Looking back, was it a good idea to make April and Casey as teenagers?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

What do you think?

While I don't think that these versions of April and Casey are the best versions, and I'd much prefer them written as adults, I don't think that writing them as teenagers was a bad idea and I quite like the unique take on them.

I do think they were much better written as teenagers earlier on though, before April's psychic powers were touched upon and Casey Jones showed much more promise.

[Leo656]

Nah. Seemed pointless outside of "shipping" April with Donnie, which was a bad idea all around and executed poorly.

I feel that a change that drastic should justify itself, and I don't feel that it did.

[Utrommaniac]

I'm going to go with "no".


Agreeing with the aspect on it being pure shipbait for the first part, but then the rest of it comes down to shifting the turtle-April relationship too much. Same with Casey.

Now, I stand by 2012 Casey being a pretty garbage character as a whole, but as teenagers (with superpowers that the Kraang/Utroms didn't have even though April was supposedly half Kraang/Utrom) they were denied quite a bit of character growth that would have made more sense with them as adult characters. Maybe even for the turtles too.

[Leo656]

It felt to me like they fell in love with the idea and decided to run with it before they actually had any idea for how it would pay off in any meaningful way. And then they just didn't bother trying to come up with one, and it became "Change For Change's Sake" when it could have actually had a point.

[Utrommaniac]

"Changes for the sake of change with no meaningful payoff, but could have had a point"

A perfect description for every aspect of the 2012 show.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I didn't love it a whole lot. :lol:

[CyberCubed]

It was an excellent idea for this universe because the Turtles were written as actual 15 year olds and looked younger, rather than in every other universe where they act and look like 20-25 year olds when they're supposed to be only 15 at the start of the story.

Plus whenever you make April older you have the problem of how to give her a full time job but have her involved with the TMNT's adventures. Obviously the original cartoon came up with the reporter angle to keep her involved in danger, but in every other universe they generally have trouble keeping April involved with the Turtles besides making her a "tech geek" and even then she just becomes a female Donatello anyway. Or just a love interest for Casey.

[newfan]

I liked that they tried it and had the turtle's friends be in their age group for a change, so a yes for me in relation to this show.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I also forgot to mention Karai.

I thought she was handled much better as a teenager than the other version of Karai whom Is more similar to her (2003).

[Andrew NDB]

It was an excellent idea for this universe because the Turtles were written as actual 15 year olds

Except they should never be that, really. Since whenever someone says that, they actually mean "written as human 15 year-olds." And that's always seemed dumb to me.

Because they're pretty freaking far from that. They aren't part of our society or have had remotely equivalent upbringings. It'd be like watching a reality show about indigenous people on some island cut off from the world... and being upset that the teenagers there aren't acting like your average teenagers at Sweet Valley High down the street.

For the thread topic I vote no. April only appears to have been made a teenager so that Donatello could gawk at her, which seems a pretty big perversion of the intent of the April O'Neil character and her relation to the Turtles themselves (at first a den mother, then an older sister). And Casey was only de-aged to follow suit, and create some kind of love triangle.

[newfan]

I also forgot to mention Karai.

I thought she was handled much better as a teenager than the other version of Karai whom Is more similar to her (2003).

Obviously I'm happy with this character and the angle worked for me but to be fair by the end of the show she could have been a teen or a very young adult in her role.
Being a teen will have an impact on the roles, however, a lot of weather or not we liked them as a whole isn't just about how old they are. Some of the issues I see on here are more about what was done with the character.

[Andrew NDB]

I'd have had zero problem with Karai if her name had been "Pimiko."

It's pretty offensive to the source material to take a character that had zero familial connection to Yoshi and Saki (and conversely was Saki's boss) and make her a daughter to them BOTH.

[Sumac]

I kind of ambivalent to this idea.

It was new take on the characters and the story, which I always approve (yes, I do love "change for the sake of change"), but I didn't feel it was executed very well. April was not a very interesting character in the show and Casey was even less than that.

[The Great Saiyaman]

I'll start off with an exchange between Leonardo and Splinter from the recent Teenage mutant ninja Turtles comic book series "Desperate Measures" in which the former vents his frustration about having to deal with a team consisting of teenagers.

Leonardo: It's just - There's so many bad things going on and ALL they want to do argue with each other and goof around. I TRY to get them to focus, to take all of this seriously and they just BLOW ME OFF at every turn. Raph wants to HUNKER DOWN, Mikey wants to be a SUPERHERO and Donnie's got his HEAD BURIED in his gadgets 24/7. They're driving me CRAZY!
As he finishes his rant, Leonardo notices that Splinter is grinning.
Leonardo: It... It's NOT FUNNY Father!
Splinter: I am not laughing my son.
Leonardo: But you're GRINNING!
Splinter: Yes, yes, I AM doing that. Forgive me Leonardo, my amusement is not to be insensitive. I am just happy to know that my Teenaged boys are STILL teenaged boys even when they are away from me.

I can't speak for others but I think having the "Teenage" aspect of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles being the main focus of the 2012 series was a master stroke because as others pointed out, in other versions of the show (The 2003 series, awesome as it was, being the most guilty of this) the turtles weren't behaving like teens.

The skating scene and the sneaking out of the lair when Splinter isn't watching in "I think his name is Baxter Stockman" is one of the best examples of the Turtles behaving like common hoodlum teenage boys.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/5/55/Tmnt_2012_105_0565.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20171129050004
"So you wouldn't object to a little RANDORI?"

The Turtles got their human side from either Splinter or the clerk of the pet store where they were bought, there might have been several humans who touched them before their mutation, which also explains why they all developed into such different personalities.

One thing about boys in their teens is that those are the days when they start to discover the opposite gender, so with an incarnation of the TMNT where they are, well...TEENS, it made good sense to make the main female characters (April, Karai, Renet) teens too.

I must say though that of all the shippings here, Karai and Leonardo was the most natural, the most authentic, that feeling of "I shouldn't be as infatuated with her because I know she's bad news but I AM!" is something we all experienced during our own teen years. As was their bantering, for that matter. If Leonardo is meant to be the oldest brother of the Turtles, Karai was written in as somebody who clearly is older than April, she still has that teenage rebellion going on but with a sense of "I've been around, I know what I'm talking about." kind of deal that teens who are on the edge of seventeen are.

