US citizens crowdfund the border wall

[Andrew NDB]

It's up to 5 million after 3 days.

https://www.gofundme.com/TheTrumpwall?fbclid=IwAR36kWmky1QJ5QZztTaEzuCXdPNn vNd__JEtrtvSX1Ujs1QzezGfyGbFTBk

[Candy Kappa]

Well, it’s a way people do to get enough money for their absurd medical bill in the US, so why not Gofundme the dumb wall, Donald needs all the help he can get

[Andrew NDB]

so why not Gofundme the dumb wall, Donald needs all the help he can get

Not really. Everything is fine.

[Prowler]

Well, at least people who didn't vote for Trump and/or don't approve the wall will get less money taken from their taxes now, I guess.

Not a big deal. No one is forcing you to donate to the crowdfund. If you donate then it's your responsibility only.

[Autbot_Benz]

If the Maga Munchers wanna waste their money on a wall that will never get made good for them.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeesh, goodness gracious my social media feed is lit up with liberals angry about this, high-fiving each other about how dumb it is.

[Candy Kappa]

It is kinda stupid, but someone gotta line Donald's pockets for him

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

$hit keeps getting dumber the longer I live. :tlol:

[Autbot_Benz]

It is kinda stupid, but someone gotta line Donald's pockets for him

I thought Russia was already doing that 🤔

[Candy Kappa]

Hilarious! Someone made a troll gofundme named "Ladders to get over Trump's wall", and it's also gaining a lot of cash.

Maybe I should make one too $$$


I thought Russia was already doing that 🤔

We can't just have Russia help Donald with future pee cash, the racists true patriots gotta get in on that action too

[Andrew NDB]

It is kinda stupid, but someone gotta line Donald's pockets for him

Doesn't sound like you read the page.

[Candy Kappa]

Doesn't sound like you read the page.

I did, and those money is going straight into Donald's pockets. Especially now that his charity isn't there to funnel that sweet cash

[Andrew NDB]

I did, and those money is going straight into Donald's pockets.

Read it again.

[IndigoErth]

Personally, if Trump wants it so bad they should just let him pay for it out of his own pocket. If supporters of his want to pitch in, more power to 'em, but it's a shame that the rich guy won't just foot the bill himself and would instead accept it from people who need the money in the bank more than he does.

Or, I dunno, talk Mexico into paying for it like he claimed... lol

[Candy Kappa]

Read it again.

I wouldn't trust anyone on the Trump Adinistration housewatching a f*cking plant, let alone that they'd totes macgoats promise that the money goes to the wall, lawyer and contracts and all.

Donald will screw Kolfage over, it's what he do.

[Candy Kappa]

Although, Rudy as Donald's lawyer.... the money is probably safe after all :lol:

[neatoman]

It's up to 5 million after 3 days.

https://www.gofundme.com/TheTrumpwall?fbclid=IwAR36kWmky1QJ5QZztTaEzuCXdPNn vNd__JEtrtvSX1Ujs1QzezGfyGbFTBk

Well, at least it's not tax money...

[Vegita-San]

it would be hilarious if people are so pissed at the constant 24/7 anti trump stuff that they actually do manage to fund even half of it.

imagine all the whining we'll get from hollywood ;o)

[Autbot_Benz]

Although, Rudy as Donald's lawyer.... the money is probably safe after all :lol:

Ah yes good old Nosferatu

[MrPliggins]

8 and a half million down, 991 and a half million to go..plus 4 billion. This'll happen in no time.

[Andrew NDB]

It's like, really, really bothering people on a fundamental level that there are so many people out there willing to dig into their own pockets for the wall. They're pretending like they're just laughing at the people doing so but really it's just anger, pure and simple.

Social media is pretty hard to look at today, good gravy.

[Candy Kappa]

8 and a half million down, 991 and a half million to go..plus 4 billion. This'll happen in no time.


And another $20b, plus maintenance... maybe crowdfunding for that too? :lol:

[Vegita-San]

It's like, really, really bothering people on a fundamental level that there are so many people out there willing to dig into their own pockets for the wall. They're pretending like they're just laughing at the people doing so but really it's just anger, pure and simple.

Social media is pretty hard to look at today, good gravy.

it has been for the last two years.

it's not just trump derangement syndrome... at this point it's degraded into derangement syndrome.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Even if the wall isn't paid with tax-money, the project can hopefully be stopped before completion if Donald Trump loses in November 2020.

Meanwhile, time for a great song from days when walls were demolished and people didn't want anything to do with them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4RjJKxsamQ

[Vegita-San]

I just don't think a wall will be that effective.

Are there not ALREADY barriers/walls around to keep people out? yet somehow they get in. A wall would just stand as a symbol against illegal immigration more than anything.

[Andrew NDB]

My thing is, a better wall may or may not be 100% effective... but it is doing something to deter illegal immigration. As opposed to nothing. As opposed to just talking.

At present illegal immigration costs well over $100 billion a year. If that puts even a 10% dent in that a year, it pays for itself in 3.

And Trump was pretty open about Mexico paying for the wall "one way or another." The new trade deal with Mexico does that over time, quickly. Win win, all across the boards.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The biggest question is- what, ultimately, will be gained from it? It is unsightly, expensive, a detriment to the ecosystems along the border, and makes us look isolationist and paranoid as a nation. None of this is good. There are better ways to ensure "border security" than an ugly, environmentally hazardous, overpriced, and symbolically racist wall.

[sdp]

And Trump was pretty open about Mexico paying for the wall "one way or another." The new trade deal with Mexico does that over time, quickly. Win win, all across the boards.

Can you explain to me exactly how the new trade deal does this? I'm extremely familiar with NAFTA and understand the not so big changes they made to it when they decided to call it USMCA for PR purposes so I'm wondering how I missed this.

[IndigoErth]

Question... Do people who donate to things on that site get their money back if something doesn't really go through with?

If it very possibly never gains near enough (esp since the goal is a far cry from the real price tag), or if there were issues still in the way of building a wall that prevents it from happening...do these people at least get their money back or is it just gone? :ohwell:

I see that the guy behind it is a Vet. I hope that if this proves futile and their money can't be returned that he'd at least use it for a good cause, perhaps for vets.

[Vegita-San]

The biggest question is- what, ultimately, will be gained from it? It is unsightly, expensive, a detriment to the ecosystems along the border, and makes us look isolationist and paranoid as a nation. None of this is good. There are better ways to ensure "border security" than an ugly, environmentally hazardous, overpriced, and symbolically racist wall.


It's hardly racist.

Coming here illegally, is, well, illegal. There is a law abiding process that must be followed if you want to properly contribute to the good will of this country. The GOOD people from Mexico know how to come here the PROPER way, just like every other modern country.

We are probably one of the very few countries that treat illegals better than actual citizens in some cases. other places you're more likely to get shot rather than sent back.

[Andrew NDB]

"Illegal immigrant" is not a race.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yet MOST of the illegal immigrants said wall would "stop" are Latino, ergo- racist. In other words, that wall was designed for ONE purpose ONLY- to keep Central and South Americans (mainly Latinos) out of the US. It's about as blatantly bigoted as you can get. It would stand as a silent declaration that "we don't want YOUR kind here". Because illegal immigrants from, say.... Russia, India, or China? Would NOT be coming over/through the stinking wall!! In other words, it is directed SOLELY toward ONE ethnicity! Which is racist. Pretty simple.

[Redeemer]

I did calculations and the average per donation is $60 :o or the price of a brand new video game :lol: I wonder what the highest donation is ???

[Redeemer]

Yet MOST of the illegal immigrants said wall would "stop" are Latino, ergo- racist. In other words, that wall was designed for ONE purpose ONLY- to keep Central and South Americans (mainly Latinos) out of the US. It's about as blatantly bigoted as you can get. It would stand as a silent declaration that "we don't want YOUR kind here". Because illegal immigrants from, say.... Russia, India, or China? Would NOT be coming over/through the stinking wall!! In other words, it is directed SOLELY toward ONE ethnicity! Which is racist. Pretty simple.

I agree that we should not keep out or disenfranchise people based on their ethnicity.But that is not why we need to enforce immigration policy and protect our borders. Illegal Immigrants are a nuisance on our economy and resources. They undercut wages and take resources away from others who we really need to help. The people in Syria and other war torn countries need our help the most..... :(

I hate to spend more money on enforcing illegal immigration, but we need to do something... I am tired of these half-measures.... either all or nothing please!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I hate to spend more money on enforcing illegal immigration, but we need to do something... I am tired of these half-measures.... either all or nothing please!

You do know illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs, right? You want any new buildings built, commercial or residential, you ain't getting university-degree blue-blood American citizens doing that. Or the food industry. Or harvesting crops.

Dirty little secret... nobody's ever gonna really put a stop to it.

[IndigoErth]

Personally I've thought for a while that we need to build some kind of large facility at the border where people can stay, with just the basic amenities via solar/wind powered electricity, some kind of renewable water system, etc. Just the basics. Food is up to them. Maybe some charities could help and perhaps if they have money with them it could be a boon for vendors on either side of the border. It would be a safe place to go for people who really need to be there -- and while there they can fill out and submit their paper work for legal entry, and if they really need to they can stay there while they wait for approval (or rejection). Obviously it wouldn't stop the impatient who don't care, but for all those who'd at least care to do it legally, it would give them a place to stay for the time being instead of just trying to storm the gates or be locked up like in a detention center.

[Redeemer]

You do know illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs, right? You want any new buildings built, commercial or residential, you ain't getting university-degree blue-blood American citizens doing that. Or the food industry. Or harvesting crops.

Dirty little secret... nobody's ever gonna really put a stop to it.

You realize that is a bs lie you just told :lol:

Most= more than 50%

Illegal immigrants account for less than 15% of the hispanic/Latino population

So it is statistically impossible for most blue collar jobs to be accounted for by illegals.

But they undercut wages bc employers know they can pay them less bc they are illegally here taking jobs away from blue collar unionized workers.

So try again please :lol:

edit for facts. lol foreigners legal and illegal account for only 17% of construction workers lol way off from "mostly"

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Depending on your area, he is actually right. Texas has a fairly high percentage of construction and food service jobs held by immigrants. I should know- I work with a whole store full of them. More than HALF our crew are primarily Spanish-speaking immigrants, and the same is true of almost every chain restaurant in our town- which is a rural community with a lot of immigrant agriculture and construction workers. Oil fields and rock-haulers, Or even truck drivers in general. They make up a big chunk of our population here. Most speak only basic or rudimentary English- as evidenced by how often they ask "Espaniol" when ordering. Many also still have family south of the border, too. Don't know about up north, but here, at least, he is absolutely correct!

