Doctor Strange 2 [Archive] - The Technodrome Forums

Leo656

02-05-2020, 07:29 PM

The world has seen enough of Tobey's "Constantly on the brink of tears" Spider-Man. Those movies are alright but they really whiffed on him and Dunst. Both just the f*cking worst. People only hold them up so high because they were The First and people subconsciously hold onto a bias in cases such as that.

Peter's a sad sack but hardly the pouty, lip-quivering loser he was in those movies. I have a very hard time watching those movies anymore because Peter and MJ were so horribly miscast and they're the bulk of what you see. Blech. Just blech.

I agree that Raimi's probably a nice guy, though. I care nothing about Dr. Strange so I doubt I'll see it, but at least he's getting work. Good for him.

frank_one

02-05-2020, 07:51 PM

Sam Raimi directing one would drag me to the theatre and see my first Marvel movie in a movie theatre after his Spider-man 3.

Leo656

02-05-2020, 07:57 PM

Eh, I'm the One Idiot holding out hope for a proper Evil Dead/Army Of Darkness big-screen finale. :lol:

There's a lot of guys I like but I'm not much of a "director fanboy". Like some people are Tim Burton fanatics and watch and fall in love with everything he does, or James Cameron, or whoever, and I'm generally not like that. I don't make it a point to see EVERYTHING a person does, be it an actor or director or whatever. I learned a long time ago that just because I like what someone did with X, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll like what they do with Y.

If that makes any sense. Like I like a lot of Raimi's stuff but that wouldn't be enough to make me drop coin on a MCU flick. As Cure said, it's highly unlikely it would be "his" movie; if anything they might do a fast-zoom "wheelbarrow camera" shot or two but that's all he'd be allowed to inject of himself into the project. I hate the MCU "formula" and don't care at all about the character, so it would take a lot to get me interested.

Thus, I'm just happy to see Sam get a paycheck in a post-Evil Dead world. Guy's gotta eat, after all.

I'm actually kind of annoyed because the more Dr. Strange movies they make only means we're farther away from ever getting a Dr. Fate movie. Fate >>> Strange, anyone who says otherwise is quite simply wrong.

AquaParade

02-05-2020, 08:04 PM

I love Tobey's Spider-Man in Raimi's hands. He is able to present Tobey/Peter in a way that really makes me feel for the guy and root for him. It's for me to decide why I hold it in high regard and it isn't nostalgia. Although I am nostalgic as hell for those movies, let's not go down the "you only like it because..." route. Let people like what they like for their own reasons.

I'm not holding my breath but I'm pretty sure Kevin worked a bit on that trilogy so he might be for it.

What would really be interesting is if Raimi asks to take a crack at Tom Holland, who is due for an MCU guest appearance.

Go Dr. Strange though.

Leo656

02-05-2020, 08:29 PM

You're entitled to your opinion. I personally cannot stand a whiny pantywaist protagonist. Especially not for three movies in a row. I never rooted for him once, I just wanted him to stop the whining and get on with things. The action scenes were pretty good, though. Anything out-of-costume is a huge Hard Pass for me. Dude looks exactly like KD Lang in those movies. No Bueno.

Garfield was a much better Peter Parker in a regrettably half-baked series. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. :trazz:

I also didn't invent the situation of people developing a bias towards their first experience with something; I forget what it's called but it's a legitimate and commonly-cited psychological phenomenon. I first heard it described in reference to Peter Pan; "Whichever version of Peter Pan a person first sees, that's forever 'Their' Peter Pan no matter what". But it obviously happens with just about any fictional character, and you see it all the time. I don't invent these things, I just Observe And Report.

I'm also never surprised when people swear the phenomenon has nothing to do with them, though. That's another quirk people have; every individual swears that they're the outlier in something that commonly affects just about everyone, but if that were the case then psychology wouldn't even be a thing. You see it everywhere, like if you say, "Science says most people hate surprises," a statistically true and provable fact, but inevitably every single person in the room will jump to yell "NOT me!" whether it's true of them or not. People just really hate it when anyone points out how easy they are to figure out. But the truth is, most people are hardwired a certain way and aren't at all difficult to read. Everyone says they're the outlier but that simply can't be true in most cases.

To me, the only thing that makes sense about so many people still being fixated on a Spider-Man who even their kid sister could beat up, is that's the first Spider-Man movie they saw and are thus not going to grade the film or the actors objectively. People can like it if they want, though, that's their business. I personally can't see how Tobey gets on anyone's list for any other reason, though. And I can only call what I see.
----------------

It would be interesting to see Raimi direct Holland as Spider-Man, but mostly just for laughs. I can't stand Holland either. Dude looks like he's 10.

AquaParade

02-05-2020, 08:51 PM

Alright Wait are you actually arguing that science proves that the first version you experience of something is the version you always like best? And that’s your reasoning for all modern Raimi Spider-Man fans?
That this is scientifically backed and you don’t understand people who disagree and pretend it’s not true?

But this doesn’t apply to you? You are outside of the phenomena and prefer Garfield or Holland..even though you saw Maguire/Raimi first..... like... millions of others?

You just said you don’t understand people who think they are outside of this sort of phenomenon, while at the same time saying you don’t fall under the Peter Pan bias phenomenon that draws people towards Raimi/Maguire... despite it being a proven truth.

That... doesn’t add up lol.

Leo656

02-05-2020, 09:08 PM

No, I'm saying that science says that's how MOST people are wired whether they want to be that way or not, that it's a very real thing that happens and every single person swears that it isn't Them who's being described by it. And that it perfectly explains why so many people swear Tobey was a great Spider-Man when in truth he really wasn't.

People can like his portrayal for their own reasons, but again, objectively, he wasn't very good. If not for the "First Version People See = Favorite Version" phenomenon, he simply wouldn't be so acclaimed. He neither portrayed the character in a way that was true to the comics, nor ever stopped being an impotent whiner in general. He was incredibly unlikable, although still light years ahead of Dunst. If those same movies came out today, people would be screaming about his lack of agency and how annoying he was.

Again, it happens all the time. People swear Chris Reeve IS Superman, even though those movies are mostly-terrible and at least two or three guys since then have done a much better job. People swear Keaton was the quintessential Batman even though aside from some very stiff fight scenes and an intense glare, he barely said or did anything of note and completely played second-fiddle to his villains. Nostalgia is a very powerful factor in these things.

"You never forget your first", as they say. BUT, just like the first time you have sex is objectively never the best sex you'll ever have, the first guy to play "______-Man" is almost never the best, he's just The Best to someone who first saw them through a child's eyes. Things evolve.

There's nothing wrong with it, by the way, I just prefer when people own their biases and I don't like when people dismiss it as a factor. It's absolutely a factor.

The only way I'm "different" is that I try very hard NOT to be biased and remain objective in all things. I can acknowledge that, at one time, I was just as prone to it as anyone else, but once I decided to actually view things through a neutral lens, it turned out that a lot of the things I loved unconditionally simply weren't THAT great, and I can admit that, whereas most people can't or choose not to. They think they're somehow betraying their fandom of the thing they like if they admit that someone else did a better job playing "____-Man" than the one they loved when they were 6.

It's just like any other kind of "programming" that all humans are inherently wired with. If a person really wants to, they can shake it off, but understanding that it is in fact A Thing is step one. We all have biases, but it's up to the individual whether they want to remain influenced by those biases or if they want to be an objective and critical thinker. I, personally, opt for the latter.

AquaParade

02-05-2020, 09:15 PM

People can like his portrayal for their own reasons.

One and done. ;)

Don’t relegate people’s opinion to their specific wiring which you are, in rare manner,
exempt from, man. It’s not a good look.

You want to turn this into a lesson about bias, but I’m no stranger to the concept. I just like that version of Peter.

Try to accept that people will have different preferences and tastes that may not always line up with yours. It’s fair to disagree and I have no problem with that, but you also have to allow people to speak on their own behalf. Speak on what you dislike about it but don’t tell others what they do like about it based on some article you remember reading about phenomenons. Tacky.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-05-2020, 09:31 PM

all that stuff

"First to market" is a thing. It's not always 100%, but if you can be the first to do it, the arena is yours and the bias is usually yours to lose.

Andrew NDB

02-06-2020, 02:37 AM

Eh, I'm the One Idiot holding out hope for a proper Evil Dead/Army Of Darkness big-screen finale. :lol:

After the apparent "series finale" of Ash vs. Evil Dead I'm honeslty not even sure I want that anymore. I used to. But from where things were left? Eh. Too nutty.

Leo656

02-06-2020, 03:05 AM

Oh, sh*t, I totally forgot that I bought the series on Blu-ray and haven't watched past Season 1 yet! :teek: Good lookin' out, brah.

Season 1 wasn't the continuation I personally would have scripted, but it was alright. I'm kinda just a big mark for Ash. :lol:

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-06-2020, 09:57 AM

Cylons was entertained, but then Cylons got bored.

