Will TMNT return to its roots like Batman did?

[The-Shredder]

Tim Burton's Batman movie is credited for revitalizing the franchise and bringing it back to its early comic book roots. Do you think that something similar will happen to TMNT anytime soon?

[Powder]

In a standalone film or something, it's possible, but on a whole, no. The bulk of its profits are as a Nickelodeon cartoon, so that will likely remain the face of the property.

& I'm ok with that so long as there are at least semi-adult works that are free to exist alongside it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

In a standalone film or something, it's possible, but on a whole, no. The bulk of its profits are as a Nickelodeon cartoon, so that will likely remain the face of the property.

Yep. It's never gonna happen. Lost cause.

[Leo656]

Zero chance. I don't even have any hope whatsoever that anything as good as the 1990 film will ever exist again. Maaaaybe an animated straight-to-DVD/Netflix movie, but that still seems like a huge outside chance. To Nick, it makes zero business sense to spend any money or resources on a version of the brand that's not aimed at their target audience of anyone under 8. That's why even though some fans really hold out hope for such an animated project to one day exist, I don't see any chance. Why would Nick suddenly want to ask for money from 30-40 year olds when they're doing just fine ignoring them? Whatever they'd make back wouldn't justify the expense.

As anything other than a slightly more hip catch-all kiddie franchise like Thomas The Tank Engine, the brand is dead. That may be proven wrong one day, but not in this lifetime.

[Wildcat]

I think there will be a more adult-oriented movie eventually.

Making a more mature version of so-and-so is a “thing” in the entertainment industry. Especially for superheroes/comics.

Within reason obviously. It’s not gonna be some super gruesome or overly violent take. There’s no reason for that. I don’t think I’d want that either.

Under Nick there has barely been 2 cartoon series and 1 movie “series”. Not gonna count them as 2 since they were 1 version. Give it some time.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I don't even have any hope whatsoever that anything as good as the 1990 film will ever exist again.

4 Kids is probably the closest thing. The New Line Cinema films are a mix of Mirage and Fred Wolf.

[AquaParade]

Zero chance. I don't even have any hope whatsoever that anything as good as the 1990 film will ever exist again. Maaaaybe an animated straight-to-DVD/Netflix movie, but that still seems like a huge outside chance. To Nick, it makes zero business sense to spend any money or resources on a version of the brand that's not aimed at their target audience of anyone under 8. That's why even though some fans really hold out hope for such an animated project to one day exist, I don't see any chance. Why would Nick suddenly want to ask for money from 30-40 year olds when they're doing just fine ignoring them? Whatever they'd make back wouldn't justify the expense.

As anything other than a slightly more hip catch-all kiddie franchise like Thomas The Tank Engine, the brand is dead. That may be proven wrong one day, but not in this lifetime.

Some truth there, but I wouldn't say it's a completely lost cause. They are happy to take money from adults in the comic book market. Those old Mirage, and even IDW books aren't really aimed at kids or anyone under 8 years old. They know those are adults purchasing those books.

So yeah, comic books are small potatoes compared to the other forms of media they are concentrating on with TMNT, but the door is still slightly cracked open, in my eyes. If I didn't believe there is a chance that we may get some quality TMNT content in the future, not strictly aimed at children, then I probably wouldn't be here anymore.

[Andrew NDB]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/73329884.jpg

[Wesley]

I don’t think so.

[pferreira]

Tim Burton's Batman movie is credited for revitalizing the franchise and bringing it back to its early comic book roots. Do you think that something similar will happen to TMNT anytime soon?Not sure. I could be wrong but didn't Burton's Batman introduce stuff stylistically that wasn't in the original comics like the Art Deco? I guess it depends how far back in roots you mean.

As for TMNT the only way I see them going completely back to the franchise roots is if they adapt the Mirage Volume 1 series for TV. That is doable.

