Democrats gear up to investigate Trump

[Andrew NDB]

Just what we need, another investigation into Trump (running simultaneous to the other one, I'm assuming?) with, same as the other one, no cap on how much they're allowed to spend on it.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/28/politics/house-democrats-investigations-lawyers-hiring/index.html

[FredWolfLeonardo]

This is gonna be the real end of Trump! Any time now!

[Candy Kappa]

At this point, can't we just merge all the Donald threads into one.

Call the merged thread "Stupid Watergate" and we're golden, golden as a certain shower.

[Andrew NDB]

This is gonna be the real end of Trump! Any time now!

Yes, there's a lot of smoke! The tightening noose! ANY... DAY... NOW!

[neatoman]

Just what we need, another investigation into Trump (running simultaneous to the other one, I'm assuming?) with, same as the other one, no cap on how much they're allowed to spend on it.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/28/politics/house-democrats-investigations-lawyers-hiring/index.html

Trump only has one year left before the election, why not just encourage people to vote democrat in 2020?

[Vegita-San]

Trump only has one year left before the election, why not just encourage people to vote democrat in 2020?

because they don't have anyone to run against him in 2020. in fact, it looks like they've forgotten all about it.

the big bad boogey man has them so scared and angry, that they've devoted all their attention to him and become worse than him in the process.

[The Deadman]

Democrats are allowed to spend as much money as they want with these bogus investigations but as soon as Trump wants to spend money to build a wall, they're up in arms over using the money for that over healthcare, schools and other things they havent cared about up until this point.

[Autbot_Benz]

Democrats are allowed to spend as much money as they want with these bogus investigations but as soon as Trump wants to spend money to build a wall, they're up in arms over using the money for that over healthcare, schools and other things they havent cared about up until this point.

"bogus investigations" huh .I bet you were ok with the tons of "bogus investigations" into Benghazi the republicans did about Hillary and all the money they wasted :roll:

Trump's Wall is mythical Why should we have to pay for that wall. he clearly said Mexico was gonna pay for it.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, I want him to make good on his promise that they'd foot the bill, not our citizens.

https://i.imgur.com/qrV6A3j.png

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/64646696.jpg


because they don't have anyone to run against him in 2020.
Campaigning normally didn't used to even start this soon, so I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that there is little happening yet or few people to even suggest they might run. Personally I'm tired of 2 year campaigns and I doubt I'm alone. If they hold off for a while still (maybe until summer at least?) I'm totally okay with that. (But I bet once we hit the New Year it'll start up...)

I'm not exactly seeing any competitors for third parties yet either, nor any Republicans. While I guess it's rare for anyone to run against a sitting president of their own party it honestly wouldn't surprise me if one or two chose to do so.



edit: Wow, since he's leaving, what if Mattis ran or was in as VP alongside a strong contender...? I won't even assume a side since he supposedly doesn't affiliate himself with any specific party.

[The Deadman]

"bogus investigations" huh .I bet you were ok with the tons of "bogus investigations" into Benghazi the republicans did about Hillary and all the money they wasted :roll:


Oh you mean the investigations that had actual proof from her time as SoS. Gotcha.

[Andrew NDB]

Trump: "Let's build a wall."
Republicans: "Yes, let's build it!"
Democrats: "We're for border security, but NOT that!"
Republicans: "Then what?"
Democrats: "I dunno! Just not that!"
Republicans: "No, really... what's your counter proposal?"
Democrats: "I DUNNO! Just no wall, please!"

[Autbot_Benz]

Trump we are gonna build a wall and Mexico is gonna pay for that wall.


Also Trump. I need money for my wall which I said Mexico was gonna pay for but instead I am gonna shutdown the government over.

[IndigoErth]

If he wants it so bad, let him pay for it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

If he wants it so bad, let him pay for it.

That's an interesting question. It's probably been asked before, but I wasn't paying attention.

How much of the wall COULD Trump finance personally, if he so chose? What's the hairpiece's net worth?

[Andrew NDB]

He's worth about 3 billion according to Google.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

So, about half, then. Bet he doesn't want it THAT badly....

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

He's worth about 3 billion according to Google.

I see the same thing. And he's last said that the wall could be as little as $15 billion.

I'd give him credit if he liquidated some stuff and paid for, say, $1 billion himself. Show us he actually means it.

[Newton Gimmick]

I like the people complaining about the money being used on investigations, when you know, it's actually cost nothing, if not made a profit at this point. Mueller has been arresting Trump's cronies at a surprisingly fast rate and much of their Russian fueled money is going right back into our treasury to pay for the investigation.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/11/trump-tweet-mueller-probe-usd40-million-fact-check-paul-manafort.html

And even if you discredit that Mueller has actually earned more than he's spent, the Trump investigations have spent less than investigations into Reagan, Watergate or Bill Clinton, not even accounting for INFLATION!

[Andrew NDB]

On a base level, though, I kind of have a problem in general with investigations that are begun to look for one thing... and just end up finding completely separate things.

No matter how they spin it, nothing that has arisen has anything to do with Russia and Trump. Which was the whole point.

[Voltron]

If Hillary is being investigated, so should Trump.

It's a pity some people don't like to play by the rules, but if there's evidence that a crime was committed, let the authorities investigate.

[Andrew NDB]

If Hillary is being investigated, so should Trump.

It's a pity some people don't like to play by the rules, but if there's evidence that a crime was committed, let the authorities investigate.

Not quite apples to apples. Hillary was zeroed in on and that was that. Trump... it's, "Let's investigate everyone and everything, even the guy that sold him a donut 2 years ago!"

It's just disingenuous.

[Andrew NDB]

Let me explain a little more. I mean, let's pretend I am a governor and tomorrow it is suspected I am a Syrian spy for whatever reason. An investigation is opened strictly to that end... yet, they dig and dig and dig and get nothing, so they turn to my friends. Now my old friend goes to jail because it turns out he made some deal 10 years ago a little funny, or had liaisons with a secret lover or something and that's outed -- anything. But otherwise stuff completely disconnected from the investigation's goal.

Is that right?

I mean, wrong is wrong, and I don't dispute that. If said friend did wrong then that's... wrong. But should he suffer right now because of something completely unrelated, a course set under a banner of something completely different? Is this really something we should be cheering on?

[Vegita-San]

Not quite apples to apples. Hillary was zeroed in on and that was that. Trump... it's, "Let's investigate everyone and everything, even the guy that sold him a donut 2 years ago!"

It's just disingenuous.

and no one can tell me why everyone is out to get him.

the only reason I can think up, is that 1)he's not 'woke'. 2)He's rich. and therefore, can't be bought or sold as easily as anyone else. 3)He's not your average politician. therefore, a wild card in how he'll react.

all these things seem to scare the bejesus out of everyone. but, entering year 3.....so far, no nuclear war yet.

[Autbot_Benz]

and no one can tell me why everyone is out to get him.

the only reason I can think up, is that 1)he's not 'woke'. 2)He's rich. and therefore, can't be bought or sold as easily as anyone else. 3)He's not your average politician. therefore, a wild card in how he'll react.

all these things seem to scare the bejesus out of everyone. but, entering year 3.....so far, no nuclear war yet.

Its called Google and watching The News you might learn something

[Barkworm]

What has become of this section? It's looking more and more like a light version of Breitbart.com with its plain hillbilly idiots like Vegita and that big hillbilly idiot posing as an intellectual who is opening all these dumb threads...

[Sumac]

What has become of this section? It's looking more and more like a light version of Breitbart.com with its plain hillbilly idiots like Vegita and that big hillbilly idiot posing as an intellectual who is opening all these dumb threads...
Salty that people don't bleat your lefthanded ideology like a good little sheep? :lol:

[Voltron]

What has become of this section? It's looking more and more like a light version of Breitbart.com with its plain hillbilly idiots like Vegita and that big hillbilly idiot posing as an intellectual who is opening all these dumb threads...

