Obamacare ruled unconstitutional by federal judge

[Icebot]

Obamacare has just been ruled unconstitutional.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/federal-judge-rules-obamacare-unconstitutional-democrats-immediately-vow/story?id=59834094

[Andrew NDB]

Well, specifically the individual mandate (i.e., you don't want to or can't afford to carry insurance this year? get ready for a big fine come tax time!) part. Which I agree is unconstitutional... and unjust. I know a lot of hard-working people that have been getting hit hard by this, like my best friend's mom. She's been a dental hygienist for 30 years through a service that assigns her here or there. She pays out of pocket when she needs to go to the doctor and never gets employer-provided healthcare. Last 2 years bam, both times, $2000 fine for not having health coverage. Crippling.

Just for fun I went to the ACA signup page to see what it would do for me. It would be $400 more a month for me to sign up for it vs. the $60 I pay a month right now for my already crappy job-provided insurance, getting even worse deductibles than I do now. Are you kidding me?

[Candy Kappa]

It would be delicious if the Individual Mandate was a part of the stuff Republicans showed into ACA.

What a freakishly alien system you Americans have when it comes to healthcare.

[Vegita-San]

Just for fun I went to the ACA signup page to see what it would do for me. It would be $400 more a month for me to sign up for it vs. the $60 I pay a month right now for my already crappy job-provided insurance, getting even worse deductibles than I do now. Are you kidding me?

don't say that. you'll have all those democrats who think obama is wonderful and scandal free after you.

but, yeah. obama care, ESPECIALLY the kingly mandate that you HAVE to pay for it or get taxed, really needed to go.

[neatoman]

Time to wait for delicious outrage videos.

Funny thing, the plan that became Obamacare was originally put up by a republican, yet that almost never comes into consideration when people form their opinion of it. Really speaks volumes about what little difference there actually is between the two parties.

[Candy Kappa]

Really speaks volumes about what little difference there actually is between the two parties.

Well, they are both right-winged parties.

[BartAllen]

Well, they are both right-winged parties.

On that we can agree. The difference, in my view, is that the left tries to present itself like it's out to help people when in reality it just taxes them to death with a promise of fixing all of their problems.

I think you think 'the right' means fascism. It doesn't. The right is about small government and limited taxes. It wants people to be judged by their actions not their immutable characteristics. The modern political right is far more open to diversity than the modern left.

[IndigoErth]

The right is about small government and limited taxes.

The modern political right is far more open to diversity than the modern left.
:lol:

Maybe on paper where it sounds good. Not so good at putting it into practice...

[Leo656]

Well, the left definitely isn't much for diversity of THOUGHT, or belief.

"Think like me or you're a horrible person who deserves no peace" is a general rule over there. I mean, just going by what they say all the time.

To the topic, yeah, that system wasn't ever gonna work for me. I rarely go to the doctor, and I shouldn't be treated like a criminal for not wanting to buy something I don't really need. I always found that bit crazy.

[Redeemer]

It would be delicious if the Individual Mandate was a part of the stuff Republicans showed into ACA.

What a freakishly alien system you Americans have when it comes to healthcare.

Yeah honestly our healthcare system is a complete joke...... I am glad to hear they killed the individual mandate. Its so freaking stupid, if they want more people to sign up give a tax credit for those who sign up instead of penalizing those who don't. Or make a system that benefits people! (Mind blowing!) :o

[Andrew NDB]

People aren't looking at the big picture here. The core problem is that basic medicine, doctor visits, prescription drugs and all of that are about 10,000% higher than they need to be. When they bring that number down to the actual, fair numbers, we can talk about "healthcare for all," otherwise it would just be spreading out an INSANE and unjust cost to everybody who may or may not even be using it. But there doesn't appear to be any momentum on this at all.

[Vegita-San]

if the wrong people are making money head over fist, why should they?