So, as an argument against everyone being susceptible to nostalgia... how many forum-goers here had Fred Wolf TMNT as their first Ninja Turtles? And how many of those same forum-goers now despise Fred Wolf TMNT?

In case you couldn't see, gentlemen, I raised my hand both times.

I absolutely agree Nostalgia and First to Market are true things to reckon with. But it's not always going to hold up. I've always personally gone with the theory that people have a certain amount of Nostalgia Immunity once they grow up and move beyond some things (e.g. Fred Wolf TMNT), but that those same people ALSO can't kick their nostalgia for other things.

As far as Doctor Strange... Sam Raimi seems like an interesting choice. The first Doctor Strange movie bored me terribly except for the final 10 minutes or so, when time travel became a critical element. Everything before that was Magical Iron Man Redux.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-06-2020, 11:10 AM

AquaParade

02-06-2020, 11:29 AM

All this said, I'm actually curious to know Aqua's reasons for liking the Raimi Spiderman movies.

I've not watched them (CinemaSins reviews don't count), but I feel like from what I've seen, Tobey does come off pretty uninspiring in a lot of places.

Thoughts, Aqua?

First, I respect your thoughts on Tobey. And to bring it back to center, the idea that excited me was the merging of Sam Raimi and Tobey Maguire. I'm the type of person who thinks these products are definitely the sum of their parts.

So without Raimi, I might not love Tobey as Spider-Man or vice versa. But together, i think they craft a wonderful interpretation of Peter, that I don't get from the Garfield or Holland films.

The thing about the Raimi/Maguire team-up is that I actually feel deep sympathy for the character they've crafted. The first 30 minutes of Spider-Man 2 are glorious because it's our opportunity to walk a mile in Peter's shoes and my god are they covered in ****. It's written in the script of course, but it's the direction and the acting that sell it.
This guy is a sadsack and you believe it. I crave that contrast of Peter's crap life with his cathartic release as a superhero above the streets. People don't always give credit, but Tobey's demeanor as Spider-Man was certainly livelier than it was when he is simply Peter Parker. I love seeing that transition and contrast.
And I also just love his personality traits. He is earnest and shy. Until, again, he puts on the mask and begins to live a little. Enjoy himself. He starts cracking jokes that are corny and stupid, but it's not the content of the joke that matters, it's the fact that this shy dude is now feeling on top of the world. That's Spider-Man. To me, anyway.

Tom Holland is likeable, charming, but have I ever felt true sympathy for his version of the character? No. Not really. The last scene in Infinity War was pretty good actually, but not enough. Both Tom Holland and Andrew Garfield's versions are way too secure in their personal lives for my tastes. It robs me of that strong sense of sympathy or connection. Raimi/Tobey's Peter was an "everyman". Tom's Peter is an Avenger with a strong social circle from practically day 1. Where is the cathartic release?
Same with Andrew Garfield - where is the cathartic release? I think Garfield absolutely nails the wise-cracking Spider-Man, but it all means so much less, when he is just as cool and confident in his everyday life as Peter.

Look, all of this comes down to more than just "Tobey Maguire", which is what I've tried to emphasize by stating "Raimi/Maguire", because, again, these things are the sum of their parts, as we all know.

So, yeah, I'd love to see where that version of Peter ended up, if the multiverse were to touch on it. He's my favorite Spider-Man. For the record, SM3 is a stinker, imo. Same with SM1 to an extent.
Spider-Man 2 just nailed it for me though. If you're a fan of Spider-Man, you owe it to yourself to at least watch the train sequence from SM-2 (my favorite comicbook film scene ever). I'd say watch the whole damn movie, but obviously mileage will vary.

Thanks for asking.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-06-2020, 12:11 PM

all that Spidey stuff

I tried the Garfield Amazing Spiderman, and turned it off 20 minutes into it. Garfield was way too smug and self-assured to be Spiderman. I thought the whole point of Peter Parker was to be a nerd with few friends and zero cool.

I'll eventually give the Raimi Spidey films a try, if only because my kiddo likes Spiderman and will eventually beg me to watch them. Could be awhile though. :tlol:

Andrew NDB

02-06-2020, 12:23 PM

Yeah, Garfield's Spider-Man and Peter Parker was an assh**e. Plus that first Amazing Spider-Man was pure drivel... wall to wall "let's set up other movies!" stuff. I didn't even bother seeing Amazing Spider-Man 2 but I wasn't the least bit surprised to hear it was more/worse bile.

Leo656

02-06-2020, 12:36 PM

The thing I hate the most about Amazing Spider-Man is that the guy who killed Uncle Ben is never really dealt with, as I recall. Sloppy, sloppy sh*t. They left so many things hanging for sequels, I was like, "I guess that'll come up again next time," but nope. Didn't he just keep beating up people he THOUGHT was the killer but never actually caught the right guy? Or am I misremembering? It's been like two years since I saw it.

Andrew NDB

02-06-2020, 06:53 PM

Oh, sh*t, I totally forgot that I bought the series on Blu-ray and haven't watched past Season 1 yet! :teek: Good lookin' out, brah.

Season 2 probably has flat out the grossest scene in a movie or TV show I've seen anywhere... ever, and I say that in the best possible way. I think it's like episode 2. That said, season 2's finale really sucked. Season 3 was a pretty good improvement... but I really hate that series finale. It's basically the alternate, crappier bad ending from Army of Darkness.

No thanks!

Season 1 wasn't the continuation I personally would have scripted, but it was alright. I'm kinda just a big mark for Ash. :lol:

Pound for pound I think I liked the first season best, personally. It all becomes a lot more interesting once you become more attached to the supporting cast.

AquaParade

02-07-2020, 08:40 PM

Many people are questioning why they would bring in an auteur directior like Raimi for a film this deep in production.

It’s a good question. I have a theory - Marvel has developed a routine of establishing relationships with their directors and trying to build somewhat of a brain trust among them. This may be their way of bringing Raimi into the fold before giving him control over something else they have in mind for him. As well as a bit of a “tit for tat” exchange. “Finish this movie for us and you’re in the club, baby.”

That could easily be Dr. Strange 3, but imagine if it’s something else. Marvel Zombies? Miles Morales? Ghost Rider?

MikeandRaph87

02-14-2020, 08:25 PM

Maguire's Spider-Man in Dr. Strange 2 would punch a ticket for me. I could not care less about Dr. Strange, but if my Spider-Man is given proper closure it would be great for an older storyline that got caught up in a web of production politics. The thing about it though is it would take away from the central character Dr. Strange as played by Benedict Cumberbatch and people like me while giving Disney my money for closing out something else I love I am not there to see the character the actual focus is on. I see it both ways.
https://www.ign.com/articles/how-sam-raimi-can-bring-tobey-maguires-spider-man-to-the-mcu-in-doctor-strange-2?amp=1

AquaParade

02-14-2020, 08:29 PM

Say what you want about the new Star Wars trilogy, there is a thrill there to seeing beloved characters return after so long that I am envious of. That "Chewie, we're home" line must have been orgasmic for hardcore fans.

Seeing this version of Peter would probably strike that chord for me. I can't deny being nostalgic about the character. TMNT 1990 returning would probably be more comparable but I'd settle for this.

Andrew NDB

02-14-2020, 08:49 PM

Say what you want about the new Star Wars trilogy, there is a thrill there to seeing beloved characters return after so long that I am envious of. That "Chewie, we're home" line must have been orgasmic for hardcore fans.

Maybe when I saw the trailer. In the movie it's mostly undercut by, "they're back to being f***king smugglers?"

AquaParade

02-14-2020, 09:26 PM

Maybe when I saw the trailer. In the movie it's mostly undercut by, "they're back to being f***king smugglers?"

Hmm, okay, maybe the creative decisions didn't pay off. I can't really speak to that. You're right that I'm mostly speaking to the trailer, which I found thrilling, as even a casual fan.

Andrew NDB

02-14-2020, 10:20 PM

Hmm, okay, maybe the creative decisions didn't pay off. I can't really speak to that. You're right that I'm mostly speaking to the trailer, which I found thrilling, as even a casual fan.

Same thing as when you see Old Spock doing the "live long and prosper" thing in the 2009 Star Trek trailer. Same result, too.

Egon1982

02-26-2020, 04:05 PM

I'll be curious to see what Sam Raimi does with Dr Strange.

And in his Spider-Man 2, who noticed the Dr Strange reference?

frank_one

02-26-2020, 05:40 PM

A Tobey Maguire cameo would be fun.

Autbot_Benz

04-03-2020, 02:08 PM

New release date thanks to the Rona Nov. 5, 2021

https://variety.com/2020/film/box-office/disney-mulan-black-widow-release-dates-coronavirus-1203550173/

frank_one

04-03-2020, 02:20 PM

That pesky Rona.

MsMarvelDuckie

04-04-2020, 11:20 AM

I'll be curious to see what Sam Raimi does with Dr Strange.

And in his Spider-Man 2, who noticed the Dr Strange reference?

What reference? I'm scratching my head and can't recall this.

