Things the FW series doesn't get enough credit for?

[Prowler]

We all know about the worst things about the FW series and its impact on the property as a whole. But what about the good things?

Making Baxter Stockman a major villain: In Mirage, Baxter appears in the 2nd or 3rd issue and then only reappears years later in Volume 2. By then it was already 1994 or so? No way did Laird and Eastman expect to use him again, let alone years later, when they originally drew him back in 1984-1985. The FW series made him into one of the core villains of the TMNT property.

Making a Donatello that can actually kick ass: FW Donatello is arguably the best iteration of the character. He's not only a nerd but also has a temper and can fight. He's almost the leader of the group. Granted his tech achievements and scientific knowledge is a bit exaggerated for a teenage Turtle that has never had any sort of education, but other than that he doesn't have any major flaws in this version.

Donatello was my favourite alongside Raphael when I was a kid, so it was kinda disappointing to see how he's been handled in other TMNT versions since then. They tried to make him cool in the original live action movie... but they made him a bit annoying.

There's probably, more, but these are the ones I can think of for now. What about you?

[CyberCubed]

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.

[neatoman]

I guess it doesn't get enough credit for stretching out its season count by making almost half of them less than 10 episodes long, thereby making its time on the air seem more impressive than it actually is.

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

It doesn't get enough credit for making Peter Laird angry enough to keep tighter creative control for 20 years, thereby limiting it's influence until 2009.

Beyond these points, I'd the show gets far more credit than it deserves.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

James Bond Junior was actually a major hit here in Sweden by 1992–1993.

[MikeandRaph87]

A few things come to mind-
Making The Shredder into a reoccurring threat opposed to first threat.

Expanding the character roster from other mutants outside the core five and Leatherhead.

Making Rat King a prominent character. After Shredder and Krang, Rat King is the most prominent foe. He may vary by iteration,but he is a constant presence because someone read Tales of TMNT#4 and quickly used him in the show.

Giving diverse identities to the characters and especially building Michelangelo who was the most static in the early Mirage Comics. Other media fails to understand what he was in this show,he was not a stoned surfer, but a fun loving teenager and athlete who was the heart of the team.

A small note, actually staying in the same lair from the first episode to beyond the last episode.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

A small note, actually staying in the same lair from the first episode to beyond the last episode.

The Turtle Lair looks different during season 1, so it's possible the turtles relocated between seasons 1 and 2.

[pferreira]

It seems since I've been on this site that the series is quite underrated therefore I guess there's a lot that's underrated about it?

- Some of the animation is pretty solid for the time.

- The voice actors really get into their roles before the self-referentialism acting of later TMNT iterations set in. This was obviously due to changes in how people viewed the word. Everything today is taken much less seriously, there's more winking to audiences today. Before anyone complains "hang on a second, in this cartoon the TMNT talk to camera." You could say the same thing about He-Man from back then. Well yeah they do but it's taken seriously, the acting and writing gives those characters a reality. Today characters in films and TV are either written as deadly serious with dry witty remarks or the intentional annoying, unfunny comic relief. Compare the presentation of 80s TMNT to the 2003 ones for an example of this. There is no in-between. They just seems to be trying too hard today but they end up coming across they aren't taking it seriously.

- For me one of the biggest pluses of the cartoon series was how it contributed to my imagination. through it's plots. While the plots were mostly based on sci-fi and horror B-movies from the 50s I had no frame of reference at that time so it felt new. Not just that but the combination of those retro/retro-futuristic plots with the blending of then modern was amazing! So I'm thankful for the Fred Wolf cartoon series for all this.

James Bond Junior was actually a major hit here in Sweden by 1992–1993.You expect an ignorant troll to use logic? :lol:

I guess it doesn't get enough credit for stretching out its season count by making almost half of them less than 10 episodes long, thereby making its time on the air seem more impressive than it actually is.

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

It doesn't get enough credit for making Peter Laird angry enough to keep tighter creative control for 20 years, thereby limiting it's influence until 2009.

Beyond these points, I'd the show gets far more credit than it deserves.So much ignorance, so much hate. Did the 80s cartoon or Fred Wolf personally hurt you? Why do you bother??? :roll::roll:

[Andrew NDB]

It seems since I've been on this site that the series is quite underrated

You've got to be kidding me.

And if there's one thing that the FW gets, is way too much credit. For everything. Too many "nods" to it, too much nostalgia for it, too many "homages" to it, too much of all of it.

Cement shoes.

[AquaParade]

I think it generally receives a high amount of credit, and rightfully so.

You can love it or hate it, but even if you hate it, you must acknowledge two major things it has done:

- Introduced mass audiences to the TMNT and served as the main gateway to other, arguably superior, versions of the TMNT.
Some of us may have never found the Mirage books without the popularity of the cartoon.

- Extended the life of the entire franchise, enabling further possibilities for the brand.
Like an auteur director who supports his passion projects by directing a summer blockbuster, the pop-culture influence of the old toon has been a major propellant for the franchise to this day. We may still receive dividends from this, if the franchise ever decides to sit up straight and deliver the kick-ass material we all know it is capable of. The fact that there is a chance, however slim, is due to the success of the cartoon.

