Derangement Syndrome Profiles: Christopher Hasson [Archive]

Andrew NDB

02-23-2019, 02:32 AM

I think the problem with the right -- at large, anyway -- is that there's a lot of religion at work there. And religion makes people do wonky things. But it also scares other people away from doing bad things for fear of a supernatural spanking now or in the hereafter. I don't have a single religious bone in my body, but I can see its worth as a core. When I was younger I proclaimed it as a crutch we should have shucked off a while ago... now? I dunno... maybe some people really need it.

That said, I don't get consumed with painting half the country in a certain light because of 5 instances of crazy people doing crazy things. Obviously Jessie Smollet isn't indicative of the whole left, what they would do, any more than stories around election time of "the KKK endorses Trump! How damning is that for Trump??!?" or "crazy Trump fan did crazy thing!" Or any of your citations.

But to talk about the left? The "further, all the way to far" left? Pure Orwellian horror show. It's literally all things that are bad. Slowly push the 2nd amendment so far back until it is impossible to get a gun? Open borders because all Americans (north and south) are natives here? Punish, lock up and ruin livelihoods of people for stuff they wrote on Twitter... or simply supporting the other party? Trivializing due process? Owning the language, to turn it against everyone else and demonize people? Straight up socialism?

These are all things that are bad. All things that have signaled the end of all things that are good in countries elsewhere.

I definitely lean to the right (at least... this is where I find myself now... I never considered myself such until the last couple of years and certainly got up and cheered loudly when Obama was elected) but even stepping back for a moment objectively... the left's endgame is far more horrifying than the right's. What is the right even doing that's so horrible? I agree the drilling (the fracking is particularly concerning) needs to stop, and we should get on the fast track to replace fossil fuels with something more sustainable. Ignorance about global warming is concerning... but if none of the other giants in the world are going to change their ways and they will drag us into the abyss anyway, why should we cripple ourselves? "We need to be the leader in this!" I get, but they're not going to follow. Period point blank. China? Russia? They don't care. Maybe they'll care when it's already too late... but at that point, it's... literally too late. Abortion? None of the republicans talking hard about banning it have even the slightest illusion it is going to be banned (you know my stance... we need MORE abortions! let's pump those numbers up!). Maybe the super late term stuff, if anything.

Leo656

02-23-2019, 03:06 AM

And religion makes people do wonky things. But it also scares people away from doing bad things. I don't have a single religious bone in my body, but I can see its worth as a core.

I agree with many things in that post, but perhaps none more than this.

I've said myself, many times, that despite being mostly-agnostic myself, society needs religion, or it simply can't function. Human beings need at the very least the IDEA that the wicked will be punished, by a power greater than any that we can conceive of ourselves. Because I've met many, MANY people who will tell you to your face, they don't fear the police, the government, the military or jail. But they absolutely fear the wrath of a vengeful God, and that's literally the only thing that keeps them from their own personal rape/murder spree.

My personal opinion of humanity is rather dim. I don't believe in "good people", because I've seen too much. I think people maybe want to be good, or try to be - sometimes sincerely - but ultimately, we are horrible at avoiding temptation. I don't think every single man locked in a room with a sleeping woman would do something horrible... but I think most would, and the fear of repercussions is the only deterrent. Or any random person locked in a room with tons of cash; if nobody would EVER find out, most people would skim. I've personally witnessed so many "good people" do awful things when they thought nobody saw, and were convinced they'd never be caught or punished, that it really makes me feel like people only behave themselves at all, because they don't want to be punished later.

And again, some people are openly not afraid of jail; many people WANT to go there because it's "easier" than being in the real world, since they don't have to hold a job or pay bills and such. I'm pretty sure that's how God and religion were invented in the first place; the threat of imprisonment or even death wasn't enough to stop people from lying, stealing, raping and murdering; so what do you do? Tell them, "Well, if you misbehave badly ENOUGH, then you're gonna get the worst cosmic spanking you've ever imagined, for all eternity, with no possibility of parole." And you can't disprove it, it MIGHT be true. You might NOT burn in hellfire forever and ever for every bad thing you've ever done... but you MIGHT. The fact that it can't be proven or disproven is crucial to the entire thing. We train kids on the basic idea with Santa Claus - better be good all the time, OR ELSE, because the invisible judge who you can't see (but can always see you) is always keeping score. Then, when they're old enough, we just replace "Santa" with "God", but it's the same principle. "Even if you think the police or the government won't catch up to you, someone will eventually, so you better just behave. OR ELSE."

Fear is the prime motivator in all of existence. We eat, because we're afraid of starving. We exercise, because we're afraid of being overweight or unhealthy. We work, because we're afraid of being poor and homeless. And we behave, and ultimately, it's because we're afraid of what might happen if we don't. Every single choice we make as human beings, is motivated by the fear of what MIGHT happen otherwise. Without fear, there's no motivation for self-improvement; genuine altruistic "good" behavior simply doesn't exist. We're not wired that way. Fear is what makes us follow our higher brain functions and put our primitive selfish, greedy, baser impulses aside. Otherwise, we would all just take whatever we wanted, whenever we wanted, and there'd be total anarchy.

I'm no fan of how religious dogma is constantly twisted into hate speech by extremists. And I really don't know if there's a higher power, and if there is, I'm pretty sure we're not on speaking terms by this point. But at the same time, if it were somehow ever proven beyond the shadow of any doubt that "God" did not exist... what we call "civilized humanity" would collapse very quickly. Like "weeks at best" quickly.

We see proof of this in the general behavior and attitudes of your average sociopath; they're convinced that their moral authority trumps all others, that they're above all forms of punishment because they had the "strength of will" to behave in a manner that others find shockingly inappropriate, and most of them don't believe in any higher power, and thus, they're "beyond judgment". It's scary to imagine billions of people all adopting that attitude at once, overnight. And that's absolutely what would happen. We'd eat each other, possibly literally. Because honestly, Why Not?

Not a fan of religion. But we definitely need it in general.

Andrew NDB

02-23-2019, 03:34 AM

I've said myself, many times, that despite being mostly-agnostic myself, society needs religion, or it simply can't function. Human beings need at the very least the IDEA that the wicked will be punished, by a power greater than any that we can conceive of ourselves. Because I've met many, MANY people who will tell you to your face, they don't fear the police, the government, the military or jail. But they absolutely fear the wrath of a vengeful God, and that's literally the only thing that keeps them from their own personal rape/murder spree.

I hate it, but this really seems to be the case. But not even to those extreme examples... but even on a basic level. We largely have no shame anymore on a very basic level.

This isn't healthy.

I'm pretty sure that's how God and religion were invented in the first place; the threat of imprisonment or even death wasn't enough to stop people from lying, stealing, raping and murdering; so what do you do? Tell them, "Well, if you misbehave badly ENOUGH, then you're gonna get the worst cosmic spanking you've ever imagined, for all eternity, with no possibility of parole." And you can't disprove it, it MIGHT be true. You might NOT burn in hellfire forever and ever for every bad thing you've ever done... but you MIGHT. The fact that it can't be proven or disproven is crucial to the entire thing.

I feel like these are almost exactly the discussions that were had by whatever the hypothetical minds were that "interviewed Jesus" (they didn't and there wasn't, probably, but whatever) 2000 years ago for Bible, Vol. 1, #1 sitting on the sidelines watching an untenable situation unfold in front of them, society-wise. Except there's just plain a whole lot more people now... and iPhones. And Youtube. And reality TV.

I really believed when I was younger that we can just remove religion from all things and people would naturally do good all on their own (and maybe there is still some path to this... but right now I don't see it) and just naturally evolve into the future I watched as a kid with TNG... but that's just obviously not in the cards. I mean, it's just not. You just have to turn on the news or anything and watch for 5 minutes. It's corporate brainwashing of the highest kind. We the sheeple...

Sumac

02-23-2019, 06:15 AM

I wonder if we find examples of left-leaning people being scum, would Voltron cry himself to sleep?

Voltron

02-23-2019, 08:33 AM

My head's so far up my own butt that when I brush my teeth and wipe my ass at the same time!

No. But I like how you didn't actually look. You just came in to be your usual cheery self. Do you ever add anything of value here?

Seriously. I sit and watch people from all walks of life having conversations, even vehemently disagreeing, and still act like decent human beings.

Then you wander in and just say some snippy, usually poorly spelled, crap that many times doesn't even make sense.

You're handing out 6th grade insults on the internet. Get a damn life. Ass.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Forgive the outburst. I've been keeping that one in for a looooong time.

Anyway,

But to talk about the left? The "further, all the way to far" left? Pure Orwellian horror show. It's literally all things that are bad.

You really need to show your sources for this. The fringes of either wing are spooky as hell, but most of the terrorism and flat out "destroy everything" insanity comes from the right.

The left says some zany things, but these are people who, again, think raw water is a good idea. They buy jade eggs for their vaginas and get eaten by the wild animals they try to marry.

Slowly push the 2nd amendment so far back until it is impossible to get a gun?

The only person to EVER consider that was Trump. Literally.

http://time.com/5184160/trump-guns-due-process/

Open borders because all Americans (north and south) are natives here?

Which politician said this? I know there's been a push for "path to citizenship" immigration reform, but I've never once heard anyone in the government argue for open borders.