MikeandRaph87

04-04-2020, 11:48 AM

What reference? I'm scratching my head and can't recall this.

When Peter brings in photos of Dr. Octopus a sequence like with the Green Goblin in the first film occurred which has Jameson name the villain that will be accepted by the media and the villain himself.

Any chance of McQuire making an appearance or will this speculation just lead to a tease and let down like the Abrams Spider-Man mini-series?

Autbot_Benz

04-14-2020, 05:00 PM

ComicBook NOW!
@ComicBookNOW
·
1h
DOCTOR STRANGE 2: SAM RAIMI Confirms He's Directing https://comicbook.com/marvel/2020/04/14/doctor-strange-2-sam-raimi-confirms-hes-directing/

Autbot_Benz

04-24-2020, 06:38 PM

New release date: March 25th, 2022

**** you Covid19

Redeemer

04-24-2020, 07:03 PM

New release date: March 25th, 2022

**** you Covid19

You mean **** and your mother Covid19!

ranger_scout

12-10-2020, 11:12 AM

Rachel McAdams is coming back after all.

https://deadline.com/2020/12/rachel-mcadams-doctor-strange-into-the-multiverse-1234651562/

ZariusTwo

02-15-2021, 12:31 PM

I read the latest rumour for Doctor Strange 2...it's tempting to believe it given the film's premise, but I think I'll stick to my belief we'll be seeing

Hydra Cap in the film than Evans playing both Hydra Cap and Johhny Storm from Fantastic Four 2005, complete with Jessica Alba cameo. It would be a bit silly to introduce a fraction of one version of the FF ahead of introducing the regular MCU take.

Andrew NDB

08-06-2021, 06:03 PM

I wonder what the goal is for Wanda after this movie (unless she becomes the villain and is killed). Like, do we get a Scarlet Witch movie? Some kind of WandaVision season 2? Does she just go back to being an Avenger?

Autbot_Benz

08-09-2021, 12:47 PM

https://i.imgur.com/LD9D63Q.jpg

Autbot_Benz

10-18-2021, 10:45 AM

bumped to 5/6/22

https://comicbook.com/marvel/news/marvel-doctor-strange-2-thor-4-release-date-delay/

Andrew NDB

02-13-2022, 06:06 PM

Judging by that new trailer...

Patrick Stewart was lying months ago. He didn't turn down Feige. And that cinches it -- Fox-Men in the movie.

AquaParade

02-13-2022, 06:23 PM

It’s the Illuminati I believe

neatoman

02-13-2022, 06:32 PM

I have to wonder though, if there is no MCU native version of Norman Osborn, is there a Charles Xavier? If it's Patrick Stewart here we can assume he is playing the FOX version still... Or... One of them?

That's another problem, how many versions of him were there? There were at least two, one from X-Men 1-3 which was the bad future according to Days of Future's past and one from First Class to Dark Phoenix. Beyond that I'm confused, is the one in Logan from the original timeline, the new timeline or something else like a result Deadpool jumping around time? And speaking Deadpool, is there a reason he was like 20-30 years younger in his solo movies as opposed to in Origins? Normally I'd just assume Origin was stricken from canon but it is shown during that time travel scene, so...

... God, was the continuity of those movies bad or what?

Andrew NDB

02-13-2022, 06:41 PM

There really isn't any reconciling of X-Men Origins Wolverine and the Deadpool movies. Clearly a lot of the flashbacks are canon to the later Wolverine movies, but not Deadpool. Perhaps Deadpool did more than just shoot his alternate self at the end of Deadpool 2, who knows.

Speaking of Deadpool... maybe he's IN this movie?

And will there be an MCU Charles Xavier? Well, there's only 2 options for them:

1) Yes. And we haven't met him yet.

2) No, but they're about to do some lame merging of the Fox-Men universe and the McAvoy version of him will be Xavier in the MCU going forward.

Really hoping it's option #1 and they don't go diversity or woke with it (like, it'll have to be a real handicapped person and something -- anything -- other than white).

CyberCubed

02-13-2022, 07:09 PM

It's also quite possible Patrick Stewart may not be able to act much longer, so I don't think they'll keep him around.

Andrew NDB

02-13-2022, 08:45 PM

It's also quite possible Patrick Stewart may not be able to act much longer, so I don't think they'll keep him around.

Of course not. And certainly not the MCU Xavier to be.

ZariusTwo

02-14-2022, 02:33 AM

Andrew NDB

02-14-2022, 03:01 AM

Sumac

02-14-2022, 03:42 AM

Sounds very crazy.
Hopefully movie is fun. Trailer at least gives some hopes.

ProphetofGanja

02-14-2022, 05:37 PM

The reported leaks were that it was

Stewart as Xavier, with McKellen as Magneto form part of the Marvel super group the Illuminati, with Captain Carter and Reed Richards, along with a version of Tony Stark played by Tom Cruise based off Superior Iron Man

I didn't think McKellan was ever rumored to be in the flick, but I did hear about all the others, plus a lot more.

And I do think there'll be a brief glimpse of Deadpool, too

ZariusTwo

02-15-2022, 04:39 AM

I didn't think McKellan was ever rumored to be in the flick

I think he was added during those reshoots

sdp

02-15-2022, 12:44 PM

god damn, everyone and their mother are having multiverse stories, it'll be so played out in the next 4 years or so when all these projects come out.

ProphetofGanja

02-15-2022, 01:05 PM

god damn, everyone and their mother are having multiverse stories, it'll be so played out in the next 4 years or so when all these projects come out.

who else is doing multiverse stories?

Andrew NDB

02-15-2022, 01:07 PM

who else is doing multiverse stories?

The last Spider-Man movie. The "What If?" MCU show. Loki. The Flash movie. Plus Batgirl and any DC movie that continues to have the Michael Keaton Batman in it would be a "multiverse story."

AquaParade

02-15-2022, 01:21 PM

Andrew NDB

02-15-2022, 01:40 PM

It's definitely in danger of feeling played out. It's a tricky thing to balance, I think, because it allows for a lot of "easy way outs", which can quickly become frustrating for audiences. Especially in the MCU, where they work on the fly, and are very liberal about forcing a script into submission in a sometimes awkward way.
Although, they deserve credit for handling the fan service moments quite well, so far. Tobey and Andrew were put to great use in No Way Home. It didn't feel cheap at all.

At the same time, there is potential for a ton of cool stories, so I do want to see it played to it's full potential before the toys are put away.

I think the obvious time the multiverse stuff will go away is when they run out of universes that people would care about the MCU multiversing with.

Like, what do we have?

* Two different Fox-Men "generations."

* Two different Fantastic 4 universes.

* Two (three, including Venom?) different Spider-Man universes.

Um... what's really left that anyone is going to give a sh** about the MCU crossing over with? What, Tom Jane's Punisher? Nicholas Cage's Ghost Rider? That'll be that.

Jester

02-15-2022, 03:52 PM

Afleck's Daredevil?
Eric Bana's Hulk?
I wonder if Norton would come back for a joke cameo.

Also isn't Black Bolt a member of the Illuminati? Maybe Anson Mount will return.

ProphetofGanja

02-15-2022, 10:36 PM

The last Spider-Man movie. The "What If?" MCU show. Loki. The Flash movie. Plus Batgirl and any DC movie that continues to have the Michael Keaton Batman in it would be a "multiverse story."

Ah ok, see in my mind that's just two ("Marvel" and "DC"); I'm just lumping together all of each of their uses of multiversal shenanigans in a story as one instance each. For the MCU that makes sense to me since all the stories are connected, but I don't know what's the case with any of the DC joints anymore :sweatdro:

Andrew NDB

02-16-2022, 12:18 AM

Afleck's Daredevil?
Eric Bana's Hulk?
I wonder if Norton would come back for a joke cameo.

Also isn't Black Bolt a member of the Illuminati? Maybe Anson Mount will return.

Those are examples of things they COULD do multiversally... not examples of things they could do that more than 5 people would care about.

A Norton appearance would be nice, though. Though him as the Hulk -- any Hulk -- would sadly make the least amount of sense since he's supposed to be the same guy as Ruffalo in the same universe. Eric Bana as an older, grizzled Hulk/Banner from another universe would be kind of cool, though.

Sumac

02-16-2022, 01:42 AM

I feel like Norton won't work, since he is explicitly supposed to be the same Hulk as Ruffalo. Though, Feige and Co always can whip and explanation.

Andrew NDB

02-16-2022, 01:44 AM

Though there'd kind of be a weirdness with, eh, if they're willing to work with him on another big budget, massive ensemble cast movie... why exactly didn't they just do so as planned with the Avengers 1? Like, wtf?

Again, the #1 thing I was looking forward to in Avengers was seeing the Norton Banner/Hulk interact with RDJ and the others.

