String of suspicious packages addressed to prominent Democrats and CNN

[Autbot_Benz]

Two "suspicious packages" addressed to former President Obama and Hillary Clinton were intercepted by the Secret Service.
A package sent to CNN's offices in New York City was addressed to former CIA Director John Brennan.
The package addressed to Brennan contained what appeared to be a live explosive device, and an envelope containing white powder.
A package addressed to former Attorney General Eric Holder was instead delivered to the return address, the Florida office of former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz.
A suspicious package addressed to Democratic Rep. Maxine Waters was intercepted at a House mail facility, two sources told CBS News.
At least two packages included crude but functional low-ordnance explosive devices, a law enforcement official said.

A sprawling investigation unfolded Wednesday as authorities scrambled to respond to a series of suspicious packages. Two packages were addressed to the homes of two former presidents and another was addressed to former CIA Director John Brennan at the New York City offices of CNN, prompting CNN's bureau and the Time Warner Center to evacuate.

The Secret Service said Wednesday morning it had intercepted the packages addressed to former President Obama's home in Washington and Bill and Hillary Clinton's residence in Westchester County, New York.

Another package was originally addressed to former Attorney General Eric Holder, but was sent to the wrong address and returned to office of former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

Crude but functional low-ordnance explosive devices found in at least two of the packages consisted of a pipe, wires and black powder, a law enforcement official told CBS News senior investigative producer Pat Milton.



https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/suspicious-packages-pipe-bomb-clinton-obama-cnn-nyc-wasserman-schultz-office-live-updates/

[Andrew NDB]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist... but c'mon. This does seem a little bit... funnily timed.

Meanwhile, look how fast the letters with ricin sent to the White House a couple weeks ago got swept under the rug.

[IndigoErth]

Two "suspicious packages"...
"The liberals are at it again!! Oh wait."

(Or however the liberal-hater, conspiracy-lover loons would put it.)



Almost anything can probably be considered funnily timed in some way if a person wants to see it that way...

I mean, what, if the weather is bad on election day will some conspiracy sorts start crying about an attempt at "voter suppression"? I mean, naturally someone on the opposition will have seeded the clouds to cause bad weather in order to discourage people from bothering to get out and vote. It would be too timely for it not to be the case.

[Andrew NDB]

Packages are sent to these democrats, even Hillary Clinton (just because), none of them blow up, the news media runs wild about it (whereas it did NOT with the ricin letters to White House republicans)... all of it painting a picture that republicans are crazed loons. Right as we hit mid-term voting this week.

Think about it. If the sender was really a republican pissed off at the left... why wouldn't they wait until a day after the mid-terms? There really is only logical rationale if it's somebody from the left (they don't want to ACTUALLY hurt Obama and Hillary, etc., they just want to make it look like they are while framing the right).

[IndigoErth]

Logical? There is nothing logical to think that an individual who sides with those people would send "at least two packages [that] included crude but functional low-ordnance explosive devices" and no doubt more.

That is definitely pretty irrational to assume someone would target people they side with to harm them just to make someone else look bad. Wtf. Were it ever actually the case in any such event, I don't care which way it's going or what people on which side are targeted...anyone doing that is a legit insane person no party should ever be accountable for.

That said, obviously the whole of the Right shouldn't be accountable for people like this either, no normal person of any party actually does such a thing. BUT. There are still those on the Right who need to own up to their provoking rhetoric that does inspire people to commit such acts.


It's only as "logical" as to believe that a huge (and apparently crazy) Trump supporter would send him a bomb (and functional at that), just to make "leftists" look bad. No way would I believe that either, that is just absurd. Outside of a very small minority who could need to be in a psychiatric institution, that just isn't a thing that otherwise happens. If someone tried to suggest a Trump/republican supporter sent the ricin to the White House, I wouldn't believe that for a moment.

[Prowler]

Most likely this was done by a(or maybe a small group) of right wing extremists.

Tbh, Trump's speech in the last 2-3 years didn't do any favours to the current political and social climate. Calling the press "enemy of the people" and your political opponents "evil" isn't really a very sensible thing to do. It's like Trump has encouraged the radicals to break off the leash. Lately, the type of loud mouth populists have been getting elected and popular around the world.

Many people seem to be siding more with the radicals and having more extremists views nowadays.

I wonder what the end of this current century will look like.

[Andrew NDB]

Most likely this was done by a(or maybe a small group) of right wing extremists.

If so, it would literally have to be "right wing extremists... with no sense of logic or reason" (which is definitely possible). Because if they had logic or reason it's not hard to figure out that attacks of this nature by members of "the right" on democrats right during the mid-term elections would only serve to galvanize the voters of the left. That's it. It would serve no other purpose, and that purpose is contrary to what they want to see.

I mean, all the bomber(s) had to do was wait a little over a week until the mid-terms were over before striking... then it wouldn't matter. They weren't even targeting people running for anything.

[Prowler]

If so, it would literally have to be "right wing extremists... with no sense of logic or reason" (which is definitely possible). Because if they had logic or reason it's not hard to figure out that attacks of this nature by members of "the right" on democrats right during the mid-term elections would only serve to galvanize the voters of the left. That's it. It would serve no other purpose, and that purpose is contrary to what they want to see.

I mean, all the bomber(s) had to do was wait a little over a week until the mid-terms were over before striking... then it wouldn't matter. They weren't even targeting people running for anything.

I understand your point, but some people aren't very bright, so it might have just been a not so smart radical doing this.

Anyway, let's wait until the culprits are found out. Until then we can only speculate.

[IndigoErth]

I mean, all the bomber(s) had to do was wait a little over a week until the mid-terms were over before striking... then it wouldn't matter. They weren't even targeting people running for anything.
Entirely possible that the elections weren't even much of a factor for this wacko, esp with something like this that probably took some planning for a while. Maybe it was a factor. Or maybe their plan was simply ready for that next step of being mailed out, pre-elections be damned.

[Vegita-San]

the democrats are so insane, they sabotaged their own chances of winning the election 2 years ago..and have been looking for some magic 'short cut' to get the guy in office, out of office, ever since.

it would not surprise me in the LEAST if they used peopel's over emotional histeria with some 'planeted' bombs. After all, we only have the media's claim that they where functional. and we know how reliable they are.

Of course, if this could be proven as a false claim to drum up sympathy and fear during an election month.......the dems will never win again. I think they are crazy and desperate enough to give it a try though.

[Prowler]

the democrats are so insane, they sabotaged their own chances of winning the election 2 years ago..and have been looking for some magic 'short cut' to get the guy in office, out of office, ever since.

it would not surprise me in the LEAST if they used peopel's over emotional histeria with some 'planeted' bombs. After all, we only have the media's claim that they where functional. and we know how reliable they are.

Of course, if this could be proven as a false claim to drum up sympathy and fear during an election month.......the dems will never win again. I think they are crazy and desperate enough to give it a try though.

Never again? USA is literally a two party country. Who is gonna replace the blue ones?

[Andrew NDB]

Well, even your average democrat/republican lemming generally knows enough to know that control of the house is riding on this mid-term election. It's a pretty big deal.

The way this could have shaken out, the bomber could have:

A) Sent the bombs out weeks/months before mid-term elections RESULT: Little to no negative republican effect on mid-term elections.

B) Sent the bombs out days/weeks/months after mid-term elections RESULT: Zero republican effect on mid-term elections. Because they've already happened.

C) Sent the bombs out during the mid-term elections RESULT: Maximum negative republican effect on mid-term elections.

It just strikes me as really odd that the bomber -- if a staunch republican -- would choose C. We are now left to assume, if we're to assume it's a "right wing whacko," that's it's one that knows how to rig up mailable bombs yet doesn't possess any higher level reasoning. Which I admit again, is entirely possible. I'm just not entirely sure it's the likeliest of all possible scenarios.

[Vegita-San]

I didn't even think of a conspiracy angle until I saw this post.

My previous thought was that it WAS some Trump nut supporter who sent them out. But, what would THEY have to gain at this point? trump is on a high point at this stage. more and more people are starting to walk away from the other side as it gets crazier and crazier....

but then again, to even consider doing something like that means you are too far gone into crazy to begin with, so reasoning might not be a factor!

[Prowler]

The fact that something like this has happened in a democratic nation(or "land of da freez!" as they call it) is kind of concerning, I'd say. Yet people prefer to be pointing fingers and cause even further division.

A lot of people in USA seem tobe afraid of people from certain parts of the globe, yet it seems like the biggest problems are coming from their own countrymen. Quite ironic, I guess.

[IndigoErth]

Very, very ironic.

Claims of "Muslims," without evidence and indirectly suggesting terrorists of course, among that caravan of people coming to 'get' us? Sure. (Scare up those votes the best you can!)

Actual bombs attempted to be sent to Trump opponents, including former presidents? Somehow not a terroristic act. :tconfuse:

[Prowler]

Very, very ironic.

Claims of "Muslims," without evidence and indirectly suggesting terrorists of course, among that caravan of people coming to 'get' us? Sure. (Scare up those votes the best you can!)

Actual bombs attempted to be sent to Trump opponents, including former presidents? Somehow not a terroristic act. :tconfuse:

Plus, usually Muslim radicals don't send explosives through mail. They commit suicide bombings. And they usually don't aim for top politicians either, but try to kill civilians. I think it's unlikely a radical Muslim did this. Wouldn't surprise me if ISIS eventually claims this one as well, though :lol:. Remember when they claimed the Las Vegas shooting at a concert? :lol:

[IndigoErth]

What kind of world are we living in now? Even the terrorists are lazy, yet still opportunistic in it. To the point that they just let Trump do the work of instilling fear of them. (And oddly share a need with Trump to self aggrandize themselves.)



Yeah... supposedly there was also shrapnel in these bombs with a timer hooked up to a detonator. That is a bit too real for any supposed "false flag" nonsense that people want it to be.

[Voltron]

So let me get this straight:

You think that a bunch of tree-hugging, gun-loathing, war-protesting "libtard" snowflakes sent fake bombs to drum up support for their cause? And the thing that seals the deal is that the ivory-tower, Harvard elitist Left is too stupid to plan this out better?

Meanwhile, there's a list as long as my arm of Right wing terrorists being convicted of mass murdering Americans on US soil? The same geniuses who think that education is stupid and burn books that offend them?

And that's where your brain goes?

I mean, I don't even know where to start. The obvious suspect would be Right wing extremists.

It could be Left wing extremists, but those guys are usually too busy throwing red paint on fur coats or making snarky protest signs to do anything of serious consequence.

[Leo656]

I'm gonna start sending "suspicious packages" to people who use the word "funnily". STOP IT.
----------------------

This is all theater. If anyone had the means to send Hillary Clinton a bomb, they'd have done it forever ago. Plus, I should only BE so lucky. But I'm not. I haven't been anywhere near good enough this year, to be rewarded as such.

I think it's hilarious that so many people think there's ZERO chance it was staged to drum up sympathy. Sure, it's the more far-fetched theory, but it's absolutely plausible.

The first thing they teach you in the wrestling business is, "EVERYTHING is a work (con) until conclusively proven otherwise." The second (or third) thing is, "Wrestling and politics are exactly the same."

So. Nothing blew up, I'm calling it a work. Sorry. Anybody who'd waste a weekend making pipe bombs would take a minute to make sure they were functional before wasting money on postage.

[Andrew NDB]

True. I'm very interested to know more information about the bombs. Like, why didn't they go off? Were they damaged, and if so, was it damage definitively caused by transit or ambiguous or definitively damage intentionally caused to them? What would have triggered the bombs? Was even one of them close to actually being triggered, like, had they not been flagged or whatnot (which one would assume they would be anyway)? I get that some of these questions may never be answered, but I hope a lot of that is disclosed in the days to come.

Here is a meme I already see in my FB feed right now:

"All jokes and memes aside...

Someone just tried to MURDER
all of President Trump's
political opponents today.

All of them.

Let that sink in."

It's already runnin' wild, BROTHER!

[Prowler]

It is pretty strange how none went off, indeed... but wouldn't something like this be very hard to cover up? That's quite a risk they're running. But I guess politicians are capable of everything. I mean, we're talking about people who lie a lot, including on their resume. So many times politicians in Europe have been caught lying about having a bachelors degree or a masters...

[Vegita-San]

anyone remember the kelly marie tran debacle?

No? All that out rage with zero proof any of it ever happened?
That lasted just long enough to distract people from the bad star wars news?
and then quickly went away?

If this is a phony bomb situation.....Have the networks interviewed the 'hero' that carried the bomb away, yet? have they shown images of said bomb? Will they stick with the story until a resolution, one way or another, is found? or will it quietly be forgotten about?

this could all be a VERY bold sympathy ploy.

[Vegita-San]

was listening to the morning radio news updates... apparently one of the news networks is looking into the fact that these where really 'fake' bombs made to look real.

people's own over emotional reactions are being weaponized against them for short term gain.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Either wouldn't surprise me. We have plenty of devious scumbags and flaming idiots to go around these days.

[Autbot_Benz]

Joe Biden and Robert De-niro got packages also today


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/package-found-robert-de-niro-s-office-nyc-matches-other-n924251

[Andrew NDB]

So like 10 bomb packages now, and 100% of them didn't go off? And there's nothing definitive being communicated as to whether or not they could have even gone off?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

So like 10 bomb packages now, and 100% of them didn't go off? And there's nothing definitive being communicated as to whether or not they could have even gone off?

Were they even meant to go off? Or were they just for scares?

[IndigoErth]

So none have gone off, thank god. But until the authorities are able to really get a good enough look at them and decide I don't know why people just want to jump to assuming the whole thing is fake and staged.

Would those people also assume that a terrorist who decides not to participate in an attack or was held up and missed the boat, er, plane, is somehow not a terrorist after all? Intent still matters.

People have made fakes before, I think(?), but these are an awful lot of work just to cause a scare... Why would you even put shrapnel in them if people are just supposed to panic upon seeing a fake bomb? Possible I suppose that someone is just that crazy to go all out. Or maybe people have just been lucky and/or they were meant to go off but the person failed at the last step in bomb making... I imagine it isn't easy for most people to actually test one to see if they built it right.


That said, the two meant for Biden were at separate post offices in my area. Fantastic. :ohwell: At least neither were ones I use nor the one I visit once a month for my job. Was supposed to visit that one this week, but it got moved to last week... kinda glad.

[Andrew NDB]

Why would you even put shrapnel in them if people are just supposed to panic upon seeing a fake bomb?

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Frlv.zcache.com.au%2Fmidterm_elect ions_2018_take_back_congress_napkin-rd0f938c5074447f3a7c83585dea9f04c_2cf00_8byvr_324. jpg&f=1

[BartAllen]

I just heard that the bombs look like they didn't have the requisite pieces to EVER go off. That they were only designed to LOOK like they were going to go off.

This is a stunt. I won't say it's a libtard stunt, but it's damn weird.

The timing, TWO WEEKS, before midterms is another weird happenstance.

Also, where was this level of outrage back when Ricin (sp?) was delivered to prominent Republican leaders/family members.

[Andrew NDB]

Meanwhile, look how fast the letters with ricin sent to the White House a couple weeks ago got swept under the rug.

Also, where was this level of outrage back when Ricin (sp?) was delivered to prominent Republican leaders/family members.

That's exactly what I said.

[Powder]

I don't buy it whatsoever.

[Andrew NDB]

the bombs look like they didn't have the requisite pieces to EVER go off. That they were only designed to LOOK like they were going to go off.

OK, so armed with this new information, let's return to the "it's a right wing whacko" hypothetical situation.

A) Send the bombs out weeks/months before mid-term elections RESULT: Little to no negative republican effect on mid-term elections.

B) Send the bombs out days/weeks/months after mid-term elections RESULT: Zero negative republican effect on mid-term elections. Because they've already happened.

C) Send the bombs out during the mid-term elections RESULT: Maximum negative republican effect on mid-term elections.

So this supposed right wing whacko bomber chose C out of all of those... AND designed them not to actually go off?

That doesn't add up at all. Not at all.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

OK, so armed with this new information, let's return to the "it's a right wing whacko" hypothetical situation.

A) Send the bombs out weeks/months before mid-term elections RESULT: Little to no negative republican effect on mid-term elections.

B) Send the bombs out days/weeks/months after mid-term elections RESULT: Zero negative republican effect on mid-term elections. Because they've already happened.

C) Send the bombs out during the mid-term elections RESULT: Maximum negative republican effect on mid-term elections.

So this supposed right wing whacko bomber chose C out of all of those... AND designed them not to actually go off?

That doesn't add up at all. Not at all.

If somebody, an actual individual, ever gets linked to this, boy oh boy, is he gonna end up causing a load of bad PR for the Democrats.

Provided this theory is true, which... does make a lot of sense.

I'd be interested to find out what effect, if any, this has on people's votes. I can't imagine it actually having much impact at all. People don't change their minds.

[IndigoErth]

I just heard that the bombs look like they didn't have the requisite pieces to EVER go off.
And what source is that from?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

If somebody, an actual individual, ever gets linked to this, boy oh boy, is he gonna end up causing a load of bad PR for the Democrats.

Provided this theory is true, which... does make a lot of sense.

I'd be interested to find out what effect, if any, this has on people's votes. I can't imagine it actually having much impact at all. People don't change their minds.


Even if it were "true", and he is found to be a "left-wing nut-job", as some speculate, WHO do you REALLY think could have put him/her/them up to it? If it was an individual doing it completely alone, they clearly didn't think through the repercussions of getting caught for their "side", and if they were under outside influence, well.... Only ONE side would ultimately benefit from that. The one who egged the stooge into a "false sympathy" ploy in the FIRST place!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Even if it were "true", and he is found to be a "left-wing nut-job", as some speculate, WHO do you REALLY think could have put him/her/them up to it? If it was an individual doing it completely alone, they clearly didn't think through the repercussions of getting caught for their "side", and if they were under outside influence, well.... Only ONE side would ultimately benefit from that. The one who egged the stooge into a "false sympathy" ploy in the FIRST place!