Punish, lock up and ruin livelihoods of people for stuff they wrote on Twitter... or simply supporting the other party? Trivializing due process? Owning the language, to turn it against everyone else and demonize people? Straight up socialism?

Again, this is typical of right wingers. Trump has stated in no uncertain terms that SNL should be investigated. He's even made very alarming allusions to violence towards the press.

The left's MO is more to banish people from public life altogether. Arguably, that may be worse. Some of the people that the SJWs come down on never recover. We'll never see Louis C.K. again, it seems.

These are all things that are bad. All things that have signaled the end of all things that are good in countries elsewhere.

They are bad, but they aren't happening. Or if they are, it's the right that's typically behind them.

Which countries are you talking about? I know Australia gave up their guns, and Japan has very strict gun laws, and neither of those places are smoldering hell holes.

I definitely lean to the right (at least... this is where I find myself now... I never considered myself such until the last couple of years and certainly got up and cheered loudly when Obama was elected) but even stepping back for a moment objectively... the left's endgame is far more horrifying than the right's.

What is the right even doing that's so horrible?

Putting children of illegal immigrants in cages and letting people adopt them for a profit.

Conducting backroom deals with dictators and hostile foreign powers.

Employing several advisers, managers, and representatives who are either under investigation or convicted of numerous felonies.

Bypassing Congress and setting a dangerous precedent for future abuse of the Constitution.

Failing to denounce white supremacists and neo-Nazis.

Failing to act when American citizens are assaulted by foreign agents on American soil.

Currently under investigation for almost every act the Trump administration has undertaken.

Failing to fulfill or outright breaking almost all of their campaign promises.

Election fraud.

Assaulting journalists.

Gaslighting the country and clouding the national discourse by demonizing the press and refusing to cooperate in investigations.

Giving more tax cuts to the ultra wealthy who already don't pay taxes.

Supporting pedophiles and sex offenders who run for office.

That's just off the top of my head.

It bothers me that there's such a different metric used for the right and the left.

If any member of the Democratic party did ANY of this, there'd be a **** storm of Biblical proportions.

For example, let's take Jussie Smollett. He's getting skewered by all the notably liberal late night talk show hosts.
Same goes for Anthony Wiener.
Al Franken was forced to resign for his faux pa.

As for the "straight up socialism", I'm more and more convinced people have no idea what that even means. It's like saying the Boogeyman is in their closet, or they're self diagnosed with depression.

The Democratic party is so far to the right that the idea of common social programs like insurance and maternity leave are horrifying.

Contrast that with places like Japan, where people literally work themselves to death. THEY have social medicine plans and a year's maternity leave.

These aren't radical ideas. Every other developed nation in the world is doing it and somehow, any time some one suggests workers should get a raise, we all stand on a chair and shout "eek! a socialist!"

I don't get it. The left may be unpalatable, but they certainly aren't as dangerous as the right is right now.

Sumac

02-23-2019, 08:51 AM

No. But I like how you didn't actually look. You just came in to be your usual cheery self. Do you ever add anything of value here?

Seriously. I sit and watch people from all walks of life having conversations, even vehemently disagreeing, and still act like decent human beings.

Then you wander in and just say some snippy, usually poorly spelled, crap that many times doesn't even make sense.

You're handing out 6th grade insults on the internet. Get a damn life. Christ.
This is ironic coming from a guy trying his best to promote his agenda on half-dead forum about cartoon and comic book characters, when it's clear that most people don't give a ****.

Maybe you should follow your own advice anf get something better to do?
Twitter activism is obviously not your forte. Can I suggest knitting?

Voltron

02-23-2019, 09:10 AM

If you don't like this place, why are you here?

Vegita-San

02-23-2019, 09:38 AM

I wonder if we find examples of left-leaning people being scum, would Voltron cry himself to sleep?

saying stuff like that doesn't help, either.

while I agree that it sometimes feels/reads like voltron is leaning toward trump derangement syndrome, he's right that there are horrible people on both sides of the coin.

only in this case, these days, it's FAR easier to prove the 'left' (god I hate those terms) leaning people are far crazier than 'right'....cause you hear more of the horrible stuff they do. jussie just being one of many examples.

then you have crazy people like jane curtain wishing death on the republican party.

Sumac

02-23-2019, 10:12 AM

If you don't like this place, why are you here?
I wouldn't be here, if I didn't like this place.

saying stuff like that doesn't help, either.
I am not the one turning this place into political battleground.

I don't like this "idealization" of the certain ideology, which spreads oppression Olympics, infantilism and victim culture.

Prowler

02-23-2019, 10:19 AM

What do I think of this Christopher Hasson fellow? Well, he seems to be a nutjob. I don't really have anything else to say about him.

Leo656

02-23-2019, 10:37 AM

Me neither, but I suddenly wanna hang out at Denny's with Voltron and Andrew until 3am and scare all the waitresses with our charming shenanigans.

You're invited too, Prowler, but you have to promise to be extremely off-putting or this thing isn't gonna work.

Vegita-San

02-23-2019, 10:46 AM

I am not the one turning this place into political battleground.

I don't like this "idealization" of the certain ideology, which spreads oppression Olympics, infantilism and victim culture.

all I'm saying is, if someone on the opposing side can STILL try and present their argument with either facts, or something that is well worded and doesn't devolve into insults.....they deserve an opposing opinion that is equally well worded and more of the same.

So many people on the 'left' side of things have wound up on the ignore list, because they just don't respect common courtesy in dealing with people. calling folks a homophobe because they don't like noelle stevenson using she-ra as a personal LBGT platform, for instance.

But, if a person can respond to you with a well thought out response, it's worth giving them the same chance with an equally well thought out reply.

there's too few of those types of conversations left out there these days...

Prowler

02-23-2019, 10:48 AM

Leo656

02-23-2019, 10:51 AM

Vegita-San

02-23-2019, 10:52 AM

I really believed when I was younger that we can just remove religion from all things and people would naturally do good all on their own (and maybe there is still some path to this... but right now I don't see it) and just naturally evolve into the future I watched as a kid with TNG... but that's just obviously not in the cards. I mean, it's just not. You just have to turn on the news or anything and watch for 5 minutes. It's corporate brainwashing of the highest kind. We the sheeple...

religion got invented in a time of EXTREME lawlessness. when the average life expectancy was probably no more than 30. and not due to violence or crime either. I have a feeling most religion started off as a cult, like scientology, and over time, grew into something almost respectable.

Personally, I've always been one to follow my own path in life. I don't like people telling me what to do, or what to believe. I follow life by my own rules, and try to do it in a decent, well mannered, well behaved way. almost to the point of boringly preppy.

But, if Religion where nothing more than scaring people into doing the right thing, or else go to some imagined hell, I guess I can see the point in it existing.

but then again, you're talking to someone who snuck his gameboy into church and played with the volume down.

Prowler

02-23-2019, 10:56 AM

You could easily pass for a typical Rutgers student with that approach, Champ. :trazz:

When we get to Denny's, you have to stay at least 4 hours, and you have to promise to ONLY order coffee and eternal refills. They love that sh*t.

I could? Wait, are you also suggesting I should get weed on my way to this Denny's place? Cuz I don't smoke pot, brother.

Candy Kappa

02-23-2019, 11:01 AM

but then again, you're talking to someone who snuck his gameboy into church and played with the volume down.

hey, samesies

Prowler

02-23-2019, 11:05 AM

I've only been to religious buildings as a tourist. Like Notre Dame and such. Guess I lucked out.

Catholic churches are quite dark inside, lemme tell you that. Not to mention they also are bigger on the inside than they look from the outside. It's like they belong to a Popeye episode.

Candy Kappa

02-23-2019, 11:13 AM

I've never been in a Catholic sermon, only visited one as a tourist. My partner had to cover her slutty slutty shoulders :lol:

old Norwegian churches can get quite dark, especially the one where I grew up as it barely had electric lights. So mistake the first time I brought my Game Boy Color, no lights so I couldn't play. Second time I brought a plug-in light and got caught by my teacher :lol: Since some holiday sermons was mandatory in School.

If you exclude marriage, funeral, christening and confirmation and the times School forced me; you can probably Count on one hand how many times I've been to a sermon

Prowler

02-23-2019, 11:18 AM

I've never been in a Catholic sermon, only visited one as a tourist. My partner had to cover her slutty slutty shoulders :lol:

old Norwegian churches can get quite dark, especially the one where I grew up as it barely had electric lights. So mistake the first time I brought my Game Boy Color, no lights so I couldn't play. Second time I brought a plug-in light andf got caught by my teacher :lol: Since some holiday sermons was mandatory in School.

If you exclude marriage, funeral, christening and confirmation and the times School forced me; you can probably Count on one hand how many times I've been to a sermon

I think when I went to Norway as a kid I went inside an old as hell Church made of wood. I don't think it still was used for anything other than tourists and such going inside it. The smell of wet wood and grass combo was kinda funny.

Candy Kappa

02-23-2019, 11:27 AM

cool, was it one of the stave churces or just a really old one?

I've been to a stave church once, don't remeber why I was there but it had a lot of cool carvings inside

Prowler

02-23-2019, 11:32 AM

cool, was it one of the stave churces or just a really old one?

