Then again, those cats usually actually wanted more than to make a big mess and tease Suicide-By-Cop so they could get their face on TV.

It's almost like nothing fits neatly into a little box, or something.

[PApagreg]

Guns are not the problem it is the people.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-43610936

London, a city that does not allow guns had more murders the past two months than the city of New York did where it is lawful to own a gun and who use to be notorious for gun violence. Its a people issue, not a gun issue. I think we need to enforce our gun laws more than anything and also pass some common sense laws.
Yeah and guess what London is still safer than 50 major cities from the USA, New York has one of the strictest gun laws in the country so bad example there also thats only in a 2 month time frame if we looked at it year by year then we see London having less murders than New York City. Also New York hasnt really been notorious for gun violence in years

[Leo656]

Yeah and guess what London is still safer than 50 major cities from the USA, New York has one of the strictest gun laws in the country so bad example there also thats only in a 2 month time frame if we looked at it year by year then we see London having less murders than New York City. Also New York hasnt really been notorious for gun violence in years


And a lot of THAT had a ton to do with Guliani's crackdown on gang violence and street crime, along with a parallel increase in Stop-And-Frisk, which is both a highly controversial but highly effective deterrent. Controversial because it disproportionately targets minorities, but effective because A. A huge number of people who were frisked in NYC for "being shady" turned out to be carrying - often ILLEGALLY carrying - regardless of why they were stopped, and furthermore often turned out to be violent career criminals on top of that, and B. People who would be highly likely to get frisked under those circumstances - i.e., gang members and drug dealers - either made it a point to not carry or simply did "business" elsewhere, and in either case they and their guns would no longer become a NYC-related statistic.

Point being, stories can be complicated.

See, here's another "problem" we have as people: Policies like "Stop-and-Frisk" do INFINITELY more tangible, measurable good to lower gun violence, and get illegal guns off of the streets and out of the hands of criminals and lunatics, than "Gun Control" in the generally spoken sense does. One involves Action, the other involves Words. Problem is, it's kind of inherently racist as a policy. BUT, it works, which is more than can be said about marches, protests, or Congressional chest-thumping. So what to do? Ignore a proven-effective method for combating crime and lowering gun violence, because it's "mean" or "inconvenient" to certain groups of people? Lots of people say Yes, but I personally think this is a case where the ends would totally justify the means. Because again, a LOT of those stop-and-frisk types may have been stopped "mostly" for being a minority, but ALSO turned out to be dangerous, violent criminals who would otherwise have slipped through the cracks. Shouldn't we just be grateful someone caught them before they hurt anyone else?

Should be cut-n'-dry, but it's not. This sh*t's crazy complicated. People will point to a place like NYC and say, "Look, it used to be a sh*thole, they cleaned it up a bit." Yeah, but ONLY by doing things that a lot of people have ethical objections to, even though the end result is much better for everyone. It's not like all the gangs and drug dealers just got jobs at the YMCA or something. The city only got "cleaned up" because the NYPD more or less started treating it like a war zone, with black people as "enemy combatants" until proven otherwise.

Personally, I acknowledge the racial bias inherent in the policies, but can't argue that the end result was a safer NYC environment for everyone, which should ultimately count for more, if we're seriously keeping score. Were they right? Wrong? Right on points, but Wrong on principle?
Depends what you grade on.

This is why these conversations are complicated. You can say, "Well, if people have to own a gun, they should have to be screened, be trained, pass a test, and keep their guns under lock and key," and mostly everyone agrees because that's all pretty good. But if you say, "Well, just make Stop-And-Frisk a nationwide policy, it's statistically proven effective," that's a whole other can of worms, because now you have people questioning if "safety" is worth the hardship, prejudice, inconvenience, sacrifice, and hurt feelings that other groups of people would endure for the end result.

Any place where things are "better", somebody had to eat sh*t to get everyone else to that point. It's unavoidable. And nobody wants to be the group that gets sh*t on, discriminated against, forced to relocate, or give up their Constitutionally-protected rights, just so things get better for Everyone Else. Which is totally understandable.

Again, it's a complicated conversation. And it's all conversation worth having, if we're ever going to see anything get better. But the "Guns are bad, just make 'em go away and everything else gets better" thing is fairy-tale horse sh*t. You can't, and it won't, so people need to shift gears to another angle, it's as simple as that.

[plastroncafe]

That's a correlation you're turning into a causation there.
But I have to admit, it's one I would be curious to explore when it comes to school/mass shootings.

The perpetrators of those are predominantly young white men.

I still think done Phantom fandom should step in and do something, but maybe the white male Community should Step Up as well

[Rooish]

Something changed. When you isolate the variables, you notice the patterns: Part-Time parents, kids raised by The Internet, without decency, manners, or empathy - and forget about "Discipline", that's a dirty word - combined with a pharmaceutical industry that targets children as "consumers" and convinces people that every kid who can't sit still has a "disorder", that can only be treated by pumping their still-developing brains full of chemicals it's going to take decades to fully gauge the side effects of.

When all of those things run parallel, I *really* question why "Guns" is all anyone can see as a reason why kids are snapping to such extreme degrees. There's SO much more that's wrong, that can actually BE fixed, if people had the right priorities.


I think it's because guns, especially the high callibre ones, are the variable involved in mass murders in America, and rarely anywhere else? The rest of the world has these social problems too but fewer mass murders of these types. Not sure why people think it wouldn't help matters to ban certain guns that no one needs, or make guns very hard to keep overall. Guns are meant to kill and they're not the sort of thing that needs to be kept around a house to get in the wrong hands. How often do they ever work for their apparent purpose, e.g. self defense from some burglar or rapist? Like never?

[PApagreg]

And a lot of THAT had a ton to do with Guliani's crackdown on gang violence and street crime, along with a parallel increase in Stop-And-Frisk, which is both a highly controversial but highly effective deterrent. Controversial because it disproportionately targets minorities, but effective because A. A huge number of people who were frisked in NYC for "being shady" turned out to be carrying - often ILLEGALLY carrying - regardless of why they were stopped, and furthermore often turned out to be violent career criminals on top of that, and B. People who would be highly likely to get frisked under those circumstances - i.e., gang members and drug dealers - either made it a point to not carry or simply did "business" elsewhere, and in either case they and their guns would no longer become a NYC-related statistic.



Actually Stop and Frisk has been shown to be not really effective when it comes to lowing crime in fact violent crime dropped when they cease stop and frisk. //www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/12/03/new-york-has-essentially-eliminated-stop-and-frisk-and-crime-is-still-down/?utm_term=.9225166c2881

[IndigoErth]

So supposedly one of the first people he killed was a girl he'd pursued for four months and wasn't interested in dating him. Much like that other recent incident.

Why isn't this being addressed more.

Had CNN on this morning and forget what anchor it was but he TRIED to bring up this topic to address it, but of course one of the guests on the show (a women no less) said nothing of it and jumped right back to talking about congress. Come on! Yes, guns need to be discussed, but there is this other aspect that is far too common in many of these incidences.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

You mean entitlement? Or "nice guy" syndrome? Or lack of being able to accept disappointment/rejection? Yeah, that needs to be addressed with these creeps.

[plastroncafe]

That would be very nice, yes.
A lot of the people who do this kind of thing have a history of domestic violence.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, all of the above.

Egos as weak as wet toilet paper, entitlement, no sense of responsibility for one's own feelings or actions, taking it out on a woman... That's the kind of crap that goes on in parts of the Middle East that as a culture we're really so convinced that we're better and more civil than, and yet there's a lot of similarities.

[Leo656]

The main two things I keep hearing about this one are, he was practically stalking some girl for weeks and she finally embarrassed him in class to make him stop, and also, that the football players and coaches picked on him all the time.

So again... why are these kids nowadays so f*cking brittle that some of the most common and benign disappointments life will ever throw their way put them right into a "Kill Everyone" mindset? Yeah, that's rational. :roll: It's almost like they have no idea how to cope with things not going their way.

This is what happens when you lie to kids and tell them every feeling they ever have is "valid" and they'll get everything they ever want as long as they "just keep trying" (which in their minds will read, "Stalk and harass a girl until she gives in," for example).

Maybe we ought'a start toughening 'em up way earlier in life by telling them the truth: MOST things in life aren't going to go your way, you CAN'T get everything you want in life, MOST things are beyond your control, MOST of your dreams won't come true, MOST people aren't going to like you, NO, they don't need a reason, NO, you won't change their minds, and YES, you're going to be judged more for your looks, money, and social status than anything you ever do as a human being. If being a "Good Person" or making a "Contribution to Society" meant anything at all, doctors would make more money than football players, but they don't and never will. ALL LIFE is about "Injustice", disappointment, and how you react to it defines who you are as a person. The measure of a human being is not how they act in victory, but in defeat. And so on.

All of that was made perfectly clear to me before like, Age 5. Yes, I grew up cynical, bitter, and kinda mean, BUT I also became so familiar with disappointment that I've come to expect it, and thus am far better emotionally-prepared to react to it. It's almost better to just expect things to go wrong, and be pleasantly surprised when they go right, than to expect everything to go your way and be completely unprepared to handle it when it doesn't.

I mean, you don't have to be mean about it, just be honest with kids. Maybe if they grow up NOT expecting to get everything they want and ask for, they won't start shooting people when they don't get it. Seems like a way to go. It certainly hasn't been tried in a long time.

[Utrommaniac]

I think there's also the issue of not having a lot of emotional maturity - or empathy - for that matter. This brat happened to have the terrible combination of not only having no strength for not getting what he wanted, but also no ability to understand the way his victim was feeling. No understanding that she was starting to be afraid of him.

It's not just that he was brittle - and he absolutely is. There's also the factor that he can't put himself in his victim's shoes or muscle up the will to think "Oh sh*t, I am making this girl terrified of me, I should back off". That is what makes a good person. Though, a "good person" wouldn't be a stalker to begin with.

He's selfish and he's insensitive. The deadliest combination there is.

[Papenbrook]

Although entitlement and sexism are important factors that should be heavily considered, I think racism somehow also played a role.

Racism still exists today, and it would be absolutely ignorant to deny that fact.

[PApagreg]

The main two things I keep hearing about this one are, he was practically stalking some girl for weeks and she finally embarrassed him in class to make him stop, and also, that the football players and coaches picked on him all the time.

So again... why are these kids nowadays so f*cking brittle that some of the most common and benign disappointments life will ever throw their way put them right into a "Kill Everyone" mindset? Yeah, that's rational. :roll: It's almost like they have no idea how to cope with things not going their way.

This is what happens when you lie to kids and tell them every feeling they ever have is "valid" and they'll get everything they ever want as long as they "just keep trying" (which in their minds will read, "Stalk and harass a girl until she gives in," for example).

Maybe we ought'a start toughening 'em up way earlier in life by telling them the truth: MOST things in life aren't going to go your way, you CAN'T get everything you want in life, MOST things are beyond your control, MOST of your dreams won't come true, MOST people aren't going to like you, NO, they don't need a reason, NO, you won't change
Oh yeah because this is the only generation where people react to dissapointment in unhealthy ways. I think racism somehow also played a role.

Racism still exists today, and it would be absolutely ignorant to deny that fact.
The **** does racism have to do with this shooting

[TurtleWA]

So I guess a sexist, racist, entitled person with a mental illness committed this crime. Sad. His parents done screwed up big time. I wonder what the point was that set him on this path? I doubt his mom looked into his little baby eyes and could have predicted a future like this.

