Splinter's origin story. [Archive] - The Technodrome Forums

Jarrah White

11-09-2003, 02:46 PM

While I'm only familiar with the 2003 series, I have read a bit about the old show. It seems that both series contradic each other when it comes to Splinter. In the old series, Splinter started off as Hamato Yoshi, a Foot Clan member who was forced to live in the New York sewers where his only friends were the rats. But one day he found the broken TCRI canister and the four turtles. When he retrieved them it started a mutation, because Yoshi had been exposed to all the sewer rats, the ooze caused him to mutate into a giant rat. And as the turtles had been handled by Yoshi the ooze caused them to grow to human size.

Whereas in the new series, Splinter was just Hamato Yoshi's pet. He learned the ways of the ninja by copying his master. But when The Shredder came alone a murdered Yoshi, Splinter ran away. Eventually he found the turtles and the canister and retrieved them, but the ooze caused them all to grow, to mutate.

Hmmm, which origin story do you prefere?

MW8979

11-09-2003, 02:50 PM

Definately the old TMNT show. The fact that he was once human helps explain why he knows Shredder and why he knows ninjitsu. I like how Shredder was his student who resented his master.

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 02:54 PM

i voted for splinter as a pet cuz i tought you were asking if that was the original, then i read your post and realized you were asking which one was my favorite :roll: , i preffer splinter as hamato yoshi cuz it makes more sense

Relay

11-09-2003, 02:59 PM

In the context of the old cartoon, the mutated a lot of people into whatever animal was closest to them at the time. Bebop and Rocksteady were a mutant warthog and rhino respectively because that is what Shredder got to mutate them with. Baxter was mutated with a fly because that was what was in the chamber with him. April was mutated into a number of things (like a cat) because that's what was nearby. I always thought that was kind of cool to be mutated with whatever animal you had come in contact with at the time of the mutation. Of course, I never understood how all these people were mutated into animals because they were in contact with those animals, but the Turtles were never human. They were always Turtles that just became larger and smarter when mutated. It's like they had two forms of mutation in that show that just didn't seem to fit well together.

After reading the comics since the old show and watching the new toon, I think I like the comic/new show version of mutation better. It just makes more sense. Both Splinter and the Turtles underwent the same form of mutation meaning they went from an animal to a bigger, more intelligent animal, so that meshes a lot better. Also, you've not got mutants coming out of the woodwork in every single episode. In the old cartoon, there was always somebody accidentally getting mutated or Shredder experimenting on. It made the whole mutation thing a little silly. I like the way the comic and new cartoon handle mutation a lot more.

Jarrah White

11-09-2003, 03:03 PM

We've got mutants in the new show, Stonebiter, Riserfist and Quarry. I've also heard Leatherhead is returning in season 2.

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 03:30 PM

Of course the original story is better. The only reason It was changed for the old cartoon, is the fact they couldn't show death in kiddies cartoon back then.

Splinter

11-09-2003, 03:32 PM

Yes, there are a couple cases of mutants in the new series. But they are few and far between. And I prefer the original mirage/movies/2003 toon origins for Splinter. The only reason the original toon went the way of having it be Hamato Yoshi, was because they couldn't have Yoshi being murdered by Shredder in the original toon. :)

Cascadia

11-09-2003, 03:33 PM

:nod:

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 03:33 PM

Heh, is there a echo here?

Splinter

11-09-2003, 03:34 PM

Heh, is there a echo here?
To be fair, I was typing at the same time you were posting. :P

MTN889

11-09-2003, 03:34 PM

holy $*it Jarrah this is like the 7th topic you made O.o

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 03:36 PM

Yeah, new people tend to bring back these VS threads...

Taloniss

11-09-2003, 05:21 PM

As a pet, since it's the original story, and screwing with origins is a no-no in my book.

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 05:33 PM

I've liked both, but my art of Splinter makes him more humanish...

Misfit

11-09-2003, 05:37 PM

As a pet. Don't really know why.