[Andrew NDB]

And I don't get it. If I lost my job tomorrow and the medical insurance therein, then next month I break my leg and need surgery that costs $3000. Whether I have insurance or not, unless I have $3000 in my pocket to pay the cost directly or $3000 in my pocket to pay the $3000 insurance deductible, what's the difference here if I don't have $3000 in my pocket? The only difference is that I was being dinged every month for insurance payments when I had it. The idea that I need to carry insurance or face a fine just to be able to pay a $3000 insurance deductible I don't have for doctor visits I may or may not even have doesn't seem right at all.

[Candy Kappa]

I think you think 'the right' means fascism..

AHAHAHAHA!!!

No, don't be silly.

I think the American Republican Party is shady af, cause it is. I live in a country that have diverse parties across the political spectrum, and even our most hard right-winged party that isn't straight up the Nazi party isn't close to how hard right-winged the Repulicans are.

Fairly certain I've not stated that I think the Repuplicans are fascists, although they sure have some of the dendencies.

And that's what I mean when I say both American parties are right-winged, the Repuplicans are hard right and the Democrats are at best, on a good day; center-right.

[Redeemer]

People aren't looking at the big picture here. The core problem is that basic medicine, doctor visits, prescription drugs and all of that are about 10,000% higher than they need to be. When they bring that number down to the actual, fair numbers, we can talk about "healthcare for all," otherwise it would just be spreading out an INSANE and unjust cost to everybody who may or may not even be using it. But there doesn't appear to be any momentum on this at all.

Thats literally not even half the problem.....
Half the problem is Insurance companies price gouging people and set record profits....

[Andrew NDB]

Half the problem is Insurance companies price gouging people and set record profits....

Maybe so. But insurance costs are largely high because medical costs are high. The very essence of insurance, whether it is car or auto or fire, is the insurance company saying, "I bet you're going to get into _____ trouble (car accident, house fire, etc.)" and you saying, "No, I'm not." And then when you have to use it (for example, you break a bone and need medical attention), the insurance company pays out for it.

The trouble now is that when all of the medical costs and drugs and malpractice insurance associated with modern medicine in the United States, even basic things cost a ton of money (i.e., the blown out costs of things like insulin and epipens). A ton of money. So these insurance companies have to pay out a ton of money. So now we have HUGE deductibles we have to pay out of pocket before the insurance companies pay anything now, and when they do it isn't much.

So forcing people to pay and carry shi**y insurance isn't doing anyone any good beyond liberals holding hands going, "YAY! Everyone has insurance now, like the 'more advanced countries'!" while saving no lives. Let's fix the core problems.

[ABrown]

There are a lot of employers (like my current employer) who have been left with no choice over the last few years other than to stop offering PPO and HMO, and now only offer high deductible, due to the higher prices that the insurance companies have left businesses with since Obamacare began.

[Redeemer]

Maybe so. But insurance costs are largely high because medical costs are high.

This would be true except.... THEY HAVE BEEN MAKING RECORD SETTING PROFITS

Medical care is out of control yes, I can completely agree with that, but people act like its a single person, practice or cause that hurts our ability to have affordable health insurance, but it's multiple factors.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Am I the only one here who has actually been on the benefitting side of it? People like me and Mr D, who would be paying 800$ a WEEK OUT OF POCKET without it, for treatments that are literally keeping him alive. And that is JUST for the dialysis itself. That's more than my entire paycheck! But thankfully, he has his ACA aid. (This includes medications- his ACA insurance and Medicare/SSDI pay for almost everything. Our OoP expense for meds are usually 1-2$ per prescription.) My job, in contrast, offers only a plan that has a 6,000$ deductible, most of which is out of pocket, before it even pays anything. I turned it down. BUT! I don't even make enough in a year to have ever been "taxed" for not having it. (This loophole for low-income families was ALWAYS there, so I don't get the hate that people have for it, unless they make over the "lower limit" income to avoid the tax penulty. It is 24,000$/yr, btw.)

[Leo656]

Nobody denies life-saving care though. My father almost died a dozen times and had I don't know how many heart surgeries. He used to open his hospital bills just to show me and laugh, before throwing them in the trash.