[Roseangelo]

The stupidest thing about this is that people have just given some random dude $10M with no accountability to actually build a wall. This isn't Kickstarter where you aren't charged unless you reach the goal. This guy has $10M right now.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Depending on your area, he is actually right. Texas has a fairly high percentage of construction and food service jobs held by immigrants. I should know- I work with a whole store full of them. More than HALF our crew are primarily Spanish-speaking immigrants, and the same is true of almost every chain restaurant in our town- which is a rural community with a lot of immigrant agriculture and construction workers. Oil fields and rock-haulers, Or even truck drivers in general. They make up a big chunk of our population here. Most speak only basic or rudimentary English- as evidenced by how often they ask "Espaniol" when ordering. Many also still have family south of the border, too. Don't know about up north, but here, at least, he is absolutely correct!

How many of them are living in the nation illegally?

[Leo656]

I used to work in the moving business for about 10 years, and know plenty of people working landscaping, construction, etc.

There's absolutely white people who want those jobs, do those jobs, and would be more than happy to stay in those jobs for a long time, if they paid a little better. And employers will and do absolutely throw it in your face that they keep your wages low on purpose because they can easily replace you with an illegal for half what you already make, so why pay you any more? "Sure, I can pay you $15 an hour to toil away in the hot sun all day long, which is scientifically proven to take years off of your life... OR, I can drive the van past any 7-11 at 6am and pick up a few guys who'll gladly take $5 an hour and never ask for a penny more." Unspoken is the message, "Be glad I give you anything."

A lot of people who use the "jobs white people don't wanna do" argument in favor of illegal immigrants don't exactly have a solid frame of reference. A lot of time they've never worked in those areas, or know anyone who has.
It's a real problem. Some people with very few other income options get laid off for several months a year; there's still manual labor being done, but it's being done by - you guessed it - the $5/hour illegal immigrants.

Now, the pragmatic side of me says, "Those white people should elevate themselves into better jobs anyway," which is what I did. But not everyone can. Lots of those people have had a lot of problems with law enforcement and are never going to get a better job, and lots of them still have families. Yeah, you reap what you sow and all that, but I find it unfair that so many of them struggle to pay their bills simply because other people are willing to do their job at half the pay - people who legally aren't even supposed to be here, no less. Like yeah, everyone's just trying to live, but get in line for f*ck's sake. If people can't understand the vulgarity of this, I can't for the life of me understand why.

That's to say nothing of situations like, "Single mother with two kids is late on her rent payment, gets evicted; 8 illegal immigrants share a two-bedroom unit across the hall, landlord looks the other way because he gets paid in cash. Homeless assistance supposedly provided by the state tells single mother and her two kids to sleep in her van until she gets a better job." :roll:

Lots of these things have happened to family and friends of mine, so frankly, I'm not brimming over with sympathy for the plight of those who broke the law to get here. They absolutely f*ck sh*t up for other people, and if you disagree, I say just be grateful it hasn't happened to you.

You haven't lived until you've heard a goddamn social worker tell you or your loved ones, "You're white, you're not supposed to have these problems." :roll:
-----------------------

This seems kinda silly, though.

[Andrew NDB]

It's also a HUGE misconception that illegal immigrants only occupy jobs that "no one wants to do." I know dozens upon dozens... and they work in all sorts of jobs.

[Vegita-San]

Yet MOST of the illegal immigrants said wall would "stop" are Latino, ergo- racist. In other words, that wall was designed for ONE purpose ONLY- to keep Central and South Americans (mainly Latinos) out of the US. It's about as blatantly bigoted as you can get. It would stand as a silent declaration that "we don't want YOUR kind here". Because illegal immigrants from, say.... Russia, India, or China? Would NOT be coming over/through the stinking wall!! In other words, it is directed SOLELY toward ONE ethnicity! Which is racist. Pretty simple.

uhm...

maybe because we only share a walkable border with one country, mexico?

and we don't have this problem with say, canada?

[Candy Kappa]

This just gets funnier and funnier

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/founder-viral-fundraiser-trump-s-border-wall-has-fake-news-n950636

https://www.denverpost.com/2018/12/20/border-wall-gofundme-fundraiser-castle-rock-colorado/

[Redeemer]

Depending on your area, he is actually right. Texas has a fairly high percentage of construction and food service jobs held by immigrants. I should know- I work with a whole store full of them. More than HALF our crew are primarily Spanish-speaking immigrants, and the same is true of almost every chain restaurant in our town- which is a rural community with a lot of immigrant agriculture and construction workers. Oil fields and rock-haulers, Or even truck drivers in general. They make up a big chunk of our population here. Most speak only basic or rudimentary English- as evidenced by how often they ask "Espaniol" when ordering. Many also still have family south of the border, too. Don't know about up north, but here, at least, he is absolutely correct!

No he is not..... :lol: I literally just provided statistical data that he is wrong... Anecdotal evidence stories are meaningless and differ from each person...... Statistically he is wrong and you are wrong. You may be telling the truth and Your city may simply be an "outlier" of most cities. But statistically you are both incorrect and over-exaggerating.

Show me actual statistics

[Redeemer]

sorry for back to back post but didn't want this buried in my text.

Someone just donated $50,000 last night :lol:

I wish I could throw money like that around :lol:

[Voltron]

Hey, if those dumb asses want to throw their hard earned money away for a con-artist's ******** plan, I say go for it.

At this point, Trump has zero credibility as a politician. Even if he gets $5 billion from his supporters, which is unlikely, his track record suggests that $4 billion dollars will not be used to build the wall.

The only good thing about this is that none of his supporters will mind that the $3 billion in donations weren't used as Trump promised, and none of them will see receive a cent from that $2 billion gift.

Even if he *IS* asked why that $1 billion was never spent on the wall, he'll just say that's how under budget he did it for.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You realize that is a bs lie you just told :lol:

Most= more than 50%

Illegal immigrants account for less than 15% of the hispanic/Latino population

So it is statistically impossible for most blue collar jobs to be accounted for by illegals.

But they undercut wages bc employers know they can pay them less bc they are illegally here taking jobs away from blue collar unionized workers.

So try again please :lol:

edit for facts. lol foreigners legal and illegal account for only 17% of construction workers lol way off from "mostly"

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

I dunno, man, it seems to be the case for my area: big ol' Texas. They don't speak English hardly at all, and 4 out of 5 of them are Hispanic. I don't have a problem with them, and I'm grateful that they do the jobs they do.

If they ain't illegal, then I'm assuming. No skin off my nose either way.

[Andrew NDB]

Hey, if those dumb asses want to throw their hard earned money away for a con-artist's ******** plan, I say go for it.

At this point, Trump has zero credibility as a politician. Even if he gets $5 billion from his supporters, which is unlikely, his track record suggests that $4 billion dollars will not be used to build the wall.

The only good thing about this is that none of his supporters will mind that the $3 billion in donations weren't used as Trump promised, and none of them will see receive a cent from that $2 billion gift.

Even if he *IS* asked why that $1 billion was never spent on the wall, he'll just say that's how under budget he did it for.

The ongoing narrative: "No matter what Trump does... it will be WRONG!"

[Redeemer]

I dunno, man, it seems to be the case for my area: big ol' Texas. They don't speak English hardly at all, and 4 out of 5 of them are Hispanic. I don't have a problem with them, and I'm grateful that they do the jobs they do.

If they ain't illegal, then I'm assuming. No skin off my nose either way.

Hey I am sure southern/border states have a more concentrated populous of illegals, the four states probably have more illegals and the further north you are the less illegal immigrants that populate the area I assume/ guess (I say that bc I don't have stats in front of me.) The information I said in previous post I got from actual stats.

[Andrew NDB]

Hey I am sure southern/border states have a more concentrated populous of illegals, the four states probably have more illegals and the further north you are the less illegal immigrants that populate the area I assume/ guess (I say that bc I don't have stats in front of me.) The information I said in previous post I got from actual stats.

Well, there's plenty here in WA. If I were extrapolate just based on the illegal families I know now, their extended families, their cousins... we're talking tens of thousands, and probably more.

It seems like the democrats are playing the long game here. Like, let all of the illegal immigrants in so that when they all have kids (which would be defacto citizens, if born here)... guess which party they'll be voting for in 18 years, complete with sob stories to liberal microphones about how their mom and dad snuck in illegally fought hard to have a new life in the U.S.? It's not a caravan of immigrants, it's a caravan of democratic voters in a generation.

[Sumac]

Yet MOST of the illegal immigrants said wall would "stop" are Latino, ergo- racist. In other words, that wall was designed for ONE purpose ONLY- to keep Central and South Americans (mainly Latinos) out of the US. It's about as blatantly bigoted as you can get. It would stand as a silent declaration that "we don't want YOUR kind here". Because illegal immigrants from, say.... Russia, India, or China? Would NOT be coming over/through the stinking wall!! In other words, it is directed SOLELY toward ONE ethnicity! Which is racist. Pretty simple.
It's like the wall will stop legal immigrants from Southern and Central Americas and it creation will disintegrate all Latinos already living in US.

Oh, wait.
It won't.

[IndigoErth]

It's also a HUGE misconception that illegal immigrants only occupy jobs that "no one wants to do." I know dozens upon dozens... and they work in all sorts of jobs.
Yet people aren't pushing politicians to outlaw and punish companies hiring them and being a major attractant in the first place. :tconfuse:

[Leo656]

It seems like the democrats are playing the long game here. Like, let all of the illegal immigrants in so that when they all have kids (which would be defacto citizens, if born here)... guess which party they'll be voting for in 18 years, complete with sob stories to liberal microphones about how their mom and dad snuck in illegally fought hard to have a new life in the U.S.? It's not a caravan of immigrants, it's a caravan of democratic voters in a generation.

Oh, absolutely. They don't even try to hide it, anymore.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Oh, absolutely. They don't even try to hide it, anymore.

lt's a sound strategy. And in the short term, Republicans get the cheap labor. Not sure what their long game is regarding immigration, though.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No he is not..... :lol: I literally just provided statistical data that he is wrong... Anecdotal evidence stories are meaningless and differ from each person...... Statistically he is wrong and you are wrong. You may be telling the truth and Your city may simply be an "outlier" of most cities. But statistically you are both incorrect and over-exaggerating.

Show me actual statistics


Your statistics assume a more or less even distribution, which is not the case. What may be true for a given area the statistics were taken from- may NOT be true for an area more directly affected by immigration. Also, statistics can and often are manipulated or skewed toward a particular bias or proposed "truth". Meanwhile, those stats would mean bupkiss elsewhere. Unless you can PROVE that is literally the case unilaterally nationwide, I'll take the unofficial survey of my own area as more indicative. It's called observational data. And no, it is not an exaggeration or incorrect- it is ABSOLUTELY true in large parts of Texas, given we have the longest shared border with Mexico of any US state. Such evidence as we both mentioned is just as valid as "pretty numbers", ie, stats made by questioneers- and you don't SERIOUSLY expect those immigrants to answer truthfully whether they are here legally, DO you?!! :teek: :tlol: :trolleye:


uhm...

maybe because we only share a walkable border with one country, mexico?

and we don't have this problem with say, canada?