[Powder]

There has been nothing to come out suggesting the shooter was racist.

[Leo656]

Oh yeah because this is the only generation where people react to dissapointment in unhealthy ways.
The **** does racism have to do with this shooting

Show me the number of school shootings every year between, say, 1960 and 2000. If they're close to the numbers since Columbine, we can talk. They're not, though, so we won't.

And of course mass shootings and other killings don't JUST happen at schools... only MOSTLY. That means it's predominantly a Young Male problem. As in, "Young Males of the current generation can't handle not getting their way, and respond by hurting people." That's a common denominator, if nothing else.

People have always had a hard time coping with disappointment, yeah, but in past generations, "disappointment" meant getting drafted into a war right out of high school and coming home missing a body part. And most of THOSE people still went on to live healthy and productive lives, PTSD and all. Mass shootings ANYWHERE have never been as rampant, even when it was far EASIER for angry people to get guns than it is today.

It's almost like people's values changed since then!

"The girl I liked won't talk to me, and the football coach said I smell. Better get a gun and shoot them all dead!" is a f*cking brand new idea. Less than 20 years old. Disprove it.

Kids nowadays, for some reason, think this kind of response to "disappointment" is appropriate. Or else it's cutting/self-mutilation, or whatever. All of this is relatively new, and it's being taught to them somehow. For hundreds of years, people didn't act this way, and now they do. WHY? That's what I want to know. I have my own theories, and I'm PRETTY sure they're right, but most people don't even seem to care about any of that, they just want to talk about guns, the least-important link in the entire chain.

I don't care about guns. I care about why we're raising a generation of maladjusted pussies who think mass-murder "fixes" people teasing you. That's the Real Problem. Their brains are broken, we need to raise them differently. Or stop having them altogether. I'm fine with that idea as well; we're obviously regressing as a species, in spite of all this technology. Hmmm... could it be that all this technology that isolates and dehumanizes us could ALSO be a factor in the current state of things? Hmmmm....

Yes. It is.

If things are going to improve, people need to focus on what's actually going on and stop trying to change the subject.
------------------------------------
There has been nothing to come out suggesting the shooter was racist.

As for the racist angle, pretty sure this kid was, based on what I read. Evidence being, he apparently often wore SS or Nazi-inspired pins on his clothing and other things like that (although to be fair, he may not have even understood what they meant). But also, Texas. Let's be honest, those people would still call black people "N-Word (First Name)" if they could get away with it.

On the other hand, he apparently shot at people with no racial bias at all, aiming only for people he disliked regardless of race.

So it would seem that the shooter was indeed a racist, BUT, the shooting itself was not particularly racially motivated. That's how it looks, anyway.

It's worth paying attention to, at least, because it means that if he didn't do what he did, he was only a few years away from carrying out a racially-motivated shooting on behalf of some white-supremacist group, anyway. That's almost a certainty, given what we know.

Kid was cracked, and he was going to explode over someone, for some reason, it was only a matter of time. Someone should'a f*cking done something long before now. Where were his parents, teachers, guidance counselors, or... anyone?

Texas governor says, "No warning signs", kids who knew him say differently. Evidence such as what was on the kid's Facebook page supports the latter.

What a mess.

[ProphetofGanja]

Show me the number of school shootings every year between, say, 1960 and 2000. If they're close to the numbers since Columbine, we can talk. They're not, though, so we won't.

And of course mass shootings and other killings don't JUST happen at schools... only MOSTLY. That means it's predominantly a Young Male problem. As in, "Young Males of the current generation can't handle not getting their way, and respond by hurting people." That's a common denominator, if nothing else.

People have always had a hard time coping with disappointment, yeah, but in past generations, "disappointment" meant getting drafted into a war right out of high school and coming home missing a body part. And most of THOSE people still went on to live healthy and productive lives, PTSD and all. Mass shootings ANYWHERE have never been as rampant, even when it was far EASIER for angry people to get guns than it is today.

It's almost like people's values changed since then!

"The girl I liked won't talk to me, and the football coach said I smell. Better get a gun and shoot them all dead!" is a f*cking brand new idea. Less than 20 years old. Disprove it.

Kids nowadays, for some reason, think this kind of response to "disappointment" is appropriate. Or else it's cutting/self-mutilation, or whatever. All of this is relatively new, and it's being taught to them somehow. For hundreds of years, people didn't act this way, and now they do. WHY? That's what I want to know. I have my own theories, and I'm PRETTY sure they're right, but most people don't even seem to care about any of that, they just want to talk about guns, the least-important link in the entire chain.

I don't care about guns. I care about why we're raising a generation of maladjusted pussies who think mass-murder "fixes" people teasing you. That's the Real Problem. Their brains are broken, we need to raise them differently. Or stop having them altogether. I'm fine with that idea as well; we're obviously regressing as a species, in spite of all this technology. Hmmm... could it be that all this technology that isolates and dehumanizes us could ALSO be a factor in the current state of things? Hmmmm....

Yes. It is.

If things are going to improve, people need to focus on what's actually going on and stop trying to change the subject.
------------------------------------


As for the racist angle, pretty sure this kid was, based on what I read. Evidence being, he apparently often wore SS or Nazi-inspired pins on his clothing and other things like that (although to be fair, he may not have even understood what they meant). But also, Texas. Let's be honest, those people would still call black people "N-Word (First Name)" if they could get away with it.

On the other hand, he apparently shot at people with no racial bias at all, aiming only for people he disliked regardless of race.

So it would seem that the shooter was indeed a racist, BUT, the shooting itself was not particularly racially motivated. That's how it looks, anyway.

It's worth paying attention to, at least, because it means that if he didn't do what he did, he was only a few years away from carrying out a racially-motivated shooting on behalf of some white-supremacist group, anyway. That's almost a certainty, given what we know.

Kid was cracked, and he was going to explode over someone, for some reason, it was only a matter of time. Someone should'a f*cking done something long before now. Where were his parents, teachers, guidance counselors, or... anyone?

Texas governor says, "No warning signs", kids who knew him say differently. Evidence such as what was on the kid's Facebook page supports the latter.

What a mess.

Damn, where is the lie tho

[Powder]

As for the racist angle, pretty sure this kid was, based on what I read. Evidence being, he apparently often wore SS or Nazi-inspired pins on his clothing and other things like that

He also wore communist & bisexual pride pins, peace signs, etc. None of it gels. He was just an edgelord using any symbology he could to ruffle feathers.

[PApagreg]

Show me the number of school shootings every year between, say, 1960 and 2000. If they're close to the numbers since Columbine, we can talk. They're not, though, so we won't.

And of course mass shootings and other killings don't JUST happen at schools... only MOSTLY. That means it's predominantly a Young Male problem. As in, "Young Males of the current generation can't handle not getting their way, and respond by hurting people." That's a common denominator, if nothing else.

People have always had a hard time coping with disappointment, yeah, but in past generations, "disappointment" meant getting drafted into a war right out of high school and coming home missing a body part. And most of THOSE people still went on to live healthy and productive lives, PTSD and all. Mass shootings ANYWHERE have never been as rampant, even when it was far EASIER for angry people to get guns than it is today.

It's almost like people's values changed since then!

"The girl I liked won't talk to me, and the football coach said I smell. Better get a gun and shoot them all dead!" is a f*cking brand new idea. Less than 20 years old. Disprove

You know people did other horrible things other than "School Shootings" right, remeber how serial killers were big in the 60s-80s I bet most of them were had some sort of dissapointment, people lashing out towards other people has been a thing since the dawn of humankind and to say kids these days cant handle dissapointment just because there are 2 instances(with a 20 year old time gap so its not like these people are from the same generation) is beyond retarded.Also Columbine was in 1999 so you just listed your example.

[Redeemer]

Yeah and guess what London is still safer than 50 major cities from the USA, New York has one of the strictest gun laws in the country so bad example there also thats only in a 2 month time frame if we looked at it year by year then we see London having less murders than New York City. Also New York hasnt really been notorious for gun violence in years

No its a great example, bc the two cities have the same population almost and one allows guns and the other doesn't. The city with the gun ban has had more murders than the city that allows guns.

Its common sense.

[PApagreg]

No its a great example, bc the two cities have the same population almost and one allows guns and the other doesn't. The city with the gun ban has had more murders than the city that allows guns.

Its common sense.

No its bad example on your part because New York has strict gun laws so unless you support more strcter gun laws I doubt you want to use New York as an example. Also again its just a 2 month period and if you look at it year by year London tends to have less murders than New York so lets wait until 2018 ends before we start comparing cities

[Andrew NDB]

But also, Texas. Let's be honest, those people would still call black people "N-Word (First Name)" if they could get away with it.

Well, that's not fair. I am friends with a lot of Texans who would never do that. Is there a large population of Texas that would? Sure. Same as if you were to go to Eastern Washington.

[Redeemer]

No its bad example on your part because New York has strict gun laws so unless you support more strcter gun laws I doubt you want to use New York as an example. Also again its just a 2 month period and if you look at it year by year London tends to have less murders than New York so lets wait until 2018 ends before we start comparing cities

I am not sure how much more clear I make this a metropolis the size of New York that allows citizens to legally own and possess guns has less murders than a city of equal size that has a zero tolerance and complete ban of guns!!!!! I would use a different city, but New York is the best example, bc of the population size is almost as exact as London. It increases the "internal validity" of the argument and sense that has happened across multiple months now that means the statistics are not "Out Liars" or statistical anomalies.

You can keep say it is not, but the facts say other wise...

here is also further proof that the argument that lax gun laws are the reason for higher homicide rates are false

https://bismarcktribune.com/news/national/the-cities-with-the-highest-murder-rates-in-the-us/collection_5a789407-4d43-5403-ad56-7c47880bda8e.html#29

2 of the 3 top cities on this list have some of the toughest gun laws and other cities such as Oakland California, Washington DC and Chicago are also on that list, but despite having the toughest gun laws they have higher homicide rates than cities with lax gun laws like in Alaska or Wyoming

In fact here is how bad Chicago is
https://qz.com/1086403/fbi-crime-statistics-us-murders-were-up-in-2016-and-chicago-had-a-lot-to-do-with-it/

[Leo656]

Well, that's not fair. I am friends with a lot of Texans who would never do that. Is there a large population of Texas that would? Sure. Same as if you were to go to Eastern Washington.

General statements are General. It's still one of the most racist states in the country by far, anecdotal evidence aside.

Powder: You may very well be right.

PApagreg: There was nothing "Beyond Retarded" about anything I've said. If you're not going to offer anything productive, I'm going to disregard anything you say going forward. Nothing you have offered to the thread in any way disproves or counters any of the points I've offered. What point ARE you trying to make, anyway?

I'm not trying to be argumentative with you; I've pointed out the fact that school-based mass shootings have skyrocketed over a period of 20 years or so, and pointed out other factors that also shot up within that same time frame, and am pointing out how they may very likely be connected. You've said... people have always been mean to each other in different ways, I think? What does that have to do with my points, exactly?

We agree that violence in reaction to disappointment is not new. However, aside from that, I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Are you saying school shootings have always been a thing? They haven't. Are you saying teenagers have always reacted to rejection by slaughtering their peers en masse? They haven't. These ARE New Ideas, and I'm interested in finding out What The F*ck Got Us Here. Because otherwise, we ain't fixing it.

Please make your points more clear, and refrain from saying things like "beyond retarded" to factually-provable statements. Thanks.