ZariusTwo

02-22-2022, 07:56 AM

A fresh rumour that Strange and Chavez will briefly enter the X-Men: TAS universe in the movie

https://geekositymag.com/doctor-strange-2-cameos-include-animated-x-men-97/?fbclid=IwAR2sji9njusPApaD33Y1Fy4ZhyLj4NXwFCZ9wggg nwETfs1rIdJhOqKnvq0

Andrew NDB

03-02-2022, 06:45 PM

They reshot "most of the movie."

https://bgr.com/entertainment/an-exciting-doctor-strange-2-cameo-was-just-confirmed/

neatoman

03-03-2022, 05:22 AM

They reshot "most of the movie."

https://bgr.com/entertainment/an-exciting-doctor-strange-2-cameo-was-just-confirmed/

So assuming the movie is two hours long, then they carved out at least 61 minutes and shot at least 61 minutes of more footage. How does that happen?

Andrew NDB

03-03-2022, 10:44 AM

So assuming the movie is two hours long, then they carved out at least 61 minutes and shot at least 61 minutes of more footage. How does that happen?

I suspect what happened is that "No Way Home" made a ton of money and they realized their actual Multiverse movie didn't have enough Multiverse. So now they reshoot in the X-Men, Fantastic Four maybe, more Spider-Men again, etc..

AquaParade

03-03-2022, 11:03 AM

Norton was a better Bruce banner

Of course, he's super talented. And Mark Ruffalo hasn't had much to work with, imo. He had some fun moments in the first Avengers and has been pure comic relief since.

Andrew NDB

03-03-2022, 11:10 AM

Of course, he's super talented. And Mark Ruffalo hasn't had much to work with, imo. He had some fun moments in the first Avengers and has been pure comic relief since.

Pretty weird what they've done with him. Rather than develop him and get into good stories with him... their idea seems to be "let's completely change who the Hulk is every time you see him." While subtly shoving him into the background of late because of toxic masculinity or whatever it is.

Sumac

03-03-2022, 11:52 AM

Pretty weird what they've done with him. Rather than develop him and get into good stories with him... their idea seems to be "let's completely change who the Hulk is every time you see him." While subtly shoving him into the background of late because of toxic masculinity or whatever it is.
More like, because, Hulk on his own is a fairly one note character, and in ensemble cast he is even worse than usual.

ZariusTwo

04-26-2022, 10:22 AM

3mSMUZ_aC14

Illuminati confirmed

Leo656

04-28-2022, 03:17 PM

Not related to this new movie, but it showed up in my News feed, and... yikes.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doctor-strange-actress-zara-phythian-073347020.html

Andrew NDB

04-28-2022, 03:39 PM

Not related to this new movie, but it showed up in my News feed, and... yikes.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doctor-strange-actress-zara-phythian-073347020.html

I like the little stinger at the end there:

"His previous marriage had broken down as he had a relationship with Ms Phythian who was a teenager at the time."

Who is this chick, though? I don't remember her in Dr. Strange. Is she somebody in the new one?

Leo656

04-28-2022, 03:44 PM

No idea. You know I don't watch Marvel movies.

She's "nobody", apparently. No Wikipedia page, but according to the Wiki for the first movie she (and other people with no page) "portray zealots under Kaecilius" whatever that means. That might mean something to someone who actually watched the movie.

Autbot_Benz

04-28-2022, 06:34 PM

15 second trailer shows Prof X in his animated series yellow hover chair and Wanda fighting Captain Carter

Coola Yagami

04-28-2022, 07:26 PM

Not related to this new movie, but it showed up in my News feed, and... yikes.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/doctor-strange-actress-zara-phythian-073347020.html

No Leo. It's OK. They're leftists. It's OK when THEY do that. They're the good guys, remember?

It's sex with a teen when it's a leftist, it's raping a minor when it's anyone non-leftist.

Andrew NDB

04-29-2022, 09:54 AM

Apparently Disney is refusing to cut 12 seconds in the movie for Saudi Arabia where America Chavez talks about her 2 moms.

Super vital to the movie, I'm sure.

AquaParade

04-29-2022, 09:56 AM

That’s a good thing. If I have to choose whether something is preached too heavily or something harmless is being censored, I’ll choose the former.

I don’t need to be told lesbians are okay, but over there they do, apparently. Lesser of two evils imo.

Leo656

04-29-2022, 09:58 AM

I mentioned that in the Gay TMNT thread.

On the one hand, I am against any and all censorship as a rule.

On the other hand, this is a case of Disney creating a problem for themselves by choosing to die on these hills. Don't put it in there, you don't have to cut it later. Simple.

...Unless they LIKE the attention and the flag-waving and "Look! We're taking a stand against injustice!" virtue-signaling stuff. But they'd never do that, surely.

I don’t need to be told lesbians are okay, but over there they do, apparently.

They sure do have weird rules over there.

Lesbians = Bad.

Polygamy, beating women, and having sex with little girls = Good.

I assume if there were a scene in the movie of someone taking a child bride there'd be no discussion at all of cutting it for being offensive. You can't make this stuff up.

AquaParade

04-29-2022, 10:06 AM

Exactly.

And while I don’t like being preached to in my movies, it actually has me considering the larger world impact of “virtue-signaling”.

If people over there can’t see event films like this, because of a measly same-sex kiss, then idk, maybe it’ll open some eyes or get people thinking, or have an impact on their economy to the point they give in eventually.

These are international products, and maybe some people actually do need some virtue signaling. I’m not saying it’s ideal, but worth considering.

Leo656

04-29-2022, 10:17 AM

The reason I say "Maybe they shouldn't bother putting stuff like that in there in the first place, then" is because by and large, the cultural consensus on movies nowadays - especially stuff like Comic Book Movies - is that if you're not trying to maximize eyeballs (and dollars), then your approach is inherently Wrong.

For example - and this is an entirely different thing, I'm just using it to make a broader point - look at all the stuff Snyder put in his DC movies that was inherently divisive on purpose, which by natural was limiting the amount of money they would ever conceivably make. Nothing that would get them banned in This or That country, but things that he knew well in advance would piss people off. It was a given that children and women, two of the most lucrative "crossover" demographics, were not going to turn up or pay money for his movies. In turn, most people say, "It's stupid he even put This or That in his movies if he knew it would piss people off. His job was to make movies that would make billions of dollars and appeal to all age groups and demographics, and he did the opposite on purpose. What a moron he is."

Well, even though it's different, it kind of isn't, if Disney decides to put stuff in their super-hero movies that they KNOW in advance is going to cause problems in China or the Middle East, and potentially lose them some money. "Well, we feel it's important to our version of the story." Okay, great, but how come that excuse only works SOME of the time, and otherwise you're not doing your job if you're not trying to play it safe?

At the end of the day, what's most important to me is creators getting to tell stories the way they want to. But at the same time, it is admittedly kind of silly to go out of your way to create a ceiling or build a fence around your product.

The reason this one instance seems a bit disingenuous to me is the timing of it all. Disney's embroiled in a big row about LGBTQ rights and representation, and now they get to say "Look! We take a big stand!" after they were very recently accused of punting the football. Just seems... suspicious.

AquaParade

04-29-2022, 10:32 AM

I don’t see the similarities between this and the Snyder situation, personally, but I may agree with the rest.

I mean, frankly, Disney is pretty overboard with this stuff lately. I sort of give them credit for all the crap Brie Larson said, and anything happening within their franchises, so yeah, it’s gotten a wee-bit old.

I’m just trying to consider that maybe this isn’t so much about preaching to us. I mean, when you have a product this in-demand, you can actually maybe help push some change where it is needed, with the power of that product. Some good could potentially come of it. And in terms of superheroes movies, there is something romantic about that.

People just need to know their place over here. Again, Brie Larson….shut up - you are not the one to be preaching and you have no clue what you’re talking about. Context matters.

Leo656

04-29-2022, 10:36 AM

The admittedly-broad point was, the general thinking of most people with regard to blockbuster movies is, "If you put things in there that you know will upset people and cost you money, then you're stupid."

Because the point of blockbusters is maximum penetration and profit. Therefore, why be divisive on purpose? Why include content you KNOW you'll have to cut or apologize for later? It's quite literally creating problems for yourself, and needlessly.

That was the point I was making. While also noting, I don't necessarily agree with that point. I just recognize it's how most people feel.

In the two otherwise-unrelated examples, what was consistent is that a filmmaker made a bold choice that they knew would limit their audience (and profit), and that it begs the question of "Why would you even?"

Hope that clarifies.

AquaParade

04-29-2022, 11:12 AM

I hear you. Makes sense. It's just that the driving force behind each decision is so different. One is creatively-fueled and one is, well, virtue-signaling.

Makes sense though.

Andrew NDB

04-29-2022, 11:27 AM

Coola Yagami

04-29-2022, 11:56 AM

Well, here's the thing. I feel like in most movies, generally speaking, you might see a line in a movie such as "My parents are waiting for me, I gotta get home!" And you'd never see the parents in the movie, they wouldn't impact the story, nothing. It's just a throwaway line. You could even just make the line "I gotta get home!" and the parents could be implied. But now, with this same movie, that throwaway line is becoming more and more, "My dads are waiting for me, I gotta get back to themn!" or something such.