BINGO! We don't see Trump demanding a wall against Canada, do we? What's surprising is that Canada isn't building their own wall to keep out the US citizens wanting to defect- er, immigrate to a country with saner government and better healthcare!


I dunno, man, it seems to be the case for my area: big ol' Texas. They don't speak English hardly at all, and 4 out of 5 of them are Hispanic. I don't have a problem with them, and I'm grateful that they do the jobs they do.

If they ain't illegal, then I'm assuming. No skin off my nose either way.

Exactly. Just in my town alone, the population (around 6000, btw) is split up with about 1/3 caucasian, with the rest mostly Latino or black, and some Indian(from India, not Native American) Middle Eastern, and a few Asians theown in. ) But primarily Hispanic, ie, Mexican. I know because I get a pretty good cross-section of them EVERY SINGLE DAY. Right in front of me, as both customers and coworkers. That's all the statistics I need. Maybe not as "pretty" or official, by some university or census study, but just as real. Texas is full of em, and yes, many ARE illegal. (That becomes obvious when one tries to speak to them and discovers that they barely speak English, and also tend to pay in cash- often in large bills. As in, under the table pay.)


It's like the wall will stop legal immigrants from Southern and Central Americas and it creation will disintegrate all Latinos already living in US.

Oh, wait.
It won't.

Ya missed the point there, Schecky. The wall is more a symbolic middle finger to Mexico than anything. Nobody said it would "get rid of" those already here, or that it would do more than act as a placebo to assuage the sensibilities of those who don't realize that the majority of illegal immigrants from anywhere but Central or South America are brought in BY DRUG CARTELS AND SEX TRAFFICERS. Who all have their own methods that basically make a joke of walls or other "barriers".

But said wall WILL be a barrier to OTHER "immigrants" who literally have neither knowledge nor concern for artificial bountries of man. See also, last remaining US Jaguars and Ocelots. To name just a couple. Oh yeah, and that wall? Will go right through a MAJOR Monarch migration sanctuary! Tearing up the land, destroying runoff pathways, disrupting territory of both predators and prey species of all kinds, ruining habitat of important plants..... The list could go on. But what do we care, if it keeps a few thousand illegals out? While we lose valuable natural resources. Way to misinterpret the meaning. AGAIN.

[Redeemer]

we are up to 13 million!! :lol:
This is crazy.

[Redeemer]

Your statistics assume a more or less even distribution, which is not the case. What may be true for a given area the statistics were taken from- may NOT be true for an area more directly affected by immigration. Also, statistics can and often are manipulated or skewed toward a particular bias or proposed "truth". Meanwhile, those stats would mean bupkiss elsewhere. Unless you can PROVE that is literally the case unilaterally nationwide, I'll take the unofficial survey of my own area as more indicative. It's called observational data. And no, it is not an exaggeration or incorrect- it is ABSOLUTELY true in large parts of Texas, given we have the longest shared border with Mexico of any US state. Such evidence as we both mentioned is just as valid as "pretty numbers", ie, stats made by questioneers- and you don't SERIOUSLY expect those immigrants to answer truthfully whether they are here legally, DO you?!! :teek: :tlol: :trolleye:

The statistics I gate was for the country as a whole which is what I thought we were talking about. :lol:

The word you are looking is External Validity. The statistics I provided has good External Validity for the topic if we are talking about the entire country as a whole which I thought we were talking about.

But also your observational data is meaningless bc you would have to extrapolate it if you wanted to apply it to the national, state or even city level. It would be fined data for your local community, but you would also have to us Cohen's D to calculate effect size to determine correlation to determine correlation strength.

But the data I provided from previous post is from the department of statistics not some media outlet or extremist trying to skew data to push an agenda. The data I provided is better than anecdotal/opinion based evidence that others have suggested in this thread.

I think we are getting off topic though talking about statistics :lol:

Bottom line I due agree your area may be different/outliar. But my point still stand that blue collar or working poor is not mostly made up of illegal immigrants, no where near it from what I can see.

[Voltron]

The ongoing narrative: "No matter what Trump does... it will be WRONG!"

How does it feel to be on the opposite end of that? Imagine the frustration of watching a great and internationally admired leader like Obama have to deal with a bunch of losers who wouldn't help make the country a better place.

Now we have this big orange nobody in office who literally is everything the GOP claimed Obama and the Democrats were, and he's getting the very just response from not only the left but his own party, as well.

Trump is a failure. Even in winning, the GOP have proven that all they can do is lose.

And just to refute your point, I don't feel that everything Trump has done is wrong. I was happy that he pulled out of the TPP, for example. That was a good move that protected our national sovereignty. I'm glad he banned bump stocks, too.

As for Obama, I wasn't fond of all his policies or decisions either.
Didn't like the increased drone strikes.
He bombed Syria.
Never went after the people responsible for the 2008 crash.

The list goes on.

What I'm trying to say is, if you want to discuss politics, some impartiality benefits everyone. Demanding total obedience to a political figure sends off creepy vibes.

[Metalwolf]

The ongoing narrative: "No matter what Trump does... it will be WRONG!"
I don't like Trump, but I think I can understand why he won.

You get a bunch of opposing people that get so enthralled with being 'progressive' and pie in the sky mentality that they stop living in the real world. They don't like to listen to normal people who have to live in the world and the consequences of any of these pie in the sky dreams, and frequently shut down any opinion that they don't like.

So they shut down the complaints of poor people that don't like illegals taking resources and jobs meant to help American poor. They don't mention the opinions legal immigrants who consider illegals to be 'cheats.' They don't consider that illegals poach wildlife and leave litter and garbage along the paths they take to get here.

They like to tell people that illegals do the jobs that nobody wants, easily forgetting that not everyone is middle to upper class like them, that yes, those jobs might not be what they want to do, but it doesn't mean other people have a choice.

The worst thing though, is that they have a derisive attitude towards those they think they are above. I think that is why Trump won, even if he can be an utter pig, at least he was also listening to people, and not telling them how they are dirt of the earth.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

They like to tell people that illegals do the jobs that nobody wants.

Not all immigrants are illegal, no matter what jobs they perform.

[Sumac]

Ya missed the point there, Schecky. The wall is more a symbolic middle finger to Mexico than anything. Nobody said it would "get rid of" those already here, or that it would do more than act as a placebo to assuage the sensibilities of those who don't realize that the majority of illegal immigrants from anywhere but Central or South America are brought in BY DRUG CARTELS AND SEX TRAFFICERS. Who all have their own methods that basically make a joke of walls or other "barriers".
By this logic, Ms. Buzz, we can abolish borders all together, since illegal groups will always find a way to smug illegals in the country.

Also, no-one said and most people don't think that THE WALL will stop illegal immigration all together or that it will be a panacea against it.

Also, sex traffickers nowadays called "sex workers". Get on with the program! :lol:

But said wall WILL be a barrier to OTHER "immigrants" who literally have neither knowledge nor concern for artificial bountries of man. See also, last remaining US Jaguars and Ocelots. To name just a couple. Oh yeah, and that wall? Will go right through a MAJOR Monarch migration sanctuary! Tearing up the land, destroying runoff pathways, disrupting territory of both predators and prey species of all kinds, ruining habitat of important plants..... The list could go on. But what do we care, if it keeps a few thousand illegals out? While we lose valuable natural resources. Way to misinterpret the meaning. AGAIN.
Humans are more important than animals.

I'd say, how about Mexico and other countries of the Central and Southern Americas fix their ****, instead of relying on Big Brother to do all the job for them or sending their people in another country for hand-me-outs?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The statistics I gate was for the country as a whole which is what I thought we were talking about. :lol:

The word you are looking is External Validity. The statistics I provided has good External Validity for the topic if we are talking about the entire country as a whole which I thought we were talking about.

But also your observational data is meaningless bc you would have to extrapolate it if you wanted to apply it to the national, state or even city level. It would be fined data for your local community, but you would also have to us Cohen's D to calculate effect size to determine correlation to determine correlation strength.

But the data I provided from previous post is from the department of statistics not some media outlet or extremist trying to skew data to push an agenda. The data I provided is better than anecdotal/opinion based evidence that others have suggested in this thread.

I think we are getting off topic though talking about statistics :lol:

Bottom line I due agree your area may be different/outliar. But my point still stand that blue collar or working poor is not mostly made up of illegal immigrants, no where near it from what I can see.

First, I've already stated that no, my "area" is not an outlier as you assume- this is literally the case for MOST of Texas! It is true of every town I've lived in, not just this one, and Cylons has confirmed it, as he resides here too. (As do a few others, who could probably attest to more of the same.) This state has a high concentration of immigrants from all over, but especially Latinos, and it's more noticable the closer to the border you get. But some cities, like Dallas, have high populations of them as well.

Second, no one has said "most" jobs in contruction, fast foid, etc are held by illegals, but there ARE far more of them than statistics show- for the simple reason that large numbers of them do not admit to it! At least not to "official" recorders. They don't want to out themselves, so of course they will say they are legal, or won't answer questions at all. So the numbers don't "lie" but they don't exactly show the true picture, either. Many will simply "disappear" the moment anyone "official" or who starts asking questions comes around. So you can expect to add at LEAST 5-10% to those numbers. No one is saying the numbers are "wrong" as "official" statistics- but those official numbers are lower than the ACTUAL numbers, especially further south.

Hope that clears up any confusion you may have as to what is being discussed there, but you can't just look at numbers and expect that to give you a real picture. You have to actually go out and LOOK for yourself. Which I see every day. The town I currently live in is much the same as the last three towns I have lived in, both large and small. It's easy to spout numbers and call it a day, but to actually be out where they frequent, and SEE how many immigrants are in an area is another matter. It shows how numbers fail at giving the true scope of things. Real life trumps simple numbers every time.

[Autbot_Benz]

Speaking of the Mythical Border Wall. Trump had a Trumper Tantrum and partially shut the government down because of not getting funds and tried blaming it on the Dems on Twitter. When he himself said he would be proud to shut the Gov down if he didn't get his funding.

[Redeemer]

You do know illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs, right? You want any new buildings built, commercial or residential, you ain't getting university-degree blue-blood American citizens doing that. Or the food industry. Or harvesting crops.

Dirty little secret... nobody's ever gonna really put a stop to it.