[The-Shredder]

Not sure. I could be wrong but didn't Burton's Batman introduce stuff stylistically that wasn't in the original comics like the Art Deco? I guess it depends how far back in roots you mean.

As for TMNT the only way I see them going completely back to the franchise roots is if they adapt the Mirage Volume 1 series for TV. That is doable.

I know there were a variety of 1930s and 40s influences outside of the comics, but as far back as the late 70s there was an initiative to make a Batman movie the way the creators originally envisioned the character, the opposite of the 60s version. That's what I meant by bringing it back to its roots.

[victory_angel]

It's not like Viacom is going to own TMNT as a property forever. It's going to hold on to it and milk it as long as it can, but eventually, they will end their license of it and sell it to someone else. Just because Viacom own's Nick doesn't mean that it markets to kids only. Paramount Pictures and is a fairly general audience company and they can produce a Netflix special.

For example a couple of years ago Paramount Animation did an animated film version of the Little Prince. This film was due to be released in theaters but was dropped due to budget cuts (and would have been ignored in theaters due to competing films *Cough* Star Wars *Cough*.) But it was picked and aired on NetFlix which actually turned out to be a better way for that film to gain an audience.

Viacom also owns companies like MTV and Comedy Central under their Global Entertainment Group. So it is still possible for them to sell TMNT as a franchise to someone like Netflix original, or Stars, or HBO.

[Leo656]

I think they paid too much - and already have made too much - to ever get rid of it.

They've reimbursed more than their entire investment, by releasing products which most people acknowledge are spotty at best. They're hip to the game that their audience will swallow anything. Nick can keep this up forever.

I *guess* it's possible that the TMNT audience at large will, y'know, actually start ignoring the franchise when things coming out of it are simply not good, instead of blindly spending their money "Supporting the brand", which is asinine consumerist drivel, but I don't think so.

People would have to stop buying TMNT products for Nick to ever get rid of it, and the BayTurtles movies, if nothing else, proved that this fanbase really will buy anything with a green sticker on it. Those movies are so bad that a "Special Feature" on the Blu-ray is, the box comes to life and farts in your mouth while you're sleeping, and TMNT fans still spent money on them.

That tells me that Nick's "reign" over TMNT is safe. And trying to shuffle any of it into one of the more "grown-up" Viacom networks is certainly a possibility, but highly unlikely, as it would "split and confuse the audience". Remember, corporations assume everyone is an idiot; having two completely different TMNT shows or movies or whatever would be more than their audience could wrap their heads around. And if one of the youngsters somehow saw the more grown-up TMNT show, you might get angry Soccer Mom letters, and we know how well that goes over.

They're just gonna bang the same drum for the next few decades. I mean, I get it; people apparently like the beat. I don't, but it seems to work for some people. The question being, "Could TMNT ever go back to a more serious property?", though, I say: Nick has far too much invested in doing the complete OPPOSITE of that, they'd never take the risk, and it's far too valuable a property to ever let it go. Even if the popularity hits a lull, they're fine; that's probably just what they're saving a DVD release of the 2003 show for, the next dry spell. Kill some time and maintain goodwill until they can make a new show that gets people's attention. Rinse and Repeat.

I mean, sure, anything's possible. I just can't see it happening in my lifetime. And I also don't know who'd actually do a good job with TMNT in the first place. Probably no one, if we're being honest. I can't see any of the companies who could afford to buy the brand, ever actually doing anything too different from what we're already getting. Not in the "It's For Kids" way; like if they became a Marvel or DC property I definitely think they'd be presented in a PG-13 kinda way, but it'd still be a watered-down mish-mash of all the previous TMNT stuff that felt like it was written in a boardroom. And it may be exciting but it would all still feel very sterile and corporate, in a very noticeable way. Just like now.

I think it's kind of in a hole too deep to get out of, at this point.

