NFL owners decide all teams are required to stand during National Anthem

[Andrew NDB]

http://www.birminghamtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Colin-Kaepernick.jpg

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/23/sport/nfl-spring-league-meeting-national-anthem/index.html

[FredWolfLeonardo]

There was a time when treason was punishable by Death.

[plastroncafe]

Nothing says Freedom like forced participation.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

So much for the 1st Amendment.

[BartAllen]

So much for the 1st Amendment.
... I hope you're not serious.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't really care about this either way, but... if you're clocking on to do a job (and these guys are), how much Freedom of Speech are you really guaranteed during your working shift? In any job? If I get hired to do a job, and every day at 8:30 AM, I'm supposed to stand in the break room with all of the other employees and recite pages from the Employee Handbook as part of the job details... can I just say "No, I'm not going to do that, I'm going to stare at the ceiling and hum the theme to 'Lassi' instead because that's what I want to do"? I think not. I don't think football players should be allowed to be special.

[plastroncafe]

Of course they have to make them stand, the Military isn't paying them to advertise dissent.

My hope is that every player stays off the field.
As for me, I'll be finding new homes for my Pat's stuff.

[Leo656]

I don't really care about this either way, but... if you're clocking on to do a job (and these guys are), how much Freedom of Speech are you really guaranteed during your working shift? In any job? If I get hired to do a job, and every day at 8:30 AM, I'm supposed to stand in the break room with all of the other employees and recite pages from the Employee Handbook as part of the job details... can I just say "No, I'm not going to do that, I'm going to stare at the ceiling and hum the theme to 'Lassi' instead because that's what I want to do"? I think not. I don't think football players should be allowed to be special.

You're alright, you.

Spoiled millionaires can whine about their politics on Facebook and Twitter on their own time, like everybody else. People who work real jobs can and do get fired every day for espousing political views that are contradictory to those of the company paying them. Right or wrong, that behavior causes a conflict of interest that puts the company in an unenviable position, and most companies are liable to shareholders.

In ANY job, ANYwhere, you're expected to toe a certain line in order to continue collecting a paycheck. There are written AND unwritten policies of behavior, at ANY job, period. You don't follow them, you take a walk.

Adding in the fact that, statistically, if most of these guys weren't playing sportsball, they'd be in jail or otherwise not doing so great, they'd probably be best off focusing on what they're being paid to do, and share Personal Opinions on Personal Time.

Of course, the dirty truth is, it's really more about attention on themselves than it is about any cause or belief. That's why they INSIST upon making a big spectacle out of waving their "beliefs" like a flag in the first place.

Either way, there's wisdom in the saying, "Don't sh*t where you eat." Maybe they could stick that in their playbook.

[plastroncafe]

What I love is that the NFL went and made THIS a priority.
Not the traumatic brain injuries.
Not the fact that they employ rapists, abusers, and murders.

This.
One dude taking a knee during a song that his bosses get paid to play by the Military.

Their job is to play football.
This isn't playing football.

[TurtleWA]

I always thought it was common knowledge of no politics in the workplace.

[Leo656]

What I love is that the NFL went and made THIS a priority.
Not the traumatic brain injuries.
Not the fact that they employ rapists, abusers, and murders.


Hey, on this I agree.

Personally, football is an item of disgust, for me. Between the fact that it's literally a meat grinder that leaves people brain dead and half-crippled before middle age, and the fact that a good percentage of the participants are violent criminals who couldn't even fit into society at all if they couldn't throw far or run fast, and will ALWAYS be excused from even the worst wrongdoings based solely on their athletic ability rather than their value as a human being (or lack thereof), but it's this huge point of obsession with people... it just really bothers me and always has.

It always upset me whenever people glorify what is, in truth, the worst parts of humanity. And that's what football is, and what its fans are about. "I don't care if he's a rapist, he's great on the field!" Or, "I don't care if he killed all those dogs," or even, "I don't care if these guys' brains are turning to soggy Corn Flakes, so long as I'm drunk and entertained!"

I run into an uncomfortable amount of football fans who will openly declare, "I don't even CARE if O.J. did it. He was the best!" Like, okay, this is no longer "a game", it's a cult that worships the absolute worst of humanity, putting them on a pedestal like kings.

People are lucky I'm not in charge; I'd shut the whole thing down. Dead serious.

[Utrommaniac]

Oh man, I agree on the priorities being unorganized.