Both sides are cynical, devious, and scummy enough to do it. I have no trouble believing either one. No skin off my nose either way.

[Andrew NDB]

And what source is that from?

Here's one... from CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/25/politics/bombs-suspicious-packages-what-we-know/index.html

"Whoever is doing this is just trying to elicit a fear or disrupt something"

and

"There are a multitude of more sophisticated methodologies that would have worked if they really wanted this to work."

[Candy Kappa]

I just heard that the bombs look like they didn't have the requisite pieces to EVER go off. That they were only designed to LOOK like they were going to go off.

This is a stunt. I won't say it's a libtard stunt, but it's damn weird.

The timing, TWO WEEKS, before midterms is another weird happenstance.

Also, where was this level of outrage back when Ricin (sp?) was delivered to prominent Republican leaders/family members.

Here's one... from CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/25/politics/bombs-suspicious-packages-what-we-know/index.html

"Whoever is doing this is just trying to elicit a fear or disrupt something"

and

"There are a multitude of more sophisticated methodologies that would have worked if they really wanted this to work."

"An initial examination shows they are rudimentary but functional, and have similar construction. At least one contained projectiles, including shards of glass, a law enforcement official told CNN. The bombs were unstable and could have been set off by handling, sources said."

[Leo656]

I don't know why people just want to jump to assuming the whole thing is fake and staged.


Because as the saying goes, "Don't try and work a worker, brotherrrrrrrrr!" :tcool:

(The "Brother" part is mandatory, I don't make the rules.)

[IMJ]

I'm not a conspiracy theorist... but c'mon. This does seem a little bit... funnily timed.

Meanwhile, look how fast the letters with ricin sent to the White House a couple weeks ago got swept under the rug.

Exactly. This fits the left model of operating more than the rights.

If I had to guess, this "event" is an another example of leftist manipulation to paint the growing population of right-leaning America in as negative a light as possible through manipulation of the "idiot vote" (that is to say, people who would hear a story like this and have it galvanize their simplistic views of "right vs left" into a voting model for the left based on their assumption that "people on the right must have done this! I knew all along that people who don't vote Democrat were evil and now here's the proof!", which is of course just ludicrous).

Basically liberals in today's world = tantrum throwing manipulators while libertarians and conservatives are trying to enjoy life and be part of the current growth politics that favor the nation.

It just doesn't make any sense for anyone on top right now (e.g. Republicans) to do this basically at all, let alone during an election period. My guess is that the idiot who is mailing things to leftist leaders is actually a leftist manipulator trying to employ manipulative political psychology - again.

[Autbot_Benz]

Exactly. This fits the left model of operating more than the rights.

If I had to guess, this "event" is an another example of leftist manipulation to paint the growing population of right-leaning America in as negative a light as possible through manipulation of the "idiot vote" (that is to say, people who would hear a story like this and have it galvanize their simplistic views of "right vs left" into a voting model for the left based on their assumption that "people on the right must have done this! I knew all along that people who don't vote Democrat were evil and now here's the proof!", which is of course just ludicrous).

Basically liberals in today's world = tantrum throwing manipulators while libertarians and conservatives are trying to enjoy life and be part of the current growth politics that favor the nation.



It just doesn't make any sense for anyone on top right now (e.g. Republicans) to do this basically at all, let alone during an election period. My guess is that the idiot who is mailing things to leftist leaders is actually a leftist manipulator trying to employ manipulative political psychology - again.

What a load of crap . Conservatives don't care about the stuff that favor the nation. All they care about is lining their own pockets and screwing the middle class people/other races/other genders.

but ya its the evil left. The right does nothing wrong and is perfect in every way :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

[Prowler]

What a load of crap . Conservatives don't care about the stuff that favor the nation. All they care about is lining their own pockets and screwing the middle class people/other races/other genders.

but ya its the evil left. The right does nothing wrong and is perfect in every way :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

The left also thinks they're perfect and do nothing wrong themselves and that the right is evil. It goes both ways, really.

I'm sure left wing politicians also only care about lining their own pockets as well. That's like 90% of politicians... and I'm being generous optimistic here.

Neither side has moral superiority over the other at this point.

[Candy Kappa]

Exactly. This fits the left model of operating more than the rights.

Like assulting a journalist?

Oh wait that was a republican congressman.

[Autbot_Benz]

liberals in today's world = tantrum throwing manipulators

Like our current president who throws a twitter tantrum whenever someone posts something bad about him or calls everything fake news and witch hunt :lol:

[Andrew NDB]

Exactly. This fits the left model of operating more than the rights.

If I had to guess, this "event" is an another example of leftist manipulation to paint the growing population of right-leaning America in as negative a light as possible through manipulation of the "idiot vote" (that is to say, people who would hear a story like this and have it galvanize their simplistic views of "right vs left" into a voting model for the left based on their assumption that "people on the right must have done this! I knew all along that people who don't vote Democrat were evil and now here's the proof!", which is of course just ludicrous).

Basically liberals in today's world = tantrum throwing manipulators while libertarians and conservatives are trying to enjoy life and be part of the current growth politics that favor the nation.

It just doesn't make any sense for anyone on top right now (e.g. Republicans) to do this basically at all, let alone during an election period. My guess is that the idiot who is mailing things to leftist leaders is actually a leftist manipulator trying to employ manipulative political psychology - again.

Yeah, my gut tends to lean toward this being one guy, or a small group, not anything actually organized at a higher level. But nothing would really surprise me.

[IndigoErth]

Basically liberals...
This kind of crap makes me want to sit here and laugh my ass off if it turns out it is indeed a conservative/Trump supporter. Were it not for the fact that this isn't funny, period. And would not be no matter who was targeted.

If it is, many conservatives will probably just try to pull a 'no true Scotsmen' anyhow.

[Leo656]

I laugh at all of it. When you completely remove yourself from having any direct involvement in this stuff other than to observe/report - with NO emotional investment whatsoever - it's all so f*cking hysterical.

Regardless... if something ever actually happens and suddenly a bunch of 1%-ers go up in smoke - Red or Blue - you won't catch me shedding any crocodile tears. That's the risk they assumed when they signed up for the job of "Making rules everyone but them has to follow", and "Giving themselves more money whenever they feel like it without any justification."

Brigands and thieves, all. F*ck 'em.

[sdp]

lol this place is like infowars now, no better than when Plastron was here.

[Prowler]

lol this place is like infowars now, no better than when Plastron was here.

Pretty much every internet forum/community is like that since 2014 or so. It mirrors our current society and political climate, I guess.

[BartAllen]

"An initial examination shows they are rudimentary but functional, and have similar construction. At least one contained projectiles, including shards of glass, a law enforcement official told CNN. The bombs were unstable and could have been set off by handling, sources said."

Strange then that NOT A SINGLE ONE ACTUALLY WENT OFF.

Why would anyone put a timer on a bomb if they weren't aware of when it would be delivered?

I did hear on a political station, and this is speculation on the host's part, that they think this is a disgruntled Bernie bro. That the return address being Wasserman-schultz (she is the one who screwed Bernie) was an unintended message he/she showed.

[Candy Kappa]

lol this place is like infowars now, no better than when Plastron was here.

Could they be the mystical gay frog bombs?

Strange then that NOT A SINGLE ONE ACTUALLY WENT OFF.

Why is that strange when most if not all who got a bomb package have security people checking their mail.

but I guess you and other posters in this thread also believe Hilary runs a pedo sex ring in pizza restaurant basements, or that the earth is flat.

[Prowler]

Could they be the mystical gay frog bombs?



Why is that strange when most if not all who got a bomb package have security people checking their mail.

but I guess you and other posters in this thread also believe Hilary runs a pedo sex ring in pizza restaurant basements, or that the earth is flat.

Those are quite strange assumptions to make. I don't think most people bought into the pizzagate conspiracy. And since when are there Flat Earthers in here?! I can't speak for some of those users, but I'm pretty sure neither Leo nor Andrew are Flat Earthers. And I'd be surprised if BartAllen or IMJ were.

[IndigoErth]

I don't think most people bought into the pizzagate conspiracy.
Never underestimate the stupidity and conspiracy obsession of U.S. Americans in the 21st century...

After all, maybe not any forum members (or are there?), but it's people in this country that are re-embracing the flat Earth thing. At what point do our allies decide to take pity and just euthanize this country for its own good...? :ohwell:



Two more bombs. Aside from the potential danger to people, because we just can't know, how much is this even costing us in tax dollars at this point?

Although I kinda worry that maybe it's a bunch of duds to make people become apathetic about it before a legit one or more show up somewhere and actually hurt someone. Either that or some copy cat sees this person as a failure and creates ones that do go off.


Side note, my mom said one of my cousins (albeit one I don't know that much) presently works at one of the post offices where one for Biden was found. :tmad::tsad: Glad they were found and removed without incident, but worry that this nonsense could just continue or turn out worse next time. A little creeped out about needing to visit the one I hit for my job again in a few weeks. It's small and doubt it would ever end up involved, in this or some other similar incident, but god only knows.



edit:

The NYT (edit - and others) just put up an article claiming a man in his 50s in FL has been arrested in connection to it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/26/nyregion/cnn-cory-booker-pipe-bombs-sent.html


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2018/oct/26/pipe-bombs-latest-live-news-updates-arrest-florida

The suspect is a man in his 50s with an address in Aventura, Florida, according to CNN.

He was arrested outside the AutoZone in Plantation, Florida, where authorities were also preparing to tow a white van.

The man has a criminal history and once lived in New York, CNN reported.


https://twitter.com/EdKrassen/status/1055841448560599042/photo/1
@EdKrassen
This is the van of the bomb suspect, which is being towed from an Autozone in Plantation Florida. What does everyone make of the decals on these windows?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqcaHtRV4AARVxQ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqcaJW0U4AAaL2F.jpg
I won't even say it.

If this guy really is a/the legit suspect in this and that van is in fact his, then I'm just glad they caught him.

[Andrew NDB]

The NYT (edit - and others) just put up an article claiming a man in his 50s in FL has been arrested in connection to it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/26/nyregion/cnn-cory-booker-pipe-bombs-sent.html

It should be very interesting once we know more about this guy.

[Autbot_Benz]

Never underestimate the stupidity and conspiracy obsession of U.S. Americans in the 21st century...

After all, maybe not any forum members (or are there?), but it's people in this country that are re-embracing the flat Earth thing. At what point do our allies decide to take pity and just euthanize this country for its own good...? :ohwell:



Two more bombs. Aside from the potential danger to people, because we just can't know, how much is this even costing us in tax dollars at this point?

Although I kinda worry that maybe it's a bunch of duds to make people become apathetic about it before a legit one or more show up somewhere and actually hurt someone. Either that or some copy cat sees this person as a failure and creates ones that do go off.


Side note, my mom said one of my cousins (albeit one I don't know that much) presently works at one of the post offices where one for Biden was found. :tmad::tsad: Glad they were found and removed without incident, but worry that this nonsense could just continue or turn out worse next time. A little creeped out about needing to visit the one I hit for my job again in a few weeks. It's small and doubt it would ever end up involved, in this or some other similar incident, but god only knows.



edit:

The NYT (edit - and others) just put up an article claiming a man in his 50s in FL has been arrested in connection to it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/26/nyregion/cnn-cory-booker-pipe-bombs-sent.html






I won't even say it.

If this guy really is a/the legit suspect in this and that van is in fact his, then I'm just glad they caught him.

So the guy who set the packages was a trump supporter color me surprised

[IndigoErth]

The presidential seal is pretty obvious along with the elephant symbol, though supposedly the van also has images of a target over Hillary, according to something else I just read. Talk about a fanatical nutcase.

[Vegita-San]

the van looks brand new. perfectly washed. not a scratch on it. with stickers un affected by the elements so people can perfectly photograph them.

Also, how does ONE MAN send 12 badly made 'bombs' out by himself on that time schedule?

[Candy Kappa]

"top youth soccer recruits for Trump" :tlol:

https://i.imgur.com/9kZplxg.jpg

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

"top youth soccer recruits for Trump" :tlol:

https://i.imgur.com/9kZplxg.jpg

That's so over-the-top it still doesn't help sway me to believing one possible explanation (conspiracy) over the other (nutjob).

50/50, man. I dunno. People suck either way. :tlol:

[Vegita-San]

this is the world we live in.

the dems hve been loosing it slowly over the last two years, with no real rising stars to challenge trump in 2020. it's entirely possible it could be yet another internal situation of them drumming up sympathy from the 'dumb voter' as hillary would say.

[IndigoErth]

And just how far are people going to stretch to try to insist still that this is the doing of dems/libs... Should I get the popcorn?


edit: Apparently there is a very short clip of the guy at a Trump rally, I assume taken with his own phone from the looks of it.

[Leo656]

For one thing, that's a much more entertaining story than "Lone nut wastes his entire weekend." That's boooooooring.

[Autbot_Benz]

this is the world we live in.

the dems hve been loosing it slowly over the last two years, with no real rising stars to challenge trump in 2020. it's entirely possible it could be yet another internal situation of them drumming up sympathy from the 'dumb voter' as hillary would say.

What are you talking about the guy who did this is a Trump Supporter you twit

Native American Trump supporter Cesar Sayoc, 56. was the guy arrested

https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/26/suspected-maga-bomber-identified-native-american-trump-supporter-cesar-sayoc-8079040/

[Leo656]

Okay, now "Native American Trump Supporter" is a bridge too far. No way that's legit.

That's like saying "Aggressively Heterosexual Women's Golfer", or "Militant Lesbians For Christ." Some words simply don't live near each other.

[Candy Kappa]

Okay, now "Native American Trump Supporter" is a bridge too far. No way that's legit..

Is it though? There's that "Blacks for Trump" guy who turned out to be quite a nutcase

[MsMarvelDuckie]

the van looks brand new. perfectly washed. not a scratch on it. with stickers un affected by the elements so people can perfectly photograph them.

Also, how does ONE MAN send 12 badly made 'bombs' out by himself on that time schedule?

Brand new my aunt Fanny. That thing is just a well-kept older model, looks lime an Econoline company-use model. I see these on the car lot right behind my apartment complex every day. They are tough and don't show wear much. My dad even has the "base" version from the 70's that is still in very good condition. Also not hard to keep clean and shiny in a garage or under a carport.

And it's called being unemployed/retired/disabled, etc. Plenty of people have oodles of free time to kill on surprisingly bizarre hobbies or projects, to say nothing of nutcases who are bored/determined enought to start making bombs....

"top youth soccer recruits for Trump" :tlol:

https://i.imgur.com/9kZplxg.jpg


Yeah, I can see there are a few minor dings in the panels on the side.

[IndigoErth]

Even if the thing was in fact new, so? What does that even mean? Crazy people can't buy a new vehicle? Crazy people can't cover it in propaganda? Even recently? Possibly with the intention of further blocking any view of the inside given recent events?

I've seen vehicles covered in propaganda before, by people I can only assume are just as fanatical about it... just not as violent, or not at all, in the depictions.

[Vegita-San]

the timing of this is just all too convenient.


Along with hillaries tweet of 'we must do something'...seems like inspiring the masses to me. Is it entirely possible it's a lone wolf crazy person, not planned by the democratic party? Hella yes.

is it entirely possible it's the dems planning yet more anti trump sentiment? pretty much all they've BEEN doing for the last 2 and a half years? hella yes too..


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DqUOHO1UUAAm8Hv.jpg

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Planning? Geez-louise, why WOULD they??! They don't NEED to, as he(Trump) drums up plenty of it himself EVERY TIME he opens his mouth!!

[Autbot_Benz]

Christ no matter how many times you tell Conspiracy-San that it was a trump supporter arrested he is still thinking its the dems. What a twit.

[Vegita-San]

Planning? Geez-louise, why WOULD they??! They don't NEED to, as he(Trump) drums up plenty of it himself EVERY TIME he opens his mouth!!

respectfully, it's this kind of over reaction that makes people question everything these days that comes out against trump. Even people who wouldn't care otherwise are starting to tire of it.

I'm no fan of reality star billionaires either....but the toxic climate these days, created mostly by the news media and their celebrity backers, is just crazy. It's far easier to believe the conspiracy angle this close to an election.
that's the stage we've gotten too at this point. all credibility of one side, IMHO, is gone.

[BartAllen]

It's... I want to say funny, but it's sort of weird that the guy that tried to harm the Dems is an ethnic and racial minority while the guy that shot at and actually harmed Republicans last year was a white dude.

[BartAllen]

Could they be the mystical gay frog bombs?



Why is that strange when most if not all who got a bomb package have security people checking their mail.

but I guess you and other posters in this thread also believe Hilary runs a pedo sex ring in pizza restaurant basements, or that the earth is flat.

I don't know about the pedo sex ring (wouldn't surprise me) but I do know that Hillary colluded with her husband to cover up his rape of Juanita Broaddrick.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

respectfully, it's this kind of over reaction that makes people question everything these days that comes out against trump. Even people who wouldn't care otherwise are starting to tire of it.

I'm no fan of reality star billionaires either....but the toxic climate these days, created mostly by the news media and their celebrity backers, is just crazy. It's far easier to believe the conspiracy angle this close to an election.
that's the stage we've gotten too at this point. all credibility of one side, IMHO, is gone.

Over-reaction? To WHAT, exactly? I was stating a simple fact. Just listen to the man talk for five minutes, and it becomes obvious that A) the elevator no longer goes all the way up, and B) he is a horrible person to boot. He creates his OWN toxic reaction just by the things he says/tweets/does.

[IndigoErth]

the toxic climate these days, created mostly by the news media and their celebrity backers
So, Fox News and Trump?

[Vegita-San]

just that type of 'lets hang him, get the pitch forks!' type of reply that reads the way it does over the coldness of the internet. where you can practically feel the type of heat emotion coming off a person as their fingers fly across the keys.

I sometimes picture people with red faces ready to blow any second every time someone posts the type of stuff that Cappy posted above about hillary.