That said, I can imagine the perspective that the show has been nothing but detrimental to the franchise in general, given that it is a drastic change in tone from the source material which highly divides the fan-base and warps the general perception of the franchise in the public eye.
But to that, I'd say the source material is always there to be enjoyed. I'd also say that Mirage studios had a hell of a run, and also likely benefited from the success of the cartoon.
I don't think the cartoon ever truly got in Mirage's way, and I don't strongly believe the franchise would have any stronger a chance of existing in any, possibly faithful, adaption today, had the cartoon not existed.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

You could say the same thing about He-Man from back then.

Many 1980's cartoons had those lines after the episode. TMNT only had a few Turtle Tips about the environment and pollution during season 4, not so much more.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

You've got to be kidding me.

And if there's one thing that the FW gets, is way too much credit. For everything. Too many "nods" to it, too much nostalgia for it, too many "homages" to it, too much of all of it.

Cement shoes.

This. It gets most all the credit, except whenever somebody decides to be oh so edgy and trot out a black and white Turtle in a red mask. Because the Mirage universe is a dark and monochromatic void of grittiness and despair.

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.

You shut your damn mouth, you filthy casual. :tlol:

[FredWolfLeonardo]

The biggest thing which I think that the series doesn't get enough credit for, is the wonderful chemistry between the characters, which is mostly due to their voice actors who really put their heart into the performances.

I feel that a lot of people who are overall critical of the show, are so because they wanted it to be something it is not.

The Fred Wolf series was never meant to be story heavy, violent action-driven and about a cycle of revenge like the Mirage comic books, and the creators were certainly clear about what they wanted, which was a show about all these colourful characters all bouncing off each other and being entertaining.

The core aspect of the show: the aspect of character interactions and performances is something which I feel the show nailed very well, possibly even better than all the other tmnt cartoons combined.

[Prowler]

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.
Well, it did introduce me to sci-fi. Just like it introduced me to ninjas and Japanese stuff in general, even though hardly anything Japanese in the show is accurate.

I guess it doesn't get enough credit for stretching out its season count by making almost half of them less than 10 episodes long, thereby making its time on the air seem more impressive than it actually is.

It doesn't get enough credit for singlehandedly keeping a tiny animation studio alive, because nothing else they made can be considered even remotely popular.

It doesn't get enough credit for making Peter Laird angry enough to keep tighter creative control for 20 years, thereby limiting it's influence until 2009.

Beyond these points, I'd the show gets far more credit than it deserves.
Yeah what else has Fred Wolf even done?

It's indeed odd how the last 3 seasons were only 8 episodes each. Renewing a show that was dying after the TurtleMania boom in 1990-1992 began its rapid decline was a strange thing. But at least it had a decent enough ending. A lot of cartoons just end on a random episode.

Come to think of it, seasons 3 and 4 are abnormalities. They're HUGE. like 48-52 episodes each or something like that.

A few things come to mind-
Making The Shredder into a reoccurring threat opposed to first threat.

Expanding the character roster from other mutants outside the core five and Leatherhead.

Making Rat King a prominent character. After Shredder and Krang, Rat King is the most prominent foe. He may vary by iteration,but he is a constant presence because someone read Tales of TMNT#4 and quickly used him in the show.

Giving diverse identities to the characters and especially building Michelangelo who was the most static in the early Mirage Comics. Other media fails to understand what he was in this show,he was not a stoned surfer, but a fun loving teenager and athlete who was the heart of the team.

A small note, actually staying in the same lair from the first episode to beyond the last episode.
Well it definitely gets credit for making Shredder the turtles's arch-nemesis.

I guess some Mirage purists don't like the idea of Shredder being THE main villain in TMNT and a guy they have trouble defeating, but what hero or character doesn't have an arch-nemesis? Batman has The Joker, Superman has Lex Luthor, Mario has Bowser, Sonic has Dr. Robotnik, Link has Ganon(dorf). Why can't the Turtles have Shredder?

[pferreira]

You've got to be kidding me.

And if there's one thing that the FW gets, is way too much credit. For everything. Too many "nods" to it, too much nostalgia for it, too many "homages" to it, too much of all of it.I meant on this forum. Outside sure I totally agree. On here I detect mostly hate and belittlement towards the original cartoon series.

I don't think the cartoon ever truly got in Mirage's way, and I don't strongly believe the franchise would have any stronger a chance of existing in any, possibly faithful, adaption today, had the cartoon not existed.Here's the thing: when people are asked the positives of the FW series I see a lot of people list the overall things above but nothing specific in terms of the series content. I never hear anyone talk on here about classic episodes of the series and what makes the series special. The overall positives I get are it helped with merchandise and public awareness which is in kind of selling the series short in my opinion.

Many 1980's cartoons had those lines after the episode. TMNT only had a few Turtle Tips about the environment and pollution during season 4, not so much more.I mean Raph talked to camera a fair bit during the series but the writing and voice acting seemed to be free of cynicism. This is the problem with Hollywood today. In trying to deliver the 'Magic of Hollywood' there isn't that naivety in the content anymore. There's this misplaced logic that making everything cynical and grounded in reality makes it real. It's like comparing the 1978 Superman movie with Man of Steel. On the face of it the 70s Superman movie is absurd and camp viewed today but it doesn't matter because the characters feel real, therefore relatable. Man of Steel takes the approach of today's writing/acting but the characters act more absurd therefore they don't come across as real. The reason the FW series worked so well wasn't because of just good voice acting, it was the ability by the writers as well to commit and create likable characters.