The majority of these players are absolutely going to die from brain-related trauma, if disease or accidents get to them first. The players safety on the field should be the first and foremost priority, no if ands or buts. Even playing in middle school or high school will cause some brain damage. Those of them that are parents have sworn to never let their own kids play because of the injuries they've sustained.


Fvck football and its entire culture (and being part of why state universities are so expensive).

[TurtleWA]

Yeah it’s easier to control what your employees do at work than it is to control their private life. But when private life interferes with work then alot of employers offer programs and second chances.

[Leo656]

Fvck football and its entire culture (and being part of why state universities are so expensive).

I used to work with the Rutgers Materiel Services crew, setting up and moving offices and dorms and such, all over their NJ campuses.

That stadium they bought a few years back was NOT a popular decision among Rutgers staff and employees. :lol: To say the least.

Basements flooding, stairwells crumbling, departments being downsized... let's just piss a ton of money away on something we technically already have, but BIGGER and FLASHIER!

Yeah, it's all a crock of sh*t. No priorities.

Yeah it’s easier to control what your employees do at work than it is to control their private life. But when private life interferes with work then most employers offer programs and second chances.

This is the Second Chance. They had all last season to get it all out of their system. Time to suck it up and move on.

[plastroncafe]

I have to laugh, because my alma mater is a hockey school, to the point where my 2nd year in they up and cancelled the football program entirely, so that they could funnel more money into men's hockey.

Those entitled pricks got pretty much what ever they wanted on campus, and I lived next door to the captain of the team my junior year.
Which was also the year I shared a dorm room with a fetish dancer.

5'10" without her 6" stilettos.
Believe you me, when she went next door to ask them to lower the music because it was too loud...they heeled.

[TurtleWA]

I have to laugh, because my alma mater is a hockey school, to the point where my 2nd year in they up and cancelled the football program entirely, so that they could funnel more money into men's hockey.

Those entitled pricks got pretty much what ever they wanted on campus, and I lived next door to the captain of the team my junior year.
Which was also the year I shared a dorm room with a fetish dancer.

5'10" without her 6" stilettos.
Believe you me, when she went next door to ask them to lower the music because it was too loud...they heeled.

I think you just described the next zac efron movie.

[Papenbrook]

A racist, white institution silences the expressions/voices of people of color.

Nothing new. Tragic, but not surprisingly so.

[Candy Kappa]

What a ****ing joke, yup problem solved :lol:

Wouldn't it be better to just stop playing the national anthem and get to it with the sweaty men playing safety rugby? It's so tacky to begin with anyway.

[Prowler]

I never understood why Americans didn't just decide to play rugby. They didn't even have to change a lot of rules. Pretty sure New Zealand plays a slightly different version of rugby from most countries and yet still plays rugby.

Seriously, people enjoy a violent and dangerous sport played by super jacked dudes like this with lots of stoppage time for commercials? How is it more popular than basketball, for example?

American football sounds like It'd be a good sport if it was played by robots or aliens who can't feel pain, but actual flesh and bone people?

[Andrew NDB]

I never understood why Americans didn't just decide to play rugby.

We do.

https://www.usarugby.org/

[Prowler]

We do.

https://www.usarugby.org/

I didn't mean that literally. Ofc some of you play rugby. I'm sure some Europeans play baseball and american style football as well.

I mean, why didn't you just invest a lot in rugby? Did the sport never really catch on there?

[Leo656]

My theory is, Americans by and large seem to prefer "All-American" things... even if they're "borrowed" from elsewhere.

Baseball is "The National Pastime," but it's heavily based on Cricket, for example. And you've pointed out the football/Rugby association.

We like to take things and "tweak" 'em until they're "Ours". Just how we are.

[Prowler]

My theory is, Americans by and large seem to prefer "All-American" things... even if they're "borrowed" from elsewhere.

Baseball is "The National Pastime," but it's heavily based on Cricket, for example. And you've pointed out the football/Rugby association.

We like to take things and "tweak" 'em until they're "Ours". Just how we are.
Well nothing wrong with that, per se. But rugby is already physical enough and yet you guys invented an even more dangerous version of it?

...then again I do like pro wrestling. So maybe I have no room to talk.