Now take the scene in which Leo tells April about Karai, at first she's "Oh I'm so glad for you." and when he admits that Karai is in the Foot Clan, she slaps him in the face and declares him crazy. Which again is a very authentic teenage thing to do, teen girls can be ruthless about other teen girls after all.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/0/07/S01E14_April_Leo2.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20130218050423
"SHE'S IN THE FOOT CLAN!"

How would that episode have been if April had been in her twenties?

So I have no issue with a Teenage April, okay she wasn't the big sister type she was in previous versions, she also wasn't the LITTLE sister her current counterpart is now.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/0/08/Rise_april.png/revision/latest?cb=20180201091435

[newfan]

So far as how teenage like the TMNT, this could have or may well have had it's own thread in the past?

I mean I agree with Andrew's points that they are not and nor have they lived the lives of a regular human teen. That being said, 'teenage' is in the title, giving it an emphasis, if we don't expect them to have a teen aspect, should it be there? Course going back again to the other side of the argument, it depends what degree of teen was intended? I don't know.
Also what we expect or will accept can depend on the type of version and audience. I mean here though they are still mutants in the sewers who are trained as Ninjas' they are raised a little differently to say Mirage, from what I read/hear, fair to say?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Because they're pretty freaking far from that. They aren't part of our society or have had remotely equivalent upbringings. It'd be like watching a reality show about indigenous people on some island cut off from the world... and being upset that the teenagers there aren't acting like your average teenagers at Sweet Valley High down the street.

The turtles have access to the media. They know about Humans and want to be like regular teenagers. However, Humankind would see them as monsters.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Except they should never be that, really. Since whenever someone says that, they actually mean "written as human 15 year-olds." And that's always seemed dumb to me.

Because they're pretty freaking far from that. They aren't part of our society or have had remotely equivalent upbringings.

Pretty much all of this. Growing up isolated from the rest of the world for 15 years, with maybe the only real sight and knowledge of the surface coming from what they could find in the sewer, they wouldn't act anything like an 'Average' teenager (what even counts as average or normal anymore?) would.

Also, being raised as Ninjas for years (Mirage Comics stated it was 13 years at the beginning, which means they begun training at 2) would add a high level of discipline and a grown up factor.

Realistically, the TMNT wouldn't act like Humans, let alone Teenagers

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Realistically, the TMNT wouldn't act like Humans, let alone Teenagers

But if Splinter starts as Hamato Yoshi, they could definately act like Humans.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Pretty much all of this. Growing up isolated from the rest of the world for 15 years, with maybe the only real sight and knowledge of the surface coming from what they could find in the sewer, they wouldn't act anything like an 'Average' teenager (what even counts as average or normal anymore?) would.

Also, being raised as Ninjas for years (Mirage Comics stated it was 13 years at the beginning, which means they begun training at 2) would add a high level of discipline and a grown up factor.

Realistically, the TMNT wouldn't act like Humans, let alone Teenagers

Well, the ratio of the mutation isn't fity-fifty, it's more 20% of the original DNA and the 80% of the invading species. Which makes that the turtles are more human than they are turtle.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/4/47/Tumblr_inline_oun63tJr9k1u81y09_1280.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20170817011024
The Turtles as infants in "Lone rat and Cubs" showing that they have gotten human body proportions.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/9/94/Tumblr_oun0lyo7xH1vtnrofo1_1280.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20170817014201
The Turtles as little kids in "Lone rat and Cubs" showing more of their humanity, in having the ability to walk upright and the ability to speak, note also that despite their reptile ancestry, none has scaly skin.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/f/f4/226-Leonardo5.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20170202205746
Leonardo in "Invasion" the steam coming from his mouth showing another human trait: he's warm blooded, which is also how Splinter could keep them underground for 15 years, real life Turtles, as do all reptiles need to warm up in the sun in order to stay alive.

And having mentioned Splinter.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tmnt/images/f/f3/LFSplinter199.PNG/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640?cb=20140923135502
Hamato Yoshi's upbringing of the Turtles as if they were just normal human boys makes sense because he was human himself and doesn't know better.

[Candy Kappa]

But if Splinter starts as Hamato Yoshi, they could definately act like Humans.

I agree with this. If Splinter was Hamato Yoshi (Or Lou Jitsu) and/or a loving father, the Turtles would act more akin to human teenagers. Plus they have all sorts of media to influence them.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I probably would like the idea if better executed. But I felt they never did that. April was fine at first but got worse later on and Casey was super annoying. Though to be fair, she's better than Rise April.

Pretty much all of this. Growing up isolated from the rest of the world for 15 years, with maybe the only real sight and knowledge of the surface coming from what they could find in the sewer, they wouldn't act anything like an 'Average' teenager (what even counts as average or normal anymore?) would.

Also, being raised as Ninjas for years (Mirage Comics stated it was 13 years at the beginning, which means they begun training at 2) would add a high level of discipline and a grown up factor.

Realistically, the TMNT wouldn't act like Humans, let alone Teenagers

Except they should never be that, really. Since whenever someone says that, they actually mean "written as human 15 year-olds." And that's always seemed dumb to me.

Because they're pretty freaking far from that. They aren't part of our society or have had remotely equivalent upbringings. It'd be like watching a reality show about indigenous people on some island cut off from the world... and being upset that the teenagers there aren't acting like your average teenagers at Sweet Valley High down the street.

For the thread topic I vote no. April only appears to have been made a teenager so that Donatello could gawk at her, which seems a pretty big perversion of the intent of the April O'Neil character and her relation to the Turtles themselves (at first a den mother, then an older sister). And Casey was only de-aged to follow suit, and create some kind of love triangle.

Pretty much these.

[victory_angel]

The main reason the Nick Producers wanted April as a contemporary was because it would have been weird to have a grown woman hanging out with a bunch of teenagers.


I liked the idea of having April as a teenager, but at the same time aside from having her as a love interest for Donnie they didn't seem to know what to do with her beyond that.