You shut your damn mouth, you filthy casual. :tlol:While I don't totally agree Cubed has to an extent a point. It helped make me want to tell stories and create universes so I'm thankful for the 80s cartoon for doing that. :)

The core aspect of the show: the aspect of character interactions and performances is something which I feel the show nailed very well, possibly even better than all the other tmnt cartoons combined.That goes back to what i said in my previous post about being able to write centered characters. Sure if you can have an actor come in and make something out of nothing that helps but most of the time you got to have a character that doesn't fall into one emotion, a problem for example the 2003 series committed. That doesn't mean the 2003 series is bad, just that it's characterisation isn't its best quality.

[neatoman]

Yeah what else has Fred Wolf even done?

It's indeed odd how the last 3 seasons were only 8 episodes each. Renewing a show that was dying after the TurtleMania boom in 1990-1992 began its rapid decline was a strange thing. But at least it had a decent enough ending. A lot of cartoons just end on a random episode.

Come to think of it, seasons 3 and 4 are abnormalities. They're HUGE. like 48-52 episodes each or something like that.

You know how Fant4stic exists for no other reason than to prevent the film rights to the Fantastic Four from ending up in Disney's hands (which has ironically happened anyway)? Since Next Mutation began production right after the Fred Wolf show ended, I assume the license required the show to constantly be in production and that the rights would revert once profuction ceased, which obviously you wouldn't want to happen if you have nothing else to fall back on.

As for the absurdly long seasons. The third gave the show a total of 65 episodes, a minimum for syndication and a very common episode count for cartoons to end up with. As for season four, I'm not sure?

My best guess for season four is that they ****ed up somehow. 15 episodes aired in syndication, 26 on CBS and the chopped out vacation arc is 13, leaving the total 54. You could say that pushing it over 100 episodes would always make sure they could get a syndication deal but the show stopped being in syndication during the season and if that was the plan then 35 would have been enough.

Here's what I think might have happened: 13 and 26 are both considered pretty normal episode counts for cartoon seasons, 15 is a bit weird but not weirder than 5, 20, 14, 16 or 8. Fred Wolf might already have been planning on making shorter seasons after season three but for one reason or another ended up ordering more batches than planned around the same time, possibly as part of some exclusivity deal with CBS.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Fred Wolf first orders 15 episodes to continue in syndication, when that has already started production CBS asks for an exclusive season, to which they agree. For whatever reason, they then forget about the exclusive season and orders another season set in europe which does end up being produced, it's just put on the shelf once they remember the exclusive deal.

Again, I have no idea if that guess is even remotely accurate, it's just a possible explaination for what happened.

[AquaParade]

I meant on this forum. Outside sure I totally agree. On here I detect mostly hate and belittlement towards the original cartoon series.

Here's the thing: when people are asked the positives of the FW series I see a lot of people list the overall things above but nothing specific in terms of the series content. I never hear anyone talk on here about classic episodes of the series and what makes the series special. The overall positives I get are it helped with merchandise and public awareness which is in kind of selling the series short in my opinion.

I mean Raph talked to camera a fair bit during the series but the writing and voice acting seemed to be free of cynicism. This is the problem with Hollywood today. In trying to deliver the 'Magic of Hollywood' there isn't that naivety in the content anymore. There's this misplaced logic that making everything cynical and grounded in reality makes it real. It's like comparing the 1978 Superman movie with Man of Steel. On the face of it the 70s Superman movie is absurd and camp viewed today but it doesn't matter because the characters feel real, therefore relatable. Man of Steel takes the approach of today's writing/acting but the characters act more absurd therefore they don't come across as real. The reason the FW series worked so well wasn't because of just good voice acting, it was the ability by the writers as well to commit and create likable characters.

While I don't totally agree Cubed has to an extent a point. It helped make me want to tell stories and create universes so I'm thankful for the 80s cartoon for doing that. :)

That goes back to what i said in my previous post about being able to write centered characters. Sure if you can have an actor come in and make something out of nothing that helps but most of the time you got to have a character that doesn't fall into one emotion, a problem for example the 2003 series committed. That doesn't mean the 2003 series is bad, just that it's characterisation isn't its best quality.

I hear what you're saying about the positive aspects of the series being neglected, but keep in mind that the section of my post which you quoted is directed towards those who dislike the series.

But again, I hear you. I can say that I do truly love the series. It's clearly not my favorite rendition of the characters, but I certainly have fun with it. I love the character design, the odd synth'y soundtrack, the irreverent humor. I think its greatest strength is that it's just a really feel-good show. I probably chuckle once or twice an episode at most, but it's actually quite a pleasant world to "live in", if you feel like vegging out for a few hours.

[Wesley]

The original cartoon was basically, "Star Trek for kids."

The amount of sci-fi plots with alternate dimensions, time travel, 50's-80's sci-fi movie parodies. Even people who aren't traditionally sci-fi fans can learn all about science fiction from watching the original cartoon.

Agreed. It was my introduction to sci-fi as a kid, even though I didn’t even know about the genre back then.

The biggest thing which I think that the series doesn't get enough credit for, is the wonderful chemistry between the characters, which is mostly due to their voice actors who really put their heart into the performances.

I feel that a lot of people who are overall critical of the show, are so because they wanted it to be something it is not.

The Fred Wolf series was never meant to be story heavy, violent action-driven and about a cycle of revenge like the Mirage comic books, and the creators were certainly clear about what they wanted, which was a show about all these colourful characters all bouncing off each other and being entertaining.