Woah! Barkworm lives!!:o

[Vegita-San]

Salty that people don't bleat your lefthanded ideology like a good little sheep? :lol:

amazing how people can label one, just because they mention the name of their most hated enemy :).


https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7522WMYYkseyBo1G/giphy.gif

[Andrew NDB]

Oh noes, more articles of impeachment "introduced" (again):

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/03/politics/impeachment-house-democrats-brad-sherman-trump/index.html

[Vegita-San]

unsubscribed from jonathon frakes on twitter yesterday. when he retweets something like 'jane curtain wants to destroy the republican party' as if it's a good thing, then it's time to cut ties before all respect is lost.

it's amazing how many celebrities go cray cray.

[Andrew NDB]

unsubscribed from jonathon frakes on twitter yesterday.

I see he retweeted a gem from Michael Moore, too:

Michael Moore
If only guns were made of romaine lettuce. #recall #ban #33gotsick #33000gotshot

Yikes!

[beardcore84]

I mean, wrong is wrong, and I don't dispute that. If said friend did wrong then that's... wrong. But should he suffer right now because of something completely unrelated, a course set under a banner of something completely different?

In your scenario, he broke the law, and it was discovered, so... obviously yes?? The means to discovery make no difference. Break the law, pay the price. That's the american justice system for ya.

[Andrew NDB]

Mueller Russia investigation extended another 6 months, too:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/04/politics/mueller-grand-jury/index.html

[Voltron]

That's fine by me. It's already turning a profit for the US.

As opposed the $5 billion Trump wants us to pay for his wall. What happened to Mexico?

[Andrew NDB]

A fun read:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/41912/watch-students-slam-trump-wall-quotes-then-they-james-barrett?fbclid=IwAR1Benm1JdEnqlkHLu3hNcC6PwG9oj2Hr rRGRKDxxkzEoLJBM70Nbe22B3k

[BartAllen]

A fun read:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/41912/watch-students-slam-trump-wall-quotes-then-they-james-barrett?fbclid=IwAR1Benm1JdEnqlkHLu3hNcC6PwG9oj2Hr rRGRKDxxkzEoLJBM70Nbe22B3k

That's like the time people were using passages out of Mein Kampf while attributing them to one of the current liberals and people were applauding.

[Refractive Reflections]

Don't worry all you anti-Trumpers! He'll finally be finished this time!

qjUvfZj-Fm0

Such "unbiased" mainstream media journalism...
80ej-Y5YWOI

...I'm still surprised people here are still placing the mainstream media on a pedestal of credibility. :lol:

[BartAllen]

Don't worry all you anti-Trumpers! He'll finally be finished this time!

qjUvfZj-Fm0

Such "unbiased" mainstream media journalism...
80ej-Y5YWOI

...I'm still surprised people here are still placing the mainstream media on a pedestal of credibility. :lol:

The problem is there are actual things he's done that they can go after him for. But they focus on his taxes (a rich guy cheating his taxes? Shock) and then they're trying to go after him for this nonsense Russian collusion. They can't even explain how that's illegal. So what if he colluded with Russia to besmirch Hillary Clinton. It's not like the United States has never colluded with a foreign power to influence their elections. Hell, Obozzo made a commercial promoting Macron. That's collusion.

I don't know how anyone can trust the MSM either. 95 percent of the media is owned by 6 corporate entities that are being directly harmed by Trumps protectionist policies... Of course the news is going to have a bias against him. They create narratives. They're not reporting the news.

[The Deadman]

Trump could cure cancer tomorrow and the media would say he conspired with Russia for it to happen.

[Candy Kappa]

Maybe if the cure to cancer is eating a obscene amount of junk food :lol:

anyway, no one learned from the last political thread?

[Voltron]

This isn't exactly a free exchange of ideas. It's more just a round table of "cucking libtards".

As much as Trump could cure cancer and still be considered a villain by some, he could literally CAUSE cancer and still be adored by others.

It's weird. I feel like we live in different dimensions. We're convinced of two completely separate realities. The only similarities being that Donald Trump is the POTUS.

Weird.

[BartAllen]

Trump could cure cancer tomorrow and the media would say he conspired with Russia for it to happen.

I'm not entirely sure of that. Chris Cuomo surprised me the other week. He talked about how the wall isn't necessarily a bad idea. He also pointed out the hypocrisy of congress being so against it now when less than a decade ago they were in favor of it. Granted, that wasn't praise of Trump, but it showed that he is at least judging the situation based on the merits of said situation.

Now if we could only get the rest of the media to follow suit.


As much as Trump could cure cancer and still be considered a villain by some, he could literally CAUSE cancer and still be adored by others.

It's weird. I feel like we live in different dimensions. We're convinced of two completely separate realities. The only similarities being that Donald Trump is the POTUS.

I like this. It's a reasonable response. Nice.

I don't believe in 'owning libtards'. I have a number of friends and relatives that are progressive socialists. I have heated debates with them often. I think they do raise some valid points. I'm always willing to listen to unbiased sources. The problem is the MSM is biased. It wants ratings and Trump is giving them ratings. So it's in their best interest to stoke the flames of all the nonsense.

That said, there has been enough time that I feel the Russian collusion is bunk. Mueller is a smart guy. Trump is a buffoon. I really do think that if there was 'collusion' (how is that illegal anyway?) that Mueller would have gone forward with... something.

Now. The reason I think they're going after his taxes is probably because in the 80s it was alleged that Trump laundered money for organized crime. I wouldn't be surprised if they bring forth articles of impeachment because of that. We'll have to wait and see.

I also agree that there are two types of people right now. People who have made up their mind about him being guilty simply because they dislike him; and people who think he is the second coming of Christ. I don't think he's either.

I don't have love or hate for him. I'm judging him based on his actions as President. To me, he hasn't done a great job (I still think he's better than Hillary). The trade deals and the isolationist policies he's pushing are going to do our country far more harm than good. I also think his travel bans are silly as well.

Nuance.

One other thing. If there is ever factual evidence of his committing a crime I will be the first in line to watch him burn. The problem is, right now, all we have is supposition disguised as fact. We have an almost 4 year old investigation that hasn't shown anything other than... what? Tax fraud? That's not collusion. Mueller doesn't even get that this entire fiasco is just making him look ineffectual.

Oh, and I'm all for the continued investigation. Keep it going for his entire presidency. If they're able to find anything then he should be punished. I just don't think they will ever find anything. They haven't yet and it's been years.

People love to claim Trump is an idiot. I tend to agree. An idiot can't outsmart the FBI. I just don't see how that's possible.

[IndigoErth]

The problem is there are actual things he's done that they can go after him for. But they focus on his taxes (a rich guy cheating his taxes? Shock) and then they're trying to go after him for this nonsense Russian collusion. They can't even explain how that's illegal. So what if he colluded with Russia to besmirch Hillary Clinton. It's not like the United States has never colluded with a foreign power to influence their elections. Hell, Obozzo made a commercial promoting Macron. That's collusion.
Still doesn't make it okay. Agree with Voltron about living in separate realities, because if a Dem president was found to have done it for their own advantage and won, all the self proclaimed uber-patriotic types would be screaming about it, and rightly so. To defend or shrug off Russia or any foreign entity for screwing with our elections (whether it truly happened or not aside), or any candidate doing it for their own advantage, is incredibly unpatriotic. Sickeningly so. (And shrugging off cheating on taxes is little better.)

[Autbot_Benz]

Maybe if the cure to cancer is eating a obscene amount of junk food :lol:

anyway, no one learned from the last political thread?

If Mueller doesn't get him a Heart Attack from the Copious amounts of Mcdonalds and Wendy's will

[BartAllen]

If Mueller doesn't get him a Heart Attack from the Copious amounts of Mcdonalds and Wendy's will

I have a suspicion that there will never been any real findings from the Mueller investigation. And as soon as Trump is out of office, the Mueller investigation will quietly be swept under the rug.