Deathknight

11-09-2003, 05:37 PM

The old cartoon origin I've always thought made more sense. This is yet another topic that has been brought up before. I say that rats may be smart but just because Splinter mimiced Yoshi in his cage undergoing a mutation of some sort wouldn't teach him how to use it or remember all of it.

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 05:50 PM

thats just how i feel

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 05:52 PM

Except that Splinter wasn't an ordinary rat to begin with. Besides the fact he was intelligent, he lived for over 15 years before he got mutated.

raphael90

11-09-2003, 05:52 PM

I liked the story of Hamato Yoshi turning into the rat...I kinda liked it that Splinter was an actual human instead of just an intelligent rat. The fact that he was actually Shredder's old sensei I thought was cooler than just a rat that attacked him from a cage. The other story wasn't bad, it was cool too, I just prefer the cartoon one more.

11-09-2003, 06:18 PM

Leo656

11-09-2003, 06:37 PM

I liked the "human-into-a-rat" version because it was just easier to believe in a way and seemed a little less ridiculous. I remember when I was 8 and saw the first movie in theatres with my older sister and my cousin; none of us had any idea about the Mirage comics, only the old cartoon, so we had no idea about Splinter's origin as a rat. We must not have been the only ones; when they showed Splinter as a rat doing kicks and stuff in his cage, almost the entire theatre erupted with laughter and a few "oh come ON"s as if it were the most ridiculous thing ever, and my cousin gave me a look like she wanted to kill me for dragging her to this movie. So I admit I never liked that version of the origin from the start.

I never heard anything about Splinter not being a normal rat until like today or when someone mentioned it like two days ago in another thread; where'd you hear that? Was it ever actually explained that he was already undergoing some sort of mutation, or is it just assumed?

I'unno, as I've said before, I know the entire thing about the TMNT is really farfetched in general, but for some reason I can buy everything EXCEPT a pet rat doing martial arts moves in its cage. :lol: So I like the other origin better.

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 06:41 PM

agreed.. :D

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 06:45 PM

Well I think it's far more ridiculous that some substance turns life forms what they had last touched. Especially since it happens instantly. With OOze it makes sense that it alters the DNA, and they actually grow to be diffrent.

And then, Hamato Yoshi touched the turtles, so why didn't he become a turtle? How can animals mutated to humanoids talk instantly? Well it's children's show, and they needed to find a non violent way to tell the origin. Logic or no, it did work for the old cartoon.

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 06:49 PM

no seriously, is not worse than a rat that mimics the master's moves

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 06:52 PM

That has already been explained. He was never a ordinary rat. Neither of theories are realistic, but for me the original one makes much more sense.

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 06:53 PM

none of the theories are realistic, thats true but this one is the least realistic one, way waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy less realistic, no matter how smart a rat is it wont be that smart

Leo656

11-09-2003, 06:57 PM

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 07:08 PM

Where was it explained though?

I guess I should say that I prefer the *concept* of the idea behind the "human-into-a-rat" mutation, not the execution. It definitely shouldn't have been an instantaneous transformation, it should have taken place slowly. But I guess they felt it needed to be condensed for time purposes in the old show so they could get to some toy commercials or something.

They said it a few times on the letters page. One other thing that bothers me is that the relationshop between Splinter and Oroku Saki isn't as personal. The again, they newer tried to avenge anything in the old cartoon, just stop Shredder's new plot.

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 07:13 PM

This is why I love the Archies. They made the fights with Splinter and Shredder Very personal. The archies are what the cartoon Should've become...

Leo656

11-09-2003, 07:14 PM

Ah mkay I must have missed it. I stopped reading most of the letters because I got sick of the way Laird would reply to people that said something he didn't like. Rather than get all worked up about it I just stopped reading 'em unless someone I know wrote in.

And yeah while I prefer the cartoon version of Splinter's origin (with slight differences) the cartoon's story as a whole really dropped the ball with the handling of the whole Splinter/Shredder relationship. It still could have been done well without killing Yoshi, it'd just take some more creativity on the part of the writer's, but telling a story took a backseat to selling toys in the old cartoon.