I personally don't support either side. I think there are nuts willing to do fake bombs on both sides..either officially sanctioned or not. So, I can't really get so worked up about it when something crazy comes down on both sides. as far as i'm concerned, both are capable of the same idiocy/hatred/stupidity.

that's why I'm open to the possability that A)it could be a republican nut. B)it could be a deomcratic nut. And I won't call you names if you think otherwise.

[Andrew NDB]

If so, it would literally have to be "right wing extremists... with no sense of logic or reason" (which is definitely possible).

Well, I guess so...

https://i.gifer.com/2q6a.gif

[Candy Kappa]

I don't know about the pedo sex ring (wouldn't surprise me) but I do know that Hillary colluded with her husband to cover up his rape of Juanita Broaddrick.

You don't know about pizzagate? Man, you missed out some crazy right wing conspiracy shenanigans.

[BartAllen]

You don't know about pizzagate? Man, you missed out some crazy right wing conspiracy shenanigans.

Well... There sure are a lot of pictures of the Clintons being a tad too friendly with the likes of Kevin Spacey and Harvey Weinstein. I also seem to remember a few of Hillary with Anthony Weiner. It's not like it's a GIANT leap.

[Candy Kappa]

It's not like it's a GIANT leap.

If you say so, Alex Jones.

[Leo656]

Is it though? There's that "Blacks for Trump" guy who turned out to be quite a nutcase

I just think that it's shocking that this one Native American would jeopardize his street cred with the other 5 or 6 that are left. You'd think they'd have each others' backs on this kinda thing.

Also, I can't WAIT to see Machias blow up once she sees this stuff. :lol: Nobody can follow directions at alllllllll. Glorious.

[Candy Kappa]

Well, that native part might not be all what it seems

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/seminole-tribe-florida-bomb-suspect-cesar-sayoc-747926/

[Autbot_Benz]

If you say so, Alex Jones.

Speaking of Alex Jones someone actually filmed him I kid you not yelling at Piles of **** on the ground it was hilarious

[BartAllen]

If you say so, Alex Jones.

Kevin Spacey is a pedophile. Bill and Hill hung around him. Whether you like it or not it's not a stretch for people to think that Bill (a rapist himself) might also have some of the proclivities with people he shares time with.

Oh, and remind me, what was Anthony Weiner convicted of and currently serving a term in Prison for?

[BartAllen]

Well, that native part might not be all what it seems

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/seminole-tribe-florida-bomb-suspect-cesar-sayoc-747926/

You're desperate for him to be a white guy. I guess it's a shame he isn't white with blonde hair... If only he looked like the Bernie bro that shot at the Republican congressmen. But keep pretending this is something exclusive to the right.

Oh, and ignore the fact that just today the man responsible for sending ricin to the trump family as well as a bunch of republican members of congress was sentenced today. Both sides has its crazies.

[Leo656]

What vexes me is - and I can only speak from my own experience - I never personally hear calls to violence from the more conservative people I know. Only the liberals; and from them it's constant. And not new, either.

When Clinton was President, I never heard anyone say "I hope someone kills this guy", or "I want him dead." I heard a few say "Lock him up" or whatever. Same with Obama; a lot of people I knew weren't happy, but nobody outright said "I hope someone shoots him". They'd just laugh whenever he would make bigger and bigger promises and then not follow through, but they never took it personally. More simple annoyance that anyone would believe him, since he's... y'know... a politician.

I'm well aware that there WERE people going on about incitement of violence towards Obama; I've seen the same articles and videos, so no need to go searching. I KNOW some people acted like that; but they seem to be, like, openly hostile White Supremacist types, rather than, y'know, Normal People. My point is that I, personally, NEVER encountered anyone who said "I hate Obama, I hope someone kills him."

However, I DO and HAVE heard that kind of thing from Liberals, often and loud, for many years. George W. Bush? "I hope someone kills him!" Trump? "I hope someone kills him!" Alllllll the time. It's disturbing. These aren't generally "hateful" people; what's disturbing is, these are "normal" people who nonetheless think that the correct reaction to someone saying things they politically disagree with is, "I hope someone kills them!" And they're not joking.

When Trump won the election, my Facebook feed was a nightmare, with people I otherwise respect saying they either hoped someone killed him, or else hinting that they'd like to take a shot themselves. And most of them still go on like this, two years later! It's almost daily with them; "I hope someone shoots Trump; I hope someone stabs Ben Shapiro", and on and ON.
Some of these people are teachers, some of them work with disabled people and children... and frankly, it worries me what kind of influence they're putting out into the world, because that's NOT acceptable. But they think it is, because "They're on the right side of history." :roll: This is why when Liberals insist that they're the Good Guys, I just shake my head. "Good Guys" don't respond to "hurtful words" with, "I hope someone murders that person I don't like, he said mean things on muh TV."

I mean, every day, my in-laws are glued to the TV, listening to the politicos rant about Trump this and that, and every day they go on and on about "WHY hasn't anyone shot this guy yet?!" Like, they're absolutely rooting for it. And I really feel like we all need to step back and take a breath when we catch ourselves acting like that, especially when it's EVERY DAY.

I never see/hear it from Conservatives, but Liberals are openly violent and hateful when people they dislike are "in charge". That's why, to me, they're worse than Conservatives. "Secretly" sh*tty people are far more dangerous than someone who openly demonstrates their sh*ttiness to your face.

Again, I'm well aware there are a lot of openly hateful Conservatives, but they also tend to be openly White Supremacist and the only people who pay them any mind are people who already feel the same way. They're not putting on a suit and tie, going to work teaching Autistic children and saying "So THIS is when it's okay to want to murder people we don't like." That's horrible, and horrifying.

Maybe it's a NJ thing. I don't know. I can only call what I see.

[IndigoErth]

You're desperate for him to be a white guy.
Why are many on the Right I'm seeing online seeming desperate for him not to be? Does it help them feel like they can distance themselves from him, that he's "not like me"?

His heritage didn't make him send bombs to people and become a Trump fanatic.


Same with Obama; a lot of people I knew weren't happy, but nobody outright said "I hope someone shoots him".
The guy for whom there were lynched and burning effigies of? Yeah, not sure there was or hasn't been violence from conservatives, I've heard of plenty of it, esp when that guy was in office. He's supposedly actually the president who had received the most frequent death threats.

[Leo656]

His heritage didn't make him send bombs to people and become a Trump fanatic.

Maybe sippin' a bit too much of the Fire Water. :lol:

Uh-oh... did I just do a racism? :trazz:

[BartAllen]

Why are many on the Right I'm seeing online seeming desperate for him not to be? Does it help them feel like they can distance themselves from him, that he's "not like me"?

His heritage didn't make him send bombs to people and become a Trump fanatic.

It's a fair point. I do notice a few (maybe a bit more) that do seem to be like that. I don't know why it's that way. I just notice that when this **** happens liberals ALWAYS want the culprits to be white.

I don't really have a hunt in that as I'm an ethnic/racial minority myself. I'm just saying that as an outsider looking in; I see far, FAR more liberals wanting these types of crimes to be perpetrated by white men. It's like they can't deal with the fact that other ethnicities and races commits crimes.

I am in no way a Obummer supporter but even I remember there were people out there that wanted him dead. Again, both sides have wackos that want to justify breaking the law and doing horrible ****. This sad incident is just the latest. It's just troubling that people choose to ignore it when someone of 'their side' does it and then cry outrage when it suits them (when it's someone on the other side).

[IndigoErth]

It's like they can't deal with the fact that other ethnicities and races commits crimes.
Eh, I think (imo) it's less that and more along the lines of some don't mind being able to stick it to a particular chunk of whites on the conservative side who seem to strongly believe they hold some kind of superiority and a guarded sense of perfection related to having pale flesh; those people to who it actually matters if a person like this bomber were white, as if one rotten egg somehow says anything of all white people... But since some seem to act like it would, there are certainly others out there that don't mind watching them feel uncomfortable over it.

Really couldn't care less what race the guy is. At best he looks like an uninteresting mix of who cares. How he came about with a mindset to do what he did is more important. Or, as we'd call it for other home grown terrorists, where his radicalization came from.

[Prowler]

Maybe sippin' a bit too much of the Fire Water. :lol:

Uh-oh... did I just do a racism? :trazz:

Is that slang for booze?

[Leo656]

Yesssssss.

[Prowler]

Yesssssss.

I thought so.

A bit off-topic, but when I was a kid we still played the "indians" and cowboys game. The former were the bad guys by default. i guess future generations wont' do that anymore eventually. Tbh, looking back, it's kinda messed up how "Indians" tend to be portrayed as dangerous savages and cowboys as the good guys.

[Autbot_Benz]

Trump probably thinks the maga bomber is a very fine person :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

So, Fox News and Trump?


LOL, yeah, pretty much.


just that type of 'lets hang him, get the pitch forks!' type of reply that reads the way it does over the coldness of the internet. where you can practically feel the type of heat emotion coming off a person as their fingers fly across the keys.

I sometimes picture people with red faces ready to blow any second every time someone posts the type of stuff that Cappy posted above about hillary.

I personally don't support either side. I think there are nuts willing to do fake bombs on both sides..either officially sanctioned or not. So, I can't really get so worked up about it when something crazy comes down on both sides. as far as i'm concerned, both are capable of the same idiocy/hatred/stupidity.

that's why I'm open to the possability that A)it could be a republican nut. B)it could be a deomcratic nut. And I won't call you names if you think otherwise.


Not especially a fan of Hillary either, (and please, for the love of gods, use a capitals to begin proper nouns!) but, I'm not going to grab a pitchfork and join the mob of angry villagers ready to lynch the man, just because I feel he's running the country into the ground and blaming the rest of the world for his own inability to handle authority OR criticism. He's a child sitting on daddy's chair playing king, but unless that game starts a war (which it might, if things with the refugee caravan go as badly as I suspect they might) then he is just a jester borrowing the throne until someone comes in and boots him off. Am I annoyed? Sure. Angry at what he's doing? Absolutely. But want to hang him? Uh, no. Not until he does something REALLY stupid and heinous, like starting a war with China or something.

[Leo656]

he's running the country into the ground


By what standard, though? People are making more money, and big companies are hiring more workers than they have in ages. "But he's mean!" Who honestly cares? That's seriously all I ever hear people say about him, "He's an obnoxious loudmouth." I don't think anyone disagrees with that assessment one bit; I just think a lot of people genuinely don't care, because... you know... they're personally doing Just Fine.

I don't think anything's being "run into the ground"; I truly think people choose to see it that way because they don't like him personally, and wish he wasn't in his position. Because rhetoric aside, things are pretty good for most people right now. I'm not about to give HIM all the credit for it, but I didn't blame every passing cloud on Obama, either; these people don't honestly influence things THAT much. People just need a super-villain to blame all their problems on.

I also am not one of those people who thinks our "international reputation" matters, so when people say things like, "He's making us look bad!", I have to gently remind everyone that the whole world hates us anyway, and always has, and always will... UNTIL they need us to come bail them out of something, in which case we're suddenly Kenobi-like in our Only Hope-ness.


unless that game starts a war (which it might, if things with the refugee caravan go as badly as I suspect they might)


I'm totally sure the entire White House staff stays up all night, petrified at the thought of war with f*cking Honduras. :lol: Worst case, the price of a Starbucks coffee in America goes up to $8 and nobody notices.

We really do need to be more firm with these roving bands of freeloaders from multiple points of origin, however. I mean, about 75% of these peoples' problems stem from the fact that back home, they either 1. Had kids too young, 2. Had kids out of wedlock, or 3. Had kids despite in no way earning an income sufficient enough to raise a family. All of that sh*t is entirely avoidable, and yet because a bunch of them did it all at once, they think it's acceptable to just march on over to someone else's "house" and demand refuge. Look dude, if your country sucks, that's unfortunate, but don't come knocking on my door asking for a sandwich, we got a few hundred thousand of our own - including many who've fought in wars - who aren't being properly taken care of. At best, take a number and a seat outside.

Anyway, nah, nothing significant to fear from them. Most likely, a big bunch of people are gonna be really cranky on the long walk home. Which is typically what happens when you storm into someplace exclusive without an appointment and expect service.

Trump may be an asshole in general, but he's not an asshole for telling those people we really don't owe them anything. That's the correct response. It may not be "compassionate", but again, Compassion and Logic make terrible neighbors.

I learned that when I was homeless, and the social worker at Housing Assistance claimed that "You're white, you're supposed to be doing better," while the social worker at the next table was openly "educating" an illegal immigrant on how to squeeze ten people into a two-bedroom unit without arousing her landlord's suspicion. :roll:

So, y'know. F*ck 'em.

[PApagreg]

By what standard, though? People are making more money, and big companies are hiring more workers than they have in ages. "But he's mean!" Who honestly cares? That's seriously all I ever hear people say about him, "He's an obnoxious loudmouth." I don't think anyone disagrees with that assessment one bit; I just think a lot of people genuinely don't care, because... you know... they're personally doing Just Fine.
While big companies hiring more workers is nice we need to learn how much they pay said workers, Walmarts 11 dollars a month may seem nice but no one can support themselves on a flimsy paycheck especially since there are more people without health insurance and the price of housing increased.
I don't think anything's being "run into the ground"; I truly think people choose to see it that way because they don't like him personally, and wish he wasn't in his position. Because rhetoric aside, things are pretty good for most people right now.
What do you mean by "most people" we are still getting bankrupt over hospital bills, people who work 40 hours a week can't afford to support themselves much less a family,





We really do need to be more firm with these roving bands of freeloaders from multiple points of origin, however. I mean, about 75% of these peoples' problems stem from the fact that back home, they either 1. Had kids too young, 2. Had kids out of wedlock, or 3. Had kids despite in no way earning an income sufficient enough to raise a family. All of that sh*t is entirely avoidable, and yet because a bunch of them did it all at once, they think it's acceptable to just march on over to someone else's "house" and demand refuge.

You always complain how millennials today don't work hard and want to take freebies but you do know that it was possible to support a family while working a factory job right after highschool, American today are getting payed as much as their 80 counterpart while things like College Tuition, Housing, and Health Insurance has gone up https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-25/these-u-s-workers-are-being-paid-like-it-s-the-1980s

Look dude, if your country sucks, that's unfortunate, but don't come knocking on my door asking for a sandwich, we got a few hundred thousand of our own - including many who've fought in wars - who aren't being properly taken care of. At best, take a number and a seat outside.

So maybe make the systems more efficient, like I don't know have universal healthcare a system that's not only better than the one we have but also will cost less.
http://sanigest.com/universal-health-care-would-save-americans-600-billion-a-year/


I learned that when I was homeless, and the social worker at Housing Assistance claimed that "You're white, you're supposed to be doing better," while the social worker at the next table was openly "educating" an illegal immigrant on how to squeeze ten people into a two-bedroom unit without arousing her landlord's suspicion. :roll:

So, y'know. F*ck 'em.

So because a social worker was being an asshole to you, you think its okay to say "F%ck'em" to a group of people who want a better life. You got on me for not being empathetic on people's view on a cartoon because its going to have two gay people in it but when it comes to people who are struggling financially to support there families you are "Survival of the Fittest"

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Ok, just as an example, I'll use my own situation. You doubtless already know about the issues with Mr D and his health problems. Here's the rhing- the ONLY reason he is able to go to his treatments is because the ACA (Obamacare) allows his Medicare and disability to cover the 600$ treatments. That's 600$ EACH. Three times a week. My entire paycheck would MAYBE cover ONE. With nothing left over. Neither would his SSI. But because of the ACA we pay nothing for medical treatments that keep him alive, where without it, he would have been dead long ago, simply because the health industry (who by the way would charge even MORE if the Don has his way) makes it impossible for "normal" people on low-to-average wages to afford neccessary medical treatments. Even worse, what little disability pay and SSI he has now is in danger of being cut even lower (it is currently barely enough to supplement my income and make ends meet) to the point that if cut, would very likely make us homeless. Rent goes up, but our income has not, and has in fact gone down in his case. So, yeah. The higher-income families may not be seeing much difference, but down in the bottom tier, his policies are hurting people like us. No one is doing "better" except the already wealthy, and businesses might be hiring more, but they are not PAYING more to keep up with rising costs of living! More workers at sub-living wages isn't going to help the country. It makes things worse. That's just ONE example that is very close to home here. And the clinic he goes to is FULL of others in the same situation. Most of them 50+ aka seniors. All of them are getting screwed over by his so called "improvements" to the system.

And those tax breaks he promised? Never saw 'em. All those tax breaks went mostly to the top brass of big companies, almost NONE of that ever made its way to the lower levels in wages or bonuses or the like. Certainly not in our company. He's a proven scammer, and everyone fell for the false promise, but no one really got ahead from that, except the ones who were already doing so. Even the stock market is starting to peak and downslide, which was inevitable after such a long rise. Add to that the divisive and toxic atmosphere both socially and politically since he took office, and it's pretty clear where we're headed. Maybe not an outright Civil War, but something bordering on civil unrest, at the very least. And that bothers me, because it is so very obvious to anyone who is paying attention. But nope, EVERYTHING'S peachy! Or so he'd have us believe.

As for the immigrants- heard on the news tonight that he wants to send 800 military personel to "assist" the border security. Against hundreds or thousands of poor, frightened people seeking asylum from violence and corruption back home. I can only see this going horribly wrong, most likely from some trigger-happy idiot deciding to start shooting at desperate throngs of hungry women and children fleeing exactly that kind of treatment. So any incident that is caused, will not only be squarely on him, but would strain tenstions with our southern neighbors even further than they are now with insanely high tariffs on foreign goods and the recent outrages over "caged children" being forcefully separated from their families at the border. He's courting disaster on multiple fronts there, and frankly, it scares me more than a little. Especially since ours is one of the first states that would be affected if there was a conflict.

[Leo656]

PA:
- Other thread business can stay in other threads. Especially when it has aaaaabsolutely F*ck-all-nothin' to do with what's currently being discussed.