For Donnie's interests in her coming off as creepy, I can forgive that because it was explicitly stated April was the first human girl he has ever met. For the past 15 years before the story began, he has only been exposed to an all-male society. The only exposure to females any of the Turtles would have had would be from TV, Comic books, and magazines which wouldn't really give an accurate account of how to interact with a member of the opposite gender, let understand how females act. After all, every female character in shows and comic books are typically based around centralized tropes that are often stereotypical. Such as girls are fragile flowers that need to be protected, catty chicks who are only interested in fashion, boys, and fun. Or they are oversexualized gold digging bombshells that use their female wiles to get men to submit to their desires.

And the way Donnie does express himself around April does mature over the time he gets to know her. Even towards the end of the series he has pretty much stepped aside and lets April decide which of her two suitors she wants. Though the Power Inside Her episode does suggest April has chosen Donnie or at the very least the history he had with her had a huge influence in helping her break free of the crystal's influence.

All in all the only thing the Turtles would truly understand is that females are different in ways they don't truly understand

Again they could have gone more into more aspects such as the having April living with the Turtles following Karai's vendetta. Since this would be the first time ever a girl would actually be living with them. They are used to April hanging out in the lair with them and maybe spending the night on occasion.

But actually living with them is another thing entirely. So it would be just as awkward for them as it is for her. Now I'm not saying they do anything stereotypical boys would do such as checking out April in the shower.

Still, they could have had other adult-centric gaffes such as for example Mikey is used to walking in on his brothers

he knows them.
they don't have an actual need for privacy in the way humans do.


I can see Donnie offering up his room to her because he's trying to be a gentleman, but also because he more often then not sleeps in the lab anyway. So it would make the most sense to have him offer her that space.

Mikey is the sort of Turtle who would burst into the room to tell April good morning and catch her at an inopportune moment. It's something that could be completely done off-screen as well, such as may be having two or three of the other Turtles talking somewhere in the Lair. Then offscreen they hear Mikey cheerfully shout "Good Morning, April!" Followed by April screaming and yelling "MIKEY, DO YOU MIND!?"


They sort of imply that she does want another human friend who knows the Turtles so she has someone she can talk to about them. Casey, of course, fills this role. That was part of her reaction when Leo was telling her that he had met a girl. April at first is happy for him for finding a girl he likes and also she is interested in knowing who this person is because it would give her another female to commiserate with about their shelled friends. When Leo admits she's a member of the foot clan April is immediately turned off and says "Stay away from her because she's part of the Foot Clan." Even when Karai is finally on the good side and both females do work well as a team, they still aren't buddy-buddy.

Even the way April glowers at Karai at the end of "Broken Foot" screams "If Donnie or any of the turtles are hurt or worse because of you again. I will end you."

The psychic powers were an interesting aspect. During season one I had a theory that April was actually a Neutrino (Since they are a humanoid race from Dimension X and they do have psychic powers as baby's for some reason) In the 87 series, the King and Queen of the Neutrino's sent their baby Princess Tribble to the Turtles so they can protect her. And one of the nicknames Karai has for April is Princess because everything seems to revolve around her. While Donnie early on also does call April his sweet princess on occasion because he feels she is someone he must protect.

This would be a plausible reason as to why she has psychic powers, and why the Kraang desperately wanted to find her. April could have been the result of paring with Dr. O'Neil and a neutrino woman (which would also explain the absence and/or death of April's mother). The Kraang wanted April because since she is a cross breed to the two dimensions she would be able to facilitate the Kraang being able to take over the earth. Either that or her existence gives hope to the other Neutrino of Dimension X (particularly if her mother was Princess Tribble or maybe a nameless Queen of the Neutrinos.)so her capture would naturally crush their Spirits.

Unfortunatly, the going reason for April having psychic powers was because she was a human/kraang hybrid. Which would have been interesting, but the narative basicly forgets about this aspect of her character, or just completely brushes it aside and doesn't bring it up again.

[Leo656]

The main reason the Nick Producers wanted April as a contemporary was because it would have been weird to have a grown woman hanging out with a bunch of teenagers.

And yet, they figured that pushing a "love interest" angle between a teenage human female and a teenage mutant turtle was just the right amount of "weird". They couldn't figure a way to make Option 1 make sense - even though literally everyone else who ever handled the franchise hasn't had any problems with it - but they found nothing questionable about Option 2, and genuinely thought it was a better way to go.

It is what it is, but people's priorities always crack me up. Especially the way they over-think some things while barely putting any thought into other things. It's very interesting.

Over-Thinking: "We can't have April hang out with the Turtles if she's older than them, it's weird. Let's make them the same age."

Not-Enough-Thinking: "So how are we gonna tie up this 'romance' subplot with April and Donnie? Y'know... since we made a Big Huge Deal about it and everything." "Eh, I'unno. Do a bunch of movie parodies and hope everyone forgets about it?" "...Y'know, fine." :trazz:

[Prowler]

I've also never understood the whole "making April younger so that it'd make sense for her to hang out with teen-aged turtles" thing. It was never a problem nor did it seem odd in previous incarnations. I've never once read a "April is a bit too old to have 4 teenagers as her closest friends!" criticism in my life. That was never an issue people had with previous TMNT incarnations. Plus, the turtles weren't THAT much younger than April in those incarnations anyway. In the FW series, the Turtles seem to be about 17-19 or so, if I had to guess. And April was, if I remember, about 26-28 years old? Even if she was considerably older than them, it's not like she was babysitting them. Remember they were teenagers raised in the sewers as ninjas who saved the world from Shredder and other bad guys frequently. They weren't some dumb high school kids. Plus, April also had Irma as a friend. And who else was there for her to befriend? Vernon and Brune? Who'd want those guys as friends? :lol:

In the 2k3 series, April was even younger. She was 23 years old. And in that series, the Turtles also were not younger than 16-17 years old. Leonardo and Donatello didn't exactly strike me as immature. Plus, April had Casey as well. Not to mention she didn't appear as frequently as she did in the FW series.

In Mirage the Turtles are basically teenagers in name and age only. They're way more mature than human teenagers, due to the circumstances and environment in that they were raised, so it never looked like to me that the age gap between them and April was noticeable.