Splinter

11-09-2003, 07:15 PM

Where was it explained though?
Laird has said it numerous times, that he was always a mutant. That's why he had such a long lifespan, and could learn to do his masters moves from his cage, and retain all this knowledge. It was also detailed more in the TMNT RPG book that Eastman and Laird collaberated on. :)
Perhaps Splinter was never an ordinary rat. It is even likely he was a mutant long before the strange ooze from the broken T.C.R.I. canister started changing him. In any event, as a young rat he was very intelligent, smart enough to be able to mimic and memorize the ninja techniques of his owner, Hamato Yoshi. Years later he remembered and passed on the Ninjitsu techniques to his own disciples, the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 07:17 PM

So true. And have to agree with Machi, Archie was like well written version of the cartoon. And the later books even got pretty mature feel in them.

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 07:17 PM

so splinter was always a mutant?, how? this could make me change my mind :s

Leo656

11-09-2003, 07:17 PM

Wonder how it happened then. I'm not debating the fact, just saying this is the first I've heard of it. But again, as I've said few places around here carried the Mirage comic and just forget about the RPG and other stuff. I didn't even know what the difference was except for Mirage being black and white until I finally found an issue in 1999.

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 07:19 PM

I think neither Eastman or Laird knows the answer for that.

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 07:20 PM

So true. And have to agree with Machi, Archie was like well written version of the cartoon. And the later books even got pretty mature feel in them.

theyre startingto list the archies on the official site. And I myself love the Blindsight three parter. Incredibly mature for its time. I cried when I saw Mike being tortured on the US Gov't Boat... :cry:

Karpo_007

11-09-2003, 07:21 PM

I've been thinking I should buy the later issues. I have most of them in Finnish, but they are in terrible condition.

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 07:22 PM

I cried when I saw Mike being tortured on the US Gov't Boat... :cry:

when was mike tortured?

Leo656

11-09-2003, 07:25 PM

Ah one'a them "made it up as they went along" deals. I getcha.

Which is understandable, it's just another thing people do in comics that I don't like is all. I never liked Wolverine for the fact he was created without an origin and that everything we know about him was made up as the writers went along. Just always seems like lazy writing to me. Like "eh, we'll explain it when we get around to it." But what can ya do, right?

I will say that unexplained or no, if Splinter was always a mutant of some kind it makes more sense than it would if he were a normal rat. Me? I'm gonna say residual nuclear fallout from World War II because that's more of an explanation than what we already have. :lol:

Splinter

11-09-2003, 07:28 PM

I don't know about the made it up as they go on. Since they've been pretty much saying that since the beginning, it was always implied there was something special about him. So the fact that he was born a mutant, makes sense. They're doens't need to be ooze for there to be a genetic mutation take place in cells. :)

MW8979

11-09-2003, 07:30 PM

Heh, yeah, fallout. Remember kids - intense atomic radiation gives you super powers!

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 07:31 PM

In the Blindsight 3 part...

Okay...

Mike lost his sight during the family's world tour. They were fighting demons in Jerusalem, when someone threw a molotov cocktail. Mike lost his sight, and somehow the group got split, some going to space, others, who knows.
Well, Mike somehow gets captured by the US Gov't, and goes onto the USS Dator. The Dr. Richards has Mike tied to a table, with a person filming the "interview". He then used pliers, put a cigarettte out on his skin, and used an electric cattle prod on him.
Fortunately, Leo, Don and a few friends get aboard, and save their brother.They manage to get to their lil boat and escape, when the Doctor jumps over board to get Mike back, only to say that he cant swim. Mike, being the goodhearted turtle he is, jumps into the water, and saves him...

:D

Leo656

11-09-2003, 07:34 PM

I'm not saying they made up the fact that he was a mutant all along later on, I'm just saying they probably did it without giving any thought to how or why he was already a mutant, and that they would make up a reason later on if they had to.

SuperShredder: That's right, just ask Radioactive Man! :lol: "Up and ATOM!"

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 07:43 PM

about the torture thing was that mirage or image?

...fighting demos in jerusalem?

Leo656

11-09-2003, 07:44 PM

It was in the Archie comic.