- I'm well aware that things have shifted economically in the last few decades. People still have opportunities to create their own "better life", rather than demanding it be handed to them. They simply don't listen when people try and give them good advice. When I was in high school, a team of counselors spoke to our entire class and said, essentially, "By the time you get out of college, all the money jobs are going to be in pharmaceuticals. All the computer jobs you're excited about are going to be outsourced to India within a few years, but the drug industry is set to boom and it's the only product America still produces for itself. So if you want to be successful, you need to apply yourself in advanced math and chemistry, so you can get a job in the pharmaceutical industry. If for some reason your skills don't lie in that direction, your next safest bet is to learn a trade like welding. Otherwise, if you pursue virtually any other area of interest, you're probably going to struggle and end up in a lot of debt."

Lo and behold, most kids said, "I don't wanna do that. I wanna do computers." Most of those kids wasted their time and money. The pharmacy techs, the lab workers, the steelworkers and auto mechanics... they're all doing just fine. "But I don't wanna do that!" I know, me neither. So I had a sh*t job for a long time until I went to school for a better one. Which still ain't great, but it's better. Had I known then what I know know, I definitely would have found a way to learn chemistry, even if I didn't want to.

Point being, I'm aware that people can't go from the mail room to the penthouse anymore, or get a lifetime job picking up where their father left off. However, many times people ARE given the next best thing to a map to earning a comfortable living, and they screw it up because "I don't wanna do that." So my sympathy only goes so far. A lot of people create their own problems, often by not taking perfectly good advice because it's not what they want to hear.

- I'm HIGHLY suspicious of those projections on health care, because I don't think anyone's truly considered the variables and complications that are unique to this country and don't apply elsewhere. Most actual doctors whose opinions I've read on the subject swear that it would lead to a mass exodus of medical professionals - since it's now gone from a 6-figure job to a "wait for the government to pay you" job - and severe lack of resources spread between an infinite number of new patients. I don't see how it could be anything but a giant clusterf*ck. The system we have isn't perfect, by any means, but I think such a dramatic overhaul could only complicate things further.

- I'm always "survival of the fittest" with these things. I'm going to wager that me and my family have "struggled" a fair bit more than most. We've also done well, at times, so I've seen how things work on the Up and Down. Absolutely, Yes, if I - a person born and raised in this country, who was working 6 days a week for many years and was suddenly thrust into a situation I needed help to get out of - can be told, to my face, by those same people who were supposed to help me, "You're not supposed to have these problems," and ALSO say I don't deserve help because I'm white, and then someone who really has NO reason to be here, is technically a criminal, and in NO way deserving of any government assistance or resources, can be trained by those SAME PEOPLE on how to cheat the system, you're goddamn right I'm going to be pissed because that's NOT how this sh*t is supposed to work. People who are from here, working steadily, pay taxes, etc., deserve infinitely more help when they get "stuck" than someone who literally hopped a fence for a free lunch. The system was designed to help people like me, NOT people like them. So to see myself, and others like me, get pushed aside so a bunch of other people can claim those resources as their own - because "C'mooonnn maaaan, be nice!" - is downright infuriating. It's abuse of resources at best, outright theft at worst.

Exactly WHO told any of these people to have kids they couldn't afford to raise? And why is that MY problem? Listen, if somebody says, "So, my plan for a 'Better Life' is to have kids too young, while earning a migrant worker's wage, then run screaming over to the closest, richest country I can find begging for handouts," that person makes horrible life choices and they really don't deserve anything. "My family!" Money first, family second. You don't start the f*cking family until you can pay for it, numbnuts. I mean, sh*t, it's just as big a problem here, but that goes back to the larger point. We already have TOO MANY freeloaders and welfare cases living here, so it really wouldn't do us any good to just go ahead and squeeze in a few thousand more.

Aaaaaaaaand a lot of it could all be avoided if people weren't generally stupid. People sure ask me to care an awful lot about other people's self-inflicted problems. They did nothing to create their "better life", but they insist someone hand it over to them. Nah. Make better choices, own your mistakes, take the rest from there. Nobody owes anybody a living. Sh*t's laughable. Part of the impotent rage coming from the under-30 crowd is that they completely expect life to work in ways that it doesn't, can't, and never will.
-------------------

Duckie:

- I'm aware. My father also spent the last decade-plus of his life battling multiple illnesses, pre-ObamaCare, being billed for expensive treatments and surgeries despite only getting a paltry $1200 every month. Not fun. MediCare covered some, the rest he just stiffed 'em. I don't think he paid a dime for any of his heart surgeries, at about ten grand a pop. He (correctly) assumed they wouldn't simply let him die. I don't exactly recommend handling things that way, but that's how a lot of extremely sick people survive: Nobody actually pays their medical bills except rich people. Everybody else just wings it.

I mean, I'm not trivializing; it's horrible for you. But again, there's been countless times when I, or a family member, was struggling, and the question was put to us, "What were the life choices that brought you here? If you did ____, would you maybe be doing better, and in turn be able to handle these problems better?" It does little good in the present day, but at some point, we're ultimately responsible for our life situation, nobody else. It's cold, perhaps, but as I've repeatedly stated, I was not taught or raised to want or expect sympathy as a solution; I was taught to own my choices and try harder next time.

I'm glad you're getting by for the time being and I hope the situation somehow improves.

- The easiest solution to "Things are better for the wealthy than the poor" is to become wealthy, no? Again, we're all guilty of not doing enough to improve our station in life. My boss is sure to remind me every day that I could be as rich as he is, if only I _______. And he's right; there's reasons why I don't/can't copy his model to the letter at this moment in time, but if I did I would surely be quite successful. I don't prioritize the right things sometimes, and that's on me.

It's not like the world is suddenly going to start treating poor people fairly. No chance. So, the choices are "Become Wealthy", which we've seen is easier to achieve in this country than anywhere else in the world no matter who you are, or else "Keep Being Mad About It." Which doesn't do much. At some point, that anger can be put to productive use, which will ultimately put the person in a better situation. But that's entirely on them.

- "Politicians Lie, Film At 11." Simple solution: Don't listen to what any of these people say, you won't get heartburn when it turns out to be bullsh*t. C'mon. People act like Trump invented lying, or something. Was I the only one who was raised NOT to trust these people at all? Seriously.

- If those people come from a country that's SO awful, then they should revolt, clean house, and start over themselves. That, I could respect. I don't respect anyone going door-to-door begging for handouts. And don't even get me started on the "caged children" thing; technically those children shouldn't exist, as their parents were supremely irresponsible and selfish for having them, and then in turn putting this entire situation into motion. Shame on them. Shame on ANYONE who has kids without a solid foundation and plan, then expects anyone else to clean up the mess they made.

- If their resources are as sh*tty as the refugees claim, then they're incapable of fighting a war with anyone. Plus, we consume a f*ck ton of coffee, and I'm sure they like the piles of money that brings them. That would be another "weekend skirmish", if anything came to pass. But don't worry; it won't. They're just gonna pout.

You may accuse me of being cold, and you're right. Lacking empathy, also true. But the thing is, I figured out a long time ago that You and only You are responsible for your life situation, and it's on You and only You to fix it. So much of liberal philosophy relies on rewarding people for making terrible decisions, and I simply can't abide that. For every one person's sob story, someone has an even sobbier one, and then you have to put THAT person's individual needs ahead of everyone else's because you feel bad, and... no. It CAN'T work that way. Empathy makes TERRIBLE government policy, and almost any economist will say so.

I feel like a lot of you, at some point, were told that life would be fair and kind to you. For that, I'm very sorry.

[PApagreg]

PA:
- Other thread business can stay in other threads. Especially when it has aaaaabsolutely F*ck-all-nothin' to do with what's currently being discussed.
You're the one who brought it up

- I'm well aware that things have shifted economically in the last few decades. People still have opportunities to create their own "better life", rather than demanding it be handed to them.
Umm not really, if they can't afford the chance to get a higher education or any type of housing and they could be bankrupt in terms of medical bills then its hard to use said opportunities when things are stacked against there favors and them "demanding stuff handed to them" is just asking for a fair trade.



They simply don't listen when people try and give them good advice. When I was in high school, a team of counselors spoke to our entire class and said, essentially, "By the time you get out of college, all the money jobs are going to be in pharmaceuticals. All the computer jobs you're excited about are going to be outsourced to India within a few years, but the drug industry is set to boom and it's the only product America still produces for itself. So if you want to be successful, you need to apply yourself in advanced math and chemistry, so you can get a job in the pharmaceutical industry.

You do know jobs are finite right, if everyone is trying to get a job in the pharmaceutical industry it means those jobs are going to become even more rare

If for some reason your skills don't lie in that direction, your next safest bet is to learn a trade like welding. Otherwise, if you pursue virtually any other area of interest, you're probably going to struggle and end up in a lot of debt."Lo and behold, most kids said, "I don't wanna do that. I wanna do computers." Most of those kids wasted their time and money. The pharmacy techs, the lab workers, the steelworkers and auto mechanics... they're all doing just fine. "But I don't wanna do that!" I know, me neither. So I had a sh*t job for a long time until I went to school for a better one. Which still ain't great, but it's better. Had I known then what I know know, I definitely would have found a way to learn chemistry, even if I didn't want to.
1. Like I said before not everyone should be the jobs listed because that just means less potential jobs of that calibur
2. Citation need on "doing just fine" I know a lot of pharmacy techs and auto mechanics who are having trouble paying for money and housing.

Point being, I'm aware that people can't go from the mail room to the penthouse anymore, or get a lifetime job picking up where their father left off. However, many times people ARE given the next best thing to a map to earning a comfortable living, and they screw it up because "I don't wanna do that." So my sympathy only goes so far. A lot of people create their own problems, often by not taking perfectly good advice because it's not what they want to hear.

Where are you getting this idea that people are suffering because they aren't working hard enough, millennials are working harder than Gen X and Baby Boomers and most of the time they aren't given the next best thing since AGAIN, schooling has went up

- I'm HIGHLY suspicious of those projections on health care, because I don't think anyone's truly considered the variables and complications that are unique to this country and don't apply elsewhere. Most actual doctors whose opinions I've read on the subject swear that it would lead to a mass exodus of medical professionals - since it's now gone from a 6-figure job to a "wait for the government to pay you" job - and severe lack of resources spread between an infinite number of new patients. I don't see how it could be anything but a giant clusterf*ck. The system we have isn't perfect, by any means, but I think such a dramatic overhaul could only complicate things further.

1. Look at every country with Universal healthcare and notice they spend much less on it than we do.
2. The people here are professionals who have been factoring in the variables you listed
3. Doctors in Canada are not only getting paid as much as our do but actually rejected pay rise

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43336410
-
I'm always "survival of the fittest" with these things. I'm going to wager that me and my family have "struggled" a fair bit more than most. We've also done well, at times, so I've seen how things work on the Up and Down. Absolutely, Yes, if I - a person born and raised in this country, who was working 6 days a week for many years and was suddenly thrust into a situation I needed help to get out of - can be told, to my face, by those same people who were supposed to help me, "You're not supposed to have these problems," and ALSO say I don't deserve help because I'm white, and then someone who really has NO reason to be here, is technically a criminal, and in NO way deserving of any government assistance or resources, can be trained by those SAME PEOPLE on how to cheat the system, you're goddamn right I'm going to be pissed because that's NOT how this sh*t is supposed to work. People who are from here, working steadily, pay taxes, etc., deserve infinitely more help when they get "stuck" than someone who literally hopped a fence for a free lunch. The system was designed to help people like me, NOT people like them. So to see myself, and others like me, get pushed aside so a bunch of other people can claim those resources as their own - because "C'mooonnn maaaan, be nice!" - is downright infuriating. It's abuse of resources at best, outright theft at worst.


So again because of that one example of a social worker being an asshole you are going to put entire group of people under the bus and again most immigrants are struggling just like you and even worse in cases but you are saying screw them because a social worker was focusing their attention on the immigrant instead of you.

Exactly WHO told any of these people to have kids they couldn't afford to raise? And why is that MY problem? Listen, if somebody says, "So, my plan for a 'Better Life' is to have kids too young, while earning a migrant worker's wage, then run screaming over to the closest, richest country I can find begging for handouts," that person makes horrible life choices and they really don't deserve anything. "My family!" Money first, family second. You don't start the f*cking family until you can pay for it, numbnuts. I mean, sh*t, it's just as big a problem here, but that goes back to the larger point. We already have TOO MANY freeloaders and welfare cases living here, so it really wouldn't do us any good to just go ahead and squeeze in a few thousand more.

If you want to complain about freeloaders complain about how we spend billions if not trillions are the military industry complex and complain about bailouts for corporations and wall street. Also why should raising a kid be a mistake, we need a next generation of people to support the country and while I'm not saying everyone should have babies regardless of what they say I also don't think we should have people in situations they can't escape for having kids and we should't be punishing kids either. Like I said the cost of living has gone up and so has the cost of raising a child so why should we make people's live miserable.

Aaaaaaaaand a lot of it could all be avoided if people weren't generally stupid. People sure ask me to care an awful lot about other people's self-inflicted problems. They did nothing to create their "better life", but they insist someone hand it over to them. Nah. Make better choices, own your mistakes, take the rest from there. Nobody owes anybody a living. Sh*t's laughable. Part of the impotent rage coming from the under-30 crowd is that they completely expect life to work in ways that it doesn't, can't, and never will.



How can people create a "Better Life" when so much is stacked against them, you can't create something from nothing and you certainly can't improve when everything is not in your favor. Also I love how you think people under 30 are expecting life to work out in unrealistic ways when it wasn't too long a person without an education could support a family of two. You call people being bankrupt over medical bills, having pay for increased housing and college tuition, and working more hours for less pay impotent rage then I bet you would be calling factory workers from the 1930s crybabies.

[Leo656]

- I have no idea what you mean, but I definitely made no reference to That Thread in This Thread. You brought up the other thread as a way to play some kind of "Gotcha" game with me. That's against the rules, so don't do it.

- Hearing a lot about "stacked decks", which again, doesn't concern me. I've known too many people who personally went from Zero-To-Hero for me to have doubts about the merits of overcoming adversity on the way to a better life. I've seen it happen. "Sounds really hard." Well yeah, no sh*t. That's why life has Winners and Losers.

- Your "job scarcity" hypothesis assumes that every single person who was told, "Get a job doing X" actually went ahead and did so, when logically, it's implicitly understood that most of them wouldn't. Because again, people hate taking good advice. The fundamental point of, "If you want to do well, this is what you SHOULD do" remains valid. Obviously there are variables that will affect the outcome, but on the whole, people who become steelworkers earn more over a lifetime than people who major in Sociology.

- Nobody I personally knew who went to vocational school is struggling, and most are thriving. I live in a part of the country where Big Pharma is a juggernaut. I can't speak to what's going on elsewhere. Again, not my immediate concern, as it doesn't affect me directly.

- The danger when anyone speaks anecdotally is, some person is going to say, "OHHHH so it's all about YOU...." as a retort. No, it's not. My example was a perfect and clear illustrative example of how the system doesn't work the way it's supposed to, and we prioritize "need" based on sympathy rather than merit. Every single illegal immigrant should be at the very BACK of the line for any government-provided services, behind every single U.S. Citizen, because they are NOT citizens and are thus stealing from the government. It's not at all complicated, and I don't care what their sob story is. You feed the people in your own house before you start feeding the stray cats outside. Anything else is absurd.

I mean, those same people also told my sister that she and her two kids "could just sleep in a car for a few months" rather than help her get into a place, and this was after her kids' Dad repeatedly beat her. Again, "You're white, Do Better." And again, the people living in her building who DIDN'T get evicted? Not legal, living eight-to-a-unit. People look the other way on THAT sh*t. :roll: Don't talk to me about a "stacked f*cking deck", because it seems that you have no idea how things really are. I'm GLAD you haven't had to deal with it, believe me. But trust me when I say, you don't know.

Again, I'm sorry that the two best examples of how sh*tty the system is, and how completely slanted it is, happen to involve me and/or members of my immediate family. The fact that you have a problem with what I believe, or even with me as a person shouldn't invalidate that these things happened, they continue to happen to other people who deserve better, and that they really shouldn't be allowed to happen. A wandering band of moochers gets to trade Sad Tales for room & board, while so many veterans who've served overseas get to sleep on a street corner. Nothing about that is right.

If they're so dissatisfied, let them simply go back to their country, start a revolution, and Be The Change. They won't, because trading on sympathy requires infinitely less effort, and we reward them for that.

- Maintaining a potent military is infinitely more important than handing out money to people who don't want to earn it. Most of our current technology was initially developed through various military research, for one thing.

- Who creates these "inescapable situations"? I'm genuinely curious. All problem have solutions; it's just that very often, that solution is painful and at complete odds with what we want. But, that's called Life. "I really don't like being caught in this bear trap, but I REALLY don't want to lose my hand getting out." Well, someone has some thinking to do, then. One of two things is going to happen, both directly involving how acceptable the situation is to the person in it. They will NOT change the situation by repeatedly calling it "unfair"; that can be said for certain.

ALL situations are "escapable"; sometimes, you have to hack through bone. That's Life.

- You'll have an impossible time convincing me, ever, that anyone, anywhere, either Needs or Deserves children. One look at the world should be more than enough to convince anyone that dumping more mouths into the zoo is irresponsible, reckless, and selfish. Repeat: I find having kids to be a supremely selfish decision and most of those people would do better for everyone by adopting a pet from a shelter. Having kids ruins multiple lives over several generations. Nobody should do it. Especially anybody without a 6-figure income and a stable home... which is what is scientifically proven fundamentally necessary to actually raise a kid to not be a complete failure. And even then, it's 60/40.