The core aspect of the show: the aspect of character interactions and performances is something which I feel the show nailed very well, possibly even better than all the other tmnt cartoons combined.

I agree. Voice acting was one of the cartoon’s strong points. I still like the show but not as much as the 2003 series and the 1990 film. Good for its time, though. Some episodes are more enjoyable for me as an adult, as a lot of the humour such as Raphael’s sarcastic remarks and the banter between Shredder and Krang went over my head as a kid.

[pferreira]

Yeah what else has Fred Wolf even done?
A fair bit. Don't get me wrong, TMNT is Fred Wolf Films biggest show but they produced other series, a couple that were pretty successful at the time.

As for the absurdly long seasons. The third gave the show a total of 65 episodes, a minimum for syndication and a very common episode count for cartoons to end up with. As for season four, I'm not sure?So it never occurred to you that perhaps CBS ordered so many episodes for the fourth season because not only due to the show's success but because they wanted a new episode shown every day as was the norm back then? :roll:

I hear what you're saying about the positive aspects of the series being neglected, but keep in mind that the section of my post which you quoted is directed towards those who dislike the series.
Don't worry, my post wasn't directed squarely at you but rather a worrying thought that the FW series will only be remembered in years to come for it's merchandise and exposing the franchise all because the hardcore fans are embarrassed by it to not embrace the content of the series.

At least that's the impression I get on this forum... :(

[Leo656]

Lots of people are perfectly fine putting their kids' toys in a box once they get to a certain point, looking back on them fondly but not still engaging with them on the same level as they did when they were children, and they don't feel that they, as adults, still have to display the same reverence for something they liked when they were eight that they did back then.

It's okay to be objective and call things what they are. FW TMNT was by no means "high art"; in an era of cartoons as toy commercials, it was one of the better toy commercials and had a wee bit more substance than, say, Toxic Crusaders or whatnot. Sometimes it was clever, sometimes it was dreck.

It got a lot of people to like TMNT, sure. And a lot of us almost immediately wanted something with more substance. That should be okay. Speaking for myself, I fell into TMNT with the show, but if not for the Archie comics and the 1990 film, I wouldn't have stuck with it.

I must say, the vehement way that some grown-ups feel they have to defend the FW show is a bit disconcerting. There's plenty "wrong" with everything we liked back then, and when someone points it out, that shouldn't be a problem. TMNT wasn't perfect. Real Ghostbusters wasn't perfect. Masters of the Universe wasn't perfect. It's okay for people to admit it.

Unless that person hasn't moved on even a little bit in 25 years, which would be... something.

[Redeemer]

I think it generally receives a high amount of credit, and rightfully so.

You can love it or hate it, but even if you hate it, you must acknowledge two major things it has done:

- Introduced mass audiences to the TMNT and served as the main gateway to other, arguably superior, versions of the TMNT.
Some of us may have never found the Mirage books without the popularity of the cartoon.

- Extended the life of the entire franchise, enabling further possibilities for the brand.
Like an auteur director who supports his passion projects by directing a summer blockbuster, the pop-culture influence of the old toon has been a major propellant for the franchise to this day. We may still receive dividends from this, if the franchise ever decides to sit up straight and deliver the kick-ass material we all know it is capable of. The fact that there is a chance, however slim, is due to the success of the cartoon.

That said, I can imagine the perspective that the show has been nothing but detrimental to the franchise in general, given that it is a drastic change in tone from the source material which highly divides the fan-base and warps the general perception of the franchise in the public eye.
But to that, I'd say the source material is always there to be enjoyed. I'd also say that Mirage studios had a hell of a run, and also likely benefited from the success of the cartoon.
I don't think the cartoon ever truly got in Mirage's way, and I don't strongly believe the franchise would have any stronger a chance of existing in any, possibly faithful, adaption today, had the cartoon not existed.

I think this post sums it up pretty well. I think the OT was essential for the franchise in terms of growing its popularity. My first exposure to TMNT was through the OT and then as I got older I discovered the original comics.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

Making a Donatello that can actually kick ass: FW Donatello is arguably the best iteration of the character.

Gonna have to disagree on this one. Mirage Donatello was just as strong as any of his brothers, and as strong (and in some cases stronger) than many other versions of the character

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Making a Donatello that can actually kick ass: FW Donatello is arguably the best iteration of the character. He's not only a nerd but also has a temper and can fight.

Donatello didn't kick much ass in combat. He would just be big in his mouth, only to have his bo stick broken within the very next moment, while Leonardo and Raphael had to handle the situation.

[Prowler]

Gonna have to disagree on this one. Mirage Donatello was just as strong as any of his brothers, and as strong (and in some cases stronger) than many other versions of the character
Well I was mostly thinking of the Dons I've seen on TV iterations. 2k3 Don was alright but not that great of a fighter. Nick Don, from the little I've seen of him was basically him crushing on April in an awkward manner. And Corey Feldman's Donatello was annoying as hell.

Donatello didn't kick much ass in combat. He would just be big in his mouth, only to have his bo stick broken within the very next moment, while Leonardo and Raphael had to handle the situation.
I mean, none of the FW Turtles kicked much ass in most episodes. They beat their enemies by throwing pizzas in their faces or something like that.

Donatello has a fun short fight with Shredder in the first Howie episode, btw.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

They beat their enemies by throwing pizzas in their faces or something like that.

Donatello has a fun short fight with Shredder in the first Howie episode, btw.