[Xav]

People would have to stop buying TMNT products for Nick to ever get rid of it, and the BayTurtles movies, if nothing else, proved that this fanbase really will buy anything with a green sticker on it.Not necessarily. Didn't the second movie actually lose money?

[pferreira]

I know there were a variety of 1930s and 40s influences outside of the comics, but as far back as the late 70s there was an initiative to make a Batman movie the way the creators originally envisioned the character, the opposite of the 60s version. That's what I meant by bringing it back to its roots.Okay I understand now although I'm not sure the 1989 movie was totally like old Batman at least in style. As I said I could be wrong. :)

[neatoman]

Not necessarily. Didn't the second movie actually lose money?

"Lose" is a bit difficult to determine, but it probably did. What we do know is that a movie needs to make at least twice it's production budget to be considered successful, which it failed to do.

[AquaParade]

Good post by Leo, but I was also going to echo the fact that the second Platinum Dunes film made less than the first, which is a clear sign that fans aren't taking another bite of the ****** cake. Platinum Dunes saw the results and expressed a bit of confusion/sadness when interviewed.

And maybe someone can fill me in on "Rise of the TMNT", because I've never been more out of the loop on a TMNT product than this one, but I feel like it's actually gotten more backlash than usual, as far as TMNT cartoons go. I could be wrong, but maybe someone else can chime in.

And it's also worth mentioning that Nick had to approve of IDW republishing the Image TMNT series. It shows a willingness to throw the older fans a bone, if nothing else. It goes against the thought that they want to purify TMNT into a restricted territory of kiddie-material. I think it shows a willingness to dip their feet in and check the temperature on content for older fans.

There is also the changing of times. Today's generation has held onto our favorite childhood heroes and characters like never before. Marvel and DC are making billions off of adults, with their cartoonish characters. Everyone is watching and many are sure to follow the trend.

[miru]

Good post by Leo, but I was also going to echo the fact that the second Platinum Dunes film made less than the first, which is a clear sign that fans aren't taking another bite of the ****** cake. Platinum Dunes saw the results and expressed a bit of confusion/sadness when interviewed.

And maybe someone can fill me in on "Rise of the TMNT", because I've never been more out of the loop on a TMNT product than this one, but I feel like it's actually gotten more backlash than usual, as far as TMNT cartoons go. I could be wrong, but maybe someone else can chime in.

And it's also worth mentioning that Nick had to approve of IDW republishing the Image TMNT series. It shows a willingness to throw the older fans a bone, if nothing else. It goes against the thought that they want to purify TMNT into a restricted territory of kiddie-material. I think it shows a willingness to dip their feet in and check the temperature on content for older fans.

There is also the changing of times. Today's generation has held onto our favorite childhood heroes and characters like never before. Marvel and DC are making billions off of adults, with their cartoonish characters. Everyone is watching and many are sure to follow the trend.

This actually gives a degree of hope, especially with GOTG, BH6, and even characters who were considered jokes like Ant-Man.

[Metalwolf]

This actually gives a degree of hope, especially with GOTG, BH6, and even characters who were considered jokes like Ant-Man.I hope so too. It would be awesome again to see another live action movie, something more serious this time. I know complained before ( sometimes a bit to much, I'll be honest) about TMNT being reduced to kiddy fare, but I think it was because I wanted regular people to see the dark and gritty stuff that it was originally known for, the stuff that makes an audience go, 'Hey yeah, I wanna see that!'

[pferreira]

And maybe someone can fill me in on "Rise of the TMNT", because I've never been more out of the loop on a TMNT product than this one, but I feel like it's actually gotten more backlash than usual, as far as TMNT cartoons go. I could be wrong, but maybe someone else can chime in.I've only seen clips and it didn't look very promising. It's essentially Nick without any restraint. It reminds me of the types of shows Nick and Cartoon Network used to put out in the 90s like Johnny Bravo. I guess they wanted to distance themselves from the previous CG iteration but in doing so came up with something that is far removed from any version of TMNT. The designs I know aren't the only thing people dislike about the new series.