I've been to a stave church once, don't remeber why I was there but it had a lot of cool carvings inside

This was in like 2002 so I don't remember it very well. Googling "stave church" they look a lot bigger than the one I remember going into. I don't remember it having a lot of stuff inside either.

Sumac

02-23-2019, 11:43 AM

religion got invented in a time of EXTREME lawlessness. when the average life expectancy was probably no more than 30. and not due to violence or crime either. I have a feeling most religion started off as a cult, like scientology, and over time, grew into something almost respectable.
Depends on what kind of religion you are talking about.

If you mean religion as a "system of beliefs", those most likely had evolved naturally from various superstitions, without much organisation involved.

If you mean religion as "organised cults", all of those had started exactly as you had said.
From cults, to terrorist cells (disrupting way of life of the state, while constantly claiming victimhood, winning sympathy of the normal people and than eliminating opposition, while claiming they love everyone equally), to country-wide state-affiliated organisations after bribing, convincing or threatening local leaders.
Leaders of those organisations don't care about morals or ethics, but only about maintaining power and money at any cost.

Mayhem

02-23-2019, 11:47 AM

The Democratic party is so far to the right that the idea of common social programs like insurance and maternity leave are horrifying.
Welcome to what many of us have proported for decades... for all the labels that Democrats are vilified as being “liberal” or “socialist”, the simple truth is that there are two right wing parties in the US, the concept of “left of centre” is completely alien.

Candy Kappa

02-23-2019, 02:26 PM

It’s still a bit adorable that so many Americans think the Democratic Party is left wing

Voltron

02-23-2019, 08:54 PM

Seriously.

Obama didn't even support gay marriage until his second term. The "Red Scare" is alive and well in the United States.

The thing that's really frustrating, though, is that the original socialist movement in the United States is responsible for a lot of the things we enjoy today.

Weekends
Forty hour work week
Paid vacation
Labor Day
Public transportation
Public libraries
Guaranteed public education
Social Security
Community Colleges
Police and Fire Departments
The military
Roads and the high way system
National Parks

Hell, FDR was a Democratic Socialist who lead the country into its golden age. So if you use or appreciate ANY of that at all, congratulations! You're a socialist.

I always want to see these hardcore capitalists give that up. If they hate and fear socialism so much that the mere mention of it sends them into a panic, then stop paying taxes and live completely off the grid.

Somehow, we want all of that but without making any of the sacrifices necessary for that. And by sacrifices, I mean taxing billionaires. If you make under $10,000,000, you're safe.

Anyone here clearing that? Then stop blubbering. Let your ****** boss feel the heat for once instead of electing him to public office to screw you harder.

Sumac

02-24-2019, 02:32 AM

Hell, FDR was a Democratic Socialist who lead the country into its golden age. So if you use or appreciate ANY of that at all, congratulations! You're a socialist.
What a simplified view.

I always want to see these hardcore capitalists give that up. If they hate and fear socialism so much that the mere mention of it sends them into a panic, then stop paying taxes and live completely off the grid.
They hate what Socialism leads to - namely stuff like USSR and North Korea. Since there are no purely socialist countries, which didn't devolve into totalitarian madness or ruin, those fears are justified.

Also idea that "everyone are equal and should have the same payment" is laughable and doesn't work, unless you replace all humans in society with robots.

Somehow, we want all of that but without making any of the sacrifices necessary for that. And by sacrifices, I mean taxing billionaires. If you make under $10,000,000, you're safe.
Sounds eerily close to the typical Bolshevik tripe: "take everything from rich and give it poor and we will be happy!" Except this doesn't work at all.
But good luck dancing on shovels.

Leo656

02-24-2019, 03:04 AM

I personally dabble in Objectivism, but people generally really think that's "mean", because it rejects out of hand the notion that everyone is equal or deserves to have things they personally didn't earn just because someone else has them. But the idea that some people are just more "exceptional" than others and we sort of rely on them to keep pushing things forward is something that kind of seems hard to ignore or dispute. People like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs may have been assholes but they only ever could have achieved what they did in a capitalist society, and in turn the rest of the world is better off. That's the "Prime Mover" theory in action. The peripheral idea - which I think Gates himself was discussing recently - is that if you handcuff "The Rich" too tightly they just take their business someplace where there's less regulation, and get even more "creative" with their bookkeeping, so they get to keep more of "their" money, which ultimately just hurts everyone below them even more.

It was a bit shocking to read a bonafide Evil Rich Person essentially say what I've openly said all along - "You can't try and punish rich, successful people for being rich and successful, they're going to take home whatever they feel is 'fair' and if you get in their way then they just go around it" - but it was nice to be validated that that is indeed how it works.

I mean, when a rich person says, in plain English, "If you tax us more, we just hide our money better", I feel like maybe we should listen to them and start realizing we're not equipped to "beat" them. Maybe we should just let them do what they do and let nature take its course. Most of the time they really do invest in job creation and infrastructure, which in turn helps everyone beneath them in time. But the "Robin Hood Method" simply doesn't work. You can't just create "fairness and equality" by essentially stealing from people who worked hard and giving people who don't want to a pat on the butt.

It's complicated because on one hand, we obviously need taxes to maintain society's infrastructure. But on the other hand, ALL taxation is simple theft on its face, so the idea that there's ever a "fair" amount to tax ANYONE, at any income level, is always going to be controversial. So when the talk swings to, "Well, maybe ____ SHOULD pay more," it's like "Geez, why don't you just use a gun? It's more honest."

Pure capitalism or pure socialism absolutely couldn't work - you can't pull the lettuce and tomatoes apart from each other and still call it a salad, after all - but I know which system's tenets ultimately seem more "fair" from where I sit.

I think we're doing alright as a relatively-young country altogether, though.

Andrew NDB

02-24-2019, 03:08 AM

I mean, when a rich person says, in plain English, "If you tax us more, we just hide our money better"

Or they just up and leave the country. And not in a Miley Cyrus, "If Trump wins, I'll leave the country!" way and then they don't.

No, they'll actually just leave.

Leo656

02-24-2019, 03:11 AM

"Who Is John Galt?" :tgrin:

Sumac

02-24-2019, 06:09 AM

It's complicated because on one hand, we obviously need taxes to maintain society's infrastructure. But on the other hand, ALL taxation is simple theft on its face, so the idea that there's ever a "fair" amount to tax ANYONE, at any income level, is always going to be controversial.
Unless you can single-handedly create and maintain your own infrastructure, than I don't see how taxation is a theft.

Leo656

02-24-2019, 08:06 AM

Because they can arbitrarily demand more whenever they want, without asking you, and if you refuse then by default you're a criminal.

ALL taxation, by definition, is theft strictly on principle. I was not asked to contribute, I'm merely told that I have to or else I go to jail. I'm not against the idea of people contributing for the greater good, but the fact that it functions as it does is problematic.

Ultimately, it's simply a way to punish people for being more successful than their peers, because regardless of the percentage, if you've earned more, you pay more. And it's not a conversation, it's a demand. "WE have decided, without your input, what your 'fair' contribution must be to society." Meanwhile, others contribute nothing, yet still reap the benefits thanks to myself and others.

It's a necessary evil, certainly, but it's also extortion and theft. I'm very much Not OK with anyone but me deciding how much of my money I'm allowed to keep.

I'm not a fan of "insurance", either. See, these things all pile up and ultimately people are left nothing but slaves. And the decisions are made far above their pay grade, without any conversation. It's kind of exactly why we decided to be our own country, and then everybody just kinda forgot what made us mad enough to do that in the first place. We're now generally okay with people in suits demanding greater sacrifices from us to pick up the slack for people who don't do anything, but after a while, it just gets really annoying.

You can put a gun in my face and say, "Pay up or I'll shoot." OR, you can send me a letter and say, "Pay up or you go to jail." In either case, I'll play along for my own sake but I'm entirely not happy about it.

Sumac

02-24-2019, 08:36 AM

Good luck with maintaining your own personal power plant, waterways, garbage disposal and so on, than.

Leo656

02-24-2019, 08:53 AM

I never said I planned to stop paying taxes. Simply that I disagree with the general idea that someone else gets to control my financial destiny, and that I'm effectively punished if I earn over a certain predetermined amount. These decisions were made without my input.

Today, when I go to the store, I pay 6.625% sales tax; next week, it could be 10%, and nobody asked me. I have no choice but to go along with it whether or not I agree with it, but if you ask me how fair it is, I'll say "Not at all."

Part of why I don't vote, is because I am an extremely complicated person and no politician or party will ever be capable of truly representing me. In some ways, I'm very conservative, in others, very liberal, and to topics such as this, very Libertarian. But those are individual things, and I'd never choose any faction to adhere to 100% of the time as policy. But as a rule, we're forced to pick one side and stick with it, which I'm not capable of doing. And I don't sign my name to anyone or anything I don't believe in 100%.

So anyway, this is one of the topics on which I fall more Libertarian. Everyone should have to chip in a bit but at some point enough is enough, and the fact that it's a demand is unseemly. But no, I never said I wouldn't play along. Just begrudgingly. They can have my compliance but not my support.