First, I've already stated that no, my "area" is not an outlier as you assume- this is literally the case for MOST of Texas! It is true of every town I've lived in, not just this one, and Cylons has confirmed it, as he resides here too. (As do a few others, who could probably attest to more of the same.) This state has a high concentration of immigrants from all over, but especially Latinos, and it's more noticable the closer to the border you get. But some cities, like Dallas, have high populations of them as well.

Second, no one has said "most" jobs in contruction, fast foid, etc are held by illegals, but there ARE far more of them than statistics show- for the simple reason that large numbers of them do not admit to it! At least not to "official" recorders. They don't want to out themselves, so of course they will say they are legal, or won't answer questions at all. So the numbers don't "lie" but they don't exactly show the true picture, either. Many will simply "disappear" the moment anyone "official" or who starts asking questions comes around. So you can expect to add at LEAST 5-10% to those numbers. No one is saying the numbers are "wrong" as "official" statistics- but those official numbers are lower than the ACTUAL numbers, especially further south.

Hope that clears up any confusion you may have as to what is being discussed there, but you can't just look at numbers and expect that to give you a real picture. You have to actually go out and LOOK for yourself. Which I see every day. The town I currently live in is much the same as the last three towns I have lived in, both large and small. It's easy to spout numbers and call it a day, but to actually be out where they frequent, and SEE how many immigrants are in an area is another matter. It shows how numbers fail at giving the true scope of things. Real life trumps simple numbers every time.

Well..... I was responding to Cylon who was talking about construction and food service which how this whole thing got started..... So I was on topic I am assuming you just missed Cylons post......

Cylon clearly states that Illegal immigrants are responsible for the blue collar work and specifically mentions Construction and fast food.

And in previous post I have reiterated what you are saying now. Even though I did not specifically look up stats to support your claim I DO AGREE THAT BORDER STATES PROBABLY HAVE A HIGHER POPULATION OF ILLEGALS WORKING IN THESE INDUSTRIES. I was simply stating that your areas and border states are outliers given that stats for the country as a whole.

As far as going out and looking for myself in my experience working in the fast food industry I never worked with an illegal before and I live in one of the largest cities in the nation. Top 10??? I think. I think my city actually has a lower than average illegal population than most of the big cities. FYI I worked at BK which is why I think we are butting heads lol

But I completely understand what is being talked about here.

[IndigoErth]

You know... If people on that side of the border want U.S. jobs, then maybe legitimately hire them to build Trump's precious wall, using the money from that GoFundMe to pay them, and then hire them to help protect that side of it. And as a merit-based incentive, for those who do well based on a required period of time in the job, offer to fast track their immigration documents when submitted.

Speaking of the Mythical Border Wall. Trump had a Trumper Tantrum and partially shut the government down because of not getting funds and tried blaming it on the Dems on Twitter. When he himself said he would be proud to shut the Gov down if he didn't get his funding.
Why must he be such a flip flopping asshat child. To have politics and choices that many don't side with is one thing, having a bad, jerky personality -- though terrible and not the representation we need -- is yet another... but this stupidness... "Will be proud to shut it down -- NO WAIT IT'S THEIR FAULT! BECAUSE I CHOOSE IT TO BE!" Ugh, just gtfo.

It's amazing how someone gets to the age he is with never developing any sense of personal responsibility; always the fault of someone else when things don't go well. Were they not dead his parents should be ashamed they failed so hard on those parts of him.

[Vegita-San]

the really sad part is, if this was something obama wanted, we'd be having a completely DIFFERENT reaction that was 100% supportive from the other crowd.


I get hating trump. he's an egotist. a falsity braggart... a rich snob. in other words, the perfect politicion on ANY side.

but trashing him like children 24/7 for the past 3 years not only doesn't get you anywhere, but also drives people over to his side.

hence, why so far $13 million has been raised for a border wall.
if you people had left him alone, I doubt it'd have gotten past 3,000.

[Metalwolf]

Not all immigrants are illegal, no matter what jobs they perform.
I know that. I am talking about illegal immigrants, the people that have no right to be here. There is a massive difference. 😒

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Well..... I was responding to Cylon who was talking about construction and food service which how this whole thing got started..... So I was on topic I am assuming you just missed Cylons post......

Cylon clearly states that Illegal immigrants are responsible for the blue collar work and specifically mentions Construction and fast food.

And in previous post I have reiterated what you are saying now. Even though I did not specifically look up stats to support your claim I DO AGREE THAT BORDER STATES PROBABLY HAVE A HIGHER POPULATION OF ILLEGALS WORKING IN THESE INDUSTRIES. I was simply stating that your areas and border states are outliers given that stats for the country as a whole.

As far as going out and looking for myself in my experience working in the fast food industry I never worked with an illegal before and I live in one of the largest cities in the nation. Top 10??? I think. I think my city actually has a lower than average illegal population than most of the big cities. FYI I worked at BK which is why I think we are butting heads lol

But I completely understand what is being talked about here.


No, I didn't miss his post. Actually, I was specifically referring to Cylons' posts and how he never stated that illegals hold "most" of those jobs, though truth be told, minorities in general DO tend to take those types of jobs (ie, blue collar, low-pay jobs) far more often than other types of jobs, because employers can get away with paying them less while still claiming compliance with Affirmative Action. As opposed to higher paying jobs, which are far less likely to hire immigrants in general, and certainly far less likely to hire illegals.

The funny part of this is that I know for a fact that at least three of my coworkers are immigrants, as they still go back to Mexico to spend time with family there. Maybe not illegal (though I suspect two of them are), but certainly they are a good example of the point.

In any case, a "nationwide" statistic still isn't going to show an accurate picture, since it A) doesn't account for higher concentrations of ethnic populations by region, and B) it doesn't even accurately portray the actual numbers, due to underreporting. So while they are fine as a "base", they don't really give an accurate picture. Unlike actually counting heads that literally line up in front of you.....

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Actually, I was specifically referring to Cylons' posts and how he never stated that illegals hold "most" of those jobs,

Come on, really?

https://i.imgur.com/nuQvbHf.png

[Voltron]

The funny part of this is that I know for a fact that at least three of my coworkers are immigrants, as they still go back to Mexico to spend time with family there. Maybe not illegal (though I suspect two of them are), but certainly they are a good example of the point.

In any case, a "nationwide" statistic still isn't going to show an accurate picture, since it A) doesn't account for higher concentrations of ethnic populations by region, and B) it doesn't even accurately portray the actual numbers, due to underreporting. So while they are fine as a "base", they don't really give an accurate picture. Unlike actually counting heads that literally line up in front of you.....

I find it odd that in all this belly-aching about illegals being hired, not once has there been a mention of regulating the businesses that do.

It has to be weird being caught between those two decisions. On one hand, we can't allow illegals in any way. On the other, we can't regulate business. The GOP runs on the whole free market thing.

To take it a step further, Trump's own staff are illegal immigrants. No one seems to care about that, either.

In the end, the conservatives don't have much solid ground to stand on. Every argument or demand they make often contradicts another. More money for workers but don't increase minimum wage. We need a wall, but we're ok with the POTUS hiring illegal immigrants. Abortion is evil, but we need to lock kids in cages.

I know how you feel. The incendiary comments are just that, and I always regret engaging. Instead, it might be better if we just start posting evidence of their constant lying and childish behavior.

[Sumac]

In the end, the conservatives don't have much solid ground to stand on. Every argument or demand they make often contradicts another. More money for workers but don't increase minimum wage. We need a wall, but we're ok with the POTUS hiring illegal immigrants. Abortion is evil, but we need to lock kids in cages.
Aside form its being usual liberal attempt at engaging "muh emotions" what locked kids (which was happening since your precious liberal angel Obama) has to do with abortion?

And how Trump's cronies are illegal immigrants? I'd like to read about it.
And, no, "Google it" won't be taken as answer or argument.

[Candy Kappa]

And how Trump's cronies are illegal immigrants? I'd like to read about it.
And, no, "Google it" won't be taken as answer or argument.

Not his White House staff, the housekeeping staff

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Come on, really?

https://i.imgur.com/nuQvbHf.png


He said immigration fuels those types of work, not that immigrants HOLD most of them. There is a difference. And his meaning was pretty clear as to the fact that immigrants take mostly jobs that others do not want. Which is true. It is a sad fact that low-paying jobs, no matter how important they are to infrastructure or services, are generally looked down on by the average white, middle-class citizen.

[Redeemer]

Come on, really?

https://i.imgur.com/nuQvbHf.png

Thank you I am glad someone else saw this.. I know I am not crazy or delusional now lol.... well maybe a little.... haha

He said immigration fuels those types of work, not that immigrants HOLD most of them. There is a difference. And his meaning was pretty clear as to the fact that immigrants take mostly jobs that others do not want. Which is true. It is a sad fact that low-paying jobs, no matter how important they are to infrastructure or services, are generally looked down on by the average white, middle-class citizen.

Really???? :lol:

Cylon specifically said "Harvesting crops" indicating a job or action. How he not talking about jobs?? :lol: How else is "Fuel the industry" suppose to be interpreted??? Like seriously???? :lol:

Please show a post were he said specially that immigrants take jobs people do not want bc it is not in that original post I was responding too. And I promise you people would love a good paying blue collar construction job. Fast food....maybe not... unless in high school or college.
And I have said this multiple times now I am sure border states have higher numbers, But I used the national average stats as a whole, bc I assume we were talking about the country as a whole.

I find it odd that in all this belly-aching about illegals being hired, not once has there been a mention of regulating the businesses that do.

It has to be weird being caught between those two decisions. On one hand, we can't allow illegals in any way. On the other, we can't regulate business. The GOP runs on the whole free market thing.

To take it a step further, Trump's own staff are illegal immigrants. No one seems to care about that, either.

In the end, the conservatives don't have much solid ground to stand on. Every argument or demand they make often contradicts another. More money for workers but don't increase minimum wage. We need a wall, but we're ok with the POTUS hiring illegal immigrants. Abortion is evil, but we need to lock kids in cages.

I know how you feel. The incendiary comments are just that, and I always regret engaging. Instead, it might be better if we just start posting evidence of their constant lying and childish behavior.

I think we are just arguing over word semantics at this point..... :lol: I apologize, MrsMarvelDuckie have pretty much derailed this thread :lol:

But as far as businesses being responsible as well is a good point. It would go along way if business would not hire illegals. I believe there are punishments for businesses who practice this, but I imagine that it is not regulated or the penalty is very minor and not a serious deterrent.

The GOP hasn't had a leg to stand on since they got trump in office. :lol:

Edit: It is almost at 16 million now... Can we put this money into our crumpling roads and other utilites instead???

[FredWolfLeonardo]

He said immigration fuels those types of work, not that immigrants HOLD most of them. There is a difference.

Firstly, he said illegal immigration, not just immigration which gives off a completely different picture.

Secondly, what is the exact difference? Please elaborate.

