TMNT Reboot: Baxter Stockman vs The Rat King

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

You know, since we are heading into another reboot they are developing, I have been wondering about what kind of movie would be the best for our next TMNT restart. And it seems to me the best idea is one that has been mentioned on these boards before (including by me), and peter Laird even mentioned it in his TMNT entity blog once. I'm talking about Baxter Stockman and his mousers vs. the rat king.

It seems like such an obvious choice: the two villains are so diametrically opposed to each other; a villain who has rat hunting robots, against a foe who believes rats are superior to humans. If Rat King takes control of Splinter to fight for him, the turtles could get caught in the middle.The turtles have enemies they can bloodlessly smash with their weapons in the form of the mousers, and April can be introduced of Baxter's assistant. It would be a story we have NEVER seen before, and you could set up the foot clan for a sequel.

So, what would everyone else think of this as a reboot?

[80gmrp]

Interesting concepts, and the logic makes sense, but I doubt they’d establish that story so soon in the reboot process for the same reason my certain favorite character hasn’t been in a movie yet: people seem to expect the Shredder arc to be the beginning (and usually the end) of a given era’s story. Not to say I want that particular form of recycling to always happen: on the contrary, part of me wishes the IMDB cast list mentioned elsewhere wasn’t a hoax for its mentioning of several not-so-common allies and enemies.

[IndigoErth]

Got my hopes up for a sec that there might have been a tidbit of news. lol Anyhow, yeah, it's an interesting idea that could work pretty well. My only concern is the Turtles falling to the sideline as supporting cast -- albeit very involved supporting case -- if the concept has a very easy chance of making the villains the main stars of it, even if not intentional.

Putting someone else too far into the center of it was one of the issues with 2014, as it wanted to focus on Megan Fox, er, April.




Although what I'm expecting is it probably to start at the origin again... Which doesn't sound all that exciting at this point and wish they'd just skip it instead of trying to eff it up just to be different and exciting.

You know how the comics like to have that footnote, see issue # whatever that relates to something mentioned that previously happened? Why not be creative and maybe make the opening a little comics book-ish in style and find a way to work that in, suggesting a reference to comic or a previous film?



edit: Ah man, of any established character they could finally include next, preferably live action and presumably via CGI, Leatherhead would be awesome to see. Esp if they took their cues from the likes of 2003.

[MikeandRaph87]

I am all in on this most overlooked concept in TMNT lore. The closest was elderly Rat King coming after Donatello for reworking the mouser to legally and effectively take care of NYC's rat problem in just one plotline from Future Shark Trilogy.

[80gmrp]

You do raise an interesting idea, IndigoErth, about footnote storytelling. It certainly could help get on with the story for the movie line if well executed, not to mention it’s different in its own way, especially if the plot isn’t linear like a typical sequel process.

And fully agreed about LH having an appearance: it would be nice if I could see him in a movie for once, especially if he ends up becoming an ally like in the majority of his appearances.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Just add some more dangerous robots or vehicles for Baxter Stockman (that an destroy entire skyscrapers) and let the Rat King mutate some of his rats. Imagine the turtles fighting entire groups of mutant rats, led by a brainwashed Splinter!

[IndigoErth]

That would be pretty cool.

(that an destroy entire skyscrapers)
Yes, some actual damage to the city, that makes the Turtle's efforts more notable to the citizens, would be nice. (Unlike Krang who never even posed a real threat in 2016. Such a waste of a character.)

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

That would be pretty cool.


Yes, some actual damage to the city, that makes the Turtle's efforts more notable to the citizens, would be nice. (Unlike Krang who never even posed a real threat in 2016. Such a waste of a character.)

How about a Baxter Stockman and Krang teamup?

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, that would be awesome too. If they were to use the same character models from the last film, Krang really does need to return and be an actual threat this time.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

But please, no more fly. It was just a way of writing Baxter Stockman out of the Fred Wolf series as a main character (to return in a few later episodes to seek revenge on Krang and Shredder). In the Nickelodeon series, it just felt forced.

[IndigoErth]

What, we can't have a "realistic" CGI fly mutant Baxter?? Might be freaky enough to garner TMNT a slightly higher rating. :tlol:

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/c6/29/e6/c629e6bd4c80695c40419ecaa072e9aa--guy-fieri-the-fly.jpg

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I'm more partial to the Goldblum version, or more specifically, to the sequel with Brundel's son. That thing was SCARY!