That was great because otherwise, seasons 4–5 suffered the most from censors (when the TMNT peaked in popularity).

[pferreira]

Lots of people are perfectly fine putting their kids' toys in a box once they get to a certain point, looking back on them fondly but not still engaging with them on the same level as they did when they were children, and they don't feel that they, as adults, still have to display the same reverence for something they liked when they were eight that they did back then.I'm finding the show is a lot better than I remember actually. But I'm happy to defend it as it's highly underrated creatively. I would definitely seethe show as B-tier quality which ain't bad considering most 80s cartoons were C-tier. I just hate people using the FW series as a toy commercial when animated series today are toy commercials. The last two TMNT series were toy commercials. The FW series was no different however it wasn';t nowhere near as bad as Transformers, something people like neatoman cannot comprehend because they weren't born and do not have the historical knowledge and context. :ohwell:

Donatello didn't kick much ass in combat. He would just be big in his mouth, only to have his bo stick broken within the very next moment, while Leonardo and Raphael had to handle the situation.The genius of Barry Gordon's interpretation was he brought a geeky snobbish frustration and overconfidence as well as sarcasm to the role. His Donnie is the most memorable by default because he stood out more. In comparison 2003 and PD Donnie are wooden geek stereotypes.

[Leo656]

Well, I agree that all cartoons are to some degree toy commercials. I personally have never had any problem with that. I love toys, so yeah, sell me f*cking toys, cartoon shows. I ain't mad at ya.

I just find it rather silly when people try way too hard looking for depth in this or any show that isn't there by design. Anyone watching FW TMNT for the first time as an adult sees it exactly for what it is, while people who grew up with it subscribe all sorts of undue reverence and imaginary "depth" towards and upon it, whether it's earned or not. Is it a terrible, worthless show? No. But is it as good as most people remember? Not by half.

I mean, we've all done it. I grew up revering Thundercats, and I still love it to a certain degree, but man, Lion-O is a f*cking wimp and the plot of almost every single episode is him getting in over his head and crying for help until everyone else shows up and saves him. His catchphrase should have been "Thundercats, HELP!" instead of "Thundercats, HO!", because he was a goddamn bitch. I still like the show, and as a kid it was one of my very favorites, but I also can acknowledge when things haven't aged well, or weren't all that great in the first place.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Well, I agree that all cartoons are to some degree toy commercials. I personally have never had any problem with that. I love toys, so yeah, sell me f*cking toys, cartoon shows. I ain't mad at ya.

I just find it rather silly when people try way too hard looking for depth in this or any show that isn't there by design. Anyone watching FW TMNT for the first time as an adult sees it exactly for what it is, while people who grew up with it subscribe all sorts of undue reverence and imaginary "depth" towards and upon it, whether it's earned or not. Is it a terrible, worthless show? No. But is it as good as most people remember? Not by half.

I mean, we've all done it. I grew up revering Thundercats, and I still love it to a certain degree, but man, Lion-O is a f*cking wimp and the plot of almost every single episode is him getting in over his head and crying for help until everyone else shows up and saves him. His catchphrase should have been "Thundercats, HELP!" instead of "Thundercats, HO!", because he was a goddamn bitch. I still like the show, and as a kid it was one of my very favorites, but I also can acknowledge when things haven't aged well, or weren't all that great in the first place.

If you ask for depth, don't watch or read children's cartoons and comics (which after all is what everything TMNT-related is except Mirage-Image).

[Wesley]

Well, I agree that all cartoons are to some degree toy commercials. I personally have never had any problem with that. I love toys, so yeah, sell me f*cking toys, cartoon shows. I ain't mad at ya.

I just find it rather silly when people try way too hard looking for depth in this or any show that isn't there by design. Anyone watching FW TMNT for the first time as an adult sees it exactly for what it is, while people who grew up with it subscribe all sorts of undue reverence and imaginary "depth" towards and upon it, whether it's earned or not. Is it a terrible, worthless show? No. But is it as good as most people remember? Not by half.

I mean, we've all done it. I grew up revering Thundercats, and I still love it to a certain degree, but man, Lion-O is a f*cking wimp and the plot of almost every single episode is him getting in over his head and crying for help until everyone else shows up and saves him. His catchphrase should have been "Thundercats, HELP!" instead of "Thundercats, HO!", because he was a goddamn bitch. I still like the show, and as a kid it was one of my very favorites, but I also can acknowledge when things haven't aged well, or weren't all that great in the first place.

Agreed. I never watched Thundercats, but the Fred Wolf toon was one of my favourite shows growing up. Was the best show on the Den (Irish children’s tv strand) imo. I still like it, but I can acknowledge too that a lot of it hasn’t aged well, even though some of the humour went over my head as a kid.

I never watched Saved by the Bell when I was younger. I only watched it for the first time as an adult a few years ago and didn’t think much of it, so I might have had an similar experience with the TMNT 1987 if I never watched it as a kid.

[Xav]

Making The Shredder into a reoccurring threat opposed to first threat.Shredder had already returned in the Mirage comics by the time the FW series aired.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

The FW series made him into one of the core villains of the TMNT property.

It also created the concept that Baxter Stockman must always be mutated, mutilated or stuck somewhere.

[MikeandRaph87]

Shredder had already returned in the Mirage comics by the time the FW series aired.
April 1987 while the series premiered in December. I do wonder though if using Shredder in the five part series is what encouraged his return in #10 as it would have been in development.