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 07:46 PM

Extremely good comic.. :D

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 07:46 PM

O_O......the cigarette burn.......torture.........hahahaha!!.........arch ie............

what issue was that?

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 07:48 PM

Hey, dont knock Archie....

they branched away from the original 5 issues based on the cartoon, and became a wonder all their own...Its a perfect stepping stone, going from the nutty cartoon, to the more serious mirages... :P

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 07:55 PM

tell me the number of the issue please :)

Leo656

11-09-2003, 07:55 PM

Issues 59 and 60 of the Archie comic.

And yes, the Archie comic bore almost no resemblance to the old cartoon after the first few issues. Characters like Slash were given new origins entirely and there were a lot of elements from different world religions introduced. With Shredder gone, the Turtles spent a lot of time battling Null, essentially a demon from hell bent on taking over the world in the guise of a corporate businesman, and other such nemeses. Probably the high point for the series as far as violence and bloodshed was when the Mutanimals, a group of mutants including Mondo Gecko, were gunned down in violent fashion on orders from Null. Pretty damn graphic for a "kiddie" company like Archie.

Overall the Archie comic is among my favorite versions of the TMNT, even ahead of the old cartoon. It had a seriousness and depth of plot that the 'toon lacked.

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 07:58 PM

Thanks Leo! :D

http://www.geocities.com/tmnt_101/tmnt_comic027/027-april01.html

wonderful example of both archie AND Splinter... *love the bottom panel* :tlove:

I have realized, that it is not Chris Allen who drew this, but Garret Ho...Whom I also love dearly now.. :D

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 08:14 PM

i once read that comic off mirc, how the ninja fall soft as a feather or something, i don't remember i lost it

Jarrah White

11-09-2003, 08:15 PM

In the Blindsight 3 part...

Okay...

Mike lost his sight during the family's world tour. They were fighting demons in Jerusalem, when someone threw a molotov cocktail. Mike lost his sight, and somehow the group got split, some going to space, others, who knows.
Well, Mike somehow gets captured by the US Gov't, and goes onto the USS Dator. The Dr. Richards has Mike tied to a table, with a person filming the "interview". He then used pliers, put a cigarettte out on his skin, and used an electric cattle prod on him.Fortunately, Leo, Don and a few friends get aboard, and save their brother.They manage to get to their lil boat and escape, when the Doctor jumps over board to get Mike back, only to say that he cant swim. Mike, being the goodhearted turtle he is, jumps into the water, and saves him...

:D

CURSE YOU, US GOVERNMENT!

Leo656

11-09-2003, 08:18 PM

Not again... :roll:

Machias Banshee

11-09-2003, 08:25 PM

Any Government would do that...US, British, Japanese, Australian...its just how they are...

Splinter

11-09-2003, 08:29 PM

Any Government would do that...US, British, Japanese, Australian...its just how they are...
Exactly, they're mutant freaks. Infact they probably wouldn't even bother with poking and proding in some places. They'd move straight to the discetion process. It's human nature, not Goverment nature. :)

Jarrah White

11-09-2003, 08:37 PM

Let's get back to the topic at hand, shall we?

Bowser_Koopa

11-09-2003, 08:39 PM

no! never! i mean.........yeah ok, splinter was a mutant before the ooze we just don't know how........... :D

Splinter

11-09-2003, 08:42 PM

Let's get back to the topic at hand, shall we?
*coughs* Who went off topic, my friend. :wink: :P

jeff the cheff

11-09-2003, 09:54 PM

i think the one from the old cartoon was better

Savanti Romero

11-10-2003, 12:41 AM

The old cartoon's orgin never made sense to me. I like the pet version much better. It's more believable. The ooze contains somthing to genetically alter a creature to take a sort of human shape, but at the same time keep many characteristics from the original specimen.
If the ooze made a human change into a creature he had come in contact with, to me it seems a much more controlled environment would be needed. If Yoshi was touching a rat and then touched a turtle he would keep the rats form? So thats implying the ooze KNOWS what the first creature was the person came in to contact with and doesn't allow another creature to mix in, even if that other creature came shortly after?
To me the ooze isn't an entity which can decide on things like that. I don't know, it just makes more sense to me that he was a rat first especially because the turtles didn't mix with a human.