And they aren't shrugging and going, "Eh, it just popped out as I was writing it. It's no big deal and whatever." The contrary. It is highly deliberate. It's super important to them and absolutely vital.

Yeah these idiots would rather waste time and money all for the sake of 'the message'.

The real problem is the over reliance on China. I don't care if America Chavez has 10 dads. If you're gonna throw that line in there tell China to lick your balls and swallow your shaft and keep the line in there internationally.

AquaParade

04-29-2022, 12:01 PM

Worst thing about pandering to China - besides the blatant racism of doing things like shrinking John Boyega on a Chinese version of an American poster - is the lack of demons, devils and hell in our movies. Super taboo in China, but I need my fix of demonic horror. I want to see Mephisto in a Marvel movie, for instance. I want to see Batman take on the devil - yes, the devil. I like weird ****.

Leo656

04-29-2022, 12:32 PM

I can't even wrap my head around why stuff like that is so taboo over there, or anywhere. It's like saying you can't depict a unicorn. This Stuff Is All Fake, people. It's just movies and make-believe.

Religious beliefs? Also fake. Grow the f*ck up, people. Your god of choice isn't going to be offended if you put a demon or something in a movie because - Spoiler Alert! - your "god of choice" isn't real, either. None of them are.

Not wanting Gay Stuff in places where they still arrest and/or kill people for that stuff... it's backwards, but at least it makes sense in a way. It's tangible. Banning depictions of ghosts and demons and other blatantly not-real stuff is stupid. What's even the point of fiction at all, by that point?

AquaParade

04-29-2022, 12:42 PM

True. It reminds me of the recent craziness around voice actors needing to be the same color/gender/whatever as the characters they are all voicing. At some point, what are we even doing in both these scenarios?

Leo656

04-29-2022, 12:54 PM

Indeed.

My favorite part of the whole "Having white people voice black characters steals opportunities from black voice actors" debate is the fact that every single black cartoon character is voiced by Kevin Michael Richardson. So if anyone is "stealing opportunities" from other black voice actors it's That Guy.

ZariusTwo

05-01-2022, 10:46 AM

Spoilers are making the rounds with footage of

Reed Richards and Black Bolt

superstaff

05-01-2022, 10:54 AM

Spoilers are making the rounds with footage of

Reed Richards and Black Bolt

Is it a new version of [spoiler] or an actor from one of the previous versions reprising the role?

Autbot_Benz

05-01-2022, 11:54 AM

Is it a new version of [spoiler] or an actor from one of the previous versions reprising the role?

Its John Krasinski as Reed he was what fans have been begging for. Can't tell you who was black bolt

ZariusTwo

05-01-2022, 01:32 PM

Its John Krasinski as Reed he was what fans have been begging for. Can't tell you who was black bolt

It's the same one from the Inhumans tv show, under a mask

neatoman

05-04-2022, 08:54 PM

Alright, I've seen the movie.
In case anyone is wondering, Xavier is probably not meant to be the same one as in the X-Men movies despite Stewart reprising his role. The reason is that he is native to a bizarro earth where the red/green meaning of traffic lights are swapped, pizza comes in ball form and New York has vegetation growing on the buildings. Those movies depicted the city in a fairly normal way, so it's safe to assume it's not meant to be the universe of those movies. And yes, if you thought this meant he was the 90's cartoon Xavier instead, it obviously excludes that possibility too.

And... Yeah, he does kind of go out in a lame way. Even though it's not really the one from the X-Men movies, Stewart is old and it's kind of sad to think this somewhat undignified version might be the last time he plays the role...

In fact, all of the Illuminati goes out in lame ways, they're all killed by Wanda in humiliating ways.

Edit: Oh, and about the second after credits:
I'm not sure who the character is, I'm guessing Blink from Exiles but I'm not too clear on that.

superstaff

05-04-2022, 09:50 PM

Alright, I've seen the movie.
In case anyone is wondering, Xavier is probably not meant to be the same one as in the X-Men movies despite Stewart reprising his role. The reason is that he is native to a bizarro earth where the red/green meaning of traffic lights are swapped, pizza comes in ball form and New York has vegetation growing on the buildings. Those movies depicted the city in a fairly normal way, so it's safe to assume it's not meant to be the universe of those movies. And yes, if thought this meant he was the 90's cartoon Xavier instead, it obviously excludes that possibility too.

And... Yeah, he does kind of go out in a lame way. Even though it's not really the one from the X-Men movies, Stewart is old and it's kind of sad to think this somewhat undignified version might be the last time he plays the role...

In fact, all of the Illuminati goes out in lame ways, they're all killed by Wanda in humiliating ways.

I read those leaks/spoilers, and I hate it. I hate that they made a huge stupid joke out of it. These characters should have been a threat, and a big deal. But nope. Must have it undercut with a very dumb joke. This is what I hate about modern MCU.

Leo656

05-04-2022, 10:20 PM

I read those leaks/spoilers, and I hate it. I hate that they made a huge stupid joke out of it. These characters should have been a threat, and a big deal. But nope. Must have it undercut with a very dumb joke. This is what I hate about modern MCU.

The people who make Marvel movies hate comic books and super-heroes and want you to know that. They think it's all incredibly dumb and that you're stupid for liking the stuff. They scream it at you for two or three hours at a time, three or four times a year.

And yet somehow, it goes completely over peoples' heads. It's kinda f*cking amazing.

Andrew NDB

05-04-2022, 11:20 PM

So spill. What are the cameos? Anything exciting?

Autbot_Benz

05-05-2022, 12:20 AM

So spill. Whay are the cameos? Anything exciting?

Patrick Stewart as Prof X Haley Atwell as Captain Carter John Kransnki as Reed Richards and Anson Mount as Black Bolt in actual comic costume. Bruce Campbell plays a Pizza guy and Charlize Theron plays Clera Strange the wife to an alt eart Dr Strange.

Edit: Oh, and about the second after credits:
I'm not sure who the character is, I'm guessing Blink from Exiles but I'm not too clrear on that.

Its Clera Strange Dr Strange's Wife from an alt earth

Andrew NDB

05-05-2022, 12:29 AM

So....

... no Fantastic Four (either version), no X-Men (either generation) outside of FAKE Xavier, no Spider-Men, no Ghost-Rider, no Jane Punisher, and no Deadpool.

Is that right? If so, lame.

They reshot almost the whole movie just to incorporate some 5th and 6th rate multiversal cameos?

ZariusTwo

05-05-2022, 12:48 AM

Patrick Stewart as Prof X

Also this briefly plays when Xavier is introduced

gL8D3TB-lz8

Autbot_Benz

05-05-2022, 01:54 AM

Also this briefly plays when Xavier is introduced

gL8D3TB-lz8

That makes me happy

ZariusTwo

05-05-2022, 02:00 AM

So I did watch it yesterday, and it's just...OK.

I know I've seen some express disappointment at the lack of gargantuan cameos outside of the Illuminati, but I kind of prefer the smaller scale. They could have went full Endgame cameo with it, but the stakes are more personal when making it more about the core characters with only the slightest kiss of fanservice. It meant there was less distraction. Raimi's directing creates some captivating visuals. Horror isn't my favourite movie genre, and the usual MCU brand of humour I have a great distaste for, but the story holds together pretty solidly. If you go in with the impression that it's 'Wandavision Season Two' you get a lot more out of it, especially if you're feeling a little overexposed on Stephen from No Way Home

neatoman

05-05-2022, 04:35 AM

Also this briefly plays when Xavier is introduced

gL8D3TB-lz8

Sadly, I couldn't hear it because I went to a showing with like 300 teenagers who felt like cheering and applauding at everything, it was really annoying and I never understood what compels anyone to do that. With a live performance it makes sense but not when it's a recording, it's not like the people on screen can even hear you.

superstaff

05-05-2022, 06:31 AM

The people who make Marvel movies hate comic books and super-heroes and want you to know that. They think it's all incredibly dumb and that you're stupid for liking the stuff. They scream it at you for two or three hours at a time, three or four times a year.

And yet somehow, it goes completely over peoples' heads. It's kinda f*cking amazing.

Yeeeeeah.

I think somewhere around Thor Ragnarok, the MCU began to inject all this cynical weird humor into all their movies, and it's gotten much worse over time. I thought the MCU was fine before that. Now? Bleh. The movies are held together by glue of empty fanservice and comedy that happens every 10 seconds. They just can't have dramatic scenes happen, they have to insert somebody making a quip. I've seen people blame Whedon and Gunn for this, but...eh, they knew when to pace themselves in their movies, and when to have the characters become serious when there's a threat. Raimi should know better since he also adhered to this. His movies had humor in them, even very dark jokes. But not what the leaks/spoilers describe for this.