If a person is in life-threatening condition, they still have to treat you. They just HOPE to get paid "something", but a huge number of people simply don't pay their medical bills. That's partly why everything costs so much on paper; they have to make up the difference somewhere. Nobody that I'm aware of gets denied life-saving care, and my family is full of broke, sick, and dying people.

Now, what actually happens is, you just ruin your credit. And if a person can't afford health insurance, their credit is probably already pretty bad anyway. But you can still get care if it's that serious.

I absolutely don't think it's a "good" way to get through life, but the idea that "People die from not being able to pay medical bills" simply isn't true.

In any case, I hope things get better for you both.

[Redeemer]

Am I the only one here who has actually been on the benefitting side of it? People like me and Mr D, who would be paying 800$ a WEEK OUT OF POCKET without it, for treatments that are literally keeping him alive. And that is JUST for the dialysis itself. That's more than my entire paycheck! But thankfully, he has his ACA aid. (This includes medications- his ACA insurance and Medicare/SSDI pay for almost everything. Our OoP expense for meds are usually 1-2$ per prescription.) My job, in contrast, offers only a plan that has a 6,000$ deductible, most of which is out of pocket, before it even pays anything. I turned it down. BUT! I don't even make enough in a year to have ever been "taxed" for not having it. (This loophole for low-income families was ALWAYS there, so I don't get the hate that people have for it, unless they make over the "lower limit" income to avoid the tax penulty. It is 24,000$/yr, btw.)

I think the ACA has helped many people, but I feel like we can do better. As I said before we should do away with the penalty entirely and make it a tax credit instead. My friend could not afford health care coverage, but did not qualify for assistance or medicaid and is about to get hit with the penalty unless he some how finds coverage soon.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Nobody denies life-saving care though. My father almost died a dozen times and had I don't know how many heart surgeries. He used to open his hospital bills just to show me and laugh, before throwing them in the trash.

If a person is in life-threatening condition, they still have to treat you. They just HOPE to get paid "something", but a huge number of people simply don't pay their medical bills. That's partly why everything costs so much on paper; they have to make up the difference somewhere. Nobody that I'm aware of gets denied life-saving care, and my family is full of broke, sick, and dying people.

Now, what actually happens is, you just ruin your credit. And if a person can't afford health insurance, their credit is probably already pretty bad anyway. But you can still get care if it's that serious.

I absolutely don't think it's a "good" way to get through life, but the idea that "People die from not being able to pay medical bills" simply isn't true.

In any case, I hope things get better for you both.


In theory, this is true, but that is for hospital care, not clinic visits for on-going treatments for "pre-existing conditions". Those, they most certainly can stop giving, if they don't see payments. They simply stop scheduling your treatments, and let nature take its inevitable course. Since the treatments are entirely voluntary and up to the patient to find a way to get to, they can do that. In other words, "if you can't get to your treatments or pay for them, we don't have to keep scheduling you for them". It sucks, but we've seen a number of patients who just went broke and stopped going on their own because they could no longer afford them. And they only last a few months after stopping. But the clinic has no obligation to continue them if they can't pay. (Though they have social workers who try to find ways to help with funding or insurance issues, but no guarantees there.) It may be different by state, but here, at least, hospitals HAVE to take you, but voluntary treatment centers don't neccessarily have to treat people with no funds.

[Leo656]

Is the E.R. equipped for this? Again, that's not ideal, I'm just spitballing possible solutions.

My Dad's diabetes wasn't as serious as your husband's, but he did have fairly serious heart disease alongside of it (as mentioned). I know he had MediCare and his monthly Social Security/Disability check was about $1200. I'unno how he actually paid for his insulin and all his other stuff, but he got it. And whenever he had need of anything else, he just went to the E.R. and laughed off the bill. Since he knew he'd be dead soon anyway. :razz: He was a character.