[Galactus]

Baxter Stockman vs The Rat King is definitely one of the better original ideas for a non Shredder movie.

Of course therein lies a bit of a problem; it's a non Shredder movie.

TMNT does have something of a villain problem that can be broken down into two facets.

Firstly that it doesn't seem a movie where Shredder isn't the villain stands much of a chance of commercial success. Heck Out of the Shadows did have him in a supporting role with Bebop, Rocksteady and Krang with the Technodrome no less, what everyone banked the farm on being huge draws due to them being from the 80s show and yet it tanked.

I appreciate people want to skip ahead to other villains rather than rehash the same ones but I just don't see anyone but Shredder as the central antagonist getting asses on seats. Sure, once you've done a really good Shredder movie you've won the audience's trust and can branch but unless you have a really good hook for a TMNT movie you need the villain everyone cares about first.

Secondly most of the turtles antagonists are conceptually poor "final boss" villains. Leatherhead would make a good ally/supporting character, if you want you can have a misunderstanding with the turtles which causes them to fight but as proper villain what would Leatherhead's big plan be that the turtles have to stop? What would a big third act blow out be with Rat King be? The turtles fighting rats?

Some villains you could probably beef up. For my money Baxter Stockman would be a good candidate for this. You could probably get some interesting aerial battles if they went for the fly version but mostly human/cyborg with mousers and a giant robot would be cool. Still I can't help but think that the character would be best served as a lackey providing tech to Shredder and the Foot which is basically what he in most other versions.

There are some villains that you could easily build a movie around. Bishop and Hun are two big ones that could definitely carry a movie but with them you got the first problem that no one outside of established fans know them.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Bishop and Hun are two big ones that could definitely carry a movie but with them you got the first problem that no one outside of established fans know them.

Have Krang invade Earth, and let John Bishop lead the Earth Protection Force.

[80gmrp]

Galactus, you’ve more or less stated my own viewpoint on the matter. Not to mention that, when it comes to alternative villains, Leatherhead was never the mastermind behind anything huge, not even in the times he wasn’t an ally of the turtles. Closest we get to that is the mishap in IDW #56 to #58, as well as #85, and even there, I find it hard to blame the victim (Leatherhead) over the perpetrator (Krang) for everything that happened in those issues.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

I honestly feel you guys are naive if you think we're not just going to get more of the same. I hope I am wrong.

[80gmrp]

I honestly feel you guys are naive if you think we're not just going to get more of the same. I hope I am wrong.

Depends on what you mean by more of the same, in my case. ROT is quite different in the wrong ways, imo. As for the movies, admittedly I haven't watched the 2014 or 2016 movies, yet, so I have no real basis of opinion about those movies being good or bad, though you are right that it probably wouldn't deviate too much from those, knowing that, from what I heard, Michael Bay is still involved.

[Xav]

Bishop and Hun are two big ones that could definitely carry a movie but with them you got the first problem that no one outside of established fans k0now them.So? I mean look at the Batman films you think the average person knows who the heck Ra's Al Ghul or Bane are?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

There are some villains that you could easily build a movie around. Bishop and Hun are two big ones that could definitely carry a movie but with them you got the first problem that no one outside of established fans know them.

I think Hun and the Purple Dragons alone can only carry a Casey Jones solo film. But John Bishop, definitely, can carry a TMNT film. So much better than Rahzar and Tokka.

[Galactus]

So? I mean look at the Batman films you think the average person knows who the heck Ra's Al Ghul or Bane are?

Yeah that's Batman. People are going to turn out for Batman and even then the movie which got people the most hyped to watch was the one that had his best known villain as the primary antagonist. TMNT is just not on that level.

I don't think it can be stated enough that Out Of The Shadows had what is considered to be the most popular and well known villains outside of the Shredder and it tanked. Clearly all that internet hype from people who had waited their "entire lives" to see these characters in a TMNT movie did not translate to ticket sales.

TMNT needs to look like a movie where those making it are talking it seriously and a big part of that is the choice of villain. Not just in terms of of being the most popular but also the best you can build a story around. When you've won over the audience then you can go with the deep cut choices.

I think Hun and the Purple Dragons alone can only carry a Casey Jones solo film. But John Bishop, definitely, can carry a TMNT film. So much better than Rahzar and Tokka.