Prowler

02-24-2019, 03:53 PM

You hardly feel like you're responsible when voting for legislatives or, in USA's case for the presidentials. The guy(or woman) you're voting for is always gonna end up appointing a bunch of ministers and such that you don't like when he/she becomes PM or President... if he/she does.

City hall elections and other local elections are usually "fairer" in this regard. You end up feeling like you're actually voting for a person in particular instead of voting for their party platform.

Funny enough, the elections that tend to have the highest abstention rates all over Europe are European parliament elections. Which is kinda absurd, since A LOT of our laws come from the EU, therefore people shouldn't just ignore them as being "meh, pointless elections".

I personally enjoy voting. When I turned 18 I was legally able to vote for the first time ever in early-mid 2009 for the European parliament elections. It was pretty exciting. Now, I'm not saying I haven't missed any elections since then, because I did miss a couple, but I do enjoy the ritual of waking up on a Sunday morning, going to the nearest school, wait a bit line(usually I don't get very long lines when I'm gonna vote. Guess I'm lucky), enter the room, picking up the bulletin, writing my cross, folding the bulletin twice and putting it in the box. It makes me feel like my opinion actually matters for once. The very first time I felt like an adult was voting in my first ever election.

Anyway, no party or candidate I've ever voted for won yet. Not a single time. And tbh, looking back, I'm glad they didn't in some cases. :lol:

Voltron

02-25-2019, 03:27 AM

Or they just up and leave the country. And not in a Miley Cyrus, "If Trump wins, I'll leave the country!" way and then they don't.

No, they'll actually just leave.

Good. Then tax their businesses.

And if they threaten to pull out their business, good.

Then those struggling Mom and Pop stores get a chance to thrive.

Why are you so scared of these people? They're flesh and blood and nothing god damned special. Stop making excuses like these people are necessary. They aren't.

I'm tired hearing people panic over their kings leaving.

FredWolfLeonardo

02-25-2019, 05:39 AM

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/12/central-america-migrants-rape_n_5806972.html

Build the wall.

I'm actually quite surprised to see you back. Thought you were permanently banned :o

BartAllen

02-25-2019, 06:01 AM

I'm actually quite surprised to see you back. Thought you were permanently banned :o

I'm surprised too.

I'm just not going to address people that are trolling me. I will only address the issues and use stats to back up my claims. Especially since it seems I will be held to higher scrutiny than others.

Or they just up and leave the country. And not in a Miley Cyrus, "If Trump wins, I'll leave the country!" way and then they don't.

No, they'll actually just leave.

And that's the problem.

Some would say to tax their business. That wouldn't work. They could just change the location of their headquarters to another country that has a 'nicer' tax rate and then all the jobs lost from moving said headquarters would have a net negative impact on the local populace that depended on that headquarters for revenue. It's already happening.

People move their corporate headquarters to tax friendly countries and then just use direct foreign investments to get their items into the United States.

Now these companies will still have to pay a tax to the United States to operate within the country, but they won't have to pay the massive (I think highest in the world) corporate tax rate by leaving the United States.

Here's an article talking about countries with a friendlier tax rate.

https://www.businessinsider.com/best-corporate-tax-havens-2010-11

Look at what AOC just did. She cost the state of New York 25,000 jobs... Did she help average americans or harm them?

Here's an interesting Op-ed talking about how AOC killed much needed tax revenue for the state of New York as well as jobs for th POC population of New York.

https://nypost.com/2019/02/16/aoc-is-destroying-opportunity-for-fellow-democrats/

Leo656

02-25-2019, 06:08 AM

And 25,000 was a lowball number. Some sources say it could have been double. I forget what the average employee wage would have been, but it was substantial. And that doesn't even factor in all the construction and other peripheral jobs that would be required just getting everything set.

Ol' "Secretariat" really screwed the pooch on that one. If it wasn't for that rack, everyone would know she's an idiot.

The fact that after the second Trump term, SHE is gonna be the next President is incredibly depressing. And anyone who thinks she won't be is a fool. The media is grooming her just like they groomed Obama. She gets more headlines than the President, dozens of them every single day, and she's literally a nobody. A nobody with a tenuous grasp of reality and a big, fat mouth.

She just got caught lying about where she actually lives (she's hardly ever been seen at the Bronx address she claims to have resided at, only showing up there a couple times a year going back several years), she got caught trying to funnel government money to her boyfriend by fake-putting him on the payroll... nobody cares. She's bulletproof. She never misses a chance to cry out, "Y'know what we need? Free sh*t!", so she's a goddess. :roll: She can't do basic math, and she's a horrible, proven liar, but she has an awesome rack and knows how to tell people exactly what they wanna hear.

She's Next. Hopefully Climate Change kills us all by then.

BartAllen

02-25-2019, 06:14 AM

And 25,000 was a lowball number. Some sources say it could have been double. I forget what the average employee wage would have been, but it was substantial. And that doesn't even factor in all the construction and other peripheral jobs that would be required just getting everything set.

Ol' "Secretariat" really screwed the pooch on that one. If it wasn't for that rack, everyone would know she's an idiot.

The fact that after the second Trump term, SHE is gonna be the next President is incredibly depressing.

I won't speak to AOC as a person. I don't think that helps anything; However, I will talk about her... interesting monetary policies.

I could be wrong, but I thought I read that the average hourly salary for some of the blue collars would've been something like 20 dollars an hour. Is that the greatest? No, but it's a whole lot better than the deal AOC has worked out for New Yorkers. She's worked out a deal that will give New Yorkers ZERO dollars an hour.

To be fair, there are a number of socially progressive policies that have been enacted in the US that do work. I would never deny that, but what Ocasio-Cortez is doing is going to cause far more harm than good.

Her ideals are seem to be in the right place. She wants to give everyone equal footing. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I just think the way she wants to go about doing it is going to harm the United States over time.

Leo656

02-25-2019, 06:16 AM

I edited.

She's an idiot.

Voltron

02-25-2019, 06:23 AM

Let's stay on topic, please.

She is an idiot.

I wouldn't mind making $52,000 and working with a trained bar tender.

BartAllen

02-25-2019, 06:26 AM

Unfortunately, both sides have... less than savory people that like to do stupid things.

This is just another example of someone with Trump Derangement Syndrome.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/conservative-activist-assaulted-at-uc-berkeley-campus-during-recruitment-drive

Thankfully, the Conservative didn't drop the level of the imbecile that attacked him.

Voltron

02-25-2019, 06:30 AM

The fact that after the second Trump term, SHE is gonna be the next President is incredibly depressing. And anyone who thinks she won't be is a fool. The media is grooming her just like they groomed Obama. She gets more headlines than the President, dozens of them every single day, and she's literally a nobody. A nobody with a tenuous grasp of reality and a big, fat mouth.

Could this not also be said about Trump?

She just got caught lying about where she actually lives (she's hardly ever been seen at the Bronx address she claims to have resided at, only showing up there a couple times a year going back several years), she got caught trying to funnel government money to her boyfriend by fake-putting him on the payroll... nobody cares. She's bulletproof. She never misses a chance to cry out, "Y'know what we need? Free sh*t!", so she's a goddess. :roll: She can't do basic math, and she's a horrible, proven liar, but she has an awesome rack and knows how to tell people exactly what they wanna hear.

Do you have sources for that? Not the rack part, the other stuff.

Leo656

02-25-2019, 06:39 AM

Could this not also be said about Trump?

Do you have sources for that? Not the rack part, the other stuff.

- I don't think all the headlines about Trump in the preceding years count as "grooming". Most of them were "OMG If He Gets Elected The World's Gonna Blow Up".

- Not at present. I've had an extremely lousy few days and I'm not up to Google-Fu at the moment. But it's been all over the place for the last few days, every time I open my phone's News browser. The thing with her boyfriend was last week, I think, but her lying about living in The Bronx is new. Her mother owns the condo and she gets her mail there once every blue moon, but nobody who lives in the area has ever seen her. Of course, she also likes to pretend that she grew up poor while her father was a millionaire (mostly self-made, but still), so... like all politicians, you know she's lying when her lips are moving.

But no, I don't have links. "Multiple Sources". Other things on my mind, sorry.

I wouldn't mind making $52,000 and working with a trained bar tender.

I wouldn't mind if my wife had an aneurysm in her sleep.

I have nothing on-topic to add; it just needed to be said. I'mma go make breakfast and Google how much it costs to hire a hitman who does extremely sloppy work. Catch you guys later.

BartAllen

02-25-2019, 06:39 AM

Here's an article talking about her giving him an email account

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-faces-questions-after-her-boyfriend-gets-congressional-email-account

Right now it's only speculated that he is on the payroll. No direct evidence.

Sumac

02-25-2019, 02:44 PM

"Green New Deal" sounds like a Socialist utopia, which literally impossible to implement.
And we all know (or at least we supposed to know by this point) what happens with Socialist utopias.

And, yes, AOC was caught being bad at math and ****ing up some calculations about taxes, I think.

I really hope she won't be a president.

I don't think of US as a friend or an enemy, which might rise some eyebrows, since I am from Russia and supposedly should be glad if US lose its superpower status. The thing is, that if US tanks it will inevitably cause a chain reaction which will drag the rest of the world with it.