To me, saying that "illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs" paints a pretty clear picture of them having a significant hold over most of those industries, and not just a 1% contribution.

[Sumac]

Firstly, he said illegal immigration, not just immigration which gives off a completely different picture.

Secondly, what is the exact difference? Please elaborate.

To me, saying that "illegal immigration fuels most of our blue collar jobs" paints a pretty clear picture of them having a significant hold over most of those industries, and not just a 1% contribution.
Don't expect a honest answer.

This type of people, when cornered, rely either on appealing to emotions or on the combination of muddy semantics and solipsism, to cover the fact that they don't have arguments.

[Leo656]

Which is true. It is a sad fact that low-paying jobs, no matter how important they are to infrastructure or services, are generally looked down on by the average white, middle-class citizen.

If they're born into privilege or already accustomed to a certain "standard" of living, perhaps.

As I've already mentioned, go into any true "blue collar" area in America and you'll find absolutely no shortage of white people who'd be more than happy to do those jobs that they supposedly think they're "too good for". They simply don't want to be told they're not worth a living wage "because I could pull any random Juan Pablo off the street and do your job."

Any white person who says they're "too good" to mop floors or do construction has never missed a meal in their life. Hunger creates humility; there's a LOT of hungry blue-collar workers out there. And frankly, they find it insulting whenever anyone says that the work they ALREADY do is "work nobody but illegal immigrants wants to do". So we probably shouldn't talk like that, on account of it's both degrading, and it's NOT true.

It's NOT that "only illegal immigrants want to do those jobs." Total lie. "Only illegal immigrants are willing to do those jobs for $5-8 an hour." THAT is the truth. Those people are NOT doing us any sort of favor by being "humble" enough to scrub toilets for inadequate pay. If they weren't here, someone else would be doing it. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise, and it's bananas to flat-out say so. It pushes a false narrative that white people are lazy and entitled, and afraid of any work that's "hard" or "dirty".

The fact that at least two people I've worked for have been millionaires, and STILL scrub toilets and mop floors as part of their work routine - despite owning the place - kind of leads me to believe that people will do any kind of work that needs doing regardless of whether it's supposed to be "beneath" them. Again, I know from experience that people born into a certain status may feel entitled, but that's NOT the case for most working-class Americans.

[The Deadman]

the really sad part is, if this was something obama wanted, we'd be having a completely DIFFERENT reaction that was 100% supportive from the other crowd.


I get hating trump. he's an egotist. a falsity braggart... a rich snob. in other words, the perfect politicion on ANY side.

but trashing him like children 24/7 for the past 3 years not only doesn't get you anywhere, but also drives people over to his side.

hence, why so far $13 million has been raised for a border wall.
if you people had left him alone, I doubt it'd have gotten past 3,000.

If Obama announced he wanted a wall built, the Democrats would of had the funding for it yesterday.

[Vegita-San]

and the republicans would have blocked it.

wonderful system in place, huh? :) like looking into a mirror.

[Candy Kappa]

That's the way of a 2 party system

[Leo656]

I propose a one-party system... under extremely specific conditions...
http://m.memegen.com/rvuuoq.jpg

We need an eyepatch emoji. :lol:

[Candy Kappa]

Now I need to play some Metal Gear

[Prowler]

You guys want a game where you can play as dictators? Try the Tropico series. It's fun. And you get to be called El Presidente. What more could you want?

[Sumac]

There's also Evil Genius - a strategy / simulation, where you are controlling villain to conquer the world.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Thank you I am glad someone else saw this.. I know I am not crazy or delusional now lol.... well maybe a little.... haha

Really???? :lol:

Cylon specifically said "Harvesting crops" indicating a job or action. How he not talking about jobs?? :lol: How else is "Fuel the industry" suppose to be interpreted??? Like seriously???? :lol:

Please show a post were he said specially that immigrants take jobs people do not want bc it is not in that original post I was responding too. And I promise you people would love a good paying blue collar construction job. Fast food....maybe not... unless in high school or college.
And I have said this multiple times now I am sure border states have higher numbers, But I used the national average stats as a whole, bc I assume we were talking about the country as a whole.

I think we are just arguing over word semantics at this point..... :lol: I apologize, MrsMarvelDuckie have pretty much derailed this thread :lol:

But as far as businesses being responsible as well is a good point. It would go along way if business would not hire illegals. I believe there are punishments for businesses who practice this, but I imagine that it is not regulated or the penalty is very minor and not a serious deterrent.

The GOP hasn't had a leg to stand on since they got trump in office. :lol:

Edit: It is almost at 16 million now... Can we put this money into our crumpling roads and other utilites instead???


Well, if all you want to talk about is "national" statistics, sure, it's fine. But still underreported, which I notice you didn't address. 1%?! That's not even an accurate COUNT of the number of immigrants in general, much less illegals. But that's government accounting/census for you.

As far as picking crops goes, that is a whole other matter, since it is typically "under the table" work anyway. Most of that type of work is done in more southern states, or those with larger rural populations, and often DOES rely on "cheap" migrant/seasonal labor. Which is often not reported at all. I know this for a fact, due to having known a farmer who hired people to work his farm this way- in fact, my husband even worked for him for a short time while between jobs. It was all on a cash basis, with no record at all of being "hired". So there's your statistics right out the window for agricultural workers.

I agree that there should be bigger deterants and punishments for businesses that hire illegals- though that in no way would affect migrant field workers, who are paid seasonally and usually with cash anyway. They are "hired" unofficially, so there is generally no actual record of them ever being hired in the first place. The problem, aside from businesses not being penaluzed enough for hiring illegals(which would really only apply to service or construction companies, especially jobs like hotel or restaurant cleaning staff, and even cooks in many small ethnic restaurants), is that since they also either pay less or simply don't report hiring those individuals- or both- it's almost impossible to enforce. So the authorities often don't even bother to try, as it's not worth the time and effort to try to catch them. Plus, many such businesses rely so heavily on such workers that they would go under without it, further frustrating the issue. So there's another statistic that simply doesn't work in real life.


Don't expect a honest answer.

This type of people, when cornered, rely either on appealing to emotions or on the combination of muddy semantics and solipsism, to cover the fact that they don't have arguments.


How sweet, you were thinking about me again. Really, I'm flattered, but don't presume to know how I will respond. Feelings have NOTHING to do with this discussion, though it looks like there is some saltiness being added. As for your cute little comment, I'll just consider the source and refrain from any analogies between pots and kettles, or looking in mirrors.....


If they're born into privilege or already accustomed to a certain "standard" of living, perhaps.

As I've already mentioned, go into any true "blue collar" area in America and you'll find absolutely no shortage of white people who'd be more than happy to do those jobs that they supposedly think they're "too good for". They simply don't want to be told they're not worth a living wage "because I could pull any random Juan Pablo off the street and do your job."

Any white person who says they're "too good" to mop floors or do construction has never missed a meal in their life. Hunger creates humility; there's a LOT of hungry blue-collar workers out there. And frankly, they find it insulting whenever anyone says that the work they ALREADY do is "work nobody but illegal immigrants wants to do". So we probably shouldn't talk like that, on account of it's both degrading, and it's NOT true.

It's NOT that "only illegal immigrants want to do those jobs." Total lie. "Only illegal immigrants are willing to do those jobs for $5-8 an hour." THAT is the truth. Those people are NOT doing us any sort of favor by being "humble" enough to scrub toilets for inadequate pay. If they weren't here, someone else would be doing it. It's ludicrous to suggest otherwise, and it's bananas to flat-out say so. It pushes a false narrative that white people are lazy and entitled, and afraid of any work that's "hard" or "dirty".

The fact that at least two people I've worked for have been millionaires, and STILL scrub toilets and mop floors as part of their work routine - despite owning the place - kind of leads me to believe that people will do any kind of work that needs doing regardless of whether it's supposed to be "beneath" them. Again, I know from experience that people born into a certain status may feel entitled, but that's NOT the case for most working-class Americans.


This is true, but middle-class or even higher-end lower class whites and others STILL tend to look down on those jobs, especially fast food. Don't know as much about labor work (construction, moving, etc) but even people who have jobs with comparable pay seem to treat food service in general as "bottom rung/undesirable" work. Possibly because oeople assume it is easy and requires no skill or intelligence, when in fact, the work is much different than they think. I see plenty of them come and go, and some last only a few days before quitting, because it's not what they thought it was, and even if they need the job, they'd rather find something that is not as strenuous or fast-paced. They want the JOB, but they often quit quickly because it's more work than they are willing to do physically or mentally. So they use it as a "temporary" job to keep from being screwed on unemployment while they look for something "better".

On the other hand, MOST of the white workers that tend to take jobs in fast food, at least, are also very young, usually high school kids getting their first job, or paying their way for college. So they arrive from a background of knowing nothing about what the real world is like, and not having any prior job or actual experience doing physical labor. They get scared off, disillusioned, or otherwise leaving when they realize what they are getting into.

Older workers tend to stick around longer, but they are much fewer and often coming from similar work, or else only work temporarily after losing higher-paying jobs and trying to find another. Some only use it as a second job for extra money, or just to stay busy, whether they NEED the job or not. (I have had several coworkers who literally only worked there for "me money", because their spouses made more than enough to take care of everything and they were simply bored and looking for spending cash.)

[Leo656]

Well, there's a fine distinction between "look down on" and "don't want to make a career".

Ideally, jobs like food service or manual labor ARE "jobs" and not "careers", and people aren't wrong to aim higher. I had zero intention of staying in the moving and warehouse industry, but it took a few yeas for things to open up where I could take classes at night and get a better job; when the opportunity came, that's what I did, and what most people should do.

BUT. I worked in the low-end sector for long enough to know that lots of people are "stuck" and never going to move past entry-level work, whether they don't/can't drive, have a prison record, can't read, whatever. Whether it be circumstances or life choices, those people are never going to have the option to elevate, but they still need to make a living.

My thing is, it's a lot harder for them to do so when their pay and benefits are being constantly undercut by people who "cut in line". Whether or not it's anyone's "chosen" work, those low-end, blue collar and manual labor jobs are still the only option for a lot of people, and they'd absolutely have it better if they weren't being cut off at the knees.
---------

Teenagers entering the work force nowadays have far too much entitlement regardless of what field they try to enter. They all expect 50 grand a year and benefits just for showing up, because some idiot put that in their head. They assumed a free ride for life was their reward for graduating high school. It happened "in my day", too, but it seems to have gotten worse.
---------

Now I need to play some Metal Gear

If it ain't on the daily, you're livin' wrong. :trazz:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

I fully agree on the entitlement. Kids these days....

I dunno, as much as I agree about how many folks can't get anything "better" pay-wise, I also believe that those jobs are very much underrated in terms of importance to the modern world, especially with how HUGE that industry is. It is literally worldwide, and growing all the time in developing countries. There's a reason the arches say "billions serverd".