[Klunk1234]

It was time that this ridiculous kneeling stuff comes to an end. The country's national anthem deserve respect. This kind of "football" (yes, they use their hands mostly not their feet-- unlike one that is called "The Beautiful Game" and was invented by England) will be never be an Olympic sport, so they don't have any idea what is to face another country's team, and the winner stands on the podium fighting tears when he or she listens to his or her country national anthem. They are a bunch of rich crybabies. Except one NFL player who stood proudly for the USA national anthem. Why? Because was a war veteran who serve his country before playing the sport.

[Katie]

They didn’t always play the national anthem at sporting events. It’s a fairly recent thing. Like really became prominent during Afghanistan campaigns.

To me, the players aren’t hurting anyone. They aren’t out there burning a flag or anything. Just kneeling. Maybe praying. I don’t find it any more offensive than someone kneeling around a flagpole on the National day of prayer. Hell, in my own office there are three bible study groups...men only!

If the wanna kneel who cares. The nationa anthem has a decidedly racist stanza that we don’t normally sing, but it’s there. Let people express patriotism however feels best to them.

[Andrew NDB]

They didn’t always play the national anthem at sporting events. It’s a fairly recent thing. Like really became prominent during Afghanistan campaigns.

To me, the players aren’t hurting anyone. They aren’t out there burning a flag or anything. Just kneeling. Maybe praying. I don’t find it any more offensive than someone kneeling around a flagpole on the National day of prayer. Hell, in my own office there are three bible study groups...men only!

If the wanna kneel who cares. The nationa anthem has a decidedly racist stanza that we don’t normally sing, but it’s there. Let people express patriotism however feels best to them.

I don't care either way. They can or they can't. It's a company and it's their new policy. If McDonald's said all employees had to do 10 pushups before their shift, that's their business. It's a mega corporation, not a community property... it's whatever.

[Leo656]

Perhaps a solution could be proposed where immediately FOLLOWING the National Anthem, one minute of silence would be observed in which everyone could kneel, pray, whatever - as long as it was quiet and respectful.

That seems like a compromise that's more than fair. Nothing is being disrupted, nobody's "beliefs" or causes are being disrespected - everybody gets to do what they want to do, nobody gets hurt, and everyone gets their way. Everyone gets to make whatever personal "statement" they want, and then, after a short 60 seconds, everyone moves the f*ck on with the actual reason they're there in the first place - a bunch of guys crashing into each other for 8 seconds, before somebody blows a whistle and they all stand in a circle watching replays for 20 minutes.

Just seems like the only reasonable thing to do. But then, most of those pesky "actual solutions" require some kind of compromise, and people don't really like to do that right now.

I don't care either way. They can or they can't. It's a company and it's their new policy. If McDonald's said all employees had to do 10 pushups before their shift, that's their business. It's a mega corporation, not a community property... it's whatever.

I'd support that. Some of those people definitely could use the exercise. No kiddin'.

[Andrew NDB]

I'd support that. Some of those people definitely could use the exercise. No kiddin'.

Of course. The disconnect seems to be, "Wellll I like my football! It's America! It's a part of all of us!! This is so messed up!" No. That's nonsense. It's a company, no different than Microsoft or Amazon or anything else.

The argument against this is literally no different than me saying, "Wtf with the rainbow bandannas on TMNT! So stupid they're rolling with the kiddy shill to appease little kids and nostalgiacs!" While (I feel) true... it's a corporate entity and they can just do whatever because they paid 63 million dollars to do so and the only guy who had the power to say "no" said "yes." Buying toys 20 years ago didn't give us some kind of strange shareholder advantage or anything, it gave us squat.

Equally stupid as the people fervently against this: the people against "Rise of the TMNT."

[joe-eyeball]

My theory is, Americans by and large seem to prefer "All-American" things... even if they're "borrowed" from elsewhere.

Baseball is "The National Pastime," but it's heavily based on Cricket, for example. And you've pointed out the football/Rugby association.

We like to take things and "tweak" 'em until they're "Ours". Just how we are.


Exactly! I mean our national anthem (the music) is borrowed from an old popular English pub song isn’t it?��

[plastroncafe]

Yup.
With the lyrics taken from a poem about how even the author was surprised we were still standing after a seemingly Superior onslaught.

And we only drive on the right side of the road because the British drive on the left.

That said, that this entire charade is being characterized as patriotic is laughable.

Kind of curious about what the Venn diagram for people who cry censorship when one of the major Comic companies pulls a cover from a book, and people who are in support of the NFL right now would look like.