I don't think that Russia will suffer a lot, due to upcoming polit-economical crisis of its own, but I don't want Western civilization being destroyed by cretinous Bolshevik-wannabes, throwing humanity back hundred years by letting, let's just say, less developed cultures, to take it apart.

Instead of bringing progress in the future those idiots might spell the doom for actual progress we had made.

Andrew NDB

02-25-2019, 02:50 PM

"Green New Deal" sounds like a Socialist utopia, which literally impossible to implement.

I'm really glad AOO unveiled that. To the radical left they are very excited and proud of its unveiling (cue the high fives), of course, but to the rest... the sheer lunacy of what the radical left is revealing their endgame is hilarious to the right and further divides the rest of the left who have no choice but to admit that that's all pretty crazy. I think plenty of people on the left had no idea that AOO was that nutty or far out there.

Leo656

02-25-2019, 03:30 PM

Andrew NDB

02-25-2019, 03:38 PM

Has anyone made these kinds of irrational demands of China, or India for that matter? Or as usual, does all blame and responsibility fall to us, while everyone else just does what they wanna do?

I think the general idea is that we're supposed to be the global leader. i.e., the expectation being we adopt the "Green New Deal" and suddenly all of the other countries will do the same.

They won't. Maybe France will, that's it.

Prowler

02-25-2019, 03:54 PM

I love the video where the schoolteacher had brainwashed a group of CHILDREN for the means of ambushing Sen. Feinstein, presenting her with some letter/petition about the "Green New Deal" and becoming crazy indignant and offended when she had the AUDACITY to declare it unfeasible and that there was no way to pay for it. And that it's impossible to turn everything around in ten years or less, anyway, no matter how much people cry and gnash their teeth. "BUT THESE CHILDREN WILL SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR INACTION, SENATOR!!!" :lol:

And then she had the balls to say, "I've been doing this for 30 years, I know what I'm doing," which I applaud. F*ck these armchair activists using little kids as an emotional rallying point. Disgusting.

I'm at work but the video's easy enough to find.

Has anyone made these kinds of irrational demands of China, or India for that matter? Or as usual, does all blame and responsibility fall to us, while everyone else just does what they wanna do?

No idea about India, but China is supposedly gonna be the country that's gonna overtake USA as the number 1 superpower in the world in the near future, so everyone just keeps trying not to piss them off. China has been aggressively investing in both Europe and Africa. They've been buying lots of estate in Europe and companies. Portugal's electricity company is now owned by a Chinese company. And guess what, we now have the most expensive electricity in Europe, HOW WONDERFUL :roll:

No one dares to criticise China for its gazillion human rights violations. And whenever Dalai Lama visits other countries often they don't even recognise his visit. Everyone is scared shitless of China.

Sumac

02-25-2019, 04:45 PM

Prowler

02-25-2019, 04:52 PM

The thing is, I think China is very dependent on the outside world, much more dependent, than people usually think.

In case of economical crisis, China will go belly up, probably even faster than many other countries.

You do make a good point there. Chinas economy is a bubble just like Japan's was back in the 70s-80s. Then their bubble burst and Japan has sorta been in a crisis since 1990. China's bubble won't last forever either. And China and USA both depend on each other economically, so I doubt either side wishes to wage war on each other in the near future.

Voltron

02-25-2019, 05:28 PM

We're all tied to China, whether we like it or not. China going "belly up" is going to send shockwaves through the world economy. It's not like Greece going under. Everyone's going to feel that.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Why everyone is losing their mind of AOC is beyond me. She's a first term representative. If she takes the White House after a single term from that position, she deserves it. Considering the field she'll be up against from the GOP and the Dems.

__________________________________________________ ___________

I looked for the scandals involving AOC. I found some on Fox news amounting to her boyfriend getting an email address and her moving to a new place in the Bronx.

As far as scandals go, these are pretty vanilla. I'm about as outraged as when she was caught doing the Breakfast Club dance.

__________________________________________________ ___________

The Green New Deal can't be voted on. It's not a bill, just a proposal. If you don't like the idea of getting paid more, call your congressmen and tell them so.

__________________________________________________ ___________

I can't wait for rich people and companies to "move" out of the United States. Where do you think they'll go? One of those socialist European hell holes?

Leo656

02-25-2019, 06:12 PM

Why everyone is losing their mind of AOC is beyond me. She's a first term representative. If she takes the White House after a single term from that position, she deserves it. Considering the field she'll be up against from the GOP and the Dems.

__________________________________________________ ___________

I looked for the scandals involving AOC. I found some on Fox news amounting to her boyfriend getting an email address and her moving to a new place in the Bronx.

As far as scandals go, these are pretty vanilla. I'm about as outraged as when she was caught doing the Breakfast Club dance.

She's not who she claims to be, and that should matter. At some point, "They all pull shady sh*t" isn't good enough. Especially when an individual markets herself as "The Alternative", as she has.

She's playing on the emotions of the ignorant while swearing up and down that she's "one of the Regular People". And no, she's not the first. But the buck has to stop SOMEwhere. At some point, we NEED to start holding people accountable for their lies and nonsense. At the very least, we can stop enabling them to fail upwards in life.

The things she proposes are dangerous. She's not qualified to be in such a lofty position. And "Neither is _____!" isn't good enough for me. She's far more dangerous than Trump, because most people are fully aware that Trump is a disingenuous idiot. But people really believe in her, and that is f*cking dangerous as hell.

She's so high on her own sh*t that she's constantly attacking members of her own party, and responding to any and all criticism with "mature" replies like, "I'M the boss, how 'bout that?" :roll: And she's not playing a role, this is just who she is. She's like the Anti-Matter Universe version of Trump, and she lacks the self-awareness to recognize that, which is hilarious.

I think being a bartender was a generous gift for someone of such obvious intelligence and maturity, or lack thereof. That's about the limit of her qualifications, and that's where she should have stayed.

Voltron

02-25-2019, 07:23 PM

She's not who she claims to be, and that should matter. At some point, "They all pull shady sh*t" isn't good enough. Especially when an individual markets herself as "The Alternative", as she has.

She's playing on the emotions of the ignorant while swearing up and down that she's "one of the Regular People". And no, she's not the first. But the buck has to stop SOMEwhere. At some point, we NEED to start holding people accountable for their lies and nonsense. At the very least, we can stop enabling them to fail upwards in life.

The things she proposes are dangerous. She's not qualified to be in such a lofty position. And "Neither is _____!" isn't good enough for me. She's far more dangerous than Trump, because most people are fully aware that Trump is a disingenuous idiot. But people really believe in her, and that is f*cking dangerous as hell.

She's so high on her own sh*t that she's constantly attacking members of her own party, and responding to any and all criticism with "mature" replies like, "I'M the boss, how 'bout that?" :roll: And she's not playing a role, this is just who she is. She's like the Anti-Matter Universe version of Trump, and she lacks the self-awareness to recognize that, which is hilarious.

I think being a bartender was a generous gift for someone of such obvious intelligence and maturity, or lack thereof. That's about the limit of her qualifications, and that's where she should have stayed.

Then it should stop at a higher level. If *this* is what's triggering you, then there's way worse going on elsewhere.

Frankly, I'm thrilled she's out there. The fact that people are losing their minds over a person simply suggesting things is pretty deranged. . .

It's satisfying to hear people call the Left deranged at the mention of Trump, then go nuts at the mention of AOC.

And again, if you don't have any evidence to prove your claims, then what's the problem? I could just as easily say she's not just from the Bronx, but she's the Bronxiest Bronx citizen that ever Bronxed. If there's nothing to base our claims on, then why even discuss them?

She also graduated cum laude with a degree in international relations and economics. So she's got some qualifications. Last time I checked, being a bar tender didn't reflect that poorly on a person's character. If you want to argue that a person's job experience is directly related their political viability, then should any of us be talking at all? Any and all certified Constitutional Scholars, please raise your hand.

Besides, it's not like she's hired convicted felons and is currently under investigation by numerous agencies for numerous infractions including everything you've claimed AOC is guilty of.

Let's cure the stage 4 cancer before we focus on the mild indigestion.

Leo656

02-25-2019, 07:37 PM

Voltron

02-25-2019, 10:58 PM

It's a little late to stop Trump or any of his constituents. They're in, they're doing whatever, we're gonna be cleaning up after them for years. We all should've known better, but it is what it is, now. I'm still firmly convinced that Hillary would have been worse, and that's she's secretly a FAR worse person in real life than the cartoon character Trump plays on TV.

[QUOTE]We CAN start calling "bullsh*t" when we see it on the rise from someone else, though.

vs.

They're in, they're doing whatever, we're gonna be cleaning up after them for years.

You're arguing against yourself, now.

Again, "They all do it" is something I've often said myself, but at the same time, if we're not gonna just jack off, we need to draw the line someplace.

This is a bitter pill we need to digest.

1. Drawing a line is a long, slow process that takes a *lot* of litigation. Look at the Trump investigations. Both sides of the issue feel it's gone on too long, but for totally different reasons. One side wants him in jail NOW, and the other wants him exonerated.

2. By remaining silent, we set dangerous precedents. If it's an issue of what's fair, then we all need to play by the same rules. We need to stop and insist that everyone, ourselves included, be held to the exact same standards.