It's much like the idiotic Carl Rove investigation. Nothing came from that either once Clinton was out of office. That investigation was a means to paint Clinton (and democrats) in a bad light, and helped put Bush in office. It's theatrics.

Still doesn't make it okay. Agree with Voltron about living in separate realities, because if a Dem president was found to have done it for their own advantage and won, all the self proclaimed uber-patriotic types would be screaming about it, and rightly so. To defend or shrug off Russia or any foreign entity for screwing with our elections (whether it truly happened or not aside), or any candidate doing it for their own advantage, is incredibly unpatriotic. Sickeningly so. (And shrugging off cheating on taxes is little better.)

I should have been more clear. I don't mean cheat in the sense that he committed tax fraud. I mean he used the available tax codes to probably pay very little taxes. ALL rich people do this.

I shrug off the 'meddling' because buying ads on social media isn't really meddling (despite what the msm will have you believe). The CEO of google stated that Russia only spent 4700 dollars on Google ads. That's nothing. They probably spent about the same on Facebook and twitter.

The selective outrage is odd. We meddle with EVERY OTHER NATION on this planet. The things we've done in the middle east is disgusting. It's okay for us to meddle? Every country attempts to do this with every other country. Shrugging off this stuff is easy because buying ads on social media isn't this grand conspiracy. It's just another country buying ads on social media. Did you know that some of those ads also put Donald Trump down? It was not nearly this HUGE conspiracy that some of our congress people are trying to make it out to be.

Finally, there is no proof of collusion. No matter what anyone here or anywhere says. There is no proof. People like to claim Manafort's work for the Ukraine is somehow meddling. No. What he did was commit tax evasion. That's the issue. The worst part is other politicians have done similar stuff and they've just had to pay a fine. The way they're going after Manafort is odd.

The second there is credible, verifiable evidence of 'collusion' (again, what does that mean - how is it illegal?) then my attitude will change.

I won't even go into how corporations meddle in our elections. They do. Where is the outrage there? We're mad at a paper tiger like Russia, but we're not mad at Citigroup? Again, the selective outrage is odd.

For all the alleged evidence claiming Russia was colluding with Trump there is far, FAR more that never gets reported that they weren't.
https://mobile.reuters.com/video/2018/12/11/google-ceo-on-russian-ads-no-political-b?videoId=490989926&videoChannel=118261

It's right there. 4700 dollars.

Oh, and did you know that the CIA can manipulate their own hacking and make it look like it was someone else that did it? Have you ever heard of Vault7? This isn't as cut and dry as the MSM wants to make it out to be.

I don't want to think that this entire investigation has been a creation of the DNC with the support of the intelligence committee, but I think it could POTENTIALLY.

So yea, I can shrug a lot of this stuff off. I can because there is literally nothing there yet. The second we have some true evidence my mind will change. I doubt we will ever see anything, though.

Like I wrote in my earlier post. There might have been some money laundering going on. I wouldn't doubt that. But collusion? No. I don't think there will ever be evidence of that.

Hey, and seriously, Your response was okay, but I kind of answered all the problems you had with my thoughts in the previous post.

Uranium one took 3 years to investigate. It was then dismissed.
The Trump Russian collusion has been going on for 4 and all they've been able to show for it is some tax fraud and some tax fraud.

[Voltron]

There's already been several convictions in the investigation. Saying there's no proof is like insisting the Emperor's new clothes look fabulous. How many people have to plead guilty to meeting with Russian agents before you change your mind?

Also, collusion, by definition, is illegal. It's conspiracy. It's like calling someone an unmarried bachelor. It's a bit redundant. Insisting something that's definition contains the word "illegal" is like saying you didn't murder your wife, you merely shoved a knife into her a few dozen times until she stopped breathing.

In addition, this isn't just about collusion, there's a slew of investigations happening, and not all of them are by the Democrats. Nor is the Mueller investigation, as the FBI doesn't have a political affiliation. Even if it did, the FBI tends to fault conservative. Robert Mueller III is a Republican. Saying this is a witch hunt is patently wrong.

On top of that, we're not just talking about Trump. He's just in caught up in a lot of these.

For example, other than Russia, we have to look at Saudi influence. There's also a lot of accusations AND convictions of perjury. There's accusations and convictions of misuse of campaign finances.

In short: the investigations into Trump and his associates are valid and turning up plenty of incriminating data.

The ONLY way this isn't true is if a cabal of world powers, including government officials and industry magnates, are colluding solely against Donald Trump in order to bring him down.

And if you want to ask why it's ok that other people have done this and gotten away with it, the answer is simple: It's not ok. It never was, and it isn't now.

[BartAllen]

There's already been several convictions in the investigation. Saying there's no proof is like insisting the Emperor's new clothes look fabulous. How many people have to plead guilty to meeting with Russian agents before you change your mind?

Also, collusion, by definition, is illegal. It's conspiracy. It's like calling someone an unmarried bachelor. It's a bit redundant. Insisting something that's definition contains the word "illegal" is like saying you didn't murder your wife, you merely shoved a knife into her a few dozen times until she stopped breathing.

In addition, this isn't just about collusion, there's a slew of investigations happening, and not all of them are by the Democrats. Nor is the Mueller investigation, as the FBI doesn't have a political affiliation. Even if it did, the FBI tends to fault conservative. Robert Mueller III is a Republican. Saying this is a witch hunt is patently wrong.

On top of that, we're not just talking about Trump. He's just in caught up in a lot of these.

For example, other than Russia, we have to look at Saudi influence. There's also a lot of accusations AND convictions of perjury. There's accusations and convictions of misuse of campaign finances.

In short: the investigations into Trump and his associates are valid and turning up plenty of incriminating data.

The ONLY way this isn't true is if a cabal of world powers, including government officials and industry magnates, are colluding solely against Donald Trump in order to bring him down.

And if you want to ask why it's ok that other people have done this and gotten away with it, the answer is simple: It's not ok. It never was, and it isn't now.
Again. Manafort was never charged with any type of collusion. They got him for not disclosing his earned income. Tax evasion. It wasn't that he was working in the Ukraine that got him in a hot mess it's that he didn't disclose income. That's not collusion. No matter how you slice it. Cohen had similar issues with his taxes, and I think (I might be wrong) something to do with campaign contributions.

Why wouldn't a worldwide cabal of oligarchs combine their powers to take down a president that is harming them with bad protectionist policies and tariffs that also harm them? It makes a lot of sense.

Mueller will never charge Trump with collusion. There is no evidence of it. Even the NYTs has written as much.

And if collusion is illegal than a lot of people that are currently in power would have to be brought down.

Mueller is an establishment republican and that's a completely different animal than Trump.

Also. I know you don't like me to bring in previous presidents as an example, but Obama alsi misused campaign finances. He was fined and the matter was dismissed. Again. Hillary also did some shady stuff with her finances during her bid for the presidency.

So in a sense you're right. People around Trump have done bad things that have gotten them (rightfully) in trouble. That still doesn't mean that Trump has colluded with the Russians, or that he is a Russian agent. That said, if there is strong evidence showing that he was into the.. hinky stuff, then I will be the first to admit I am wrong. I just don't think there will ever been evidence of collusion.

Here's a pretty good article from Politico about the entire situation: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/19/mueller-investigation-findings-914754

[Andrew NDB]

This isn't exactly a free exchange of ideas. It's more just a round table of "cucking libtards".

As much as Trump could cure cancer and still be considered a villain by some, he could literally CAUSE cancer and still be adored by others.

It's weird. I feel like we live in different dimensions. We're convinced of two completely separate realities. The only similarities being that Donald Trump is the POTUS.

Weird.

Trump Derangement Syndrome™ (TDS).