[victory_angel]

And yet, they figured that pushing a "love interest" angle between a teenage human female and a teenage mutant turtle was just the right amount of "weird". They couldn't figure a way to make Option 1 make sense - even though literally everyone else who ever handled the franchise hasn't had any problems with it - but they found nothing questionable about Option 2, and genuinely thought it was a better way to go.

It is what it is, but people's priorities always crack me up. Especially the way they over-think some things while barely putting any thought into other things. It's very interesting.

Over-Thinking: "We can't have April hang out with the Turtles if she's older than them, it's weird. Let's make them the same age."

Not-Enough-Thinking: "So how are we gonna tie up this 'romance' subplot with April and Donnie? Y'know... since we made a Big Huge Deal about it and everything." "Eh, I'unno. Do a bunch of movie parodies and hope everyone forgets about it?" "...Y'know, fine." :trazz:


Or they could have capitalized on it in some ways. For example, there was that love triangle between Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki over Tang Shen.

The love triangle between Donatello and Casey over April mirrored this same issue. However, it wasn't explicit in how it mirrored it. There were times where it was obvious what roles Donnie and Casey played, with Donnie being Yoshi and Casey being Saki. But then there were some episodes where the two switched roles and Donnie became Oroku Saki and Casey became Hamato Yoshi.

If they were going to make the love triangle with Capritello as prominent as they were depicting it. They could have had other characters noticing what the triangle was reflecting. We do have moments where Raph is telling Donnie that April is not going to like him in the way she wants. And we do have a couple of times where Leo does prevent Donnie and April from being teamed up or preventing April from coming with them because he didn't want Donnie to be distracted from what needed doing. But those are general brother concerns.

There is so much more that could have been done regarding all this, such as maybe Leo pulling Donnie aside and saying he isn't liking how obsessed he's become with April and he feels it's leading him down a dangerous path that would only destroy him and everything he stands for. Donnie, of course, brushes aside he brothers concerns or maybe throws his brother's obsession with Karai back at him. Then naturally there is a situation where he lets his obsession with April get the better of him. At the last moment, Donnie realizes what he is becoming and is able to stop himself in time.

Or maybe have the Shredder learn of the Triangle and uses it to sew discord between the Turtles and their human companions by poisoning Casey's mind into believing that if he lets the Turtle win April, then that would be a mistake he would regret the rest of his life. If he wants April to himself, he needs to eliminate Donatello for good. Casey at first resists, but the fear that April would choose Donnie only plagues his mind until finally he and Donnie violently clash during a huge battle. When Casey has Donnie at his mercy, the Shredder goads him into finishing it. Casey, realizes what he is doing and then turns to the Shredder and says "The biggest mistake I would regret for the rest of my life is that I ever listened to you."


The only time any aspect of the previous triangle was addressed at all was the moment was the "Learn to like falling down" lesson. This was done to teach Donatello that he couldn't force April to like him back. However, it was also pointed out that Oroku Saki let his jealousy over the fact that Tang Shen had chosen Hamato Yoshi consume him. So in a way, he was making sure Donnie didn't fall down the same path his former friend had.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Or maybe have the Shredder learn of the Triangle and uses it to sew discord between the Turtles and their human companions by poisoning Casey's mind into believing that if he lets the Turtle win April, then that would be a mistake he would regret the rest of his life. If he wants April to himself, he needs to eliminate Donatello for good. Casey at first resists, but the fear that April would choose Donnie only plagues his mind until finally he and Donnie violently clash during a huge battle. When Casey has Donnie at his mercy, the Shredder goads him into finishing it. Casey, realizes what he is doing and then turns to the Shredder and says "The biggest mistake I would regret for the rest of my life is that I ever listened to you."

As much I loved the serious aspects of the 2012 show, I don't think I would ever be able to take that kind of situation seriously at all.

I can't seriously imagine the Shredder saying something like:

"And Now, Casey Jones, eliminate the turtle before he steals Miss O'Neil from your hands."

Might work as some sort of wacky dream sequence though.

[victory_angel]

As much I loved the serious aspects of the 2012 show, I don't think I would ever be able to take that kind of situation seriously at all.

I can't seriously imagine the Shredder saying something like:

"And Now, Casey Jones, eliminate the turtle before he steals Miss O'Neil from your hands."

Might work as some sort of wacky dream sequence though.

He could tell Casey his twisted version of how Tang Shen died. Perhaps the exchange goes this way.

Shredder: Did Splinter ever tell you about what happened to Tang Shen?

Casey: The turtles said he lost his wife and child in a fire.

Shredder: That is the story he tells his sons, but the real truth is that Tang Shen was my beloved. He poisoned her mind and made her believe that he was her true love, and when I came to rescue her he made her take the blow that was meant for him. She was lost to both of us that horrible night, all because he couldn't accept that Tang Shen truly belongs to me. The same fate belongs to April O'Neil...that is unless you do something about it.

Casey: What do ya mean?

Shredder: The Turtle who desires her is a son of that rat...Hamato Yoshi. He has been raised since the day he was mutated to believe the lies his rodent father has taught him, he would do anything to have her by his side.

Casey: That doesn't sound like the Donnie I know.

Shredder: The one called Donatello is not to be trusted, and he will suffer the same fate as his brothers for the evil that Splinter has done. If he succeeds in convincing O'Neil to love him, she will die alongside him. However, if you love her, save her from him.

[sdp]

Teen April and Casey are great ideas, the problem is the show didn't use that properly and instead gave April some weird ass psychic powers for now reason. You know what you do when you have a teen April? You give her teenage problems, she needs to come up with excuses to leave the house, go to school, have friends, make dumb teenage decisions etc. Instead they wasted that away.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Teen April and Casey are great ideas, the problem is the show didn't use that properly and instead gave April some weird ass psychic powers for now reason. You know what you do when you have a teen April? You give her teenage problems, she needs to come up with excuses to leave the house, go to school, have friends, make dumb teenage decisions etc. Instead they wasted that away.