So I don't know, just trying to throw out ideas. Both he and my aunt were "dying" of serious disease (hers was advanced Emphysema) for 20-odd years before they finally kicked off. Both had very little money and nobody to help them out. But they managed to get everything they needed, somehow. if I knew more, I'd definitely toss it out there, I just don't have that information, because... y'know... I don't have a Ouija Board. :trazz:

I'd love to say it's because "NJ is more awesome than Texas". but even though that's undeniably true, I'm not sure that's the reason for the disparity.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Sadly, nope. Dialysis requires full admittance, ergo, moved out of er and into ICU, which they can and do eventually check you out of- after recommending a treatment clinic, of course. Now, it CAN be done at-home, for an insane amount of money for the machine, not to mention rewiring and minor home renovation costs to accomodate it (also, no pets, apparently the home has to be kept "sterile")- but the easiest and "cheapest" route is still in-clinic care, which has nurses, constant medical supervision and secondary treatment in case of emergencies (ie, heart attack, blood sugar issues, etc) attached. Far better than trying to do it yourself at home.

And even then, patients can literally die in the waiting room while waiting to be called back to get hooked up (it's anywhere from three to five hours with two basketball-gauge needles in one's arm or chest, for those curious). It happened to a guy here a few weeks ago. They were calling patients back, and when it was his turn, he didn't wake up. He had diedwhile sitting in the waiting room napping, and no one even noticed until they couldn't wake him. A couple have even died while hooked up. In any case, most ERs don't have a machine, you have to actually be admitted to the hospital iteself for that, due to the time required.

[Candy Kappa]

Three days ago my partner who have diabetes, had a serious hypoglycaemia episode that was like a seizure. First time in our 10 year relationship I've experienced that, so I called an ambulance and got help from the ambulance personnel when they arrived.

The idea of getting billed by an emergency like that is absurd.

[Andrew NDB]

Three days ago my partner who have diabetes, had a serious hypoglycaemia episode that was like a seizure. First time in our 10 year relationship I've experienced that, so I called an ambulance and got help from the ambulance personnel when they arrived.

The idea of getting billed by an emergency like that is absurd.

I wouldn't say it's "absurd," but it shouldn't be a crazy cost, either. Emergency medical professionals aren't working for the Church.

[Candy Kappa]

it is absurd. You pay taxes for a reason.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yikes! I've dealt with a few of those. Once was even so bad he was completely unconscious and unresponsive. Usually I can get some soda or something sugary down him without resorting to the paramedics, but let's just say they know his name by now. We usually don't go to the er, just get his blood sugar back up to normal levels while they are there, but yeah, the bills for such "visits" are ridiculous.

[Leo656]

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I highly doubt that taxpayer dollars come anywhere close to matching the overhead, not in the medical industry or anywhere.

Everybody'd have to be taxed over 50% of their income and we're absolutely not doing that. Taxation is already theft by design ("I did not agree to give you any of my hard-earned money; you just tell me I have to give it to you or else you'll lock me up. Why not just use a gun and make the whole thing honest, at least?"); asking people to throw in more than they already do isn't realistic.

[Andrew NDB]

it is absurd. You pay taxes for a reason.

But hospital workers and ambulance companies don't work for the government.

[Candy Kappa]

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I highly doubt that taxpayer dollars come anywhere close to matching the overhead, not in the medical industry or anywhere.

Everybody'd have to be taxed over 50% of their income and we're absolutely not doing that. Taxation is already theft by design ("I did not agree to give you any of my hard-earned money; you just tell me I have to give it to you or else you'll lock me up. Why not just use a gun and make the whole thing honest, at least?"); asking people to throw in more than they already do isn't realistic.

It's here in Norway, and no one pays 50% in tax. The person that pays that much in tax is a student that didn't file for a tax card, so that they'd get the overpaid amount of money back for summer vacation. I did that once, 'twas awesome and went to Disneyland.

Taxes are the price we pay for a civilized society, and enjoying societies goods.