[Mayhem]

Yes, I have to agree with Leo. Mass shootings as a whole have gone up since the 1950s, steadily and then seemingly exponentially in the last 10-15 years, but up until Columbine really, the concept of shooting in a school was almost unheard of, certainly that's the first time such an incident made the news here in the UK. And now look where we are today... the night club shooting in Florida, the festival shooting from a hotel in Vegas, and several school shootings with multiple casualties, most caused by schoolkids, or people who used to go to the school.

As noted, most of the regulations put on the table to try to resolve or present such actions would not have prevented things here in Texas. Neither would it for Sandy Hook, as the guy took his uncle's weapons. Most mass shootings are carried out with legally held weapons, either the shooter's own, or belonging to someone they know. What needs to happen is for tighter regulations to keep a weapon in the first place (and if you think the laws are strict in some parts of the US, come to Europe and check ours out) and for people to have better weapon storing policies and rules. I know many responsible gun owners have their weapons in hard to access locations, and I applaud them for that, because that needs to happen for everyone imo.

[Leo656]

It's gonna get "better". Just wait.

From 1999:
2Wb-WbOncBg

I know it technically happened already, once. But now that it's on the table and established as an option, there will be copycats, just as there are in school shootings.

Part of the reason mass shootings are "mass" is because of the attention that goes with it - keeping in mind these people are more than willing to settle for the absolute worst kind of attention, so long as attention is being paid to them. Otherwise, if they were that unhappy they'd just kill themselves. Anyways. Best way to get attention? Kill lots of people at once. Best way to kill lots of people at once? Attack when everyone's vulnerable and not expecting it. Best places to do that? Places where "You'd have to be CRAZY to even THINK of doing that!" Like schools. And churches.

Now that it's been established, it's going to happen more often. Geez, remember when it was "just" the postal workers, and everyone was so easily able to laugh it off like it WASN'T horrifying? Wasn't even that long ago.

...You can tell, I just have buckets of faith in humanity. Barrels, even.

[plastroncafe]

I've been seeing the suggestion that rather than naming the shooter, we should be referring to them by a number.
So that way they don't get the glory, and infamy, that come with such an act.

That's what we did with the Marathon bombing guys. I couldn't really tell you their names, but if you say suspect number one or suspect number 2 in Boston, we know exactly who you're talking about.

[PApagreg]

I am not sure how much more clear I make this a metropolis the size of New York that allows citizens to legally own and possess guns has less murders than a city of equal size that has a zero tolerance and complete ban of guns!!!!! I would use a different city, but New York is the best example, bc of the population size is almost as exact as London. It increases the "internal validity" of the argument and sense that has happened across multiple months now that means the statistics are not "Out Liars" or statistical anomalies.

You can keep say it is not, but the facts say other wise...

Okay have you heard of a thing called "nuance" New York isn't just a place where citizens can "legally own and possess guns" there is more to it than that, it also has one of the strictest gun laws in the country sitting at number 4 and seeing how you are against have stricter gun laws its a bad example on your point. Do you want stricter gun laws for this country?

https://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428/0/10-states-with-the-strictest-gun-laws.html

here is also further proof that the argument that lax gun laws are the reason for higher homicide rates are false

https://bismarcktribune.com/news/national/the-cities-with-the-highest-murder-rates-in-the-us/collection_5a789407-4d43-5403-ad56-7c47880bda8e.html#29

2 of the 3 top cities on this list have some of the toughest gun laws and other cities such as Oakland California, Washington DC and Chicago are also on that list, but despite having the toughest gun laws they have higher homicide rates than cities with lax gun laws like in Alaska or Wyoming

In fact here is how bad Chicago is
https://qz.com/1086403/fbi-crime-statistics-us-murders-were-up-in-2016-and-chicago-had-a-lot-to-do-with-it/

Ill give you Wyoming and Chicago but if you look at it state by state you would know that Alaska has a higher murder rate than California also the number 1 city is from a state that has lax gun control laws so again not helping your argument there.

https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

Or else it's cutting/self-mutilation, or whatever. All of this is relatively new, and it's being taught to them somehow. For hundreds of years, people didn't act this way, and now they do.

Self Mutilation isn't a new thing, in fact it can be found far back in Ancient Greece where a Spartan leader was sent to the stocks for "strange behavior" and a serf noticed he was cutting himself.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4697319



PApagreg: There was nothing "Beyond Retarded" about anything I've said. If you're not going to offer anything productive, I'm going to disregard anything you say going forward. Nothing you have offered to the thread in any way disproves or counters any of the points I've offered. What point ARE you trying to make, anyway?

You've said... people have always been mean to each other in different ways, I think? What does that have to do with my points, exactly? Are you saying school shootings have always been a thing? They haven't. Are you saying teenagers have always reacted to rejection by slaughtering their peers en masse?

There has been a total of three teenagers who shot up a school because of some form of rejection so its not like "values have changed" because most people today including teenagers still think school shootings are wrong and can healthy handle rejection and disappointment. Its like me looking at Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy and thinking "wow there must have been something wrong with people in the 70s, they should learn not to hurt people" generalizing today's teenagers and calling them "brittle" just because of what a total of three people did is not only stupid but very insulting hence why I said "it is beyond retarded"

[Andrew NDB]

Yes, I have to agree with Leo. Mass shootings as a whole have gone up since the 1950s, steadily and then seemingly exponentially in the last 10-15 years, but up until Columbine really, the concept of shooting in a school was almost unheard of

Yep. For decades and decades, too, we even had fully-automatic weapons completely legal and far, far less gun control laws and yet... no school shootings (there even used to be things like "Gun Club" in school, and students could openly bring guns to class). Not one. Yet now, in 2018, where automatic weapons have been illegal for a couple of decades now and there is 1,000% more gun control laws in the same amount of time... now the problem and solution to recent school shootings must be guns and their removal/further gun legislature?

Bullsh**.

[PApagreg]

Yep. For decades and decades, too, we even had fully-automatic weapons completely legal and far, far less gun control laws and yet... no school shootings (there even used to be things like "Gun Club" in school, and students could openly bring guns to class). Not one. Yet now, in 2018, where automatic weapons have been illegal for a couple of decades now and there is 1,000% more gun control laws in the same amount of time... now the problem and solution to recent school shootings must be guns and their removal/further gun legislature?

Bullsh**.

You're right Andrew its not like other developed countries with stricter gun laws like Japan, Britain, France, Germany or etc have little to no school shooting. Hell even Canada which does have school shootings from time to time doesn't get as bad as the United States

[Leo656]

Snip


Honest question: How old are you?

You defend this generation as if you're a part of it. Are you? If so, it would explain your vehement defense of the clearly indefensible.

They are brittle. They shoot at people because someone teased them. They skip school to stomp around and yell at people when they don't get their way. They demand that scholars and academics be banned or disinvited from speaking at colleges if their opinion doesn't fit the accepted Liberal/Progressive Narrative. And if those people are allowed to speak, they march around and shout over them so they're technically NOT being allowed to speak anyway. They demand that everyone has to respect their "free speech" and opinions, but they don't have to respect anyone else's. They commit suicide because someone made fun of them on Facebook. They put every minute of their lives on social media in a transparently desperate bid for attention. They say that taking away someone's legally-owned property is okay, as long as that property is a gun, but they will literally break down in tears if someone gives them a transparent backpack in a laughable attempt at "safety". They eat f*cking laundry detergent.

Enough with this sh*t. They ARE brittle. And ignorant. And entitled. You don't see it? Then go the f*ck outside.

Unless you yourself are under-21. In which case, you have a lot to learn.

If you honestly don't think this generation is dumber than the last, then why wasn't the last generation snorting f*cking condoms?

These kids are cracked, collectively. Maybe not every single one of them, no. But collectively, they're a batch of eggs that should've been sat on longer. Ask anyone who runs a business, who's in the unenviable position of having to interview one of these little nitwits for a job. They all want $15-20 and hour and full benefits before they can legally drink, and they pitch a f*cking fit when you tell them life doesn't work that way.

I'm sure a few of them will go on to accomplish great things; that's just math. But you'd have to ignore a LOT to say, with a straight face, "There's nothing wrong with the current generation of young people." Yes, yes there is. If you don't see it, it's probably because you're simply too young to see it. Or you're just bad at recognizing behavioral patterns. I don't know.

I know it's DEFINITELY been more than just three people. The Las Vegas thing was a weird outlier, but in most mass shootings in high schools, colleges, movie theaters, and that church incident, from Columbine until today, the shooter was almost ALWAYS someone who was young, had been "picked on", who had a history of mental illness and long-term medication, and their family life wasn't stable. So I don't know where you get "three people" from, or how you don't see clearly-established patterns in the "Why" of it all.

It's almost like when people get so hung up on guns, they forget everything else. That "everything else" is WHY they pick up a gun in the first place, so it's actually way, way more important in the big picture. Seriously.

[Redeemer]

Okay have you heard of a thing called "nuance" New York isn't just a place where citizens can "legally own and possess guns" there is more to it than that, it also has one of the strictest gun laws in the country sitting at number 4 and seeing how you are against have stricter gun laws its a bad example on your point. Do you want stricter gun laws for this country?


I don't understand you post "Nuance" by definition is a subtle shade/deviation, not the drastically difference as a city or laws you are claiming New York to be. I don't think you are using the word correctly

[plastroncafe]

I don't think exercising one's First Amendment rights, nor demanding a living wage to be a sign of generational fragility.

I mean, let's not forget the grown-ass men in polo shirts and tiki torches protesting the removal of participation trophy monuments while chanting, You Will Not Replace Us.

People sending death threats to creators because they don't like their work, or to critics because the said mean things about a videogame.

Or mowing people down with their car in Canada because they're not having the sex they believe they're owed.

The boys in high school now grew up under Reddit and GamerDorf. If anything they're following the lead of the adults who came before them.

[Candy Kappa]

Using snorting condoms as one of the measurements as "that generation is broken y'all" might not be the best idea, cause I remember vividly that being a thing among teens as a child and when I was a teen myself. And each generation have several things they did that was dumb, it's just more oscure for the willfully ignorant when it's not so readily available on the internet compared to the previous 2-3 gens.

My dad's gen was all over that nunchaku Bruce Lee trend, and Rambo knives was the ****. There's a reason why nunchaku are illegal in several countries.

[Utrommaniac]

Yeah, people have been doing stupid (http://www.badfads.com/events/goldfish-swallowing/) and dangerous (http://www.mortaljourney.com/2011/01/1950-trends/phone-booth-stuffing) trends (http://www.mortaljourney.com/2011/01/1950-trends/volkswagen-car-stuffing) for (http://www.badfads.com/events/glass-eating/) a while (http://www.badfads.com/events/flagpole-sitting/) now.



Young people are always gonna dumb no matter the decade, but the modern age has created some new edges to it because of social media.

(Ha, TMNT is on the BadFads site under the "collectibles" category)

[plastroncafe]

It's almost like people forgot exactly how popular jackass was for Gen xers.

[BartAllen]

Well, that's not fair. I am friends with a lot of Texans who would never do that. Is there a large population of Texas that would? Sure. Same as if you were to go to Eastern Washington.

I've lived in a number of places, including Texas. I heard the N-bomb dropped way more in Westminster Maryland than I ever did when I lived in Dallas, or Austin.