Instead of having her being Human–Kraang hybrid, make her know something (like being skilled in calculation) the Kraang need to know, so they could be after her for that.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Casey was one of the main reasons I stopped watching the 2012 show. Definitely my least favorite version of the character

[The Great Saiyaman]

Casey was one of the main reasons I stopped watching the 2012 show. Definitely my least favorite version of the character

You've missed a lot of awesome episodes if that's your sole reason for that.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

You've missed a lot of awesome episodes if that's your sole reason for that.

It's ONE of my main reasons. I have a lot of reasons I stopped watching

[IndigoErth]

I need an option between yes and no.

Not overly big on it, but I didn't mind 2012 doing it too much, maybe only when they got a little too involved at times or Casey was annoying, otherwise it was an interesting take for the one series, but I'm ready to see them be adults again. (And Turtles that seem/act older again as well.) But no... along comes 'Rise.' Hopefully next time...

[Leo656]

The new pop psych theory going around is, "Kids are incapable of relating to characters who are older than them, because they instinctively see anyone older as an 'authority figure' - parent, teacher, etc. - and kids don't like authority figures, so if we want to make a character popular (and of course, sell a toy) they have to be close to the same age as the target audience."

So I expect they'll be same-ish in age for a long time, at least in the cartoons. Movies, who knows. Although the last movie series had April and Casey as adults, and them being teens hasn't been done in live action yet and the youngest kids are probably wondering why not, so playing the odds, I'd guess the reboot will have them as teens to promote better synergy with the cartoons.

So yeah, buckle up. Adult April and Casey are going in the box for a while.

[IndigoErth]

The new pop psych theory going around is, "Kids are incapable of relating to characters who are older than them
Which is a shame, considering in our day an older character you liked as a kid might be one you looked up to. Definitely not an unrelatable authority figure.

So now everyone is supposed to be a would-be friend and zero role models...? No wonder so many are so screwy these days.

[Leo656]

As Iron Sheik would say... "Ex-ZACK-ly, baba! A-to-the Z!"

.....There'd also be a "F*** the Hollywood blonde jabroni Hulk Hogan" in there somewhere, but that's not really relevant to this particular conversation. But it is, indeed, what he would say.

Anyway, yeah, you're correct.

[Xav]

The new pop psych theory going around is, "Kids are incapable of relating to characters who are older than them, because they instinctively see anyone older as an 'authority figure' - parent, teacher, etc. - and kids don't like authority figures, so if we want to make a character popular (and of course, sell a toy) they have to be close to the same age as the target audience."It isn't exactly new. I mean superheroes have had kid sidekicks forever.

[sdp]

It isn't exactly new. I mean superheroes have had kid sidekicks forever.

If you look at the things your parents and grandparents complained about are exactly the same as people complaining now. "Back in my time...", as people get older they lose touch of the real world and cling to the one they knew or think things were somewhat different.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I guess Nickelodeon wanted teenage April O'Neil and Casey Jones because the turtles are teenagers.

[Prowler]

The new pop psych theory going around is, "Kids are incapable of relating to characters who are older than them, because they instinctively see anyone older as an 'authority figure' - parent, teacher, etc. - and kids don't like authority figures, so if we want to make a character popular (and of course, sell a toy) they have to be close to the same age as the target audience."

So I expect they'll be same-ish in age for a long time, at least in the cartoons. Movies, who knows. Although the last movie series had April and Casey as adults, and them being teens hasn't been done in live action yet and the youngest kids are probably wondering why not, so playing the odds, I'd guess the reboot will have them as teens to promote better synergy with the cartoons.

So yeah, buckle up. Adult April and Casey are going in the box for a while.
So... kids don't like Batman or other adult superheroes? Or pro wrestlers?

I mean, don't get me wrong, ofc there large amount of young protagonists in media aimed at kids/teenagers exists for a reason, but when I was a kid I recall liking pro wrestlers and many other kids I knew liking Batman or another adult superhero. So this whole idea that kids automatically cannot relate to or like adult characters seems flawed.

[victory_angel]

So... kids don't like Batman or other adult superheroes? Or pro wrestlers?

I mean, don't get me wrong, ofc there large amount of young protagonists in media aimed at kids/teenagers exists for a reason, but when I was a kid I recall liking pro wrestlers and many other kids I knew liking Batman or another adult superhero. So this whole idea that kids automatically cannot relate to or like adult characters seems flawed.

Kids are going to look up to characters like Bat Man and other Superheroes and like them as being the figures fighting for good. But kids often relate to characters that are kids like them, which is why the sidekicks are kids and young teenagers because it does give someone in the show they can see themselves as.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Kids are going to look up to characters like Bat Man and other Superheroes and like them as being the figures fighting for good. But kids often relate to characters that are kids like them, which is why the sidekicks are kids and young teenagers because it does give someone in the show they can see themselves as.

That kind of backfired in OT when Zach was introduced.

Not many kids liked him.

[Leo656]

So... kids don't like Batman or other adult superheroes? Or pro wrestlers?

I mean, don't get me wrong, ofc there large amount of young protagonists in media aimed at kids/teenagers exists for a reason, but when I was a kid I recall liking pro wrestlers and many other kids I knew liking Batman or another adult superhero. So this whole idea that kids automatically cannot relate to or like adult characters seems flawed.

I don't write the psychobabble, I just observe and report.

Case in point, She-Ra (and the entire cast) was made into a teenager in the new series for this specific reason.

Obviously the entire theory is full of holes and has been disproven repeatedly, but again, it's a line that the focus groups wholeheartedly buy into at the moment, and it's a factor in designing characters in kids' shows.

Like, they can't even argue that they made April and Casey into kids "so they could tell more and different stories," because they didn't bother to follow through with that. It was 100% about "Kids relate better to Other Kids" and nothing else.

Flawed theory, but I didn't write it.

[victory_angel]

That kind of backfired in OT when Zach was introduced.

Not many kids liked him.

Zack wasn't there to be likable. He was mostly there to be a human sidekick of the Turtles who was the age of the target audience. So, in other words, he was there to represent the audience.

[IndigoErth]

Which is why it's a little ironic that despite their intentions he wasn't well liked. lol

[The Great Saiyaman]

Zack wasn't there to be likable. He was mostly there to be a human sidekick of the Turtles who was the age of the target audience. So, in other words, he was there to represent the audience.