- Well, we're not quite working people literally to death in the coal mines at the moment, so until we are, there's little need for false equivalence.
--------------

Anyway, I think "We agree on nothing" is probably a good place to leave it. Which is fine. I've explained my position, you've done yours, and I promise that neither of us is going to budge. I'm sorry that you don't seem to believe in the idea that ultimately You and Only You are responsible for your life, but I promise you it's true. The whole "stacked deck" thing is too much of a victim mentality for me to buy into. If you really buy that kind of thinking, you'll definitely have something to point fingers at whenever you don't get your way, but you ultimately won't be very successful in life, because life doesn't ultimately work that way. Redistribution of wealth doesn't work. Rewarding people for failure or bad choices doesn't work. Taking your dissatisfaction with your situation and channeling it into something productive that can ultimately improve your life, however, DOES work. It's just infinitely, infinitely harder than the "stacked deck" alternative.

Good luck to you, sir. May the forces of Evil become confused on the way to your house. :)

[Candy Kappa]

You're desperate for him to be a white guy. I guess it's a shame he isn't white with blonde hair... If only he looked like the Bernie bro that shot at the Republican congressmen. But keep pretending this is something exclusive to the right.

I'm not desperate about anything, don't be ridiculous. He's exactly as expected, a Trump supporter.

Him allegedly not being a member of the tribe he claims to be is just funny.

[BartAllen]

I'm not desperate about anything, don't be ridiculous. He's exactly as expected, a Trump supporter.

Him allegedly not being a member of the tribe he claims to be is just funny.

So... the guy that shot up the baseball field last year and the guy that sent the ricin to the republicans is also exactly as expected? A hillary/bernie supporter? You realize your ideological lenses are showing, right? Don't you have some CNN to watch?

I'm surprised you haven't labelled me a Russian bot.


Oh, and Papagreg, you have no idea what you're talking about. There are SO MANY financial institutions that are already in place above and beyond the federal government that are there to help Latinos. Don't tell me, A LATINO, that you know better than me. You don't. There are also a ton (figuratively) of loans and benefits for college that help latinos. I used them. I BARELY paid out of pocket for college. That socitial stack ******** you're using to justify your ideology is wrong on so many levels. These people at the southern border are invaders and economic migrants. That's it.

[IndigoErth]

Typical...? No, since the vast majority, on either side, would never do such a thing. However, the republican/conservative side really needs to consider making a concerted effort, most of all Trump himself, to strongly start condemning the disturbing amount of white supremacists, etc who seem to feel they have found a home on that side. They should be at home with NO side. This guy supposedly, according to his family's lawyer, "found a father in Trump." And according to an employer was definitely a white supremacist. (Seems the native thing was fake, his parents are supposedly Filipino and Italian.)

If the man is as mentally ill as some are saying then that is sad, no one asks for that, but the kind of rhetoric and language Trump is using all the time is far too provoking for people like this who become obsessed with his negative message and feel they are at home siding with him against all the great "evils" Trump goes on about all the time. It's just going to drive people like this further into illness. (Just like that incel 'community,' and similar stuff does.) And Trump, unfortunately, is just going to keep right on doing it because he has zero self awareness and refuses to even think about it.

How soon does another of these guys come out of the woodwork? :ohwell:

[Leo656]

It would be nice if he did that, but he can't for the exact same reason Democrats won't crack down on illegals: You can't attack a big chunk of your support base and expect to stay in power.

Remember: Red or Blue, it's NOT about making the country or the world a better place; it's about power and control. You establish power by determining which group of rubes are easiest to manipulate. You maintain power by continuing to manipulate those people. You LOSE power by telling those people, "What you're doing is wrong, please f*ck off."

Consider how fast the Kennedys started disappearing once they started making noise about "organized crime", after the mob got them into office in the first place. You don't sh*t where you eat.

I agree, it would be great if Trump took a stand against his more ridiculous supporters, but no politician would ever slit their own throat like that. I wouldn't expect any of them to. That would require integrity, which is the first thing they surgically remove from you once you decide to enter politics.

[Candy Kappa]

So... the guy that shot up the baseball field last year and the guy that sent the ricin to the republicans is also exactly as expected? A hillary/bernie supporter?

ah, whataboutism.

the baseball shooter have his own thread, pretty certain he's been discussed before.

the ricin mailer, hmm. Is it "ricin to the republicans" or to people working in the government, like the CIA director, FBI chief, Secretary of the Air Force, Defense Secretary and President.

Didn't he also send threating letters to the Air Force last year, and threaten to kill Obama when he was President back in 2015?

And he has a criminal history with domestic abuse, seems to be it's not all that "evil liberal attacking the poor republicans", but you do seem to loooove bring this guy up.


You realize your ideological lenses are showing, right?
And?

Don't you have some CNN to watch?
....lol, wat?

Don't you have some NRK to watch? :lol:

And according to an employer was definitely a white supremacist. (Seems the native thing was fake, his parents are supposedly Filipino and Italian.)

That's what I read on a reddit when I was looking for that close-up of the van, that he was part Italian and Filipino and not Native. There where no links or source to it, but it's pretty funny that that seems to be the case.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I was eating ice cream with my wife and kids in a shop yesterday and heard the news. So, legit rightwing nutjob, instead of leftwing conspiracy. And the bombs were legit.

Well, assholes gonna asshole. One down, millions more to go!

And this thread is glorious.

Also, who the hell doesn't know what firewater is? Watch a damn John Wayne movie. :tlol:

[Candy Kappa]

Maybe that Nazi that just shot up that synagogue and killed at least 8 people will be a crazy liberal Bernie bro, maybe...

[Autbot_Benz]

Maybe that Nazi that just shot up that synagogue and killed at least 8 people will be a crazy liberal Bernie bro, maybe...

nope supposedly this guy has no party affiliation . he is an Anti-Semitic conspiracy theory loving dude. Also the guy was white too.

https://heavy.com/news/2018/10/robert-bowers-politics-trump-republican-democrat/

[BartAllen]

ah, whataboutism.

When you can't refute deflect, it's a solid tactic.
the baseball shooter have his own thread, pretty certain he's been discussed before.

the ricin mailer, hmm. Is it "ricin to the republicans" or to people working in the government, like the CIA director, FBI chief, Secretary of the Air Force, Defense Secretary and President.

Didn't he also send threating letters to the Air Force last year, and threaten to kill Obama when he was President back in 2015?

And he has a criminal history with domestic abuse, seems to be it's not all that "evil liberal attacking the poor republicans", but you do seem to loooove bring this guy up.



And?


....lol, wat?

Don't you have some NRK to watch? :lol:



That's what I read on a reddit when I was looking for that close-up of the van, that he was part Italian and Filipino and not Native. There where no links or source to it, but it's pretty funny that that seems to be the case.
When I say your lenses are showing what I mean is you allow you bias to overwhelm your common sense. You dismiss the bad things the people who carry your banner do and focus on the things the other team does. Each side has its weirdos. If you were truly concerned you would be just as outraged about the shootings last year, or the ricin attacks. You're not. You're only interested in this debate because you think it gives you moral superiority. It doesn't. You're fake.

Again, both sides has its bad apples. These recent attacks are disgusting, but they don't speak about anyone other than the person that has committed them. Just as the guy who shot at the Republican congressmen last year spoke only of him.

The people that were targeted in the ricin attack were absolutely targeted because of their political affiliation. To say otherwise is disingenuous.

This guy is no more a statement about Trump than the shooter that shot at the republicans is a statement about the democrats. Crazy people do crazy things. This situation is just another example in a long line of batshit crazy.

[Leo656]

You make a really interesting point. This morning at the gym, one of my regulars, an older Jewish fella, asked me if I'd heard the news about the synagogue shooting. After agreeing it was horrible, he rolled his eyes and said, "And of course, they wanna make it all political. 'Whose side is he on, what was he trying to accomplish'... he was a f*cking nut! Listen, I'm about twice your age, maybe, but I remember that until recently, whenever things like this happened, it was because the guy was a nut and that was that. Now everything's a 'political statement'. I mean, does it really matter who the guy votes for? He was a nut who hated Jews, simple!" Then we went on about how so very often, when these things happen, the perpetrator had a history of lunatic behavior and an open hateful streak, which was dismissed by everyone until it was too late.

I'm a firm believer in the "Some people are just rotten" theory. They don't do bad things because of their political beliefs or whatever, that's an excuse they use to deflect blame from themselves. They do these things because they're Bad People, NOT "misled" or "misguided" ones. It takes a special kind of stupid to think that acting out with a gun or a bomb package is going to make things better for the disenfranchised. They weren't led astray by the politicians they identify with; they were crazy to start with and floated towards people who said what they wanted to hear, like everyone does. Difference being, most people aren't crazy.

[BartAllen]

You make a really interesting point. This morning at the gym, one of my regulars, an older Jewish fella, asked me if I'd heard the news about the synagogue shooting. After agreeing it was horrible, he rolled his eyes and said, "And of course, they wanna make it all political. 'Whose side is he on, what was he trying to accomplish'... he was a f*cking nut! Listen, I'm about twice your age, maybe, but I remember that until recently, whenever things like this happened, it was because the guy was a nut and that was that. Now everything's a 'political statement'. I mean, does it really matter who the guy votes for? He was a nut who hated Jews, simple!" Then we went on about how so very often, when these things happen, the perpetrator had a history of lunatic behavior and an open hateful streak, which was dismissed by everyone until it was too late.

I'm a firm believer in the "Some people are just rotten" theory. They don't do bad things because of their political beliefs or whatever, that's an excuse they use to deflect blame from themselves. They do these things because they're Bad People, NOT "misled" or "misguided" ones. It takes a special kind of stupid to think that acting out with a gun or a bomb package is going to make things better for the disenfranchised. They weren't led astray by the politicians they identify with; they were crazy to start with and floated towards people who said what they wanted to hear, like everyone does. Difference being, most people aren't crazy.

The guy has been a racist piece of **** for years. He's been arrested for doing racist garbage too -- Long before Trump took office.

[Leo656]

But... that's not as important as whose bumper sticker he displays. C'mon, guy.

[Prowler]

You make a really interesting point. This morning at the gym, one of my regulars, an older Jewish fella, asked me if I'd heard the news about the synagogue shooting. After agreeing it was horrible, he rolled his eyes and said, "And of course, they wanna make it all political. 'Whose side is he on, what was he trying to accomplish'... he was a f*cking nut! Listen, I'm about twice your age, maybe, but I remember that until recently, whenever things like this happened, it was because the guy was a nut and that was that. Now everything's a 'political statement'. I mean, does it really matter who the guy votes for? He was a nut who hated Jews, simple!" Then we went on about how so very often, when these things happen, the perpetrator had a history of lunatic behavior and an open hateful streak, which was dismissed by everyone until it was too late.

I'm a firm believer in the "Some people are just rotten" theory. They don't do bad things because of their political beliefs or whatever, that's an excuse they use to deflect blame from themselves. They do these things because they're Bad People, NOT "misled" or "misguided" ones. It takes a special kind of stupid to think that acting out with a gun or a bomb package is going to make things better for the disenfranchised. They weren't led astray by the politicians they identify with; they were crazy to start with and floated towards people who said what they wanted to hear, like everyone does. Difference being, most people aren't crazy.

Well yeah, obviously the guy was just a lunatic, but politicians are a bunch of snakes so ofc they'll twist it in order to gain votes.

[Leo656]

So do their followers, though. You always hear, "Just like a _____!" when these things happen.

Being soundly Pro-Whomever doesn't make you crazy; these kinds of people are crazy FIRST, they form a political ideology later.

But then... modern thinking is, "Nobody is Crazy, just Misguided," so obviously whatever talk radio they prefer is WHY they do these things. :roll:

Me, I'm a big fan of Personal Responsibility. You pick up a gun, you send a Funny package in the mail, YOU'RE responsible. But that's an idea that's going out of fashion.

[PApagreg]

- That's against the rules, so don't do it.
Against who's rules, also I don't take orders from you.
- Hearing a lot about "stacked decks", which again, doesn't concern me. I've known too many people who personally went from Zero-To-Hero for me to have doubts about the merits of overcoming adversity on the way to a better life.
For every Zero-To-Hero stories there are a thousand more about people staying in their social situation and some that have them downgrade. Also your anecdotal evidence doesn't really debunk that its harder to not only make a living but climb up social ladders in the last 50 years.
Your "job scarcity" hypothesis assumes that every single person who was told, "Get a job doing X" actually went ahead and did so, when logically, it's implicitly understood that most of them wouldn't. Because again, people hate taking good advice.
So let me get this straight if people do follow your advice then job scarcity, if they don't then they can't support themselves. That sounds like a lose/lose situation, do you know the concept of a "good advice" is. Also most college students don't get useless degrees like sociology
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/students-at-most-colleges-dont-pick-useless-majors/
Also vocational schools also have their downsides too for example most of them aren't adaptable and get lost over time.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/06/the-downside-to-career-and-technical-education/529161/
Nobody I personally knew who went to vocational school is struggling, and most are thriving. I live in a part of the country where Big Pharma is a juggernaut. I can't speak to what's going on elsewhere. Again, not my immediate concern, as it doesn't affect me directly.
I wouldn't call earning less than 40 grand a year to be thriving especially again with higher prices in housing and medical bills.
I live in a part of the country where Big Pharma is a juggernaut. I can't speak to what's going on elsewhere. .
So why do you act like you do, whenever I bring up stuff that effects everyone in the country and you use anecdotal evidence in order to try to debunk my claims or underwhelm it by saying "Well I know people who are doing just fine" without any sense of nuance.
The danger when anyone speaks anecdotally is, some person is going to say, "OHHHH so it's all about YOU...." as a retort. No, it's not. My example was a perfect and clear illustrative example of how the system doesn't work the way it's supposed to, and we prioritize "need" based on sympathy rather than merit.
Again one person doesn't really reflect the whole system.
Snip
You say that we should't listen to illegal immigrants sob story but you give me a sob story to show how bad the system is. Also I don't need to experience what ever you experience to see how badly the decked is stacked I evidence and citations, here are some if you want to learn something.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/06/us-house-prices-are-going-to-rise-at-twice-the-speed-of-inflation-and-pay-reuters-poll.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-has-increased-from-1988-to-2018.html
https://health.usnews.com/health-care/articles/2018-03-29/poll-americans-fear-crippling-medical-bills-more-than-illness
Again, I'm sorry that the two best examples of how sh*tty the system is, and how completely slanted it is, happen to involve me and/or members of my immediate family. The fact that you have a problem with what I believe, or even with me as a person shouldn't invalidate that these things happened, they continue to happen to other people who deserve better, and that they really shouldn't be allowed to happen. A wandering band of moochers gets to trade Sad Tales for room & board, while so many veterans who've served overseas get to sleep on a street corner. Nothing about that is right.
There are Mexican kids who get separated from their parents for wanting a better life yet you call them moochers and again you aren't the one to criticize people listening to "Sad Tales" when you have given me nothing but "Sad Tales" also if you are honestly sad about the veterans getting treated like crap you would blame the systems at be that spend money taking care of them instead of us getting into pointless wars and buying stuff they nobody needs or just wants to feed the military industry complex.
If they're so dissatisfied, let them simply go back to their country, start a revolution, and Be The Change. They won't, because trading on sympathy requires infinitely less effort, and we reward them for that.
How are they going to start a revolution with nothing, you do remember that America is a country with a huge history of immigrants wanting a better life right.
Maintaining a potent military is infinitely more important than handing out money to people who don't want to earn it. Most of our current technology was initially developed through various military research, for one thing.
Except we barely spend it on research most of it is spent on tanks and jets we barely use. Don't believe me look at how China is succeeding in making a railgun. Keep in mind China only has a fraction of the military budget we have.
https://taskandpurpose.com/china-electromagnetic-railgun-deployment/
Who creates these "inescapable situations"? I'm genuinely curious. All problem have solutions; it's just that very often, that solution is painful and at complete odds with what we want. But, that's called Life. "I really don't like being caught in this bear trap, but I REALLY don't want to lose my hand getting out." Well, someone has some thinking to do, then. One of two things is going to happen, both directly involving how acceptable the situation is to the person in it. They will NOT change the situation by repeatedly calling it "unfair"; that can be said for certain.ALL situations are "escapable"; sometimes, you have to hack through bone. That's Life.
To answer your bear trap analogy you take the third option and push the lever that frees your leg and go to the doctor. You don't have to bullhead every situation and sometimes the easier path is the better one.
You'll have an impossible time convincing me, ever, that anyone, anywhere, either Needs or Deserves children. One look at the world should be more than enough to convince anyone that dumping more mouths into the zoo is irresponsible, reckless, and selfish. Repeat: I find having kids to be a supremely selfish decision and most of those people would do better for everyone by adopting a pet from a shelter. Having kids ruins multiple lives over several generations. Nobody should do it. Especially anybody without a 6-figure income and a stable home... which is what is scientifically proven fundamentally necessary to actually raise a kid to not be a complete failure. And even then, it's 60/40.
Okay you do know the human race needs to continue right, Japan right now is following your example and their work population is aging more and their economy is in shambles. Its kinda funny I actually hate it when people tell others that they should have kids but you are on the opposite of the spectrum and I find you equally as wrong.
- Well, we're not quite working people literally to death in the coal mines at the moment, so until we are, there's little need for false equivalence.
No but people are avoiding hospitals and killing themselves over student debt, so not that much a false equivalence.
Anyway, I think "We agree on nothing" is probably a good place to leave it. Which is fine. I've explained my position, you've done yours, and I promise that neither of us is going to budge. I'm sorry that you don't seem to believe in the idea that ultimately You and Only You are responsible for your life, but I promise you it's true.
You Promise, I have given you evidence and citation and all of you given me is a "Promise", promises mean jack my friend.
The whole "stacked deck" thing is too much of a victim mentality for me to buy into. If you really buy that kind of thinking, you'll definitely have something to point fingers at whenever you don't get your way, but you ultimately won't be very successful in life, because life doesn't ultimately work that way. Redistribution of wealth doesn't work. Rewarding people for failure or bad choices doesn't work.
Look at literally every developed country in the world and see how wrong you are.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/080616/6-countries-virtually-free-college-tuition.asp
https://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/countries-with-universal-healthcare-by-date/
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/these-countries-have-the-highest-quality-of-life
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by _income_equality

TLDR Work smarter not harder, instead of telling people "You should work harder" how about make it easier for them to learn a new skill or trade and support themselves. There is nothing wrong with fixing the system to benefit the people

[PApagreg]

So do their followers, though. You always hear, "Just like a _____!" when these things happen.