Pizza Face

11-10-2003, 10:42 AM

If they mutated into the animal they last touched, they would all be microrganisms. WHAT UP!

Savanti Romero

11-10-2003, 10:50 AM

So the your saying the ooze knows what the first animal was the human touched? And the Turtles didn't mutate with a human did they?

P.S. The roof.

Kali

11-10-2003, 10:58 AM

I'm gonna say that I favor the origin from the comics/new show because in my mind, it makes more sense.

In my mind, Splinter was given to Yoshi by a traveling shaman/mystic/wise man. And BTW, there are several other rats that this man gave out, just none of them mutated further like Splinter.

It makes sense to me, anyway. Y'all can believe whatever you want.

heretic888

11-10-2003, 11:34 AM

Its hard to dilineate these two specific points to determine which is "better".

Both the "Splinter was Hamato Yoshi" and "Splinter was Yoshi's pet" points exist within the framework of their respective stories. The Splinter being a rat point makes sense and is appropriate for the original Mirage storyline, as is the Hamato Yoshi arch in the old cartoon.

Thus, you can't actually separate the two from the greater story they are a part of. What we are really comparing is the Mirage/RPG/movie/new cartoon origin story vs. the old cartoon/Archie origin story.

The older, Mirage story is obviously a better tale with greater depth and intrigue in it. The old cartoon story was just made for little kiddies, because it didn't involve murder like the Mirage one.

Machias Banshee

11-10-2003, 01:49 PM

You've never Read the Archies, have you? I would take, from the way you post, that you have not.

Take another look at the Archies. Yeah, the first five issues are straight from the cartoon, but afterwards, it splits off into its own universe.

there is death (the mutanimals, Kid Terra, Charlie Lama, etc.)
there is 'history' (Splinter tells his tale of when he lived in Japan during the Hiroshima bombing, and his uncle lost his sight. He also tells the Japanese Mythologies of Izanami and Izanagi.)
there is Drama (The death of the Mutanimals, plenty of other deaths, both mutan and human, Michelangelo's blindness, capture and torture on the USS Dator, his and Splinter's Demutation, Ninjara and Raphael's romance and splitup, I could go on if i didnt have class soon...)

There is so much deepness that people dont know about, simply because they base the Archies off the first five issues, and ASSUME its just a "kiddie" comic. I can tell you that this had plenty mature material in it to shock me even now...

If i didnt have class in a short bit, I'd be able to tell you a bit more...but I think I'll leave that to a lil friend of mine... :evilgrin:

heretic888

11-10-2003, 01:57 PM

*chuckles*

You've never Read the Archies, have you? I would take, from the way you post, that you have not.

Yes, I have, actually. After the Mirage books, they are my favorite TMNT media format.

Take another look at the Archies. Yeah, the first five issues are straight from the cartoon, but afterwards, it splits off into its own universe.

there is death (the mutanimals, Kid Terra, Charlie Lama, etc.)
there is 'history' (Splinter tells his tale of when he lived in Japan during the Hiroshima bombing, and his uncle lost his sight. He also tells the Japanese Mythologies of Izanami and Izanagi.)
there is Drama (The death of the Mutanimals, plenty of other deaths, both mutan and human, Michelangelo's blindness, capture and torture on the USS Dator, his and Splinter's Demutation, Ninjara and Raphael's romance and splitup, I could go on if i didnt have class soon...)

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.

There is so much deepness that people dont know about, simply because they base the Archies off the first five issues, and ASSUME its just a "kiddie" comic. I can tell you that this had plenty mature material in it to shock me even now...

*chuckles* The "no murder because it was for kiddies" comment was in reference to the ORIGIN STORY... not the series as a whole. The Archie comic origin story is based off the old cartoon origin story, which was indeed tailored to not have killing in it so it wouldn't upset parents.

Laterz.