Which is also where THIS guy comes in...
http://www.cc.wwbtc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ThePulverizer.jpg
"I wanna be a ninja, I wanna be a mutant, I really identify with you guys so much I wanna be like you guys!"

How many fanboys are actually like that?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Which is also where THIS guy comes in...
http://www.cc.wwbtc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ThePulverizer.jpg
"I wanna be a ninja, I wanna be a mutant, I really identify with you guys so much I wanna be like you guys!"

How many fanboys are actually like that?

Personally, I liked Zach better than Timothy.

Its a shame nothing ever came of Timothy in the end.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Zack wasn't there to be likable. He was mostly there to be a human sidekick of the Turtles who was the age of the target audience. So, in other words, he was there to represent the audience.

Zach claimed himself to be almost 14 in The Fifth Turtle, but I think he lied. He was probably something between 9–10.

[Prowler]

Kids are going to look up to characters like Bat Man and other Superheroes and like them as being the figures fighting for good. But kids often relate to characters that are kids like them, which is why the sidekicks are kids and young teenagers because it does give someone in the show they can see themselves as.
I dunno, man. I hated both Scrappy-Doo and Zach when I was a kid.

Zack wasn't there to be likable. He was mostly there to be a human sidekick of the Turtles who was the age of the target audience. So, in other words, he was there to represent the audience.
Too bad I hated him when I was a kid. Not to mention the name of the Episode was The FIFTH Turtle. At first, when I read that title, I was like "HOLY S***". I actually thought a new actual Turtle was joining the team... but all it was was a kid who was a huge TMNT fanboy.

[victory_angel]

Which is also where THIS guy comes in...
http://www.cc.wwbtc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/ThePulverizer.jpg
"I wanna be a ninja, I wanna be a mutant, I really identify with you guys so much I wanna be like you guys!"

How many fanboys are actually like that?

Unlike Zack, Timothy at least had a purpose in attempting to bring Donnie's pacifism to the surface. I guess this character wasn't liked enough to continue the story. Either that or the writing team didn't consider that hanging plot thread with everything else that was going on.

I dunno, man. I hated both Scrappy-Doo and Zach when I was a kid.


Too bad I hated him when I was a kid. Not to mention the name of the Episode was The FIFTH Turtle. At first, when I read that title, I was like "HOLY S***". I actually thought a new actual Turtle was joining the team... but all it was was a kid who was a huge TMNT fanboy.

Scrappy Doo wasn't liked by anyone, he was pretty much an idea for a character they came up with when their show had jumped the shark and was beginning to go on the decline. So they decided to create what was to be the opposite of Scooby. Where Scooby was big but was too much of craven coward to really do much except run for the hills. Scrappy was ready to scrap with anything, but couldn't do much because of his size. His bravado also got old really really fast, and with the exception of being occasionally referenced in more recent Scooby-Doo series he has phased out entirely. His last outing was during the first live-action Scooby Doo movie where he's the surprise twist villain of the story, which was a surprise you could see a mile away.

There is an episode of one of the more modern Scooby Doo shows where Daphnie sees a statue of Scrappy and when she starts to say it looks like him. Fred stops her and says "Don't say it, we agreed we'd never talk about him again."


Too bad I hated him when I was a kid. Not to mention the name of the Episode was The FIFTH Turtle. At first, when I read that title, I was like "HOLY S***". I actually thought a new actual Turtle was joining the team... but all it was was a kid who was a huge TMNT fanboy.



Zack is pretty much there to be a stereotypical stand-in for any kid who wished they could hang out with the Turtles...or any superhero for that matter. I don't know if there is a way to really make the Zack likable really, even if they fleshed him out there would still be a kid hanging out with the turtles and getting into trouble because he's trying to help in their missions.

[Candy Kappa]

The new pop psych theory going around is, "Kids are incapable of relating to characters who are older than them, because they instinctively see anyone older as an 'authority figure' - parent, teacher, etc. - and kids don't like authority figures, so if we want to make a character popular (and of course, sell a toy) they have to be close to the same age as the target audience."

New? I wouldn't Call Bucky and Robin new :P

[Leo656]

Creating a kid sidekick is a little bit of a different approach than de-aging an established popular character based on the mistaken impression that contemporary kids won't accept them unless they're a peer, though.

The reasoning is the same - "Give kids a character they can relate to" - but the "Why" and "How" are very different.

[CyberCubed]

Robin is technically the only kid sidekick concept that became popular, and it wasn't until decades after he was introduced. Old 40's-70's comics and Adam West Robin are hated to this day, it was really only during the 80's and onward that Robin became "cool" and that was because Dick became Nightwing.

[neatoman]

Would you care to enlighten as to why an unpopular character would stick around for 40 years? I mean, if Dick Grayson really was that hated, why make keep him around for both Batman and Teen Titans?

[CyberCubed]

Batman comics themselves got incredibly silly and kid-like in that era, so he fit the time period. You would have to ask old people who grew up with the comics when they originally came out in the 40's-early 70's to see what they thought at the time. They were the target audience.

Also it's not like all modern era Robin's were liked. Look at how disliked Robin is in Batman and Robin and Batman Forever.

[Leo656]

To be fair, casting an actor who was clearly in their mid-20s AND writing him to be a whiny bitch didn't do the Robin concept any favors, as far as those two films are concerned.

I'm a huge Robin fan and I loved the costume they came up with for "Forever", but even I wanted to strangle Chris O'Donnell to death. The execution simply wasn't good.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Robin is technically the only kid sidekick concept that became popular, and it wasn't until decades after he was introduced. Old 40's-70's comics and Adam West Robin are hated to this day, it was really only during the 80's and onward that Robin became "cool" and that was because Dick became Nightwing.

But it was more the case of HOW he became Nightwing which made him popular than just adapting a new identity, there was a good reason for Dick Grayson to abandon being the "Boy Wonder"
http://kastorskorner.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/TNTTJudasContractPageA.jpg

https://fictionandfriction.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/robins-resignation-2.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c13e681b2ab67217d14036943e645939
It was quite a show of realism in the New Teen Titans series which struck a chord with people, everybody has that coming of age moment.