Being soundly Pro-Whomever doesn't make you crazy; these kinds of people are crazy FIRST, they form a political ideology later.

But then... modern thinking is, "Nobody is Crazy, just Misguided," so obviously whatever talk radio they prefer is WHY they do these things. :roll:

Me, I'm a big fan of Personal Responsibility. You pick up a gun, you send a Funny package in the mail, YOU'RE responsible. But that's an idea that's going out of fashion.
When the last school shooting happen you crapped on an entire generation of young people just because of what two people did, so why didn't they get the "Personal Responsibility worldview. Seems like your the one who is helping making said concept out of fashioned.

[Prowler]

So do their followers, though. You always hear, "Just like a _____!" when these things happen.

Being soundly Pro-Whomever doesn't make you crazy; these kinds of people are crazy FIRST, they form a political ideology later.

But then... modern thinking is, "Nobody is Crazy, just Misguided," so obviously whatever talk radio they prefer is WHY they do these things. :roll:

Me, I'm a big fan of Personal Responsibility. You pick up a gun, you send a Funny package in the mail, YOU'RE responsible. But that's an idea that's going out of fashion.
Yeah, I hear you.

Many people are loyal to political parties as if they were sports teams.

[Leo656]

Okay you do know the human race needs to continue right

No, I don't know that and am still waiting to be convinced. You, personally, aren't doing a very good job.

Look buddy, it's clear we disagree on a lot of things, and I already said, that's where we ought'a leave it. For one thing, the circle jerk with you is giving me a headache, on account of your extreme run-on sentences, lack of proper punctuation, grammar, etc., and further, you've already made your point: The government needs to give everyone everything they ask for. To which I say, "No, they don't, you're rooting for the creation of a permanent underclass of victims and welfare recipients." If you think that's great, good for you. You'll most likely think otherwise with a few years of life experience.

"My anecdotes (cited or personal) are more meaningful than your anecdotes." That's literally your entire argument. Sorry guy. Weak.

I can already see this is going to descend into personal attacks if it continues, which is why I strongly suggested that we simply agree to disagree. For one thing, I make it a point not to get into lengthy philosophical debates with people lacking in life experience, because it's exhausting when people who haven't been through their share yet start talking about how things "Ought to be."

You're NOT going to persuade me to adopt your way of thinking, young man. And it's clear that it works the same in reverse. Which is why I suggested we avoid each other. You're apparently incapable of that, so I'm forewarning you, it's not going to be good if it continues. Everything's already been said. Move along.

It's like your entire thing is trying to prove I'm a cold, heartless person who thinks people should only care about themselves. Brother, you don't have to "prove" that, I'll openly GIVE you that, for free. :lol: I don't know what you think you're actually going to accomplish, otherwise. Just arguing for the sake of it? Not interested.
----------------

The kids who did the shootings are responsible for what they did, AND young people are maladjusted pussies who can't handle even the slightest disappointment. Two things can be true at once.

Since you didn't take the hint, I retract my earlier well-wishes; not only do I hope the Forces of Evil maintain clarity on the way to your house, I also hope their GPS shows them the fastest route without tolls. :trazz:

[BartAllen]

Against who's rules, also I don't take orders from you.

For every Zero-To-Hero stories there are a thousand more about people staying in their social situation and some that have them downgrade. Also your anecdotal evidence doesn't really debunk that its harder to not only make a living but climb up social ladders in the last 50 years.

So let me get this straight if people do follow your advice then job scarcity, if they don't then they can't support themselves. That sounds like a lose/lose situation, do you know the concept of a "good advice" is. Also most college students don't get useless degrees like sociology
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/students-at-most-colleges-dont-pick-useless-majors/
Also vocational schools also have their downsides too for example most of them aren't adaptable and get lost over time.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/06/the-downside-to-career-and-technical-education/529161/

I wouldn't call earning less than 40 grand a year to be thriving especially again with higher prices in housing and medical bills.

So why do you act like you do, whenever I bring up stuff that effects everyone in the country and you use anecdotal evidence in order to try to debunk my claims or underwhelm it by saying "Well I know people who are doing just fine" without any sense of nuance.

Again one person doesn't really reflect the whole system.

You say that we should't listen to illegal immigrants sob story but you give me a sob story to show how bad the system is. Also I don't need to experience what ever you experience to see how badly the decked is stacked I evidence and citations, here are some if you want to learn something.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/06/us-house-prices-are-going-to-rise-at-twice-the-speed-of-inflation-and-pay-reuters-poll.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/how-much-college-tuition-has-increased-from-1988-to-2018.html
https://health.usnews.com/health-care/articles/2018-03-29/poll-americans-fear-crippling-medical-bills-more-than-illness

There are Mexican kids who get separated from their parents for wanting a better life yet you call them moochers and again you aren't the one to criticize people listening to "Sad Tales" when you have given me nothing but "Sad Tales" also if you are honestly sad about the veterans getting treated like crap you would blame the systems at be that spend money taking care of them instead of us getting into pointless wars and buying stuff they nobody needs or just wants to feed the military industry complex.

How are they going to start a revolution with nothing, you do remember that America is a country with a huge history of immigrants wanting a better life right.

Except we barely spend it on research most of it is spent on tanks and jets we barely use. Don't believe me look at how China is succeeding in making a railgun. Keep in mind China only has a fraction of the military budget we have.
https://taskandpurpose.com/china-electromagnetic-railgun-deployment/

To answer your bear trap analogy you take the third option and push the lever that frees your leg and go to the doctor. You don't have to bullhead every situation and sometimes the easier path is the better one.

Okay you do know the human race needs to continue right, Japan right now is following your example and their work population is aging more and their economy is in shambles. Its kinda funny I actually hate it when people tell others that they should have kids but you are on the opposite of the spectrum and I find you equally as wrong.

No but people are avoiding hospitals and killing themselves over student debt, so not that much a false equivalence.

You Promise, I have given you evidence and citation and all of you given me is a "Promise", promises mean jack my friend.

Look at literally every developed country in the world and see how wrong you are.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/080616/6-countries-virtually-free-college-tuition.asp
https://truecostblog.com/2009/08/09/countries-with-universal-healthcare-by-date/
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/these-countries-have-the-highest-quality-of-life
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by _income_equality

TLDR Work smarter not harder, instead of telling people "You should work harder" how about make it easier for them to learn a new skill or trade and support themselves. There is nothing wrong with fixing the system to benefit the people
They choose those jobs. Those stats are currently changing. The fastest growing college graduate is hispanic women. Keep cherry picking stats that fulfill your ******** though.

Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. Even the sources on the wikipedia site don't account for said income inequality. Income inequality has far more to do with personal choices.

Oh, and if the income equality was SOOO bad, as you say, then why do these economic migrants risk death to come to these oppressive western society? It's almost like real life EASILY refutes all your sophist nonsense.

And no one is avoiding hospitals. Getting medical insurance through one's college is easy. I was able to get coverage in college. I'm one of those marginalized people you're talking about too. I know, I know. I don't agree with your BS, so it's just easier to ignore me (reality) than refute my claims. You lose.

It is funny that you cry about Mexican kids when A LITERAL MEXICAN is telling you you're wrong. Oh well. Keep living in your echochamber.

20 years ago your stats would make a little more stats. I vaguely remember reading that only about 15 percent of latinos entered a college level program. Today, About 30 percent of Latinas age 25-30 have graduated with a associates or higher. White women only account for 40. The gaps you're talking about are going away, and have been for the past 10 years.

But keep talking about outdated stats. I'm glad we have a white savior like you (sarcasm).

The way you talk about my people is so condescending and disrespectful. It's almost like you're saying that if not for you white saviors that us poor Mexicans wouldn't be able to wipe ourselves. Do you not see how ****** that is? It's really messed up that you think the way you do.

I'd ask you to really evaluate you own ideology and to look at reality for what it actually is but I know you aren't capable of it.

[Sumac]

There are Mexican kids who get separated from their parents for wanting a better life yet you call them moochers and again you aren't the one to criticize people listening to "Sad Tales" when you have given me nothing but "Sad Tales" also if you are honestly sad about the veterans getting treated like crap you would blame the systems at be that spend money taking care of them instead of us getting into pointless wars and buying stuff they nobody needs or just wants to feed the military industry complex.
The difference is illegal immigrants has no business to demand anything from the alien country.

How are they going to start a revolution with nothing, you do remember that America is a country with a huge history of immigrants wanting a better life right.
And most of them worked for their better life.
They didn't hoped for "hand me downs from the government".

Okay you do know the human race needs to continue right, Japan right now is following your example and their work population is aging more and their economy is in shambles. Its kinda funny I actually hate it when people tell others that they should have kids but you are on the opposite of the spectrum and I find you equally as wrong.
Situation in Japan has nothing to do with what Leo have said.
If you wanted to make an example, you would've been better to talk about Western countries.
And even than, it's slightly different.

No but people are avoiding hospitals and killing themselves over student debt, so not that much a false equivalence.
Actually it is.

TLDR Work smarter not harder, instead of telling people "You should work harder" how about make it easier for them to learn a new skill or trade and support themselves. There is nothing wrong with fixing the system to benefit the people
What you propose is not to make it simpler, but handle them everything without them even lifting a finger.
It's not how it works. One must deserve something to receive anything.
Your ideal world will lead to stagnation of the humanity and degeneration. Basically WALL*E version of humans.

[BartAllen]

There is a difference between earning citizenship and just showing up and demanding it. I have no respect or sympathy that do the latter.

If you break the law you should be punished. The kids being separated from their parents (if they aren't child sex slaves - part of the reason for the separation) is part of the punishment. If a guy commits murder and he's a parent, it's not like his kids go to prison with him.

If you essentially break and enter you're going to get in trouble. That's what is happening at the border. They're literally breaking into our country.

The funny thing is Mexico has strict requirements for becoming a citizen. They deport illegals as well. Or, if there is money in play, they look the other way when a caravan of migrants is passing through. I won't even go into the fact that the cartel's use these migrant caravans to funnel child sex slaves, drugs and weapons into the country.

The worst part is what Papegreg is proposing would turn America into another Mexico. With nothing but MASSIVE amounts of poorly educated citizens at the bottom of the stack with a very small group of people living at the top. The system he wants would overtax the hospitals and people would die in the streets (I've seen dead bodies in the streets when I would spend time in Mexico as a kid). Their homeless die in the streets everyday; Our homeless are overweight.

Oh, and there are now photos of Cesar Sayok with a few prominent liberal financiers in Florida. Interesting.

[Sumac]

It's ironic that whatever lefties propose always ALWAYS leads to the Soviet Union like state: a lot of poor citizens at the bottom, with no chances to rise above their level, controlled by small party of ultra-wealthy bureaucrats at the top.

[John Pannozzi]

It would be nice if he did that, but he can't for the exact same reason Democrats won't crack down on illegals: You can't attack a big chunk of your support base and expect to stay in power.

Remember: Red or Blue, it's NOT about making the country or the world a better place; it's about power and control. You establish power by determining which group of rubes are easiest to manipulate. You maintain power by continuing to manipulate those people. You LOSE power by telling those people, "What you're doing is wrong, please f*ck off."

Consider how fast the Kennedys started disappearing once they started making noise about "organized crime", after the mob got them into office in the first place. You don't sh*t where you eat.

I agree, it would be great if Trump took a stand against his more ridiculous supporters, but no politician would ever slit their own throat like that. I wouldn't expect any of them to. That would require integrity, which is the first thing they surgically remove from you once you decide to enter politics.

For what its worth, Trump has taken potshots at the Koch brothers:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trump-koch-brothers-twitter-republican-donors-conservative-gop-us-president-a8471051.html

[Andrew NDB]

If you break the law you should be punished. The kids being separated from their parents (if they aren't child sex slaves - part of the reason for the separation) is part of the punishment.

That's one component. The word from most Border Patrol, however, is that about 80% of the children don't even show up with their parents, or instead with adults that can't prove they're the parents (if you're going to try and enter and then seek asylum... surely you can be bothered to at least bring the right paperwork/identification?). Then it's on us to pay a lot of money playing detective to track down the parents in some ass-end of Mexico, if we can even find them at all.

Yet we're the bad guys. Utter nonsense.

[BartAllen]

It's ironic that whatever lefties propose always ALWAYS leads to the Soviet Union like state: a lot of poor citizens at the bottom, with no chances to rise above their level, controlled by small party of ultra-wealthy bureaucrats at the top.

It has happened EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The worst part is that people think socialism is somehow better than capitalism. Where has it ever been better? It hasn't. This crap these folks talk about is a fairytale.

Here's the thing, Trump does speak out against the alt-right asshats. He disavowed David Duke. The media doesn't report on it because it doesn't fit the narrative they're trying to push. He spoke out against the bomber during and after it was happening. Cesar Sayok is an extremist; and unfortunately, those types of extremists are going to use whatever means to justify their insane beliefs. Cesar Sayok wasn't anymore a true Republican than Jihadists are truly Muslim. We should NOT make judgements about an entire group of people based on the actions of a few bad apples.

People like Papagreg and Candy Kapa want you to judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a horrible few. I refuse to judge people like that and neither should you. This doesn't have anything to do with Trump or the average Trump voter. I know people from all walks of life that voted for Trump, Black people, Asian people, Latinos and White folks. None of them would do any of these horrible acts, but they are blamed for said acts because it's politically expedient. It's not about the truth for these folks. It's about what gives them power and the power to control the narrative.

[Sumac]

People like Papagreg and Candy Kapa want you to judge an entire group of people based on the actions of a horrible few. I refuse to judge people like that and neither should you. This doesn't have anything to do with Trump or the average Trump voter. I know people from all walks of life that voted for Trump, Black people, Asian people, Latinos and White folks. None of them would do any of these horrible acts, but they are blamed for said acts because it's politically expedient. It's not about the truth for these folks. It's about what gives them power and the power to control the narrative.
The funny thing, that, if by chance, Trump and his cronies would received some bombs, those same people would either be praising wannabe-terrorist or stated that "one rotten apple doesn't make all anti-Trump people terrorists".
It's almost like lefties are susceptible to the double standards and hypocrisy no less than righties...

I actually have seen. We all have a chance to see it.
Remember, when Gunn was fired from Disney? A lot of left people were crying that Disney should have let him continue to work, since "people can change and we shouldn't just people by stuff they have said or did 10 years ago".
However, when someone who lefties don't like is blamed for doing or saying something questionable 10 years ago, they are immediately demanding to ostracize that person from every line of the job forever.

But, of course, lefties are on the right side of history...
So far they are confirming that when you go "too left" you will become indistinguishable from the right in your lust for power, hypocrisy and totalitarian rhetoric.

[sdp]

The funny thing is Mexico has strict requirements for becoming a citizen. They deport illegals as well. Or, if there is money in play, they look the other way when a caravan of migrants is passing through. I won't even go into the fact that the cartel's use these migrant caravans to funnel child sex slaves, drugs and weapons into the country.

The worst part is what Papegreg is proposing would turn America into another Mexico. With nothing but MASSIVE amounts of poorly educated citizens at the bottom of the stack with a very small group of people living at the top. The system he wants would overtax the hospitals and people would die in the streets (I've seen dead bodies in the streets when I would spend time in Mexico as a kid). Their homeless die in the streets everyday; Our homeless are overweight.

A lot of misinformation in your post, It is not too difficult to become a citizen, weapons actually come from the US to Mexico not the other way around, Education levels are below first world countries but not as low as your post would imply and for example Mexico graduates more engineers than first world countries the problem being they're bribed to move to other first world countries. That's a problem since they need engineers, the other problem is wealth is not distributed properly but Mexico is a rich country. People dead on the streets :lol: where did you live? Such lies, don't exaggerate or use shoddy statistics about a country you don't understand since people believe stuff like this.

I don't really care to debate the thread, just needed to clear up all these FAKE news a bit.

[BartAllen]

A lot of misinformation in your post, It is not too difficult to become a citizen, weapons actually come from the US to Mexico not the other way around, Education levels are below first world countries but not as low as your post would imply and for example Mexico graduates more engineers than first world countries the problem being they're bribed to move to other first world countries. That's a problem since they need engineers, the other problem is wealth is not distributed properly but Mexico is a rich country. People dead on the streets :lol: where did you live? Such lies, don't exaggerate or use shoddy statistics about a country you don't understand since people believe stuff like this.

I don't really care to debate the thread, just needed to clear up all these FAKE news a bit.

I'm Mexican. There would be dead homeless people on the streets. It wasn't an everyday occurrence, but I did PERSONALLY witness it. People that looked like living skeletons dead on a corner. Granted, this wasn't happening in Mexico city, but it was absolutely a part of life in the little pueblos. Between that and the people that were messed up from the rampant drug use and prostitution dead bodies were a part of life. Especially in places like Tijuana and just south of Laredo and other border towns due to the violence from cartels.

And yes, while we traffic a lot of guns down there they also send a lot our way, Unmarked and nontraceable. Happens more than you think or is reported

Mexico has a lot of wealth at the very top but due to liberal policies that negatively impact the everyday person MY PEOPLE typically live in terrible conditions compared to the US.


Their education system is a lot more laxed than ours too. What they get down there as a college degree is typically on par with our associates Their masters is the equivalent to our Bachelors.


Oh and I lived in a pueblo outside of Guadalajara. It was a beautiful area, but because of the cartels and other drug related activity seeing a dead body every now and again wasn't all that uncommon.

I'm not saying it's impossible t become a citizen of the country. I'm saying that it's not just a matter of walking in and getting benefits. You have to do things. To add to that, if you're an illegal caught in the country they will deport you.