You're probably right about Hun and the Purple Dragons. While I think the character's status could be beefed up to work as a main villain he's probably best served as secondary character like if the had a City At War movie were he's vying to pick up the Foot's position and you could have his rivalry with Casey and have his origin as a subplot with flashbacks to him burning down the Jones' auto shop and the implied murder of his father. Writes itself. Bishop is conceptually the better villain after Shredder to carry a movie. Maybe Triceratons but I think they'd need a more compelling leader than Zanramon has ever been portrayed.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I truly believe other villains can work in the main role, it just has to be done it a properly done script. Rat King vs. Baxter with the turtles caught in the middle (maybe with a leatherhead scene thrown in) could work. A post-credits scene with shredder and the foot, to tease the sequel. I think any villain could work to draw people in, so long as the marketing makes the movie look fun and exciting.

[Galactus]

From a creative standpoint you could definitely make a good non-Shredder TMNT movie but it's no guarantee the public will buy it.

Aren't most action movies marketed as "fun and exciting"? While the various trailers for both Platinum Dunes movies threw up a lot of red flags for us ardent fans but most people were oblivious to all that and all those trailers were very well made and effectively conveyed both the better parts of the movie and how they wanted the audience to view them going in. Didn't really work out as well, did it? Especially with the second.

Even if you could get the general public on board with a non-Shredder focused movie there's one problem before you even get there. How you going to persuade a movie studio to go for it? Is a bottom line Paramount exec going to green light most of these concepts?

Even as concepts many TMNT villains sound either weak or just plain weird. I get the big selling point of a Rat King movie would be to have Rat King control Splinter and force him to fight the turtles - that would be good and connects to the titular characters which is what a lot of fan pitches which have the turtles caught up in the middle of events that have little to do with them overlook...I still think a movie about a nut trying to conquer the world with a bunch of rats is going to be hard sell to a board room.

Then there is also practical concerns. For example I think the Space arc from #3 - 5 of the Mirage book would make a good movie. As far as I'm concerned it's already worked as a movie in Thor: Ragnarok which had essentially the same story but after the last movie failed to make any money do you think Paramount is giving PD the money for that?

[oldmanwinters]

Using Baxter Stockman and the Rat King as live-action movie villains was a Peter Laird's idea for how to do the Secret of the Ooze movie:
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=36749
http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/blast-from-past-483-thoughts-on-second.html

[IndigoErth]

Would Triceratons be a safer bet? A big change from what the less knowledgeable movie goers are used to with TMNT, but it has the benefit of dinosaurs still being a bit of a draw and Jurassic World planning another, so... jump on that bandwagon and tweak people's curiosity with crazy looking space dinos? Kind of a mash up of Jurassic Park meets Transformers with the Turtles being the heroes of it?

Personally I'd prefer some more down to Earth stories, but if they need to do something more out there to get people's interest...

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Rat King versus Baxter Stockman makes sense in theory, but I don't think you could use very interesting versions of either character to do the story.

Think about it; reducing the Rat King to just some homeless guy who commands rats (e.g. the Fred Wolf version) is much less interesting than the crazy/not-crazy spiritual guide of Mirage or the immortal trickster god of IDW. And Baxter Stockman who is just defined by his Mouser robots is only a little better than Baxter the Fly.

It would be an interesting story, but it wouldn't serve to give much depth to either antagonist. They'd just be one-dimensional stereotypes, throwing CGI rats and robots at each other. It'd be fun to watch, but it wouldn't do much to prove that TMNT can be compelling, intellectually engrossing, and involve mature, well-developed characters. It'd just be "Cowabunga!" and "Pizza Power!" without the usual villain roster.

[MikeandRaph87]

I truly believe other villains can work in the main role, it just has to be done it a properly done script. Rat King vs. Baxter with the turtles caught in the middle (maybe with a leatherhead scene thrown in) could work. A post-credits scene with shredder and the foot, to tease the sequel. I think any villain could work to draw people in, so long as the marketing makes the movie look fun and exciting.

The main thing is, I want villains who are not made for movie, but pre-existing. Walker and MaxWinters are made for movie crap. While I believe The Shredder orovides the best option there are other actual villains that can be used as your concept proves.

[MikeandRaph87]

Rat King versus Baxter Stockman makes sense in theory, but I don't think you could use very interesting versions of either character to do the story.