[BartAllen]

Here's a good link talking about the lack of true evidence when it comes to the Trump investigation.

https://youtu.be/vLkIlZizLdc

This is from the Jimmy Dore show. Jimmy is a social progressive that hates Trump. Even he says that there is no collusion and all the charges being brought against people around Trump haven't really had anything to do with collusion so much as it has been people not disclosing their earned income to the fed.


And I hate to say it, but if you want to thank anyone for Trump... well, You might want to send Hillary Clinton a thank you note:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/11/hillary-clinton-2016-donald-trump-214428

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/08/bill-clinton-called-donald-trump-before-presidential-run-2016

Hillary knew she wasn't a well liked candidate. She propped Trump up thinking he was the only person she could win against.

And there is no line between establishment Republicans and Democrats, they're both stooges for corporations. I may not be a big fan of Ocasio-Cortez, but she made some interesting observations during her orientation to congress:
https://truthout.org/articles/newly-elected-members-of-congress-expose-their-corporate-orientation/

[IndigoErth]

Eh... the problem there is he's not actually involved in the investigations, is he... Thus he probably has access to no more info on it than anyone else out here outside of the investigations or our government, neither commentator, news anchor, or viewer alike.

It's a little presumptuous for a political commentator on any side of the matter to assume so much when we have been told so little.

As far as Hillary goes... Her decisions were her own, if she hurt her own campaign in some ways, that's on her. I don't dislike her, but can't say I've ever been much more than indifferent. I respect that she's a tough lady, but other than that... meh. Voting is too often now between a rock and a hard place. Or a head full of rocks and a stupid place.


Trump Derangement Syndrome™ (TDS).
Trump Cult Syndrome™ (TCS)

[BartAllen]

Eh... the problem there is he's not actually involved in the investigations, is he... Thus he probably has access to no more info on it than anyone else out here outside of the investigations or our government, neither commentator, news anchor, or viewer alike.

It's a little presumptuous for a political commentator on any side of the matter to assume so much when we have been told so little.

That's fair. We may never know the entire situation when it comes to the investigation. But like I wrote in an earlier post, if there was collusion I think they would have come forward with something at this point.

Investigative reporters have their ear to the ground - they have an idea of what's going on. Plus, leaks aplenty would be happening right now if there was something there.

[Voltron]

Never is a long time. And while it may not come to pass, this isn't a small matter to be so dismissed.

It's not like the assistant manager at the local Office Max was implicated in this. It's an accusation leveled directly at the President of the United States of America.

And there are a lot of accusations.

As far as "hurting" foreign interests, Trump really isn't. The current political turmoil in the US is giving China a huge leg up.

While we're sitting here bickering over a noted con-man, China has been sending ambassadors all over the world. They're been setting up a lot of infrastructure in Africa, which offers a lot of untapped resources and potential.

Russia managed to get unwanted US forces out of Syria.

Trump's driven a wedge between the US and our NATO allies, which is another huge win for Putin.

The tariffs Trump's placed on "other countries" is a tax on our business, forcing some to shut down.

Farms are hurting so bad from the tariffs that the government now has to subsidize some to keep them afloat. Ford has also reported layoffs. Tariffs are hurting America, not China.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-farmers/single-word-keeps-some-farmers-from-getting-trumps-aid-to-offset-tariffs-idUSKCN1NW2N2

More coal mines are shutting down, which is really bad for rural America.
http://fortune.com/2018/10/09/ford-stock-today-layoffs-trump-trade-tariffs/

The Wall, if built, will require the Federal government to invoke eminent domain, forcing a lot of people to give up their land.

We still have a lot of vital political offices and appointments unfilled.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/daily-202/2018/01/12/daily-202-trump-has-no-nominees-for-245-important-jobs-including-an-ambassador-to-south-korea/5a57cce830fb0469e8840085/?utm_term=.c55493a96036

Trump can't even say Nazis are bad or condemn Turkish agents who assaulted American citizens.

Hell, the guy brags about buying fast food for the champion college football team.


Blaming this on Hillary is moot. No one likes her to begin with, even Democrats. She had what should have been the easiest election cycle in recent history and still managed to botch the damn thing.

Aside from that, there's little question as to whether she would've been a better president. Would she have been popular? No. Would she have given us more of the same? Yes. Is that good? No. But it's better than what we have now, which is a disgrace.

Obama misusing funds and being punished for it would be a good example, but that's an already completed event. On top of that, it was because of misfiled paperwork. The campaign was a few days late on reporting donations, and botched the dates on some paperwork. Obama wasn't funneling campaign money to himself.

If you want a better parallel, use Bill Clinton's perjury. That's what Trump's associates have been convicted of. The other investigations are, at the moment, just that. Trump is innocent until proven guilty. But he's a suspect with an unbelievable amount of power in the United States.

Remember when James Comey said he was reopening the Benghazi investigation, and people said Hillary can't be elected because she's now under investigation by the FBI? That was a good point. And here we are now with Trump.

Sure, we can point to every coup the USA was complicit in. The political meddling we've committed could fill books. The fact that it's illegal doesn't change. The fact that people in those countries are unhappy about it doesn't change. The people of those countries are always free to fight back. It's terrible, yes. I don't like it.

So when it happens to us, we're allowed to call it illegal. And we're allowed to fight against it.

We're never going to get a perfect system. Pointing out hypocrisy can be helpful in guiding future behavior, but using it to bar current counters to a serious issue isn't productive at all.

We, as a country, have to own this one. We made a terrible choice in voting this guy in. And while we can argue all day about who did what in the political field, the point we need to hammer home is: this is affecting us NOW.

[Andrew NDB]

Trump can't even say Nazis are bad or condemn Turkish agents who assaulted American citizens.

He can do that, but doing so is humoring nonsense. Like, if he does that and opens that can of crazy worms... he's going to have to keep on doing that. Sort of like the "Are you a Russian agent?" nonsense. "ZOMG! He didn't say no!!! Proof positive! Smoking gun/tightening noose! ZOMG! ZOMG!!!"

Hell, the guy brags about buying fast food for the champion college football team.

Who cares?

If you want a better parallel, use Bill Clinton's perjury. That's what Trump's associates have been convicted of.

None of Trump's associates, no. But we can play make believe if you want.

The other investigations are, at the moment, just that. Trump is innocent until proven guilty. But he's a suspect with an unbelievable amount of power in the United States.

No he's not. Where are the charges? Even one?

We, as a country, have to own this one. We made a terrible choice in voting this guy in. And while we can argue all day about who did what in the political field, the point we need to hammer home is: this is affecting us NOW.

Yep, it sure is. Lowest unemployment in history. Booming economy. Trade deals that are finally taking a look at what's fair. A hard stance on an out of control illegal immigration.

[Sumac]

We, as a country, have to own this one. We made a terrible choice in voting this guy in. And while we can argue all day about who did what in the political field, the point we need to hammer home is: this is affecting us NOW.
So, you can argue, but you will never admit arguments of the other side, if they don't align with yours.

Enjoy Trump 2020, I guess. People like you have deserved it.
And the best thing yet - it will be YOUR own doing.

[Voltron]

He can do that, but doing so is humoring nonsense. Like, if he does that and opens that can of crazy worms... he's going to have to keep on doing that. Sort of like the "Are you a Russian agent?" nonsense. "ZOMG! He didn't say no!!! Proof positive! Smoking gun/tightening noose! ZOMG! ZOMG!!!"



[quote]Who cares?
I do. I'd rather not have our country be a laughing stock. Have some class.



None of Trump's associates, no. But we can play make believe if you want.
Cohen. Flynn. Manafort.



No he's not. Where are the charges? Even one?
That's not how suspicion works. Being under investigation and charged are two different things.



Yep, it sure is. Lowest unemployment in history. Booming economy. Trade deals that are finally taking a look at what's fair. A hard stance on an out of control illegal immigration.
National debt of 2 trillion dollars. Record coal mines closed. Farmers on the dole. Army not getting paid. Lines out the door at airports. National Parks closed.

[Vegita-San]

So, you can argue, but you will never admit arguments of the other side, if they don't align with yours.

Enjoy Trump 2020, I guess. People like you have deserved it.
And the best thing yet - it will be YOUR own doing.

yep. these people don't realize their positive negativity is what gets the job done.

they create their own worst nightmare

[Voltron]

So, you can argue, but you will never admit arguments of the other side, if they don't align with yours.


Yeah. That's kind of how an argument works.

[Leo656]

I make a lot more money whenever the President is a Republican. The same was true of my father before me. Obviously things go deeper than that, but at the same time, I'll concede that the pattern is impossible to ignore, and therefore root for what works best for me. My job depends on people having lots of expendable income, after all.

I make zero pretense about the state of the larger "world". I'm gonna be dead in a few decades, after that the sun can implode for all I care. Long as I'm alright, we good. And I'm pretty alright right now.

Yes, that's selfish, self-absorbed, "mean" and a lot of other things. I care more about my bottom line than others' opinions of me, or what's happening "Over There", what can I say. Anything that isn't making my life more difficult in the Here and Now, is nothing more than entertainment, as far as I'm concerned. And again, I'm currently doing better than I have in ten years or so.

If my checks keep getting bigger, I may have to start arguing against term limits so this guy gets to stay President forever. :lol: Treats me fine. I'd never vote for him but the current climate is in my favor, and that's nothing I'm in any hurry to mess with.

[Voltron]

I make a lot more money whenever the President is a Republican. The same was true of my father before me. Obviously things go deeper than that, but at the same time, I'll concede that the pattern is impossible to ignore, and therefore root for what works best for me. My job depends on people having lots of expendable income, after all.

I make zero pretense about the state of the larger "world". I'm gonna be dead in a few decades, after that the sun can implode for all I care. Long as I'm alright, we good. And I'm pretty alright right now.

Yes, that's selfish, self-absorbed, "mean" and a lot of other things. I care more about my bottom line than others' opinions of me, or what's happening "Over There", what can I say. Anything that isn't making my life more difficult in the Here and Now, is nothing more than entertainment, as far as I'm concerned. And again, I'm currently doing better than I have in ten years or so.

If my checks keep getting bigger, I may have to start arguing against term limits so this guy gets to stay President forever. :lol: Treats me fine. I'd never vote for him but the current climate is in my favor, and that's nothing I'm in any hurry to mess with.

I can't imagine that lasting long. Any bump in finances people get from rolled back regulations tends to be very temporary. The financial crisis in 2008 is a good example of people not knowing how to handle their money properly, spending way more than they should've, and then regretting it.

Planning for the future is essential. Things may be good *now*, but sooner or later the economy is going to have a set back.

[Leo656]

True enough. Can't last, never does. But I'll certainly be looking on the bright side in the meantime.

Less heartburn that way.

[Andrew NDB]

More "bombshell" and "smoking gun":

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/politics/buzzfeed-trump-cohen-russia/index.html

[Vegita-San]

you honestly don't know WHAT to believe anymore. you see tweets ranging from the outrageous, to stuff like this..

>https://twitter.com/DanRather/status/1086270133503324161>

that sounds more like it could be the beginning of the end.

I mean...if you got rid of every politician who told a lie, Washington would be empty.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I mean...if you got rid of every politician who told a lie, Washington would be empty.

Be a damn good start to fixing $hit, no? :tlol:

[Vegita-San]

Be a damn good start to fixing $hit, no? :tlol:

yep. not saying it's a bad idea....but it would take an awful long time to replace and train new honest people :)

[BartAllen]

More "bombshell" and "smoking gun":

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/politics/buzzfeed-trump-cohen-russia/index.html

Mueller said the buzzfeed article is fake.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/politics/mueller-statement-buzzfeed/index.html

American media is broken.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

yep. not saying it's a bad idea....but it would take an awful long time to replace and train new honest people :)

I'm willing to be an only somewhat morally-bankrupt little duke or regent or bishop of my region.

Gimme a crown and a throne, I'll rule some $hit. :trazz:

[IndigoErth]

Please note that "fake" and "not accurate," as articles about it quote, are not the same and can be very different.

Maybe it's fake. Or maybe it isn't and the details are just not entirely spot on and he is trying to reign in something, or a portion of something, he doesn't really want in the news yet. Could really go either way.

[Andrew NDB]

Looks like Mueller is redirecting his investigation into potential Russian collusion :lol: away from Russia and... to the NRA.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/22/politics/mueller-nunberg-trump-campaign-nra/index.html

Dumb. Why wouldn't the NRA support Trump? They throw in behind all Republican presidents. They're in the business of protecting gun rights, aren't they?

[IndigoErth]

Maria Butina, a Russian national, pleaded guilty in DC federal court in December to engaging in a conspiracy against the US. As part of her plea, she acknowledged that she attempted to infiltrate GOP political circles and influence US relations with Russia, in part by building ties with prominent members of the NRA.


Torshin had hoped to use the NRA meeting to initiate back-channel lines of communication between then-candidate Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. While he failed to land a meeting with Trump, he and his associate, Butina, encountered Trump Jr. at a dinner with NRA officials.
Well, I can see why Mueller may be interested. After all, it's an investigation... leave no stone unturned. Even if some want to wave something off as nothing -- whether it actually seems like it or they just want it to be nothing -- ya still gotta check to see if there are any worms under that rock first, else you aren't doing your job.

Even if this Torshin guy never succeeded, it's still sketchy what his motives were. Nor is he necessarily alone in trying.

[Voltron]

Well, I can see why Mueller may be interested. After all, it's an investigation... leave no stone unturned. Even if some want to wave something off as nothing -- whether it actually seems like it or they just want it to be nothing -- ya still gotta check to see if there are any worms under that rock first, else you aren't doing your job.

Even if this Torshin guy never succeeded, it's still sketchy what his motives were. Nor is he necessarily alone in trying.

Yeah, but just because she's going to plead guilty to infiltrating the NRA doesn't mean the NRA should be investigated.

That's like if someone pleads guilty to lying to Congress and says they broke the law at the behest of their boss. It doesn't mean their boss should be investigated.

Also, I'm being sarcastic.

[Leo656]

Well, where would we be as a species without plausible deniability?

"Do the thing, but I don't wanna know the details." Nothing new. Be pretty weird if we suddenly started being upset about that kinda thing NOW, wouldn't it? Or if we actually tried getting along without it? Society would collapse.

We had thousands of years NOT to allow for a system that only rewards people who lie, cheat and steal, but we kinda dropped the ball. Seems a little late to be outraged at people behaving exactly the way they're expected to.

[IndigoErth]

Or... humans are continually trying to improve as a species (with plenty of growing pains in between) and slowly but surely realizing over time (despite some trying to keep a death grip on the past) that certain things are pretty crappy to be doing or allowing?

After all, even if we had "thousands of years" not to reward it, we're now finally starting to realize that we shouldn't. And a whole lot of other things that were really incredibly stupid for a long time.

It may be things that work for a minority of people, but it's not working for the rest of the people, and the rest are seemingly starting to realize that what works for that small amount eventually isn't really sustaining for the rest if its being done to their disadvantage.

[Leo656]

Fair enough.

Broad point, non-political example: I don't want my shoes to cost $500. I don't want to pay $30 for a hamburger. We rely on things we have, as a way of merely existing, because of literal slave labor. It happens "way over there," so collectively, we're all "okay" with it, because that allows us to have things we want for whatever WE feel is "fair", regardless of what they're actually worth.

We're NOT okay with it, of course, it's terrible. But that's how society survives. By looking the other way while saying, "Gosh, that ain't right." We're all equally complicit.

Plausible deniability.

[Voltron]

Fair enough.

Broad point, non-political example: I don't want my shoes to cost $500. I don't want to pay $30 for a hamburger. We rely on things we have, as a way of merely existing, because of literal slave labor. It happens "way over there," so collectively, we're all "okay" with it, because that allows us to have things we want for whatever WE feel is "fair", regardless of what they're actually worth.

We're NOT okay with it, of course, it's terrible. But that's how society survives. By looking the other way while saying, "Gosh, that ain't right." We're all equally complicit.

Plausible deniability.

That's a false equivalence.

Just because it happens and we can't stop it doesn't mean we can't try to stop other things that are bad.

[IndigoErth]

Unrelated, but can I just say that it has just oddly dawned on me how surreal is it that we live in an age where not only do we have a president that is a Twitter addict, but that I replied to him via a mildly Leo themed account... (Mildly being the use of image and @name is TMNT related, but the displayed name is not. Not my original primary account, but I rarely use Twitter and it's the one I'd left logged in a long time and never had much need to switch it.)

The president of the United States was basically just told by a Ninja Turtle that maybe he should care less the media's coverage of stock market earnings and more about the workers who aren't getting their paychecks. :tlol::lol: That's either kinda awesome or really kinda dorky. There is no help for me.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm really, really angry at Donald Trump!

Yeah, uh-huh.

[IndigoErth]

Taunt all you like sir, it isn't too happy of a day for those that support him... or did. Ah well.

[Leo656]

That's a false equivalence.

Just because it happens and we can't stop it doesn't mean we can't try to stop other things that are bad.

Well, I'm not sure if it's actually a "false equivalence", because I never said they were sins of equal measure.

Just making a very broad point that we only get to enjoy the lifestyle we have, because we've all decided that "ignoring that we're only 'happy' because other people suffer so we can reap the reward" is an acceptable state of being.

Sure, we can step in and try to stop bad things that we can control, but the simple fact is, we really COULD enact "real change" on a grander scale if we WANTED to, but... we don't. Because while it would be great for "everyone", it would really hurt us, specifically. Nascar fans don't want to be told how sh*tty and pointless their sport is while gas prices inflate; people who play golf don't wanna hear about how several states' worth of land that could support low-income housing, or SOME form of shelter for our many homeless or struggling people, is essentially being "wasted" so rich white assholes can chase a tiny ball across many acres of open field.

It's not that they don't care about those problems, or the less fortunate. They do care. But only to the effect that "making things better" should have NO impact at all on the lifestyle they choose to live.

We all want the world to be a better place... I think. BUT, we're all equally guilty of the same thing: If "solutions" are a personal inconvenience to us, then suddenly they're not our problems anymore. We want those cheap sneakers, those fast food burgers, those fancy iPads, and if it means some 5-year old Chinese kid loses a thumb in the never-ending effort to keep those things "reasonably" priced for First-Worlders like us, well... that's about the limit of our empathy.

That's what I mean by "plausible deniability". It's ultimately the only reason any of us can think of ourselves as "good people"; we pretend we're ignorant of how we benefit from other peoples' suffering and mistreatment, and it comes with the bonus of allowing us to throw shade at people we don't like because they're REALLY bad people, on account of, like, saying mean things or whatever, or using their status to break the law when we ourselves benefit from those kinds of loopholes every day, we just don't generally go around boasting about it. But since "WE personally didn't do the Bad Thing", we're clean. No, not really, we just get to say we didn't SEE it happen, and would stop it if we could have, maybe. Plausible deniability isn't just a tool of the rich or the powerful; it's entirely how we, as a species, sleep at night.

I don't take great personal offense at the words and deeds of people like Trump, or anyone in a position of power, because when you step back and look at the Big Picture... there's no such thing as "good people", just people who virtue signal and those who admit that the game is rigged and are just trying to get by, niceties be damned. Nobody on this Earth is frankly in any position to play "Righteous Moral Crusader". Gandhi, maybe, but that's it.

[Andrew NDB]

So Trump is pulling us out of a nuclear arms treaty with Russia that's been in place since the Cold War, as a result of Russia not honoring it.

https://www.apnews.com/13bee012befd4f989ab9ae108d1ca729

I'm not hearing much from the left on this but I'm curious what the narrative on all of this will be. If Trump is supposed to be working for Russia, how does this compute? If they say "Trump is being stupid again!" (and you know they want to) then they have to admit the Russian collusion thing has always been FAKE.

I wonder if it will be something ridiculous like, "Trump made a DEAL with Putin to pull out of the arms treaty so that it LOOKS like he is tough on Russia, so that Mueller will leave him alone!"

[IndigoErth]

I'm sure you'll disagree 110%, but I wouldn't put it past him and would not surprise me one bit to be yet another redirection stunt which is far too much of his go-to when news of investigations are getting a bit heated... He doesn't get tough with Putin face to face, instead he just decides on something as simple as pulling out of an old treaty that would simply allow for talks with allies over it and not necessarily something that would actually go anywhere. It's a safe move to try to distance himself if that were in fact the case...

[Andrew NDB]

I'm sure you'll disagree 110%, but I wouldn't put it past him and would not surprise me one bit to be yet another redirection stunt which is far too much of his go-to when news of investigations are getting a bit heated... He doesn't get tough with Putin face to face, instead he just decides on something as simple as pulling out of an old treaty that would simply allow for talks with allies over it and not necessarily something that would actually go anywhere. It's a safe move to try to distance himself if that were in fact the case...

So to be clear, you simultaneously think Trump is working for Russia, yes?

I'm seeing this popping up on Facebook... but it's very strange. Maybe it's because Rachel Maddow or whoever hasn't come on yet to tell people what to think, but I'm seeing memes about Russia nuking us now by the same people posting and posting and posting previously about Trump colluding with Russia. So basically Trump is nuking himself? I don't know how this can even resemble rational thought.

[IndigoErth]

No, I don't believe he's "working for Russia."

I think Trump is working for Trump, and whatever he thinks will befit himself personally and profit for him now and especially after his presidency. Exactly why he won't be tough with Putin eye to eye. Might ruin it for the future. But pulling out of something that doesn't really have to turn into anything... well that's safe and easy.

[Sumac]

So Trump is pulling us out of a nuclear arms treaty with Russia that's been in place since the Cold War, as a result of Russia not honoring it.

https://www.apnews.com/13bee012befd4f989ab9ae108d1ca729

I'm not hearing much from the left on this but I'm curious what the narrative on all of this will be. If Trump is supposed to be working for Russia, how does this compute? If they say "Trump is being stupid again!" (and you know they want to) then they have to admit the Russian collusion thing has always been FAKE.

I wonder if it will be something ridiculous like, "Trump made a DEAL with Putin to pull out of the arms treaty so that it LOOKS like he is tough on Russia, so that Mueller will leave him alone!"
This treaty apparently wasn't honored by Russia (no surprise, duh!!), so I am not surprised Trump did something like that. It's basically safe way to spit into Russia's face without actually doing anything.

Two consequences of it:
- bad: it will lead to destabilization of the situation in the world (more than it is already);
- good: Russia will get into another arm race and will kill its economy yet again, following with collapse of the state and Putin's regime;

[Leo656]

Maybe it's because Rachel Maddow or whoever hasn't come on yet to tell people what to think

:lol: Preach, brutha.

That chick has the ol' "George Clooney Head Bobble/Condescending Smirk" thing down to a science. :lol:

Hers has about 10% more "oomph" on account of about 2 feet of her body is that ridiculous-looking neck of hers.

Looks like a giraffe f*cked a swan and then sent the baby off to UMass. :lol:

[ranger_scout]

I think it's time to move on.

Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-has-uncovered-no-direct-evidence-conspiracy-between-trump-campaign-n970536)

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I think it's time to move on.

Senate has uncovered no direct evidence of conspiracy between Trump campaign and Russia (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-has-uncovered-no-direct-evidence-conspiracy-between-trump-campaign-n970536)

Don't celebrate too soon, for the REAL end of Trump is on its way!

Any time now!

[Andrew NDB]

:lol: Preach, brutha.

That chick has the ol' "George Clooney Head Bobble/Condescending Smirk" thing down to a science. :lol:

Hers has about 10% more "oomph" on account of about 2 feet of her body is that ridiculous-looking neck of hers.

Looks like a giraffe f*cked a swan and then sent the baby off to UMass. :lol:

I would never stoop to making insults about someone's personal appearance.

That said, you're not wrong. :)

[Voltron]

I'm waiting for the collective aneurysm the GOP is going to have the next time Dems are in power and ANYTHING displeases them.

I mean, currently we're riding high on some serious A+ government.

Hillary is in jail.
The wall is built (and it's beautiful).
ISIS is defeated.
Everyone is rich.
Obamacare is gone and replaced with something MUCH better.
North Korea gave up its nuclear program.
Coal mines are opening at record numbers.
Farmers are posting insane profits.

Hell, even the president of Puerto Rico is begging to be part of the United Shtaysh now.

The question is: with Trump being hands down the best president we've ever had by literally every metric, how will he top himself in his next two terms?

[Sumac]

I'm waiting for the collective aneurysm the GOP is going to have the next time Dems are in power and ANYTHING displeases them.

I mean, currently we're riding high on some serious A+ government.

Hillary is in jail.
The wall is built (and it's beautiful).
ISIS is defeated.
Everyone is rich.
Obamacare is gone and replaced with something MUCH better.
North Korea gave up its nuclear program.
Coal mines are opening at record numbers.
Farmers are posting insane profits.

Hell, even the president of Puerto Rico is begging to be part of the United Shtaysh now.

The question is: with Trump being hands down the best president we've ever had by literally every metric, how will he top himself in his next two terms?
Yes, yes, because, it's always perfect during Dems leadership and their promises are always have been fullflled.

Though, given that new Dems seemingly going even more "lefter", they might be renamed into "Communist party of America". Guess, it's time to go red and than dead for the US?

[Voltron]

Sorry about the edit thing. I hit the wrong button.

Anyway, my point is that almost none of Trump's promises have been kept. There was a tax cut, he pulled out of the Iran Deal, and he pulled out of the TPP.

To be fair, I totally support that last move. Everything I hear about that thing sounds nasty, and I'm glad we bailed, even if it did cost us on the economic scene.

Also, there's more than two options when it comes to economic systems. Pure capitalism would be just as bad as pure socialism, which is why no one implements either. Social programs are quite popular in the US, as is often pointed out.

Police, fire, and the military are all social programs.

Local parks, libraries, and schools are, too.

Our roads are all public (socially) funded.

To lose our collective minds over the implementation of another social program is a bit much. I think it would be nice for the government to spend money on us citizens than, say, funding guerrillas in some jungle to better serve corporate interests.

[Mayhem]

And... tell me something I didn't already know...!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/michael-cohen-to-testify-that-trump-knew-of-wikileaks-plot/ar-BBU8vVF?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=iehp

[Andrew NDB]

I can't wait until absolutely nothing comes of Cohen's testimony.

[Voltron]

Nothing? Cohen threw Trump right under the bus. Merciful crap, THAT'S going to take some serious spin from the GOP.

At the very least, Cohen does have Trump on charity fraud.

But that's not the lot of it. It's seemingly like the biggest take away from this is what a loser Trump is.

He's threatened lawsuits against every single one of his past schools should the release his grades.

I'm not sure what my favorite is about this, but I do like this one:

Trump was insecure about his portrait going up at an auction. In order to seem prestigious, a straw bidder was found to deliberately bid the highest on that particularly painting. Later, Trump's charity paid the bidder back.


President Eric Cartman actually bought his own painting at the highest price he could so everyone would think he's keeeewl. :lol:

Also, that's financial fraud with a paper trail. So, that's a felony.

[Andrew NDB]

He's threatened lawsuits against every single one of his past schools should the release his grades.

So what? Anyone has the right to threaten to sue anyone, anytime.

President Eric Cartman actually bought his own painting at the highest price he could so everyone would think he's keeeewl. :lol:

Also, that's financial fraud with a paper trail. So, that's a felony.

But the charity still got their money, didn't they? Even if that's true.

[Voltron]

1. It is, but for something so petty it's laughable. I mean, why the hell would I sue my elementary school over my spelling tests?

2. So what? So the Trump Organization asked for charitable donations and used them FOR THEIR OWN PURPOSES. That's like finding out the St. Jude's Children's Hospital is using your donations to buy murals of their board of directors in public, then acting totally surprised that anyone would be so appreciative of them.

Also, that's a felony. If you're asking for charitable donations to hand out grants to OTHER CHARITIES, that charity shouldn't be you. Especially if you claim to be one of the richest people on the planet.

3. Why are you supporting this loser? He's a racist, a liar, and a felon. It's now sitting their in open court. Read the damn testimony. Cohen brought paper into this.

4. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?

[Andrew NDB]

lol, how is he a racist?

[Voltron]

How is he not? :lol:

At what point do I have to stop doing homework for you guys?

[Leo656]

Well, what's the degree? Are we talking, "racist" as in the way everybody is a little bit? Like, the "I cross the street if I'm out by myself after midnight and someone I don't know is walking towards me" kind of "racist"? Or full-blown cross-burning racist?

Because I'd never, ever associate with the latter, but I've come to realize that the only way to avoid the former is just never leave your house or talk to other people, period.

My guess on Trump is, he's probably said the N-word in anger but never attended a Klan meeting. That would put him on par with the average public schoolteacher. Personal mileage would determine how "acceptable" that is.

I think he's definitely racially biased, but probably doesn't full-blown hate minorities. If that makes any sense.

[Andrew NDB]

Mostly it's that the left really, really wants to push Trump as a racist. You know, just keep saying it over and over again until people don't question it anymore, or at least avoid the debate. And one day... poof, they've willed it into being and he's a racist. That's the hope, anyway.

Because they know what the next move is. If they've successfully made him into a racist, guess what they can do to any of his supporters? Anything they want, because now surely they must be racists, too.

[Voltron]

Well, what's the degree? Are we talking, "racist" as in the way everybody is a little bit? Like, the "I cross the street if I'm out by myself after midnight and someone I don't know is walking towards me" kind of "racist"? Or full-blown cross-burning racist?

There's a significant difference between cautiously prejudiced and racist. Crossing the street because you perceive a threat can be considered offensive, but at the end of the day you can't be faulted for acting out of self-preservation.

Because I'd never, ever associate with the latter, but I've come to realize that the only way to avoid the former is just never leave your house or talk to other people, period.

I mean this one. He's the type of racist who judges people based on their skin color, place of origin, and/or heritage. He's made it known how he feels about "**** hole" countries, and has even tried to ban an entire group of people from entering the country based on religious affiliation.

My guess on Trump is, he's probably said the N-word in anger but never attended a Klan meeting. That would put him on par with the average public schoolteacher. Personal mileage would determine how "acceptable" that is.

That's because there's none at his golf clubs.

I think he's definitely racially biased, but probably doesn't full-blown hate minorities. If that makes any sense.

I wouldn't be so sure. He's consistently shown contempt for people he feels are beneath him. While "hate" in the common sense of the word isn't appropriate, I would argue he views most people the same way most people view animals at the zoo. "Low IQ" people who are clearly not worth as much as he is.

and one day... proof

That's one hell of a Freudian slip. Haha

Because they know what the next move is. If they've successfully made him into a racist, guess what they can do to any of his supporters? Anything they want, because now surely they must be racists, too.

Like separate them from their children and put them in cages? Oh, wait. . .

And let's look at this for what it is: if the guy is racist, you're supporting a racist. Which means literally every defense you make of the man requires you to say "I'm not a racist, but I think this particular racist has some good ideas."