Currently, Trump has called a national emergency to build a wall on the border. He then went off and golfed, demonstrating the severity of the emergency.

While it isn't necessarily illegal, it's been stated by a number of conservative media outlets that it opens the door for liberal politicians to do the same thing.

And that's looking to be more and more the case as the GOP has consistently blocked any kind of compromise or outright legislation brought up by anyone, including themselves.

If we don't stop the major players from running ram shot over convention, then it's going to come back and bite us square in the ass.

A number of you have expressed concern over the "Green New Deal". The most relevant argument I can find against it is: it's financially prohibitive. Even if we could pay for it all, there'd be no way to do it in time AND remain competitive on the world stage.

That's an excellent point.

But now that we're making it ok to not listen to Congress, then the growing liberal movement in the Democratic party is being handed the authority to circumvent Congress and establish the Green New Deal without any representation on part of the people.

And that's wrong. Because whether or not anyone agrees with it is beyond the point. The point is that we, the people, need to have our voices heard. Even if we're making a stupid decision. Even if we're misinformed and absolutely NEED a wall on BOTH borders.

There's so many problems that you're turning a blind eye to that we really need to work together on. Every time someone brings up a legitimate issue that even seemingly skew left, the general response here is to dismiss it without consideration.

It appears there's been outside influence in our elections.
-"Who cares?!"

Donald Trump is under investigation for numerous felonies.
-"So what?"

The GOP just committed actual voter fraud in North Carolina.
-(crickets)

Did you hear the Trump family are no longer allowed to oversee their own charity?
-"Haha. More deranged liberal bull crap!"

Someone wants to raise the minimum wage and tax businesses.
-"She's just a big boobed bimbo who HAS TO BE STOPPED!"

Again, if you're worried that a newcomer lied about her address, there's bigger problems that, while they seem quaint now, are going to be a serious issue for you later.

And if you want people to take your concerns seriously, then ignoring everyone else's problems isn't going to give you decent ground to stand on.

"Nobody who's a proven liar or can't do simple math should hold a position of political power." If someone's willing to stand on their head to tell a lie over little things, then what kind of BIG things are they gonna lie about?

The problem here is that this already happened, and nothing was said. We're already opening Pandora's Box. Trump being impeached is the only chance to close it, since he's been doing this.

You want to send a message? That's how it's done.

Again, chalk it up to my compulsive disgust for liars in general. And as I've said before, all of this is why I don't vote. To me, there are NO "small" or "inconsequential" lies. That may be an extreme position in some peoples' eyes, but from where I sit, openly insulting the intelligence of people makes one a Very Bad Person.

If you don't vote, then you've already thrown away your voice.

Leo656

02-25-2019, 11:45 PM

Vote for who? Proven liars, brigands and thieves? Absolutely not. They don't represent me and I refuse to endorse a single one of them. However, I still have the right to observe and report, as do we all.

Please don't misread my point: It's far, FAR too late to do anything about Trump, or Hillary, or Obama, or Bush, or Slick Willy. Once they're in The Big Chair, you'd have an easier time getting toothpaste back in the tube that removing any of them from a position of power. "Impeachment" is a word people love to throw around as if it's ever really worked the way everyone expects it to. The entire system is designed to protect these people from the consequences of their own actions. Nobody's getting impeached, and nobody's going to jail. Not the Top Brass. Maybe a few flunkies, but that's what they're there for, to take the bullets so people like Trump and Willy don't have to.

BUT. We can do more, starting now, to ensure that people are held accountable going forward and those who are obviously unfit to wield power are kept far away from it. That means removing the idea that there are "small lies", or that some lies are acceptable. They're not.

We especially can't be having such horse sh*t coming from the horse-mouth of someone who openly espouses "transparency in government!" like nobody's ever heard THAT one before.

My attitude of "So what?" regarding other political scumbags is, it's already over and done, people could have stepped in or spoken up, but it's too late now. You folks got worked, and that's too bad, but if we're not going to learn anything and then apply those lessons in the future when the latest snake-oil salesman shows up... well, then yeah, "So what" indeed. People need to sh*t or get off the pot, at some point.

AOC is important because she's the latest pretty face, disguising a brain made of oatmeal, and she's not "just" talking about taxing this or raising that, she's proposing things that, if executed to their endgame, would destabilize the entire global economy. And what's her response when even people in her own party confront her with the black & white truth that nothing she says makes any sense? "Like, y'know, like... whateverrrrrrr!" Her disdain for Trump amazes me, because they're the same: Vapid, Twitter-obsessed celebutards who are playing a straight con on billions of people. But again, you would THINK we would have learned something from recent history.

She's dangerous because people believe her sh*t. And I said the same thing about Obama: If anyone truly thinks he or she is a "pure soul", "doin' it for the people", they're a crayon-gobbling fool. He turned out to be Just Another Scumbag Politician, as I predicted. But her... I get the feeling that she actually believes the nonsense she says, whereas with Obama, it was very obviously all spin. The fact that she's so incredibly immature, vapid, and dishonest makes her far more dangerous than he was.

We can't change the past. I'm beyond caring about what Trump does, because he never should have been in the race (and neither should Hillary, but that's another rant). "We The People" let sh*t get this far out of hand, and no, I don't feel any sympathy, because people have to reap what they sow in this world. BUT. We can decide, collectively, starting NOW, that we're not gonna fall for another idiot with a pretty song and dance. We can decide, "We Won't Get Fooled Again".

But see, that's too complicated for most people, who insist that the game's already lost, so hold your nose and pick one piece of sh*t over the other piece of sh*t, otherwise your voice is "lost". Nonsense. If I vote for Trump, I'm responsible by proxy for his actions. Same for Cortez or anyone else. I accept neither credit NOT blame for other people's actions, period. And I also refuse to ever enable the bad behavior of others.

But observing, reporting, and debating are no crimes. We all have a voice, and we should all use it. But I, personally, will never join the chorus with ANYONE who goes to work wearing a suit. That's positive ID as "Enemy Of The People". Same goes for a badge. Anyone who sets a Life Goal for themselves of, "I wish to rule over others" is a piece of sh*t. I'll call them out on their bullsh*t but I otherwise I won't have anything to do with them, and I definitely won't endorse them. That's called "integrity", something none of them have or would ever understand.
---------------

I'll give AOC credit for one thing, though: She recently implied it was irresponsible for anyone to have kids in the current situation, and I'll agree with that 1000%. I've been saying it since she was in diapers. Adding another hungry mouth to the zoo when there's so many people struggling to survive already is incredibly selfish and irresponsible. So, points for that. But it doesn't take a genius intellect to reach that conclusion, it merely takes two eyes and common sense. So I can't get excited that she finally said ONE thing that's fairly sensible. As Snipes said, "The sun even shines on a dog's ass, some days." She never shuts up, she was bound to say something true-ish sooner or later. That's just math.
--------------

I'm not saying anyone should "keep silent", not at all. Rather, we need to ACTUALLY care, and stick to our principles. NOT selectively apply them when we happen to agree with one side over the other, or one empty suit over another. As I've said many times, picking any side other than Your Own Side is step one towards failure, because NONE of these people care about you. So we shouldn't be getting emotionally invested in them, or whether they're Red or Blue. We can't have blinders on about the nonsense coming from "our" side. We shouldn't even be PICKING sides, it's a joke, a diversionary tactic, a carny hustle. We need to be more on the ball than this, and we need to actually apply the same standards for "Our Side" as we do the "Other Side". Because ain't NOBODY doing that, now or ever. But they should.

"Well, these people tell the lies I wanna hear, so I support them." Well, that's great, lube up and bend over.
------------------

I think where you and I fundamentally differ isn't so much politically. It seems like you believe things can or will improve, whereas I truly don't have anywhere near that much faith in humanity. People talk big, but they're ass about the follow-through.

It's like Carlin said: "If you have nothing but selfish, ignorant people, you're gonna have selfish, ignorant leaders. This is what The System produces: Garbage In, Garbage Out."

I can only call what I see. And that's what I see.

Voltron

02-26-2019, 12:07 AM

Obama was a lot of things. He wasn't a scum bag.

I was not a fan of his:

Increased use of drone strikes.
Attack on Syria.
Push for the TPP. (I thank Trump for pulling us out)
His reluctance to seek consequences for the bankers responsible for the 2008 collapse.
Didn't do anything about Gitmo like he promised.

And a slew of other things.

None of those are exactly "scum bag" territory. Especially since the worst anyone on the Right ever got to stick was "he wore a tan suit" and "he saluted a marine while holding a coffee cup".

I'd go so far as to say that the drone strikes killed a great number of innocent people, which I'm sure radicalized a whole slew of new enemy combatants. That's pretty scumbaggy.

There's a saying along the lines of "Perfection is the Enemy of Good." It means that if we're going to throw away everything that isn't 100% what we want, we're not going to get anything.

I'm willing to take Trump's administration if it produces good things. It's in everyone's best interest that he succeeds. I can find some good stuff in there, even. And I can do so for any political figure laid before me.

The problem I have is when the bad grossly outweighs the good. Currently, there's plenty of things that should be raising eyebrows about a lot of congressional members. AOC is not one of them. Mostly because she hasn't even been in office long enough to do anything of concern.

