Is it a mistake to make the Turtles look cute?

[neatoman]

So recently, I read Bodycount for the first time. Simon Bisley is an interesting artist to say the least, he pretty much drew Raph the same way he draws Lobo. Gigantic muscles, popping veins, bulging eyes, etc. It's a fairly grotesque design.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/145/368/19f.jpg

And as extreme as it is, I can't help but think Bisley was on to something, shouldn't the Turtles be kind of ugly? After all, they didn't look all that cute originally:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/W63_Y_QbXeVL3ReYYELxo0qnAg9GRTyxPSuJI_Q701hMaBBYP9 XrVQWVnF8WVm2G60rYHcHOlW3c=s1600
And the the original has changed his style, but I'd hardly say his more recent work makes them out to be any more attractive.
https://tmnt-ninjaturtles.com/assets/TMNT-86_Cover-B_rich.jpg

Which makes sense, why should they be appealing to look at? A major aspect is that they hide from society, so making them look freaky helps enforce that idea. Most of the freakier designs can trace back to the orignal one. Large defined muscles, gritting teeth, blank eyes etc. It just really works here.

And while there isn't exactly a shortage of artists who draw them with such features, I've noticed that some artists seems to prefer making them look more cute. Most notably the Fred Wolf Cartoon, Back to the Sewers, the First Nickelodeon cartoon etc. Which is understable, they're kids' cartoons, you don't want to scare away kids. It's just that whenever I look at the Nick Turtles, I can't help but feel these wide eyed, straight teethed, cankle footed, freckled and round faced creatures are simply too adorable to be rejected by humans. They look like Teddy Bears!
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-i9G5AEQ_cME/Wzqy9MZUsTI/AAAAAAAA7x0/KkCY5I-6IXchAXnGot3KGiIOb2R165UMQCLcBGAs/s1600/Lunch-Atop-Skyscraper-Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-Nickelodeon-Nick-Leonardo-Raphael-Donatello-And-Michelangelo-Eating-Pizza-On-Steel-Beam-TMNT.jpg

So, anybody agreeing with me?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Absolutely. I hate cute Ninja Turtles. Hate it so much.

Hell, even IDW went cute for the most part. :tgrumble:

[newfan]

Suppose it depends on the tone.
As for Nicks, I wouldn't say Teddy Bears, they looked the part in battle, you know white eyed, mean expression. I liked that switch, but yes they have a cuteness. I loved those designs but then I wouldn't expect to see that in a life action movie, just not too hideous either.

[Utrommaniac]

I feel like mileage of "cute" varies, but when the characters are meant to be in the 15-year-old range, so long as they don't look like they're 30 year old bodybuilders, I'm good.



But I mean...it's not like they've gone full anime bishie. When they do appear as looking cute, especially by Campbell and Santolouco designs...they just look their age to me.

[IndigoErth]

Nah, sorry, can't say I agree all that much. I like that they are a property given to variety in the art style, even if I don't find all designs appealing. Not every version needs to be cute, but I think those that are less so work better for comics than other media.

Personally, I think a little bit of cuteness works for them, it's part of their charm. Although I'm not saying go overboard with it. I don't want to see it stick with the Nick style of cute forever. I prefer a look that is a mix of kinda cute in a way AND badass. The Mirage and the third image are good examples. Though even the first really isn't that bad... there has been far less appealing designs. As far as cartoons go, 2003 is a good mix of it imo.

Not being cute might be a better visual cue that these guys aren't to be trifled with, but I like that some level of cuteness actually makes them a bit deceptive. Someone might not think these little guys are much in the way of asskickers...until they get a big surprise when they get said ass handed to them by these ninjas. Offers a pretty good message to, something like not judging a book by its cover.


Although... in deeper terms, some of it may be personal bias though as a female fan. Probably just normal that, yeah, I'd rather that male characters I'm a fan of be cuties to some degree.

Edit: Being stuck and stereotyped as a "kids" thing is probably what just hurts them most about being made too cute, as it presumably makes it harder for them to be taken more seriously and get those older series and whatnot many would love to see. But they're underdogs and I think someday someone will have the guts to take them more seriously like that, cute or not.

[plastroncafe]

I don't really care about the turtle's attractiveness so much as I do how well the linework flows.

These guys aren't attractive, but the linework really works for me.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/a3e905df0dbd786621cf178cc39bd440/tumblr_inline_owqqsyY8aN1t3idq6_540.png

I just prefer a more streamlined aesthetic.

[miru]

This also reminds me of the time John Kricfalusi took a mean swat at the 87 designs, without any constructive criticism. Or how Alopex got a lot cuter at the time she switched sides.

[neatoman]

This also reminds me of the time John Kricfalusi took a mean swat at the 87 designs, without any constructive criticism. Or how Alopex got a lot cuter at the time she switched sides.