I wasn't billed for the ambulance, my mom didn't have to file for bankruptcy when my appendix tried to kill me and my grandma didn't have to think about cancer treatment bills after my late grandpa. A healthcare system should be built on safety and quality not revenue and profits

But hospital workers and ambulance companies don't work for the government.

That's pretty f*cked up

[Leo656]

I don't think what works for 5 million people works the same for 325 million people.

I mean, maybe. I just know that when I teach a group class, for example, it's a totally different class if there's 5 people vs. 25 people. Some things just don't work universally, because not all things are equal.

I notice a lot of people from other countries who say, "The U.S needs to just do ____. Like us!" fail to factor in that things like total population are totally different, along with many other things.

What's good for the goose is generally NOT good for the gander, as it were. Otherwise this would all be a lot easier.

And while I agree that taxes are a necessary evil, it's still theft on its face. Anytime someone demands that you give them something, and you did not explicitly offer it, that's at the very least coercion. But that's a whole other debate. I agree that we need them, but I am very much against them being any higher than they already are. Some of us are already in a, "I can't afford to make more money or they're just gonna take more and I'll actually bring home less than I do now" situation. People shouldn't be "afraid" of getting a raise or working more hours, but it can cripple your paycheck, depending on where you fall in.

Sh*t's complicated.
-----------

Yeah, my buddy is an EMT, they don't get paid very well. Partly why so many of them burn out and get suicidal; the compensation they receive is in no way comparable to the life-saving work that they do.

It shouldn't be that way, but... well, if you notice, in life, whenever anyone says "I got into the ______ business because I want to help people," the flipside of that is, they're gonna struggle to pay their bills. That's why everyone wants to be in the NFL or NBA but nobody wants to be a teacher.

[Candy Kappa]

I don't think what works for 5 million people works the same for 325 million people.

Norway isn't the only country with a normal healthcare system.

But I guess baby steps would be for the US to stop being the Pharmaceutical lobby's bitch and actually do something about it instead of dismantling what little healthcare there is. *shrug*

[Leo656]

Well, we put ourselves in a bad spot by painting ourselves into the corner we're in, where pharmaceuticals are the only thing we produce anymore. Most everything else, we import. Thus, pharmaceuticals are going to remain a high-profit business.

It was incredibly short-sighted to outsource all the manufacturing jobs overseas, and it didn't happen overnight, but it is what it is, now. Drugs is what we make, drugs is what we sell, and drugs is what we're gonna make people pay through the nose for.

The flipside of not wanting to pay $75 for a T-shirt. Life sucks, cryin' don't help.

[Candy Kappa]

A in-US made t-shirt would cost $75, yikes.

[Leo656]

Probably. :lol: Especially if it was sold at a Rolling Stones concert.

[Candy Kappa]

Some people are willing to pay for that just because the shirt have a small crocodile for a logo.

Which is also absurd

[Andrew NDB]

YrRPH4gpKw0

[BartAllen]

Norway isn't the only country with a normal healthcare system.

But I guess baby steps would be for the US to stop being the Pharmaceutical lobby's bitch and actually do something about it instead of dismantling what little healthcare there is. *shrug*

Now this I'm in full agreement with you. Stop subsidizing the health insurance companies. Open the companies back up to the private sector encourage competition and the prices will drop. Premiums and deductibles went sky high after Obamacare was passed.

[Andrew NDB]

Premiums and deductibles went sky high after Obamacare was passed.

Yep. My premium went way up, the deductible increased about 500%, and the actual quality of my coverage went down. I really appreciated that, thank you.

[BartAllen]

Yep. My premium went way up, the deductible increased about 500%, and the actual quality of my coverage went down. I really appreciated that, thank you.

The company I worked for at the time actually revoked my health insurance completely because I was only part time. Then I was shown the premiums I would have to pay based off on my income at the time. It was either pay or insurance or pay for food and rent. I chose the food and rent.

Hell, I wouldn't even necessarily be against free health insurance for all similar to Canada or Norway, but how much would that impact federal rates?