And if her rhetoric and policies are what worry you, then there has to be some concessions from the Right. She's a product of an angry working class who are struggling to survive. If it sounds ill advised and "dangerous" to demand what she's demanding, it's just the start.

It was just reported that Amazon is paying $0 in taxes after taking in billions in profit. Trump bragged about using loopholes to get out of paying his. How much are you going to pay this year?

AOC? Sanders? They're just the beginning. We've got an entire generation of people who are mad as hell at what they perceive as a lop sided system that shackles people to poverty.

You've heard grumblings of weird, scary, socialist ideas like universal health care, college subsidies, loan forgiveness, and universal basic income. They may sound highfalutin, but they aren't going to die out. People are going to wonder why some people have a veritable fleet of yachts while others can't feed their kids.

I would also caution against underestimating some people. Trump has zero knowledge of the political process, but he's a formidable opponent in an election. If you're going to disparage a person who just won an election for being short on intelligence, it may spell disappointment or even disaster in the near future.

We can't change the past. I'm beyond caring about what Trump does, because he never should have been in the race (and neither should Hillary, but that's another rant). "We The People" let sh*t get this far out of hand, and no, I don't feel any sympathy, because people have to reap what they sow in this world.

Ultimately, I'm not quite sure what your world view is. You've stated a number of times that you're not particularly interested in the welfare of the general population. At the same time, you seem pretty up in arms about things.

Leo656

02-26-2019, 12:56 AM

"Greek Chorus", maybe? Social commentary? I'm not always sure myself. Generally nihilistic with a tiny sliver of half-hearted optimism? I know I have solutions for many of the problems we face as a society, but I also know that most people would reject them out of hand for being "mean".

I'll say one thing for certain: I don't value the rights of people who don't or won't work over people who do. And I don't believe that anyone else has the right to stick their hand in my pocket because they want what I've worked for. If people want those yachts, let them go to school, apply a little elbow grease, and earn them the way the people they're so envious of did. That's the only proven solution for what ails them. "Try Harder".

I've been broke, poor, and homeless more than probably anyone in this "room". Ostensibly, I'm one of the people who should be doing jumping jacks for Socialism and all the "free sh*t" it promises, but I reject it out of hand. Because I've been through "The System", I've seen how these programs work, and the truth is, they don't. "The Government" simply can NOT provide a house, a job, an education, and comprehensive medical care to anyone who asks for it. And they still won't be able to if they raise taxes sky-high; you just end up with more people begging for services, and fewer people working to provide those services - like doctors - because they won't be getting paid. Doctors have already been leaving the medical profession in droves over the last 10+ years because they're sick of dealing with the insurance companies, and most people don't take MedicAid and MediCare. "We get nothing back." People don't go to school for ten years and amass those aforementioned piles of debt out of the goodness of their heart; it's because the promised payoff is a six or seven-figure income later on. Adding millions more people to an over-burdened system is asking for disaster.

Anyway. It was all many years ago, but I've been to Homeless Assistance. "Try Harder". I've applied for welfare/food stamps. "Try harder". My father, my sister, and other people in my family, homeless and living in the car with their kids, OR, sick and dying, waiting to get approved for Disability. "Try Harder". "The System" doesn't WORK. And I fail to see how it'll be improved by taxing everyone into poverty, and capping what other people are "allowed" to earn.

My life was sh*t from birth. The only thing that finally improved it was, I went to night school, got a certificate, and got a better job. Am I getting rich? Not hardly, but I'm a lot better off than I was. The lesson of this story is, you can be "in need" as f*ck, but that won't give you the pat on the ass you think you need or deserve. There's only ONE guaranteed way to improve your station in life: "Try Harder". Social welfare programs are supposed to be a safety net, not a life raft. If we start having the government cut everyone a check just for breathing, then NOBODY has any reason at all to go out and earn or achieve anything.

I don't know exactly what my larger "world view" is either, and it'll probably take a lifetime of introspection to come up with an answer. But I know some things for certain:
- I don't believe human life has any intrinsic default value whatsoever
- I believe every individual's life has whatever value they earn and not a drop more
- I believe that people who work hard and contribute have greater societal value than people who do nothing
- I believe that people who work for what they have deserve to keep as much of it as they want, and they don't automatically owe their neighbor anything just because they weren't as fortunate. Nobody owes anybody anything. If you want, go earn.

Our society may be demonized by some for the amount of millionaires and billionaires we produce, but all that means is that our method really is The Best one. No place else in the world allows anyone to go from Zero to Hero, to the degree that people can here, and it never happens as often as it does here, either. No, statistically not everyone will finish the game in First Place, but they'll still be much better off for trying than if they stayed at home doing nothing, waiting for the government to cut them a check.

What makes America great is that the sky truly is the limit, if you apply yourself. And that's the truth. I know plenty of people who went from being on the streets to doing way better than I am, and good for them. If people are truly dissatisfied with their crummy hand, they can rely on Sacrifice and Hard Work like everyone they think is ahead of them. That's fair. "You have more than I do, give me half your sh*t" isn't fair. It'll never be fair. "We're all only allowed to have about $35,000 in assets per year, because then at least everyone has The Same" isn't fair. So everyone being impoverished is okay, because it's "equal", so long as nobody has any reason to be jealous of anyone else? I'm far more comfortable with the idea that if I make the necessary sacrifices, I too can have that fleet of yachts. And so can you, my friend.

See, that's where that sliver of optimism comes from: The knowledge that the only thing holding anyone back from their potential is how much fire they have in their belly, and where they apply it. Too many people apply it to political circle-jerking when they ought'a be taking a class and working to improve their station, NOT demanding someone do it for them.
------------------------------

I do think college and student loan debt is a total bullsh*t scam, though. It's all just to keep the feeder lines to the NBA and NFL open; those stadiums and the perks for student athletes are 100% of why college is so expensive, and that needs to stop. It's my sincere hope, now that The Internet has become such a huge part of our lives, that the idea you can hide Education behind a giant paywall will eventually be done away with. In theory, I can click a few buttons and, in time, become just as educated as anyone with a Master's, but I won't have a little piece of paper to acknowledge it. And frankly, that's nonsense; you know what you know, piece of paper be damned.

It might take a few more decades - because where ELSE are the spoiled millionaire athletes of tomorrow going to come from, if not our college campuses? - but I do feel that The Internet is going to dramatically change the infrastructure of our education system. People swear they shouldn't have to pay for music, because "art should be free". Well, so should knowledge.

So yeah, that sh*t's gotta change. I'm with you on that.
----------

Anyways, good chat pally. I say none of this with the expectation of changing anyone's mind, simply calling things as I see them. Love you brother.

Voltron

02-26-2019, 04:14 AM

"Greek Chorus", maybe? Social commentary? I'm not always sure myself. Generally nihilistic with a tiny sliver of half-hearted optimism? I know I have solutions for many of the problems we face as a society, but I also know that most people would reject them out of hand for being "mean".

Got it. I’ve felt that before.

I'll say one thing for certain: I don't value the rights of people who don't or won't work over people who do. And I don't believe that anyone else has the right to stick their hand in my pocket because they want what I've worked for. If people want those yachts, let them go to school, apply a little elbow grease, and earn them the way the people they're so envious of did. That's the only proven solution for what ails them. "Try Harder".

I wouldn’t stand with anyone who argued that either. Obviously, something for nothing isn’t going to fly. And it’s not like those weasels aren’t out there. I’ve had the pleasure of being friends with a LOT of police and fire-rescue in my life. I’ve also been a teacher for a little over a decade. I’ve heard stories AND I’ve met them.

We’re on the same page in that regard.

I've been broke, poor, and homeless more than probably anyone in this "room".

You’re in good company. I know I haven’t been as down and out, but I’ve spent many a cold night sleeping in my car. Got caught on corpse check by the cops one night. I didn’t even know they did that.

Ostensibly, I'm one of the people who should be doing jumping jacks for Socialism and all the "free sh*t" it promises, but I reject it out of hand. Because I've been through "The System", I've seen how these programs work, and the truth is, they don't. "The Government" simply can NOT provide a house, a job, an education, and comprehensive medical care to anyone who asks for it. And they still won't be able to if they raise taxes sky-high; you just end up with more people begging for services, and fewer people working to provide those services - like doctors - because they won't be getting paid. Doctors have already been leaving the medical profession in droves over the last 10+ years because they're sick of dealing with the insurance companies, and most people don't take MedicAid and MediCare.

And this is an EXCELLENT point that gives me serious pause about the whole thing. Who wants all the help of a government ration with all the joy of dealing with the DMV?

"We get nothing back." People don't go to school for ten years and amass those aforementioned piles of debt out of the goodness of their heart; it's because the promised payoff is a six or seven-figure income later on. Adding millions more people to an over-burdened system is asking for disaster.

Anyway. It was all many years ago, but I've been to Homeless Assistance. "Try Harder". I've applied for welfare/food stamps. "Try harder". My father, my sister, and other people in my family, homeless and living in the car with their kids, OR, sick and dying, waiting to get approved for Disability. "Try Harder". "The System" doesn't WORK.

Fair point. I really have nothing to say about that.