[Leo656]

Well, they're definitely important, but I do think there's a cap on exactly WHAT the compensation should be. Do I think someone working the grill should earn a decent wage? Absolutely. Should they earn as much or MORE than someone working 14-hour shifts in the hot sun? Absolutely not. And that's my problem with the "pay food service workers $15 an hour" push; the tide wouldn't be rising equally, and there's a very real chance that people doing backbreaking labor would suddenly be earning less than your average teenage fry jockey, and I'm definitely not okay with that.

As I've said, I'm definitely sensitive to the plight of those people who are "stuck" in a situation of, "I exist, thus I need more money in order to keep doing so, but my options are limited either by circumstance or life choices", BUT, at the same time, we need to be realistic about the fact that, for MOST people, those jobs are supposed to be a stepping-stone and not a career, and compensation should fall in line with that.

People in those areas could stand to earn a little more, but less than they most likely think they deserve, basically.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Oh, certainly, though when your income can't even keep up with your rent increase, I think it does make for a strong argument for higher minimum wage across the board. Especially when working 9-10 hour days on your feet with minimal time for even a meal break in a hot kitchen environment (and running around trying to do five things at once to keep up with orders). But both types of work have their physically demanding side, just in different ways. So wages should reflect that.

[Leo656]

I don't think people factor rent into ALL of these conversations enough. Both at home or at work, rent prices are high for questionable reasons and it affects everything else across the board.

Once upon a time at a staff meeting, we were going over our numbers for the previous month and we were way ahead compared to other gyms under our brand, nationally. We were all feeling good UNTIL the co-owner pointed out that our rent is astronomical compared to those places - many of which are actually much bigger gyms than ours - so our profits were actually negligible once the rent was factored in. There's been two empty stores at the end of our strip mall for over 5 years now, because nobody wants to move into that spot for what it costs; this hurts the entire strip's business because an empty space doesn't look good. We had another gym that we closed about three years ago, and THAT spot is still empty, too. It's in a prime spot, so you'd think it'd be booming, but it's just too damn expensive to put a business there.

I know land is "the one thing they're not making any more of", but these skyrocketing rent prices for both home and corporate purposes are what's really strangling everybody. People wouldn't need to make unreasonable demands about pay if only their cost of living itself was reasonable.

[Coola Yagami]

Or, I dunno, talk Mexico into paying for it like he claimed... lol

Lmao. Why would they? That's like saying Canada building a wall and randomly announcing that Americans will pay for it without even asking first.

[IndigoErth]

Lmao. Why would they? That's like saying Canada building a wall and randomly announcing that Americans will pay for it without even asking first.
Exactly. Anyone who ever believed for a moment that he could actually somehow force them to... yeah, I dunno, too much belief in Trump and not enough logical reasoning skills.

[Leo656]

Nobody can even "force" them to get proper plumbing and clean drinking water for most of their citizens. "In 2018!", as Rachel Maddow would say. :trazz: Ain't nobody making 'em do sh*t.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, fry cook is a stepping stone job and everyone knows it. I mean, I spent 10 years wasting away in fairly menial jobs living paycheck to paycheck... but I wasn't whining about it, and I certainly had no illusions that I deserved to be given a full, true living wage or beyond. I was just being "comfortable" and I knew it.

I look at all these stories from people working at Toys 'R' Us for 20 years, it getting shut down and losing their job and being shocked that they aren't being given $10,000+ severance packages or whatever. Unless you're on a management level, why on earth would you ever presume you'd be getting a severance package from Toys 'R' Us? Also, if you consider line level retail at Toys 'R' Us a "career"... stop doing that. It's not. It was never supposed to be.

Oh, certainly, though when your income can't even keep up with your rent increase, I think it does make for a strong argument for higher minimum wage across the board.

Raising the minimum wage every time the rent skyrockets (which is going to be forever, as long as the population continues spiraling out of control and housing struggles to meet the demand) is not a sustainable model.

[Leo656]

Raising the minimum wage every time the rent skyrockets (which is going to be forever, as long as the population continues spiraling out of control and housing struggles to meet the demand) is not a sustainable model.

Yeah, if people were truly serious about fixing the state of affairs, people really need to stop having kids. I mean, you say that and people get pissed, but what else can be done? If the problem is "Too many people and not enough room", the solution is, "Stop adding more people."

Like all the people crying about the "kids in cages" thing... this is gonna sound mean as hell, but their parents are the ones to blame. They had kids with NO plan on how to provide a life for them; their only "strategy" being, "sneak into a better country and steal from them", which is a terrible plan. "But they had a RIGHT to have kids!" No, they really don't. Take it from someone who was raised by two people who couldn't have cared less - having kids without any idea how you're gonna take care of them is the most selfish thing you can do.

It's not like there's no solution: Anyone hoping to have kids should have to prove an income of at least $100,000 per year and pass an extensive psychological evaluation. Nobody wants to hear it, but it's the only way to slow down the bleeding, and realistically, MOST people who have kids don't have any business doing so. But anyone who's poor or has addiction/mental health issues can't properly raise a kid, and should be taken off the list completely.

Again, sounds "mean", but are we serious about making things better, or are we just jacking off?

[Xav]

We are just jacking off. Merry Christmas.

[Mayhem]

Might all be a moot point anyhow :lol:

https://cardsagainsthumanitystopsthewall.com/

[Candy Kappa]

CaH is doing the lord's work :lol:

[ProphetofGanja]

We are just jacking off. Merry Christmas.

This was initially a very strange post without context :lol:

[IndigoErth]

Some family traditions sound really awkward in that case. :teek:

[Andrew NDB]

Democrats pass a bill to fund college for illegal immigrants:

https://neonnettle.com/news/6369-democrats-pass-bill-to-fund-college-for-illegal-immigrants-with-taxpayer-money

[Vegita-San]

Democrats pass a bill to fund college for illegal immigrants:

https://neonnettle.com/news/6369-democrats-pass-bill-to-fund-college-for-illegal-immigrants-with-taxpayer-money

I honestly don't see why this doesn't get more of an outrage from people.

so, basically, break the law, get a free ride....so long as you vote our way!

[Redeemer]

Democrats pass a bill to fund college for illegal immigrants:

https://neonnettle.com/news/6369-democrats-pass-bill-to-fund-college-for-illegal-immigrants-with-taxpayer-money

Wow...... that all I can really say..... the shear stupidity and entitlement they give illegal immigrants is freaking incomparable to grasp....... The money could be used for so many other things and given to people who ACTUALLY deserve it.

They could use it to help out LEGAL IMMIGRANTS first and foremost.... Like seriously this is like a slap to their face and spitting on them and their hard work to legally immigrate into this country.

I would rather see this money used to either A.) Help legal immigrants for schooling or just financially. B.) Put the money into construction. C) Allocate the money to public schools to improve resources or give teachers a better wage. I am sure some districts pay the teachers well enough, but I am sure others are struggling to get by.

Top 3 off the top of my head.

Now Andrew's comment is slightly misleading this is not for all Illegal Immigrants, but specifically (Dreamers). I do feel conflicted about Dreamers, because yes they are here illegally, but they came here has children usually with their parents. But I cannot support this or the Dreamer program or policy at all bc it promotes Human Trafficking .

And that's what it is nothing short or human trafficking. Anytime you bring other humans across the border of another country with you. It is human trafficking.....

I really hope we rework our immigration system sooner rather than later.....

Sorry for the rant.... :lol:

[Metalwolf]

@Redeemer

I think the Democrats want the bill because it is blatent virtue signalling and will 'pay off' in votes later. I suspect that legal immigrants probably aren't going to feel like they 'owe' a particular party their loyalty, whereas a party that appears to bend over backwards especially for you (illegal immigrants) will be the one you might feel to keep voting for.

I will be honest. I am a Dem, but I have been feeling as of late disgusted by my party's own hypocrisy.

They claim to love the environment, but will willingly encourage unchecked immigration of illegal aliens into a country that consumes more then it's fair share of resources, with the last thing the environment needing is more unauthorized people adopting US consumption habits. Along the way, these people will trash sensitive habitats and poach wildlife, because when you are trying to do something illegally, this doesn't matter to you.

They claim to love the poor and oppressed, yet will 'forget' about the previous group they claimed to champion as soon as a new and shiny minority they can virtue signal over and potentially mine votes from shows up. Blacks, the poor, gays and women in general used to be the cause du jour, now it's illegals.

They love these illegals so much that they treat them as pawns whose loyalty they can buy, rather then as people. They don't try to examine to see if US trade policies might have undermined Mexico's economy enough to cause it to tank, they don't try to work with Mexico to deal with the gangs that can be an issue for both countries, and any other issues that could cause a person to become a potential illegal immigrant and what would matter to them.

I won't vote Republican, but I think Democrats are so hobbled down by being enthralled with shiny new minorities and appearing 'woke' that they are becoming almost useless and brainless, rather then doing stuff that actually would make a difference in people's lives and that could prevent future suffering. They are all pop and no kick, and no longer have much worth to write home about.

[Voltron]

I'm writing this in the hopes that people might turn on their b*llshit detectors instead of going nuts when they read some slanted rag of a website complain about literally anything at all.

They could use it to help out LEGAL IMMIGRANTS first and foremost....

DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.

And that's what it is nothing short or human trafficking. Anytime you bring other humans across the border of another country with you. It is human trafficking.....

Taking your kid somewhere is not human trafficking. It's not like they're abducting their own children. It's not like their children protest the action because it's against the law. If a mother picks up her infant and crosses a border illegally, the child is just going along for the ride.


I think the Democrats want the bill because it is blatent virtue signalling and will 'pay off' in votes later. I suspect that legal immigrants probably aren't going to feel like they 'owe' a particular party their loyalty, whereas a party that appears to bend over backwards especially for you (illegal immigrants) will be the one you might feel to keep voting for.

Legal immigrants tend to loathe illegal immigrants. They often feel cheated having to spend years going through the naturalization process. And "virtue signaling" suggests that they didn't really WANT to do this, they just did it as a tactical move.

Is it so hard to imagine a government doing something to help the country out?

I will be honest. I am a Dem, but I have been feeling as of late disgusted by my party's own hypocrisy.

So they've already lost votes on it.

They claim to love the environment, but will willingly encourage unchecked immigration of illegal aliens into a country that consumes more then it's fair share of resources, with the last thing the environment needing is more unauthorized people adopting US consumption habits.

1. No one in the government is arguing for open border and unchecked immigration.

2. That's not how the environment works. If anything, it'd be more believable that they HELP the environment, since a lot of migrant workers end up doing hard labor on farms. It's so common that it's become a slur towards latin immigrants.