:o Oh, and can you provide even a shred of evidence that our countries are 'bribing' college graduates from Mexico to come to the United States. The only person spreading fake news is you.
:lol:

No fake news here homie.

Oh, and here's an article talking about the homelessness problem in Mexico:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3313418/I-sell-body-perverts-make-dollar-Mexico-City-s-homeless-rat-children-sleep-SEWERS-sniff-glue-forget-horrible-things-food.html


Apparently it is bad in The federal district as well.

Now, I will agree with you in part. Things ARE improving down there. Their education systems are getting better. That is in large part to the US sending entire sectors of employment down there, though. I'm hoping Mexico will become the next India are far as its tech sector is concerned.

[Leo656]

I think it's implied already that certain people are going to strongly disagree in this thread. I don't think calling them out by name helps anything, though. Let's not put words in peoples' mouths; this is kind of inflammatory already, y'know?

It has happened EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The worst part is that people think socialism is somehow better than capitalism. Where has it ever been better? It hasn't. This crap these folks talk about is a fairytale.


The thing is, most of them will give you a story about how it would work better for THEM, individually and specifically. But then you take those things, "blow them up" to apply to millions of people, and suddenly those things aren't feasible anymore.

Which is why any serious economist will tell you that you have to ignore the emotional factors when deciding on policy; everyone has the "sobbiest" sob story, which in their minds makes them take priority over everyone else, but the job is to start with "Everyone else" first and work backwards. That's why "Sympathy makes bad Policy."

Even in a system that generally works best for the majority, you're still going to have a lot of people struggle because no system is perfect. You have to look at Opportunities For Advancement, and this is still the country with the highest number of "Poor Folk Who Became Millionaires" pound-for-pound in the world. In America, you have the absolute best chance of being Nobody and Becoming Somebody. Your odds are much smaller elsewhere, generally speaking.

A lot of things people want are "On Paper" ideas. They sound great but don't work well in practice.

EDIT: Sorry you had such a rough go for a while, BA. Hopefully your life is much smoother now and going forward.

[BartAllen]

Oh, one other thing. If Mexico or Central America weren't all that bad, why do they CONSTANTLY try to come into the US? We have more than 20,000,000 illegal aliens in the country right now. Most of whom are from Mexico and Central America. Now, I don't blame them, I've lived in one of those countries, the US is a paradise in comparison. I don't blame them for wanting to get out of there.

If what I'm saying is 'fake news' why are they fleeing ALL THE TIME? It's almost like my personal experiences aren't outside the norm.

Don't even get me started on how Mexico's health care system is **** and that their entire energy sector is owned by the central government. It couldn't be terrible liberal policies that screwed the people over.


… but hey, I don't understand the country. :roll:

[sdp]

I'm Mexican. There would be dead homeless people on the streets. It wasn't an everyday occurrence, but I did PERSONALLY witness it. People that looked like living skeletons dead on a corner. Granted, this wasn't happening in Mexico city, but it was absolutely a part of life in the little pueblos. Between that and the people that were messed up from the rampant drug use and prostitution dead bodies were a part of life. Especially in places like Tijuana and just south of Laredo and other border towns due to the violence from cartels.

And yes, while we traffic a lot of guns down there they also send a lot our way, Unmarked and nontraceable. Happens more than you think or is reported

Mexico has a lot of wealth at the very top but due to liberal policies that negatively impact the everyday person MY PEOPLE typically live in terrible conditions compared to the US.


Their education system is a lot more laxed than ours too. What they get down there as a college degree is typically on par with our associates Their masters is the equivalent to our Bachelors.


Oh and I lived in a pueblo outside of Guadalajara. It was a beautiful area, but because of the cartels and other drug related activity seeing a dead body every now and again wasn't all that uncommon.

I'm not saying it's impossible t become a citizen of the country. I'm saying that it's not just a matter of walking in and getting benefits. You have to do things. To add to that, if you're an illegal caught in the country they will deport you.

:o Oh, and can you provide even a shred of evidence that our countries are 'bribing' college graduates from Mexico to come to the United States. The only person spreading fake news is you.
:lol:

No fake news here homie.

Oh, and here's an article talking about the homelessness problem in Mexico:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3313418/I-sell-body-perverts-make-dollar-Mexico-City-s-homeless-rat-children-sleep-SEWERS-sniff-glue-forget-horrible-things-food.html


Apparently it is bad in The federal district as well.

Now, I will agree with you in part. Things ARE improving down there. Their education systems are getting better. That is in large part to the US sending entire sectors of employment down there, though. I'm hoping Mexico will become the next India are far as its tech sector is concerned.

Being Mexican doesn't mean you understand the country unless you lived there enough time and recently.

Guns are illegal in mx and the easiest way to get them is from the us, they might send back the guns unmarked but they'd only be returning them. Yeah, the country deports people but so does any other, you can still find plenty of central american, haitian and south american undocumented immigrants living their daily life without problems. Becoming a citizen has rules but it's a lot easier than many countries as I mentioned and tons of people live with just passports and paying certain fee's to live there like many americans who go to retire.

You're also wrong on education, there are big problems but the equating the masters to a us bachelors is just silly. The requirements to graduate from High School are much higher than the average us one. Unless you're counting Diploma mills you're wrong. I didn't say just the US I said first world countries and I can give you tons of reliable links on those, here's one:
http://ciencia.unam.mx/leer/150/fuga_de_cerebros_la_diaspora_del_conocimiento

I mean, you're the one linking to a brittish tabloid, yeah the wealth gap is a huge problem and stories like those there can be tons but you can make a story like that from any major city in the world. I mean there is a war on drugs (started because of US pressure) but it's not the daily reality of the whole country, it's segmented to a few areas. Again, it's a complex country with many problems with no easy solutions however the way the media portrays it is also very wrong and people take the negatives of that and spread it around exaggerating the details which causes so many misconceptions about the country that I see every day it's crazy.

[BartAllen]

:lol:Being Mexican doesn't mean you understand the country unless you lived there enough time and recently.

Guns are illegal in mx and the easiest way to get them is from the us, they might send back the guns unmarked but they'd only be returning them. Yeah, the country deports people but so does any other, you can still find plenty of central american, haitian and south american undocumented immigrants living their daily life without problems. Becoming a citizen has rules but it's a lot easier than many countries as I mentioned and tons of people live with just passports and paying certain fee's to live there like many americans who go to retire.

You're also wrong on education, there are big problems but the equating the masters to a us bachelors is just silly. The requirements to graduate from High School are much higher than the average us one. Unless you're counting Diploma mills you're wrong. I didn't say just the US I said first world countries and I can give you tons of reliable links on those, here's one:
http://ciencia.unam.mx/leer/150/fuga_de_cerebros_la_diaspora_del_conocimiento

I mean, you're the one linking to a brittish tabloid, yeah the wealth gap is a huge problem and stories like those there can be tons but you can make a story like that from any major city in the world. I mean there is a war on drugs (started because of US pressure) but it's not the daily reality of the whole country, it's segmented to a few areas. Again, it's a complex country with many problems with no easy solutions however the way the media portrays it is also very wrong and people take the negatives of that and spread it around exaggerating the details which causes so many misconceptions about the country that I see every day it's crazy.

Here's what I see "blah blah blah blah a Mexican is saying something I don't like about the country he lived in at one point so I have to think up ways to tell a Mexican he is wrong about his own country blah blah blah"

I'm Mexican I've lived in the country. My lived experience trumps whatever nonsense you're trying to push. You can keep arguing with me all you'd like, but I'm right. It's that simple.

It's funny that you can dismiss my and other actual Mexicans (in the story I linked) because it doesn't suit your worldview. Maybe focus on your own situation before you try to tell me about mine. Anywho...

And yes, there are homeless people all over the world, but read the part that talks about the ratio of homeless youth. That's the part I'm referring to in that article. It's worse in that country. It just is.

Here is a big difference between the states and Mexico (This could have changed recently). You can drop out of school at any age there. Most of their better schools are similar to charter schools here. The only people benefiting from a 'quality 'education are the ones that are already wealthy. The public schools in Mexico are garbage compared to the states.

[sdp]

There's a reason Mexicans don't like chicanos, they don't understand the country or what it's really like to be Mexican.

[Andrew NDB]

You folks better watch out, though. According to James Cromwell, there will be blood in the streets if the democrats don't win these mid-terms:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/30/james-cromwell-actor-warns-of-revolution-there-wil/

[Sumac]

And how nerds with iPhones and rainbow hair will drawn streets in blood?
There won't be enough Xanax in the world to make those people to get out of their basements.

But on a serious notes, such statements should be persecuted by state as potential calls for riots and civil unrest.

[IndigoErth]

You folks better watch out, though. According to James Cromwell, there will be blood in the streets if the democrats don't win these mid-terms:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/30/james-cromwell-actor-warns-of-revolution-there-wil/
And at the rate things are going, actual working bombs or shootings from conservatives/republicans if dems do.

[ZariusTwo]

You folks better watch out, though. According to James Cromwell, there will be blood in the streets if the democrats don't win these mid-terms:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/oct/30/james-cromwell-actor-warns-of-revolution-there-wil/

That'll do capitalist pigs. That'll do.

[BartAllen]

There's a reason Mexicans don't like chicanos, they don't understand the country or what it's really like to be Mexican.

So now you resort to ignorance and racism. Cool story, bro.

Everything else you wrote can now be easily ignored.

The two main reasons to ignore your silliness:
1. You don't even understand what it means to be Mexican.
2. You're not Mexican.

Next you're going to tell me Canelo Alvarez isn't Mexican. LMAO.

I'm Mexican. I have Mexican citizenship (Dual citizenship). That's the only requirement to being Mexican. You can be black, white or brown (native blood). Or... a mixture of all three (Like me).

The FIRST mexican was the child of a Mayan woman and a Spanish conquistador. The word Mexico is derivative of Mestizo which means MIXED. Spanish itself is a european language. I could go on and on, but I won't because I don't want you to show anymore ignorance.

Now look. I get it. You want to win an argument over the internet because someone said some factual things you don't like. I understand that this matters to you. HOWEVER, I'm not wrong with anything I've said. I just got off the phone with a cousin that still lives in the Jalisco area. The things I talked about in my posts still happen. Is it as bad as it was in the 80's? No. Is it worse in other ways? Yes. The Cartels own the border towns. Homelessness is rampant in the country. There are jobs but the poor still generally suffer the most. The country has made some strides but it still have a LONG WAY TO GO.

Anyway. I'm done. I haven't said anything about the country that isn't true. You can continue with your feelings, but the facts don't care about your feelings. Have a good day.

Oh, and no one better send me a PM telling me I look like a mixture of Enrique Pena Nieto and Torbe.

Chicano itself isn't a bad term but the context in which you used it is bigoted. I have no time for that nonsense.

[IndigoErth]

Honestly, I'm kind of dumbfounded that as much as this country -- lets be honest -- likes to butt in and get involved in things elsewhere in the world, thinking we're trying to make the world a better place or get into battles that shouldn't involve us...why aren't we helping fellow Americans (albeit Central and/or Southern) to the south of us if they need a hand?

If a place is in bad enough shape that people are willing to try to walk that far to try to get away from it and get here, then instead of freaking out and fear mongering, why isn't this country choosing instead to work with them to try to help make that place better? Would it not be to our own benefit in the end, where illegal immigration is concerned, if we lent a hand in helping them to make their home countries better to the point that most don't want to leave?

[Andrew NDB]

Honestly, I'm kind of dumbfounded that as much as this country -- lets be honest -- likes to butt in and get involved in things elsewhere in the world, thinking we're trying to make the world a better place or get into battles that shouldn't involve us...why aren't we helping fellow Americans (albeit Central and/or Southern) to the south of us if they need a hand?

Because that's not a sustainable business model and sets a horrible precedent.

[sdp]

So now you resort to ignorance and racism. Cool story, bro.

Everything else you wrote can now be easily ignored.

The two main reasons to ignore your silliness:
1. You don't even understand what it means to be Mexican.
2. You're not Mexican.

Next you're going to tell me Canelo Alvarez isn't Mexican. LMAO.

I'm Mexican. I have Mexican citizenship (Dual citizenship). That's the only requirement to being Mexican. You can be black, white or brown (native blood). Or... a mixture of all three (Like me).

The FIRST mexican was the child of a Mayan woman and a Spanish conquistador. The word Mexico is derivative of Mestizo which means MIXED. Spanish itself is a european language. I could go on and on, but I won't because I don't want you to show anymore ignorance.

Now look. I get it. You want to win an argument over the internet because someone said some factual things you don't like. I understand that this matters to you. HOWEVER, I'm not wrong with anything I've said. I just got off the phone with a cousin that still lives in the Jalisco area. The things I talked about in my posts still happen. Is it as bad as it was in the 80's? No. Is it worse in other ways? Yes. The Cartels own the border towns. Homelessness is rampant in the country. There are jobs but the poor still generally suffer the most. The country has made some strides but it still have a LONG WAY TO GO.

Anyway. I'm done. I haven't said anything about the country that isn't true. You can continue with your feelings, but the facts don't care about your feelings. Have a good day.

Oh, and no one better send me a PM telling me I look like a mixture of Enrique Pena Nieto and Torbe.

Chicano itself isn't a bad term but the context in which you used it is bigoted. I have no time for that nonsense.

I don´t understand and can be easily ignored when obviously you have more credibility on what Mexican is even though you don't even know the origin of the coutries' name (http://edomex.gob.mx/significado_de_mexico) but you obviously have more credibility and make assumptions of mine including calling me a f-ggot. It's racists that Mexicans don't like the way chicanos talk about their country?

I'm not making any political points in this thread to care to win those arguments, I just corrected you on some points which you stopped replying to so I guess you are the one moving the goal post. I'm clearly not the emotional one over this, I just wanted to clear some misconceptions about Mexico and hopefully I did and people can look at INEGI (http://www.inegi.org.mx/) itself for references.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I personally do not believe in the arguement that "if you're not X group, you'll never understanding their suffering." Whether it be for Mexicans or any other group. It seems to be more of a silencing tactic by trying to guilt trip people rather than anything grounded in reason.

[IndigoErth]

Because that's not a sustainable business model and sets a horrible precedent.
But throwing a ton of money elsewhere, including into long wars in the Middle East, is?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

But throwing a ton of money elsewhere, including into long wars in the Middle East, is?

If a nation won't provide for its own citizens, helping even a neighbouring country is out of the question, let alone all of humanity.

[IndigoErth]

That would be included in helping their citizens fix what needs fixing. If their government needs to be overthrown, well, it wouldn't be a first time we had a hand in it. What, suddenly this country doesn't want to meddle? Do people here just quietly prefer having a "foe" to focus on by having illegals trying to get in? Whining and threats isn't going to stop the flow.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

But throwing a ton of money elsewhere, including into long wars in the Middle East, is?

Ah, but see, corporations and government contractors profit from that.

[BartAllen]

I don´t understand and can be easily ignored when obviously you have more credibility on what Mexican is even though you don't even know the origin of the coutries' name (http://edomex.gob.mx/significado_de_mexico) but you obviously have more credibility and make assumptions of mine including calling me a f-ggot. It's racists that Mexicans don't like the way chicanos talk about their country?

I'm not making any political points in this thread to care to win those arguments, I just corrected you on some points which you stopped replying to so I guess you are the one moving the goal post. I'm clearly not the emotional one over this, I just wanted to clear some misconceptions about Mexico and hopefully I did and people can look at INEGI (http://www.inegi.org.mx/) itself for references.

I didn't stop replying to them. I squashed your argument. You said that there weren't homeless in Mexico that it was a problem that is comparable to the rest of the world. I said that due to the large amounts of crime and legal prostitution that there is a higher incidence of homelessness and death in the country. You then went on some tirade about my 'racial purity' claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about and calling me a liar based on some BS to justify your stance. Which is still wrong, BTW.

Again. Nothing I have said is wrong.

I do love that you couldn't help to jump at the chance to prove me wrong because about the name origin - a little trap I laid for you to prove that you're just mad about the factual statements I made in earlier posts.

Again, You have no idea what you're talking about. And the irony of all this is you're also using racist nonsense and making claims about my racial purity as a way to dismiss my factual statements. Of course I knew the factual name origin of my country. lmao. Too easy.

The reason I won't let this go is because I'm not talking about an article I read, or some website. I'm talking about my lived expierence. Things I've seen with my own eyes. And that upset your feefees so you're doing everything you can as to try to prove me wrong. I'm not wrong. I'm talking about my lived experience.

Everything I wrote I can back up. I already have. You just move the goalposts and say that the evidence presented isn't good enough because they don't align with your misconceptions.

Again. I'm Mexican. I have Mexican citizenship. The fact that you keep calling me a chicano is racist. And where did I call you a ******? LMAO. Now you're just making **** up. lmao.

I personally do not believe in the argument that "if you're not X group, you'll never understanding their suffering." Whether it be for Mexicans or any other group. It seems to be more of a silencing tactic by trying to guilt trip people rather than anything grounded in reason.

Right. I'm only doing that because he is saying I'm not qualified to talk about the subject because I'm not a real mexican. I'm actually just using his BS tactics against him.

I'm not talking about supposition or guesswork. I'm talking about my lived experience things I've seen with my own eyes. I've seen far more homeless in Mexico than the US. I've seen dead bodies in Mexico because of cartel activity and other crimes. Then this dude comes into the thread and calls me a liar because I am talking about my lived experiences. He is the one using silencing tactics.

Now, if you want to talk about how homelessness is sort of different because of the difference in culture then I'm willing to listen. But to say that what I wrote earlier is wrong... No, that's your own bias.