[wpugh2424]

I think there will be a more adult-oriented movie eventually.

Making a more mature version of so-and-so is a “thing” in the entertainment industry. Especially for superheroes/comics.

Within reason obviously. It’s not gonna be some super gruesome or overly violent take. There’s no reason for that. I don’t think I’d want that either.

Under Nick there has barely been 2 cartoon series and 1 movie “series”. Not gonna count them as 2 since they were 1 version. Give it some time.

I hope you are right

[80gmrp]

I hope you are right

Indeed.

What I do know is that I have a friend who, like me, is into classic content. That said, he actually firmly believes TMNT went downhill as soon as the 80s cartoon, at least from a production standpoint. However, he did tell me he enjoyed the concepts behind the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles And Other Strangeness RPG from 1985, telling me “The whole idea of mutant animal people living on the underside of human civilization is fascinating.” While I never gave that much thought until he brought it up, I suppose revisiting those non-turtle-specific ideas could also be an option.

[Leo656]

I've always found it interesting that TMNT fans come in generally two flavors, insofar as how they want their "world" to be represented, and they're polar opposite extremes. There's the "The Turtles and Splinter should essentially be the only mutants, give or take one or two, because any more than that makes the Turtles less special" camp, and on the flip side, the "Cram as many mutants and weirdos in there as possible, because that kinda crazy sh*t is exactly what I signed up for!" camp.

I don't really have much preference, and there's logic in either, but with such a deep divide on numerous things within the lore, not just that one thing, I'm always a little surprised the whole thing has even lasted so long. I also don't envy the creators who have to generate new content, much as I give them sh*t all the time. One side of the franchise is completely the opposite of the other, they totally can't be reconciled, and most people are pretty sure their preference is what's best, so while you're never gonna please everyone anyway, it's harder than usual with TMNT because it's inherently so bipolar.

It's kinda why I hate whenever a new "dramatically different" version comes out. The whole thing's already fractured enough, ain't it?

[d_osborn]

Here's a good spot for my quarterly pie-in-the-sky wish post for John Fusco's Nolan/Batman-inspired TMNT script leak.

https://youtu.be/IrCEhRNgGHY

[pferreira]

I don't really have much preference, and there's logic in either, but with such a deep divide on numerous things within the lore, not just that one thing, I'm always a little surprised the whole thing has even lasted so long. I also don't envy the creators who have to generate new content, much as I give them sh*t all the time. So if you were put in charge of the franchise how would you proceed with TMNT? What would be the most suitable way forward do you think?

[Leo656]

It should be no surprise to anyone who knows me that I'd start with the 1990 film as my foundation and go from there. Visually, musically, stylistically, I think that's as close to "perfect" as it gets. It's Mirage-based, but has enough little bits of the FW cartoon, like pizza, bad jokes and some of the personality traits, to make fans of that area still feel familiar.

From there, I'd still try and incorporate stuff from various other familiar versions on a limited and case-by-case basis, because you still need stuff like Leatherhead and the Utroms and Karai, but they'd need to be presented in a way that feels consistent with the existing tone. Not just, "Hey, 'member THIS?" as it's sometimes been done.

I'm not entirely comfortable whenever someone asks me things like this, because I've never once tried to run a company or sell a strip, so there's no guarantee my "Grand Plan" would even make a dime. But as to my specific preference of what I'd like to see, and what "TMNT as done by me" would resemble, it would more or less be presented and set in the style of the original film. Some people argue that there was too much human focus in the film, but without touching that either way I still think the basic presentation of that film is exactly what TMNT should be, what it should look, feel, and sound like.