People keep thinking this is a gun control debate, it isn't. This entire situation could've been resolved with civility. This kid asked a girl out, and instead of just rejecting him (who hasn't been there), she apparently made fun of him over an extended period of time because of his advances. Hell, Emma Gonzales admitted that she bullied Nick Cruz. The problem with these shootings is that kids are bullied and don't have a healthy outlet to deal with that, so they end up doing the unthinkable. There are too many assholes out there that think they have a right to **** on other people for whatever reason. They don't, and until people figure out that you have to be civil (especially kids) this **** will continue. You could make every gun illegal and this would still happen.

Before anyone jumps on me: No, I'm in now way condoning these school shootings. They're horrible events that should never happen, but we REALLY need to aim a microscope at why they keep happening. It's not the video games, it's not the violent music, it's the little turds who are self-absorbed and think they have a right to make fun of others.

This kid in texas had bombs, so no amount of gun bans would have done anything in this situation. He was determined to hurt people.

You're right Andrew its not like other developed countries with stricter gun laws like Japan, Britain, France, Germany or etc have little to no school shooting. Hell even Canada which does have school shootings from time to time doesn't get as bad as the United States

There are a ton of reasons those countries don't have the gun problem we do in the US. I could name a few, but I'll stick with the reasons Australia and Japan don't have them. One, they're islands; Two, Australia does still have gun violence. Oh, and London has recently had a sharp upturn in gun violence, but I won't go into the reason why that is happening because it doesn't fit within the scope of this conversation.

Japan, in particular, is a really bad example to use as a means of saying that we shouldn't have guns. There are so many reasons they're a unique situation when it comes to discussing guns and violence.

[Leo656]

I don't think exercising one's First Amendment rights, nor demanding a living wage to be a sign of generational fragility.


On Day One. With no life or "real" work experience. They deserve the same as someone who's put time in every day for ten or more years. "Because they want it and therefore deserve it."

No, that's not how any of this works. Nor should it ever.

I've been at my current job for nearly ten years. My boss is super-strict about hiring people, as this business is highly competitive. Most kids under 25 who call for work, the first question they ask is "What can you pay me?" He doesn't call them back and throws their resumes in the trash. Because before they even talk about what experience or credentials they have, or what they can provide to our company, so we can continue operating and marketing ourselves as a high-level, Gold-standard operation, all they want to talk about, right from the start, is "What can YOU do for ME?" Right out of school, no experience in the field, but someone told them they CAN make $50,000 a year or so, thus, they feel that they deserve all that simply by showing up. And they're aghast when someone tells them to hit the bricks and try Dairy Queen instead.

It's not at all the same as the topic, BUT, it is an example of the entitlement that permeates the current crop. It's not THAT different from, "This girl didn't like me, I'm gonna shoot her." Obviously, it IS dramatically different in one sense; in another, broader sense, it's still, "I want something. The fact that I want it, means I deserve it. If I don't get it, it's someone else's fault, and they're gonna be sorry."

During my time in the wrestling business (my "other job"), one thing that was reinforced on the daily, over and over again, is "This life doesn't owe you sh*t, and this business definitely doesn't owe you sh*t. You put work in, you elevate if you deserve it. If you don't deserve it, you don't get booked. If your attitude sucks, you won't get booked. If you act like you deserve a 'spot' just for walking in the door, you don't get booked again EVER. Working, and being paid, is a privilege, NOT a right."

And that's the truth! It's always been the truth! But now, because it's "hard" and "unfair", people demand everything handed to them immediately upon graduating. Someone told them they can get a Free Ride at life. Like I said in an earlier post, when you lie to kids like that, and tell them someone's always gonna give them everything they want, you're gonna get a group of entitled, self-absorbed "kids" instead of grown-ups.

It would be nice if everyone everywhere had enough cash in their pockets to get by, yeah. I've been poor on-and-off more often than most people, it sucks. But that's life. You swim harder to reach the shore, or you drown. You don't go around demanding life preservers just because you were born.

Now, have I met and worked with kids (meaning under-25) who were hard-working go-getters, eager to put in the work and patiently climb the ladder? Absolutely! But even they'll tell you, they are the exception and not the rule.

Perhaps other people have had different experience working with and dealing with the younger crowd. But this is MY experience, and it's been consistent.
--------------------

So far, I like this BartAllen guy. That's odd, because I generally hate everyone. Just something about the logic, I'unno. He's pretty quick.

..."Fastest Man Alive"...? Hmmm... I'unno. But so far, so good.

[Candy Kappa]

the first question they ask is "What can you pay me?"

Doesn't seem unreasonable to ask what the pay is, especially if it's in a place/country/state that don't have proper livable minimum wage laws. If the job don't pay the bills it ain't worth having.

[Leo656]

I agree, but there's standard "Job Application Etiquette" to consider. You're at an audition. You're selling yourself. If the first words out of your mouth are, "So what can YOU do for me?" it comes across as entirely self-serving.

Again, in case I haven't made it clear in the past, I have worked hand-in-hand with owner/operator-level management at almost every job I ever had. I repeat what THEY say they look for and grade on when screening applicants (and why they reject people).

Moving/Warehouse business: "These kids want everything for nothing."
Wrestling business: "These kids wants everything for nothing."
Fitness Industry: "These kids want everything for nothing."

ABSOLUTELY, look for the money you feel you deserve, but DON'T walk in the door making unreasonable requests right out of the gate, or expecting to get the dollar figure you had your heart set on if you have no experience in the field (or if you got fired from your last job). Don't even TALK about money until the person screening you brings it up; that ball is in their court, not yours.

You're one of many, MANY people trying to get a spot when there are more people than spots. That gives the applicant ZERO leverage; thus, you simply DON'T walk in the door talking about money before you've explained to them why they need you, or how you can benefit them. They're running a business, not a charity.

Not for nothing, but over the years here I've noticed that a lot of people have had hard times getting and sustaining work. I don't know anyone on this forum well enough to say so for certain, but it *could* have to do with what I've gone over above.

Then again, I've only been working steady since I was 17, quickly moved up the ladder at every job I've had since I was 18, and haven't kept a job for less than 8 years since then. Maybe I don't know? Or maybe, just maybe, I do.

Everyone needs money. But don't overshoot when you're not established. That gets you nowhere. It's become more and more common as kids get more and more entitled. That's all I'm saying.

[Andrew NDB]

Shootings have been... going down?

https://mises.org/wire/there-are-fewer-school-shootings-now-during-1990s

[sdp]

It's almost like people forgot exactly how popular jackass was for Gen xers.

Jackass was great, I'm pretty sure it's more of a millenial thing though even if the Jackass guys were likely Gen Xers.

[Prowler]

Never cared much for Jackass tbh. It just wasn't my thing, I guess.

But I still liked some other "stupid" things such as Kenny vs. Spenny and the American Pie movies.

[Redeemer]

I don't think exercising one's First Amendment rights, nor demanding a living wage to be a sign of generational fragility.

I mean, let's not forget the grown-ass men in polo shirts and tiki torches protesting the removal of participation trophy monuments while chanting, You Will Not Replace Us.

People sending death threats to creators because they don't like their work, or to critics because the said mean things about a videogame.

Or mowing people down with their car in Canada because they're not having the sex they believe they're owed.

The boys in high school now grew up under Reddit and GamerDorf. If anything they're following the lead of the adults who came before them.

I not quoting to debate/ or counter argue, but I think its hilarious how many conversations/ topics we have going for this one very specific thread we have going :lol::lol:

[plastroncafe]

Well this is an interesting turn of events.
It would seem a chunk of the people hurt during this attack, could have been hit while caught in the crossfire between good guys with guns and the shooter.

Some Santa Fe shooting victims may have been caught in the crossfire (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/some-santa-fe-shooting-victims-may-have-been-caught-crossfire-n876171?cid=sm_npd_nn_tw_ma) (NBC news)

It's stuff like this that makes me think gun owners should be required to have insurance. Because those people who may have been hit but were not killed or going to have medical bills that need paying. And a good guys bullet will do just as much damage as a bad guys.

[Andrew NDB]

It's stuff like this that makes me think gun owners should be required to have insurance.

Nope, not at all. It's a right. Mandatory insurance just to be able to exhibit a basic constitutional American right is...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_u_MkL96BJ_c/SZg2vHxHT1I/AAAAAAAAARE/HB-NUg5GJXQ/s320/ludacris.jpg

Such a motion would be sued out of existence as soon as it entered the ballot, and rightly so. And "good guys with guns hitting innocents" accounts for about 0.000005% of anything (though it's a very, very popular, "W-w-w-well what if??!!" from the gun-fearing left), so if anything, that could be covered federally or within the state. Definitely the accidental victim should not be on their own in the wind to cover costs, though, no. Though certainly if I was clustered in the corner of a gymnasium with a crazed shooter running roughshod with untold number of clips... even a super slim 5% chance of 1 person with the gumption of mustering some kind of defense with a firearm would seem a lot more comforting vs. the 100% chance of what would unfold if 0 people did or could do absolutely nothing about it. Maybe I get clipped in the shoulder? Maybe even in the head? Maybe that saves 10 extra lives, or maybe 5, or maybe 0. But there's that against the absolute certainty that shooter gets to kill whoever it wants to kill for as long as it takes for SWAT to break in, which will be about the same duration as an episode of "Friends."

Jackass was great, I'm pretty sure it's more of a millenial thing though even if the Jackass guys were likely Gen Xers.

Jackass was a "Generation Everybody" under the age of 45 when it came out all the way to the last movie. Though even my dad got a kick out of it on a guilty pleasure level, and he was 70.

[Leo656]

BULL. SH*T.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-texas-school-shooting-suspect-165015959.html

"Only In America" can someone put bullets in 23 people, and never have to face a single one, on account of he didn't have another Birthday first.

Congratulations, Texas. You get to spend millions of dollars feeding and housing an unrepentant psychopath for the next 70 years.

No question of guilt. NONE. He killed ten people because a girl thought he was icky. And he's not even going to be punished. And if you think "life imprisonment" is a punishment, either study up on what really goes on inside American prisons, or find a "lifer" and ask them WHY they repeat-offended until they got put away for life. "The Answer May Shock You!"

(Psst. It's because they never have to work or pay bills again, and they get video games, drugs, and cable TV. Pass it on. I've known my share of felons; they're not scared of f*cking prison. At all. "Ain't sh*t", they say.)

This really. Really. Pisses me off. It always does. I knew there was a possibility, but given the circumstances I figured Texas of all places would have its sh*t together enough to do the right thing and execute this gelding f*ck.

He's NOT "a child", it was premeditated weeks in advance (he apparently TOLD the girl weeks ago he was going to kill her, new reports are saying), and there's ZERO question of guilt. If you don't make an example of this guy, then NOBODY who'd even consider pulling a copycat shooting has anything to fear, ever again. They may as well have at it. Kill as many people as you want; you get to be on CNN and the government wipes your ass forever until you die. You've already failed out of life, life in prison means NOTHING to these people, it's a Permanent Vacation. They're not really scared of death all that much, either, but at least you can set some kind of an example for those who are.

Capital murder? Capital Punishment. End of story. F*ck this kid and anyone who wants to see him laugh about this when they're still interviewing him in 20 years.

About 10 years ago, I read about an incident in Connecticut that shook me to the core. Two men - one of them a father to a young daughter - followed a family home from the grocery store, then later that night returned to the house, bashed the father's head in with a baseball bat as he slept on the porch swing, tied the mother and her daughters (one of them around 10 years old, maybe younger) to their beds, took turns violently raping all of them, then BURNED THEM ALL ALIVE in their beds. Texts between the two men beforehand showed them joking about how they "couldn't wait" to do the job... with one saying he had to hurry up and tuck his own daughter into bed, first... before they could go rape and murder an entire family. "For fun."