The guy keeps using official government stats to prove something. Look, the government in Mexico is FAR more corrupt than the States. Do you really think they're going to talk about their problems if they're trying to attract foreign investors? Come on.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/12/26/corruption-is-mexicos-original-sin/

The country will not paint itself in a bad light because it wants to attract foreign investment.
https://en.portal.santandertrade.com/establish-overseas/mexico/foreign-investment

Another article talking about the homeless problem in mexico and how the police will arrest and detain them
http://www.ipsnews.net/2012/11/mexicos-homeless-are-targets-of-social-cleansing/

Was I a tad hyperbolic in my original post when I wrote that it was everyday? Yes. Did it still happen? Yes. I've never seen a dead body here in the states (Well one close to the border). I saw either dead, or close to it everyday in Mexico. How is that all a lie? I SAW IT! FFS.

When you see a man or woman on the corner that looks like a skeleton because they haven't had food in a while that's a problem. That's not happening in the US.

It even talks about how the cartels are negatively impacting the country. It's almost like Drugs and extreme violence are a big part of the problem for Mexico.

[IndigoErth]

Ah, but see, corporations and government contractors profit from that.
Exactly. I suppose the likes of China are generally always the cheaper export for jobs?

Not that I'd want too much employment here being sent elsewhere, but if they want these jobs and they'd stay there to do them, in return for lower production costs for the U.S... I could deal with that.

[sdp]

Mods can still read previous edited posts so they can see 'owning putos' on it, you're also now putting words in my mouth now like I said there are no homeless and spinning the things to your liking. I just came to correct some misinformation of the country. Hopefully others can do their own research if they're really interested in the topic.

[BartAllen]

Mods can still read previous edited posts so they can see 'owning putos' on it, you're also now putting words in my mouth now like I said there are no homeless and spinning the things to your liking. I just came to correct some misinformation of the country. Hopefully others can do their own research if they're really interested in the topic.

Puto's literal translation means F**k
It's Mexican meaning, what we call each other (you'd know this if you were actually Mexican) all the time is a jovial way of referring to someone that is ignorant. Or wimpy. I'm calling you ignorant. If I wanted to call you a homosexual I'd call you a marica or maricon. But being that I'm not a homophobe and I don't refer to Homosexuals with those hateful words you can safely assume that I was calling you ignorant. Again, you'd know this if you actually ever spent time in Mexico.

Ah... In South American countries it can mean homosexual. I did not know that as I AM NOT A SOUTH AMERICAN.

For example. Saying I like Slag in the US probably means you like a dinobot. In England, on the other hand, it means something else entirely. But I don't worry about the **** that happens in the UK because I'm not from that place. It's not my business.

And I suspect that you know that. Spanish is different depending on the country of origin. There are plenty of words that mean different things. Regla can mean ruler but it can also refer to a woman's time of month. I only know that because I dated a Puerto Rican girl who once told me she was having her regla and I had no idea how she was having her ruler.

I also suggest others do their own research. Look at the articles I provided. I'd even say to look at spd's as well, but just realize that a country that is largely dependent on FDI and has massive corruption (read about it) that they're not going to paint themselves in a bad light.

Again. I'm Mexican. I love Mexico. I just got back from Guadalajara a few months back. I can't spend as much time there as I'd like because of other commitments. It's a wonderful country with a great people and culture. It just has its downsides as well, unfortunately.

Some of what SPD wrote is somewhat true. The education system has started to model itself of of our model (the US) and has improved because of it.
The nature of the homelessness is slightly different because of cultural differences. But the cartels, rampant drug abuse and legal prostitution has caused the country tremendous problems. Seeing a dead body on the street, while not an everyday occurance, still happens often. Which breaks my heart honestly as those are my people that are dying.

Mexico is a country of laws and it does have a strict outline for becoming a citizen. It also deports people living in the country illegally. (How that's somehow a lie I'll never know). However, being a legal resident is different from being a citizen. Becoming a citizen is hard. Being a legal resident is somewhat easier, still not as easy as showing up and having a baby in the country, though.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/border-baja-california/sd-me-homicides-tijuana-20180102-story.html

Here's an article talking about the record high death rates in Tijuana -- a border town. Again, still failing to see how anything I wrote is factually incorrect.

The last time I was in TJ... I want to say 3 years ago (I lived closer to the border at that time) I wasn't allowed to walk down a street because there were 4 headless dudes that had just been killed because of turf wars between the factions. But again, I don't know what I'm talking about.

I could also go into details about how I had a family member murdered in Mexico by her Husband and because he was from a wealthy family he only served 10 months in prison, but I won't because I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm a chicano or some other ignorant racist garbage.

[Candy Kappa]

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/puto

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/puto

I learned all my Spanish swearing from John Wayne movies. :tlol:

Hijo de la puta!

[Candy Kappa]

I learned all my Spanish swearing from John Wayne movies. :tlol:

Hijo de la puta!

Probably more entertaining then school, I managed to sneak off from the mandatory third language class.

Kinda regret it now, maybe I should watch some John Wayne :lol:

[BartAllen]

http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/puto

Oh lawdy. Another person that doesn't speak the language or know local dialects trying to come in with a definition.

Again. Different dialects for different countries. A male prostitute does not mean a GAY male prostitute anyway. How do you know that male prostitute isn't out charming nice looking women like deuce bigalow.

Puto, in MEXICO does not mean a homosexual. It means a wimpy or ignorant person. I guess at most it means a male prostitute (that is the first time I've heard of that). That doesn't imply gay person either. Mighty fine leap. Haven't I already squashed you anyway. Don't try to pile on.

Now let's look at the definition of Maricon on spanishdict.com...
http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/maricon

Again, that's the word that is used as a negative reference to homosexuals. Puto means punk (I guess that's loosely a male prostitute) wimpy and/or ignorant. I've always known it to mean ignorant or stupid -- In Mexico anyway. Nice try, though.

And again, Puto's literal translation: Means F**king. I have never heard that word as a reference to homosexuals. Nice deflecting tactics though.

Apparently it means that in South American countries. I'm not South American. Slag isn't a bad word in American English either.

I'm still waiting on a response to our earlier conversation, though, Candy. I notice you don't have anything to backup your claims. I also now assume that you sent this poor fellow SPD into the conversation. To bad he isn't a Mexican and doesn't know what he's talking about. What you did is like having an Australian talk about Canada's political situation when the Australian only has a very surface level understanding of Canada.

I do love the Alinsky tactics though. You can't refute anything I'm saying so you focus on a trivial part of what I said as a way to silence me. Nice. You even go so far as to misunderstand the word I used (ignorant in mexico) and try to make it into something it isn't. You're an outsider looking in. You don't understand the culture or its people. So of course you come to the WRONG conclusion.

I learned all my Spanish swearing from John Wayne movies. :tlol:

Hijo de la puta!

Now the way Puta is used there literally translates to Son of a bitch.
Again, that term is not used in Mexico. I remember the first time heard it I though cause it sounded weird... Son of the dumbass? What?
Then it was explained to me that it means Son of a bitch. I guess it can mean son of a W***e now.

I will apologize since I was ignorant to the fact that Puto, in certain countries (not Mexico), can be used as slang for a gay person. That's the ONLY part I apologize for, though. The rest I stand on. Had I known that I would have used the word pendejo.

I learned all my Spanish swearing from John Wayne movies. :tlol:

Hijo de la puta!

Probably more entertaining then school, I managed to sneak off from the mandatory third language class.

Kinda regret it now, maybe I should watch some John Wayne :lol:

Let me further educate you.
https://www.lingoda.com/en/blog/spanish-words-multiple-meanings

Those are nice words. I'm currently looking for one with the bad words.

Don't want you crybullies having a heart attack on tumblr.

Oh, and the only person here who has used a bigoted word is SDP. Chicano in Mexico is used by segments of the populace to dismiss people they view as outsiders/inferiors (the racism kind of goes the opposite direction with the lighter skinned folks usually being on the bad end). Don't see you jumping on that one Candy. It's almost like you're selective in your outrage. Like you're only concerned with virtue signaling. Chicano is a nicer way of calling someone a Pocho. I suspect you know that too, SDP.

So when you say I don't know something or that Mexicans don't like chicanos. You're the only one who has been bigoted here.

There's a reason Mexicans don't like chicanos, they don't understand the country or what it's really like to be Mexican.

The context in which you used this word is bigoted. The others might not understand it, but I do. Don't try to deny it either.

So when I used Puto (in the mexican meaning of the word) I was only using it in reference to your ignorant and bigoted statement from earlier. I was in no way referring to you as a homosexual. Which I know you know. You're just jumping on anything to get at me because I've proven you wrong now a number of times. That's why I wrote "Owning a puto" As in I'm owning an idiot. Not I'm owning a homosexual. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Don't try to deny that you used Chicano in a pejorative sense. You can try to walk it back if you want, but If I'm guilty for puto you're guilty for your word too.

[Refractive Reflections]

And at the rate things are going, actual working bombs or shootings from conservatives/republicans if dems do.

lol, there's so many documented unhinged attacks and threats (https://www.attacksontrumpsupporters.com/) from the left, it's the best advertisement the GOP has against the radicalized left:

hlMIyae9-ZU

But of course, the MSM won't report about it since it doesn't fit their narrative.

[BartAllen]

lol, there's so many documented unhinged attacks and threats (https://www.attacksontrumpsupporters.com/) from the left, it's the best advertisement the GOP has against the radicalized left:

hlMIyae9-ZU

But of course, the MSM won't report about it since it doesn't fit their narrative.

It's worse! Remember when that group of people scalped that white guy and were yelling "Get the cracker and **** Trump". They've been throwing a 2 year tantrum.

What about all those false Hijab pulls? One of whom was arrested for filing a false police report.

The worst part is I'm not even a fan of Trump. I wanted Cruz to win, but the way the left has gone crazy these past two years has shown me that I need to vote in the midterms (conservative down the ticket) and I need to vote for Trump in 2020 and Pence after that.

Candy Kappa and PapaGreg as well as SDP are the reasons a Mexican votes conservative. Remember that. You're the reason Trump won.

[Andrew NDB]

The worst part is I'm not even a fan of Trump. I wanted Cruz to win, but the way the left has gone crazy these past two years has shown me that I need to vote in the midterms (conservative down the ticket) and I need to vote for Trump in 2020 and Pence after that.

That's where I'm at. This is the first mid-term I've ever voted in and I did so immediately and accordingly.

[BartAllen]

Progressives don't care about the truth or what is actually happening they care about their misguided political correctness and virtue signaling. They're never actually outraged either.

Oh, and since we now need proof for our posts. Here is mine about one of the MANY false hijab pulls.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/14/nyregion/manhattan-yasmin-seweid-false-hate-crime.html

Oh, and just to add: Puto has a variety of meanings based on the country (this is why it's dangerous for people that aren't Mexican or don't understand how contextual Spanish is shouldn't comment about the language). Puto in Mexico does NOT mean gay person. Here are other ACTUAL Mexicans discussing this. I've attached screengrabs showing that it does not mean a gay person.

So yeah... snowflakes misunderstanding the word. In the context I was using it I was referring to an ignorant person who used an ACTUAL RACIAL SLUR against me.

[Candy Kappa]

Candy Kappa and PapaGreg as well as SDP are the reasons a Mexican votes conservative. Remember that. You're the reason Trump won.

You are hilarious.

[BartAllen]

You are hilarious.
That's all you got? Come on. At least try to refute any of my claims. You know you can't so you resort to this. I am funny by the way. Thank you.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Oh, and just to add: Puto has a variety of meanings based on the country (this is why it's dangerous for people that aren't Mexican or don't understand how contextual Spanish is shouldn't comment about the language). Puto in Mexico does NOT mean gay person. Here are other ACTUAL Mexicans discussing this. I've attached screengrabs showing that it does not mean a gay person.

I'll take your word for it. As previously stated, my Spanish education wasn't necessarily the most accurate. :tlol:

[BartAllen]

I'll take your word for it. As previously stated, my Spanish education wasn't necessarily the most accurate. :tlol:

Chicano in the way it was used here was used in a racist sense, but you don't see me threatening to cry to a mod.

The guy might not have intended for it to be racist although it's damn hard to tell when you consider the context of which he used it. Saying that I don't understand my people and that I'm an outsider (which is usually the way it is used when it's being used in the racist sense).



Speaking to Puto again. Since I now know it CAN mean a derogatory term for Homosexual people, I won't use it anymore as I don't want to be misunderstood.

[Candy Kappa]

That's all you got? Come on. At least try to refute any of my claims. You know you can't so you resort to this. I am funny by the way. Thank you.

I don't really care that you'll vote for the likes of Trump and Pence and drive your own country to a worse place, and I got better things to do then refute any claims from a person that believes the maga-bomber is a liberal hoax.

[BartAllen]

I don't really care that you'll vote for the likes of Trump and Pence and drive your own country to a worse place, and I got better things to do then refute any claims from a person that believes the maga-bomber is a liberal hoax.

No no. I don't believe that anymore. That was me guessing before the investigation. I know that the guy who sent the bombs was a wacko Republican. Where you and I part is that I don't believe that the actions of one person speak to the actions of an entire group of people. That's a bigoted way of thinking. I don't think like that.

Just as the actions of the guy in Alexandria doesn't speak to all Democrats or Bernie supporters.

This guy sent bomb threats YEARS before Trump was President. To say he's somehow an example of 'TRUMP'S AMERICA' is idiotic.

And the economy is booming right now -- Record unemployment rate... You have a weird definition of going to a 'worse place'.

Now if you mean we're finally going away from the political correctness narrative and judging people based on their immutable characters and collectivizing people then hell yea I am glad we're going away from that.

[Sumac]

Honestly, I'm kind of dumbfounded that as much as this country -- lets be honest -- likes to butt in and get involved in things elsewhere in the world, thinking we're trying to make the world a better place or get into battles that shouldn't involve us...why aren't we helping fellow Americans (albeit Central and/or Southern) to the south of us if they need a hand?
Because, in order to preserve strength, one should show their strength.
Whether its good or not depends on your opinion.

[Leo656]

Because, in order to preserve strength, one should show their strength.
Whether its good or not depends on your opinion.

That sounds suspiciously wise. Almost like something the Greatest and Most Legendary Hero of all time would say...
https://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/4/49541/1626789-740.jpg

"We need no reason to fight. We fight because we are needed. We will be the deterrent for those with no other recourse. We are Soldiers Without Borders, our purpose defined by the era we live in. We will sometimes have to sell ourselves and services. If the times demand it, we'll be revolutionaries, criminals, terrorists. And yes, we may all be headed straight to Hell. But what better place for us than this? It's our only home. Our Heaven and our Hell. This... is Outer Heaven."

History has proven that when in doubt, defer to Big Boss. Things don't really tend to work out very well for you, otherwise.

[Sumac]

Things didn't end up well for Big Boss either.

[Leo656]

That's largely a matter of perspective. He DID ultimately see the dissolution of The Patriots, but he never did realize Outer Heaven. In the end, he also had to realize that a life spent in pursuit of battle was a waste. And he sure did spend a lot of time in and out of comas. Like, a LOT of time. :lol:

But he did go out seeing the world arguably a better place than he found it. It was just kind of a messy road getting there. :trazz:

[Andrew NDB]

Front page news on CNN: "Trump shocks with racist new ad!"

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/31/politics/donald-trump-immigration-paul-ryan-midterms/index.html

Except... it's not.

Jesus f***ing christ, they're really this desperate, aren't they?

[Vegita-San]

not to add to this mess..

what happens if the blue wave doesn't come?

the blues have tried everything from fake info, to discrediting, to labeling, to mass hysteria. and are loosing at every turn.

what's left to try?

[BartAllen]

not to add to this mess..

what happens if the blue wave doesn't come?

the blues have tried everything from fake info, to discrediting, to labeling, to mass hysteria. and are loosing at every turn.

what's left to try?

The blue wave wasn't ever going to happen.

What I suspect is going to happen is that the House is going to go Democrat by a slight margin and the Senate is going to stay right -- Maybe pick up a few seats.

[joe-eyeball]

The blue wave wasn't ever going to happen.

What I suspect is going to happen is that the House is going to go Democrat by a slight margin and the Senate is going to stay right -- Maybe pick up a few seats.

Agreed! The blue wave crap is just lame democratic marketing so they can convince themselves and their base that they all tore down the republicans. The truth is the only reason they may pick up the house is mostly due to the large number of republicans retiring from seats. Usually incumbents in the house hold more then they fall. The blue wave will really end up barely being a puddle. Also, I’m not convinced in any way that the Democrats are going to win anything. I think another shock is coming!

[Vegita-San]

notice election week is upon us. I don't hear a thing about this odd 'migrant caravan' and 'trump bomber' anymore.

not one follow up on the suspicious packages. they 'found their man' and the story vanished fast. this is why you question everything.

[Leo656]

People just follow memes. They don't really know what's going on.

Last night at the show, I got on the mic and said "The last time I saw an organization run this badly, the Democrats had both the House and the Senate."

No pop. :ohwell: I mean, I guesssss it could be that wrestling fans are just, y'know... kinda thick. :lol: But that line would'a killed if Dennis Miller said it on "Weekend Update".

[ZariusTwo]

People just follow memes. They don't really know what's going on.

Last night at the show, I got on the mic and said "The last time I saw an organization run this badly, the Democrats had both the House and the Senate.

Would it have killed just one guy or gal in the audience to have said "Now you've given me hope"?

[Leo656]

Would it have killed just one guy or gal in the audience to have said "Now you've given me hope"?

:lol:

They also didn't make much noise when I asked the Commissioner - who's Jewish - if he ever makes it down to Pittsburgh. But after the skit he said maybe they were all just in shock. :lol: What a good sport!

He broke kayfabe when I asked him "How's your wife and MY kid?" though, and yelled "I'm DIVORCED you F*CKER!" in front of a crowd full of children. :lol: I holler back "And WHY do you think THAT is?!" ((Pelvic thrust, Exit Stage Left))

...Y'know these guys originally didn't know if I could play a heel? :lol: Actual conversation when they brought me in: "Dude, can you be, like, just a complete and total scumbag?" "...I'll make it work." :tgrin::tgrin::tgrin: