derangment syndrome

[Vegita-San]

seems more like a title andrew would come up with, but it fits the situation.
wasn't sure where else to put this..

have you come across this in your social media lately?

most of the times, it's associated with SJW natured topics. but not all the times. and it effects the most random people. folks who don't show any signs of going off the walls, suddenly just go social media crazy and rant about the most insane things.

two instances happened recently that I Still can't get over. since both where nice guys at one point.

- local producer I know. we tell each other how we truly feel about things related to the job, and joke about things. one day, I made a joke, and he got derangment syndrome and went totally off the wall. of course, I later found out two things. 1- he had spend the night deleting lots of facebook hatemail off the stations page due to a unpopular decision recently announced. and 2- he recently tried to leave the job and couldn't, because a suitable replacement couldn't be found..so he might have been feeling stress. but, the reaction to something innocent was totally unexpected, and hurt our otherwise friendly relationship...cause i just don't know which version of him i'll get... the one I liked, or the newer, stressed out version.

- another message board. I got tired of the mods editing out conversation on the she-ra netflix thread. someone would post something that constantly broke the rules, 15 posts of calm conversation followed, and those posts would get deleted, and the offending post still left up. I felt like this was going toward a SJW narrative, and I Said as much when I reported the post. one of the mods PMed me back, and said I was basically a homophobic ass. and that i better be careful not to go full right, because i could be banned.

All because I complained about posts that where calling this she-ra show the next gay icon and talking about all kinds of goofy stuff not related to the show, just to get click bait talks. funny thing is, some gay forum members agreed with me, but vanished quickly. just like some of the woman posters who are fans of the show, but no longer feel welcome there talking about it, just like i wasn't. guess they must fall into my boat too :/...

this guy had shown no signs of going into derangement syndrome before this, and it still catches me completely off guard when it happens.

have you ever had this happened to you? is it mostly online, or in real life as well?

[Andrew NDB]

"Trump Derangement Syndrome" is absolutely a thing. Take a cursory peek at just about any social media feed lately. Talk about circle jerks of hatred and just putrid rage. There's no way it's healthy.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, Trump Cult Syndrome isn't healthy either.

[Vegita-San]

yep. they are both crazy. but now it seems to be going into things beyond politics as well...and it's just getting scary out there in social media world.

I used to think SM was a good thing. now, not so much.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, Trump Cult Syndrome isn't healthy either.

That's not a thing, and not remotely 1:1. TDS (https://www.wnd.com/2018/09/psychiatrist-trump-derangement-syndrome-is-real-and-serious/amp/) is a thing.

[IndigoErth]

"Fake news." It doesn't need an official name and a paper of utter hogwash written by a confirmation bias-driven quack psychologist in order for it to be an obvious and problematic behavior among quite a few Americans. The writer sounds like a deeply afflicted madman.

Honestly, I guess it's also a "derangement syndrome" that conservatives have against liberals too. A fearful response to "explain" liberals because conservatives, according to actual studies, are typically anxious and fearful people. (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/conservatives-into-liberals-yale-psychologist-simple-thought-experiment-turned-switch-politics-left-a8013576.html) Kind of explains the obsession over how liberals are supposedly "ruining the world."

[Prowler]

Unrelated, but why don't you start the first word of each sentence with a capital letter?

[Vegita-San]

Because I type so fast, if I don't notice it, I don't go back and fix it?

[Leo656]

What I've noticed the last couple years is, most people who support Trump or don't care either way have no problem going about their lives completely removed from politics in general.

People who hate Trump have seemingly made him the focal point of their very existence. He and his criminal gang of ne'er-do-wells are ALL they can seemingly talk or think about. All roads lead back to him in some way.

I'm actually surprised quite often when I discover someone is a Trump supporter because most of them are very casual about it, and they're usually not the ones to inject politics into the conversation, either. Whereas, if you hate Trump, everyone you know already knows, because it's all you've talked about for years.

Keep in mind, this pertains to Real Life and interactions with Real People, not social media Keyboard Crusaders. I'm also not factoring in those bizarre videos where someone goes on a racist rant and THEN outs themselves as a Trump supporter, because those people are clearly 1. Mentally ill, and 2. Taking the fastest route to free attention. Most of them probably didn't even vote, but they know that invoking He Who Shall Not Be Named in the middle of a racist meltdown that's already being recorded is a safe way to get your name in the headlines. But those aren't the people out walking around in real life. Most Trump fans I know in real life are chill as f*ck, and hardly the "racist Bible thumpers" they're supposed to be. Generally, they're just morally opposed to abortion and not a fan of high taxes. I've sincerely never spoken to a "stereotypical" Trump supporter. And I openly disagree with them about certain things when they come up, but it's never made them get mad at me. We just shrug it off and move on; nobody's mind was changed but we don't need to fight about it.

I definitely hear a lot of stuff from the other side that concerns me, though. "I hope someone kills that motherf*cker" is to be expected at least once per day. "Anyone who would vote for him should be strung up and set on fire" is another good one. I can't hang out with people who get that bent about political theater. Once you're openly (and loudly) calling for violence against the President, because "he's a Big Meanie", I feel like even if you're Right on Principle, you're wrong on Points.

True story: About a year ago, my wife's father had an alcoholic meltdown after months on end of the following daily routine: Drink cheap beer, sit on the couch watching hours of Rachel Maddow, and spend hours until dawn shouting at the TV. It slowly evolved from, "He's a liar!" to, "Lock him up!", to "Kill the motherf*cker! Sh*t, I'LL do it for free!" Eventually, the cops started getting called to the house about once a week; the second-to-last time, one of them pointed at the TV - still on MSNBC - and sternly advised, "Rich, THIS SH*T is your f*cking problem, okay? Next time, you're coming with us, and nobody wants that, so take my advice and watch something else."

Less than a week later, he goes from yelling at the TV to waving a knife around threatening me and my wife. Another 911 call. Cops bust in with guns drawn, find him STILL screaming about Trump, and he spent a week in jail. He was almost charged with Terroristic Threats, but "luckily" for him he was able to blame it all on the alcohol and got a deal. He's been better, but not by much.

These are the people I encounter. On the other hand, y'know what I and other people who lean a bit more conservative do when, say, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez gets caught in another lie, or makes another ridiculous and provably-false statement, which happens EVERY day? We laugh, call her a bug-eyed dumbass, and go on with our lives. She's not worth the heartburn, none of them are. But the perpetual state of victimhood that Trump haters have resigned themselves to, and the fanatical lengths to which they're willing to go in order to make their hatred perfectly clear - as if it wasn't already - is disturbing. I would say "deranged" is accurate. It's obsession. Nothing's that bad. Everything is Mostly Fine.

I don't think conservatives are more fearful of anything at all; most of them simply aren't going around acting like lunatics in public, and the ones who do are literally crazy people. Not "Trump Supporters" or "Conservatives"; they may be that, but not as MUCH as they are simply crazy. It's the people on the left who constantly swear they have no choice but to flee to another country to escape imaginary "oppression". And then they don't, because nobody in any other country would want to listen to the whining either.

Ranting that the President should be killed because a caravan of illegal immigrants isn't going to be given the free ride they asked for isn't normal. It's not how the "Good Guys" are supposed to act. And it's everywhere, and it's Real Life, not the internet. I do not and will never vote, but if I had to pick a side with a gun to my head, I'd take my chances laughing with the "sinners" on the Right, rather than perpetually crying with the self-appointed "saints" on the Left.

Again, possibility different where other people live. I'm in NJ with the rest of the winners and good-looking people, so I can only call what I see and deal with every day. "Trump Derangement Syndrome", I can testify to. And it's for basically nothing. Manufactured moral outrage. People who didn't get their way, banging on about how unfair it is. That, to me, illustrates "fear". Fear that they will never get ahead in life, or be truly happy, but don't want to accept that maybe they personally could have done some things differently along the way. It has to be that someone simply stacked the deck against them from the start, for being brown or gay or a woman or whatever. Laying blame while projecting and deflecting, as many people are presently guilty of, is "fear". Making factually correct statements that some people think are "mean" isn't fear. There's nothing to be afraid of when the facts support your position on the things that most people are so sensitive about right now.

I'unno. People need to f*cking relax, I'll tell you that for nothin'.

[Andrew NDB]

When I bring up politics, 9 out of 10 times it's... well, you know why I do it.

It's just pretty shocking to see formerly calm, collected and intelligent people, over the course of an election, decide to make it their crusade to just bring hate and anger about Trump everyday. Like at least once a day, all over the place.

Which isn't to say there isn't similar whackjobs on the right... it just isn't everywhere like it is with the people I'm talking about.

[Leo656]

I like how you are occasionally, essentially, a Cliff's Notes version of me. :lol:

But yeah, agreed.

[Roseangelo]

- local producer I know...

..cause i just don't know which version of him i'll get... the one I liked, or the newer, stressed out version.

Just curious if you actually work with or in the same field as this person, or are you just a fan who talks to him a lot while he's trying to work?

[Leo656]

That's a fair point. Variables are often the key to solving the equation.

[Voltron]

What I've noticed the last couple years is, most people who support Trump or don't care either way have no problem going about their lives completely removed from politics in general.

People who hate Trump have seemingly made him the focal point of their very existence. He and his criminal gang of ne'er-do-wells are ALL they can seemingly talk or think about. All roads lead back to him in some way.

I'm actually surprised quite often when I discover someone is a Trump supporter because most of them are very casual about it, and they're usually not the ones to inject politics into the conversation, either. Whereas, if you hate Trump, everyone you know already knows, because it's all you've talked about for years.

Keep in mind, this pertains to Real Life and interactions with Real People, not social media Keyboard Crusaders. I'm also not factoring in those bizarre videos where someone goes on a racist rant and THEN outs themselves as a Trump supporter, because those people are clearly 1. Mentally ill, and 2. Taking the fastest route to free attention. Most of them probably didn't even vote, but they know that invoking He Who Shall Not Be Named in the middle of a racist meltdown that's already being recorded is a safe way to get your name in the headlines. But those aren't the people out walking around in real life. Most Trump fans I know in real life are chill as f*ck, and hardly the "racist Bible thumpers" they're supposed to be. Generally, they're just morally opposed to abortion and not a fan of high taxes. I've sincerely never spoken to a "stereotypical" Trump supporter. And I openly disagree with them about certain things when they come up, but it's never made them get mad at me. We just shrug it off and move on; nobody's mind was changed but we don't need to fight about it.

I definitely hear a lot of stuff from the other side that concerns me, though. "I hope someone kills that motherf*cker" is to be expected at least once per day. "Anyone who would vote for him should be strung up and set on fire" is another good one. I can't hang out with people who get that bent about political theater. Once you're openly (and loudly) calling for violence against the President, because "he's a Big Meanie", I feel like even if you're Right on Principle, you're wrong on Points.

True story: About a year ago, my wife's father had an alcoholic meltdown after months on end of the following daily routine: Drink cheap beer, sit on the couch watching hours of Rachel Maddow, and spend hours until dawn shouting at the TV. It slowly evolved from, "He's a liar!" to, "Lock him up!", to "Kill the motherf*cker! Sh*t, I'LL do it for free!" Eventually, the cops started getting called to the house about once a week; the second-to-last time, one of them pointed at the TV - still on MSNBC - and sternly advised, "Rich, THIS SH*T is your f*cking problem, okay? Next time, you're coming with us, and nobody wants that, so take my advice and watch something else."

Less than a week later, he goes from yelling at the TV to waving a knife around threatening me and my wife. Another 911 call. Cops bust in with guns drawn, find him STILL screaming about Trump, and he spent a week in jail. He was almost charged with Terroristic Threats, but "luckily" for him he was able to blame it all on the alcohol and got a deal. He's been better, but not by much.

These are the people I encounter. On the other hand, y'know what I and other people who lean a bit more conservative do when, say, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez gets caught in another lie, or makes another ridiculous and provably-false statement, which happens EVERY day? We laugh, call her a bug-eyed dumbass, and go on with our lives. She's not worth the heartburn, none of them are. But the perpetual state of victimhood that Trump haters have resigned themselves to, and the fanatical lengths to which they're willing to go in order to make their hatred perfectly clear - as if it wasn't already - is disturbing. I would say "deranged" is accurate. It's obsession. Nothing's that bad. Everything is Mostly Fine.

I don't think conservatives are more fearful of anything at all; most of them simply aren't going around acting like lunatics in public, and the ones who do are literally crazy people. Not "Trump Supporters" or "Conservatives"; they may be that, but not as MUCH as they are simply crazy. It's the people on the left who constantly swear they have no choice but to flee to another country to escape imaginary "oppression". And then they don't, because nobody in any other country would want to listen to the whining either.

Ranting that the President should be killed because a caravan of illegal immigrants isn't going to be given the free ride they asked for isn't normal. It's not how the "Good Guys" are supposed to act. And it's everywhere, and it's Real Life, not the internet. I do not and will never vote, but if I had to pick a side with a gun to my head, I'd take my chances laughing with the "sinners" on the Right, rather than perpetually crying with the self-appointed "saints" on the Left.

Again, possibility different where other people live. I'm in NJ with the rest of the winners and good-looking people, so I can only call what I see and deal with every day. "Trump Derangement Syndrome", I can testify to. And it's for basically nothing. Manufactured moral outrage. People who didn't get their way, banging on about how unfair it is. That, to me, illustrates "fear". Fear that they will never get ahead in life, or be truly happy, but don't want to accept that maybe they personally could have done some things differently along the way. It has to be that someone simply stacked the deck against them from the start, for being brown or gay or a woman or whatever. Laying blame while projecting and deflecting, as many people are presently guilty of, is "fear". Making factually correct statements that some people think are "mean" isn't fear. There's nothing to be afraid of when the facts support your position on the things that most people are so sensitive about right now.

I'unno. People need to f*cking relax, I'll tell you that for nothin'.

Funny you should mention this, because I've found the same to be true with Trump supporters and GOPers.

I've seen them lose their minds over things. I've had family members talk about how they're ready to shoot Libs, how that "n" word President thinks he's so great, and how Hillary belongs in jail.

And they're the one's who bring it up. In our house, we have a pretty strict "no politics" policy in our house because a couple of our family members might go postal if someone mentions a politician they aren't really happy with at the moment.

And we're in the same area. . . so. . . I dunno. Maybe we're running with different groups? A lot of my family and neighbors are DIE HARD conservatives. And they're wonderful people unless they see Obama or Hillary. Then they just become different people.

That isn't to say my liberal friends aren't just as quick to rile up. I'm just surprised you're finding a lot of calm Trump supporters.

In short, there's two modes for Trump supporters:
1. Gloat
2. Rage

For liberals, there's two modes:
1. Rage
2. Bernie would've won

Though I do find liberals are more likely to talk about policy they don't like than the conservatives are.

__________________________________________________ _____

Also, I'd like to contest the "derangement" syndrome term. I don't think anyone here has a serious mental affliction due to the political theater. I think a lot of us just don't take the time to reflect on the consequences of our actions and words. And that we have a habit of getting swept up in drama that we have little to no skin in.

That's why I don't like to adopt any labels. The moment we do, we're now backing that entire group and everything they do/stand for. It makes the scope of debate way to broad to be productive.

For example, if I say I'm a liberal, then I'm on the line for *everything* that label stands for. The entire pantheon of liberal politics is now on my head, from social security to full blown pinko communism. So I try to put my support behind policies and individual political actions rather than the entire political movement that represents them.

[Vegita-San]

It's just pretty shocking to see formerly calm, collected and intelligent people, over the course of an election, decide to make it their crusade to just bring hate and anger about Trump everyday. Like at least once a day, all over the place.

Which isn't to say there isn't similar whackjobs on the right... it just isn't everywhere like it is with the people I'm talking about.

most of the time i see people doing it, it's in hollywood circles. I've had to stop talking to some artist personality, because they just went full on derangement syndrome and got impossible to talk too. All because I didn't like something he did.

but lately it's effecting everyone, and not just in political circles either. and that's the scary part.

[Candy Kappa]

I see it mostly in American focused places

[Vegita-San]

It's worldwide.

I made the mistake of saying 'this is america' in referencing supermans famous phrase of 'american way' being a problem. and someone from the UK lost their crap. all cause he wasn't posting from america.

[Andrew NDB]

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2018/08/the_seven_stages_of_trump_derangement_syndrome.htm l

wGZg6oBxeb8

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

We coulda avoided all this $hit if you people would've just voted for a write-in candidate.

Like me. I'd be fvcking awesome as a President.

Don't raise taxes, don't get "spinach dip" on the blue dress, free healthcare and college tuition for everyone. Oh, and invade a third-world country to liberate their oil--I mean, liberate their people.

What's not to love? Vote for me, fvckers.

#CylonsforPresident

[Leo656]

Well Voltron, that's easy enough to believe, and I did leave room for the possibility of geographical differences. I try only ever to call what I see personally. I factor in the data from places like "over there", but again, I can't trust or swear to it unconditionally unless it happens right in front of me.

Call it "Pro Wrestling Locker Room Syndrome". :) The first lesson given is, "Believe HALF of what you see and NONE of what you hear." It becomes impossible not to apply it to real-life situations, but it's actually a good rule to live by in general. Especially in the era of "Fake News".

That's why I take everything with a big bag of salt and can't get upset about any of it. Whatever happened almost certainly didn't happen exactly as it was reported, and all news is slanted one way or the other. You know the old saying; " There's three sides to everything: Your Side, My Side, and The Truth."

Your closing paragraph is more or less how I feel as well. I'm conservative about things like immigration and the economy, and liberal about things like abortion, but I'm not on either side hard enough to wear a sticker. Since my stance on those issues is never, ever going to change, I wouldn't be welcomed with open arms by either side.

I'm just kinda floating in the middle calling all the extremists a bunch'a twits. :lol: At least the water's nice and warm. :)

[Leo656]

We coulda avoided all this $hit if you people would've just voted for a write-in candidate.

Like me. I'd be fvcking awesome as a President.

Don't raise taxes, don't get "spinach dip" on the blue dress, free healthcare and college tuition for everyone. Oh, and invade a third-world country to liberate their oil--I mean, liberate their people.

What's not to love? Vote for me, fvckers.

#CylonsforPresident

Yeah, the f*cking hillbilly who doesn't even wear shoes and subsists on Star Trek reruns instead of food. THAT'S our guy.

I'd sooner vote for Solidus!

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Yeah, the f*cking hillbilly who doesn't even wear shoes and subsists on Star Trek reruns instead of food. THAT'S our guy.

I'd sooner vote for Solidus!

Hell yeah, man. How can you trust somebody who covers up their feet? Nudists are the only truly honest people. They've got nothing to hide.

And don't you badmouth Star Trek, boyo. I'll slap your ass in Gitmo for that.

[Voltron]

Please cover your feet, people. They're like deformed hands.

And socks in Birkenstocks don't count. If anything, that's worse.

[Leo656]

Any kind of sandal should be flat-out illegal.

People's feet disgust me like few other things. I can't handle it.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Please cover your feet, people. They're like deformed hands.

And socks in Birkenstocks don't count. If anything, that's worse.

Any kind of sandal should be flat-out illegal.

People's feet disgust me like few other things. I can't handle it.

Sounds like you people have the opposite of a foot fetish.

I believe it's called podophobia.

[Candy Kappa]

My deformed leg hands are on display everrry day, I wear sandals in blizzards, trudging in 4' snow.

fight me.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

My deformed leg hands are on display everrry day, I wear sandals in blizzards, trudging in 4' snow.

fight me.

https://i.imgur.com/I0hxJwS.gif

Or, y'know, the gender-appropriate pronoun of your choice.

[Voltron]

Sounds like you people have the opposite of a foot fetish.

I believe it's called podophobia.

I'm not afraid of feet. The ratio of sightly feet against hands-sewn-to-ankles is definitely in favor of the latter.

They're like butts. Some people have really nice butts. But most people's butts will make you puke if not covered by like, three to four layers of heavy clothing.

It's why I invented and wear an "ass smock".

[Prowler]

https://i.imgur.com/I0hxJwS.gif

Or, y'know, the gender-appropriate pronoun of your choice.

What is the source of that gif? What cartoon series? Just curious.

[Leo656]

I'm not afraid of feet. The ratio of sightly feet against hands-sewn-to-ankles is definitely in favor of the latter.

They're like butts. Some people have really nice butts. But most people's butts will make you puke if not covered by like, three to four layers of heavy clothing.

It's why I invented and wear an "ass smock".

Ahhhh, there's the Voltron I used to know. :lol:

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

What is the source of that gif? What cartoon series? Just curious.

Rick and Morty

I'm not afraid of feet. The ratio of sightly feet against hands-sewn-to-ankles is definitely in favor of the latter.

They're like butts. Some people have really nice butts. But most people's butts will make you puke if not covered by like, three to four layers of heavy clothing.

It's why I invented and wear an "ass smock".

Believe me, mano, you'd rather see my feet than my ass. :tlol:

[Voltron]

Rick and Morty



Believe me, mano, you'd rather see my feet than my ass. :tlol:

Yes, and if you saw either of mine, you'd die exactly like the bad guys at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[Refractive Reflections]

That's not a thing, and not remotely 1:1. TDS (https://www.wnd.com/2018/09/psychiatrist-trump-derangement-syndrome-is-real-and-serious/amp/) is a thing.

The thing is, the hysterical/delusional mainstream media fuels TDS and repeat the world-ending, bigot-at-every-corner narrative constantly. So most who have it, don't believe they do since they are in essence, psychologically depending on corporate-driven media to assure and establish whats considered "normal", "alarming"/"outrageous", and "popular". ...It's Orwell 1984-level propaganda at it's finest.

wYZG7NR9lBI
htIyWA56LNQ

[Voltron]

I'd be a lot more sympathetic if the current political theater wasn't populated with literal Batman villains.

I'm looking at you, Roger Stone.

[Andrew NDB]

The thing is, the hysterical/delusional mainstream media fuels TDS and repeat the world-ending, bigot-at-every-corner narrative constantly. So most who have it, don't believe they do since they are in essence, psychologically depending on corporate-driven media to assure and establish whats considered "normal", "alarming"/"outrageous", and "popular". ...It's Orwell 1984-level propaganda at it's finest.

wYZG7NR9lBI
htIyWA56LNQ

That's actually one of the best posts I've ever seen on this board.

[Voltron]

Oh, man. If you like sarcastic nobodies yammering about fringe politics, have I got a "news" channel for you!

Holy. ****. This guy is as obnoxious as Alex Jones.

And, unfortunately, it looks like in all his research he missed the videos stating that Trump's mental state is deteriorating. And since he's completely unable to disbelieve anything he sees on an internet video, I'm sure Jacques le Douche here is really apprehensive about the future.

[Refractive Reflections]

Oh, man. If you like sarcastic nobodies yammering about fringe politics, have I got a "news" channel for you!

Holy. ****. This guy is as obnoxious as Alex Jones.

And, unfortunately, it looks like in all his research he missed the videos stating that Trump's mental state is deteriorating. And since he's completely unable to disbelieve anything he sees on an internet video, I'm sure Jacques le Douche here is really apprehensive about the future.

...And let me guess, these same individuals who are commenting on Trump's deteriorating mental health are the same individuals who stated Hillary Clinton had a 98% chance of winning the presidency.

The mainstream media can't even decide if Trump's an idiot losing his mind, or an evil genius.

[Prowler]

I've seen some Mark Dice videos. I only watch the ones where he goes around asking people questions, though. I have a soft spot for videos where a guy goes around asking people easy questions and hearing their ignorant or moronic answers. Makes me feel smarter and thus better about myself.

Don't care about his conspiracy video or whatever. But he seems like a funny guy, at least.

[Vegita-San]

somehow got to reading frank connif's tweet timeline.

my god, how can anyone get so wrapped up into politics as to be scary?

when you do stuff like that, it's hard to impossible to separate the entertainer from the man. that's when I had to unfollow John Dimagio because he got trump derangement syndrome pretty quickly.

how can so many people in hollywood act basically like clones politically? it's almost like some odd cult.

[Andrew NDB]

somehow got to reading frank connif's tweet timeline.

my god, how can anyone get so wrapped up into politics as to be scary?

when you do stuff like that, it's hard to impossible to separate the entertainer from the man. that's when I had to unfollow John Dimagio because he got trump derangement syndrome pretty quickly.

how can so many people in hollywood act basically like clones politically? it's almost like some odd cult.

I think a lot of it is it gives people a sense of belonging to something. Like you know, the go to could always be, "Nice weather we're having!" or "Boy those Mets are in trouble!" kind of stuff before, right? Now pretty much anyone can chum it up with celebrities and their heroes with stuff like, "YEAH! Trump is SO STUPID and RACIST! I can't wait until impeachment in 3 days!" and everyone is immediately best friends and the high fives never stop coming. It makes sense on a human level.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I think a lot of it is it gives people a sense of belonging to something. Like you know, the go to could always be, "Nice weather we're having!" or "Boy those Mets are in trouble!" kind of stuff before, right? Now pretty much anyone can chum it up with celebrities and their heroes with stuff like, "YEAH! Trump is SO STUPID and RACIST! I can't wait until impeachment in 3 days!" and everyone is immediately best friends and the high fives never stop coming. It makes sense on a human level.

You kinda just described our entire political system these days.

"Yeah, fvck Trump!" "Yeah, lock her up!"

[Candy Kappa]

I'm looking at you, Roger Stone.

One day he'll get Batman with his army of flightless birds

[Andrew NDB]

...And let me guess, these same individuals who are commenting on Trump's deteriorating mental health are the same individuals who stated Hillary Clinton had a 98% chance of winning the presidency.

The mainstream media can't even decide if Trump's an idiot losing his mind, or an evil genius.

Right on cue:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/30/politics/donald-trump-reelection-numbers-2020/index.html

[Voltron]

...And let me guess, these same individuals who are commenting on Trump's deteriorating mental health are the same individuals who stated Hillary Clinton had a 98% chance of winning the presidency.

The mainstream media can't even decide if Trump's an idiot losing his mind, or an evil genius.

I dunno. I was always wary of the stats they were putting up, because the confidence seemed Karl Rovish.

Trump ran a fantastic campaign. It would've been difficult for anyone to beat him. He talked a big game, and a lot of the GOP were furious that Obama got two terms. On that ALONE Trump gained a lot of popularity. Then Hillary got the nomination and. . . well, you don't win popularity contests by being unlikable.

As far as his mental faculties go, I don't think Trump is "insane". He does have personality traits that make him unfit for the office, though. How anyone can look at the job he's doing and approve is beyond me.

[Leo656]

A lot of celebrities are Scientologists, too, so... yeah, f*ck what they think. :lol:

I always liked Lars Ulrich, because once upon a time during the Iraq debacle, someone asked him what he thought of the war, and George W., and he more or less said, "Nobody should be asking me or any entertainer about stuff like that. Just because we're great at what we do doesn't mean we're political experts or in touch with reality."

Spoken like what a guy who lives half the year on a bus and the other half in a recording studio should say, if he's got even the slightest hint of self-awareness.

These people (celebrities) spend their evenings getting coked up and group-f*cking each other. I care what they think about politics? We're barely even the same species. F*ck outta here with that nonsense.

[Voltron]

I hate hearing this argument.

The current president of the United States was from that culture. He's a reality TV star.

Ronald Reagan was an actor.

If we're going to dismiss the political opinions of celebrities, then we should at least be consistent.

The fact of the matter is that people's opinions count, regardless of who they are. Since we all get to vote, we each have a voice in the discussion, whether we're full of hot air or not.

Listening to celebrities yammer on is pretty underwhelming, since quite a few are out of touch with what most of us would consider average life.

But again, I need to point out that this was the same treatment that Trump received. Twice he ran for POTUS, and twice people belittled his knowledge, criticized his abilities, and doubted his chances to win.

[Leo656]

I don't think all opinions count. At the very least, they're not weighted evenly. An uneducated or uninformed opinion is nothing but hot air. Nobody can tell you to stifle it, but nobody should automatically put any stock in it, either.

For example, ask me my "opinion" about the two teams in the Super Bowl this year. I can make something up just so I have a reply, but the truth is, I don't know. I never knew. I don't know or understand anything about football. You'd be stupid to ask me what I think about it, and even stupider to align yourself with whatever it is that I'd say.

Yes, we all have opinions. Most people just talk to hear themselves, and to sound smart. There are things in which I would say, "You should definitely value my opinion on this, because I know what I'm talking about," and plenty of others where I'd flat-out say that my opinion might get you arrested or deported.

See what I mean? I know that sounds very elitist, but really, it's incredibly important to consider the source before deciding whether or not someone's opinion actually means anything to the conversation they're presently having.

I mean, Gwyneth Paltrow openly tells women to steam-clean their Hot Pocket, and Jenny McCarthy is an anti-vaxxer. Based on evidence, we should dismiss everything either one of them says out of hand, because they've proven themselves to be dangerously stupid. Or even do the exact opposite of whatever they suggest. But we definitely shouldn't be letting them influence how we vote.
-----------

Aside from that, I feel like we've learned the exact wrong lesson from the events you've cited. Actually, I know we have; People seriously want The Rock to run for President. For one thing, those people probably don't know (or don't want to believe) that he's a Republican, but aside from that, what are his credentials? F*cking "Baywatch"? Giving the British Bulldog a Rock Bottom into dog poop? Those events you mentioned are what got us here, and "here" ain't great, supposedly. If anything, we should be making it all the more difficult to get involved in politics and run for office. The original plan was to prevent any random yahoo from getting the Big Job. As you pointed out, we literally elected THE random yahoo. it's scary to think of where we go from here.

I propose a new rule: If you've ever in your life snorted blow off of a Playmate's ass crack, you're automatically unfit to be a so-called "public servant".

[Voltron]

I was trying to extend an olive branch, since a lot of the people here seem to believe that Trump is doing a great job.

I agree that opinions need to be weighed. This new "all opinions need to be heard" thing is going to get us into some serious trouble.

Trump paid porn stars hush money.

When we look at the choices presented to us in the 2016 election, then by all means Hillary was the better of the two choices. She was, as she touted "so qualified".

Trump is and always has been a self-aggrandizing blowhard. He's had zero experience in government and his businesses have repeatedly gone into bankruptcy. Look at Atlantic City, New Jersey if you need an idea of what Trump's business acumen produces.

Trump insulted John McCain and mocked him for getting captured in Vietnam.

Let's not forget that Trump was very clear his negotiation skills during the campaign. He pointed to his businesses as proof that he was able to get people on board with his ideas. Trump even went on television saying that, if the government shut down, it should be considered the president's fault.

Donald Trump mocked a handicapped reporter and overtly suggested his supporters use violence at his rallies.

Trump then went on to lose in a majority, if not all, the key political negotiations he took part in. North Korea gained legitimacy on the world stage by meeting with a sitting US president, and then they continued to build nuclear facilities. Mexico refused to pay for a wall on the US southern border. Nany Pelosi beat Trump in a standoff over funding when Trump shut down the government to force Americans to pay for a free wall.

Trump approved a disastrous raid in Yemen that lead to the deaths of American soldiers as well as women and children.

He lost to Nancy Pelosi. Let that sink in. The Democrats, famous for their inability to stand up to anything stronger than a stiff breeze, managed to stare Trump down. Now, Trump's only real option here is to declare a state of emergency.

But the problem with that is the fabled Wall is going to be a political nightmare. It's going to cost billions if not trillions to construct, patrol, and maintain. It's going to force American citizens to give up their land to allow it to be built. Perhaps worst of all, it's going to leave some areas of the United States on the wrong side of the Wall.

Trump isn't even building a Wall. It's a series of steel slats. Walls are solid structures with no intermittent gaps.

I understand that a lot of people here support Trump and support the Wall. I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. And, while all appearances are to the contrary, I don't want Trump to fail as a president. Nevertheless, he's either greatly overestimated his abilities to carry out the duties of the office OR he's a liar. There's not much in between the two.

If we're going to say that buffoons don't belong anywhere near politics, then why are we so pro-Trump?

[Leo656]

I'd stop short of declaring myself "Pro-Trump", although his reign of terror has somehow worked out very well for me personally.

I always defer to one of the main rules of Journalism, which is "root for the story". I don't like to get too personally or emotionally involved, I just like seeing things play out.

As Carlin infamously declared, I really don't think of myself as "one'a you's." As in part of the collective "human race". I have no vested interest in seeing it continue, and whether humanity thrives for another few millennia or we blow ourselves up tomorrow, I really don't care, so long as it isn't boring and I, personally, am fairly well-set. I didn't cause the problems and thus am not at all interested in being part of the solution.

I just observe and report. 40 or 50 more years, and absolutely none of this will be my problem anymore. In the meantime, crank up the Def Leppard and enjoy the ride. :trazz:

[Voltron]

What problems would those be?

Washing your hands of society all together is damn near impossible. I'm not the only one who's dreamed of dropping off the grid, moving to the middle-of-no-where and living in a self-sufficient log cabin.

As for not being part of the solution, I'm not sure what those are, either. They often seem as nebulous and unfeasible as the problems we're solving.

So long as people just take care of their little part of the world, things seem to go OK. And by that, I mean you're not literally throwing your own crap out of windows, burning your plastic trash, or starting fist-fights with the mailman because you're a "sovereign citizen" and refuse to take part in Illuminati socialism.

I find it hard to believe you're *that* detached from society. And if you are, you should call TLC or something and get a reality TV show. Because that would be hilarious to watch.

[Leo656]

It's really more like, since I can't "escape" society I just manipulate it towards my benefit, while still not being interested in participating in it.

To clarify - and to again paraphrase Carlin - I love certain individuals as I meet them, BUT, am openly disdainful of the majority in general. I don't believe life is sacred, I don't believe in the "goodness" or "decency" of humanity, and I think you only need to look at history to realize that it's all a crock. People only behave themselves because they're afraid of punishment, be it from "the law" or the "Big Boss" in the sky. Remove the threat of repercussions, and marvel as society tears itself apart. Which is why, even though it's vulgar, I have to applaud when someone like Trump drops any and all pretense and just says, "Yep. I'm 100% not concerned about anything I can't profit or benefit from." Because at that point, he's the only person in the room who's being honest. I respect that. I don't respect "moral crusaders", because I've seen the kind of skeletons THOSE people have. They're not "good people", they're just trying to buy their way into Heaven. I honestly find that worse.

So, yeah, not a fan of "people", don't really want to have too much in common with them. I do agree that "police your area, don't actively make things worse" is about as "good" as we can be. That's generally what I try to do.

And my life would make for the most boring reality show ever. :lol: I can see it now: "Episode 7: Sleeping Until 6pm on Sunday".

[Vegita-San]

INevertheless, he's either greatly overestimated his abilities to carry out the duties of the office OR he's a liar. There's not much in between the two.

If we're going to say that buffoons don't belong anywhere near politics, then why are we so pro-Trump?


again, how is trump different from ANY other politician in Washington? look at what we almost had with hillary. a lying person who sabotaged her own campaign. and all the other idiots running on both the democratic AND republican side looked just as scary. they where just more scary than trump, hence why he had the better chance of winning. i.e. seem as the lesser evil.

the biggest problem with people who support politicians veraciously is that they think ONE is better than all the others. when they really, really arn't. they may be better at HIDING their flaws..but they all kind of suck once they get to a higher level of office.

[Voltron]

Episode 7: Sleeping Until 6pm on Sunday

You're living the dream, brother.

again, how is trump different from ANY other politician in Washington?

I understand the general disdain for politicians in general. They've failed us, by and large. A solid number aren't even fit to be in office, I'd say.

The problem with Trump, though, is that he has no idea how the system works.

A big misconception that seems to be pretty common is that government doesn't work because it's lazy. In reality, a lot of the wait with government is the absolute cluster **** of bureaucracy that anyone has to wad through to get anything started, let alone finished.

Think about any time the government contacts you. 99% of the time it's unhappy news. No one wants to work with those guys, even on the best of terms. Government offices are NOTORIOUS for being clogged and backlogged and inefficient.

And that's all the way up to the highest level. Executive orders that instantly create new policy are a unicorn in this case. Everything else is negotiating with Congress, or haggling with the private sector, setting up meticulous and boring agreements with foreign powers. Why anyone would want to be the president is beyond me.

From the beginning, Trump talked a big game. And it was hard not to get excited when listening to him. He was going to force the government to do stuff for a change. And not just small potatoes, either.

He was going to:

1. Build a wall for free.
2. Give us all great, cheap healthcare.
3. Defeat ISIS in 30 days.


And none of that has happened. Not because he didn't try, either. He asked Mexico for money, he tried to negotiate on healthcare, and he fired missiles into Syria. He took action on his promises, but they just aren't feasible.


Contrast this with Hillary.

She didn't sabotage her own campaign. She's just unlikable, which is a problem when you need to win a popularity contest to be president.

Hillary knows how the system works. She's been working in it all her life. It wouldn't be a fun time with her, since the entire country was tired of "politics-as-usual", but it would have been a stable and functioning presidency, if uneventful.

As for lies, that does seem to plague a lot of politicians. However, Trump lies consistently and about things that don't even matter. He buddies up to authoritarian strong men and attends meetings ALONE with Vladmir Putin. Bear in mind, Putin does NOT attend those meetings alone.

Everything about this guy is shady as ****. He's a noted conman and almost everything he touches turns to crap.

Hillary, at the very least, sees things through to the end. Hell, she's married to a guy who bangs interns and she didn't leave him.

And that's not the worst of it.

Hillary sucks, but there were so many better candidates on either side. John Kasich and Jeb Bush were both FAR better choices than Trump could ever hope to be. They weren't as exciting, no. But politics, by definition, is boring. It's a bunch of old men talking about taxes. No one ever gets excited for that.

In the end, we've got what we've got and there's little to do but see where time takes us. Still, I'd much rather we pick someone a bit more experienced and cultured for the next POTUS, and not some doofus who fires off third grade insults, misspellings and all, on twitter.

[Leo656]

My biggest problem with Hillary has always been, she willingly stayed attached to a violent serial rapist - "allegedly" - so she could ride his name into the White House and subsequently the history books. All the victims whom she dismissed, laughed at or openly worked to bury and discredit, all fodder for her aspirations. And even before that, one of her most infamously high-profile cases as a lawyer was in defending a man who - again, "allegedly" - raped a 12 or 13 year old girl, in which she went above and beyond the call of duty to say the least. She's the most anti-woman "woman" alive. But she positions herself as a champion of women. And other women consistently fall in behind her, knowing full well all the details of who and what she is. Because "uterus", I guess? As if that excuses the fact that she's actively worked to silence and discredit rape survivors while playing off of her famous husband so she would profit big time from it.

She's a vile, vile creature, that one is. Trump, I look at and see a snake, behaving in a snakelike fashion. Hillary is like one of those things from "V" wearing a skin suit so it can pass as People.

I don't know. I think we're still better off. Neither one of them deserves any kind of power, but... I'm less comfortable with it in someone like Hillary's hands, and not just because she's a woman. I'm pretty sure Trump is "just" mostly stupid and self-serving while Hillary, to me, radiates Evil.

People have an aura. Hers is radioactive. I'unno, I can't find much good to say about her and never could. Other than, "At one point in the early 90s she was almost kinda hot for like 5 minutes." That's about all I got. :lol:

[Refractive Reflections]

I hate hearing this argument.

The current president of the United States was from that culture. He's a reality TV star.

Ronald Reagan was an actor.

If we're going to dismiss the political opinions of celebrities, then we should at least be consistent.

The fact of the matter is that people's opinions count, regardless of who they are. Since we all get to vote, we each have a voice in the discussion, whether we're full of hot air or not.

Listening to celebrities yammer on is pretty underwhelming, since quite a few are out of touch with what most of us would consider average life.

But again, I need to point out that this was the same treatment that Trump received. Twice he ran for POTUS, and twice people belittled his knowledge, criticized his abilities, and doubted his chances to win.

That's the reason why the rest of America mocks the bi-costal elites. They sanctimoniously lecture to the rest of America that we need no walls, and to ban most/all firearms, and that we should seriously restrict our lives to prevent global climate change, yet their whole lifestyle is hypocritical when they live in walled communities and homes, have armed security guards, and use private planes and energy nonchalantly (https://www.mrctv.org/blog/12-most-hypocritical-environmentalists-hollywood).

So it's okay for the American middle class, poor, and homeless to be exposed to border crime (i.e. violent drug cartels (https://www.businessinsider.com/mexican-cartel-enforcer-warned-about-rising-violence-in-ciudad-juarez-2017-10) and human trafficking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSGirUe5Dr4)), to have no way of protecting themselves (especially for women, who on average, have less physical strength than men), and be susceptible to the economic harm of the Paris (Climate Change) Agreement even though it's loophole is simply just outsourcing those Western emissions to China (https://dailycaller.com/2018/09/06/paris-climate-accord-outsourcing-china/) (is it no wonder that so many companies are for environmentalism when it disguises their underlying job outsourcing motives)?

1R6DposXKm0

[Leo656]

I like you, you silly bitch, come see my room. :lol:

[Refractive Reflections]

This meme says it all about the mainstream media setting the narrative as to what is "outrageous" or "alarming", and worth their time reporting/reacting toward. It's NSFW, and disturbing, but reinforces the point.

https://i.redd.it/j3exnoy78sb21.jpg
Meme from: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/aiab5c/smiling_hate_crime/
11-Year Old Drag Kid Dances in NYC gay club as patrons toss money: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/11-year-old-drag-kid-dances-in-popular-nyc-gay-club-as-patrons-toss-money-a

....And where is the mainstream media's moral outrage here?

[BartAllen]

This meme says it all about the mainstream media setting the narrative as to what is "outrageous" or "alarming", and worth their time reporting/reacting toward. It's NSFW, and disturbing, but reinforces the point.

https://i.redd.it/j3exnoy78sb21.jpg
Meme from: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/aiab5c/smiling_hate_crime/
11-Year Old Drag Kid Dances in NYC gay club as patrons toss money: https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/11-year-old-drag-kid-dances-in-popular-nyc-gay-club-as-patrons-toss-money-a

....And where is the mainstream media's moral outrage here?
I feel so bad for that child. The way the media twisted that occurrence really speaks to the fact that the media is broken.


Trump doing bad things in other countries is pretty much par for course when it comes to Presidents of the United States. He is only doing what Obama, Bush and a litany of other presidents that preceded him.

If you're outraged by Trump's actions and not Obama's or Bush's then you're obviously not applying the same metric when it comes to judging the president.

[Voltron]

If you don't see the difference between a wall around a house and a 2,000 mile long impossible money sink, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

We've been outsourcing jobs for decades. If the Paris Climate Agreement expedited that, then that just begs the question: why haven't these captains of industry saved us yet? Why are you making excuses for billionaires who've been bleeding this country dry and running it into the ground? They're the ones who fill "The Swamp" we all hate so much, but when they decide to cut and run for cheap child labor and lax environmental laws, I just hear applause.

Also, can we get some news sources that aren't so slanted they're practically vertical? I'm not wandering around slapping up TYT videos or some other hyper liberal ********, at least have the courage to look at a centrist opinion.

[IndigoErth]

My question is... why isn't the issue and need for walls resting at least partly in the hands of the states who actually have those borders? If anyone knows the places where additional barriers could be helpful (and/or creating more patrol jobs) it would be those states and the local law enforcement/patrols that oversee that territory. Why are talks not happening with those states, and if they could genuinely use additional fencing in certain spots, then split the cost between state and some additional federal funding to help.

That I could get behind, helping out those states where genuinely needed at present, if the states themselves are going to be partly responsible. (Not so much Trump's envisioned monument to himself.)

Because at the end of the day it isn't entirely unlike most coastal states needing to protect their own exterior borders too, just for different reasons. Beach replenishment is a vital yearly thing to protect people and communities, as well as part of the economy when it comes to beach towns that pull in a lot. And I think for most (all?) replenishment is paid partly by both state and federal. (Although federal funds for this are supposedly shrinking... :ohwell:) I could get behind doing it similarly, if the costs are split and there is an intelligent strategy. Not just slapping a wall from one side of the other without any plan and including where geography or other reasons make it unneeded, because that's like building sand dunes around towns that don't need them, just in case, rather than building them where they are.

[Voltron]

I think that's why the GOP waited until the Dems took the House to really ramp this up.

This is Trump's signature promise, and it's almost impossible to make this happen without ruining a lot of American lives. It'll cut through private property, it'll cost a ton of money to build and maintain, and it'll most likely be ineffective in stopping drug trafficking across the border.

In short: it's a huge political gamble with very little pay off.

The GOP had two years of practically uncontested power to make policy, and they sat on their hands. I think they all breathed a sigh of relief when they lost the House. Now the GOP can play the "overly concerned but powerless" rebels who only want to stop the 80's cartoon villain of the Democratic Party.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

See, that's one of the biggest issues I have with it. My state has the single longest border with Mexico, but MOST of that border is- a RIVER!!! I mean, we already have a frigging natural MOAT, and one used extensively by wildlife on BOTH sides as a source of food, water, commute, etc, but now for some reason he wants to muck that up by screwing with the watershed to build a wall that isn't even needed. To say nothing of farmers and ranchers on either side that rely on that same river for their livelihood. And that's just the start. Voltron mentioned the imminant domain issue, which I've noticed has hardly even been discussed by the feds AT ALL. Too many people would actually be HURT by this. Not to mention the environmental damage, the wasted money and resources to put this eyesore up, and the fact that not one, but SEVERAL historical sites and national parks will be irreparably damaged or destroyed. Yeah, we in the border states do NOT want/need this crap. (Dispite what the resident conservatives will tell you- they have just all drunk the Trump-Aid of border invasion panic.)

[IndigoErth]

and it'll most likely be ineffective in stopping drug trafficking across the border.
Exactly... I saw a post elsewhere a day or two ago where someone (a wall supporter) included a link to an article and went on about this supposedly biggest ever drug bust at the border and, according to this individual, this is why we supposedly need the wall.

And then he/she failed to recognize or mention that it was in fact a tractor trailer coming through the port of entry that was busted, as so many supposedly do, not someone trying to secretly cross with a big bag of drugs slung across their back, so what is a bigger wall even going to change in that scenario?

Not to mention the 'security tool' that ultimately busted the truck was as cheap and low tech as you can get...a dog.


See, that's one of the biggest issues I have with it. My state has the single longest border with Mexico, but MOST of that border is- a RIVER!!! I mean, we already have a frigging natural MOAT, and one used extensively by wildlife on BOTH sides as a source of food, water, commute, etc, but now for some reason he wants to muck that up by screwing with the watershed to build a wall that isn't even needed. To say nothing of farmers and ranchers on either side that rely on that same river for their livelihood. And that's just the start. Voltron mentioned the imminent domain issue, which I've noticed has hardly even been discussed by the feds AT ALL. Too many people would actually be HURT by this. Not to mention the environmental damage, the wasted money and resources to put this eyesore up, and the fact that not one, but SEVERAL historical sites and national parks will be irreparably damaged or destroyed. Yeah, we in the border states do NOT want/need this crap. (Dispite what the resident conservatives will tell you- they have just all drunk the Trump-Aid of border invasion panic.)
:( Yeah, messing with all that just sounds like it's asking for big trouble.


It's funny how quite a few years ago imminent domain was one of the hot button terms and, naturally, considered a bad thing. But now it's okay for this... Strange.

[Andrew NDB]

It's kind of like if I wanted to send my kid to soccer camp and her mom said, "No, we can't afford it." And I say to her, "Are you sure? It costs $20 a month and we spend $300 a month on eating out and going to the movies." She says, "Nope, can't afford it." "But she might get a little better at soccer." "No, she won't." "What? How do you know that?" "I just do." So I say, "OK, well how about a different less expensive soccer camp?" "Nope, soccer camp is immoral." "Wait, I thought it was the cost?" "It's the cost, too." "Well damn... do YOU have any ideas about how she can get better at soccer?" And she puts her hands on her hips and goes, "We're not talking about this."

And on and on. It's very dumb, by the way.

[Leo656]

Christ, Dante, your poetry is epic. That's what we in the "biz" call, "a stiff jab".

I only popped so hard because I've literally seen people do that right in front of me. Were you witness to it as well? Are you... like, over here? ARE YOU THE MATRIX?!?! :fshifty:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

It's kind of like if I wanted to send my kid to soccer camp and her mom said, "No, we can't afford it." And I say to her, "Are you sure? It costs $20 a month and we spend $300 a month on eating out and going to the movies." She says, "Nope, can't afford it." "But she might get a little better at soccer." "No, she won't." "What? How do you know that?" "I just do." So I say, "OK, well how about a different less expensive soccer camp?" "Nope, soccer camp is immoral." "Wait, I thought it was the cost?" "It's the cost, too." "Well damn... do YOU have any ideas about how she can get better at soccer?" And she puts her hands on her hips and goes, "We're not talking about this."

And on and on. It's very dumb, by the way.


Nice try, Andrew, but I'm a bit closer to the issue, seeing how I live in a border state. We hear about it CONSTANTLY. It's literally half the feed in my fb. And the local news. And so on. But again, no one wants to talk about property rights of border residents, or long term consequences of said wall environmentally, or, like, ANYTHING but "DA DRUGS!" when that is barely a drop in the bucket compared to what comes in through LEGAL entry points. For that matter, we get more illegal immigrants from Australia or Canada than we do from Mexico! In fact, Mexico isn't even in the top five!

Let that sink in. But of course, no one complains about THEM, because, hey, they speak English already, they have cool accents, and they look like us. It's patently bigoted. And ineffective, when our biggest busts come in shipping trucks, sniffed out by dogs. And when even Asian countries have more illegals coming in than Mexico does. That should tell you something. The border itself is not the problem. It has ALWAYS benn there, and our state's portion of it (nearly half the entire border!) Is mostly RIVER!! So this "wall" is redundant. And insanely destructive and useless for what it SUPPOSEDLY is intended for. Not the people, but the drugs and crime. Over 95% of our crime is home-grown. Less than 5% is from illegal immigrants. WHAT, exactly, are we "peotecting" ourselves from, again??? If we really want to be honest, the wall is just a big middle finger to all of our southern neighbors, that we don't want "their kind" coming here. AT ALL. And then there are the border town economies. What do you think will happen to them? I'll wait. Oh, and the US military would like a word about that, too.... (Bases taking day leave in Mexico? Am I the only one who thought of that?)

But no, everyone is suddenly obsessed with building a huge wall around our backyard, that we didn't even know we "needed" until Trump's campaign. Funny how that works. The man is obsessed with his wall, but since he's a narcissist, it's really not surprising. They LOVE to make everything about what THEY want, and getting their way, because that's how they think. It's disgusting on a level I can't even describe.

[Voltron]

It's kind of like if I wanted to send my kid to soccer camp and her mom said, "No, we can't afford it." And I say to her, "Are you sure? It costs $20 a month and we spend $300 a month on eating out and going to the movies." She says, "Nope, can't afford it." "But she might get a little better at soccer." "No, she won't." "What? How do you know that?" "I just do." So I say, "OK, well how about a different less expensive soccer camp?" "Nope, soccer camp is immoral." "Wait, I thought it was the cost?" "It's the cost, too." "Well damn... do YOU have any ideas about how she can get better at soccer?" And she puts her hands on her hips and goes, "We're not talking about this."

And on and on. It's very dumb, by the way.


It is dumb. But it's dumb because, like the Wall, no one needs soccer camp.

Here's a better demonstration.

A: "We all need to pay more taxes to build a wall to keep illegal immigrants out."

B: "I thought you said Mexico would pay for it."

A: "Look, this is important. There's caravans of murderers and Middle Eastern rapists crossing the border. They're taking towns hostage. We NEED that Wall."

B: "And you want the government to build that wall?"

A: "Yes. I guess so. No. I mean, we could give it to private contractors."

B: "Don't you hate the government though? I mean, when I asked for higher taxes for health care, you lost your mind. You said it was unconstitutional and that government was a tyrant."

A: "This is different. Everybody can use this Wall."

B: "But we don't live anywhere near the border. I don't see any illegal immigrants anywhere. All the crime around here is perpetrated by native born citizens. Also, I just saw a video where Trump was briefed by border patrol on how the cartels burrow under the walls we have. Studies show that most illegal immigrants come in by plane with visas and overstay."

A: "That's all fake news. And what about the drugs pouring in?"

B: "Don't Republicans espouse personally responsibility? Why is it, after asking for help for so many other things and being denied, that we have to bail out a bunch of people who can't own up to their own addiction? I'm not making them do drugs."

A: "You're cruel and heartless! Those people are out there suffering! They're getting raped and killed and you don't even care!"

B: "What about the $10,000 a month prescription for my kid's cancer?"

A: "That's not MY problem."

B: "This seems to be stemming from some serious unresolved anger issues. You might want to seek a help."

A: "What? How dare you! I've never been angry in my whole life! You better be careful! I have a gun, you bleeding heart liberal cuck!"

B: "Why don't you use the gun to fight off the immigrants. You were yelling last year about how you have the right to bear arms and form a well regulated militia."

A: "You're not an American. You're just mad that Hillary lost!"

B: "I didn't even vote for her."

A: "I'm telling Sean Hannity. He does martial arts, and he'll kick your ass!"

B: "Why don't you just send him to the border? Sounds like he'll karate chop that drug problem right in half."

A: "He should, but then who would tell me what to think?! Now pay up, or we'll shut the government down again and blame everyone but ourselves."

B: "But you just said you were going to do it."

A: "Shut up! No I didn't! I'll get you for this, my pretty! And you're little congresswoman from New York, too!"

[Leo656]

This is all very entertaining. :lol:

It's also why I think we should just annex all of Mexico and South America and start completely over. :lol:

I never said my solutions were practical, just that... well... they're kind of the only way to ever see anything improve on a massive scale. :trazz: Anything in between is just Progress By Inches.

[BartAllen]

There is still a lot of irony to be had that the only Mexican in most of these discussions thinks a border wall/barrier/whatever is necessary.

Oh, and it's not only about drugs. Human trafficking is HUGE. Coyotes DO bring them along routes that are open between mexican and the US. It would be great if a border barrier could stop that.


https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/28/wall-human-trafficking-border/

You can use whatever sophist nonsense idiotic knowledge you want to justify your position, but if one little girl gets to avoid being sold into a life of prostitution then I really don't care about the ramifications of the wall being built. I don't care if Mexico is supposed to pay for it. I want it to protect not only Americans but Mexicans as well.

And if the majority of these illegals came through in trucks why do they chance crossing desserts to get here? Strange when facts get in the way of your moral proselytizing.

[TurtleWA]

Could it possibly work to have “the wall” serve multiple purposes?

A dam can generate electricity, control water flow and let fish swim. Maybe have training based at the wall? When you graduate a program you get the degree. Also job placement and citizenship.

During training you will be required to have work study. Any job like construction, teachers, good service, medical ect. Also, first new job placement would be located around wall location. Giving back type thing. For a set amount of time. Then say after a few years of wall duty new citizens can relocate if they want.

Mexico would split the cost of living for immigrants until legal US citizens. Housing might be in Mexico. Or the wall itself could be home like. Trying to figure out a compromise is all. Every idea has flaws at first.

*this was a random thought and I did not edit for spelling, my apologies

[MsMarvelDuckie]

There is still a lot of irony to be had that the only Mexican in most of these discussions thinks a border wall/barrier/whatever is necessary.

Oh, and it's not only about drugs. Human trafficking is HUGE. Coyotes DO bring them along routes that are open between mexican and the US. It would be great if a border barrier could stop that.


https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/28/wall-human-trafficking-border/

You can use whatever sophist nonsense idiotic knowledge you want to justify your position, but if one little girl gets to avoid being sold into a life of prostitution then I really don't care about the ramifications of the wall being built. I don't care if Mexico is supposed to pay for it. I want it to protect not only Americans but Mexicans as well.

And if the majority of these illegals came through in trucks why do they chance crossing desserts to get here? Strange when facts get in the way of your moral proselytizing.

They are hidden in large eighteen-wheel trailers, often behind or even IN crates for shipping legal goods. This goes for both drugs and people. A wall is not going to stop any of that, becaue they go through actual entry points. The ones going through open wilderness are typically the ones trying to get AWAY from that kind of violence and corruption. It doesn't help when authorities (on both sides) often turn a blind eye if they are paid enough, or are already in on the racket themselves. A wall WOULD NOT MATTER. Those same girls would still be sold into sex-slavery- they just might not be sold HERE. It's even more of a market in many countries overseas where human rights are less recognized, or where laws regarding them are more lax. Like, Hong Kong, the Middle East, Africa, etc....

No wall is going to do anything to stop girls from ANYWHERE being herded into shipping containers and sent on cargo ships, or on trains, or any other form of transport than on foot. That line of thinking is BEYOND short-sighted and myopic, from any point of reference. It is why a border wall WILL FAIL. It is a useless gesture as anything other than a big "f*** you" to the countries south of our border. It's like a big sign saying "no vacancy" or "(insert ethnic group here) need not apply". And it's reprehensible to think that we are doing exactly what Germany did, for basically the same reason- to keep our country "free of THOSE people".

For what it's worth, though, I am almost tempted to say LET him have his damn wall, just so the world sees what a colossal waste of time, money, effort, and resources it will actually be. Or better yet, tell him he can have it, then keep it tied up in so much beurocratic red tape that it simply NEVER gets built. And then let Trump stew on that after he leaves office. Its what government does best, after all!! :tlol:

[TurtleWA]

Coming to America to hide in the shadows is no life. Definitely call it something other than “wall.” Imo. How about gateway? It could develop into an industry designed to facilitating the trip. The gateway center could support itself somehow and pay back the American people for any start up costs. Maybe.

[Voltron]

There is still a lot of irony to be had that the only Mexican in most of these discussions thinks a border wall/barrier/whatever is necessary.

Oh, and it's not only about drugs. Human trafficking is HUGE. Coyotes DO bring them along routes that are open between mexican and the US. It would be great if a border barrier could stop that.


https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/28/wall-human-trafficking-border/

You can use whatever sophist nonsense idiotic knowledge you want to justify your position, but if one little girl gets to avoid being sold into a life of prostitution then I really don't care about the ramifications of the wall being built. I don't care if Mexico is supposed to pay for it. I want it to protect not only Americans but Mexicans as well.

And if the majority of these illegals came through in trucks why do they chance crossing desserts to get here? Strange when facts get in the way of your moral proselytizing.

Idiotic knowledge? Is that like being stupid smart? Or skinny fat?

You're right, though. That wall would definitely stop human trafficking in it's entirety. Human traffickers would NEVER think of a way around a wall, nor would they ship humans to a different country.

Wasn't the dreaded caravan coming from countries other than Mexico? If you're concerned about Mexicans, why not put the wall on the southern border of Mexico and save them all?

. . . You understand how trucks work, right? That last point makes zero sense. People cross the desert in trucks every day with no problem. Or did you literally mean desserts? Do you think they're driving across giant pies?

[BartAllen]

Idiotic knowledge? Is that like being stupid smart? Or skinny fat?

You're right, though. That wall would definitely stop human trafficking in it's entirety. Human traffickers would NEVER think of a way around a wall, nor would they ship humans to a different country.

Wasn't the dreaded caravan coming from countries other than Mexico? If you're concerned about Mexicans, why not put the wall on the southern border of Mexico and save them all?

. . . You understand how trucks work, right? That last point makes zero sense. People cross the desert in trucks every day with no problem. Or did you literally mean desserts? Do you think they're driving across giant pies?
Hey, I'm not interested in discussing descriptors you use to describe yourself.

Anyway, yea. As I stated in my earlier post. Coyotes are not bringing these child caravans through the roadways. They're bringing them over the deserts 2 or 3 dozen at a time. Yes, a wall would stop a lot of that. The wall seems to work in Israel. Oh, and could you point out where I said it would stop it in totality? I don't think it would, but stopping it from happening to one child would be a net benefit for the wall.

Oh lord, and attacking a typo instead of the point I'm making... Good job.

Mexico actually deports its illegals.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46339085

Oh, and there are barriers at the border between Guatemala and Mexico. There are only gaps where there is dense jungle... Don't let that get in the way of whatever nonsense you're typing, though.

And people DO NOT cross the desert on trucks. Most of the trafficking at the border is done on foot. Make stuff up, though. I know winning an argument on the internet matters to you.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/us/migrant-deaths-and-human-trafficking-by-the-numbers/index.html

Here's an article talking about a substantial drop in border arrests when fencing was put in place along the border. I get that you don't care about people suffering. That's obvious. I get it. You just care about appearing virtuous and not implementing things that could actually help people.

I keep hoping you can actually address my arguments instead of insulting me. I know it's hard when you don't actually have a real argument and just ape CNN.

They are hidden in large eighteen-wheel trailers, often behind or even IN crates for shipping legal goods. This goes for both drugs and people. A wall is not going to stop any of that, becaue they go through actual entry points. The ones going through open wilderness are typically the ones trying to get AWAY from that kind of violence and corruption. It doesn't help when authorities (on both sides) often turn a blind eye if they are paid enough, or are already in on the racket themselves. A wall WOULD NOT MATTER. Those same girls would still be sold into sex-slavery- they just might not be sold HERE. It's even more of a market in many countries overseas where human rights are less recognized, or where laws regarding them are more lax. Like, Hong Kong, the Middle East, Africa, etc....

No wall is going to do anything to stop girls from ANYWHERE being herded into shipping containers and sent on cargo ships, or on trains, or any other form of transport than on foot. That line of thinking is BEYOND short-sighted and myopic, from any point of reference. It is why a border wall WILL FAIL. It is a useless gesture as anything other than a big "f*** you" to the countries south of our border. It's like a big sign saying "no vacancy" or "(insert ethnic group here) need not apply". And it's reprehensible to think that we are doing exactly what Germany did, for basically the same reason- to keep our country "free of THOSE people".

For what it's worth, though, I am almost tempted to say LET him have his damn wall, just so the world sees what a colossal waste of time, money, effort, and resources it will actually be. Or better yet, tell him he can have it, then keep it tied up in so much beurocratic red tape that it simply NEVER gets built. And then let Trump stew on that after he leaves office. Its what government does best, after all!! :tlol:
Again, it works for Israel. When they built their wall terrorism plummeted. Granted, it wasn't a perfect fix, but it stopped a lot of the bad acts.

Oh, and Voltron, you see this post right here? This is a cogent/thoughtful argument that actually addresses some of points I was talking about in my post. I don't agree with this person, but I at least have the wherewithal to respect a well thought argument even I don't agree with it.

All I see from you is thinly veiled insults hiding the fact that you really can't refute anything I've written in any of my posts. If an insult is all you have then you really don't have anything. Keep trying though. It might work one of these days.

Oh, and I notice that this poster has done a lot of cussing in their post. I don't seeing you harassing them... It's almost like you're selectively choosing when and where to apply the rules.

One final thing. When I say idiotic knowledge what I mean is the knowledge you acquired to justify your positions is obviously idiotic and slanted.... To be fair, it was a poor example. I should have said that you are using sophist nonsense to justify your obviously slanted opinions based on your warped ideologically driven worldview.

[Leo656]

Yikes, this is a touchy subject.

I'm just curious what some alternative solutions might be. Hopefully, "It's too far out of our hands, man... f*ck it" isn't on the table. I mean, I don't wanna read too much into what people do or do not say, but it almost sounds like that, sometimes.

And, I mean, I've actually personally spoken to people who've said as much. "We can't stop it, just let the floodgates open," which is... terrible.

It's always better to come down "too harshly" on the side of law and order, rather than advocate chaos in the name of "being nice". But that's me.

I'unno. If not wall/barrier/misc., then what? I mean, I'm okay with landmines but I'm kind of "not right" in general so that's probably not a good idea.
--------

Bart, Voltron's a Mod and also fairly approachable. I suggest taking the back-and-forth to PM regarding issues such as posting tone and/or selective enforcement. I'm hearing you, but I think it might be better to segregate the on-topic posts from the personal conflict segments, just to prevent another thread explosion.

Just a suggestion. In case it's never been made obvious, I'm on neither's "side" as I respect each of you quite a bit, just offering solutions to the betterment of everyone.

[BartAllen]

Yikes, this is a touchy subject.

I'm just curious what some alternative solutions might be. Hopefully, "It's too far out of our hands, man... f*ck it" isn't on the table. I mean, I don't wanna read too much into what people do or do not say, but it almost sounds like that, sometimes.

And, I mean, I've actually personally spoken to people who've said as much. "We can't stop it, just let the floodgates open," which is... terrible.

It's always better to come down "too harshly" on the side of law and order, rather than advocate chaos in the name of "being nice". But that's me.

I'unno. If not wall/barrier/misc., then what? I mean, I'm okay with landmines but I'm kind of "not right" in general so that's probably not a good idea.
--------

Bart, Voltron's a Mod and also fairly approachable. I suggest taking the back-and-forth to PM regarding issues such as posting tone and/or selective enforcement. I'm hearing you, but I think it might be better to segregate the on-topic posts from the personal conflict segments, just to prevent another thread explosion.

Just a suggestion. In case it's never been made obvious, I'm on neither's "side" as I respect each of you quite a bit, just offering solutions to the betterment of everyone.


Fair enough. I'll stop the bickering.

I just think it's funny that I get blamed for this nonsense when I never start it. I only give as good as I get. If I'm approached in a civil manner I will be more than happy to be civil in return.

Again, a border wall isn't going to stop all of the illegal immigration. That's a fair point that some of you all are making.

I do think there needs to be an easier path to citizenship as well. I know people that are in this country illegally that are here working a job and living their life. They're good hardworking people that would make fine additions to this great country. When I say I want a border, I mean I want a protection from the cartels and the perverts. I'm willing to try ANYTHING to stop that. Israel and a few other places have shown that a barrier would work.

To me the border wall is a good idea. It was a good idea in 2006 and 2008 when Obama was in favor of it. It's still a good idea now a little over a decade later. I don't know why people didn't seem to have a problem with it then and do now. It's almost like they don't really care about the wall. They just want to go against Trump and they think that by being against the wall they're somehow sowing strength against Trump.

https://youtu.be/l01_2tvtQcE

Now, if you want to talk about Trump going back on his promises. Stuff like "Mexicans will pay for it" Okay, that's a fair argument, but then I'm going to counter that with, "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor". I couldn't keep my doctor and a number of other people couldn't either. That was a lie. Where was the ire and indignation when that lie happened? Why wasn't Obama called out for his obvious lying to the American people? It's almost like this outrage is being applied selectively. It's almost like there isn't really any outrage. It's almost like this is just an almost 4 year old tantrum that people are throwing and they're looking for any excuse to justify the fact that their specific warmongering candidate lost to an orange tinted buffoon.

I mean, let's face it... what's worse? A buffoon or the person that keeps continually losing to the buffoon?

Oh, and studies have not shown that most illegals in this country have just overstayed visas. It's shown that about HALF of illegals overstay their visas. The other half is pouring in over the border.


Oh and i'm STILL waiting for an explanation as to how someone can read someone else's emotional state over the internet. Those esp powers are kicking into overdrive, I guess.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

No, the other half is "pouring in" from ALL points of entry. Again, ship, freight transport, trains, any way thwy can get here. ONE wall won't stop the illegal immigration from say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, or Vietnam, or.... well, anywhere but our southern border. Because, again, immigrants coming through our southern border from Mexico (or further south) are not even in the top FIVE countries of origin! The sad fact is that NONE of the caravans would even be coming here if A), their own countries weren't so horribly corrupt and unlivable due to poor governance, and B) Trump hadn't harped on his wall so much that mass panic set in and now they all feel the need to get here before it becomes "impossible". (Not that it will actually stop anyone but the families on foot, or a few carloads here and there, but that's beside the point.)

Also, NO, most trafficers don't come in on foot. Too hard to prevent their "merchandise" from escaping or getting lost, attacked by wildlife, etc. They want their investments to actually get here. Trying to keep track of a dozen or more young girls (and boys!) while treking through difficult terrain with litttle supplies or protection is just ridiculously ineffective and stupid. Too much loss along the way that way. The ones on foot or in small vehicles are almost ALWAYS families, including pregnant women who want their kids to be born here to be citizens. The trafficers are too smart to waste reources by letting their "product" roam loose. It's common sense that coerced, forced marching over hundreds of miles would lead to FAR more dead or escaped "assets" than would ever actually reach their destination alive and well enough to be sold. Buyers want their toys to be usable, y'know.....

[BartAllen]

No, the other half is "pouring in" from ALL points of entry. Again, ship, freight transport, trains, any way thwy can get here. ONE wall won't stop the illegal immigration from say, Canada, or Zimbabwe, or Vietnam, or.... well, anywhere but our southern border. Because, again, immigrants coming through our southern border from Mexico (or further south) are not even in the top FIVE countries of origin! The sad fact is that NONE of the caravans would even be coming here if A), their own countries weren't so horribly corrupt and unlivable due to poor governance, and B) Trump hadn't harped on his wall so much that mass panic set in and now they all feel the need to get here before it becomes "impossible". (Not that it will actually stop anyone but the families on foot, or a few carloads here and there, but that's beside the point.)

Also, NO, most trafficers don't come in on foot. Too hard to prevent their "merchandise" from escaping or getting lost, attacked by wildlife, etc. They want their investments to actually get here. Trying to keep track of a dozen or more young girls (and boys!) while treking through difficult terrain with litttle supplies or protection is just ridiculously ineffective and stupid. Too much loss along the way that way. The ones on foot or in small vehicles are almost ALWAYS families, including pregnant women who want their kids to be born here to be citizens. The trafficers are too smart to waste reources by letting their "product" roam loose. It's common sense that coerced, forced marching over hundreds of miles would lead to FAR more dead or escaped "assets" than would ever actually reach their destination alive and well enough to be sold. Buyers want their toys to be usable, y'know.....
Again, yes they are. I'm not talking about drugs. Human trafficking is mostly being done on foot.

They drive within walking distance of the border (usually a few miles) then walk across the border then drive, in another vehicle, once they're on the other side. They're walking them over because it's easier to fool the ground sensors. If they drove over, Border Patrol would be on them far more quickly.

Coyotes are smart. They're are able to hold on to the women and children through intimidation tactics. Usually the promise of a better life.

You are right that a lot of the countries they're coming from are corrupt from the bottom up. I understand why these people are doing this. Most people coming to this country just want a better life for themselves and their family. Unfortunately, they're being taken advantage of by the cartels and other nefarious organizations.

Oh, and numerous people DO die making the trek over the border. It's a huge problem that is vastly underreported.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrant_deaths_along_the_Mexico%E2%80%93United_Sta tes_border
https://www.lubbockonline.com/texas/2012-12-31/.UwZmUmJdXD0

I've read that the estimates are all WELL BELOW the number of people that are actually dying.

A border wall would stop on average around 500 people from dying annually. People wouldn't make the dangerous trek and people smugglers wouldn't try to bring them in on foot at night. Remember, they have to bring them through the desert because the more easily accessible areas are blocked by a barrier. They either die from heat exhaustion during the day or from hypothermia at night. The reason they think there is more than likely more bodies than reported is because the smugglers will bury the bodies to avoid detection.

Another thing, the reason they're taking these dangerous paths is because of the fact that the barriers that have been used have been shown to work. They avoid trying to get over in areas with fences/walls.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Oh look, BartAllen and Voltron are talking again. Cool if I just sit here and wait for things to escalate? :tgrin:

[Leo656]

The sad fact is that NONE of the caravans would even be coming here if A), their own countries weren't so horribly corrupt and unlivable due to poor governance

I empathize with this. However, their problems are in no way MY problem.

I've been broke, homeless, beaten, abused, stolen from, you name it. Whenever I've reached out for help, be it from friends, family, or government, I've been told "You're responsible for your own life." My life sucks? MY responsibility to fix it, not to force others to do it. I've come to accept that whether that's "fair" or not, that is indeed how it works. It's not as simple as breaking into my neighbor's house and raiding his fridge if my living situation isn't as good as theirs. Even when I was a kid, with my parents in and out of jail and sometimes living in conditions where we didn't even have electricity for weeks or months on end - "You just have to do the best you can within your 'limitations'."

So frankly, I'm a little bit insulted that people from other places can assumedly just come in, claim "My life Back There sucks", and be given far more credit and concern than I ever received. Why is it that THEY can claim, "I need help, I want a 'Better Quality of Life'", but I can't? What about MY quality of life? Seriously, we ALL want "a better quality of life", that goes without saying. But there's some seriously shady sh*t going on when it comes to who "deserves" a pat on the ass and who doesn't.

I empathize with the fact that some people in 2019 live in countries where things like electricity, clean water, vaccines, and flushable toilets may as well be non-existent. This is why we shouldn't turn a blind eye to things like entire countries being operated by drug cartels, because that's the sh*t you get. We shouldn't let the fact that collectively, people REALLY like cocaine overshadow the fact that ultimately, letting these drug dealers run these countries is keeping them slaves and making everyone a second-class citizen. We need to do something about that, or we'll never see change. But meanwhile, although it sucks that people still have to live like that... It's seriously NOT my problem.

Best advice I can give those people as to a short-term way to ensure "Better Quality of Life"? DON'T GET PREGNANT! Don't have kids! If your life situation is that horrible, and you bring an innocent life into it, you should be put in jail. And if you get pregnant and try and hop a border fence or smuggle yourself in just so you can have an "anchor baby", I think you're disgusting for that, too. And don't tell me that it's "impossible" to avoid getting pregnant even if you're poor; it's not 1950. If people wanna make bad decisions, at some point we need to stop rewarding them for it. "But my life sucks!" Yeah, I know, so stop making it worse, and don't spread the misery around onto a f*cking newborn. THINK.

Inevitably, making their lives "better" is going to make someone's life worse in some way, generally someone who's already been here. It's unavoidable. We don't have infinite space in which to shelter people nor infinite resources to take care of them. People apply a credo from hundreds of years ago when half of the country was undeveloped forest and the rest was desert, as if it has ANY bearing whatsoever on Today, when we're cramming people into buildings that practically skim the clouds and charging them $5000 a month for the privilege because we have nowhere else to put anyone. But sure, let's just pile a few million more on top, what the hell. We're already f*cked, and besides, their life Back There sucked marginally worse than it will here.

Easier path to citizenship. Sure. Yes. Fine. But there NEEDS to be procedures and a Pecking Order. We can't just grant "asylum" to everyone with a sob story. That's disastrous thinking.
---------------------

Oh look, BartAllen and Voltron are talking again. Cool if I just sit here and wait for things to escalate? :tgrin:

https://i.imgflip.com/6udpn.gif
SHADDAP, you! :trazz:

[Voltron]

At the risk of sending you on another meltdown: Did you even read the articles? It said they were apprehended by AMERICAN border patrol at AMERICAN barriers and sent back to Mexico. It also said the people coming in were coming by trucks. In fact, the whole article talks about how they come in mostly by truck, because the cartels won't let them. It also says that they're likely to be apprehended by American border patrol.

In short: it's saying that a wall wouldn't work.

I don't NEED to address your points. You do that for me. And even if you didn't, most of the time you pull them right out your ass and demand respect for them.

Also, don't call ME stupid. You're the one who isn't making sense. Learn to form a coherent thought.

And if the majority of these illegals came through in trucks why do they chance crossing desserts to get here?

I hope you actually READ the articles YOU POST from CNN, instead of accusing other people of aping them.

Now here's a fair warning: if you don't stop just making up stuff and acting like you won the internet, I'm deleting your posts. Everyone else in here actually makes sense, whether or not I agree with them. People arguing the finer points of the finances, legality, or efficacy of the plan. Hell, even the video where the guy mocks celebrities for building walls makes a half decent and intelligible point.

You just barge in and go, "Coming by trucks, eh? Well! Here's an article proving you right!"

I can do that, too. I can just say stuff and demand you prove me wrong. But that's not how arguments work. YOU have to support your own case. Start doing that, and things will run WAAAY more smoothly.

[Voltron]

I'm happy that, in a thread complaining about people being too sensitive, we got a real world example of people losing their mind over. . . something?

This is why we can't have nice things.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

This has been an amazing time on the 'Drome and I'm just sorry I didn't get to see this play out in real time. :tlol:

[Candy Kappa]

I missed out on BartAllen's tantrum and being banned, what a bummer.

[Voltron]

I'm sure they'll be a next time. . . :roll:

[Leo656]

Thank you for modifying your Sig just for me.

[Voltron]

I had no idea people were a fan. I think I took that from Lil G almost a decade ago.

I miss the old days when I'd come to the Drome and could see a 10 year old spitting fire about how hard he goes on the playground.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

I had no idea people were a fan. I think I took that from Lil G almost a decade ago.

I miss the old days when I'd come to the Drome and could see a 10 year old spitting fire about how hard he goes on the playground.

Monkey business at the monkey bars, after recess. Be there.

[Leo656]

Talk about deranged:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ocasio-cortez-ice-doesn-t-205008602.html

It takes a deranged person indeed to talk about "We are a nation of laws" and "Let's just let all the illegal immigrants in unimpeded" within the same breath. WOW. I've seen her speak enough to know for a fact that she just rambles on without thinking, but this is a good one, even for her.

Including requisite heart-tugging pleas for sympathy:
"Children dying in detention centers should not be a partisan concern. It should be a universal concern for every American in the United States.

Easily flipped by a rational-thinking person into:
"One or two children dying in detention centers because their parents conceived and birthed them without any actual plans for raising them, apart from using them as political tools, should not be ANYONE'S concern. People who are incapable of raising children simply shouldn't have them in the first place."

If this chick didn't have an awesome rack, nobody would give her the time of day. As it is, she's probably gonna be the next President. :roll:

[Voltron]

But that's not what she's saying.

Nobody but loons are demanding open borders and a free-for-all immigration policy.

This is demanding a return to due process for asylum seekers and an end to family separation policy.

It used to be, if people came to the US as a refugee, they would be set aside in refugee centers and have to wait for their case to be reviewed by a judge. If it was decided that they were not, in fact, in need of asylum, they would be sent packing. This was, by all accounts, a notably strict process with very few people actually making it in to the US this way. Even if they did, I don't think they were given citizenship right out the gate. They were just allowed to seek citizenship with the rest of the legal immigrants.

The other half of the article deals with the 2,000+ children the Trump administration has separated from their parents and put in detention centers. The parents were then deported, but the children remained. When asked to return the children to their parents, the administration said it would be difficult or impossible to do so. Many still remain here.

The argument people are putting forth is that the parents never should've come, and that losing their children is just the consequence. But the families came seeking asylum, which in the past granted some protection. This kind of treatment was totally unexpected. And even if it was, the separation of children without due process is just a REALLY cruel deterrent.

TL;DR- Nobody, GOP or Dem, wants open borders. Some people want to stop kidnapping and imprisoning children.

[Andrew NDB]

When caravans 10,000 strong approach the border and either sneak into soft (or nonexistent) spots in it or openly charge it... this is always going to be a thing. Because what is the alternative? We build giant hotels for them at the border, just in case? Staffed 24/7 by thousands of housekeepers and hotel staff, just in case, adding untold billions to the already yearly 150 billion illegal immigration costs us? That's insanity. Our border patrol is doing the best they can under insane circumstances.

[Voltron]

Which, again, isn't the case. We let in 30,000 a year. And most of them aren't from South America.

It's not like they're staying at the 4 seasons. They live in concrete buildings with the bare minimum.

And even if we DID build giant hotels on the border staffed with workers to tend to their needs, how would that be any more expensive than a 2,000 mile wall which also needs to be staffed.

[IndigoErth]

The other half of the article deals with the 2,000+ children the Trump administration has separated from their parents and put in detention centers. The parents were then deported, but the children remained. When asked to return the children to their parents, the administration said it would be difficult or impossible to do so. Many still remain here.

The argument people are putting forth is that the parents never should've come, and that losing their children is just the consequence. But the families came seeking asylum, which in the past granted some protection. This kind of treatment was totally unexpected. And even if it was, the separation of children without due process is just a REALLY cruel deterrent.
Additionally, people complain that illegals cost us money, okay sure, but somehow these kids they presumably don't want in the country (I mean, what with being resistant to DACA/Dreamers as it is), yet aren't putting them back with their families, are ignored as also costing us? I mean who is feeding them other than tax payers? It's a tax dollar leak they could correct and yet seem indifferent to doing so.

Plus, with all the fear mongering that illegals want to hurt us, you can't do this to those kids without causing permanent psychological damage. The perspective almost always seems to be from the angle of this being against the parents, it being their fault of losing their kids for doing this and thus this is their punishment, as if it has no impact on the kids. Do people really have such a hard time seeing children as human beings? Because honestly, it's probably much worse from that angle, because if they mess those kids up badly enough with this, then you risk creating messed up future adults and it almost becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. Yes, lets make sure to mess some of them up so that they do want to hurt people someday... Great plan.

[Andrew NDB]

Which, again, isn't the case. We let in 30,000 a year. And most of them aren't from South America.

We "let in" 30,000 a year. This doesn't account for the ones that barge in, or the ones that it is impossible to have data for because they successfully sneak in undetected.

And even if we DID build giant hotels on the border staffed with workers to tend to their needs, how would that be any more expensive than a 2,000 mile wall which also needs to be staffed.

That's dumb. Obviously a 5 billion dollar wall as a one time thing (barring whatever repairs need to be made from time to time) is going to be less money than a daily, recurring fee of untold millions to staff and keep these giant hotels open.

(I mean, what with being resistant to DACA/Dreamers as it is)

You realize those are two very different things.

Plus, with all the fear mongering that illegals want to hurt us, you can't do this to those kids without causing permanent psychological damage.

And I'm positive we don't, intentionally. We don't have resources on hand 24/7 to play Sherlocke Holmes and find people's moms and dads for thousands of people rushing the border. I have no idea why that is even on us. The overwhelming mass majority of these kids are coming unaccompanied.

I have a better idea: why don't they apply for a green card legally, from the comfort of their home? 0% chance of family separation.

[Candy Kappa]

That's dumb. Obviously a 5 billion dollar wall as a one time thing (barring whatever repairs need to be made from time to time) is going to be less money than a daily, recurring fee of untold millions to staff and keep these giant hotels open.

lol the wall will cost more then $5b to be built

[Andrew NDB]

lol the wall will cost more then $5b to be built

What, are you a wall building expert? In any case, let's even assume there's some overage. It's still going to be less than the 150 billion spent on illegal immigration every year... and we only have to do it once.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

What, are you a wall building expert? In any case, let's even assume there's some overage. It's still going to be less than the 150 billion spent on illegal immigration every year... and we only have to do it once.

In Candy's defense, you don't have to be a wall expert to know it will be over budget.

When has the government ever been under budget for anything?

[Vegita-San]

agreed....and since when has the government spent $5billion wisley anyway? might as well go to a campaign promise. it's just going to get wasted elsewhere

[Candy Kappa]

What, are you a wall building expert? In any case, let's even assume there's some overage. It's still going to be less than the 150 billion spent on illegal immigration every year... and we only have to do it once.

It's been estimated that the wall will be between $20b to $25b, DHS estimated it to be $21b

And build a wall over this:

https://www.revealnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/fencefacts-mountains-16x9.jpg

Suuuuuuuure, that'll be "measly" $5b.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Yup. Everyone seems to assume it's all just flat desert, but it's not. Much of New Mexico and Arizona (and the Texas westernmost border) are very mountainous and change in elevation drastically. Then there is the Rio Grande, which in some places is on our side of the border, and in others, the Mexico side, or in many places, IS the border. Where do you build the wall there? You really can't. This wall would be a logistics nightmare if we tried to actually build it. Billions would be spent only to end up with something ineffective and likely unstable or poorly placed. Much of that land erodes easily during heavy rains, meaning that we'd have to be CONSTANTLY rebuilding entire sections due to the very land crumbling away under it! You just can't throw a big concrete or steel barrier up in mountainous desert or heavy brushland, and expect it to not degrade quickly due to natural conditions. Not only that, but portions of the land it would cross are also seismically active. That just spells failure. The ones calling most loudly for it are the ones with the least amount of foresight and understanding of what it will entail.

[Voltron]

A wall will not be a one time thing. Like any structure, it'll require constant maintenance and upkeep. Plus, this is being subjected to natural forces and "bad hombres" looking to get past it. It's going to cost WAY more than $5 billion.