Think about it; reducing the Rat King to just some homeless guy who commands rats (e.g. the Fred Wolf version) is much less interesting than the crazy/not-crazy spiritual guide of Mirage or the immortal trickster god of IDW. And Baxter Stockman who is just defined by his Mouser robots is only a little better than Baxter the Fly.

It would be an interesting story, but it wouldn't serve to give much depth to either antagonist. They'd just be one-dimensional stereotypes, throwing CGI rats and robots at each other. It'd be fun to watch, but it wouldn't do much to prove that TMNT can be compelling, intellectually engrossing, and involve mature, well-developed characters. It'd just be "Cowabunga!" and "Pizza Power!" without the usual villain roster.

Not neccessarily. This could work if its an early appearance if not an introduction to them. At this point in IDW? No. Early in the run and used to help develop the characters sure.


Rat King in the 1987 cartoon needed a backstory. In fact I believed a Jonathan Crane-like origin fit him and gave it to him in my further scripts. Its interesting that Nick went with the mad scientist in an accident approach which is close to what I had in mind.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Would Triceratons be a safer bet? A big change from what the less knowledgeable movie goers are used to with TMNT, but it has the benefit of dinosaurs still being a bit of a draw and Jurassic World planning another, so... jump on that bandwagon and tweak people's curiosity with crazy looking space dinos? Kind of a mash up of Jurassic Park meets Transformers with the Turtles being the heroes of it?

Personally I'd prefer some more down to Earth stories, but if they need to do something more out there to get people's interest...

Produce one down to Earth film, and then follow it up with Triceratons and Utroms (and possibilities for the turtles to face John Bishop).

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I still hold Rat King/Baxter could work, especially with Introducing April as Baxter's assistant. And if studios will approve some of the crazier things coming out of comic book and super hero movies, I think Baxter and Rat King would get approved. No one can convince me that we need a Shreddder /origin movie to lure people in, no matter what.

Anyway, judging by recent news, we shall find out what the next TMNT movie will be soon enough...

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I still hold Rat King/Baxter could work

No bad idea, but wouldn't such a film would have a lot of scenes taking place in the sewers.

[Shinigami]

I just want the Rat King. Just once. Even if he’s done poorly. He’s my favorite villain hands down and has way more depth even in his first mirage appearance than most other villains.

[Shinigami]

He’d make a great good bad guy too. Like he’s just creepy and crazy, but aides them in their final battle. He could always return as an enemy.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Let Baxter Stockman and the Rat King study in the same university. When Rat King carries out dangerous expierments with chemicals, he is kicked out.

He takes the Rat King title to take revenge on society. Baxter Stockman invents his mousers, and promises the police to stop the Rat King. Who can imagine Baxter Stockman's real purpose with the mousers is to rob banks and become rich?

[MikeandRaph87]

Let Baxter Stockman and the Rat King study in the same university. When Rat King carries out dangerous expierments with chemicals, he is kicked out.

He takes the Rat King title to take revenge on society. Baxter Stockman invents his mousers, and promises the police to stop the Rat King. Who can imagine Baxter Stockman's real purpose with the mousers is to rob banks and become rich?

We have a winner!

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I have seen more good ideas on here, than I have in any of the post-1990 TMNT movies! :lol:

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

We have a winner!

If the Rat King will brainwash Splinter, I want him to use some kind of gas (like he used on Irma and Vernon in Leatherhead Meets the Rat King). Nickelodeon's Rat King was also great.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

I love the idea of Baxter Stockman and Victor Falco are Rival scientists who studied together. It would create a dynamic to tie the two villains together.

If you HAD to throw in the Origin into this movie (which I believe you don't), have the two scientists working on the ooze at the university with lab animals, and Have Hamato Yoshi be the university's martial arts instructor. There is an accident in the lab, Rat king and Baxter are affected by the ooze and flee, and yoshi rushes in to save some of the lab animals; four baby turtles. They are exposed to the ooze as Yoshi gets them out, and we all know what happens next...:lol:

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

have the two scientists working on the ooze at the university with lab animals

And let them work with strange chemicals discovered in the woods, and later it's revealed they landed there when an Utrom spacecraft crashed on Earth.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

And let them work with strange chemicals discovered in the woods, and later it's revealed they landed there when an Utrom spacecraft crashed on Earth.

Yeah, something like a quote ' this ooze is believed to have come from a downed alien spacecraft.... but that is of course preposterous!"