Jarrah White

11-11-2003, 12:08 AM

April was mutated into a number of things (like a cat) because that's what was nearby

:o :o

heretic888

11-12-2003, 10:36 AM

Actually, she was only mutated into a cat and possibly a hornet if memory serves me correctly....

Kali

11-12-2003, 10:38 AM

Actually, she was only mutated into a cat and possibly a hornet if memory serves me correctly....
She was also mutated into a fish at one point. And in the Archies, she was a Turtle for awhile.

heretic888

11-12-2003, 11:37 AM

Oh, okies. :D

Jarrah White

11-12-2003, 08:57 PM

Actually, she was only mutated into a cat and possibly a hornet if memory serves me correctly....
She was also mutated into a fish at one point. And in the Archies, she was a Turtle for awhile.

Forgive me for being only familiar with the old series, but. Purhaps you can give us a link to the Archives? Maybe a few pictures, this I gotta see.

Duke

11-12-2003, 09:20 PM

Actually, she was only mutated into a cat and possibly a hornet if memory serves me correctly....I don't remember her being a hornet. Was it in the archies cause i haven't read all of those?

Machias Banshee

11-12-2003, 10:32 PM

I remember her being turned into a hornet! I think Vernon had been changed into a dung beetle or something.... :ohwell: Baxter was up to stuff at the time..

Lisardo

11-12-2003, 10:35 PM

Definately the old TMNT show. The fact that he was once human helps explain why he knows Shredder and why he knows ninjitsu. I like how Shredder was his student who resented his master.

Yeah what he said. I didn't like the idea of a pet rat learning ninjitsu moves. I mean, that was BEFORE he got mutated and intelligent ya know. Of course I've heard rats are intelligent but not THAT intelligent. And yeah the fact that Shredder was his student was done well too. Plus it works nicely around, 'not being to violent for the kiddies watching'.

Lisardo

11-12-2003, 10:45 PM

And then, Hamato Yoshi touched the turtles, so why didn't he become a turtle? How can animals mutated to humanoids talk instantly? Well it's children's show, and they needed to find a non violent way to tell the origin. Logic or no, it did work for the old cartoon.

Ya know, I was always confused by that too. I'm surprized he didn't turn into a turtle. Unless they meant that Splinter touching the rats first had already taken effect on him, so touching the turtles at that point didn't matter. Like when its set, then that's it. But then you could argue that Splinter should have been a mix between, human, turtle, and rat.....and look really messed up. Ok so their story had a couple of loopholes. But it seemed to make more sense as to why the turtles became so smart. DNA is a complicated thing ya know.

Jarrah White

11-12-2003, 11:22 PM

This should clear it up, Yoshi was mutated into a rat because he had lived with sewer rats for years, he had only just found the turtles. Because he had been exposed to the rats longer he had picked up more rat DNA than turtle DNA. As for the turtles, they had been handled by pet store owners, the child who originally purchased them and Hamato Yoshi, there for it was obvious they'd grow into human-sized turtles.

heretic888

11-13-2003, 01:26 PM

I remember her being turned into a hornet! I think Vernon had been changed into a dung beetle or something.... Baxter was up to stuff at the time..

It happended relatively later on in the series. Baxter had turned everyone at Channel 6 into some kind of insect mutant. April was a hornet mutant, and Vernon was a spider mutant.

Yeah what he said. I didn't like the idea of a pet rat learning ninjitsu moves. I mean, that was BEFORE he got mutated and intelligent ya know. Of course I've heard rats are intelligent but not THAT intelligent.

Its been discussed at length beforehand that Splinter was *not* an ordinary rat, even before he was exposed to the mutagen. This is implied numerous times in the comic, and flat-out stated in the Mirage-based Palladium RPG. Rats generally only live a few years, whereas Splinter lived well over a decade before ever being exposed to the mutagen (and living 3 more decades thereafter).

Kali already discussed her pet theory that Splinter was a "gift" to the Ninja student Yoshi from a wandering shaman, mystic, yamabushi, or whatever. I'm not sure if that's in the comics or not, but it would make sense.

And yeah the fact that Shredder was his student was done well too.