Where did he say that? I know he has said everyone making cartoons in the 80's hated their job, but I've never heard him bring up anything specific.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't know if "mistake" is the right word. "Misguided" is more appropriate? There is nothing about their genesis or source material that denotes any kind of inherent cuteness.

Now, I don't have a problem with artists getting "cutesy" in their designs. I am just concerned about adults who get off on "cute" teenage boys (yes, even ninja turtle ones) and clamor left and right to see more material like the "Half Shell Heroes" as if they are starving for it.

Something is going on there.

[Papenbrook]

Now, I don't have a problem with artists getting "cutesy" in their designs. I am just concerned about adults who get off on "cute" teenage boys (yes, even ninja turtle ones) and clamor left and right to see more material like the "Half Shell Heroes" as if they are starving for it.

Something is going on there.


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2d/e1/7b/2de17bb0e346f67c0fcf6c6b40387b5f.png

To the OP:

No, there isn't anything particularly wrong with making the turtles cute (or at least, slightly adorable).

[John Pannozzi]

This also reminds me of the time John Kricfalusi took a mean swat at the 87 designs, without any constructive criticism. Or how Alopex got a lot cuter at the time she switched sides.

Here's what miru is talking about, FYI guys:

In this post on John K.'s blog, he included an image from the 87 series among various images of bland-looking 80s cartoons (http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2010/01/gandy-gooses-sandwich-trauma.html).

And in the comments section this other post (http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-was-most-depressing-80s-studio-1.html), the following conversation occurred:

I grew up on teenage mutant ninja turtles and because of it i taught myself how to draw because of it.

I'm still learning how to draw since i don't think i'm ready to learn construction just yet.

Every time i attempt construction i get frustrated and give up after a few failed attempts.

That's your problem. Those turtle-men didn't have any construction...or line of action, or silhouettes or any number of drawing principles.


They are just hobbled together out of random ill-designed bits of detail that don't hang together.

Make of John K.'s comments what you will....Please? (I'd like to hear any counter arguments).

But back on the topic...

..I don't think it's necessary a mistake to make the Turtles look cute.

I'd go as far to say the early Mirage TMNT were cute in a somewhat perverse way.

During the Outer Space arc, they looked quite cute at times:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OYe5Dzhc6Aw/U90ReBVDmWI/AAAAAAAANNo/5PSYJdxtV7Q/s1600/06-2.jpg

And Mark Martin's TMNT art, particularly in TMNT #16, always looked like a cuter variation on the early Eastman/Laird designs:

http://art.cafimg.com/images/Category_97768/subcat_154256/c6DMF0jK_2102141256281.jpg

EDIT: I generally think the Ugly Cute trope (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UglyCute) applies heavily to the Turtles (and many other characters in the franchise as a whole)

[Wildcat]

It just depends on the tone of the show/movie/comic/toys. It’s not a mistake or wrong to portray them cuter in certain things though.

I think it’s a mistake to think they must always look really aggressive. A combination of cute/appealing/tough is the best imo.

Some characters are tough looking but just have a natural cuteness to them that you really can not remove unless you purposely made them grotesque.

The Sonic characters are very much this and other video game characters. I think the TMNT fit into that too. Which is perfectly fine imo.

[Rooish]

It just depends on the tone of the show/movie/comic/toys. It’s not a mistake or wrong to portray them cuter in certain things though.

I think it’s a mistake to think they must always look really aggressive. A combination of cute/appealing/tough is the best imo.

Some characters are tough looking but just have a natural cuteness to them that you really can not remove unless you purposely made them grotesque.

The Sonic characters are very much this and other video game characters. I think the TMNT fit into that too. Which is perfectly fine imo.

I think the Turtles have always been cute. Not sure why the authors drew them as 4-5 feet tall. Lawson especially made them cute in early Mirage.

[Powder]

The best turtle designs are those that can do both. A great example being Henson's.

[Sabacooza]

Like it or not, people are attracted to attractive looking things. Having the TMNT look grotesque probably wouldn't work.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

There's a difference between not ugly and little kiddie cute. I think little kiddie cute is a huge mistake.

[Andrew NDB]

What do we want to call A.C. Farley's designs? Yeah. That. If it's a middle ground, it's perfect.

[oldmanwinters]

What do we want to call A.C. Farley's designs?

Answer:
Mastery

[Sabacooza]

There's a difference between not ugly and little kiddie cute. I think little kiddie cute is a huge mistake.Well, obviously unless you're doing a version for kids. I say they should also throw us adults a bone and do direct to Blu-ray animated movies with a more adult feel pretty much like what DC/WB does. There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.