It also created the concept that Baxter Stockman must always be mutated, mutilated or stuck somewhere.
Baxter Stockman MIGHT have broke free of it with IDW, as the Batman crossovers don't count.

[Voltron]

I'd give credit for expanding the mythos and cementing the Turtles as a cultural mainstay. It was the FW series that launched the TMNT into the limelight. A large chunk of what we get today is because the original cartoon became so popular.

I think the fact that the we're discussing this on a website called The Technodrome with an image from the FW series on the logo is testament to the impact this show had.

_________________________________

The toys were awesome, too. I remember getting the Turtle Blimp and the Party Wagon for Christmas. Those things were AWESOME. The action figures looked fantastic as well. I still have fond memories of them to this day.

I don't really buy toys anymore, but the closest I've ever come is a tie between the FW reissues, the NECA movie figures, and those awesome one's straight out of the comics.

_________________________________

It also bonds people. I remember playing Ninja Turtles every day for years with my friends. We would argue over who got to be which turtle. We would have to use our imaginations to create the weapons out of sticks and other doodads. I still imagine doing karate moves when I think no one's looking.

I think the FW series, for as corny as it is, deserves a LOT of credit for giving us something to talk about.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

April 1987 while the series premiered in December. I do wonder though if using Shredder in the five part series is what encouraged his return in #10 as it would have been in development.


Baxter Stockman MIGHT have broke free of it with IDW, as the Batman crossovers don't count.

I hope so. Reusing a Human and deadly Baxter Stockman with cool deadly plots is so much better than all Mad Scientist of the Week episodes (like Filo Sopho and Lloyd Cycloid).

[MikeandRaph87]

I hope so. Reusing a Human and deadly Baxter Stockman with cool deadly plots is so much better than all Mad Scientist of the Week episodes (like Filo Sopho and Lloyd Cycloid).

We did not need all the different mad scientist and mob heads. It would have benefited by reusing the same ones building up threats. For example Big Louie could have overtaken Don Turteli's turf because his methods were outdated and seen the two of them as rival mobs like a Godfather type and a guy living up to a family's criminal legacy and needing to update his methods or else be swallowed.

Mad scientist? Not much to speak of. Sofo appeared twice, the others once? Mad scientist were more of a seasons 4 to 6 thing. I can understand the need for a reoccurring one, but outside of Baxter not one truly sticks out especially as a threat. That being said I can understand demutating Baxter. The 2012 cartoon did,but he never appeared again after that. I feel like it would reform him,but you never know.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

We did not need all the different mad scientist and mob heads.

I think we need at least:

Two extraterrestrial species (so they can fight space war with rayguns and spacecraft equipped with laser cannons and missiles against each other)

Two mob heads (so they can fight gangster conflicts against each other)

Two ninja clans from Japan (so they can be rivals)

Two mad scientists (so they can compete). Why not Baxter Stockman and his brother Barney?

Two New York City street gangs (so they can fight gang turf conflicts against each other)

[Wesley]

I'd give credit for expanding the mythos and cementing the Turtles as a cultural mainstay. It was the FW series that launched the TMNT into the limelight. A large chunk of what we get today is because the original cartoon became so popular.

I think the fact that the we're discussing this on a website called The Technodrome with an image from the FW series on the logo is testament to the impact this show had.

_________________________________

The toys were awesome, too. I remember getting the Turtle Blimp and the Party Wagon for Christmas. Those things were AWESOME. The action figures looked fantastic as well. I still have fond memories of them to this day.

I don't really buy toys anymore, but the closest I've ever come is a tie between the FW reissues, the NECA movie figures, and those awesome one's straight out of the comics.

_________________________________

It also bonds people. I remember playing Ninja Turtles every day for years with my friends. We would argue over who got to be which turtle. We would have to use our imaginations to create the weapons out of sticks and other doodads. I still imagine doing karate moves when I think no one's looking.

I think the FW series, for as corny as it is, deserves a LOT of credit for giving us something to talk about.

I agree with mostly everything Voltron said. If it wasn’t for the FW series, most of us probably would never have become big TMNT fans in the first place. Easy to forget with so many different versions of TMNT nowadays.

[Prowler]

I agree with mostly everything Voltron said. If it wasn’t for the FW series, most of us probably would never have become big TMNT fans in the first place. Easy to forget with so many different versions of TMNT nowadays.

Yeah. If it wasn't for that series, TMNT would be known to only a very small percentage of the world population.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Yeah. If it wasn't for that series, TMNT would be known to only a very small percentage of the world population.

It's true TMNT needed a more children- and family friendly cartoon and comic to become bigger. But could also have been another studio than Fred Wolf Studios, and another comic publushing company than Archie Comics

[MikeandRaph87]

I think we need at least:

Two mob heads (so they can fight gangster conflicts against each other)

Two ninja clans from Japan (so they can be rivals)

Two mad scientists (so they can compete). Why not Baxter Stockman and his brother Barney?

Two New York City street gangs (so they can fight gang turf conflicts against each other)

That is what I envisioned above with Big Louie above and perhaps Don Turteli. I don't know about the rule of two for the other groups though. One street gang featured is enough. Mad scientist? Baxter is all you need.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Multi-coloured bandanas. I don't know if it deserves any credit for that, it's just something we take for granted.

Splinter starting his life as Hamato Yoshi.