The fact that Saki was the younger brother of Yoshi's rival Nagi was also done well. The new cartoon, in my opinion, ruins this very important angle to the TMNT mythology (while making Shredder some centuries-old demon, alien, or whatever is a cool aspect).

Ya know, I was always confused by that too. I'm surprized he didn't turn into a turtle. Unless they meant that Splinter touching the rats first had already taken effect on him, so touching the turtles at that point didn't matter. Like when its set, then that's it. But then you could argue that Splinter should have been a mix between, human, turtle, and rat.....and look really messed up. Ok so their story had a couple of loopholes. But it seemed to make more sense as to why the turtles became so smart. DNA is a complicated thing ya know.

Yes, this whole debacle was one of the big loopholes in the old cartoon's origin story. It seems odd that Shredder tried to use the mutagen to "kill" Yoshi, as I fail to see how the mutagen would accomplish this.

This should clear it up, Yoshi was mutated into a rat because he had lived with sewer rats for years, he had only just found the turtles. Because he had been exposed to the rats longer he had picked up more rat DNA than turtle DNA. As for the turtles, they had been handled by pet store owners, the child who originally purchased them and Hamato Yoshi, there for it was obvious they'd grow into human-sized turtles.

No, Yoshi had not "just found the turtles". In the original cartoon story, he had been in contact with them for quite some time before being exposed to the mutagen.

Besides, that's not how the cartoon mutagen works anyway. It mutates you into the form of whatever animal you LAST had contact with. It doesn't matter how much or how long that contact was. Many people in the old cartoon were mutated after having only touched animals for a few seconds before (such as Bebop and Rocksteady).

Laterz.

Karpo_007

11-13-2003, 01:39 PM

New cartoon's origin story was a slight disapointment for me too. I was hoping to see Tang Shen and Oroku Nagi, but I guess 3 deaths during the origin story would have been too much even for this show. On the other hand, Shredder as a Demon is definetly original idea.

Splinter

11-13-2003, 01:41 PM

Well, Yoshi was off feeding the rats when the ooze came into the lair and made contact with the turtles. So he came back, covered in rat DNA from touching them. Then he picked them up to clean them off, obviously he came into contact with the ooze before them, since they were covered with it. So his transformation into rat was already occuring the moment he picked them up. He may have also stepped into the ooze, to pick them up. :)

Savanti Romero

11-13-2003, 04:08 PM

Lisardo

11-13-2003, 04:12 PM

I agree, I was also dissapointed alittle with the FB origin story. And yes you're right, Shredder must be some kinda of demon or something cuz he had his had chopped off. So if Shredder's some old demon, then I can believe that Splinter is no ordinary rat then. Must be some kinda special creature with a unique power. Who knows, maybe when Splinter was some kinda reincarnated being, therefore making him 'special'. If you believe in that sorta thing. Just a guess.

heretic888

11-13-2003, 04:31 PM

The only thing that still kinda gets me is that the mutation makes you turn into the animal you were nearest to at the time of exposure right? (Thus, baxter, bebop, etc). So why didn't he turtles mutate in a hybrid with Splinter (a rat) and Splinter, in turn, mutate into a mix with the turtles. They themselves were the last animals they were in contact with after the exposure...in fact splinter had been livin under the sewers for some time prior to the ooze fallin into the drain...he should be even less likely to turn humanish than the turtles...(this of course goes for the pet rat story)

*coughs* The mutagen doesn't work that way in the original story (Mirage).

I'll agree with that. Just that the turtles didn't mix with a humanm, and splinter did doesn't make sense to me. I like that they were all animals and the ooze gave them human qualities.

*nods* Yes, as I understand it, the mutagen in the comic is supposed to be some "evolutionary catalyst" or the like, that evolved the turtles and Splinter thousands, perhaps millions, of years ahead of what they currently were.

I agree, I was also dissapointed alittle with the FB origin story. And yes you're right, Shredder must be some kinda of demon or something cuz he had his had chopped off. So if Shredder's some old demon, then I can believe that Splinter is no ordinary rat then. Must be some kinda special creature with a unique power. Who knows, maybe when Splinter was some kinda reincarnated being, therefore making him 'special'. If you believe in that sorta thing. Just a guess.