And yes, I think Farley's style would be a perfect blend.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Well, obviously unless you're doing a version for kids. I say they should also throw us adults a bone and do direct to Blu-ray animated movies with a more adult feel pretty much like what DC/WB does. There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.

And yes, I think Farley's style would be a perfect blend.

Kids loved serious cartoons when I was growing up not terribly long ago. Real Adventures of Jonny Quest, Batman The Animated Series, TMNT 4Kids, The Batman... some iterations of Scooby Doo.

Kids don't need it to be all JigglyPuff and goo-goo eyes to like it.

[plastroncafe]

There's no sense catering just to one demographic which is idiotic.

This might just be my favorite quote right here.

And yes, I think Farley's style would be a perfect blend.

This is one of the things that made me extra sad we didn't a longer Mutant Wasteland story out of Ciro's Nicktoon.
I just love how much of Raph's design was cribbed from Farley.

[newfan]

To me having slightly cuteish turtles isn't a mistake especially given variation of the franchise, however if a cuter look was made/allowed to stick as a staple for the whole franchise then yes, I can see people seeing that as a mistake. I can't see that happening though.

[ABrown]

You know the more that I think about this, the less that I see it as being a problem. The Turtles can absolutely have a cute design without it affecting the quality of the show.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

To me having slightly cuteish versions isn't a mistake especially given variation of the franchise, however if a cuter look was made/allowed to stick as a staple for the whole franchise then yes, there would be problem, I couldn't see some of the comic fans being too happy about that. I can't see that happening though.

I would argue it's already become the trend.

[newfan]

I would argue it's already become the trend.

Outside the shows?

Well we're yet to see the next movie but I didn't find myself thinking 'awwh' when I saw the PDs LOL

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Outside the shows?

Well we're yet to see the next movie but I didn't find myself thinking 'awwh' when I saw the PDs LOL

That's true, regarding the PD films, but the last two cartoons have increasingly leaned into the cute factor, and although IDW says that there was no mandate from Nick to embrace a less Mirage appearance, I do find it interesting that most of the artists mimic that style to a certain extent, starting with Mateus.

[Sabacooza]

Sophie Campbell's work on IDW was where I first noticed the cute look and then Mateus mimicked that.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Sophie Campbell's work on IDW was where I first noticed the cute look and then Mateus mimicked that.

Except for the Leo micro-issue, which was much less cutesy, I don't think she did anything for IDW until after Mateus had done Secret History of the Foot Clan and City Fall. Other way around, at least with respect to publication.

[Shark_Blade]

https://i.imgur.com/gbubqMA.jpg

[Sabacooza]

Except for the Leo micro-issue, which was much less cutesy, I don't think she did anything for IDW until after Mateus had done Secret History of the Foot Clan and City Fall. Other way around, at least with respect to publication.Yeah, and Mateus's stuff wasn't cutesy then so I fail to see the point. I distinctly remember the farmhouse issues looking very cute and then the turtles in time arc where they meet Pepperoni is even cuter yet. Then Mateus did the cover for the one free comic book day issue with all 4 headshots on the cover where he started to adopt Sophie's cutesy rounded style. I very much remember people complaining about that on here. I suppose it all depends on what you view as cute but Sophie's stuff I would consider to be very cutesy after the Leo micro.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Yeah, and Mateus's stuff wasn't cutesy then so I fail to see the point. I distinctly remember the farmhouse issues looking very cute and then the turtles in time arc where they meet Pepperoni is even cuter yet. Then Mateus did the cover for the one free comic book day issue with all 4 headshots on the cover where he started to adopt Sophie's cutesy rounded style. I very much remember people complaining about that on here. I suppose it all depends on what you view as cute but Sophie's stuff I would consider to be very cutesy after the Leo micro.

I disagree. He (Mateus) embraced the Nick aesthetic with Mikey having the short little bandanna tails and freckles, Don having the gap tooth. He did that before Sophie, though yes, Sophie went full 100% cute.

[Dejablue]

Cute turtles are never a mistake!

Unless that cuteness tonally clashes drastically with the mood of the story.

In which case it's hilarious.

I always thought the 80s designs were cute. I've even considered them cute in Mirage.
Well "cute" may not be the right word. But I didn't find their designs repulsive most of the time. Most designs, if I don't find cute, I at least find appealing. Like in my opinion Sabacooza's avatar is actually kind of cute.

[Metalwolf]

Maybe more 'realistic' would be better? Would people go for that design?

[IndigoErth]

If we're talking more animalistic in look... a firm no thank you. I find it interesting sometimes as fan art, but that's it.

I'm sure there are those who'd be all for it, but I personally prefer they side heavily with being turtle people vs just talking animals. (Decreasing their personhood, as being more animalistic would probably do, prob would not help the stigma against them either.)