3. And even that image isn't accurate, since most illegal immigrants live in major cities.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-38914536/where-do-america-s-undocumented-immigrants-live

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/11/28/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

Along the way, these people will trash sensitive habitats and poach wildlife, because when you are trying to do something illegally, this doesn't matter to you.

1. Research shows that illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than the native population. This is because they usually came to the US to work, not go on a crime spree.

2. Even if they did, that wouldn't be applicable to the Dreamers, since they were children when they came.

They love these illegals so much that they treat them as pawns whose loyalty they can buy, rather then as people. They don't try to examine to see if US trade policies might have undermined Mexico's economy enough to cause it to tank, they don't try to work with Mexico to deal with the gangs that can be an issue for both countries, and any other issues that could cause a person to become a potential illegal immigrant and what would matter to them.

It's not the US's job to govern Mexico, or even to interfere in their government. Also, we shouldn't have to take a worse deal in order to strengthen another nation. Again, that's the other nation's job.

Our job is to make the best place we can for ourselves. Currently, we have a small group of lost children who were brought here in their youth and only know life in the United States. They're roots are here.

No path to citizenship lies open to them, and that's the real tragedy. There are people who are eager to become citizens THE LEGAL WAY but can't. Allowing them to be educated not only helps them, but the whole the United States.

We have a choice: we can either help these people become productive members of our society, or we can deny them that opportunity and let them be dead weight.

If you're angry about illegal immigration, everyone is. Welcome to the club. But this isn't the negative aspect of it. It's trying to correct a negative aspect. And if people are going to throw a tantrum over it, then they should come up with a better solution.

Hopefully it'll be better than "round up people in trains and deport them" which, again, will be on the tax payer's dime.

[Mayhem]

DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.
Indeed. Also see your other quote...

Research shows that illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than the native population. This is because they usually came to the US to work, not go on a crime spree.
Because likewise, if they were arrested, they'd be found out and deported as well.

Legal immigrants tend to loathe illegal immigrants. They often feel cheated having to spend years going through the naturalization process.
This too, you see it from people here in the UK as well. In fact some of the most anti immigration views come from past immigrants, oddly enough.

[Voltron]

God, I hope you're not being sarcastic. Just once I'd like to point these things out without having someone retort with "Oh, yeah? But what about the DRUGS?" or some other nonsense that completely misses the point of the discussion.

[Vegita-San]

This too, you see it from people here in the UK as well. In fact some of the most anti immigration views come from past immigrants, oddly enough.

maybe if they came here legally, and worked hard to earn the UK or American dream, they know that coming here illegally is unfair?

just a guess.

[Voltron]

maybe if they came here legally, and worked hard to earn the UK or American dream, they know that coming here illegally is unfair?

just a guess.

Again, people who come here illegally are not entitled to the same rights and benefits as citizens are. The only thing illegal immigrants get are what's given to them by employers willing to hire them. Which is why supporting American workers is very important, and why socialist candidates are becoming so popular.

Jeez, it's almost like refusal to reign in ultra-billionaires creates some sort of proletariat uprising. . .

[Andrew NDB]

DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.

That's not true at all. If you're applying for DACA status you're already in the country and ARE an illegal immigrant... and you literally ARE outing yourselves as illegal when you apply. I know two ladies that applied for it so far, one was granted and one was denied it (and they ask for a lot of proof, namely proof that you have been here since you were a kid and not, say, last week).

Which is the irony of Obama. Sneaky, sneaky... how nice that there's a list of where all the illegal immigrants are and DACA's future is far from guaranteed. The democrats sure aren't fighting for it.

[Redeemer]

I'm writing this in the hopes that people might turn on their b*llshit detectors instead of going nuts when they read some slanted rag of a website complain about literally anything at all.



DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.



Taking your kid somewhere is not human trafficking. It's not like they're abducting their own children. It's not like their children protest the action because it's against the law. If a mother picks up her infant and crosses a border illegally, the child is just going along for the ride.




Legal immigrants tend to loathe illegal immigrants. They often feel cheated having to spend years going through the naturalization process. And "virtue signaling" suggests that they didn't really WANT to do this, they just did it as a tactical move.



Sorry, I poorly worded this, lol actually I incorrectly worded it. but I define illegal immigrants as anyone who came here illegally. Dreamers by definition were illegal immigrants, bc they came over here ILLEGALLY. But by law they are now legal immigrants. This is my personal grouping. Essentially I see dreamers as Illegals even if they are here legally now.

also anytime you are brought over by Coyotes you are being trafficked. I never said or claimed parents trafficked their children. Please stop skewing my words. also may shock you but parents can be arrested for trafficking their children. :lol:

Also please stop saying illegal immigrants don't commit crimes bc they do..... they all do ounce you step into this country illegally you have committed a crime. When you work and choose not to pay taxes you are committing a crime. Driving without a license or insurance for a vehicle is a crime. Now to you this may seem trivial, but they have grave consequences for citizens of the country. Now I do believe illegal immigrants committing violent crime is overblown, but I don't have any statistics in front of me.

[Andrew NDB]

Dreamers by definition were illegal immigrants, bc they came over here ILLEGALLY. But by law they are now legal immigrants.

No, they're absolutely not. Dreamers -- which are absolutely still illegal immigrants -- have to apply for DACA status and they can be approved or flat out denied. Many are denied because they can't prove how long they've been here and since what age. Also, it costs them a lot of money to apply, regardless of if they're approved or not.

[Mayhem]

maybe if they came here legally, and worked hard to earn the UK or American dream, they know that coming here illegally is unfair?
Actually in this case, I mean any immigrants, legal or illegal. It’s rather bizarre.

[Voltron]

No, they're absolutely not. Dreamers -- which are absolutely still illegal immigrants -- have to apply for DACA status and they can be approved or flat out denied. Many are denied because they can't prove how long they've been here and since what age. Also, it costs them a lot of money to apply, regardless of if they're approved or not.

Actually, they absolutely are because you can only be a "Dreamer" if you're accepted and then protected by DACA. So they would be here legally, since that's how that works.

And good point about Obama. He figured out how to catch those illegals AND he made them do it without us having to spend billions on a stupid wall that won't work.

Fool! Now all you're precious little illegal immigrants will be deported!

Good! They're illegal immigrants. They shouldn't be here!

What sorcery be this? How can one wish to deport illegals while not swearing fealty to our Lord Trumpus Christ?

Because, again, no one ever argued for allowing open borders or for every illegal immigrant to magically become legal.

also anytime you are brought over by Coyotes you are being trafficked. I never said or claimed parents trafficked their children.

No, you aren't. There's a difference between the two.

https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/fs/2017/272005.htm

Please stop skewing my words.

Please start reading things.

also may shock you but parents can be arrested for trafficking their children

No sh*t?! It may also shock you that there're TWO shift keys on your key board. It may also shock you that ellipsis only have three periods. It may also shock you that, despite what everyone here thinks, I'm not some misinformed dumb ass, so please stop laughing like you one upped me.


Also please stop saying illegal immigrants don't commit crimes bc they do.....

I never said that. I said they were less likely. Please stop skewering my words.:lol:

Let me be clear: where violent crimes are concerned, the illegal population is, statistically less likely to be involved. Everyone knows they've already broken a law. "Illegal" is right in the title.

The point I want to drive home is: if we're going to argue that these people pose a serious physical threat, it doesn't hold up. There's way better arguments to be made against illegal immigration.

Another point (which isn't directed at anyone in particular): listening to shock jocks, reading hyper-partisan news, and using Facebook minion memes to enter into a political discussion helps no one. I know the "lame stream media" is demonized anymore, but that doesn't mean we should all be getting our news from huffpo or the Daily Mail.

[Redeemer]

Actually, they absolutely are because you can only be a "Dreamer" if you're accepted and then protected by DACA. So they would be here legally, since that's how that works.

And good point about Obama. He figured out how to catch those illegals AND he made them do it without us having to spend billions on a stupid wall that won't work.



Good! They're illegal immigrants. They shouldn't be here!



Because, again, no one ever argued for allowing open borders or for every illegal immigrant to magically become legal.



No, you aren't. There's a difference between the two.

https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/fs/2017/272005.htm



Please start reading things.



No sh*t?! It may also shock you that there're TWO shift keys on your key board. It may also shock you that ellipsis only have three periods. It may also shock you that, despite what everyone here thinks, I'm not some misinformed dumb ass, so please stop laughing like you one upped me.




I never said that. I said they were less likely. Please stop skewering my words.:lol:

Let me be clear: where violent crimes are concerned, the illegal population is, statistically less likely to be involved. Everyone knows they've already broken a law. "Illegal" is right in the title.

The point I want to drive home is: if we're going to argue that these people pose a serious physical threat, it doesn't hold up. There's way better arguments to be made against illegal immigration.

Another point (which isn't directed at anyone in particular): listening to shock jocks, reading hyper-partisan news, and using Facebook minion memes to enter into a political discussion helps no one. I know the "lame stream media" is demonized anymore, but that doesn't mean we should all be getting our news from huffpo or the Daily Mail.

Voltron I apologize. I am not trying to laugh at you like a "one upped" or anything along those lines. I using laughing emojis/ faces to try to break the tension of heated or sensitive conversation to try to keep it light hearted. I am literally the last person who should act superior to anyone else knowing how wrong I am at times. :lol:

I also apologize if my text seems to insult you in anyway. Text lack tone, therefore lacks intent and can easily be read differently than it was intended.

[Voltron]

Sorry, man. I get waaay too invested in debates. It's a terrible hobby to have, and I really gotta munch some xanax or something.

As far as being wrong goes, I'm in the wrong more often than not, too. Thanks for giving some push back on my condescending assery.

[Andrew NDB]

Actually, they absolutely are because you can only be a "Dreamer" if you're accepted and then protected by DACA. So they would be here legally, since that's how that works.


That's not true. A "Dreamer" is any illegal immigrant who was brought here at an early age (and though a ton of people seem confused about this, "Dreamer" has nothing to do with the DREAM Act... that act failed and doesn't exist, never did). A good percentage of those Dreamers are then eligible to at least apply for DACA if they have the money... at which point if they're accepted, they are temporarily legal until it's time to renew their DACA status, at which time they're on the chopping block again. But a Dreamer without DACA status is 100% an illegal immigrant.

And let's not lose sight of what DACA is. DACA was introduced as a temporary measure, a presidential note, to protect eligible Dreamers from deportation until an actual large-scale immigration solution could be reached. One wasn't, and the democrats aren't even fighting for DACA itself anymore.

[Voltron]

Again, I'm not confusing illegal immigrants with people who are currently protected under a federal order.

They exist in a legal limbo until this day because the current administration doesn't do anything at all about anything at all.