*raises eyebrow* Eh?? :o

Karpo_007

11-13-2003, 04:40 PM

My guess is Splinter's grandparents are from Nagasaki area.. :wink:

J Legault

11-13-2003, 05:27 PM

I'm more comfortible with the original orgin line of Splinter.
The Movies/Mirage/2003 one have the true origins.
When I viewed a Download of Turtles Tracks I see their Splinter's origin. That one is OK for the original cartoon. I know that cartoons in the 80s and early 90's can't have death meantion. since today it doesn't matter if there's death in action cartoons.

Since in the original origins, Splinter follows his master's skills and teach his sons the way of Marshal Arts.

Knowing the rat very well.

Leo656

11-13-2003, 07:11 PM

Well, not to be a wiseguy, but... he would indeed have to have been a VERY special rat, seeing as how the bone and muscle structure of normal rats would prohibit them from standing upright and doing martial arts. The same goes for the turtles.

That's why I think the mutagen did far more than simply make them all grow and give them intelligence. Somehow it must have seriously altered their bone and muscle structure as well to resemble that of humans. Hm, I wonder if that was painful? I never really thought about it that deeply before, but one could imagine that it would be.

And another thing... if Splinter was a normal rat before he got mutated... how'd he learn to read? How'd he know about Renaissance art? It's possible he could have picked things up here and there while Yoshi's pet... but not likely nearly enough to be the wise old sage we all know him as.

Stuff like that is why I always leaned towards the "human-into-rat" origin more. With some differences, of course. I thought the old cartoon had a FEW good ideas but they didn't do a great job of explaining it either. I like the concept of Splinter being Hamato Yoshi, but the way the old show executed it wasn't very good.

Anarchistguy

11-13-2003, 07:28 PM

Leo656

11-13-2003, 07:30 PM

Well you just explained the way I feel. Cartoon origin made more sense *in theory*, but the way they actually DID it was pretty muddled. The thing with Yoshi having last been in contact with the Turtles is just one area in particular they goofed on.

Splinter

11-13-2003, 07:31 PM

One thing that bugs the living HELL out of me about the 1987 origin: why in God's name did splinter turn into a rat when the last animal he was in contact with was the TURTLES?!

And i like the Mirage origin better. While the old cartoon origin made more sense, I REALLY hate it when people change origin stories.
No, he was last in contact with the rats. He made contact with the ooze first, when he was picking up the turtles to clean them off. Genetically as soon as they made contact with the ooze, both they and Yoshi would have been in flux for the change. Hence why he mutated into a rat, instead of a turtle. Sure, it's contrived and a stretch. But they couldn't have adapted the Mirage origin story. They didn't F*** it up by any means though, they did what they could with the way children's cartons were at the time. :)

Anarchistguy

11-13-2003, 07:35 PM

And were the TMNT half human in the 1987 cartoon?

Leo656

11-13-2003, 07:41 PM

The way I write it in my fics is that Yoshi was forced to flee to America, stuff happened and he was forced to live in the sewers amongst the rats, there was that accident with the truck carrying the ooze a'la Mirage, the Turtles got dropped into the sewer, Yoshi found them, cleaned the gunk off them (and exposed them to his own human DNA), then when he went to touch one of the rats (with the ooze still on his hands) it got spooked and bit him, therefore the more direct exposure to the rats' DNA took precedence during Yoshi's/Splinter's transformation. I also wrote it so that the change took place slowly over time rather than instantaneously. Yoshi noticing patches of hair/fur sprouting on himself, etc.

'Course, I also wrote it with the origin/intent of the ooze being somewhat different, too. The ooze as I wrote it was created by a company with some rather shady practices that was secretly experimenting with combining animal and human DNA in an effort to create a genetically-altered soldier for use in specefic combat conditions. Some people like it, some don't, but seeing as how I was never completely happy with either the Mirage or the cartoon origin for Splinter, I decided to write one that I was happy with.