They were arrested, tried, and given life in separate prisons. Less than a year later, one of them wrote a letter to the newspapers, thanking them for all the publicity, and laughing about how awesome prison was, and how great it was that he "got away with it" and will be living a comfy-cozy prison life forever. I wanted to f*cking puke. I still do.

People say "Those who support capital punishment have no compassion." I say, if that story doesn't make you realize that some people are f*cking reptiles, undeserving of any sympathy whatsoever, and undeserving of drawing even one more day's breath, then YOU don't have a soul.

Some people are Evil. That's an opinion that's gone out of fashion, but it's true all the same. I won't be convinced otherwise. Sh*t like this is the entire reason we ever had capital punishment as an option in the first place. Now, we don't even use it when the situation is cut-and-dry.

Please... tell me more about how people aren't losing all sense of priority, and it's always been this bad.

Unbelievable.

[Redeemer]

BULL. SH*T.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/why-texas-school-shooting-suspect-165015959.html

"Only In America" can someone put bullets in 23 people, and never have to face a single one, on account of he didn't have another Birthday first.

Congratulations, Texas. You get to spend millions of dollars feeding and housing an unrepentant psychopath for the next 70 years.



I thought I read he could only get 40 years maximum for the crime, unless its 40 years per murder......

[Leo656]

He will be eligible for parole in 40 years.

Fun. By then we'll have sex robots and he won't have to shoot someone for saying No. Good for F*cking This Guy.

[BartAllen]

Shootings have been... going down?

https://mises.org/wire/there-are-fewer-school-shootings-now-during-1990s

Overall shooting is down. Mass shootings have gone up over the past 30 years.
Access to professional help, from my understanding, has stopped a lot of suicide (by gun).

He will be eligible for parole in 40 years.

Fun. By then we'll have sex robots and he won't have to shoot someone for saying No. Good for F*cking This Guy.

I'm in no way condoning his actions, but he was made fun of by that girl and her friends over a period of time. Again, he was attacking a bully. There is a difference. Whether you choose to accept it or not.

We can say it's access to guns or misogyny (a current favorite), but this problem will only be fixed when kids stop harassing/bullying other kids.

[plastroncafe]

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1420475595ra/13230030.gif

This wasn't a crime of passion. If he'd lashed out WHILE being bullied, then maybe I could lend the twat some sympathy, but no. He made a pre-meditated strike on his highschool because a girl dared to tell him no, and when he didn't take the no at face value, she made a spectacle of him.

Would he have stopped if she said no one more time?
If he does this at no, what would he have eventually done to her if she'd said yes?

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them," is all too real in this situation.

[Leo656]

I agree people should, in theory, treat each other better. It's a wonderful concept and Lord knows it's never, ever been tried before. Matter of fact, last time anyone suggested it, I heard he ended up with a bad case of splinters, vertigo, and heat stroke. Luckily, he got better in about three days, or so goes the rumor.

Anyway. Sure. Let's treat each other better. I agree, that's a great idea and it would be a good start.

That said, I have little to no faith in mankind's ability to accomplish this.

Furthermore, as someone who was excessively, relentlessly bullied between Grades K-8, suspended a whole half dozen times for the DOZENS of fistfights I got into on school property during those years, to say NOTHING of the times I told any one of several teachers to "F*ck off" in front of students and faculty, went home and got my ass kicked by my parents half the week, and had no electricity half the goddamn time, but yet, never ONCE thought of picking up a gun - of which there were several in my home - and aiming it at another human being in an attempt to somehow "validate my feelings", here's a little "Survival Skill" I learned.

Ready?

You toughen up. You roll. You duck. You fight back (when you know you can win). You pick your battles wisely. You find inner strength, then temper it. You remind yourself that you're a better human being than the people trying to drag you down. You develop principles and stick to them. You develop integrity. You remind yourself that this stage of your life isn't going to be forever, and one day you'll be able to change your situation. You self-improve. You lead by example. You find a way to love yourself, in spite of what others think, because they don't matter and their words can't hurt you. You surround yourself with like-minded people and support each other. You don't cave in to peer pressure. You don't associate with the dregs and lowlifes of society. You remind yourself that life is about reacting to things, because you can't control them, and that everything - EVERYTHING - in life is about choices, and that you, yourself, can choose to be a hero, a villain, a victim, or a warrior, but YOU define it. Nobody else. They WILL try. But they can't. Life WILL abuse you, people will treat you unfair, but you're the one who decides whether you get back up or lay on the ground, turn the other cheek or pick up a loaded gun.

It's ALL. On. YOU.

You are "God" of your own universe. You don't create the scenario but you do decide the path. Look yourself in the eye, every day, and remind yourself that you're the star of the show. What's the role? Hero or Villain, Warrior or Victim? You're making it happen, Right Now. And if you're not happy with the way you're playing it then do it better.

Focus. Clarity. Inner Strength and Iron Will. You're better than them. Okay? If you don't believe it, then none of it works. But it does work. And if you're NOT better than them then make yourself better than them.

ALL we leave behind is our legacy. Nobody WANTS to be remembered as someone life kicked around until they broke, but too many people resign themselves to that role. Horse sh*t. Don't do it. Life's too short to be miserable, neurotic, and crippled by self-doubt. There's nothing wrong with asking for help along the way - it's really quite necessary - but in the end, ain't nobody gonna make sh*t better for you but You.

There is NO LAW that says you can't look yourself in the mirror every day, and say, "Jesus, this world is lucky to have me in it. I'm doing them a favor just by showing up." And if they don't like it, then f*ck 'em. Who are you doing this for, anyway? They don't go in the box with you when they put you in the ground. A little narcissism and self-interest is healthy, don't believe anyone who says otherwise.

You gotta Fake It 'Til You Make It, sometimes. Most times, probably. But you gotta do it. You gotta remind yourself, every day, that they suck and you rule, and that all the other sh*t's temporary anyway.

And then, one day, you graduate, and it all pays off, because you are never gonna see any of those people again, ever. They're gonna get old, fat, divorced, addicted, arrested, and even stupider than they were in school, because they're Life Losers, and you're gonna look like a Winner because you survived everything and became a better, stronger person for it, while their "glory days" were giving kids wedgies and puking all over the 50 yard line.

Bullying sucks, "mean" people suck, all of that sucks. But here's the thing: If you can't handle being teased, or picked on, or rejected, or god forbid even smacked around, well... you ain't gonna survive Life for very long.

But no matter HOW bad life kicks you around, you are NOT justified in hurting other people over it. You never, ever "earn" that. There is NO amount of "Bullying" that justifies what some of these kids are doing, on account of "Their feelings were hurt" or "They were mistreated." That is the weakest, lamest, most pussified sh*t I have ever heard. But see, they're pussies, so yeah. "I didn't get my way. People picked on me. Now I gotta hurt someone. That'll make me the good guy!" Big, BIG pussy.

You're gonna get sh*t on. You're gonna get bullied. You're gonna feel like God Himself decided to make you his own personal punching bag. I PROMISE, all of this is going to happen to everyone. It's no reason to turn into a victim OR a bully. DEFINITELY not a murderer.

Less bullies? "Be nicer"? Sure. I'll sign that. Ain't happening, though. Self-improvement? Personal responsibility? Those are things we can actually teach, accomplish, and reinforce, even if it's only within ourselves individually.

That's how you Survive.

I did. By high school, all those kids I got in all those fights with were my friends, once we matured and realized all that sh*t was stupid. Those same kids that used to try and beat me up were spotting me on the bench and lining up to sign my yearbook. I was voted for all kinds of stuff in the Senior yearbook. I was in a boys' pageant my Senior Year and was one of the finalists. Upon graduating, I received a special certificate and a $50 grant check for "Overcoming Adversity and Determination To Succeed".

8 years getting sh*t on, plus 4 more being one of the most popular kids in school. I'll take it. Could'a gone another way. I could'a just picked up my Dad's gun when I had a bad day, like some'a these twats. It's not that I haven't been there. It's BECAUSE I've been there that I know they're stupid, and fragile. Nobody forced them into anything; they did it to themselves, because they didn't believe in or see anything better for themselves. They gave up. They quit. You know what happens when you quit? You LOSE.

They CHOSE to be victims, and then they CHOSE to use that idea of "victimhood" to justify robbing innocent people of their lives. It's shameful and disgusting.

I took my shots. By rights, I should not be here. I could've/should've been a statistic. I'm not magical; I simply refuse to buy into that victim sh*t.

Empathy's great. We should all be kinder, I agree. When that happens, and we all get a pet unicorn to go with it, I'll be the first one to celebrate. Because I really, REALLY want a unicorn. Maybe more than all the other stuff.

Until then... Toughen Up. It really AIN'T so f*cking bad. It's that simple.

[BartAllen]

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1420475595ra/13230030.gif

This wasn't a crime of passion. If he'd lashed out WHILE being bullied, then maybe I could lend the twat some sympathy, but no. He made a pre-meditated strike on his highschool because a girl dared to tell him no, and when he didn't take the no at face value, she made a spectacle of him.

Would he have stopped if she said no one more time?
If he does this at no, what would he have eventually done to her if she'd said yes?

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them," is all too real in this situation.

I'm not saying that anything that guy did is forgivable, but what he did was built up out of stress and harrassment.

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1420475595ra/13230030.gif

This wasn't a crime of passion. If he'd lashed out WHILE being bullied, then maybe I could lend the twat some sympathy, but no. He made a pre-meditated strike on his highschool because a girl dared to tell him no, and when he didn't take the no at face value, she made a spectacle of him.

Would he have stopped if she said no one more time?
If he does this at no, what would he have eventually done to her if she'd said yes?

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them," is all too real in this situation.

I agree people should, in theory, treat each other better. It's a wonderful concept and Lord knows it's never, ever been tried before. Matter of fact, last time anyone suggested it, I heard he ended up with a bad case of splinters, vertigo, and heat stroke. Luckily, he got better in about three days, or so goes the rumor.

Anyway. Sure. Let's treat each other better. I agree, that's a great idea and it would be a good start.

That said, I have little to no faith in mankind's ability to accomplish this.

Furthermore, as someone who was excessively, relentlessly bullied between Grades K-8, suspended a whole half dozen times for the DOZENS of fistfights I got into on school property during those years, to say NOTHING of the times I told any one of several teachers to "F*ck off" in front of students and faculty, went home and got my ass kicked by my parents half the week, and had no electricity half the goddamn time, but yet, never ONCE thought of picking up a gun - of which there were several in my home - and aiming it at another human being in an attempt to somehow "validate my feelings", here's a little "Survival Skill" I learned.

Ready?

You toughen up. You roll. You duck. You fight back (when you know you can win). You pick your battles wisely. You find inner strength, then temper it. You remind yourself that you're a better human being than the people trying to drag you down. You develop principles and stick to them. You develop integrity. You remind yourself that this stage of your life isn't going to be forever, and one day you'll be able to change your situation. You self-improve. You lead by example. You find a way to love yourself, in spite of what others think, because they don't matter and their words can't hurt you. You surround yourself with like-minded people and support each other. You don't cave in to peer pressure. You don't associate with the dregs and lowlifes of society. You remind yourself that life is about reacting to things, because you can't control them, and that everything - EVERYTHING - in life is about choices, and that you, yourself, can choose to be a hero, a villain, a victim, or a warrior, but YOU define it. Nobody else. They WILL try. But they can't. Life WILL abuse you, people will treat you unfair, but you're the one who decides whether you get back up or lay on the ground, turn the other cheek or pick up a loaded gun.

It's ALL. On. YOU.

You are "God" of your own universe. You don't create the scenario but you do decide the path. Look yourself in the eye, every day, and remind yourself that you're the star of the show. What's the role? Hero or Villain, Warrior or Victim? You're making it happen, Right Now. And if you're not happy with the way you're playing it then do it better.

Focus. Clarity. Inner Strength and Iron Will. You're better than them. Okay? If you don't believe it, then none of it works. But it does work. And if you're NOT better than them then make yourself better than them.

ALL we leave behind is our legacy. Nobody WANTS to be remembered as someone life kicked around until they broke, but too many people resign themselves to that role. Horse sh*t. Don't do it. Life's too short to be miserable, neurotic, and crippled by self-doubt. There's nothing wrong with asking for help along the way - it's really quite necessary - but in the end, ain't nobody gonna make sh*t better for you but You.

There is NO LAW that says you can't look yourself in the mirror every day, and say, "Jesus, this world is lucky to have me in it. I'm doing them a favor just by showing up." And if they don't like it, then f*ck 'em. Who are you doing this for, anyway? They don't go in the box with you when they put you in the ground. A little narcissism and self-interest is healthy, don't believe anyone who says otherwise.

You gotta Fake It 'Til You Make It, sometimes. Most times, probably. But you gotta do it. You gotta remind yourself, every day, that they suck and you rule, and that all the other sh*t's temporary anyway.

And then, one day, you graduate, and it all pays off, because you are never gonna see any of those people again, ever. They're gonna get old, fat, divorced, addicted, arrested, and even stupider than they were in school, because they're Life Losers, and you're gonna look like a Winner because you survived everything and became a better, stronger person for it, while their "glory days" were giving kids wedgies and puking all over the 50 yard line.

Bullying sucks, "mean" people suck, all of that sucks. But here's the thing: If you can't handle being teased, or picked on, or rejected, or god forbid even smacked around, well... you ain't gonna survive Life for very long.

But no matter HOW bad life kicks you around, you are NOT justified in hurting other people over it. You never, ever "earn" that. There is NO amount of "Bullying" that justifies what some of these kids are doing, on account of "Their feelings were hurt" or "They were mistreated." That is the weakest, lamest, most pussified sh*t I have ever heard. But see, they're pussies, so yeah. "I didn't get my way. People picked on me. Now I gotta hurt someone. That'll make me the good guy!" Big, BIG pussy.

You're gonna get sh*t on. You're gonna get bullied. You're gonna feel like God Himself decided to make you his own personal punching bag. I PROMISE, all of this is going to happen to everyone. It's no reason to turn into a victim OR a bully. DEFINITELY not a murderer.

Less bullies? "Be nicer"? Sure. I'll sign that. Ain't happening, though. Self-improvement? Personal responsibility? Those are things we can actually teach, accomplish, and reinforce, even if it's only within ourselves individually.

That's how you Survive.

I did. By high school, all those kids I got in all those fights with were my friends, once we matured and realized all that sh*t was stupid. Those same kids that used to try and beat me up were spotting me on the bench and lining up to sign my yearbook. I was voted for all kinds of stuff in the Senior yearbook. I was in a boys' pageant my Senior Year and was one of the finalists. Upon graduating, I received a special certificate and a $50 grant check for "Overcoming Adversity and Determination To Succeed".

8 years getting sh*t on, plus 4 more being one of the most popular kids in school. I'll take it. Could'a gone another way. I could'a just picked up my Dad's gun when I had a bad day, like some'a these twats. It's not that I haven't been there. It's BECAUSE I've been there that I know they're stupid, and fragile. Nobody forced them into anything; they did it to themselves, because they didn't believe in or see anything better for themselves. They gave up. They quit. You know what happens when you quit? You LOSE.

They CHOSE to be victims, and then they CHOSE to use that idea of "victimhood" to justify robbing innocent people of their lives. It's shameful and disgusting.

I took my shots. By rights, I should not be here. I could've/should've been a statistic. I'm not magical; I simply refuse to buy into that victim sh*t.

Empathy's great. We should all be kinder, I agree. When that happens, and we all get a pet unicorn to go with it, I'll be the first one to celebrate. Because I really, REALLY want a unicorn. Maybe more than all the other stuff.

Until then... Toughen Up. It really AIN'T so f*cking bad. It's that simple.

I mean, yes, I tend to agree with the sentiment of toughing up. I know way to many people that are mentally weak and lash out like children when someone criticizes them. That said, I don't know a single person that's going to react well to persistent emotional abuse. This kid was a victim of persistent emotional abuse. I'm not saying that as a way to forgive his actions but it does show that maybe people need to think before they bully someone. That guy might just end up killing you. Ultimately, I think you're right, though. I've dealt with bullies and weirdos myself, I never thought of picking up a gun. I've also been rejected A LOT, lol. I never once thought of killing a woman that rejected me.

[Andrew NDB]

By then we'll have sex robots

We have that now.

orBH_Qnw3eY

Harmony never says no. Unless you want her to and that's your thing.

[TurtleWA]

but this problem will only be fixed when kids stop harassing/bullying other kids.

Yeah bullying needs to stop but I’m very skeptical that bully free schools would stop major acts of violence. So many other reasons a disturbed individual could use to justify a shooting. Teacher gave them a low score on a test, got picked last in dodgeball etc.

https://images.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1420475595ra/13230030.gif

This wasn't a crime of passion. If he'd lashed out WHILE being bullied, then maybe I could lend the twat some sympathy, but no. He made a pre-meditated strike on his highschool because a girl dared to tell him no, and when he didn't take the no at face value, she made a spectacle of him.

Would he have stopped if she said no one more time?
If he does this at no, what would he have eventually done to her if she'd said yes?

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them," is all too real in this situation.

This boys butter done slipped off his top long ago. I don’t think we should send the message to people that it is their fault for saying no or laughing.

[IndigoErth]

There's proof he was bullied? Aside from what I'm seeing online of his dad saying that's what he believes?

Though even if not true I can't fault a no doubt distraught parent for desperately trying to explain how this even happened and how his child would commit something so horrendous. But I hope he's giving serious thought to his OWN role with regards to the safe keeping of his own weapons... Not to mention missing or ignoring possible red flags.

Even if he was bullied long term, why are people in the lives of kids like this dropping the ball on teaching them how to respond to such situations? Not to mention that you don't murder your crush when it isn't mutual. No one is exempt from heartbreak or has the authority to "punish" someone for "making" you feel it. :tmad:

Do kids like this have the same parents who will argue with a teacher over a bad grade or disciplinary issue instead of talking to their own child about it? Bad things are always someone else's fault?

It sounds like he was already harassing that girl himself... If someone has to embarrass you in front of a room, probably as a last resort, to try to tell you loud and clear to back the hell off then it is a problem that has already gone on way too long.



You toughen up. You roll. You duck. You fight back (when you know you can win). You pick your battles wisely. You find inner strength, then temper it. You remind yourself that you're a better human being than the people trying to drag you down. You develop principles and stick to them. You develop integrity. You remind yourself that this stage of your life isn't going to be forever, and one day you'll be able to change your situation. You self-improve. You lead by example. You find a way to love yourself, in spite of what others think, because they don't matter and their words can't hurt you. You surround yourself with like-minded people and support each other. You don't cave in to peer pressure. You don't associate with the dregs and lowlifes of society. You remind yourself that life is about reacting to things, because you can't control them, and that everything - EVERYTHING - in life is about choices, and that you, yourself, can choose to be a hero, a villain, a victim, or a warrior, but YOU define it. Nobody else. They WILL try. But they can't. Life WILL abuse you, people will treat you unfair, but you're the one who decides whether you get back up or lay on the ground, turn the other cheek or pick up a loaded gun.

https://i.imgur.com/87rf0qu.png

[Prowler]

We have that now.

orBH_Qnw3eY

Harmony never says no. Unless you want her to and that's your thing.

"video not available in your country"

...well perhaps it's for the best.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah...it's just a mildly animatronic head stuck on one of those cold, lifeless silicone "real doll"-type bodies. They really need Google's help on getting that IA speech sounding better. (Granted this isn't IA.)

[Prowler]

Yeah...it's just a mildly animatronic head stuck on one of those cold, lifeless silicone "real doll"-type bodies. They really need Google's help on getting that IA speech sounding better. (Granted this isn't IA.)

I can see the thumbnail. I doubt a doll would be good enough to satisfy most people but who knows.

[BartAllen]

I do think there was an interesting question raised in the thread. Do parents not mentally prepare their kids anymore for school? I have an overweight cousin that we all call chubbs, and when he was in school they made fun of his weight, but he never got bothered by it. I think it was due to the fact that we called him chubbs from almost the word go. I wonder if parents today just treat their kids like they're... well, precious little gems. I really do think that parents owe it to tell their kids they're goofy looking, and to bust their balls just a bit so that when they hear it from other people they're not as phased by it.

That does sound horrible, I know.

[Sumac]

I do think there was an interesting question raised in the thread. Do parents not mentally prepare their kids anymore for school? I have an overweight cousin that we all call chubbs, and when he was in school they made fun of his weight, but he never got bothered by it. I think it was due to the fact that we called him chubbs from almost the word go. I wonder if parents today just treat their kids like they're... well, precious little gems. I really do think that parents owe it to tell their kids they're goofy looking, and to bust their balls just a bit so that when they hear it from other people they're not as phased by it.

That does sound horrible, I know.
Not it is not. It's completely rational and logical thing to do.

Parents should treat their children with respect, but it doesn't mean they should rise spoiled snowflakes who take even the tiniest insult or joke as a slight of epic proportions. Parents need to teach their kids that some people might hate them, that some people might reject them or say "no".

This culture of spoiled brats does nothing good to kids themselves, because, they end up completely unprepared to the real life outside of their immediate bubble of relatives and friends. And then they break down and become violent crazies or ideological zealots.

[plastroncafe]

Yeah, I'd be willing to bet that your cousin isn't as cool with it as they say they are, and are just dealing with it.

Though maybe they have an innate set of coping mechanisms to deal, or maybe there are other aspects of their immediate family that have helped to develop those coping mechanisms.
Good for them regardless.

But just as everyone in the world will never run a 3 minute mile, everyone in the world doesn't have the same allotment of ability to cope.
Which is why it's important to listen to people when they tell you to stop. To not just develop, but respect the boundaries of other people.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah...it's just a mildly animatronic head stuck on one of those cold, lifeless silicone "real doll"-type bodies.

No, not "cold." They heat up and get warm.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Insult your own children? Be the first to pop their bullying cherry?

Did I read that right?

[plastroncafe]

It's a nice little slippery slope we've set ourselves up here, not enough bullying from loved ones makes people weak, but too much bullying from peers leads to justifiable homicide.

[Andrew NDB]

Insult your own children? Be the first to pop their bullying cherry?

Did I read that right?

I think there is an area of beneficial "ribbing" that doesn't venture into Bullying™. Like, if you see your kid starting to become overweight you say something, you know? You don't just go, "Oh, you're perfect, you're amazing! More to love of you, my amazing child!"

[IndigoErth]

I wonder if parents today just treat their kids like they're... well, precious little gems. I really do think that parents owe it to tell their kids they're goofy looking, and to bust their balls just a bit so that when they hear it from other people they're not as phased by it.

That does sound horrible, I know.
No, I'm not going to agree, because that just purposely tears at their self esteem and can create similar/same issues coming from the opposite angle. And kids are all different and it's going to vary what they can take, how they take it, and the tone used probably plays a big role. Gentle teasing that isn't mean spirited is one thing, and like your cousin maybe it can pad some kids to be able to brush off other teasing later. But unfortunately plenty of families DO use it only in a mean spirited and/or criticizing way. Take a kid who gets enough of it at home and then gets it a school... Yeah, not good if there is no place to get away from it.

Big difference between coddling them as "precious little gems" and simply being a good parent/other adult who pays attention and talks to them and shows them how to cope when thing get crappy. Don't tear them up... (I have a mother who did that and will forever resent her for it) just teach them how to deal when life and OTHER people try to. How to accept their feelings about something and move on.



Side note, you don't even have to coddle them to make them unable to put up with crap in life. What example are too many adults providing?? For every kid who witnesses a parent have a fit at and bully a store associate in order to try to get his/her way, or sees them argue with a teacher over a grade or disciplinary issues instead of taking it up with their kid, or sees their parent's terrible behavior on the road, to name a few... Yeah, what is that teaching? That it's always someone else's fault, that it's right to flip out if you aren't getting your way, esp if doing so will GET you your way, and having a meltdown is the proper response. If they aren't being SHOWN how to deal, then they aren't going to learn how to. Even if they are NOT the coddled sort. An angry kid from an angry family didn't have to be coddled to learn how to respond with anger to everything that doesn't go their way...

Some are strong enough to step past their upbringing, but most are not.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I think there is an area of beneficial "ribbing" that doesn't venture into Bullying™. Like, if you see your kid starting to become overweight you say something, you know? You don't just go, "Oh, you're perfect, you're amazing! More to love of you, my amazing child!"

Of course you say something. But if your options are A: "Easy on the Little Debbies, lard ass!" and B: "Hey, champ, you're weighing in a little heavy... that's not healthy, so let's see if we can't fix that." and you think A is acceptable...

Well, you're a terrible parent.

[plastroncafe]

This is where the subject of safe spaces comes into play.
And why there's a difference between someone who loves you being concerned about your health and mental well-being, and someone who doesn't know you on the street telling you to put down that sandwich lard ass.

You can sometimes be reasonably assured in the fact that your family has your best interest at heart. And trust that if they cross a line, that they will back down.

Anecdotal evidence isn't the same thing as data but I sure do know a lot of women who got disordered eating because their parents follow A, and not B.

I feel for this newest high school shooter, I'm sure it no point in his life where his boundaries ever respected, so why should he respect the boundaries of others? He never learn how. But that doesn't let him off the hook for his actions.

I'll never forget being on another board where I was harassed and stalked by a user, only to have some of the moderators on that board say it was cute and that he was only joking and I shouldn't be worried about it.

[BartAllen]

Yeah, I'd be willing to bet that your cousin isn't as cool with it as they say they are, and are just dealing with it.

Though maybe they have an innate set of coping mechanisms to deal, or maybe there are other aspects of their immediate family that have helped to develop those coping mechanisms.
Good for them regardless.

But just as everyone in the world will never run a 3 minute mile, everyone in the world doesn't have the same allotment of ability to cope.
Which is why it's important to listen to people when they tell you to stop. To not just develop, but respect the boundaries of other people.

What's funny, is that I called him, and I asked him about it after I wrote the post. He told me he didn't like it as much as he led us to believe, but he was glad it happened anyway because it did toughen him up when he was bullied about his weight in school.

[plastroncafe]

My question for you is this:
If he'd have told you it bothered him at the time, would you have stopped and apologized?
Or would you have taken the discomfort you felt for being told you were harming a person and try to pass it back to them by saying you were only kidding?

Be honest.

[BartAllen]

My question for you is this:
If he'd have told you it bothered him at the time, would you have stopped and apologized?
Or would you have taken the discomfort you felt for being told you were harming a person and try to pass it back to them by saying you were only kidding?

Be honest.

Of course. We did tell him we were playing with him all the time. He was/is still fat. To clarify, we only called him Chubbs. We never said he was disgusting or anything like that. We all had nicknames for eachother. Mine was BH (I have a big head). Personally, I'm very thankful for being called BH as a kid. It made me VERY aware of the fact that I do have a big head, and when other people tried to use that as an insult against me it didn't phase me at all. I actually had a really good response to it (one that I can't share on the board).

It's a nice little slippery slope we've set ourselves up here, not enough bullying from loved ones makes people weak, but too much bullying from peers leads to justifiable homicide.

Haha. That's a mighty fine leap. A little ribbing is alright. Long Term harassment is an entirely different matter. And no one is saying what happened at that school was justifiable. This kid deserves all the punishment that's headed his way.

My point is that we should make sure our children have the coping skills to deal with the **** they're going to deal with in schools. Now that's not to say they should have to deal with long-term harassment. There is an ocean of a difference.

[plastroncafe]

That's why it's called a slippery slope.

[BartAllen]

That's why it's called a slippery slope.
Fair enough, I do think you have a point. What works with us might not work for everyone. I realize that. I just don't think the answer is coddling people. If they have a problem they are going to have to face it and learn to deal with it.

[plastroncafe]

I don't think this kid was coddled.
I think he was mistaken.
And given how our media and our culture portray romantic relationships, it's an easy mistake to make.

He thought he lived in a world where he was owed what he wanted, and couldn't handle the reality.

One of the reasons I really enjoy Avatar the Last Airbender is because there's an entire episode devoted to: Just because you love someone, that doesn't require they return that love.

In Legend of Korra they dealt with the fact that Love Isn't Enough. Relationships need more than love.

Most of our media doesn't have that message.
We get: If you wear her down, she'll say yes!
And video games where when you complete the task, you get the girl.

Heck, we've got people saying the ex-fiance of the Golden State Killer might have been to blame, because that sick f*ck used to cry her name out while raping people.

[TurtleWA]

Of course you say something. But if your options are A: "Easy on the Little Debbies, lard ass!" and B: "Hey, champ, you're weighing in a little heavy... that's not healthy, so let's see if we can't fix that." and you think A is acceptable...

Well, you're a terrible parent.

and even...
C: let the kids doctor decide to say something and make recommendations
D: as a parent model healthy eating habits like more vegetables and fruit and not so much junk in the house, less beer and cigarettes as a parent. Make it a family rule to treat you bodies in healthy ways and model it. The “do what I say not what I do” mentality just makes more work for you as a parent.
E: let your kid talk to you about school and practice what they would do when bullied or being rejected by peers. Maybe go on a walk for exercise and have this talk.
F: answers B through E

[Leo656]

plas actually makes a good point about the line between good-natured and well-intentioned kidding and actually bullying or picking on someone.

Personally, as a person who takes a lot of sh*t, I also give a lot of sh*t. Not like "mean", but if I'm close to someone we generally give each other a playful hard time, often to degrees that other people may not understand; to them, we may sound like we're saying awful, hurtful things, but between us it's just goofin', because we've established the boundaries already, and we're just kinda twisted people with a warped sense of humor.

That being said, communication is absolutely essential to ensure things aren't going too far. A girl I knew in high school was a really good friend of mine, part of our little "group"; she was just a friend, but to give you an idea, to this day I still carry a picture of her in my wallet, just because she gave it to me once upon a time and said "Here, keep it in your wallet." So I do. Anyways. She was really, really short. Like under 5' tall. And we ALL would tease her about it, to the point where it was just The Thing About Her Everyone Teased Her For. We all had "A Thing." Mine was my hair, or my height, this guy was Too Quiet, this other girl was Too Hyper, whatever, we just gave each other sh*t in a playful way like that because we hung out every day and it's what you do.

Anyway, so one day during a free period, a few of us started teasing her like usual, and maybe something else was going on, but she wasn't playing along like usual, with the comebacks or whatever. And usually, that just meant that the "joke" wasn't funny enough for a retort, so we'd "try harder". At one point when we started actually working on our project, she put her head down like she was going to take a nap. When the bell rang, she didn't respond. I figured she didn't hear it, so I tapped her gently on the shoulder and whispered to "wake her up". She sprang up, tears down her cheeks, punched me in the arm, cursed me out and stormed off.

ALL of us were like "........whaaaat?!" Because that had NEVER happened before. A little bit later we set aside some time to talk alone, and she apologized, but also explained that A. The teasing DID bug her more than she ever let on, and B. She got it constantly from people we didn't even know were doing it, like family and such. So MAYBE she was having a bad day for lots of reasons and it just bothered her more than usual, or maybe enough was finally enough, but either way, we talked it out and set up "New Rules". She kept saying it "really wasn't that big a deal" but I just said that I, personally, wasn't going to go there anymore if it was genuinely hurting her feelings. We still had lots of other stuff to give each other sh*t about. :trazz:

Point being, we had the conversation, and once it became clear that it wasn't "Just goofin'", we stopped. Like yeah, words are just words and we should all "get tougher", and yeah, being short myself, for example, I personally don't feel it's a big deal, but I'm one person, other people feel different about it, and I respect that. If you're really just TRYING to get a reaction out of someone even if you know it genuinely upsets them, well, you're just being a dick at that point. If they don't wanna "play", don't force 'em.

Either way, people should really talk more. Like REALLY talk. My "group" used to "Hold court" at Denny's all night, and if anyone had a grievance we'd air it. Some of us would have previously been in fistfights or f*cked each others girlfriends, but here we are later on, f*cking around like, well, kids. That's how it was, and how it should be.

I feel like ultimately the fact that people don't communicate very well has a lot to do with the emotional problems of this generation coming up. Like, yes, we're more connected... but are we really "communicating"?
---------------------------

Meanwhile, the shooter's Dad sounds to be pulling the "Not MY Son, he's a misunderstood little kid" angle, from what I've read. Come ON, guy. More and more, this is all starting to come together. Tsk tsk.

[plastroncafe]

I've got family in the military who constantly tell me about the down right BLUE things their friends say with each other. And they're like...they'd probably make you angry to hear.

To which I say:
Why would I get offended about what other people say in their own safe spaces.

Now if they said some of that stuff to me, or rather at me, I'd likely get pissed. Not because of the words, but because they'd be assuming a level of connection we don't have.

They're not my friends. They're not my family. They don't get to talk to me like that, because when/if they reach a boundary...I don't know enough about them to know that they'll stop.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

and even...
C: let the kids doctor decide to say something and make recommendations
D: as a parent model healthy eating habits like more vegetables and fruit and not so much junk in the house, less beer and cigarettes as a parent. Make it a family rule to treat you bodies in healthy ways and model it. The “do what I say not what I do” mentality just makes more work for you as a parent.
E: let your kid talk to you about school and practice what they would do when bullied or being rejected by peers. Maybe go on a walk for exercise and have this talk.
F: answers B through E

Are you an actual parent? You seem extremely sensible and likeminded.

And I give tons of sh!t to my friends and siblings. So much sh!t. There's a difference between being a peer and being a parent. You can't treat your child the way you treat your buddy, because your child is going to receive those words and take them to heart. Your buddy's not gonna be offended if you tell him, "Hey, nice manboobs, chubba-chubba!" Or if he is, he'll fire back, "Damn straight, Larry! Your pencil of a girl wishes she had my cleavage!"

But a kid is different. Any parent SHOULD be able to tell you so. But as today's generation of psychopathic attention-seeking shooters will show you, parents are failing.

[TurtleWA]

Are you an actual parent? You seem extremely sensible and likeminded.

Yeah I’m a parent. However I don’t think being a parent necessarily makes you know or not know about things.

[plastroncafe]

But a kid is different. Any parent SHOULD be able to tell you so. But as today's generation of psychopathic attention-seeking shooters will show you, parents are failing.

I think in many instances parents are set up to fail.
Ultimately how they raise their children, and what their children do, is their responsibility, but no one gets raised in a vacuum.

And what's that line from Bojack Horseman?
When you're wearing rose-tinted glasses, red-flags just look like flags?

Kids are going to learn things not at home.
That's how even Dan Savage's kid was against Gay Marriage initially.

I think this goes beyond just parental involvement.

[TurtleWA]

Yeah kids do experience a lot of things when flying free from the nest. But I sorta think of it like the saying “give a person a fish and you feed them for a day, teach a person to fish and you feed them for a lifetime.” Hopefully the kid learns enough skills from you in order to face/process the world when alone.

However kids grow up and need to make their own decisions. And form their own identity. Sometimes complete opposite from there parents, sometimes similar and often a mix of everything inbetween.

Hopefully you set a solid foundation when raising your kid and as the days pass you monitor that foundation for cracks.

[Andrew NDB]

Another good guy with a gun took down a bad guy and saved lives.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/us/oklahoma-city-shooting/index.html

[Leo656]

So... hypothetically... if this person hadn't legally-purchased, trained with, and been carrying one of those evil "guns"... whoever the other guy was could've killed everyone in the place, taken whatever he wanted and left without any opposition, until the police showed up "eventually." Instead, for those reasons and those reasons ALONE, the only one dead is the criminal.

Fascinating.

[Candy Kappa]

Another good guy with a gun took down a bad guy and saved lives.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/24/us/oklahoma-city-shooting/index.html

So... hypothetically... if this person hadn't legally-purchased, trained with, and been carrying one of those evil "guns"... whoever the other guy was could've killed everyone in the place, taken whatever he wanted and left without any opposition, until the police showed up "eventually." Instead, for those reasons and those reasons ALONE, the only one dead is the criminal.

Fascinating.

you even read the article?

"A man walked into Louie's Grill & Bar and opened fire, striking two people. As the gunman was fleeing the scene, a bystander armed with a pistol confronted the shooter and fatally shot him outside the restaurant"

the White Hat didn't save lives, he just shot the fleeing gunman. Which sure, at least he killed the gunman and not a bystander with a wallet (so I guess he wasn't a off-duty cop). Although, I wonder if the story would have been different if the guy who broke his leg trying to flee the gunman would have made it out of the Bar & Grill first, luckily we don't know.

heres some more links, although a couple don't work for me due to some weak-ass excuse about "attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore cannot grant you access at this time"...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma-city-louis-grill-bar-shooting-today-2018-05-24/

https://newsok.com/article/5595860/shootings-reported-near-britton-and-lake-hefner-parkway

http://kfor.com/2018/05/24/man-opens-fire-at-louies-restaurant-at-lake-hefner-several-people-injured/

http://www.news9.com/story/38274550/witnesses-react-to-shooting-at-louies-on-lake-hefner

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/state/okc-police-gunman-in-okc-restaurant-shooting-dead-after-bystander/article_064c8622-a12e-5b8a-a17c-8763499bbef1.html

[Andrew NDB]

California Farmer Charged With 12 Felonies After Trying To Register His Guns

https://www.themaven.net/bluelivesmatter/news/california-farmer-charged-with-12-felonies-after-trying-to-register-his-guns-KaYA9xPcY0eSpeNnNm6PCw/

[Andrew NDB]

How to reduce gun violence and gun-related deaths:

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/11-ways-reduce-your-risk-death-gun-violence

[PApagreg]

California Farmer Charged With 12 Felonies After Trying To Register His Guns

https://www.themaven.net/bluelivesmatter/news/california-farmer-charged-with-12-felonies-after-trying-to-register-his-guns-KaYA9xPcY0eSpeNnNm6PCw/

Love how you forgot to mention that 12 of them were illegally modified.

[Andrew NDB]

Love how you forgot to mention that 12 of them were illegally modified.

That's about as far as you can get from the point. He had no idea. He's an old time farmer trying his best to comply with rapidly changing laws, not because he had to, but because he wanted to adhere to whatever is going on... and now he's looking at more combined time than most murderers.

[BartAllen]

Insult your own children? Be the first to pop their bullying cherry?

Did I read that right?

It's not about insulting them. You're taking what I wrote and leaping to some bizarre conclusion. What i'm saying is that parents should give them a realistic response when they ask about why kids call them fat at school.

As a parent are you going to tell them that they're not fat and the kids at school are just mean?

Or are you going to tell them the truth? That they're overweight. Again, yea, to an extent you should be honest with your kids. Get them prepared for life. Part of that is giving them coping mechanisms as they grow so that when they hear that stuff from other people they can more easily deal with it.

Why weren't these school shootings happening 50 years ago? This **** is happening all the time now. It's can't solely be about entitlement. No one is going to convince me that it's worse today than it was in a pre civil rights america. This is happening because kids are coddled by their parents and can't deal with being rejected or told they're gross.

[Andrew NDB]

Why weren't these school shootings happening 50 years ago? This **** is happening all the time now. It's can't solely be about entitlement. No one is going to convince me that it's worse today than it was in a pre civil rights america. This is happening because kids are coddled by their parents and can't deal with being rejected or told they're gross.

It's almost like 50 years ago we had full access to fully automatic weapons (which we haven't, for 20) and had 0 school shootings.

Except that's exactly the case. But it's the guns. Has to be. While the more enlightened countries today who have already banned guns are literally trying to pass laws about rounding kitchen knives to save lives on the streets like it's the most basic, sound, logical thing that it should go without saying.

Infuriating.

There will always be a mental health aspect that is a small ratio (that often, like the guns themselves, seems an easy target that groups point to) but it is far and wide societal. An internet age where kids are put in front of YouTube and good, old-fashioned hands-on parenting is optional (and becoming increasingly discouraged, it seems)... susceptible to a multi-billion dollar media that is all to willing to step in and play mom & dad, that's where it seems we're at to me. But good luck legislating parents into, you know, actually being parents.

[Sumac]

Western society took idea of "equality" in the wrong way and now coddle sick people, instead of curing them.
For example, like all this ******** about "fat shaming". Sorry, being fat is unhealthy and I don't care if it hurts your feelings if someone states so. You might die early from that, but yeah, your feelings are more important than your life it seems.

There is need to eliminate racism and sexism, but it has nothing to do with coddling unhealthy behavior of the person.

[plastroncafe]

This is treading dangerously close to the school shooters were bullied narrative, which is been demonstrated to be false over and over again.

These boys were not bullied, they were told no in situations where they felt they were entitled to a yes.
And they violently lashed out.

These boys weren't marginalized.
They're just used to getting what they want.

From Affluenza Boy to Brock Turner people make excuses for their behavior instead of bringing them to Justice.

[Sumac]

These boys were not bullied, they were told no in situations where they felt they were entitled to a yes.
And they violently lashed out.

These boys weren't marginalized.
They're just used to getting what they want.

From Affluenza Boy to Brock Turner people make excuses for their behavior instead of bringing them to Justice.
But...but...everyone are unique and awesome in their own way!
How can you take away people's autonomy from them by telling that they are "wrong" and "should change" and that they do not deserve something because they are existing? I mean, what are you - a fascist? :o:o:o

[plastroncafe]

Harassment

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Cop Out and Cowardice.

[TurtleWA]

This is treading dangerously close to the school shooters were bullied narrative, which is been demonstrated to be false over and over again.

These boys were not bullied, they were told no in situations where they felt they were entitled to a yes.
And they violently lashed out.

These boys weren't marginalized.
They're just used to getting what they want.

From Affluenza Boy to Brock Turner people make excuses for their behavior instead of bringing them to Justice.

Yes entitled young kids are in school systems.

I’m sure they hear a lot of “yes” answers. All the time. I’m sure they rarely hear a “no.” I pretty sure they could get a firearm if they wanted.

I also think that we have situations all across the country that young kids get told “no” perhaps for the first time.

Maybe in a public way that causes embarrassment. I’m also certain that they all don’t respond by murder. It hurts and they go on with life.

It’s not as simple as [entitled kid + No for first time = murder]
Or we would have much much much more murders.

I’m more interested in knowing what causes one kid in the situation to go get the gun and the other just to go secretly cry and maybe get drunk.

[plastroncafe]

Agreed.
If this was solely a case of bullied kids lashing out at their abusers, we would also see many more attacks. And they'd be coming from a much more diverse pool of assailants.

But some Factor, some force, is radicalizing these young men. And until we're willing to address what that force and factor is, all we're doing is keeping an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff instead of putting a fence before the ravine.

What is it about the culture that these boys are steeped in that leaves them to the conclusion that this is a rational course of action.
This is why people go after video games, and music, and gun culture. They're looking for the places in which the circles of the Venn diagram converge.

[Sumac]

Harassment
Asking you a question is a harassment?
Pathetic.

What is it about the culture that these boys are steeped in that leaves them to the conclusion that this is a rational course of action.
This is why people go after video games, and music, and gun culture. They're looking for the places in which the circles of the Venn diagram converge.
It's all video games fault! It's all guns fault! It's all music fault! It's never people's fault! It's never parents fault!

Being so clueless and at the same pretending to have some moral superiority...:lol:

[TurtleWA]

But some Factor, some force, is radicalizing these young men. And until we're willing to address what that force and factor is, all we're doing is keeping an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff instead of putting a fence before the ravine

There will always be a force or factor. It’s like the whack-a-mole game. Exhausting, pointless and you will never get them all because another pops right up.

I’m curious about when two people have been exposed to the same contaminate. What makes one person turn and not the other?

What antibody do the kids access that choose to go cry rather than murder? When and where did they develop this defense? How to get this vaccine to all?

[plastroncafe]

I like this vaccination analogy, because like real vaccinations the cause of disease is always evolving and changing and as a result so does their cure.

Me personally? I think a little empathy training would go a long way.
And so too would some emotional awareness.

But there are some really uncomfortable aspects to our culture that should really be unpacked and addressed.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Oh, I see there is still plenty of pot-stirring going on. No surprise there.

[Andrew NDB]

Another "good guy with a gun" saves lives and takes down a shooter.

https://www.king5.com/mobile/article/news/local/he-is-a-hero-armed-civilian-kills-gunman-at-tumwater-walmart/281-565164739

[Candy Kappa]

Access denied from the website. Is it another "hero" who shot a fleeing suspect so he couldn't be apprehended?

it's interesting that you keep posting "good guy" with guns articles on the School Shooting thread.

[Rooish]

it's interesting that you keep posting "good guy" with guns articles on the School Shooting thread.

Yeah it seems like an issue of priorities, given the thread topic.

[Andrew NDB]

Access denied from the website. Is it another "hero" who shot a fleeing suspect so he couldn't be apprehended?

No. Shot in the act and lives saved.

it's interesting that you keep posting "good guy" with guns articles on the School Shooting thread.

Yeah it seems like an issue of priorities, given the thread topic.

It's not that interesting. If the "Banning guns" thread hadn't been locked I'd post it in there.