[MikeandRaph87]

Multi-coloured bandanas. I don't know if it deserves any credit for that, it's just something we take for granted.

That was actually the Playmates line. The 1987 cartoon just made it definitive and carried it into being every version staple.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

That was actually the Playmates line. The 1987 cartoon just made it definitive and carried it into being every version staple.

But the original action figures weren't released until June 1988.

https://ew.com/article/1990/03/30/teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-theatre-near-you/

[pferreira]

I just find it rather silly when people try way too hard looking for depth in this or any show that isn't there by design. I guess it's like all those Avengers Endgame theories. They're made by fans who are deeply interested in something therefore they put more thought into something than the writers intended. I never said the FW episodes have huge levels of complexity but the mixture of genres and elements allow it a depth some other cartoons from that period didn't have. Also on your point in the last post you made about putting the 'toys' away as an adult the Mirage TMNT comics was originally targeting teens so I guess that would mean I would have to let go of every iteration targeting that demographic as well, meaning TMNT as a whole.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I never watched Thundercats, but the Fred Wolf toon was one of my favourite shows growing up. Was the best show on the Den (Irish children’s tv strand) imo. I still like it, but I can acknowledge too that a lot of it hasn’t aged well, even though some of the humour went over my head as a kid. I can see problems with the Fred Wolf series but I will defend it in areas where I think it's good if not great.

I agree with mostly everything Voltron said. If it wasn’t for the FW series, most of us probably would never have become big TMNT fans in the first place.I mean I still stand by that it was one of the better written/better handled cartoon shows of the era. Fred Wolf says in the Turtles documentary back in 2014 that he wanted the series to be more than just a toy commercial and he succeeded if you compare the series to GI Joe and Transformers which were limited and controlled by the toy company. Fred Wolf Films were fairly free in this regard which is why there is that disconnect with the toys. The lack of reliance on the toys allows better writing. Certainly TMNT isn't the best written show of the 80s but it's nowhere near the worst. Not sure if people understand this. A lot of the comments in praise of the series are mostly surface level which as I said before is kind of a sad legacy to leave behind. :-?

[Leo656]

I guess it's like all those Avengers Endgame theories. They're made by fans who are deeply interested in something therefore they put more thought into something than the writers intended.

On this I completely agree. Much has been written and said by fanboys trying to make the movie's plot make sense, but it ultimately does not. The writers and directors completely disagree about the film's "rules" for time travel, and every explanation any of them tries to give completely contradicts the others, to the point where there really is NO point in trying to explain it beyond saying, "It's just a silly movie and it's all just for fun, just roll with it and try not to think."

In and of itself, that's fine, kinda. I hate movies like that, but I'm also often accused of thinking too much. But if something wants to be complete nonsense and people are in turn entertained by complete nonsense, that's entirely their prerogative. I simply find it silly when people go out of their way to try and reconcile the irreconcilable because it makes them feel smarter, or like the thing they like is so much more intelligent and important than it really is.

"Endgame" is one example, Fred Wolf TMNT is another. Some things are simply "Entertaining Nonsense" and that's that. No need for logical gymnastics to try and explain things that really weren't designed to be put under such scrutiny in the first place. Just have fun with it or don't. Simple.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I mean I still stand by that it was one of the better written/better handled cartoon shows of the era.

Which is the most well-written US-American cartoon between 1983 (Masters of the Universe launches a new era of cartoons) and 1992 (debut of the Animated Batman Series).

[Wesley]

I can see problems with the Fred Wolf series but I will defend it in areas where I think it's good if not great.

I mean I still stand by that it was one of the better written/better handled cartoon shows of the era. Fred Wolf says in the Turtles documentary back in 2014 that he wanted the series to be more than just a toy commercial and he succeeded if you compare the series to GI Joe and Transformers which were limited and controlled by the toy company. Fred Wolf Films were fairly free in this regard which is why there is that disconnect with the toys. The lack of reliance on the toys allows better writing. Certainly TMNT isn't the best written show of the 80s but it's nowhere near the worst. Not sure if people understand this. A lot of the comments in praise of the series are mostly surface level which as I said before is kind of a sad legacy to leave behind. :-?

I haven’t watched that Turtles documentary, but I agree with mostly everything you said. One other thing the FW series doesn’t get credit for is the fact that it got an ending and a good one to boot imo, considering a lot of shows never get closure.

I also think the FW series had interesting one-shot characters such as Shreeka and Chronos. Unpopular opinion: I liked Lord Dregg and he’s still one of my favourite TMNT villains. He was very cunning, especially in season 10 when he was one step ahead of the Turtles and Shredder/Krang most of the time. Him turning the city against the TMNT in season 9 did get old after a few episodes, though.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Unpopular opinion: I liked Lord Dregg and he’s still one of my favourite TMNT villains.

Is Dregg really that unpopular?

[Wesley]

Is Dregg really that unpopular?

I assumed he was at least at the time he was introduced.

[Prowler]

Dregg isn't that unpopular. He was voiced by the late great Tony Jay and even was brought back in the Nick toon, wasn't he?

Carter is a lot less popular. I feel like most TMNT fans dislike him or don't care about seeing him in any future TMNT versions. He seems to be a quite forgotten character for someone who was in like 13 episodes, more episodes than Leatherhead and Casey Jones

[FredWolfLeonardo]

He seems to be a quite forgotten character for someone who was in like 13 episodes, more episodes than Leatherhead and Casey Jones

Even more than Rat King who appeared in 10 episodes, and General Traag who appeared in 12.