[Leo656]

And then a year or so later, they retconned it so that he got fired from being Robin after The Joker shot him, and then Bruce replaced him with Jason 5 minutes later for no reason other than "Batman's A Huge Dick And Also A Hypocrite". :lol:

Good stuff.

[Xav]

You would think Batman would've learned to either stop hiring Robins or to get rid of the Joker for good.

[CyberCubed]

But also a lot of other modern depictions of Robin were always popular. The Batman: TAS Robin who debuted in 1992 was always well liked. I remember even as a kid liking him instantly and wishing he showed up more since he doesn't even appear in most of the episodes.

Robin in the 2003 Teen Titans cartoon was also always very popular. I also like Robin in Young Justice.

I think modern cartoons (and by that I mean from the 90's onward, Superfriends Robin was still mostly bad/lame/whatever), learned how to make Robin cool from the start. That's why you can have a 13 year old or whatever Dick Grayson in recent cartoons and people still find him cool.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Zack is pretty much there to be a stereotypical stand-in for any kid who wished they could hang out with the Turtles...or any superhero for that matte.

Captain Planet had a similair episode, The Littlest Planeteer with a young boy following the teenagers on their adventures.

[turtle1237]

But also a lot of other modern depictions of Robin were always popular. The Batman: TAS Robin who debuted in 1992 was always well liked. I remember even as a kid liking him instantly and wishing he showed up more since he doesn't even appear in most of the episodes.

Robin in the 2003 Teen Titans cartoon was also always very popular. I also like Robin in Young Justice.

I think modern cartoons (and by that I mean from the 90's onward, Superfriends Robin was still mostly bad/lame/whatever), learned how to make Robin cool from the start. That's why you can have a 13 year old or whatever Dick Grayson in recent cartoons and people still find him cool.

Because Robin in TAS and the Robin in Teen Titans(2003) always did have a edge to him. I think nothing points that out than the 2 parter in BTAS Robin's reckoning.

[Dejablue]

Honestly have no problem with April and Casey being teenagers. I mean it changes absolutely nothing. Adult/ Kid. They are still useless by the end game no matter what. But they have being human and "almost adult" going for them which is really all they both need. That's enough for them to be useful allies in the early game.

The only problem I see with them being teenagers is they have parents. And you have to be a bit clever with how you deal with parents. I don't like it when they are ignored completely.

So really in my opinion the age of April and Casey will depend on things like "themes" and how either being an adult or a teenager would help tell that theme or story better.

[turtle1237]

Honestly have no problem with April and Casey being teenagers. I mean it changes absolutely nothing. Adult/ Kid. They are still useless by the end game no matter what. But they have being human and "almost adult" going for them which is really all they both need. That's enough for them to be useful allies in the early game.

The only problem I see with them being teenagers is they have parents. And you have to be a bit clever with how you deal with parents. I don't like it when they are ignored completely.

So really in my opinion the age of April and Casey will depend on things like "themes" and how either being an adult or a teenager would help tell that theme or story better.

April was far from useless. She had superpowers. She was able to bring death, and than bring life. She was a God in power level when the show called for it. If she can make people vanish using her mind, and than reconstruct them later, means yes, she could defeat all 4 Turtles, Splinter, and Super Shredder had she just used her powers.

[Dejablue]

True she had all of those cool powers but forcefully limited in her ability to use them because she wasn't a main character. So in a way she was made to be useless so the Turtles could have something to do.

[turtle1237]

Looking back, with the way they "Feature" April, I think it would of been for the best for them to have made April a adult.

I mean who watch say the Manhattan Project and not find it kinda of awkward consider April's age with that creepy warm rubbing April's butt in a close up shot? Had April been 18-20ish, the scene would not of been so well awkward. But they did make there own been with scenes like this in regards to April.

https://imgur.com/4zc2TXM

[TommyT]

Well, the ratio of the mutation isn't fity-fifty, it's more 20% of the original DNA and the 80% of the invading species.

I know we're talking pseudo science, but this is some janky science right here.

[WebLurker]

I think there are pros and cons to having April and Casey as peers or as adults to the Turtles. I've seen stuff I've liked about both takes. IMHO, I don't think everything about the rejigging in the 2012 show landed, but I think it worked for that version.

[Andrew NDB]

I think it was a good experiment... however I question the reasons behind it. As in, it seems like it was just done so Donatello can have sexual tension with a human.

[newfan]

I think it was a good experiment... however I question the reasons behind it. As in, it seems like it was just done so Donatello can have sexual tension with a human.

I just thought they wanted to have the friends be the same age as the turtles this time, given they seemed a little more teen like themselves here (more in the start anyway) I guess the thought could have been there too, that or additionally they just thought 'ah, seen as....' I mean teen boys can be attracted to young women but obviously no pursuing.
Maybe they thought kids would prefer older kids to adults? (seen as they have done it again) I dunno. I guess it never came up in any show Q&A's?

[Andrew NDB]

I just thought they wanted to have the friends be the same age as the turtles this time, given they seemed a little more teen like themselves here (more in the start anyway)

That's what I was hoping, too... except that went out the window a bit with the anime stuff with Don's heart beating out of his chest and such, pining over her.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I just thought they wanted to have the friends be the same age as the turtles this time, given they seemed a little more teen like themselves here (more in the start anyway).

Thats the impression I got too, that since the turtles are already teenagers in this version, that April and Casey should be too.

Its never been odd for turtles to interact with an adult April in the past, but thats because no turtle incarnation before the Nick toon really had them acting like typical American human teenagers.

[newfan]

Thats the impression I got too, that since the turtles are already teenagers in this version, that April and Casey should be too.

Its never been odd for turtles to interact with an adult April in the past, but thats because no turtle incarnation before the Nick toon really had them acting like typical American human teenagers.

Yeah when watching the movies or 2k3 I didn't sit and find myself thinking that these guys were too old to be friends with the TMNT, either works for me but as there are many versions I could appreciate this exploring this angle. As others have said though, the issues some had came more from the actual characters rather than the fact that they were teens.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Also, when you think about it, Nick Splinter definetly seems younger than his other incarnations too when it comes to his stature and mannerisms.