And I fail to see how it'll be improved by taxing everyone into poverty, and capping what other people are "allowed" to earn.

That’s not really the argument being made from that side. The argument is that, at some point, you have to leave something for someone else. I can see how that seems inherently unfair.

My life was sh*t from birth. The only thing that finally improved it was, I went to night school, got a certificate, and got a better job. Am I getting rich? Not hardly, but I'm a lot better off than I was. The lesson of this story is, you can be "in need" as f*ck, but that won't give you the pat on the ass you think you need or deserve. There's only ONE guaranteed way to improve your station in life: "Try Harder".

So you did it the right way. There’s no end to the frustration of watching others benefit from doing nothing. I understand that.

Social welfare programs are supposed to be a safety net, not a life raft. If we start having the government cut everyone a check just for breathing, then NOBODY has any reason at all to go out and earn or achieve anything.

Social as in socialism, though. And that’s where the issue comes in. They aren’t great, but it isn’t like they aren’t useful to those who use them properly.

- I believe that people who work for what they have deserve to keep as much of it as they want, and they don't automatically owe their neighbor anything just because they weren't as fortunate. Nobody owes anybody anything. If you want, go earn.

There’s a problem for me here. Because the wages and opportunities aren’t there. If I start a company and sit in an office telling people what they do, do I have a right to keep a majority of the profits while other people are breaking their backs to make them?

And I ask that seriously. Do you work harder than your boss? SHOULD you be making more than him?

Our society may be demonized by some for the amount of millionaires and billionaires we produce, but all that means is that our method really is The Best one.

It’s not demonized for the billionaires it produces, it’s demonized for the way we treat the impoverished. It’s easy to blame poor people for their station in life, and sometimes it’s not wrong. But we have entire towns without drinking water. And it’s not like the residents are working to restore that. They just don’t have the means to do so. And that’s a problem.

No place else in the world allows anyone to go from Zero to Hero, to the degree that people can here, and it never happens as often as it does here, either. No, statistically not everyone will finish the game in First Place, but they'll still be much better off for trying than if they stayed at home doing nothing, waiting for the government to cut them a check.

I can get behind that, yeah.

What makes America great is that the sky truly is the limit, if you apply yourself. And that's the truth. I know plenty of people who went from being on the streets to doing way better than I am, and good for them. If people are truly dissatisfied with their crummy hand, they can rely on Sacrifice and Hard Work like everyone they think is ahead of them. That's fair. "You have more than I do, give me half your sh*t" isn't fair. It'll never be fair. "We're all only allowed to have about $35,000 in assets per year, because then at least everyone has The Same" isn't fair. So everyone being impoverished is okay, because it's "equal", so long as nobody has any reason to be jealous of anyone else? I'm far more comfortable with the idea that if I make the necessary sacrifices, I too can have that fleet of yachts. And so can you, my friend.

I don’t think that argument is being made. The idea here is that if WE, the blue collar stiffs are coughing up taxes, then so should the millionaires and billionaires.

Seriously, they’re throwing around phrases like “too big to fail” and “too big to jail”. It should never get to the point where someone is beyond the capacity for failure or above the law. That’s a limit I can live with. I don’t feel like having to deal with Comcast for my cable without any alternative. I don’t want to have to go through Disney for ALL of my entertainment. I don’t want to go through Hasbro for ALL my toys.

No one should have that amount of control over our lives. Success is one thing. Control over my choices in life is quite another. Especially when Comcast is fighting to make public utilities its own private domain. They can go to hell.

See, that's where that sliver of optimism comes from: The knowledge that the only thing holding anyone back from their potential is how much fire they have in their belly, and where they apply it. Too many people apply it to political circle-jerking when they ought'a be taking a class and working to improve their station, NOT demanding someone do it for them.
------------------------------

I do think college and student loan debt is a total bullsh*t scam, though. It's all just to keep the feeder lines to the NBA and NFL open; those stadiums and the perks for student athletes are 100% of why college is so expensive, and that needs to stop. It's my sincere hope, now that The Internet has become such a huge part of our lives, that the idea you can hide Education behind a giant paywall will eventually be done away with. In theory, I can click a few buttons and, in time, become just as educated as anyone with a Master's, but I won't have a little piece of paper to acknowledge it. And frankly, that's nonsense; you know what you know, piece of paper be damned.

It might take a few more decades - because where ELSE are the spoiled millionaire athletes of tomorrow going to come from,
I dunno, man. Those 30 for 30 shows are pretty good at making me feel good about my financial decisions in life. :lol:

but I do feel that The Internet is going to dramatically change the infrastructure of our education system. People swear they shouldn't have to pay for music, because "art should be free". Well, so should knowledge.

Knowledge is free. It’s the damn certification that costs an arm and a leg.

So yeah, that sh*t's gotta change. I'm with you on that.
----------

Anyways, good chat pally. I say none of this with the expectation of changing anyone's mind, simply calling things as I see them. Love you brother.

Right back at ya.

Refractive Reflections

03-08-2019, 01:41 AM

Why everyone is losing their mind of AOC is beyond me. She's a first term representative. If she takes the White House after a single term from that position, she deserves it. Considering the field she'll be up against from the GOP and the Dems.

You have got to be trolling here. Deserves it, how? Just because she makes flowery, utopia ideals which have no basis in financial feasibility?

ye_Ny5oZqWU

I can't wait for rich people and companies to "move" out of the United States. Where do you think they'll go? One of those socialist European hell holes?

I don’t think that argument is being made. The idea here is That if WE, the blue collar stiffs are coughing up taxes, then so should the millionaires and billionaires.

Say goodbye to your job as well (if you live in the United States) when they take their businesses also. In addition to the $15/hr wage hurting the job market, by hurting small businesses and big businesses trying to find ways of using robot labor than human labor:
https://dailycaller.com/2016/04/26/15-minimum-wage-sends-california-businesses-fleeing/
https://dailycaller.com/2019/01/08/new-york-city-minimum-wage/
https://dailycaller.com/2018/01/10/jack-in-the-box-ceo-we-may-replace-workers-with-robots-because-of-15-minimum-wage-campaign/

Voltron

03-08-2019, 06:11 AM

You have got to be trolling here. Deserves it, how? Just because she makes flowery, utopia ideals which have no basis in financial feasibility?

Because that's a really difficult thing to do. . . ?

Also, how is that any different from what we have now? We're just switching one financially unaware ideologue for another.

Say goodbye to your job as well (if you live in the United States) when they take their businesses also. In addition to the $15/hr wage hurting the job market, by hurting small businesses and big businesses trying to find ways of using robot labor than human labor:

Ok. I mean, the small businesses are already dying. And since nihilism and laissez faire business practices are all the rage, why not just let them die? Isn't it the will of the market?

Also, I'd respect your argument a lot more if you didn't post some far right asshole giggling like a school girl, as though there's no reason to discuss a proposal.

Mark Dice truly believes there's some kind of liberal conspiracy trying to downplay how successful he is.

i2SrJG1N_7

:roll:

Refractive Reflections

03-18-2019, 04:18 PM

Because that's a really difficult thing to do. . . ?

Also, how is that any different from what we have now? We're just switching one financially unaware ideologue for another.

Well, we're not floundering in poverty like the socialism of Venezuela, there's one difference there.

And we're having record low unemployment and a good economy which apparently Obama couldn't figure out, then again, no one would believe that based on the MSM narrative of course.
DuhXkCF-L2E

Ok. I mean, the small businesses are already dying. And since nihilism and laissez faire business practices are all the rage, why not just let them die? Isn't it the will of the market?

Also, I'd respect your argument a lot more if you didn't post some far right asshole giggling like a school girl, as though there's no reason to discuss a proposal.

Mark Dice truly believes there's some kind of liberal conspiracy trying to downplay how successful he is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2SrJG1N_7

:roll:

You're probably confusing capitalism with corporatocracy.

I placed Dice's clip there to summarize how ridiculous AOC's Green Plan is (i.e. how cow farts are contributing to global warming, welfare for "unwilling" workers (https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/07/ocasio-cortez-green-new-deal-release/)), because all these environmental restrictions will actually be hurting the poor and cause mass starvation as distribution of foods and goods will be extremely high. At least Mark Dice posts clips and screenshots of sources (which usually are from the liberal/leftist mouths themselves) with his video clips. If he laughs, maybe it's just so hysterically out of touch AOC really is, such as AOC saying right out of her mouth that the agenda would provide racial justice.

Then she mysterious removes the "Green Deal" after she was mocked:
https://joeforamerica.com/2019/02/green-new-deal-document-mysteriously-disappears-from-ocasio-cortezs-website-after-being-mocked/

Besides if AOC believes the environment is in such peril, why is she not implementing environmentally-friendly practices into her own life?
https://nypost.com/2019/03/02/gas-guzzling-car-rides-expose-aocs-hypocrisy-amid-green-new-deal-pledge/
qWA9gSqY7bI

She wants to lecture the rest of us about how to live, but lives hypocritically as with the Democrats with their armed guards (in wanting gun control), and walled in communities/homes for security (in stating walls/barriers will provide no protection to the United States).

...But I can see how socialism would be seductive to some millennials on the surface:
https://grrrgraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/siren_song_of_socialism-blood-1024x745.jpg