The DACA provisions were upheld on a national level by a federal judge, so any who had protection under DACA are still protected.

We're talking about an exceedingly small portion of the population when discussing DACA recipients. Constantly reminding people that some who apply aren't accepted doesn't change the fact that some are, making the article in question part of the Trump Derangement Syndrome that people love to talk about.

As Trump famously said, "we are a nation of laws". And as triggered and psychotic as wing nuts get over immigration, the rule stands that these people are legally allowed to remain in the country. Any and all complaining is just that and nothing more.

[Andrew NDB]

Again, I'm not confusing illegal immigrants with people who are currently protected under a federal order.

Yes, you are. You're confusing it left and right.

First you said "Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED." That's untrue. They are illegal immigrants all the way from the moment they apply for DACA until the moment if and when their application is approved. That they were brought here at a young age and thus have the nickname of "Dreamer" doesn't make them any less illegal. There is nothing that says someone applying for DACA and say, gets rejected, won't get a visit from ICE the very next week. It doesn't happen, of course, but it can.

Then you said "you can only be a 'Dreamer' if you're accepted and then protected by DACA." That's completely untrue. Again, you are a "Dreamer" simply by the virtue of being brought here at a youngish age... that is not a legal term. If anything, you could say, "You can only get DACA if you're a 'Dreamer.'" That is true, not the opposite.

They exist in a legal limbo until this day because the current administration doesn't do anything at all about anything at all.

If we agree that neither side is doing anything about it, then we're in agreement.

The DACA provisions were upheld on a national level by a federal judge, so any who had protection under DACA are still protected.

Correct. For now. Though no one on either side is expecting DACA to be a permanent thing. It will either expire or it will be replaced with something of more permanence.

As Trump famously said, "we are a nation of laws". And as triggered and psychotic as wing nuts get over immigration, the rule stands that these people are legally allowed to remain in the country. Any and all complaining is just that and nothing more.

Nobody is complaining about people who have DACA status. I'm complaining that you're misusing and misrepresenting very, very basic immigration language and law.

[Voltron]

I'm not confusing it at all.

If you're allowed to stay BY LAW then you are LEGALLY HERE, REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU ENTERED THE COUNTRY.

If they deny your status, then YOU REMAIN AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.

And I'm not misusing anything. I read an article calling people illegal immigrants when they're not. If they are, by all means have them deported Andrew. And when you can't, just explain to the lawyers and judges and everyone else how they're totally misunderstanding the laws wrote and uphold.

Also, the Democrats tried to make DACA permanent. Since the GOP is can't even be bothered to do run the government in the first place, why waste the time writing a piece of legislation that McConnell won't even read?

Don't act like everyone's complicit in something just because some douche bags in Congress can't be bothered to do something for the little guy. That's like burning your own house down with matches, then blaming everyone because they didn't help put out the blaze.

You don't get to blame everyone for your lack of empathy or lack of understanding.

[Andrew NDB]

Now I'm confused. Who is saying DACA approved applicants/recipients are illegal immigrants? I mean, I guess they could become an illegal immigrant again if they fail to renew their status or their renewal gets rejected (like if they're convicted of a crime in between renewals), but that's not my point. You are throwing around "Dreamers" and "DACA people" as if these are interchangeable terms. They are not. There can be Dreamers who never seek DACA (and why should they? when DACA goes away the government now knows where a bunch of illegal immigrants live) and stay illegal immigrants, or as you admit, if they're rejected.

Nobody asked, but personally I'm fine with DACA... as a one time thing, with a limited window for application and an infinite lifespan for the people who are accepted (and no, they don't get to vote and no, they don't get to sponsor their family either). After that, no more DACA. It sets a horrible precedent. You can drag your kids here and then they "win a prize" if you're sneaky enough and can successfully hide them out here long enough? No, that's not the way it should work. For the ones already here -- right now -- who have grown up to young adulthood? Sure, fine. But let's draw a line after that.

[Voltron]

As I understand it, that's your position.

From what I understand, you and I both agree on this (correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Illegal immigrants SHOULD NOT be in the United States of America.

2. Our borders are sovereign and must be and remain secure.

3. Ninja Turtles kick ass.

Where we differ, as far as I understand:

1. DACA APPROVED recipients are no different than illegal immigrants.


The article that spawned this conversation combines the two. It makes zero effort to explain that the funding and aid accessible to the DACA approved recipients is done so ONLY for those who were vetted.

It even goes on to put a disparaging light on legal immigrants.

To be clear: the issue of whether or not DACA recipients should receive welfare on behalf of US tax payers is understandably controversial. I'm not super gung-ho about paying someone else's college tuition if their future in this country is suspect.

The thing I take issue with is the vilification of immigrants in general. The "illegal" part seems to get lost in discussion, and by the end we're all at each other's throats on things we actually all agree on.

Personally, I have no problem with the whole idea of DACA. If someone brings a kid to a weird country, the child is raised in the ways and culture of THAT country, and has little to no connection with their country of origin, then it's kind a dick move to ship them back. None of this was their doing to begin with, and if they're making a solid go of being a decent part of American society, then who does it hurt if they're a productive part of our country?

[Andrew NDB]

Where we differ, as far as I understand:

1. DACA APPROVED recipients are no different than illegal immigrants.

I never said that, nor do I believe that. I mean, they're not citizens certainly, but they're no longer illegal immigrants by the letter of the law. Now, they were illegal immigrants for the entire period of time up until when and if they were approved for DACA. I think that's the distinction that we're getting wires crossed over.

To be clear: the issue of whether or not DACA recipients should receive welfare on behalf of US tax payers is understandably controversial. I'm not super gung-ho about paying someone else's college tuition if their future in this country is suspect.

I'm... OK with DACA recipients receiving welfare as would be afforded any other citizen. But only if it is agreed that DACA be a one time thing. There can't be, like, new DACA applicants forever. A one time good faith measure, I'm fine with that.

The thing I take issue with is the vilification of immigrants in general. The "illegal" part seems to get lost in discussion, and by the end we're all at each other's throats on things we actually all agree on.

Wisely spoken.

Personally, I have no problem with the whole idea of DACA. If someone brings a kid to a weird country, the child is raised in the ways and culture of THAT country, and has little to no connection with their country of origin, then it's kind a dick move to ship them back. None of this was their doing to begin with, and if they're making a solid go of being a decent part of American society, then who does it hurt if they're a productive part of our country?

No problem with that, as long as they're not a criminal or anything. But again, it can't stay like that (meaning, if we just keep accepting DACA applicants for decades), and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to sponsor their family in later on. Otherwise, look at the incentive. Sneak across the border with your kids, lay low with Uncle Ramos for a few years, and BAM... your kids can probably get DACA and you get to stay, too. Why wouldn't you leave Venezuela if you can just do that?

It seems to me that this generation today has forgotten that legal immigration even exists. There's lots of people out there who honestly seem to believe that the only way to immigrate is to sneak into a country and then hopefully get citizenship because they were crafty and sneaky enough. It's getting very strange to me. People banging signs around that say, "I STAND WITH IMMIGRANTS" and it's like... well sh**, I do, too. Of course I do, my mom immigrated here legally decades ago. And to my knowledge, there isn't one soul out there that is against legal immigration. So what are they protesting, exactly?

[Voltron]

I think legal immigration gets lost in the mix because we don't talk about it.

The way I see it, if people want to be Americans, and they're serious about it, the path should be there. As it stands, gaining that status is notoriously difficult to do. It's even difficult to get a visa for a temporary stay in the United States.

I have a lot of friends in foreign countries. They've all remarked on how difficult it is to get a working visa in the US as opposed to other countries. Australia and Canada seem to be the go-to in regards to that.

I went to a seminar about Japanese citizens going to US colleges. One presenter mentioned that Harvard has a limit of two Japanese citizens accepted every year. I was surprised at just how rigorous and strict the process is.

I do, too. Of course I do, my mom immigrated here legally decades ago. And to my knowledge, there isn't one soul out there that is against legal immigration. So what are they protesting, exactly?

A lot of people understand the focus on immigration to be less about border security and more about dog whistling racists.

Again, I want to be clear: I don't believe YOU are racist, or that every person who has conservative views is a racist, or that voting Republican inherently makes you a racist.

What I want to say is that there is a segment of the population that hear's "illegal immigrants" and doesn't think "people who are illegally entering the United States." They think along racial lines, and so the message resonates with them in a totally different way.

What ends up happening is that the lunatic fringe becomes the face of the issue, and everyone gets lumped together with them.

The same thing happens on the left. We have tons of socialist policies in this country that people either don't mind or enjoy. Police and fire, schools, libraries, etc. But there's always some group of weirdos who are for some bizarre Robin Hood Bolshevik dissolution of private property.

So now if I say "we should look into giving guaranteed insurance to children", people think I'm some foaming at the mouth crystal worshiping hippie. And if you say you want stronger border security, people think you're a banjo strumming mutant from some backwater shack.

We aren't, though. But two guys having a frank but calm discussion about politics never sold newspapers. If you get some jade egg kegeling harpy and a duck dynasty clone screaming about what Jesus thinks of maps. . .well, now we've got ratings.

In reality, we probably agree on a LOT more things than we think we do.

[Andrew NDB]

Not good:

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/02/27/nypd-ms-13-planning-to-target-off-duty-cops-at-their-homes/?fbclid=IwAR2LElVGMwWINCLcPjZqtrZCEAETe4rGiDAHHiJ9 Me7adlaF22ap97qPDHU

[Voltron]

While the threat has not been substantiated

Wow. So you mean being a cop is dangerous? And working to stop violent gangs are dangerous? That's some hard hitting journalism right there.

I mean, are they bound by some unwritten rule to NOT be cops and gangsters after the punch out for the day? Does some MS-13 thug walk into a convenience store and have to apologize for startling the cashier?

"Oh, sorry, man! I'm not here for protection money or anything. I'm off duty today. And tomorrow we're going to go deal some drugs, so you're cool for awhile."

[Andrew NDB]

Crowdfunding efforts going forward:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/veteran-founder-of-trumps-border-wall-rekindles-controversial-campaign-insists-construction-will-begin-within-months

"Nobody wants the wall" is what we're being told... yet everyone with property on the southern border is volunteering their land free of charge to do so? How strange!

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Everyone? No, it just said SOME landowners on the fringes of border states. That hardly counts as "everyone". And they are just letting them build, not "volunteering" their land. And it is only about 240 miles or so that they are even funded for. Across FOUR states with a combined border around 2000 miles long. Your rhetoric is showing.

[Voltron]

Ooo! Propaganda!

No. The American people have spoken. If the Wall is built, then Trump is doing something illegal. Another crime in a very long and ever growing list.

Also, thank you to MsMarvelDuckie for pointing out the flawed argument.