So it wasn't only April, Casey and Karai who were made younger in response to the turtles acting like human teenagers, but Splinter too.

[newfan]

Also, when you think about it, Nick Splinter definetly seems younger than his other incarnations too when it comes to his stature and mannerisms.

So it wasn't only April, Casey and Karai who were made younger in response to the turtles acting like human teenagers, but Splinter too.

I don't know if that's why they did that with the teen friends, I liked this angle with Splinter too but then it went with the story of him being raised with Saki and his daughter only being 16.

Edit: So far as the teen aspect, though the turtles were more teen-like here (especially when starting out) they still have different lives to a regular teen obviously given what they do (as well as being different). To be fair Casey and April's lives were not that of regular teens as the show progressed and I can't imagine Karai got to be a regular child much past being toddler.

[Andrew NDB]

thats because no turtle incarnation before the Nick toon really had them acting like typical American human teenagers.

It's far more strange that they would act like typical American human teenagers than were they not to.

[Leo656]

It's far more strange that they would act like typical American human teenagers than were they not to.

Yeah, really. I'll never understand how that one just zips right past most people.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, really. I'll never understand how that one just zips right past most people.

It's been a consistent point of whining from the fans over the years. "Why, WHY do the Turtles never act like normal human teenagers?" And then complain about TMNT writers not doing that.

Answer: because they wouldn't, because they're pretty f***ing far from that. Even if you remove them being trained from the time of their mutation to one day kill a man from the equation (you know, from the source material), you still end up with 4 brothers being raised in complete isolation from society in a sewer being taught not much more than martial arts for 15 years or so.

[Leo656]

I think most fans are secretly more interested in seeing themselves in the characters than they are with any kind of narrative consistency.

Consider how many people declare their favorite Turtle as "the one who's just like me!" and it becomes pretty clear. They'd rather see them behave how they WANT them to act, moreso than how they actually would.

Lots of projection and such going on. Kinda silly.

Also, "But they watch TV!" is the standard catch-all defense when trying to explain why they'd act like human beings despite being Not That. :trazz:

[FredWolfLeonardo]

It's been a consistent point of whining from the fans over the years. "Why, WHY do the Turtles never act like normal human teenagers?" And then complain about TMNT writers not doing that.

While I am not saying that they should act like human teenagers, the word Teenage in the title does end up creating expectations in people, especially when their first exposure to turtles involves pizza and cowabunga.

[Prowler]

I think most fans are secretary more interested in seeing themselves in the characters than they are with any kind of narrative consistency.

Consider how many people declare their favorite Turtle as "the one who's just like me!" and it becomes pretty clear. They'd rather see them behave how they WANT them to act, moreso than how they actually would.

Lots of projection and such going on. Kinda silly.

Also, "But they watch TV!" is the standard catch-all defense when trying to explain why they'd act like human beings despite being Not That. :trazz:
I dunno, I don't think I really have much in common with any of them anymore, except for the fact that I also like pizza(who doesn't?) and also like video games.

My faovurite turtles have throughout history mostly been Don and Raph. I'm by no means a mathematics or science guy, so I can't say I relate to Don personally. As for Raph, well, his wiseguy Rob Paulsen character in the FW series is funny. As for angry and angsty Raph... eh can be a bit too much at times. In the 2k3 series he gets really dumbed down as time goes on. Can't say I relate much to him either. Maybe a bit when I was a teen, but that's all.

I don't need fictional characters to be a mirror image of me or to share the same personality traits with me in order for me to like them. Most of my favourite fictional characters are more like people I'd aspire to be than fictionalised versions of me, I'd say.

[Leo656]

F*cking stupid phone. "Secretary" should obviously be "secretly". :lol: Thanks brother.

I mostly feel the same as you, by the way. But I've been here long enough to see plenty of "I am Raphael!", "I am Mikey!" types come and go. So it's obviously a legitimate phenomenon.

[Prowler]

F*cking stupid phone. "Secretary" should obviously be "secretly". :lol: Thanks brother.

I mostly feel the same as you, by the way. But I've been here long enough to see plenty of "I am Raphael!", "I am Mikey!" types come and go. So it's obviously a legitimate phenomenon.

There are adults in here who are just like certain versions of Michelangelo? That's a bit concerning...

[Monte Williams]

I hate the 2012 take on Casey Jones, especially in the space episodes.

That said, I am revisiting the series, and I am surprised to see that he is fairly promising in his first few episodes.

I just dimly remember him becoming increasingly moronic and tone-deaf as the series progresses. Like, doesn't he suggest "This is so metal!" mere moments after Earth explodes?

As for April, I hated the idea of her being a teenager, but I mostly ended up enjoying what they did with her. I mean, she got a bit over-powered, and it was silly that the entire mythos was revolving around her and her role in all the Kraang at times. One could justifiably dismiss her as a Mary Sue or whatever.

But I liked April herself, and I liked that she trained with Splinter, and I thought her first fight with Karai was one of the most intense and powerful scenes in any TMNT medium.

Any episode involving her dad felt like a boring waste of time to me, however.

The only versions of April that I have any opinion of one way or another are Judith Hoag in the 1990 live-action movie and teenage April in the 2012 series.

I suppose that I would prefer for her to be an adult again in the next iteration, but I don't care especially strongly about it.

[Powder]

I feel 100% the same way as Monte here. Well said.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I hate the 2012 take on Casey Jones, especially in the space episodes.

That said, I am revisiting the series, and I am surprised to see that he is fairly promising in his first few episodes.

I just dimly remember him becoming increasingly moronic and tone-deaf as the series progresses. Like, doesn't he suggest "This is so metal!" mere moments after Earth explodes?


You hit the nail right on the head.

His first few episodes were especially interesting indeed, since he talks about protecting his family, who of course are never shown for even one episode, and his demeanor in those first few episodes is half serious and half comedic rather than shouting "This is so Awesome!" all the time.

The scene involving him in Requiem though was awesome, when he says oops and makes the garbage truck crush Super Shredder.