Also this briefly plays when Xavier is introduced

gL8D3TB-lz8

See, this is what I mean when I say 'empty fanservice'... What is the point of this song playing aside from titillating nerds (and wannabe nerds) in the audience? It doesn't even make sense since this version of (spoiler) doesn't even have that theme song. I can't remember that ever playing in the original movies.

The cameos just feel so pointless, and a wasted potential. Apparently they re-shot most of the movie to incorporate that??

ZariusTwo

05-05-2022, 06:55 AM

See, this is what I mean when I say 'empty fanservice'... What is the point of this song playing aside from titillating nerds (and wannabe nerds) in the audience?

The show is coming back next year

superstaff

05-05-2022, 06:58 AM

The show is coming back next year

And X-Men '92/'97 is not connected to the MCU or the Fox X-Men movies, nor is the Stewart Xavier involved. So why is it in a MCU movie aside from empty fanservice?

ZariusTwo

05-05-2022, 07:30 AM

And X-Men '92/'97 is not connected to the MCU or the Fox X-Men movies, nor is the Stewart Xavier involved. So why is it in a MCU movie aside from empty fanservice?

MCU movies aren't really films, they're commercials. Nobody actually watches these for the plot, they're products intent on selling you the next product, from set-ups, to guest characters, to mid/post credits, it's all to keep the wheel spinning and the IPs farming.

It's a very sad practice, and the quality does dip the more they double down on the process, it's just unfortunate people still don't notice.

And the multiverse connects everything whether it's featured prominently or not.

superstaff

05-05-2022, 07:51 AM

MCU movies aren't really films, they're commercials. Nobody actually watches these for the plot, they're products intent on selling you the next product, from set-ups, to guest characters, to mid/post credits, it's all to keep the wheel spinning and the IPs farming.

It's a very sad practice, and the quality does dip the more they double down on the process, it's just unfortunate people still don't notice.

Yeah. I'm well aware that the MCU are just poorly done commercials. Fans deserve better, but I guess most of them don't care, and just want to sit in a theater for two or more hours, stuffing popcorn in their mouths just to watch celebrities make jokes, and punch stuff. I enjoy comics, and movies, and comic book movies, although I expect, you know, a coherent plot and good characters that actually develop...

I think Mike Stoklasa of Red Letter Media was right that studios should just remove all pretext of these being real movies, and just release extended cuts of superheroes just fighting each other in glorified fan films...maybe throw in some toilet humor, and quips too.

And the multiverse connects everything whether it's featured prominently or not.

Right. By this logic, they might as well just have the Batman '89 theme play as Tom Hiddleston trips over his cape, and falls flat on his face as he groans that he accidentally took Batman's cape from the dry cleaners last Tuesday. Multi-verse should allow this to happen. :toops:

Coola Yagami

05-05-2022, 09:34 AM

Ugh .. so I guess not another one worth catching CoVid over.

Man, this year's movies have been disappointing. It's just becoming too much of a hassle to leave the house for anything superfluous anymore.

Shark_Blade

05-05-2022, 09:53 AM

Is anyone else bored with the film?

Coola Yagami

05-05-2022, 10:13 AM

I guess I'm done with Marvel. I'll just stick around for more Spider-Man and Venom, but not even the new Thor interests me.

After End Game, the MCU is already showing signs of overstaying it's welcome. It really shoulda been the grand finale. Like, ending a show while it's still hot.

I mean whenever the MCU actually ends for real, it's gonna feel wrong without the OG Avengers in it. It's just gonna be all these weird gender swapped race swapped wannabes.

superstaff

05-05-2022, 10:29 AM

I think I was done with the MCU at around Black Panther. It was the first MCU movie I skipped, though it was due to health problems at the time. Despite this, people got angry at me for not going on Day One, and accused me of bigotry. It turned me off from the movie, though I also wasn't super, super crazy about some of what I heard either. I did see Infinity War, and enjoyed it, even though I saw the 'cracks' in the walls with some of the random humor. Still mostly a solid film.

However, I still skipped Ant-Man and the Wasp, mostly out of disinterest even though I enjoyed the first one. Captain Marvel was a redux of Black Panther, with people getting angry that I, a woman, would skip out of The Most Feminist Film Of All Time (Wonder Woman was also this in 2017). I didn't like the spoilers I read for it, and never saw it. I read leaks for End Game, and wasn't crazy about it, then I did actually watch it (not on Day One), and I didn't like much of it (to sum it up: didn't like how they ended Tony and Steve's arcs, the time travel was meh, Thanos felt bland and poorly utilized overall in EG, hated the female hero war scene...). Even still, I would've preferred that had been the grand finale to the MCU, and just leave it be.

That was never going to happen, obviously.

Far From Home was awful, to me, and I know I might be the only person on the planet who hates FFH and NWH. Black Widow was crappy. Shang-Chi was surprisingly fine, though it still suffered from the dumb, 'lol random' humor, just not as much. Completely skipped Eternals. ...Yeah. I don't think they've been building up to anything, have they? Didn't they reference the Skrulls in FFH? What happened to that? Now they keep doing multi-verse stuff in their shows, and now the movies. Is that their new 'Thanos'? I couldn't tell you what the direction of the MCU is anymore. It feels like a lot of waste potential, and as I said before, bad commercials meant to sell you ideas, and not stories to love.

Coola Yagami

05-05-2022, 10:48 AM

I actually enjoyed Black Panther, though I mostly saw Captain Marvel to see any hints of End Game, as most people did, and hey, Fury and Coulson, even though sadly Coulson only had a bit part.

End Game and the Spider-Man movies were it for me. Far From Home was the epilogue, showing a world in mourning without an Iron Man, and what happened after the snap was undone. I kinda consider Black Widow to be extra DLC cause there's nothing in that movie that couldn't have happened after Civil War, especially since that's when it took place. Ant-Man and the Wasp was fine, it's just too bad Lang was mostly a bumbling idiot throughout the whole thing.

Spider-Man No Way Home was pretty much Spider-Man End Game for me.

But I didn't even waste time with Shang Chi, the Eternals and I guess I'm gonna skip Dr. Strange and no interest in Thor.

Like I said, I'm only in it for Spider-Man and Venom. Maaaaaaaybe I'll be curious on the new X-Men if they ever get around to that.

But you're right. They're not really building up to anything. The most I heard is that maybe Kang the Conquerer will be in the next Ant Man as a prelude to him building himself up as the next big bad. But none of these other movies have shown any kind of build up to that, so they're all just a waste of time. Might as well just skip straight to Ant Man then.

sdp

05-05-2022, 12:06 PM

Love or hate the MCU, End Game was the peak, it'll slowly become less relevant over the next few years, it won't be a sharp fall but slowly over time. This is regardless of it's better than ever or worse than ever or just the same.

Nothing lasts forever.

Andrew NDB

05-05-2022, 12:36 PM

And X-Men '92/'97 is not connected to the MCU or the Fox X-Men movies, nor is the Stewart Xavier involved. So why is it in a MCU movie aside from empty fanservice?

Maybe because they intend to use it or a version of it when they do their first real X-Men movie. I would, if I were them.

Love or hate the MCU, End Game was the peak, it'll slowly become less relevant over the next few years, it won't be a sharp fall but slowly over time. This is regardless of it's better than ever or worse than ever or just the same.

Nothing lasts forever.

You people have been saying that for years. If anything, they're becoming more relevant in the post-COVID landscape. At a certain point, though, yeah, they will need to start building up to some kind of payoff. The only things I see them doing right now is setting the stage for some kind of new or younger Avengers (Yelena, Kate Bishop, Ms. Marvel, US Agent, etc.) and the arrival of Galactus.

superstaff

05-05-2022, 12:58 PM

You people have been saying that for years. If anything, they're becoming more relevant in the post-COVID landscape. At a certain point, though, yeah, they will need to start building up to some kind of payoff. The only things I see them doing right now is setting the stage for some kind of new or younger Avengers (Yelena, Kate Bishop, Ms. Marvel, US Agent, etc.) and the arrival of Galactus.

What have they done to build up Galactus?

As of right now, they're doing a poor job of building up to a new plotline. They don't seem to know what they want to do. Their new Avengers are very disconnected from each other, too, being scattered amongst TV shows and the like.

And honestly, I don't think they will use Kate or Kamala in a main Avengers things, so they'll likely do a TV show/movie for Young Avengers instead... As for Yelena, John, and the other characters, they've barely been relevant. They've been mostly side characters, not even leads of their own shows/movies. Shang-Chi is the only one they've properly inoculated as of yet because the after credit of his movie showed him being introduced to Bruce, Wong, and Carol (and I love Bruce's line of "welcome to the circus"). Maybe this is a huge part of why I actually liked Shang-Chi, it felt like it was a 'part of something', and felt more like a classic MCU (intro) movie with a fish out of water protag learning more about his powers/background, whereas the other MCU movies lately feel incredibly disconnected from each other, and from a greater plot to build towards.