And that's to just build. We're ignoring the property of American citizens that needs to be used. The government will have to invoke eminent domain on hundreds to thousands of people, all of which can come right back and slap the federal government with a lawsuit.

If the Mueller investigation is costing millions and taking forever, wait until there's a line around the block to sue the government trying to build the world's biggest wall through their yard.

Perhaps most importantly, we know that Trump lies about damn near anything. Why should we trust him about that price tag?

On the other hand, Trump said he's already building the wall without the approval of a committee. So, there you go! Now we're safe.

[Andrew NDB]

Border patrol says we need it. That's good enough for me. They're the ones in the trenches, not you or I.

[Leo656]

I say we gave up on land mines too quickly. Just in general.

[Candy Kappa]

Border patrol says we need it. That's good enough for me. They're the ones in the trenches, not you or I.

Seems more like Border Agents want improved funds for better roads to patrol on, surveillance, lighting, better fences (y'know that barrier thing you can actually see through and see what happens in the other side), better training and better manpower.

[Voltron]

I wonder how Trump will get his employees after he puts up that impenetrable wall. . .

[Leo656]

Didn't Kelly Osbourne say that on some TV show she co-hosted and get yelled at for it?

[Voltron]

It always bothered me that any mention of hiring illegal immigrants is quickly hushed and swept under the rug.

A crack down on illegal hiring practices would be a major factor in cutting back illegal immigration, I think.

I know the talk of "socialism" and the appearance of democratic socialist politicians is unpalatable, especially to common American sensibilities. But there's a few things we, as a nation, have to understand about all of this.

1. The growing popularity of "socialism" is in response to corporate practices. Companies have been getting bigger and reporting huge, often record breaking profits. Meanwhile, the middle class isn't fairing any better. So we're making more money for our bosses, but we're not seeing any return for it.

2. Any attempt to reign these companies in is often met with a stubborn tantrum from the top tier. In the past few years we've seen popular support for, and a total failure to obtain healthcare reform AND wage increases. Both were either met with cries of "socialism" or worry that businesses will go under from either plan.

3. A great many people have broken with Trump and the GOP, including some very hardline conservatives over the immigration issue. Not because of the "injustice" or "racism" aspects of it, but because stricter immigration laws mean that can't hire dirt-cheap labor.

Awhile ago, Leo656 mentioned that he knows people that would very much do the work often filled by illegals, but the opportunity isn't there.

Stricter laws on corporate corruption would not only open those opportunities to American citizens, but if those "socialist" bastards get their way and tax the **** out of CEOs, then we could build Trump's wall and have enough left over for a second one, just in case.

Still, the thought of taxing our corporate overlords is horrifying to us. I have no idea why. They're mortal. They bleed just like us. They're no better than we are. But we've fooled ourselves into thinking that, somehow, we're all going to suffer if make those assholes pay their fair share.

We need to take a lesson from history here. There's 300+ million people in the United States, and a lot of us are getting screwed. Of course socialism is going to be popular when one guy has billions of dollars while other people are living on food stamps.

[Vegita-San]

for andrew, this guy could be your next batman!

OVZZR8gQn7M

[Andrew NDB]

Well... the Harris thing didn't last that long and now it's back to Trump, Trump, Trump on CNN.

https://i.ibb.co/z24XMnD/Untitled-2.jpg

[IMJ]

Good for you for the screen cap and not linking to it.
F' CNN. Let that organization drown in it's ranting and fear-mongering all while their hosts abuse women and call for destruction.

[Cowabung-Gal]

One of my aunts has TDS but right now it’s the DeSantis variant so I’ll call it DDS.

She lives in Florida and is a retired government employee, so she’s living the life for sure. Yet DeSantis is somehow ruining it for her. She hates his guts, and she hates all Republicans and their values. She called my mom, her own little sister, a racist just because she leans more to the Right, even though there isn’t a racist bone in my mom’s body. She also detests the 2nd Amendment and thinks that only the government should have guns.

Growing up, I adored my aunt. She’s always treated me right and I looked forward to visiting her and my uncle. I still love her dearly, but she’s not the woman I thought her to be. The Trump years have really exposed her ugly side and it’s heartbreaking.

[Andrew NDB]

dQnxN_SnhBg

HzgFE8XIVZY

I wish I hadn't have watched these. Seth Macfarlane is a total card-carrying hard leftist. He's bought into all of it. I thought for sure he was fairly conservative, even if secretly. Well, definitely not!

[IMJ]

No no he's been a borderline psychotic-inexplicable-rage-liberal forever. He's a straight up Derangement Member of the hate-brigade who would be out marching with pitchforks and torches in the peasant-revolts on Frankenstein's castle dude.

Always going to have people like that and they don't even know who they are. All throughout history.

[Jeff]

I wish I hadn't have watched these. Seth Macfarlane is a total card-carrying hard leftist. He's bought into all of it. I thought for sure he was fairly conservative, even if secretly. Well, definitely not!

Who's next? Matt Stone and Trey Parker? Stephen Colbert?! Have you seen anything Seth's ever created? I've never watched an interview of him and this is one of the least shocking revelations I've ever seen.

[Jeff]

No no he's been a borderline psychotic-inexplicable-rage-liberal forever. He's a straight up Derangement Member of the hate-brigade who would be out marching with pitchforks and torches in the peasant-revolts on Frankenstein's castle dude.

Always going to have people like that and they don't even know who they are. All throughout history.

Right next to these guys.

https://time.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/white-nationalist-rally-charlottesville-violence-16.jpg?w=1520

[Cowabung-Gal]

Funny thing is, Seth wrote cartoons and starred in movies in the 90s and early 2000’s that would’ve gotten him cancelled in the late 2010’s and 2020’s because they aren’t politically correct and would surely offend the wrong kind of people.

I mean, Ted in Ted 2 even outright said, “There are no chicks with d***s!” Whew, mama, say that in 2024 and see how long you survive before the mob tears you apart.

[TurtleManiac]

Right next to these guys.

https://time.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/white-nationalist-rally-charlottesville-violence-16.jpg?w=1520

“patriot front” ? :lol::lol::lol:

totally not the feds

[Jeff]

“patriot front” ? :lol::lol::lol:

totally not the feds

neo-nazis aren't known for being creative.

[TurtleManiac]

neo-nazis aren't known for being creative.

Agreed. They could put a little more effort into the costumes while posing as "magats".

https://i.imgur.com/B0mBdQv.jpg?4

[Cowabung-Gal]

Earlier this week, a US airman, Aaron Bushnell, set himself on all the while shouting “Free Palestine”.

wDXk4caw5Q8

A lot of wackos are praising this dude for ending his life for a “noble” cause, but clearly he had mental issues. I mean, I think what they’re doing to animals in testing labs is really wrong, but I’m not gonna pour gasoline all over myself in front of Aveeno’s headquarters and light a match while screaming “Stop animal cruelty”. Only deranged people hurt themselves in protest.

This man should not be applauded; he should be pitied, and his family needs comfort right now.

[IMJ]

No no he's been a borderline psychotic-inexplicable-rage-liberal forever. He's a straight up Derangement Member of the hate-brigade who would be out marching with pitchforks and torches in the peasant-revolts on Frankenstein's castle dude.

Always going to have people like that and they don't even know who they are. All throughout history.

Right next to these guys.

I don't know who those people are in your picture. One of them has a shirt on saying "Murdock Murderer" and the only thing that comes to mind is that it's a bunch of people out protesting against that guy from the Netflix special who killed his family in Alabama or something like that....

[Andrew NDB]

AOC has abandoned her community, apparently.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/aocs-red-light-district-plagued-crime-democrat-who-helped-her-rise-power-says-she-disappeared

[neatoman]

HR9pwVqXx4A

Damn, not even AI can make Kamala Harris not sound monotone.

[ToTheNines]

AOC has abandoned her community, apparently.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/aocs-red-light-district-plagued-crime-democrat-who-helped-her-rise-power-says-she-disappeared

AOCIA has more important things to do.

[Stu_Padasso]

AOC has abandoned her community, apparently.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/aocs-red-light-district-plagued-crime-democrat-who-helped-her-rise-power-says-she-disappeared

Like so many “outsiders” and “rebels” like Howard Stern and Eminem, AOC now has a seat at the table and is part of the establishment. She doesn’t care.

When the hell did being right of center make you “Punk?”

[Andrew NDB]

I got excited today. I saw an boosted post for a Christopher Titus post about that during COVID, he'd shot a 2 part finale for his old sitcom, TITUS, and that it was now available on his Youtube channel. I remember being very fond of that show, and also wondering what Titus has been up to all these years. He was a pretty funny guy.

Imagine my disappointment when I go to his Youtube channel and I don't find any TITUS finale at all, just back-to-back, hundreds of videos screaming about Trump this and Trump that, nazis, blah blah blah and all the usual stuff. This is becoming some real "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" sh**.

[ToTheNines]

Patton Oswald comes to mind, thinking of this type of person.

[IMJ]

I got excited today. I saw an boosted post for a Christopher Titus post about that during COVID, he'd shot a 2 part finale for his old sitcom, TITUS, and that it was now available on his Youtube channel. I remember being very fond of that show, and also wondering what Titus has been up to all these years. He was a pretty funny guy.

Imagine my disappointment when I go to his Youtube channel and I don't find any TITUS finale at all, just back-to-back, hundreds of videos screaming about Trump this and Trump that, nazis, blah blah blah and all the usual stuff. This is becoming some real "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" sh**.

:lol::lol:
I remember that show.....

Another weirdo, huh?

[Andrew NDB]

:lol::lol:
I remember that show.....

Another weirdo, huh?

I was going to post some Youtube videos from Titus' podcast... but you can already guess the titles. "How Trump's America is EVIL!" "How Trump STOLE the Election!" "Trump is the new HITLER!" "Why we NEED (illegal) Immigrants!" and so on. Looks like a lot of Palestine stuff, all of the "Omni-Cause" boxes are checked. Didn't see any trans stuff there but I'm sure it's in there, too.

[Wolfie65]

Politics is puppet theater for adults.
A scripted 'reality' show designed to distract the sheeple masses from what's really going on and keep them trapped in the false 'left vs. right' paradigm.
Those affected by derangement syndrome - on all sides - have not realized this yet.

[Coola Yagami]

Politics is puppet theater for adults.


Except it forces the audience to participate, whether they wanted to go to the show or not.

[IMJ]

Politics is puppet theater for adults.
A scripted 'reality' show designed to distract the sheeple masses from what's really going on and keep them trapped in the false 'left vs. right' paradigm.
Those affected by derangement syndrome - on all sides - have not realized this yet.

Aka "peasant thinking". People concentrating on nonsense, but then exacerbating the nonsense by tying their existence and "self-virtue" to nonsense causes.

It makes you wonder - what came first? The derangement leading to the need to project the virtue, or the need to project the virtue just flows into derangement over a topic.

My guess is that it starts with life-failure/life-anger combined with the inability to look at oneself. Someone has the failure and the anger over it and can't handle looking in the mirror so instead the finger is pointed at "the racism", or "the misogyny". And this fulfills several "needs" for the peasant-thinker - it allows an outlet that reduces cognitive dissonance for the life-failure and reduces self-pain because "someone else is to blame and I am virtuous as evidenced by my social-bull$#!(".

And at the end of the day from all of that psychology you now actually have evil. Witch-hunts. Deranged hate. Social onboarding. It's the weakest of humanity that we've let run free doing this in society for the last decade or so. Basically society's children.

[Coola Yagami]

And at the end of the day from all of that psychology you now actually have evil. Witch-hunts. Deranged hate. Social onboarding. It's the weakest of humanity that we've let run free doing this in society for the last decade or so. Basically society's children.

Kinda reminds me of the transpeople that bullied a fellow transperson into suicide just because they were friends with Chapelle.

[Andrew NDB]

A look into the mind of Mark Hamill:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/news/mark-hamill-says-he-almost-left-u-s-after-trump-win-then-his-wife-pulled-a-jedi-mind-trick/ar-AA1KORjd?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=4ce9ccfbb54c402a8c3f65aedef3a13b&ei=28

[Barkworm]

I'm pretty sure one of these had been locked before.