Although PD went for more realistic in a more people-ish way, but we see how that turned out. lol But they did hit on more realism while being less cute, right? Annnnd... people hated it.

[newfan]

I suppose in terms of realistic, I guess the extent depends how much the mutation is supposed to have altered them.

[Dejablue]

Not many peps like the PD designs but a few do. I'm surprisingly one of them. Don't consider them my favorite by far tho but an interesting take at "realistic". I think they should be turtle-people as well.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I'm too used with the TMNT to think of them as too cute or horrible.

[IndigoErth]

I suppose in terms of realistic, I guess the extent depends how much the mutation is supposed to have altered them.
Now that it seems to have become the thing to stop making them all identical, it could be interesting to someday explore slight variations in mutation effects, physically and mentally, due to varying degrees of exposure and/or the randomness of how it screws with their DNA.

[pferreira]

Nothing wrong with cute animation. They should still look like mutants but definitely the TMNT shouldn't look grotesque.

Where did he say that? I know he has said everyone making cartoons in the 80's hated their job, but I've never heard him bring up anything specific.That's a pretty big generalisation!

In this post on John K.'s blog, he included an image from the 87 series among various images of bland-looking 80s cartoons (http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2010/01/gandy-gooses-sandwich-trauma.html).Can't agree with him. The examples he gives along with the TMNT one are animation styles I really like but also have their own positives. Mighty Mouse looked far too rigid in comparison. But it's taste and his opinion isn't decidedly the right answer. For all we know he probably thinks Cal Arts style animation is terrific.

[Dejablue]

Lol so he's saying cartoons are bad if the characters don't look like they're about to melt out of their outlines every half second?

That MM cartoon was weird but I actually kind of liked what little I saw of it.

[neatoman]

Lol so he's saying cartoons are bad if the characters don't look like they're about to melt out of their outlines every half second?

That MM cartoon was weird but I actually kind of liked what little I saw of it.

He's referring to the dynamics of movement and expression. The problem he has with cartoons like the Fred Wolf TMNT is that they're animated in a very stale, non-expressive way.

Here's a clip from his original creation, Ren and Stimpy:
0bme0JpXQUg

Here's one from his mentor, Ralph Bakshi:
otZL-EfgrG4

And finally, this Goofy short from before the Dark Age he talks about:
L0JnM4MvhVc

See how expressive the characters are? How easy it is to tell what they're feeling just by looking at them? How fluid their movements are?

One the examples he brings up is Jabberjaw, which looks like this:
-AJH5aySRn4
z94VH_PBdmI

Notice how little they move by comparison and how limited their expressions are? That's what he's talking about.

[pferreira]

Lol so he's saying cartoons are bad if the characters don't look like they're about to melt out of their outlines every half second?

That MM cartoon was weird but I actually kind of liked what little I saw of it.Yeah I mean it's really a matter of taste in style. Not every cartoon needs to have exaggerated movement or sharp lines although that seems to be popular at the moment which is why I pointed to the Cal Arts type.

[Ninjinister]

When the f**k have the turtles ever looked "cute"?

[Powder]

When the f**k have the turtles ever looked "cute"?

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-2012-series/images/c/cc/Cute_Donatello.gif/revision/latest?cb=20161213170704

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/p__/images/0/01/Michaelangelo_%281990%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140918004414&path-prefix=protagonist

Sophie Campbell's TMNT are a great example, but they've had their moments of being cute in Mirage & the OT 'n stuff.

[IndigoErth]

When? They've been cute to some degree a lot of the time, but "eye of the beholder" and all that, I guess.

Perfect use of Mikey pointing at himself. :D

[bwwd]

In my opinion they should not interfere with estabilished look of the turtles , they can show they young etx but differences like 3 toes are too much and logically does not add up so older fans will distance themselves because of some design differences like this.
I remember being a kid i was excited watching movies about kids fighting grownups like electric knight with ernie reyes or 3 ninjas and similar stuff so i undestand whty want to make it exciting for kids and make small version of turtles, maybe if we would had these in 80's (smaller turtles) then it would be easier to accept but now it feels like nickelodeon is seatching for ways to make tmnt attractive and trying too damn hard with these stylized versions.
Changing april to black is just dumb, thats not april, just give her different name and keep her skin colour cause her skin is not the problem, changing tooooo damn much while calling them the same names is the problem.Its like they want to mixthem into different peoperty to please kids.
When tmnt came out in 80s they did not try to please us, they just were aware what is non kid friendly in cartoons and other than that they kept turtles basically almost full grown, not really teenagers cause all the muscles but they definitely were not kids looking.
I really liked mirage comics when i was akid, these were serious turtles , it was something new to see turtles bleed and cut enemies with weapons here and there on comic panels so each version has its own qualities that will attract kids anyway.