I mean... me repeatedly saying "The 1990 film is all I even look at anymore" for years didn't tip you off? ;):lol:

[pferreira]

It should be no surprise to anyone who knows me that I'd start with the 1990 film as my foundation and go from there. Visually, musically, stylistically, I think that's as close to "perfect" as it gets. It's Mirage-based, but has enough little bits of the FW cartoon, like pizza, bad jokes and some of the personality traits, to make fans of that area still feel familiar.So you'd want the 1990 movie replicated and developed through comics, cartoons and movies? One of the problems you face with this idea is that the movie is of a different era. The PD movies are very much stuck in a world of mobile phones, digital tech, etc. Obviously they're going to do the same with a future iteration in the present to make it relevant but then by doing that and adding those elements it will stop being the 1990 movie style. I notice a lot of TV and films today (especially the Marvel movies) focus way more on advanced tech than they need to.

Is it also possible to present the atmosphere of the late 20th Century in a post 9/11 world and it's politics? Stylistically we're also looking at the grainy grittiness of the 1990 movie replaced with endless teal instead which no one in their right mind would want. Again we can go back to what you say about using the 1990 movie as a starting off point but with all the changes they'd have to make for today's society would it even resemble what you liked back in that movie? I do like your idea but only if it retained that feel.

I mean... me repeatedly saying "The 1990 film is all I even look at anymore" for years didn't tip you off? ;):lol:To be honest it passed me by. :lol:

[Leo656]

I think you're over-thinking it just a smidge. :trazz:

[pferreira]

I think you're over-thinking it just a smidge. :trazz:Well I'm just thinking worst case scenarios and whether it would end up working. :)

[Galactus]

I don't see Batman '89 as so much a return to Batman's roots even though there are definite golden age influences particularly in the earlier drafts on the movie's scripts but mainly it was a distillation of the Batman comics of the time. Stylistically Dark Knight Returns, The Killing Joke were the big influences on movie and even though the whole gothic version of Gotham was introduced in the movie you could argue it came from the Noir depiction of the city in things like Year One or the more stylized art that was popping up a lot in Batman comics at the time.

If TMNT followed a similar path then we'd get IDW influences (not a bad start) with Rise of the TMNT (KILL IT). Thankfully I don't see that happening, the TV show will probably be gone and rebooted again before proper development on another movie starts.

If there's any recent TMNT media I'd prefer to see be an influence it's the first Batman crossover. The turtles look on point, stylistically it could be seen as going back to TMNT's roots as Batman's world is darker. It has some heart and the pizza and surfer slang is present but largely kept it check. Since the Platinum Dunes folk are aware of it I'd hope they at least skim it.

As for returning to the franchise's roots; I little little faith in that happening but a honestly I have a smidgen more now than if it was still under Mirage.

It should be said that while Laird seemed to outgrow the stylistically dark, street level stories in his own work he clearly knew it was a big part of the appeal of the franchise and did fight to keep it present outside the comics during his stewardship of the franchise in the 2000s and saw that he was able to curb the worst excesses of what other companies wanted to do with the characters and had some leeway of putting them in the general direction of where he wanted to go he was still one man as the head of a small company and was often overruled or at times too tired and let certain things slide.

Being owned Nickelodeon might make it seem like like they'd want to go fully into the Fred Wolf route and certainly that's the impression we were given at the time of sale but honestly that hasn't been their natural impulse.

I thought for sure we'd see the return of the colour coded pads and initialised belt buckles and the party wagon driving around sunlit streets so I know I wasn't the only one that was pleasantly surprised when the first concept art and thought "oh this isn't quite as kiddie as thought it would be". The show itself was aimed at young kids but it certainly took more Mirage elements than anything else. After a while legit 80s show elements were introduced but it took some time.

Likewise making the 80s show in live action wasn't the natural impulse when it came to movies. We know earlier versions of the first Platinum Dunes movie were supposed to be "darker" and "mature" although I dread to think what Bay and Liebesman associate with those words. The movie itself was crap but not because they chose a edgier aesthetic. The sad part is that was the takeaway of why the movie under performed so for the sequel went full Fred Wolf and full "embrace the goofy" but yeah that outright flopped.