ZariusTwo

05-05-2022, 01:40 PM

The post-credits scene making mention of

'incursion'

lends me to think the endgame of the next few phases is an adaptation of 2015 Secret Wars

Sumac

05-05-2022, 02:16 PM

I like MCU movies, they are becoming dumber and dumber, and I watch fewer of them as a result, but there are some still genuinely good ones, like No Way Home, which completely blew me away, in a good way, which is rarity, when it comes to superhero movies and blockbusters in general.

I haven't watched Eternals and Black Widow, neither I intent to, since I haven't heard anything good about either.

Andrew NDB

05-05-2022, 02:58 PM

What have they done to build up Galactus?

The death of the Celestial inside the Earth opens it up as fair game for Galactus to consume.

superstaff

05-05-2022, 03:13 PM

The death of the Celestial inside the Earth opens it up as fair game for Galactus to consume.

They've already alluded to other stuff as well, that's not the point.

They haven't been building up a storyline at all. In Phase One, they built up the formation of the Avengers leading into that movie. Then they began to build Thanos. They had goals in mind when they did these things, they weren't just throwing stuff at the wall like they seem to be doing now.

Sumac

05-05-2022, 04:45 PM

They've already alluded to other stuff as well, that's not the point.

They haven't been building up a storyline at all. In Phase One, they built up the formation of the Avengers leading into that movie. Then they began to build Thanos. They had goals in mind when they did these things, they weren't just throwing stuff at the wall like they seem to be doing now.
That's how I feel like about current MCU stuff: Its aimless. There is no goal in sight.

Maybe it was a Fox acquisition, which threw their plans off, by "forcing" them to add X-Men or they just never figured out what to do after Endgame in general, but it really feels, like they don't have any idea, what to do in the future.

superstaff

05-05-2022, 06:11 PM

That's how I feel like about current MCU stuff: Its aimless. There is no goal in sight.

Maybe it was a Fox acquisition, which threw their plans off, by "forcing" them to add X-Men or they just never figured out what to do after Endgame in general, but it really feels, like they don't have any idea, what to do in the future.

Yes, precisely. I think they either never planned anything past End Game, which would be foolish if they didn't but alas, or the Fox acquisition made them abandon whatever ideas they had, and are now trying to smush the X-Men and FF in. Either way, it's clear that they have no actual goal now.

Andrew NDB

05-07-2022, 02:46 AM

Saw Doctor Strange 2. I'm underwhelmed.

It doesn't advance anyone's story. Doctor Strange's whole arc in the movie is basically just he goes from mildly regretting how things ended up with Christine after cuckolding her at her wedding to kind of resolving to patch things up with her somehow... but then he doesn't even get to do that. I mean, that's it, right? Did I miss anything else?

Wanda gets resolution from Wandavision, I guess, and gives up the ghost about her FAKE kids. But that's all. And then they kill her. Though not even so much as a name drop of Vision at all or even her dead brother. Wouldn't she also want a universe where her twin brother and husband are OK, too? Weird!

And yeah, very underwhelming. It'd be one thing if it was just "Doctor Strange 2." But it's the "Multiverse of Madness." He visits a grand total of two other universes in the movie and one of them only has an alternate Doctor Strange in it. I can definitely surmise that the Illuminati were what they did all the big reshoots to include. If you take out their whole involvement it would barely impact the film at all. And think about it... what really did we get out of this movie? What new thing or building block was established? There's nothing. It just gave us Captain Two Moms with her doe eyes and that's about it. Presumably she'll get her own movie or Disney+ show where she goes and rescues her 2 moms, so it's like this movie only exists to make more than 5 people want to see that.

I don't want to beat a drum too much about what I expected or hoped would be in the movie (appearances from the whole X-Men lineup, both generations, Nic Cage Ghost Rider, some Punishers other than Bernthal, either or both of the two last Fantastic Four bunches, but certainly at least something quick with Deadpool... what other movie would serve as a better peekaboo intro for him into the MCU?) but I guess I was just expecting it would be more than "not one thing."

One thing that IS kind of neat is the clue they dropped about the Fantastic Four. Doctor Strange indicated the Fantastic Four were last trending in the 1960s... which suggests the rumors that the MCU Fantastic Four would start out in the past (like say, the 1960s) and end up time-travelling to the present are going to turn out to be true.

superstaff

05-07-2022, 06:25 AM

Yep, I read some extensive summaries of it, including yours, Andrew. See what I mean? The movies have gotten so poorly written. I was actually a little surprised by how sloppy Doc Strange 2 was. I almost feel like the shows and movies are intentionally trolling audiences with multi-verse stuff now. Not just that, I feel like there's this distinct lack of real creativity with these films. Like, Multiverse of Madness could have been a true acid trip of a movie, and not just with the cameos, but how they portray Strange and the side cast. I feel like we got a good taste of that with Sony's Spider-verse because it dared to bring in some true weirdos into Miles' world, and now they are doing a trek through multiple worlds (based on the teaser). This movie, and the MCU as a whole, has been super disappointing. The only Phase Four things I've liked at all have been Shang-Chi and Hawkeye. Loki came close, though the ending really crapped the show's bed.

Andrew NDB

05-07-2022, 06:49 AM

superstaff

05-07-2022, 06:57 AM

It could and should have been an acid trip of a movie. But they refused to have Strange barely take any sort of trip at all.

It's like what I said, a lack of true creativity and vision. It makes me wonder how much say Raimi had. I think he's done some crazy crap in the past, even in his Spider-Man movies. Yet this movie seems very bland in comparison. Not only that but the writing feels very off. I don't think Raimi wrote this, nor had much say in the script. Or maybe Raimi was 'off' during this production for some reason.

AquaParade

05-07-2022, 08:12 PM

This movie has a lot going for it, but I’m starting to feel the same about every recent MCU project. Even with their strengths, they just feel so rushed and factory-produced. It’s odd, because at the same time, they are clearly made with so much love and passion.

I’m not saying it’s the end of the MCU, but I do think it is spread too thin and moving too fast. It doesn’t feel like the scripts or the effects are getting enough time in the oven, which is undercutting all the great actors, characters, and world building they have created.
I find myself missing the Russo Brothers, because they seem to be able to work well under this type of high-pressure situation. Either that or they are being given more freedom.

All that said, I think Raimi brought a lot to this film. Glad to have him back on the scene and I hope he gets to do a Spider-Man movie for Sony, because he may operate better over there.

I am going to watch this again before judging it. There was a lot I liked. A ton of fun and ridiculous moments made me laugh in joy. I just know it’s a mixed bag for me.

Leo656

05-07-2022, 08:30 PM

Just going by Observe & Report - I don't watch these movies, but I do read about them - I'd expect that since the MCU's big "Let's try something different" movie failed in "The Eternals", they're only going to lean more into mass-produced cookie-cutter fast food-type of things. They tried "Serious and Dramatic" and lo and behold, MCU fans do not want that. They want theme park rides.

The audience has shown that they're willing to forgive a whole lot, as long as the action is frenetic and there's plenty of fanservice. If anything I think it'll get worse before it gets better. Especially now that every single thing they do ends up being just a commercial for The Next Thing They Do.

Warhorse

05-07-2022, 10:09 PM

Yeah these idiots would rather waste time and money all for the sake of 'the message'.

The real problem is the over reliance on China. I don't care if America Chavez has 10 dads. If you're gonna throw that line in there tell China to lick your balls and swallow your shaft and keep the line in there internationally.

After watching the movie, it was kind of a waste of time. Sure, America had two moms, but it was the father figure, Stephen Strange, that steps up to the plate. And, considering this whole She-Marvel, it was a woman wanting to kill America and two men were the ones that were trying to save her.

Jester

05-07-2022, 11:02 PM

One thing that IS kind of neat is the clue they dropped about the Fantastic Four. Doctor Strange indicated the Fantastic Four were last trending in the 1960s... which suggests the rumors that the MCU Fantastic Four would start out in the past (like say, the 1960s) and end up time-traveling to the present are going to turn out to be true.
Strange asked if the Fantastic Four charted in the 60s. It was a joke. He thought the name was ridiculous and sounded like a 60s era band name.

Andrew NDB

05-08-2022, 01:48 AM

Gah. Just a gag, then? I take it back and that was lame, then.

Also, I just realized they changed Wanda's costume from the end of Wandavision. They covered her arms. Too male gazey, I guess.

AquaParade

05-08-2022, 03:58 AM

New costume looked better. Definitely her best look yet imo. Not really tripping on not being able to gaze at her arms, but that’s just me. And thank goodness the awkward titty-shots from the Whedon films are gone. It’s just awkward when you use a scene of your character breaking down, at the loss of her brother, to get a nice long view down her shirt. Tasteless and distracting.

Andrew NDB

05-08-2022, 04:12 AM

Not really tripping on not being able to gaze at her arms, but that’s just me.

How nice of you to make it clear you are absolved from male-gazing. Consider yourself in the clear. No need to say another word. You're good, man. No one will come after you now that you said that, promise.

But hey, Elizabeth Olsen is gorgeous. We are all aware. I'm not like looking to stare at extra skin just because. They gave her her "kind of" Scarlet Witch costume in Civil War and that was fine. After that she got her super conservative Scarlet Witch garb in Infinity War. Cool, fine. Even at that point myself (and apparently Elizabeth Olsen herself, according to interviews) ruled out even the possibility of her donning anything resembling the sort of classic Scarlet Witch costume based on what she understood of what TPTB had in mind for her. Which was also fine, I don't think myself or many others were counting on much more than that. But then they actually did it in Wandavision and it was a huge moment and it worked. Sure there's bare arms but they even went and removed all of the cleavage seen from the previous outfits in the MCU. Aesthetically it worked well. I guess you could call it a compromise of sorts of a reveal we never thought we'd get. But then they walked it back a little. I'm not fighting for the arms here, I'm just pointing out what seems like an obvious stupid sticky note from people that shouldn't be heeded but was.

"Multiverse of Madness" Wanda says, "Thanks for removing the cleavage. But I'll take those arms, too, please."

AquaParade

05-08-2022, 06:46 AM

“Male gazing” as in staring at a girls arms? Sure lol.

I don’t think it was a “studio note”. At least not in the typical sense. The producers of the MCU are also creatives. Who’s note would it be? The same producers who approved all the constant ass and boob shots? Not convinced.

Especially when this movie has stuff like Black Bolt having his head caved in and Xavier having his neck snapped.

And btw, what a send off that will be for Patrick Stewart if they don’t bring him back. I’m thinking we’ll see him again sooner than we think.

Sumac

05-08-2022, 07:00 AM

AquaParade

05-08-2022, 09:52 AM

I hope she read it.

Same here. She is totally hot and I totally would. Sorry you can’t jerk off to her boobs, while she cries about her dead bro, anymore though.

I actually think this is the best MCU project since Endgame or WandaVision, if I set aside No Way Home, which I have an extremely hard time judging, due to the fact that it’s a crappy film with the most heart I’ve ever seen.

Sumac

05-08-2022, 10:09 AM

Same here. She is totally hot and I totally would. Sorry you can’t jerk off to her boobs, while she cries about her dead bro, anymore though.

I actually think this is the best MCU project since Endgame or WandaVision, if I set aside No Way Home, which I have an extremely hard time judging, due to the fact that it’s a crappy film with the most heart I’ve ever seen.
OK, mate, you have weird fetishes, but fine, I won't judge. :lol:

AquaParade

05-08-2022, 10:14 AM

OK, mate, you have weird fetishes, but fine, I won't judge. :lol:

Lol I’m not the one who wants to get a peek down someone’s shirt while they are crying.

But yes I do.

neatoman

05-08-2022, 06:18 PM

I'm thinking the only reason Stewart is in this is because someone during the production thought "He's really iconic in the role, we get him in for one last time". Because this being an alternate universe, they can use the excuse that he isn't the "real" Xavier, so when it comes to the MCU proper version of Xavier they can cast someone much younger who can probably stick around for another 20-30 years.

So... Any nominations on who should be the new Xavier?

AquaParade

05-09-2022, 07:16 AM

I think Stewart will be back.

That’s because I don’t think he agreed to come back just to have his neck snapped in a cameo scene.

He had a great send off in Logan, so why sour it with an ending like this?

superstaff

05-09-2022, 07:33 AM

That’s because I don’t think he agreed to come back just to have his neck snapped in a cameo scene.

You must not know Stewart very well then.

Dude seems to like edgy stuff like this based on his interviews in the Star Trek TNG movies.

AquaParade

05-09-2022, 07:39 AM

You must not know Stewart very well then.

Dude seems to like edgy stuff like this based on his interviews in the Star Trek TNG movies.

Guess we will see which one of us knows Stewart better :p.

superstaff

05-09-2022, 07:42 AM

Guess we will see which one of us knows Stewart better :p.

He said he wanted his character to ride a ATV (because he himself likes them), and have more action scenes in TNG, and supported killing off characters in Nemesis. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he himself suggested how Xavier died in this.

Sumac

05-09-2022, 09:06 AM

Lol I’m not the one who wants to get a peek down someone’s shirt while they are crying.
Neither do I and I wouldn't even noticed it until you brought it to my attention.
So, good job failing, I guess? LOL.

Andrew NDB

05-09-2022, 07:01 PM

Ugh... maybe they're going to save the big cameos for the Captain 2 Moms movie or Disney+ show. Like, "You want to see your Fox X-Men and Deadpool and Spider-Men cameos? You better show up for the Captain 2 Moms movie, then."

AquaParade

05-09-2022, 07:10 PM

Neither do I and I wouldn't even noticed it until you brought it to my attention.
So, good job failing, I guess? LOL.

You replied to my post that explicitly mentioned it, with “I hope she read it” so I don’t know how it escaped your attention lol.

superstaff

05-09-2022, 07:57 PM

I'm legitimately curious here. So I want to make it clear that I am not trolling.

But what makes you guys care about the MCU nowadays? Is it the potential cameos? Is it just the 'superheroes punching villains' aspect?

Like I said in my recent comments here, I don't feel like the MCU is going anywhere anymore. It's been spinning its wheels, and feels like big budget, 2 hour commercials for a possible storyline rather than having actual stories and character arcs to care about. I don't think they are actually properly building towards anything, it's just a mish-mash of different ideas with no connective tissue at all. And I don't mind them doing single movies that don't connect to each other...... Problem is, they still seem to try to tease the audience into thinking they are building up something...and they're not. It's really just cameos, CGI, big action set pieces, and more cameos that are meant to 'lead to more'.

For example, various people think the next 'Big Threat' is Kang the Conqueror, others say it's Galactus, others say they're trying to do Secret Wars, others say Doctor Doom, and so on. Nobody seems to really know what the direction this franchise is taking...I don't think even Feige or the other MCU creatives know. It feels like they are just jumping around like ADHD-addled ten year olds who can't settle on what they really want.

I feel like the writing has gone downhill, and that's one of the biggest problems. It's not about creating likable characters, and escapist fare. It's just...fanwank. Like, literal fanwank. I miss the little emotional scenes that make you root for the characters, them being heroes, and saving people, being selfless. Maybe something more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSab01vhpoY

I felt like the Illuminati in MoM could have been compelling characters. They could have built them up to be a bigger threat, maybe had more complexity and conflict since they're (spoilers, blah blah). But nah, can't have that. The MCU just can't help itself with undercutting things with quips and jokes. I talked about this already, but it's really one of the biggest problems with these movies. I didn't consider the MCU movies to be 'you need to turn your brain off to enjoy it' type fare. ...But here we are. Sorry, it's just a huge disappointment to me, and I still feel like the only person who feels this way. So...again, what are people getting out of these movies at this point?

Leo656

05-09-2022, 08:24 PM

On another forum someone today said "Clearly they're laying the foundation for a Young Avengers movie". That's the very first time I've ever heard anyone posit that theory, so what seems clear to them is apparently not so clear to others.

As you said, everyone seems to have a theory, but they can't do ALL of them at once, so... what the f*ck ARE they doing? Which does kind of reinforce the "flinging sh*t to see what sticks" theory.

None of which affects me at all. Just calling what I see/hear.

Andrew NDB

05-09-2022, 08:26 PM

With Disney+ it seems clear all roads lead to Secret Invasion. That will be their big Avengers type extravaganza.

What am I looking forward to? More Daredevil. Bernthal's Punisher coming back in a big way. The coming of Galactus and what that will mean for the MCU. Also a proper Oscorp somehow and a proper Dr. Doom.

Leo656

05-09-2022, 08:51 PM

You really think Disney would promote The Punisher "in a big way"? I'm shocked they used him at all, considering he's pretty much the polar opposite of everything they claim to stand for and represent.

Like I can see them using him again for something but not with like a major push. Too "problematic".

The coming of Galactus and what that will mean for the MCU.

Watch it be something like Ragnarok, and have half the movie be people cracking jokes about how ridiculous Galactus looks. Bet you a pack of Lifesavers that's what happens.

TigerClaw

05-09-2022, 08:51 PM

I really enjoyed this movie, It had a lot of good moments, I especially love the fight between Doctor Strange and the evil version of him using musical notes.

Andrew NDB

05-11-2022, 01:02 PM

You really think Disney would promote The Punisher "in a big way"?

I don't know. What will be telling is how they handle the marketing and release of Deadpool 3.

I'm shocked they used him at all, considering he's pretty much the polar opposite of everything they claim to stand for and represent.

Like I can see them using him again for something but not with like a major push. Too "problematic".

Just give him his TV show back. Occasionally have him show up as a supporting cast member when the good guys need a little extra firepower. That's all I want.

Watch it be something like Ragnarok, and have half the movie be people cracking jokes about how ridiculous Galactus looks. Bet you a pack of Lifesavers that's what happens.

I'm sure there will be at least a little bit of that. But Galactus isn't like a fringe/6th rate character or villain that they can do this or that with. Feige knows Galactus is a top level thing.