[joe-eyeball]

Yup.
With the lyrics taken from a poem about how even the author was surprised we were still standing after a seemingly Superior onslaught.

And we only drive on the right side of the road because the British drive on the left.

That said, that this entire charade is being characterized as patriotic is laughable.

Oh the whole thing is a joke for sure, although I have no doubt that many that have served view it as a patriotic thing but the NFL just wants to keep profits rolling in so they come up with this ridiculous “solution”. And I’m sorry but the whole reason the players are doing it has been completely lost on the public. It’s fair to say neither side has handled any of this all that well

[plastroncafe]

Yeah, I don't think there WAS any loss in profits.
This is political, and dangerous.

The current administration is saying that anyone who doesn't stand for the song of our country shouldn't be in our country...that's dangerous.
Those aren't American values.

[Redeemer]

Yeah, I don't think there WAS any loss in profits.
This is political, and dangerous.

The current administration is saying that anyone who doesn't stand for the song of our country shouldn't be in our country...that's dangerous.
Those aren't American values.

There was a loss in revenue in the form of tv ratings. A large portion of NFL revenue comes from tv ratings and sponsors. Tv ratings were down across the board and They lost one of their biggest sponsors (Papa Johns).

I do agree that it is also political though and the current administrations stance is dangerous.

[plastroncafe]

There was a loss in revenue in the form of tv ratings. A large portion of NFL revenue comes from tv ratings and sponsors. Tv ratings were down across the board and They lost one of their biggest sponsors (Papa Johns).

I do agree that it is also political though and the current administrations stance is dangerous.

I would be VERY CURIOUS to see hard numbers for this loss, and whether they're in keeping with the overall ratings drop due to alternative methods of viewing or not.

[Mayhem]

The current administration is saying that anyone who doesn't stand for the song of our country shouldn't be in our country...that's dangerous. Those aren't American values.
So anyone without legs, or who is disabled... oh wait, we already know what Trump's view on those demographics are already, so would come as no surprise :roll:

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, I don't think there WAS any loss in profits.

Pretty sure there was. I know tons of people IRL who refused to watch Seahawks games here last season as a result of a lot of the taking knee business. Even them not letting their kids watch the games either, and the kids being mad about it. It was a thing. I'm also pretty sure Papa John didn't get himself thrown out as CEO of Papa John's by screaming about profits being down if they weren't. That... really wouldn't make any sense at all.

https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/nfl-tv-partners-set-lose-500-million-ratings-decline/

I mean what, are we to assume they're lying here? For what purpose?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I think national anthems work best during games between national teams.

[Redeemer]

I would be VERY CURIOUS to see hard numbers for this loss, and whether they're in keeping with the overall ratings drop due to alternative methods of viewing or not.

https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/314167/nfl-ratings-slide-10-anthem-protests-cited.html

[plastroncafe]

https://www.mediapost.com/publications/article/314167/nfl-ratings-slide-10-anthem-protests-cited.html

It's an interesting correlation, to be sure. But I can't help but think that loss of viewership could also be due to the fact that more people stream their entertainment, rather than watch it on network television.

[Redeemer]

It's an interesting correlation, to be sure. But I can't help but think that loss of viewership could also be due to the fact that more people stream their entertainment, rather than watch it on network television.

I think streaming definitely is an additional cause for loss of tv ratings (3rd variable) But I still think the main/biggest reason is the protest.

[Leo656]

The current administration is saying that anyone who doesn't stand for the song of our country shouldn't be in our country...that's dangerous.
Those aren't American values.

By the same logic, the pro-kneelers are openly and loudly telling anyone who thinks that people should have to abide by a corporate-set company policy and keep their politics to themselves while they're "on the clock", same as any other job, that they're a racist, bigoted monster.

Also dangerous, also not American Values.

Fact is, as a person you can have NO opinion about race, or racially-motivated shootings, or any of that at all, and still understand this simple principle:

"Freedom of Speech" is NOT protected on company time or company property.

Violation of ANY company policies for ANY reason are grounds for punishment/termination.

That's it.

Look at it this way; Sometimes, NJ "Summer" carries into October, like it did last year. I have, occasionally, received threats of termination for wearing shorts at work after September - despite the fact that it's a gym and most people in it are wearing shorts. Company Policy states that the company dress code must be adhered to, and that dress code says "No Shorts between September and May." I've been there almost a decade and I'm the best guy working there, and yet, I'm as accountable as anyone else. I can fight for my "right" to be comfortable, OR, I can suck it up, realize it's not the end of the world, and keep my job. AND, if I even TALK about politics with customers - we do, but only when it's quiet and the boss isn't around - I can be fired immediately for that, too. Meanwhile, a CUSTOMER can work out at my gym wearing a pro-Trump or Hillary shirt, and that's their business. I would be asked to change or else I'd be fired, because I'm on the clock and most people aren't being paid to promote their personal politics.

Once again, people get so caught up in "Feelings" and whatever, that they forget that feelings really don't factor into much when it comes to policy. Company's can NOT set policies based on, "Well that's mean/insensitive/etc.", they're running a business and especially the ones who have to answer to shareholders have to protect their bottom line, not the "feelings" of their employees... who most of the time are more than free to make any political expression they want ON THEIR OWN TIME.
------------------------------

I'll be blunt; this is the ONLY country in the world where some half-illiterate steroid-case who only graduated high school because he could run fast and jump high - but couldn't read or do basic math - can go on to make around 500 TIMES the national household average playing a f*cking child's game. Same goes for the spoiled actors playing make-believe, who get $20 million a movie in between threatening to move to France every time someone they don't like wins an election. Only here; you ain't getting pampered like this anywhere else in the world. That's a fact.

So since we're taking such good care of these people, at the very least they should have to show a little basic respect to the things like the flag and the anthem, which symbolize the fact that in any other country in the world, they'd starve to death for having nothing of value to contribute to society.

I've long believed that if you hate it here so much, you shouldn't be allowed to make millions upon millions of dollars of American money, which you only are able to earn thanks to a system you constantly whine about, because that's disrespectful and exploitative. Again, behave that way in public anywhere else, in any other country, and see if it's tolerated, and for how long. They should be glad they're not being forced to stand for the anthem at gunpoint; you can still get shot for "taking a knee" in much of the world. Just sayin'.

It's stupid. Shut up and stand for the Anthem, take a Moment of Silence afterwards, everybody wins. "You can't force people to _________!" Yes, you can. If you're paying someone, yes, you CAN force them to act and dress and behave a certain way while they are on company time and property. OR, those people can try working at Wendy's and see how far it gets them there, and if they'll still be getting paid so much for nothing.

Orrrrrr... we could shut down the entire NFL. I vote for that, gladly. F*ck 'em.

[plastroncafe]

Forcing a patriotic act not only cheapens the act for those who undertake it solemnly, but it is in direct opposition to why this nation committed treason in the first place.

But hey, I guess it takes all kinds.

[Leo656]

Why is it "forced"? They get paid millions of dollars for tossing a ball around and beating their wives in the off-season. That's all they contribute. They'd only get away with it in a country this tolerant, with priorities so laughably misplaced.

If anything they should be kissing the damn flag, let alone standing for the anthem. It's only "forced patriotism" because they're so self-centered, entitled, and childish. You're right; it shouldn't have to be "forced"; if they had the slightest bit of respect they'd do it willingly.

They're spoiled children.

AND, I promise you, not ONE of them gives a single sh*t about the "cause" they're supposedly supporting. It's all about attention for themselves. It's ridiculously transparent.

[Andrew NDB]

Forcing a patriotic act not only cheapens the act for those who undertake it solemnly, but it is in direct opposition to why this nation committed treason in the first place.

But hey, I guess it takes all kinds.

It's a company. It isn't the government. They can do whatever they want as long as they're not breaking any laws.

[plastroncafe]

Why is it "forced"? They get paid millions of dollars for tossing a ball around and beating their wives in the off-season. That's all they contribute. They'd only get away with it in a country this tolerant, with priorities so laughably misplaced.

If anything they should be kissing the damn flag, let alone standing for the anthem. It's only "forced patriotism" because they're so self-centered, entitled, and childish. You're right; it shouldn't have to be "forced"; if they had the slightest bit of respect they'd do it willingly.

They're spoiled children.

AND, I promise you, not ONE of them gives a single sh*t about the "cause" they're supposedly supporting. It's all about attention for themselves. It's ridiculously transparent.

I guarantee you most of the people standing for the national anthem don't give a damn about the cause they're supporting. It's Ridiculously transparent. That's why we have barely 50% voter turnout.

Hell all you have to do is go online and see the sheer number of people who don't understand the First Amendment is to protect speech from Congress.

The average American isn't exactly a scholar of Civics.

I'm not saying the NFL can't do what they're doing, I'm saying they're a shity Organization for doing so. I'm saying they're not right for doing it.

And let's be honest, the average player in the NFL makes a small fraction of what the owners do. And those guys aren't the ones on the field battering their brains for the entertainment of the masses.

[Leo656]

I'll take "Token-But-Half-Hearted Show Of Basic Respect" over "Self-Centered Disruption", thanks.

When people who don't necessarily "romantically" love this country stand and salute the flag, they're at least showing basic respect to the country, the opportunities it provides, and those people who do "love" it. Nobody's hurting or "pestering" anyone.

When people who basically rape an entire country's economy despite contributing nothing of value refuse to salute the flag/anthem, they're saying that "Everything Is About ME. Pay Attention to ME. What I have to say is what's important. And if I'm hurting your feelings, GOOD." Which is plainly disrespectful and entirely self-serving. They only do it because they know it gets on people's nerves and they get off on the attention it brings them. Which makes them childish narcissists.

Flipping what I said around to try and prove your point simply doesn't work at all.
---------------

I do agree that although I hate the sport and everyone involved in it, the fact that the athletes with the highest risk of physical injury make, on average, the lowest salaries in American sports aside from hockey - snicker - while the NFL itself makes obscene amounts of money for, basically, keeping these guys on TV and out of jail, is disgusting. If they're going to be, frankly, stupid enough to play football over a relatively "safe" sport like baseball or basketball - where players make tons more money for reasons I'll never comprehend - they should at least be compensated at least as much, if not much, much MORE than the athletes in those sports, who risk far less serious injuries and tend to have much healthier lives post-retirement. I don't argue that and I talk about it with people alllll the time. The whole system is awful. Make no mistake, I have NO respect for the NFL as an institution, but they're 100% right on principle in this specific case. They're accountable to the shareholders and MOST Americans think this kneeling thing is bullsh*t. What are they gonna do? Ignore the complaints and the boycotts? I don't think that's realistic.

Like I said, if we wanna dismantle the whole system, great. I'll sign to that. Unfortunately, we're not talking about that, we're talking about the rights of pampered millionaires to act like disruptive, whiny babies on company time when they know for a fact it pisses a lot of people off.

Imagine that. "News Flash! Pro Athletes - Maladjusted C*nts." Who'da thunk it.

[plastroncafe]

The majority of NFL players don't make millions.

And I fail to see how silently getting down on one knee is a disruption.

I shudder to think what people this buttmad about the topic think when they go to church...

[Leo656]

Flip that around: Do people who so aggressively fight for people's "right" to be disruptive, actually think taking a knee during the anthem is going to "fix racism"?

It's not. Nothing is, ever. It's not going away. Sorry. We can file that one away with, "We're going to just have to get by on solar and wind power." No chance. Pouting, stamping feet and yelling "Look at me! My feelings are hurt by things nobody can change!" doesn't do anything.

I know it's "mean" to point out Exactly How Things Are, but that's it. Human beings are tribal, tribalism leads to racism. Some of the most "Liberal" people I've ever met were some of the most shockingly racist (although they tend to be more anti-Semitic than flat-out racist; still, prejudice is prejudice).

You're not going to fix that. You're DEFINITELY not fixing it by making yourself a spectacle during an event where people are trying to have a good time and NOT think about "bad stuff".
------------------------------

"Buttmad". Me? Seriously? All I'm doing is pointing out that these people are self-interested narcissists who should be capable of showing a little basic respect to the traditions and customs of the only country that would even put them so high on a pedestal in the first place. They can whine about politics at home on their own time, publicly, on Twitter, like a normal person. I'm not denying them their right to speak or have an opinion; I'm pointing out that the WAY they're trying to do it is inappropriate and self-serving. That really can't even be disputed.

That's not "buttmad". In fact, I think that anyone who uses that word, or any variant, during a civil conversation in which they simply disagree, should simply not continue trying to have a conversation, because it betrays the fact that they're not capable of even entertaining the notion that someone else's points may be valid.

"I have nothing else to say and I can't disprove anything you say. You're a butthurt meanie." That's how it comes across when people do that. People can agree to disagree without acting like children.

I mean, people can. Liberals, not so much. :trazz: See, now we're both being childish. Yaaaaay.

...And I don't go to church, either.