If there is any silver lining is that Platinum Dunes has openly acknowledged that it flopped and is not making the same excuses some of the apologists for any TMNT product incessantly shouted like it had a poor release date or people were put off by the first PD movie (even though they all argued that was great too). Nemec and Applebaum have acknowledged that simply adding more characters is not the way to go.

Beyond that they need to look at why the 2014 movie was a decent hit despite it looking "too dark" and the TMNT movie every kid (apparently) dreamed of failed spectacularly. Maybe the original approach with the first wasn't so far off the mark.

If nothing else a back to basic approach may have to be on the table out of sheer necessity. It's not like after Out Of The Shadows lost so much money that Paramount will be investing alien invasion kinda money into TMNT. Street level, Shredder, not hugely cgi heavy is at very least got to be an option for practicalities sake.

[pferreira]

The sad part is that was the takeaway of why the movie under performed so for the sequel went full Fred Wolf and full "embrace the goofy" but yeah that outright flopped.It was the wrong movie and wrong style to merge the FW style with. To do a live action version of the FW cartoon they would need to start from scratch. The failure of the sequel was having the 2014 Bay style with the FW influences tacked on. It just doesn't work as they are both opposites. Either adapt the style fully or don't.

[Galactus]

It was the wrong movie and wrong style to merge the FW style with. To do a live action version of the FW cartoon they would need to start from scratch. The failure of the sequel was having the 2014 Bay style with the FW influences tacked on. It just doesn't work as they are both opposites. Either adapt the style fully or don't.

While I think the Bay turtle designs look weirder when the "edgy" elements are sanded off in every other respect they did a reasonable approximation of what a Fred Wolf movie in 2015 would look like.

Bebop and Rocksteady, Krang all looked very on point and for the five seconds it was fully assembled the Technodrome looked as it should, eye ball and all. While I roll my eyes at the penis jokes all the Fred Wolf exclusive characters had the personalities they should.

If anything I think they were too literal with interpreting the Fred Wolf show. The search for the three mcguffins was clearly based on three Eyes of Sarnath even down to naming Baxter's computer O.M.N.S.S.

It basically had the same ending to the first season. Donatello reprograms the Techndrome and it is sucked into Dimension-X slowly enough for the turtles to escape.

I wouldn't be surprised if the turtles becoming humans subplot was culled from "The Gangs All Here".

The sad part is I believe that Platinum Dunes thought fans would love all this stuff but frankly while not disliked or anything I don't think the Eyes of Sarnath sticks out as a highlight of the series and while I'd argue the first season of the Fred Wolf show is among the best Saturday Morning Animation of the 80s I know I'd not alone in thinking the anti-climactic ending is not something I wanted to see repeated and well "The Gangs All Here" is generally one of the least liked episodes of the 80s series.

Ironically I think what a good Fred Wolf based in modern times would be even closer to the Bay style. Technodrome blasting buildings, air force trying to getting past their shields, Rock Soldiers fighting ground forces while the turtles infiltrate the Technodrome somehow. It's certainly not the movie I want but it would have been more engaging than what we got. Budget clearly played a part in that.

Regardless the 80s show was represented well enough and yet people turned their noses up at it. I don't think any version of the show is the silver bullet to commercial success that some fans and I'm sure many in the industry have long believed.

For the record the same is probably true for Mirage or 2K3 or IDW inspired movies. There is no one version of TMNT that is popular enough on it's own that simply saying they are making one is enough for commercial success. That being said I do think the above versions are creatively better materials to draw on to make a good movie that if played right could be a hit.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Rock Soldiers fighting ground forces while the turtles infiltrate the Technodrome somehow.

Or let the United States Airforce fire at Krang's weather maker (only to realize some kind of forefield prevents it), while the turtles infiltrate the Technodrome beneath Manhattan.