The same way you now have to defend your position from the point of
"I'm not a felon, but. . ."
"I'm not a thief, but. . . "
"I've never paid porn stars hush money, but. . ."

So on and so forth. The "Democrats", the "Left", and what ever other boogeyman you refer to doesn't need Trump to be a racist. It's just another aspect of his terrible character that's pertinent in the discussion.

[Andrew NDB]

More investigations after the Mueller nothing report:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/04/politics/trump-mueller-report-nadler-investigation-impeachment/index.html

[Voltron]

It's a pity Trump can't keep his crimes a bigger secret. Maybe this wouldn't happen if he wasn't both surrounded by and a total moron himself.

To be clear: after his personal attorney, a man who publicly stated that he'd take a bullet for Donald Trump, implicated the POTUS in several crimes with hard evidence to back it up, some people don't want to investigate that.

In short: some people are ok with the President being a criminal. :roll:

Also, if you keep misrepresenting the news, I'm going to have to take action, Andrew. Running from the truth doesn't help our country.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/05/politics/democratic-investigations-trump-entire-world/index.html

Democrats now investigating every corner of Trump's life. This presidency is OVER!

[Voltron]

This presidency never began. The man's a do-nothing charlatan who has no idea what he's doing. He just rambles to his cult and they eat it up.

The worst part is that when it becomes apparent how much we've lost by indulging this man-child of a criminal and his thugs, they'll all blame everyone but themselves for what's happened.

It's already been projected that current financial practices are going to leave us in a recession by 2021.

And they'll come out and say

but the stock market just hit 20,000! Unemployment is at an all time low! Voltron's deranged! He's a dumbocrat libtard!

To which I respond:

1. The DOW hit 20,000 because it only incorporates the best performing companies. If the company isn't performing well, it's dropped from the index. Thus, the DOW is always going to trend up, regardless.

2. Unemployment is low, but wages are stagnant and people are still hurting financially. If you aren't part of the upper crust, which I'm betting all of us are not, then you aren't doing anywhere NEAR as good as your CEO.

3. Calling other people crazy for pointing out flaws in your plan and posting articles and sources to do so is not proper discourse. You're denying the reality of the situation, and it's going to lead to disaster.

4. The GOP can always be counted on to project their own issues onto everyone else but themselves.

Currently, the GOP has literally committed election fraud. They've literally tried to rig an election so they would win. There's evidence for this. Should it go to court, there is a better than good chance that they'll be found guilty of it.

So what does the party of personal responsibility do? Mitch McConnell blames the Democrats for not making a law to stop the GOP from doing this. That's right. It's someone else's fault that the GOP broke the law.

And bear in mind: this was a huge talking point of the GOP during the election. Trump went on and on about compromised elections, and how we all need to be ready to challenge the results should he lose.

. . . and now it's found out that the GOP actually did this, and there's not a single one of them demanding justice.

Like the Democrats would! Voltron, you're deranged!

We can agree that the Democrats aren't 100% innocent in their long and storied history. Sure. But they're a hell of a lot better at demanding their colleagues stand down after similar scandals.

For example, Al Franken was forced to step down after some photos surfaced of him making lewd jokes.

Roy Moore has multiple child molestation charges, and the GOP championed him.

Rod Blagojevich misuses his political power. He's impeached.

Trump commits campaign finance violations. Nothing to see here!

Attends Epsteins child rape parties. No big deal!

Hangs out with Russian agents in the Oval Office without American staff present. Eh, no biggie.

Obama is black. HE'S FROM KENYA!

In the end, it's clear who the "deranged" party is. It's the one who forgives Trump for any and all transgressions, but demands continuing investigations into Hillary Clinton's involvement in Benghazi.

By they way, Trump sent American troops on a suicide a week into his presidency despite being warned not to do it by military intelligence. Is that bad?

We'll never find out, because if confronted by any of their shenanigans, they inevitably say:

Oh, yeah? Well, what about. . .?

[Metalwolf]

We can agree that the Democrats aren't 100% innocent in their long and storied history. Sure. But they're a hell of a lot better at demanding their colleagues stand down after similar scandals.

Definitely not 100% innocent. Oh most definitely.

Did you know that Democrats started the KKK way back when? And used race politics to divide poor people (black and white) to prevent them from forming their own power block and challenging the social elites?

They used to paint black people as helpless and who needed white people to care for them and provide for them?

And they still doing it today, only they tell black folks that white people are automatically racist, and that only the Democratic Party can make sure they watch out for their rights, because they are the perennial victims?

No offense, but even I as a Democrat know my party isn't all lemonade and tea roses. They do some good stuff sure (like environmentalism) but even that is tempered by being in thrall to their emerging corporate overloards, who only let them go only as far until it threatens their money and power, and then they apply the leash.

So when people bash the other party and pretend that their own party does not have flaws as big as 'those people,' I start wondering if they really know their own party at all, and not how flawed it currently still is in many ways.

[Redeemer]

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/05/politics/democratic-investigations-trump-entire-world/index.html

Democrats now investigating every corner of Trump's life. This presidency is OVER!

Not even close :lol:

Bill Clinton sexually assaulted an intern then lied under oath and they still didn't throw his butt out of office.

The biggest problem is that you need 2/3 senate vote to impeach a sitting president. It why Johnson and Clinton were not thrown out. Even though the house found them both guilty the senate exonerated them.

Basically I can't see Republicans crossing over. It would take a real smoking gun to get them to vote. I am talking about either voice or video recordings of him doing something wrong.

[Candy Kappa]

Did you know that Democrats started the KKK way back when?

And years after that, the Democrats and Repuplicans switched platforms. As an American I'd assume you knew that.

[Voltron]

Definitely not 100% innocent. Oh most definitely.

Did you know that Democrats started the KKK way back when? And used race politics to divide poor people (black and white) to prevent them from forming their own power block and challenging the social elites?

Candy Kappa handled this one.

If you're unaware of the switch in political stances, then you should take a look at the current political trends in the country.

They used to paint black people as helpless and who needed white people to care for them and provide for them?

. . . Do they? Helpless? Again, I'll need you to point to some specific examples of your party being virulently racist.

And they still doing it today, only they tell black folks that white people are automatically racist, and that only the Democratic Party can make sure they watch out for their rights, because they are the perennial victims?

In what way? Where have they said that white people are automatically racist? Because I accused Trump of being a racist and people insisted I was being outlandish in my claims.

Again, why would you ally yourself with such insidious racists?

No offense, but even I as a Democrat know my party isn't all lemonade and tea roses. They do some good stuff sure (like environmentalism) but even that is tempered by being in thrall to their emerging corporate overloards, who only let them go only as far until it threatens their money and power, and then they apply the leash.
1. I'm not a Democrat.

2. I've provided instances where the "leash was applied", even at the immediate expense of Democratic power.

So when people bash the other party and pretend that their own party does not have flaws as big as 'those people,' I start wondering if they really know their own party at all, and not how flawed it currently still is in many ways.

Then why are you still a Democrat?

Unless, of course, you're either a DINO or not a democrat at all and just use it as a clever gimmick to gain footing in an argument where there's no ground for the GOP to stand on.

Which brings me to the next point:

Trump is accused of the same thing, and I think you made a really good point about that.

*crickets*

Oops! I must've misread where you weighed both sides. How unlike me.

Also, I noticed you focused on the Democrats when

1. The topic is Trump and his apparent guilt

and

2. I preemptively called you guys out on Whataboutism. But here we are, back to the same old tricks the Right has to fall on.

Denial and Misdirection.

To quote a certain orange dumbass: "SAD!"

Edit:

Apologies to Redeemer. Totally misread his argument. He made an excellent point. That was an excellent example of Democrats not following through on the moral high ground thing.

[Andrew NDB]

The report is completed and turned in:

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/mueller-submits-russia-report/index.html