And despite appearing less, the side characters during the main seasons (Baxter, Casey, Leatherhead, Rat King, Traag, and Slash), are far more memorable than the new characters introduced in Red Sky.

Aside from Dregg himself, everyone else I thought was pretty forgettable (Mung, Carter, Hi-Tech etc.)

[Prowler]

Even more than Rat King who appeared in 10 episodes, and General Traag who appeared in 12.

And despite appearing less, the side characters during the main seasons (Baxter, Casey, Leatherhead, Rat King, Traag, and Slash), are far more memorable than the new characters introduced in Red Sky.

Aside from Dregg himself, everyone else I thought was pretty forgettable (Mung, Carter, Hi-Tech etc.)

Tbh the Red Sky seasons were much less popular than the others. So a lot less people watched those episodes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Sky seasons didn't air in a lot of countries.

When people think of the FW series they think of its first 3 or 4 seasons only.

[Wesley]

Dregg isn't that unpopular. He was voiced by the late great Tony Jay and even was brought back in the Nick toon, wasn't he?

Carter is a lot less popular. I feel like most TMNT fans dislike him or don't care about seeing him in any future TMNT versions. He seems to be a quite forgotten character for someone who was in like 13 episodes, more episodes than Leatherhead and Casey Jones

Agreed. I’m indifferent to Carter myself.

Tbh the Red Sky seasons were much less popular than the others. So a lot less people watched those episodes. I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Sky seasons didn't air in a lot of countries.

When people think of the FW series they think of its first 3 or 4 seasons only.

True. I think Ireland was one of the few countries to air Red Sky, though I didn’t know seasons 9 and 10 even existed until mid 1998 (they were first shown on Rte Two along with Turtle Trek at that time).

[Prowler]

Agreed. I’m indifferent to Carter myself.



True. I think Ireland was one of the few countries to air Red Sky, even though seasons 9 and 10 even existed until mid 1998 (they were first shown on Rte Two along with Turtle Trek at that time).

I watched the reruns back in 2003 or 2004. But I'm not sure if they aired originally back in 1994-1996 or not. I was too young to remember the FW when it was still around. Luckily the FW series reran here often from the late 90s to the mid-2000s. And a few years ago the 2k3 series was rerunning on TV.

[Sobble]

America only got reruns for FW with seasons 8 9 and 10 from 1996-1997 according to wikapedia

[MikeandRaph87]

America only got reruns for FW with seasons 8 9 and 10 from 1996-1997 according to wikapedia

That would accurate. As of Labor Day 1997 it was pulled from both CBS and USA's Cartoon Express blovk. It has yet to reappear anywhere in the United States.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Sky seasons didn't air in a lot of countries.

TMNT had already been taken off air past-season 5 in Sweden. With a much smaller market, the franchise delined much earlier.

[pferreira]

On this I completely agree. Much has been written and said by fanboys trying to make the movie's plot make sense, but it ultimately does not. The writers and directors completely disagree about the film's "rules" for time travel, and every explanation any of them tries to give completely contradicts the others, to the point where there really is NO point in trying to explain it beyond saying, "It's just a silly movie and it's all just for fun, just roll with it and try not to think."Not quite. Endgame specifically states time travel seen in other TV and films is nonsense and explains why. The writers/directors themselves explained some of the plot inconsistencies so what you say doesn't add up here because they meant for it to make some kind of sense even when it doesn't.

I haven’t watched that Turtles documentary, but I agree with mostly everything you said. One other thing the FW series doesn’t get credit for is the fact that it got an ending and a good one to boot imo, considering a lot of shows never get closure.That is definitely one of the main differences between cartoon shows of the 80s and of the 90s/today. I think that's definitely one advantage today's cartoon shows have. I guess syndicated cartoons back in the 80s made renewal more confusing which is why many were left open. D & D even had a last episode written but it wasn't made due to the studio not wanting to put up the cost of finishing the series leaving Adam, Eric, Sheila and co still stuck in that land forever.

Carter is a lot less popular. I feel like most TMNT fans dislike him or don't care about seeing him in any future TMNT versions. According to David Wise Carter was a network idea, not his own idea. Probably one of the few times Wise hasn't taken credit for something. :lol:

Which is the most well-written US-American cartoon between 1983 (Masters of the Universe launches a new era of cartoons) and 1992 (debut of the Animated Batman Series).I can think of other examples like the early seasons of The Real Ghostbusters and most of DuckTales, two examples I'd put in my A tier category of quality. I'm sure there's more. FW TMNT was probably B-tier while most 80s cartoons (like most today) fit within C-tier or D-tier.

[Wesley]

The OT was maybe ahead of its time with the pop culture references. For example, the monster in Splinter No More had a HP Lovecraft-like vibe to it.

[Andrew NDB]

The OT was maybe ahead of its time with the pop culture references. For example, the monster in Splinter No More had a HP Lovecraft-like vibe to it.

How does that denote it being ahead of its time? Like, at all?

[oldmanwinters]

How does that denote it being ahead of its time? Like, at all?

I think he probably means the TMNT cartoon referenced it "before it was cool."

[pferreira]

How does that denote it being ahead of its time? Like, at all?Yeah I guess what he means is if it hasn't been repeated so much in other TV as to be in the public consciousness it's ahead of its time.